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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2254	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:37:00 - [1] - Quote As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.06.09 08:44:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. Less cpu on energizers and rechargers, especially complex Regulator buff by at least 70% Less depleted delays on caldari and minmatar suits, and less regukar delay, those 2 up for discussion. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 502	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:02:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. proto regulators should be around 75% or 80% (so they can stack shields with the shield recharge penalty holding no bearing) 1 thing that has always annoyed me iabout shields, is how little the shield rechargers add to your gross recharge rate in the end. Sums up to a wasted slot. The Energizers are much more what I expected the rechargers to be. Support Assault changes
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 316	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:10:00 - [4] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. Less cpu on energizers and rechargers, especially complex Regulator buff by at least 70% Less depleted delays on caldari and minmatar suits, and less regukar delay, those 2 up for discussion. do you know what increasing complex regulators to 30% even looks like? if you ran two of them your shield delay would be 2.39 seconds. anything higher and youre delay will be dipping under two seconds. a 40% regulator will have you just a tad over one second. thats stupid considering that you can get a shield recharge of 70 hp/s with 1 complex energizer and 1 complex recharger on the caldari assault suits. i suggest that adding the shield damage threshold that tanks use to dropsuits. nothing crazy, but if high enough it'd be possible to use long ranges to lower incoming damage to under the threshold. at this point, your shields recharge uninterrupted and you essentially take no damage. short range weapons like plasma rifles and combat rifle (outside of their optimal ranges) become useless at long range. then the two tanking styles become more clearly defined where armor should be taken out from long range and shields should be taken out at close range.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 316	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:12:00 - [5] - Quote Spartan MK420 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. proto regulators should be around 75% or 80% (so they can stack shields with the shield recharge penalty holding no bearing) 1 thing that has always annoyed me iabout shields, is how little the shield rechargers add to your gross recharge rate in the end. Sums up to a wasted slot. The Energizers are much more what I expected the rechargers to be. yea except energizers nerf you shield hp by a ton. you also cant have regulators that high. youd have normal shield delays thatd be less than 1 second lol
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3359	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:16:00 - [6] - Quote I think we can all agree enhanced need to be at 44 not 33. I just never run enhanced over running a basic unless there's absolutely nowhere else to use that pg/cpu. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5999	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:19:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. As has been previously discussed, I think the optimal levels for Regulators are: STD: 20% ENHANCED: 30% COMPLEX: 40% This gives a good power boost while covering some of the penalty that Shield Extenders provide, giving a lot of encouragement and incentive to use them over armor plates (that is, unless you intend to change the penalty). Shield Extenders themselves could probably use a little bit of a reduction in the PG/CPU (not much) in order to compensate for the fact that armor plating is just so darn easy to fit now (you get more benefit from Ferroscales at less CPU/PG cost atm). If at all possible, change the Shield Extenders to have a better progression. 33/44/66 is the common proposal, if I'm not mistaken. Don't really know enough about Rechargers/Energizers to comment. I'll let others weigh in on that. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:19:00 - [8] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. proto regulators should be around 75% or 80% (so they can stack shields with the shield recharge penalty holding no bearing) 1 thing that has always annoyed me iabout shields, is how little the shield rechargers add to your gross recharge rate in the end. Sums up to a wasted slot. The Energizers are much more what I expected the rechargers to be. yea except energizers nerf you shield hp by a ton. you also cant have regulators that high. youd have normal shield delays thatd be less than 1 second lol That would mean PURE shields would have use in pc, and people would stop using armor on shield suits. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 821	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:26:00 - [9] - Quote Reduce the cpu cost of rechargers by 25-45% minimal. Increase regulator by 5% all levels. Decrease delay of extenders by 50-75%. Increase rechargers rate to energizers (minus the penalty),and increase the energizers rate even higher...possibly 90% at Pro increase penalty by 1% per level. Shields cost too much for there to be a delay of greater than 1.5 seconds. Armor is favored because it's cheap and effective and lasts longer. Becoming a Min logi in 1.8 taught me all those harsh lessons,coming from Gal logi. The amount extenders give is pitiful compared to the delay,66 for less recharge in-fight time? or 100+ armor for 5% travel speed. Hmmm,choices,choices.
Spartan MK420 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 502	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:27:00 - [10] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. proto regulators should be around 75% or 80% (so they can stack shields with the shield recharge penalty holding no bearing) 1 thing that has always annoyed me iabout shields, is how little the shield rechargers add to your gross recharge rate in the end. Sums up to a wasted slot. The Energizers are much more what I expected the rechargers to be. yea except energizers nerf you shield hp by a ton. you also cant have regulators that high. youd have normal shield delays thatd be less than 1 second lol I don't do math :P. That's just my way of saying it needs buffed to be worthy of using a low slot. It's pretty much like how the armor rep was redundant for armor tankers, it just wasn't worth losing the extra hp from an extra plate, it just used up all your cpu for 7.5 hp/s when you're suit ran 600-700 armor. Support Assault changes

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2239	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:27:00 - [11] - Quote I agree with Kagehoshi, nothing to add on his view of shield tanking. PSN: ogamega Never f* with a Galdari.
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3360	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:34:00 - [12] - Quote I think instead of throwing out arbitrary numbers for the rechargers and regulators we need to theorycraft what it would mean and then contrast the theorycrafted fits stats vs the hybrid tank. The point needs to be that rechargers need to compete against the tank offered by an extender. Meaning 72 hp on a complex extender needs to be viably weighed against the rechargers value. Same with regulator's vs the kin kats or tank or reppers offered by low slots. I will theorycraft some fits and get back to you. CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
DAMIOS82 warravens Final Resolution. 125	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:35:00 - [13] - Quote Lower PG of complex shield mods or a skill with a better percentage to lower it. For instance i have my gunloggi, i have 1 complex CPU, 1 complex PG, 1 complex heavy shield booster, 1 complex Shield Hardeners and 1 advanced shield Extender. Why not complex well because dispite the fact that i also have my skills at level 5, with Optimization at 3 (which only effects cpu), i do not seem to be able to fit this freeking module. Even with my turret skills at 5 and Optimization at 3 it still won't fit. The remaining 2 lvls won't have much effect towards the pg it's only like a 2% increase which is not enough. So lower the PG on the module, it doesn't matter if i need lvl 5 with all skills, but i would like to fit my modules as i see fit. You know like before you's messed hav all up after 1.7. Same goes for armor tanking, only then reversed. There's no problem PG wise, but CPU wise o'boy. Despite skill levels and complex CPU. So i suggest decreasing the PG/CPU levels on modules or better yet giving a skill that does this. So that when i do have level 5 of everything whatever module i fit won't be to much of a problem. OW and before you say shield tanking meant for infantry. Well shield tanking is shield tanking.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 318	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:41:00 - [14] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. proto regulators should be around 75% or 80% (so they can stack shields with the shield recharge penalty holding no bearing) 1 thing that has always annoyed me iabout shields, is how little the shield rechargers add to your gross recharge rate in the end. Sums up to a wasted slot. The Energizers are much more what I expected the rechargers to be. yea except energizers nerf you shield hp by a ton. you also cant have regulators that high. youd have normal shield delays thatd be less than 1 second lol That would mean PURE shields would have use in pc, and people would stop using armor on shield suits. ok then, buff regulators in two separate parts. buff the "shield delay" to 30% and then the "depleted shield delay" to what ever we need to offset stacking shield extenders. but reducing the shield delay by 75% per module (not including stacking penalties) is insane
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 567	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:56:00 - [15] - Quote I see two issues: - There is no synergy between low- and high-slot modules for one tanking type. The only exception are regulators. I can't see how to fix this without redoing modules completely. - You generally have enough fitting resources to fit both a shield and an armor tank. (Thanks to basic armor plates, even after hotfix alpha.) Here's a proposal for a set of changes: 1. Make shield extender progression 44 -> 55 -> 66 hp and change fitting requirements accordingly. 2. Basic armor plates receive a further increase in fitting requirements. We need to arrive at a situation where you can't stack 3 shield extenders and 3 armor plates because you'd run out of resources. You should focus on your 3 shield extenders or 3 armor plates and try to increase their effectiveness with utility-modules in the remaining slots.
