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.....We've all assumed that the Repair Tool, being Minmatar, should be tied to the Minmatar suit. However if you want to play with the lore a bit, it's actually really tied to all 4 races....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing

Pokey - question on the proposed global rep tool bonus. Do you see all four races getting the same bonus or perhaps a Min / Gal with a rep range bonus and Amarr / Cal with an effectiveness bonus? (or some mix)

Either way the global or racially tuned option would work pretty well.

Althought that would be interesting from a lore standpoint, it would probably be better to keep a some sort of role bonus like reps very similar. Maybe vary 1% either way, but making it a 'Logistics' Bonus would possibly be the correct option.

A global repair bonus for logis would definitely change a lot of what I'm discussing. I still like the idea of having two logis with a sidearm and two without, but that is because i've always really enjoying playing that kind of combat logi. Just enough equipment to support the squad with enough combat potency to keep up.

Any more smart ideas that we can slot in?

The common logi bonus using the rep tool probably would work better.

I actually think your idea of combat logi and support logi still works though. I run a Cal Logi as a full support logibro primarily and do see a lot of uses for the CQC sidearm...i'm just a little leery of giving up too much to simply secure a sidearm.

1. I think the Amarr always kind of slightly fall off the edge of the role and blur the line with another, the Amarr Logi with sidearm is a good example of this as it has a sidearm like an assault but (albeit limited) gear like a Logi. I don't think its is necessarily a bad thing, as it appeals to those who may want a little of both worlds and are ok with less of a focus.

Keep in mind that the defensive bonuses I've outlined are also being given to Assaults who DO have offensive bonuses, meaning that while a Logi can put up similar defenses, the Assault will still "Out-Slay" them, meaning it will always be the superior slayer to the logi.

2. The problem really boils down to...how small? The bonus needs to be small enough so that each logi still feels unique, but strong enough so that people actually care. Like +1% to repair tool rate per level is a small bonus, but someone who wants to run as a Pocket-Logi Scout isn't going to really be turned off by that lack of 1%/Lvl bonus. So how much is enough? 2%? 3%? At that point it's pushing that Flatlined-Logi levels and we find ourselves at the previous problem.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing

So we have the two options, the Flatline with a weak bonus across all equipment but threatens to make Logis feel too similar, and then the Specialist which gets two specialties, the primary being the full bonus and the secondary being either a full or reduced bonus.

We just covered the issues with the Flatline, so looking at the Specialist; Is it the concept of the dual bonus that you don't like? Or just the particular pairs that I whipped up? Also assume Amarr Logi gets to keep the sidearm.

Lol. The Amarr logi losing it's sidearm is an automatic deal breaker for me, so that is always assumed!

It's not that I have a problem with dual bonuses per se, it's just that all the prior suggestions along those lines made, as you correctly pointed out, rather arbitrary pairings. The problem with those becomes that everyone would want the rep tool and maybe to a lesser extent the uplink bonuses (if it worked properly, of course).

With the exception of the Caldari having a rep tool bonus making the least sense, it would be hard to justify why the Gallente should get it over the Amarr, and vice versa. The proposed change to giving everyone a rep tool bonus naturally eliminates that, but then you wonder if the Minmatar logi, being a little squishier than the others, takes a hit. (Not that I care what befalls the shoe shiners union, as Cubs used to say, but naturally we need to be a littleobjective here)

The other thing is, I'm trying to push what I'd like to conceptually see in Charlie, which, unlike Rattati's vision of it being primarily a buff to assaults, I'd like to see it as a revival of both medium frames relative to lights.

Especially since I keep seeing proposals ranging from everyone to Rattati to IWS to Aeon Amadi with the same tired "nerf logis to buff assaults" rhetoric that has been floating around here since at least 1.4... it's still a bad approach, and while it at least had a modicum of logic behind it then, it's totally irrelevant now since this is scout/sentinel 514 we are playing today. Even still. the answer is the same now as it was then: If you want to buff assaults, then buff the damn assaults!

Which, speaking about the defensive bonuses going to both medium frames, that's a good start but remember that logi's to a large extent (Amarr being an exception) still have greater slot counts and fitting resources than the corresponding assault suit and so we do still need to make the logi's less able (but not impossible, of course) to fit in a combat-focused way, either by:

- Forcing all equipment slots to be filled, which sounds good (and tbh is something I've been pushing for like 8 months now), but I think I saw that it may not be easy to hot-fix, and it's honestly probably not as effective as we think it would be because there's nothing to stop people from just dropping some compact (or even higher tier triage) hives in the slots.