Joseph Ridgeson warravens Final Resolution. 1979	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:57:00 - [16] - Quote Most people will say that Complex Extenders are fairly decent in the amount of HP they give. However, the LUDICROUS scaling AND fitting cost is what makes them flat out worse than Plates. 22->33->66 makes Extenders "use Complex or do not bother." Basic and Advanced need to be made higher while Complex remains the same. The fitting cost is another issue that really should have been fixed from the beginning. 18/3, 36/6, and 54/11 means that a Plate is pretty much easier to fit across the board. Every Assault suit basically goes 5 CPU for 1 PG so something cost twice as much CPU and only saving 1 PG is, well, bloody terrible. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1596	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:02:00 - [17] - Quote Regulators are in a really comfortable place PG/CPU-wise, but Energizers, Rechargers & Extenders are all terrible. Energizer's CPU should scale about the same as the Rechargers do currently and Rechargers should be at about half their current CPU costs. Rechargers and energizers need a bigger bump. When you're a Minmatar assault and you ONLY have shields due to your 5/2 module loadout, waiting 5 seconds on your delay and then waiting another 10 for your shields to replenish is an eternity. I'm thinking 25/45/65 for Rechargers and 45/75/95 for Energizers Regulators should have a much higher percentage increase (more along the lines of 35/55/75) because getting your shields back in an intense firefight means the world when you shield tank and no logi in the world can help you with that. Extenders CPU/PG is kinda jacked up too. I'm thinking something along the lines of 15/1, 30/3, 50/5. Others have discussed the HP scaling in detail, so I'll leave it at that. ^My Shield Christmas Wish List. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1596	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:07:00 - [18] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: duster 35000 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Spartan MK420 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. proto regulators should be around 75% or 80% (so they can stack shields with the shield recharge penalty holding no bearing) 1 thing that has always annoyed me iabout shields, is how little the shield rechargers add to your gross recharge rate in the end. Sums up to a wasted slot. The Energizers are much more what I expected the rechargers to be. yea except energizers nerf you shield hp by a ton. you also cant have regulators that high. youd have normal shield delays thatd be less than 1 second lol That would mean PURE shields would have use in pc, and people would stop using armor on shield suits. ok then, buff regulators in two separate parts. buff the "shield delay" to 30% and then the "depleted shield delay" to what ever we need to offset stacking shield extenders. but reducing the shield delay by 75% per module (not including stacking penalties) is insane Having a shield delay at less than a second is fine, because he had to sacrifice a plate spot in order to run his shields well. The whole idea is to make shield mods good enough that you want to use them as opposed to stacking on more HP with armor. 75% reduction accomplishes this. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:23:00 - [19] - Quote FYI: Almost every type of tanking is completely broken The only ways tanking work are Armor buffer tanking and the Minmatar Logi+Focused Rep tool (the one with 100+ HP/sec) and Gal Sentinel combo. This reduces most incoming damage to a tankable level but still most of the time you win because you have a large enough buffer as your tank breaks when a second guy comes in. Passive Shield tanking: Does not work because we have a delay (why?) Active shield/armor tanking: No active mods Shield buffer tanking: Does not work because of low HP increase (tbh it-¦s not very effective in EVE likewise) Speed tanking: Barely works on scouts (damage should be reduced with higher speeds) Signature tanking: Nope because of signature is not involved when calculating damage Another thing is that the DPSs of all weapons exceed any tanking ability. Let-¦s take your proposed rifle changes: Even the weapon with the lowest DPS has 361 (RR) which is with a fully skilled Gal Sentinel 306 DPS. Assume every second shot hits he still does 153 DPS. A Minmatar logi can repair up to 126 DPS so your tank is still broken. The only way you survive is because you have a lot of hp and thus survive until he has to reload and you have a HMG with a lot of ammo. So you can kill him before he can kill you. To get to the topic(finally): As I propose you won-¦t add active mods or shield transporters in near future the best way to improve shield tanking is by improving passive shield tanking. Remove the shield recharge delay, shields should repair all the time Shield recharge rates should be like in EVE, fluent It should take a certain time to fully repair your shields, if you add extenders it still takes the same time -> better recharge rates The recharge rates should be better the closer you get to an empty shield The recharge rates would require a bit of tuning of course https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_Shield_Tanking And most important: Reduce DPS! DPS should be at a sustainable level so you really can tank at least one enemy or maybe even two-three in a sentinel A DPS reduction by 75% for example would be fine. Damage dealing classes like Assaults should get a decent DPS bonus then so they would be able to break a tank quite easy. It would also differentiate them from other classes. First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3360	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:32:00 - [20] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I see two issues: - There is no synergy between low- and high-slot modules for one tanking type. The only exception are regulators. I can't see how to fix this without redoing modules completely. - You generally have enough fitting resources to fit both a shield and an armor tank. (Thanks to basic armor plates, even after hotfix alpha.) Here's a proposal for a set of changes: 1. Make shield extender progression 44 -> 55 -> 66 hp and change fitting requirements accordingly. 2. Basic armor plates receive a further increase in fitting requirements. We need to arrive at a situation where you can't stack 3 shield extenders and 3 armor plates because you'd run out of resources. You should focus on your 3 shield extenders or 3 armor plates and try to increase their effectiveness with utility-modules in the remaining slots. I foresee a problem with this. Why not run 3 basic extenders and use the massive savings in CPU/PG to ovecome the gap you made. With maxed shield extension you'd get 48.4 shields with a basic. that's 66.6% of the ehp of a complex...with only like 1/3 the cpu/pg cost. You'd save a metric ton of cpu/pg which could be used for increasing more EHP from plates....that extra cpu/pg you would have increaed in your scenario doesn't fix the problem CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought

Zatara Rought General Tso's Alliance 3360	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:50:00 - [21] - Quote Can we have an honest discussion about making reppers a high slot as well? If we're going to buff shields into viability I think we need to give armor tankers an armor tank module in the highs to compete with hybrid tanking. The easiest way to do this is by making hybrid tanking compete with the opportunity with damage mods (buff damage to 7.5% at proto please??) or alternatively, either reppers if it's easy, or a new module if it's feasible and it's what the people want. The reason people hybrid tank more than ever is the motivation for that 1v1 engagement and the critical seconds thereafter. A large problem of the current meta of hybrid tanking is that hybrid tanking the most ehp, outside of heavies, swarmers, and commando's, the sacrifice in tank vs damage mods isn't perceived as viable. So with hybrid tanking making the most sense (taking into account tanked scouts vs scouts who sacrifice to be double or unscannable) we need to rethink incentive when it comes to specializing in one tank. What if suits of different races polarized their respective suits viability and incentive to dual tank? This is a tangent for another conversation perhaps. goes back to theorycraft fits CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1 Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Phoenix 85 Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 121	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:04:00 - [22] - Quote Min needs a shorter recharge delay than caldari. EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT PC VS CONSOLE
Floyd20 Azizora L.O.T.I.S. 50	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:15:00 - [23] - Quote extenders hp/cpu/pg/pen 22/18/3/3 33/36/6/4 66/54/11/7 currently complex is so much better, that fitting 1 over 2 enhanced saves cpu, pg, less penalty, same hp, less cost. the difference is so bad i can fit a basic in that cpu gap, and need only 2 more pg, and get 23.2 extra shield for the trouble. cpu needs to be less linear, pg needs to drop, enhanced needs more hp, pen needs slight adjustment. proposed figures hp/cpu/pg/pen 25/20/2/2 42/35/5/3.5 66(70?)/58/8(9)/6 shield has always been described as cpu heavy, yet complex extenders used 1 less pg for half the hp gain. these numbers mean a caldari suit running 3 of them(will be using current cal assault as basis form this point forward) gets same hp gain( 217.8), uses 174 cpu(12 more), but saves 9 pg(rr and magsec is happy), as well as slightly better shield recharge times. personally i like the idea of adding a module similar to what energizers does for rechargers. something like a heavy extender. cost more cpu, more pg, gives more shield, but hurts recharge times more(talking 10% or more, forcing regulators to get base times) rechargers energizers increase/cpu/pg increase/cpu/pg/pen 15/30/0 25/40/0/2% an extra 10% recharge(3 on cal assault) for 10 cpu and 2% less shield(base only? 25/60/0 45/75/0/4% an extra 20% recharge(6 on cal assault) for 15cpu and 4% less shield(base only?) 42/90/0 60/96/0/6% an extra 18% recharge(5.5 cal assault) for 6cpu? and 6% less shield(base only?) considering cal assault maxs at 392 cpu, i wonder why rechargers are little used. complex gives a bonus 14 shield per second. Not bad, but worth just under 25% of your cpu? more so when for an extra 6 cpu i can gain an extra 6 shield per second for 15 total hp. most people wont fit more then 2 unless experimenting, but stacking penalties tend to slow them down, plus fitting 4 on a cal assault means no cpu left. proposed figures rechargers energizers increase/cpu/pg increase/cpu/pg/pen 20/25/0 30/35/1/3 32/40/0 45/65/1/5 54/72/0 65/85/1/7 improved rechargers for less cpu(may need adjusting), energizers give small improvments, little cpu exchanged for 1pg each. Regulators increase/cpu/pg 10/11/1 20/24/2 25/35/3 these ain't in a bad place, 1 complex reduces 5s wait to 3.6, 2 drops to 2.7. maybe small increase (maxing out at 30%), with a little more cpu cost to match? cal assault fitting 3 shield extenders 174 cpu 24 pg 217.8hp plus 262.5(maxed) gives 480.3 hp, recharge time drops to about 7.2 seconds (174/24) 1 complex recharger 54% plus skill bonus 15% (8.3) 62.8% about 48 shield recharge per second (72/0) energizer instead gives 65% plus skill bonus 15%(9.75) 75.25% 22.8 recharge per second(rough) at cost of about 18 shield (85/1) 2 regulators reduce time to 2.76 and 4.06 seconds (70/6) total cost 174+142= 316cpu or 316+13=329cpu and 30/31 pg currently costs 322/328cpu and 39pg
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1434	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:27:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. Would changing static recharge HP per second to time till fully recharged be gamechanging? In the same way EvE handles Shields that instead of saying you will recharge at x amount of hp per second it just says that the shield will recharge in x amount of seconds. I am planning to give some extensive feedback on this but don't want to go through the motions if it's too game changing. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:36:00 - [25] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. Would changing static recharge HP per second to time till fully recharged be gamechanging? In the same way EvE handles Shields that instead of saying you will recharge at x amount of hp per second it just says that the shield will recharge in x amount of seconds. I am planning to give some extensive feedback on this but don't want to go through the motions if it's too game changing. The whole tanking system should be like in EVE so it has to be game changing! First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 243	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:37:00 - [26] - Quote I was thinking the following: Shield Extenders. As of now they are STD 22hp with a 3% penalty to depleted recharge, 33 with a 4% penalty at ADV, and 66hp with a 7% penalty at PRO. Back then Shields were powerful now armor and now hybrid. My proposal here is to decrease the penalty applied to the extenders. Sure armor gets a penalty to movement speed and cannot naturally repair on their own. But keep in mind that nanohives, repair modules, and repair tools helps them dearly. Also keep in mind it is easier to fit armor plates than it is to fit shield extenders. Make the penalty 2,3,5 instead of 3,4,7. The health can also go 33, 55, 77 but that is debatable. Shield rechargers. They are fine Shield regulators. You need to make them worth the players time to run these modules. Really? a 10% STD, 20% ADV and 25% PRO? What is the point of running PRO if it only have a 5% difference to enhance and this is not counting the skill bonus. How about these numbers - 20%, 40%, 50% - 15%, 30%, 45% - or if you still want to keep 10% STD then 10%, 20%, 40%. This would make people want to run the PRO variant. my $0.02 on this subject thrown in.