- A more elegant but harder to balance solution is to decrease logi fitting power while simultaneously increasing the fitting bonus to equipment. Still looking for the (again, probably 8+ months old so it's hard to find) original post I made on that subject. If I can't find it I'll just run the math again, it's not like it was super complex to begin with.

Well one thing we should seriously look at is the possibility of a Shield Transporter Tool. I was talking to some dudes in CPM0 the other day to get a better feel for what is possible in terms of new asset creation, it basically boiled down to "As long as the behavior exists in the game's coding and it doesn't require new art assets, its possible that the item could be created. Now as I'm sure many of your are aware, when Logi LAVs existed, specifically the Charybdis, it had a Shield Transporter (Repair) Tool built in, and I think it even had the Blue Lightning instead of the Yellow for Armor.

Now if that code still exists, it may be possible to patch together a Shield Transporter Tool by using the behavior and effect the old Logi LAV had. If THAT is all possible, I might argue that certain Logi races should a bonus to to the Armor Repair Tool, and others to the Shield Transporter Tool.

Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others?

I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO

Ok... i totally take back that whole fomenting rebellion against your tyrannical reign as the tax hungry OSG CEO.

That is a very sharp find and frankly would be an elegant solution to quite a few things. It also strikes me that it's very similar to the EVE logi ship model as well.

so...

Min Logi - Current rep bonus & RE bonus

Amarr Logi - Rep bonus & droplink bonus

Gal Logi - Rep Bonus & Scan bonus

Cal Logi - Rep Bonus & Hive bonus

That's pretty legit.

Why would it be a deal breaker if the Amarr Logi were to be brought into line with the other Logi suits while getting a different though equivalent bonus to the others?

I am just curious, personally, I don't see it as being a real Logi, it is the "Not-Assault Assault" IMHO

That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus.

The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ?

That is a general problem with std suits in general imo. We really need to push CCP to buff the slot count on STD/ADV suits to help decrease the currently incredible combat potential differences that exists between the tiers of dropsuits.

[quote=Pokey Dravon][quote=Jaysyn Larrisen][quote=ZDub 303]


I would be curious to get both of your guy's opinion on this.

If we can run a shield transporter tool, then I could see a strong case for giving that to Caldari Logi suits. Then... for far more variety we go back to Logi Bro's suggestion and completely split this whole combat logi idea into separate types (i and II) of suits. We could make it look something like this perhaps (a modification of Pokey's spreadsheet):

I've copied what I think is Pokey's current line of racial bonuses, I don't agree with them as I still believe Logi's should focus on pure HP and while assault suits should prefer regen but I include them for completeness.

I still believe we need about a 50% reduction to the ISK cost of proto level equipment. With it costing so little, I think the Medic type suits lacking a bonus wouldn't matter as much, as they could easily fit proto nanohives which do quite well without a bonus imo.

As you can see, I'm trying to keep the number of bonuses a suit gets as low as possible to prevent buggy code and general implementation issues that we see a lot with suit bonuses.

Comments?

That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus.

The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ?

The addition of a sidearm doesn't automatically make a suit suddenly be an assaulting class. Its fine to slightly blur the lines between classes because it adds diversity, just as long as those lines are not crossed. Adding a slight combat advantage with the sidearm while removing an equipment doesn't cross the line but it does provide players who want to push the edge of the Logi role a bit more with a playstyle that suits them. As I've stated before, I find the mentality that "Logi's are medical support only" to be very narrow minded and innacurate. I often run an injector on my Commando, am I then a "Not-Logistics Logistics"? Am I doing Commando wrong because I use equipment? I don't think so.



I'm a little curious on your reasoning behind not liking the bonus? I'd also like to point out that I proposed Remotes as well as Proxy mines, making the Minmatar Logistics extremely good at indirect AV as well as battlefield control by allowing them to better lock down choke points. I'll add as a side note that I hate the "Ultimate Frisbee" playstyle with remotes, and would advocate some work to be done on them, specifically delay between deployment and detonation in order to make them more of a defensive tool and less of an offensive weapons against infantry.

The addition of a sidearm doesn't automatically make a suit suddenly be an assaulting class. Its fine to slightly blur the lines between classes because it adds diversity, just as long as those lines are not crossed. Adding a slight combat advantage with the sidearm while removing an equipment doesn't cross the line but it does provide players who want to push the edge of the Logi role a bit more with a playstyle that suits them. As I've stated before, I find the mentality that "Logi's are medical support only" to be very narrow minded and innacurate. I often run an injector on my Commando, am I then a "Not-Logistics Logistics"? Am I doing Commando wrong because I use equipment? I don't think so.

First... ref STD/ADV dropsuits. I would honestly look at just dropping ISK prices across the board and eliminate the current STD level. I don't see that happening anytime soon but I figured I would put it out there.