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 491	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:44:00 - [27] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: The whole tanking system should be like in EVE so it has to be game changing! Dude, your EVE fanatism is getting obnoxious. This is a hotfix of an FPS game. It shouldn't be like EVE in the first place, due to its infantry combat, and it can't be, anyway, because the devs can't make major changes anymore. There is a point to be made about making vehicles more like EVE, but not for infantry. The engagement times are way too ridiculously short to make that a sane choice.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2404	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:48:00 - [28] - Quote I've wondered if you could put shield impairment damage on them. Most suits would start with amounts under or at the weaker damage stuff. Somehow, they'd be able to increase, maybe from regulators. They'd mostly be useful against damage at long range, most close range hits would still delay the recharge the same way.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 568	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:53:00 - [29] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: I see two issues: - There is no synergy between low- and high-slot modules for one tanking type. The only exception are regulators. I can't see how to fix this without redoing modules completely. - You generally have enough fitting resources to fit both a shield and an armor tank. (Thanks to basic armor plates, even after hotfix alpha.) Here's a proposal for a set of changes: 1. Make shield extender progression 44 -> 55 -> 66 hp and change fitting requirements accordingly. 2. Basic armor plates receive a further increase in fitting requirements. We need to arrive at a situation where you can't stack 3 shield extenders and 3 armor plates because you'd run out of resources. You should focus on your 3 shield extenders or 3 armor plates and try to increase their effectiveness with utility-modules in the remaining slots. I foresee a problem with this. Why not run 3 basic extenders and use the massive savings in CPU/PG to ovecome the gap you made. With maxed shield extension you'd get 48.4 shields with a basic. that's 66.6% of the ehp of a complex...with only like 1/3 the cpu/pg cost. You'd save a metric ton of cpu/pg which could be used for increasing more EHP from plates....that extra cpu/pg you would have increaed in your scenario doesn't fix the problem In my mind a STD shield extender would end up costing over 2 times the current fitting costs they currently do. That's what I was trying to imply with the "and change fitting requirements accordingly" bit, but I see it wasn't very visible. Under those circumstances an armor tanker probably wouldn't want to add those extenders due to the incurred fitting costs, if there was anything else that could be useful to him to fit in high-slots. And that's precisely the problem. There is nothing useful to equip in high-slots except shield modules. Every armor tanker will always want to fit as many shields as he can due to the lack of utility modules in the high-slots. The same is true for a shield tanker in regards to his low slots. That's because there is barely any synergy between low- and high-slots for the two tanks. In Eve Online every slot on your ship can be used to enhance the tank you've chosen, regardless of it being an active or passive shield or armor tank. In Dust all armor modules are low slot, all shield modules (except regulators) high slot. Of course you end up dual-tanking. Otherwise you'd basically leave slots unoccupied. I was considering suggesting to move shield rechargers and energizers to low slots and making armor repairers high slot modules. But the resulting fittings would look kind of boring, I think.
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 83	Posted - 2014.06.09 11:55:00 - [30] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: AmlSeb wrote: The whole tanking system should be like in EVE so it has to be game changing! Dude, your EVE fanatism is getting obnoxious. This is a hotfix of an FPS game. It shouldn't be like EVE in the first place, due to its infantry combat, and it can't be, anyway, because the devs can't make major changes anymore. There is a point to be made about making vehicles more like EVE, but not for infantry. The engagement times are way too ridiculously short to make that a sane choice. Though it's a game in the EVE universe so it all should be more influenced by EVE and not by CoD First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter

BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2761	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:00:00 - [31] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2102178 supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 320	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:12:00 - [32] - Quote well i'd like to know a few things: can shields have their delay removed completely? this would fix the complaints about shields not have a comparable equipment to supplement their defense (nanohive, repair tools) also, shield regulators have two modifiers. can they be changed independent of each other? something 100% reduction to shield delay and 30% reduction to depleted shield delay lets say the shield delay was set to zero by having regulators give a 100% reduction to shield delay, this would let shields recharge/repair every second the same way armor repair modules work. but we now we also increase the depleted shield delay on all suits to something crazy like 10 seconds. then we stack regulators to lower the depleted shield delay. this basically screws over anyone trying to dual tank for the record i still think current shield tanking is fine. but if we must play around with it, lets do something crazy lol
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10233	Posted - 2014.06.09 12:37:00 - [33] - Quote CPU upgrades already give insane amounts of CPU, there really is no need to buff them. Here are the numbers I would propose: Proto: 66 ADV: 44 STD: 33 Make sure that both shield extenders and armor plates are PG hungry, so that fitting both would be difficult at best. Regulators: Proto: 40% ADV: 30% STD: 20% Rechargers and Energizers: I would keep the numbers the same, MAYBE reduce CPU and increase PG slightly. Also, you should look at the penalty on energizers, as it only applies to the base HP of shields, so for everything except heavies it's a much better deal than rechargers. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 321	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:04:00 - [34] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CPU upgrades already give insane amounts of CPU, there really is no need to buff them. Here are the numbers I would propose: Extenders: HP \| Penalty Proto: 66 / 14% ADV: 44 / 10% STD: 33 / 6% I increased the penalties to make regulators much more attractive. If the delays are low in the first place, nothing you will do can make people use them. Make sure that both shield extenders and armor plates are PG hungry, so that fitting both would be difficult at best. Regulators: Proto: 40% ADV: 30% STD: 20% Current numbers are just too low to be worth it. Combined with the increased penalty, I believe regulator use will increase dramatically. Rechargers and Energizers: I would keep the numbers the same, MAYBE reduce CPU and increase PG slightly. Also, you should look at the penalty on energizers, as it only applies to the base HP of shields, so for everything except heavies it's a much better deal than rechargers. we could also buff the "shield delay" bonus only and nerf the "depleted shield delay" on the regulators. so you could do PRO: 40% shield delay and 20% depleted shield delay ADV: 30% shield delay and 15% depleted shield delay STD: 20% shield delay and 10% depleted shield delay
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 31	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:41:00 - [35] - Quote I'd like to see a more fundamental change in shield tanking...to where it works more like it does Space-Side.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 3310	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:43:00 - [36] - Quote I don't think extenders need a CPU cut, more a PG reduction and a boost on the lower levels. Maybe 11+ hp to basic and advanced. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars Top Men. 153	Posted - 2014.06.09 13:44:00 - [37] - Quote The CPU costs of shield rechargers and energizers are too high compared to the benefit they give. Please reduce the CPU costs by roughly 25% across all tiers and increase benefits by 12% across tiers. Or only reduce CPU costs of all rechargers and energizers by roughly 35%. Or only increase benefits of rechargers and energizers by roughly 35%. (CPU costs are so high I think this level of increase is justified) However dont go above an increase in benefits of 35% (36% increase/buff is overkill/over done). Reduce CPU costs of Shield Regulators by 5%. Adjust there Benefits to roughly this: basic: 18% (max shield regulator efficacy skills bonus gets it past 20%) advanced: 23% (max shield regulator efficacy skills bonus gets it past 25%) proto: 28% (max skills gets it past 30%) Regulators at basic level and adv level feel like they don't give enough benefit compared to there cost in fitting space. Shields just feel like they don't regenerate fast enough (when you can recharge to a shield HP of roughly 350 on any suit) (recharge delay/depleted delay + amount of seconds needed to fully recharge shields). (When you have regulators and extenders and rechargers equipped, or extenders and energizers equipped and regulators). Edit: Make shield extenders hp benefit progress with tier like this: basic: roughly 33 (no skills) advanced: roughly 45 (no skills) proto: 72 (max skills) (proto tier unchanged)
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 164	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:07:00 - [38] - Quote One of the huge reasons I didn't choose Cal Logi was the recharge times/rates were pathetic compared to Scout and Sentinel. If you aren't going to buff shield HP, which I think is a mistake since armor has the ability to constantly repair and gives more HP which means it is superior almost in both ways... Then you definitely have to give shield tankers an easier time on recharging, and that's all I can really say. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1102	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:59:00 - [39] - Quote I think most folks are isolating some the key points as far as the shield modules go. The regulator being a more direct competitor to the armor plates is one of the most important aspects of discouraging dual tanking. Some things to consider: 1) Think of the shield tank based suits (Cal / Min) and how you can perhaps look at adjusting their base stats. Some shield base suits (specifically Cal Logi and Cal Commando) have surprisingly high recharge times for slow footed shield tank suits...the CalSentinel is spot on) 2) I like the 20/30/40% model that several folks have touted. I actually prefer it to be somewhat higher but that's a great step. 3) Recharges and Energizers are solid but need their resource cost shaved a small amount. 4) I think the complex extenders are solid with 66 hp buffer...however, basic and enhanced simply aren't worth the CPU/PG for the buffer. 5) One note on recharge delay penalties vs regulators...i'm a little unclear on how the math will work out but it seems that you even with the proposed buff to regulators that running complex extenders can quickly negate any advantage you get from your regulator. Conceptually, I really don't like the idea of having to run a regulator just to get back to the base suit stats on recharge time. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2849	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:12:00 - [40] - Quote What would happen if we change the Shield Extender's shield deplete delay to just being shield delay. So that it effects both standard and depleted instead of just depleted delay. That would do a better job, IMO of pushing for more Shield Regulators At the same time Energizers and Rechargers needs to have competative CPU costs with Shield Extenders. 90/80 CPU is just way too costly for anyone to fit without sacrificing multiple modules/slots. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia

I-Shayz-I I-----I 3647	Posted - 2014.06.09 15:39:00 - [41] - Quote I know it's probabaly been said but let me say it one more time so that it gets changed already. Progression should be 22, 44, 66. NO ONE uses enhanced shield extenders right now. Why would you spend TWICE the fitting cost of a basic extender for only 11 more shield instead of 22? Yet complex gets 3 TIMES the amount of basic. Oh, and do something about energizers. Right now they make rechargers useless because the shield penalty affects the base shields of the suit instead of the total shields. I know you probably can't fix that, but at least mark it down for reference. As for a tweak, you could always inrease that penalty, but it would make them incredibly punishing for heavies... Regulators aren't used as much as I'd like them to be because of one major reason: Their effects aren't shown on the stats screen. You put on on and you really don't know how much it's effecting your suit. Also, decreasing your shield delay from 5 to 4 might seem like it's useful, but in actual practice a single armor plate or repair is actually 10x better. While buffing regulators in general would be a bad idea (getting shield delays down to almost 0 might be game breaking), I would suggest that they decrease shield delay while also lowering something else (as in, a tradeoff similar to plate speed penalty). OR, restrict suits to only be able to use one regulator, then buff regulators across the board. I think that most people want to use them, but feel that a single one won't do much, and that sacrificing all of their lows for a module with a stacking penalty that doesn't show them the stats would just be a stupid idea. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp Covert Intervention 541	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:11:00 - [42] - Quote I almost exclusively shield tank (former caldari logi, current minmatar logi). And I can tell you, running 1 regulator right now is worthless. Shield rechargers are sort of worthless, as the bonus they give is not worth it. -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando
Lynn Beck Heaven's Lost Property 1740	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:31:00 - [43] - Quote Make Energizers grant double the recharger's, and make the penalties MUCH higher: Proposal: Basic Recharger- 25% recharge, 40 CPU Enhanced- 40% recharge, 60 CPU Proto- 65% recharge, 80 CPU energizers: Basic- 50% recharge, 60 CPU enhanced- 80%, 80 CPU, Proto- 130%, 100 CPU extenders need a serious reduction in Pg, as fitting a decent tank requires multiple, and that uses up to 50% of your Pg. Basic- 33 HP, 15 or 20/1 cpu/pg Enhanced, 44 or 55 HP, 28 or 36/3 cpu/pg Prototype- 66 or 77 HP, 54 or 60/7 cpu/pg Regulators need to be very much worth it, compared to Armor Plates. Proposal: Basic, 20/25%, costs 10/1 Enhanced- 30/35%, costs 15/2 Prototype- 40/45%, costs 25/4, or 30/4. The idea behind this, is that a player sacrificin both of his slots can either mimic an armor tanker- achieving high HP, and near constant HP regen, or moderate tank with higher regen AND lower timers, depending on highslot layout, lowslots are now splittable between Kincats, Ferroscales, and Regulators. Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. General John Ripper Like ALL the things!!!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 326	Posted - 2014.06.09 17:59:00 - [44] - Quote if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases DeathwindRising wrote: TL:DR buff basic and enhanced shield regulators to 20% and 25% respectively , and maybe complex to 30%. OR keep them as is and lower their cpu costs here's a current shield tank build for a caldari assault ck.0 dropsuit. 2 complex shields extenders 1 complex shield energizer 1 complex shield recharger 2 complex shield regulators 1 complex cpu upgrade heres the shield stats from that: 392 shield hp (~400 shield hp) 71.98 hp/s shield recharge (this is way over 60 hp/s yay! \o/) 2.76 seconds shield delay (under 3 seconds. good) 5.3 seconds depleted shield delay (dont care about this number at all) you can swap the shield energizer for a shield recharger and 408 shield hp and 63.17 shield hp/s recharge if you REALLY think the extra 16 hp will save you lol. you want your delay under 3 seconds as the current target, but honestly you want it as close to zero as you can without gimping shield hp and recharge. 2.76 seconds is the best you can do without dropping the cpu upgrade for a third regulator (which would give you 2.33 seconds shield delay) the problem is that without that cpu upgrade you cant run the shield rechargers, so you have to downgrade to whatever will fit here's an example full fit: 2 complex shields extenders 1 complex shield recharger 1 enhanced shield recharger 3 complex shield regulators 1 standard level rifle you end up using 383/394 cpu and 33/79 pg. downgrading to an enhanced shield recharger brings you to 55.61 shield hp/s and gives a 2.33 seconds shield delay. not really worth it IMO because you can only use a standard weapon with no equipment or grenades. so... is shield tanking really as broken as everyone thinks, or do people just need to be educated on shield tanking? if you buff complex shield regulators to 40% youll get a shield delay of 1.3 seconds and a depleted shield delay of 4.26 seconds when using 3 complex shield regulators. thats beyond broken lmao buffing complex shield regulators to 30% would get you 1.94 seconds shield delay and a depleted shield delay of 4.84 seconds. thats the most extreme case scenario you could get using 3 complex shield regulators (its crazier on caldari logis which have 4 lows lol) idealy, most fits would only use two complex shield regulators (2.39 shield delay and 5.01 depleted shield delay). buffing complex shield regulators to 30% would be like running 3 complex shield regulators today. its a big buff but only if you know how to use it. we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%)