I will say that running full-on Logi can be a very shaky financial edge. One bad game and you hemorrhage ISK...it's more efficient to run HAVs than logi suits in a lot of cases and that's a problem. If we reduced proto equipment ISK cost with a flat 50% we would need to adjust ADV / STD / MLT as well. I'm not where I can get onto the Dust client to check prices but my gut tells me we would perhaps need to have more targeted or precise ISK reductions to bring things in line.

Ok, on to your comment on Type I and Type II suits. I was unfamiliar with idea so i'm coming into it cold and that makes it a nice mental exercise. I like the additional suit variety and if there were multiple specializations across the frames then I would be much more favorable to the concept. I don't think we can recommend splitting the logi class unless there are corresponding plans to do the same for other suit lines and that might be too big of a bite at the apple for CCP in regards to Dust at the moment.

Broadly - I'm a huge fan of having rep tool options that provide choices for us. I think you could even shape the bonuses quite a bit when you have those options. Of the top of my head I would look at something kinda like this:

Amarr / Gal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to armor rep and no modifiers to shield reps.

Minmatar - Moderate efficiency bonus both armor and shield reps and a high rep range bonus (similar to what they have now)

Cal - High efficiency / moderate range modifiers to shield rep and no modifiers to armor reps

Had you considered the Minnie bonus to be for the nanite injector, my reasoning being that as a race they are the ultimate recyclers so no clone goes to waste & is brought back to life to be put back to use.

Hawkings Greenback, yes some work on the remotes would need to happen. Primarily I see them being more as a push for the more indirect combat that the Minmatar and Logistics are known for, allowing them to set up minefields and traps to drastically reduce enemy movement and route them



Nanite injectors are not widely used, and I dont think a bonus to them would really encourage the use of that suit.

The following changes to the Logistics role have been proposed as part of Hotfix Charlie.



I would like to know the Logistic Community's thoughts on these proposed changes.

Most of us would likely agree with the WP for Injectors. Looking forward to seeing better quality needles on the field

The speed reduction is not something I personally support. The logistics role has changed a lot since "Scout 514" and reducing our speed will make it even harder for us to keep up with and support our squad/team. I would not like to see that any slower.

Increasing the equipment slots for Caldari and Amarr also makes sense now that scouts have two slots- it seems a bit odd that a logi and scout should have the same number of slots in the first place. Also the Cal never really got any special prize (like the side arm) for losing that extra slot. Looking forward to seeing some more Caldari Logi's if this change comes through.

Disappointed that the uplink bonus on the Amarr suit is still not fixed. Rather than playing around with the side-arm of the Amarr Logi - I would have liked to see this addressed first.

Overall, its super exciting that our role is getting some attention

Holy crap, it's a Checkmate sighting!


Anyway, I found it. Actually only about 6 months old, it was an interesting read going back through those old threads from pre 1.7 to 1.8. A couple people pretty accurately predicted the rise of scouts and the death of medium frames, even before the final patch notes for 1.8.

So, the bottom line is this: If you are seriously that concerned that logi's are going to infringe on the assault role (while inexplicably ignoring the massive contribution 1.8-era scouts made to the death of the assault), just go forward with another CPU/PG decrease and simultaneously increase the fitting bonus to equipment.

Done properly, you should be able to make essentially the same exact support-oriented fitting you can now, but be very much hampered trying to make an offensively-minded logi fitting, as in the example I linked.

First off I have to say hello to Crazy Cat Lady... Its been a long time since Shadow Cavalry! Second I think the logi's we have now are a far cry from the killer bees we had for a while and a nerf to their speed is definitely not something that is needed. Slowing logis is only going to make their ability to support their team unnecessarily more difficult. Its about time logis get some attention that actually impacts their ability to support their teams. I do feel the cloak fitting bonus needs to go but that one is obvious.

GÖª Note that the scout only really has one equipment slot since using a scout and NOT equiping a cloak is just ignoring one of the the purposes of the scout. Not to mention not making use of its SCOUT BONUS , and you would be endangering yourself considering the significant EHP difference there is nowadays between a true scout ( not HP tanked ) and any other frame.

GÖª True i have a Scout/Logi fit that works pretty decent with uplinks/repair tool and needle, but besides the db and Scan precision im actually at a small disadvantage considering how strong AA is i cannot dodge perfectly and without cloak one doesnt last much. Plus, i missing important equipment Logi-Bonuses
Continue.

That seems a little better balanced. It encourages all logis to fit & use a rep tool while giving them a specific racial bonus.

The only thing I honestly don't like is the RE bonus for minmatar, what sort of bonus would you give ?