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6012	Posted - 2014.06.09 18:52:00 - [45] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%) I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place. That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel: -x2 Complex Shield Extenders -x2 Complex Shield Energizers -Complex Shield Regulator -M1 Locus Grenade -Boundless HMG - Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG. 725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds. If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds. The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel. This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5161	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:08:00 - [46] - Quote Okay, so I took Kagehoshi's shield changes and loaded them into a custom fitting tool I use when theory crafting. Using the Min Assault and Cal Assault, here are the fits I came up with. Please note, I changed their slot layouts to what they SHOULD be. 5/2 and 4/3 Anyways: Shield Tanked Min Assault Hm. With the Current changes, I can put 405 shields on it easily. 1 Complex at the New Changes puts him at a 3.36s Delay Not bad. Lets see if I can't make this guy a true hit and run character 2x Complex Regs and a Complex Speed gives me 8.77 Sprint and 2s delay. I'm not doing Depleted, as my old fitting tool doesn't multiply the Depleted correctly. At zero extra shielding, 2x regs gives you 2.08s delay and 2.77 depleted. Not bad for a shield tanker. This allows you to tank damage and recharge quickly, but ONLY if you stop taking fire. For CQC Combat, nothing will beat the armor tanker, as they will NEVER stop healing. Recharge rate seems a tad bit weak, but not bad. Complex puts you at almost 40hp/s. This means that you can take 300 points of damage (Most of your tank) and recover in around 9 seconds. I would like it to be at 50 hp/s. This cuts it down to around 8s to fully heal from that damage. Shield Tanked Cal Assault Now, this suit really starts to make shield tanking shine. With the extra high slots, you can actually start to tank effectively. Lets try 3x Shields, 2x Recharge, 1x Reg for now. Hm. 480 shields is fantastic for a shield tanker. You also get a WHOPPING 63 HP/s recharge. Delay goes down to 2.26s. This means that you can recover 400 damage in around 8.6s Lets really try to buff out that shield as a main tank. All shield modules. 3x shields 2x recharge and 2x reg Delay goes down to 1.73s This is actually great. It means that you can quickly regen damage if you use cover correctly. Lets say that get hit by 4 RR shots and take around 200 points of damage. Get behind cover, and after 2s you start regen at 60 hp/s. Within 6s, you recover fully. The armor tanker would take time. You recover at almost 3x the rate of the armor tanker, but it takes 2s to reach that time. Regen over time compared to the 2x Complex Rep Gal Assault 1s: 0 / 20 2s 0 / 40 3s 60 / 60 4s 120 / 90 5s 180 / 120 6s 240 / 150 You see the advantage here? Shield tanking now lets you recover from large amounts of damage faster! The armor tanker is able to quickly repair from multiple engagements faster Like lets say that the Both get hit from a 50dmg shot once after every 3 cycles. See how the Repair over time changes. The numbers will represent Delta Hp 1s: 0 / 20 2s 0 / 40 3s 60 / 60 Damage 4s 10 / 30 5s 10 / 50 6s 70 / 70 Damage 7s 20 / 40 8s 20 / 60 9s 80 / 80 See how they change? They might both repair the same overall amount after every 3s, but the Armor repair has a Higher Overall health over time, due to the fact that it constantly repairs. Why did I bring this up? Notice how the numbers line up. This is balance. Shield tankers will be able to survive at range and quickly regen, allowing for more hit and run tactics. The Armor tankers can quickly repair damage from constant battle, and have a better chance of surviving due to their higher HP total. Will Update more as I theorycraft more Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 326	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:29:00 - [47] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%) I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place. That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel: -x2 Complex Shield Extenders -x2 Complex Shield Energizers -Complex Shield Regulator -M1 Locus Grenade -Boundless HMG - Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG. 725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds. If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds. The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel. This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered. so why not dump the delay completely? keep the depleted delay though so that basically your only vulnerble if you completely lose your shields. which isnt hard to do with flux grenades and scrambler rifles
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6014	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:45:00 - [48] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%) I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place. That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel: -x2 Complex Shield Extenders -x2 Complex Shield Energizers -Complex Shield Regulator -M1 Locus Grenade -Boundless HMG - Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG. 725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds. If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds. The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel. This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered. so why not dump the delay completely? keep the depleted delay though so that basically your only vulnerble if you completely lose your shields. which isnt hard to do with flux grenades and scrambler rifles It's been considered but let's just take things one step at a time, yeah..? To reason to jump straight to over-powered if we can help it.. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 326	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:53:00 - [49] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%) I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place. That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel: -x2 Complex Shield Extenders -x2 Complex Shield Energizers -Complex Shield Regulator -M1 Locus Grenade -Boundless HMG - Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG. 725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds. If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds. The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel. This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered. so why not dump the delay completely? keep the depleted delay though so that basically your only vulnerble if you completely lose your shields. which isnt hard to do with flux grenades and scrambler rifles It's been considered but let's just take things one step at a time, yeah..? To reason to jump straight to over-powered if we can help it.. well thats my concern. everyone saying buff regs by 75% or more lol the delay would be like what? .5 seconds when you stack them? thats why im not sure what the goal is here. shield tanking works as INTENDED. the problem is people arent following that and getting frustrated. just buff the delay on regs by 100% and be done with it already. leave the depleted delay alone. boom brand new game changing shield tanking mechanic lol
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 555	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:06:00 - [50] - Quote I think you should follow what KAGEHOSHI describes here I have done some calculations on the numbers he provided for regulators and they seem to make sense. If you don't feel like reading it's not necessary, but trust me his numbers make sense from math side of things, assuming rechargers are in a good place (which I think they are). Math. So for my experiment here I work with Caldari Assault numbers assuming that they use 3 complex shield extenders (480 shield). So a basic shield enigizer gives 25% bonus. Normally with the shield HP of 480 it would take 16 seconds to recharge. With a basic enigizer, it's down to 12.8. This represents a percent change of 20%. I believe that a basic regulator should balance with recharger. Therefore, a basic regulator should give 20%. If you do the same math for complex modules you'll find a percent change of 37.5. So let's round up to 40% for complex regulators. Enhanced falls right in the middle with 30%. These numbers also fall in line with theorycrafting for potential viable shield tanked Caldari and minmatar suits. Also I think everyone agrees with him about shield extender tier progression. I see a ton of noise about what to do with shields; but a lot of people have done real work on this, opposed to randomly throwing numbers out there, and have arrived at what KAGEHOSHI describes. SMG Specialist

RAIDER 04 The Exemplars Top Men. 13	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:31:00 - [51] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: AmlSeb wrote: The whole tanking system should be like in EVE so it has to be game changing! Dude, your EVE fanatism is getting obnoxious. This is a hotfix of an FPS game. It shouldn't be like EVE in the first place, due to its infantry combat, and it can't be, anyway, because the devs can't make major changes anymore. There is a point to be made about making vehicles more like EVE, but not for infantry. The engagement times are way too ridiculously short to make that a sane choice. Do you understand the EVE system or do you wish to bash an Idea you don't understand just because it is in EVE? The Corporate Raiders PAC Endorses Free Tacos Nixon for CPM
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 165	Posted - 2014.06.09 22:12:00 - [52] - Quote Decreasing delay and increasing recharge would be where i would start. I say this because on some of my suits my armour reps faster than my shield when it is double the HP than them. I would suggest no delay unless all your shields are taken down, and if taken all the way down It it would be a 3 second delay. For the recharge i would increase it from the 20hp/s it is usually, to 50hp/s or a little lower like 30 or 40hp/s. I wouldn't change the extender values because with the new recharge their shields would pop back up fast enough that they could be ready for battle again within 1-7 seconds. This would make shields more able to compete with armour as armour has high HP to survive long intense combat and then taking a break to rep up and the shields enter short intense bursts of combat and then run to recharge and return to battle really fast. EDIT: These are changes to the base stats of shield tanking race's suits (Min and Cal) not to the modules. I think they are fine where they are. 44/4 in a BPO Scout (1.8) 40/5 in a Proto Assault (1.7) Open Beta Vet 23mil sp R.I.P Dust 514
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10254	Posted - 2014.06.09 23:46:00 - [53] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1280	Posted - 2014.06.10 00:18:00 - [54] - Quote Either buff extenders to 44/66/88, or reduce their pg/cpu , mainly their CPU. As it stands, they only have 1 less pg for double the CPU cost of plates. Either their health should be increased to reflect this cost, or the cost should be reduced to be in line with how little they give. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Talon Paetznick II Gallente Federation Resistance 7	Posted - 2014.06.10 01:28:00 - [55] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: FYI: Almost every type of tanking is completely broken The only ways tanking work are Armor buffer tanking and the Minmatar Logi+Focused Rep tool (the one with 100+ HP/sec) and Gal Sentinel combo. This reduces most incoming damage to a tankable level but still most of the time you win because you have a large enough buffer as your tank breaks when a second guy comes in. Passive Shield tanking: Does not work because we have a delay (why?) Active shield/armor tanking: No active mods Shield buffer tanking: Does not work because of low HP increase (tbh it-¦s not very effective in EVE likewise) Speed tanking: Barely works on scouts (damage should be reduced with higher speeds) Signature tanking: Nope because of signature is not involved when calculating damage Another thing is that the DPSs of all weapons exceed any tanking ability. Let-¦s take your proposed rifle changes: Even the weapon with the lowest DPS has 361 (RR) which is with a fully skilled Gal Sentinel 306 DPS. Assume every second shot hits he still does 153 DPS. A Minmatar logi can repair up to 126 DPS so your tank is still broken. The only way you survive is because you have a lot of hp and thus survive until he has to reload and you have a HMG with a lot of ammo. So you can kill him before he can kill you. To get to the topic(finally): As I propose you won-¦t add active mods or shield transporters in near future the best way to improve shield tanking is by improving passive shield tanking. Remove the shield recharge delay, shields should repair all the time Shield recharge rates should be like in EVE, fluent It should take a certain time to fully repair your shields, if you add extenders it still takes the same time -> better recharge rates The recharge rates should be better the closer you get to an empty shield The recharge rates would require a bit of tuning of course https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Passive_Shield_Tanking And most important: Reduce DPS! DPS should be at a sustainable level so you really can tank at least one enemy or maybe even two-three in a sentinel A DPS reduction by 75% for example would be fine. Damage dealing classes like Assaults should get a decent DPS bonus then so they would be able to break a tank quite easy. It would also differentiate them from other classes. senses OP waits for hotfix observes dev approaching with nerfhammer i do agree with lowering costs and possibly improving passive shielding though, just not so extremely getting killed by ion pistol = dropping the soap
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6020	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:30:00 - [56] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: well thats my concern. everyone saying buff regs by 75% or more lol the delay would be like what? .5 seconds when you stack them? thats why im not sure what the goal is here. shield tanking works as INTENDED. the problem is people arent following that and getting frustrated. just buff the delay on regs by 100% and be done with it already. leave the depleted delay alone. boom brand new game changing shield tanking mechanic lol Just so we're clear, 75% would bring a Complex Shield Regulator to about 43% in reduction. That's not much to ask for, honestly. I've previously stated in other discussions that percentage-based modules HAVE to be high because of their self-applied stacking penalty (5 + 50% = 7.5, a 2.5 increase) (7.5+50%=11.25, a 3.75 increase). You also have to consider that there are two shield modules which are self-defeating to the tank in the first place, with Extenders increasing the Shield Depleted Delay and Shield Energizers which reduce the total Shield HP. Both are designed so that shields don't get too crazy. Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. So they're not all that crazy, they just have fast regen - which is what they're designed for - and if it was working as intended there would have been SOMEONE that would have chanced upon the playstyle and used it properly, but there hasn't, in fact, most of the people who -DID- shield tank naturally bled over to Armor Tanking because it was more viable than shield tanking, which is why we're discussing bringing them back up in the first place. It's just important to remember that Shield Tanks have to make sacrifices to fit how they want. They have ultra fast regen at the expense of maximum HP, or they can have moderately high HP at the expense of longer regen. I don't think it's much to ask to just play with some numbers and dial it all back if it's too much. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 329	Posted - 2014.06.10 04:16:00 - [57] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: I think you should follow what KAGEHOSHI describes here I have done some calculations on the numbers he provided for regulators and they seem to make sense. If you don't feel like reading it's not necessary, but trust me his numbers make sense from math side of things, assuming rechargers are in a good place (which I think they are). Math. So for my experiment here I work with Caldari Assault numbers assuming that they use 3 complex shield extenders (480 shield). So a basic shield enigizer gives 25% bonus. Normally with the shield HP of 480 it would take 16 seconds to recharge. With a basic enigizer, it's down to 12.8. This represents a percent change of 20%. I believe that a basic regulator should balance with recharger. Therefore, a basic regulator should give 20%. If you do the same math for complex modules you'll find a percent change of 37.5. So let's round up to 40% for complex regulators. Enhanced falls right in the middle with 30%. These numbers also fall in line with theorycrafting for potential viable shield tanked Caldari and minmatar suits. Also I think everyone agrees with him about shield extender tier progression. I see a ton of noise about what to do with shields; but a lot of people have done real work on this, opposed to randomly throwing numbers out there, and have arrived at what KAGEHOSHI describes. did you read this part too at the bottom? KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Additional concern: The Caldari scout has unnecessarily and obscenely high shield recharge rate, combined with extremely short shield recharge delays. These have to be reduced, or else my proposed changes will lead to further imbalanced with the Caldari scout. the caldari scout has a 3 second normal delay, and a 4 second depleted delay. the caldari sentinel has a 4 second normal delay, and a 1 second depleted delay. and which one does he complain about? the scout with its lower hp, but higher regen and shorter delays. my point is that the depleted delay isnt really the big a deal compared to the normal delay. the other concern is the slot layout. the cal scout has more than one low slot to stack regulators with. the cal assault has 3 at proto level. we're looking at the return of shield tanking from chromosome when we high latency and bad hit detection. youll have dudes bunny hopping in combat just long enough to regen their shields in your face and kill you.
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1440	Posted - 2014.06.10 04:16:00 - [58] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: AmlSeb wrote: The whole tanking system should be like in EVE so it has to be game changing! Dude, your EVE fanatism is getting obnoxious. This is a hotfix of an FPS game. It shouldn't be like EVE in the first place, due to its infantry combat, and it can't be, anyway, because the devs can't make major changes anymore. There is a point to be made about making vehicles more like EVE, but not for infantry. The engagement times are way too ridiculously short to make that a sane choice. Well I actually disagree; EvE has a lot of factors that are perfect for Dust. The only reason people say things like this is because they either don't play eve or don't know how half the things work in eve. The assumption is that eve is a spaceship game and dust is a shooter and while that would be right the difference in both games is basically the exposition of the data. potato potahto Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 556	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:26:00 - [59] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. SMG Specialist
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2560	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:35:00 - [60] - Quote you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:57:00 - [61] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol We are tweaking values, are we not? Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 257	Posted - 2014.06.10 07:51:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a one time nanohive that recharges shield.
deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 600	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:02:00 - [63] - Quote I know this probably would not happen but Shield Extenders should be % based instead of HP based. This would allow for suits that are high in shields already to shield tank while high armor suits that start with a lower base shield would have more incentive to use more recharge or energizers assuming those slots are not taken by damage mods. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6028	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:42:00 - [64] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. yea but the caldari sentinel lacks mobility. so its balanced. And the Caldari Scout lacks HP O.o; what's your premise lol Mobility isn't the only way to balance things out. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 331	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:39:00 - [65] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. yea but the caldari sentinel lacks mobility. so its balanced. And the Caldari Scout lacks HP O.o; what's your premise lol Mobility isn't the only way to balance things out. im saying that because the sentinel cant get away he'll lose his shields from quick attacks from cover, since his actual delay isnt short enough. the scout doesnt have that problem. with two complex regulators its normal shield delay is 1.43 seconds. thats faster than most reloads and one complex shield recharge gives it 74.15 hp/s with 380 shield hp using three complex extenders. its also fitting a proto rail rifle. the limited hp pool is offset by high mobility, short normal delays, and the suits own native scan bonuses. it really depends on what you want to do with each suit. what you cant do however no matter how hard you try is win a straight up fight against a armor tanked suit using a shield tanked suit. you dont have the hp/damage ratio for that kind of fight
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2562	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:19:00 - [66] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol We are tweaking values, are we not? No. 80% is nowhere near a tweak. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2405	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:52:00 - [67] - Quote Other ideas: -Extenders increase base (or total) shield HP by a % in addition to what they add. -Could rechargers be completely changed to rep a single rep/absolute amount after a delay, but then not affect base recharge after that? So it'd be something like 50/75/100 per recharger?
Jacques Cayton II Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 833	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:18:00 - [68] - Quote Shield extenders need lower cpu/PG and enhanced need to be up to 44. ( I personally think that shield extenders need a slight hp increase since a basic plate has a ton more then a complex extender). Regulators are fine except complex needs to be brought up to 40 or 50 and with this change base enhanced off of the complex. Also lower the cpu/pg. Rechargers need to be brought up to energizer levels and energizers need to be brought more due to the damage to hp. Also cpu needs to be toned down also. Just my .02 isk We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:38:00 - [69] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2409	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:13:00 - [70] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. Technically, your bleeding body is like your hull. More people should be walking around with injectors picking people up. Since people don't consider injectors as important it isn't as much of a consideration.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 331	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:22:00 - [71] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. perhaps new damage mods that work only against shields or armor but with a higher damage bonus? especially since thats what they did already to the proficiency skills and this is all kinda off track, but what the melee damage mod included a bonus to movement speed? to offset the penalties from armor plates complex regulators with 40% to shield delay but 25% to depleted shield delay? honestly, why would you be letting your shields go to zero in the first place unless youre armor tanking?
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:55:00 - [72] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. perhaps new damage mods that work only against shields or armor but with a higher damage bonus? especially since thats what they did already to the proficiency skills and this is all kinda off track, but what the melee damage mod included a bonus to movement speed? to offset the penalties from armor plates complex regulators with 40% to shield delay but 25% to depleted shield delay? honestly, why would you be letting your shields go to zero in the first place unless youre armor tanking? Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:56:00 - [73] - Quote If PG upgrades got moved to high slots too that would be eternal bliss for me. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 94	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:59:00 - [74] - Quote small buff to rechargers, large decrease to cpu reqs all round, and regulators need to do the job of a logi for shields, otherwise the armour mods will be better for anyone in a squad with a logi bro.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 741	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:45:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. I mostly agree with KAGEHOSHI's plan, but here's what I would like. [Shield extenders] HP & depleted penalty STD:22 HP & 0% ADV:44 HP & 4% PRO:66 HP & 8% The progression between tiers is 22 HP with a 4% penalty and standard extenders would find more use as cheap shield HP without penalties. [Shield regulators] Decrease in shield recharge delays. STD15% ADV25% PRO35% Worth the fitting costs and not too strong. [Shield rechargers] Increase in recharge rate. STD15% ADV30% PRO45% Consistent 15% increase between tiers. [Shield energizers] Increase in recharge rate. STD25% ADV45% PRO65% Consistent 20% increase in shield recharge rate and penalty 2% increase between tiers. Here's a table for my shield regulator values (will have spreadsheets in a few days): Effects on Caldari assault to check usefulness (Shield regulation lv5) Recharge delays Default = 5s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________4.18s___3.56s___3.22s ADV___________3.63s___2.73s___2.30s PRO___________3.08s___2.01s___1.57s Depleted recharge delays Default = 6s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________5.01s___4.27s___3.87s ADV___________4.35s___3.28s___2.76s PRO___________3.69s___2.42s___1.89s MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 556	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:37:00 - [76] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. I fit a gallente on protofits with 500 armor and 200 shields with armor rep of 20 HP/s, two proto precision enhancers, proto weapon, advanced sidearm, and advanced nanohive. Please keep in mind how tough shield extenders are on PG. In our little comparison the gallente has 100 more HP and the Caldari has zero armor rep. I really think you are over estimating the cal assault in this case. If it's a long range encounter cal assault has advantage but if you met head to head, within the AR range the Caldari is done for. Furthermore armor is always repping, if your engagement lasts just 5 seconds (reasonable for two good players 1v1) then your 100 HP original advantage all the sudden becomes 200 HP advantage. SMG Specialist
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10267	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:52:00 - [77] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. I fit a gallente on protofits with 500 armor and 200 shields with armor rep of 20 HP/s, two proto precision enhancers, proto weapon, advanced sidearm, and advanced nanohive. Please keep in mind how tough shield extenders are on PG. In our little comparison the gallente has 100 more HP and the Caldari has zero armor rep. I really think you are over estimating the cal assault in this case. If it's a long range encounter cal assault has advantage but if you met head to head, within the AR range the Caldari is done for. Furthermore armor is always repping, if your engagement lasts just 5 seconds (reasonable for two good players 1v1) then your 100 HP original advantage all the sudden becomes 200 HP advantage. Edit : Oh and in a real fight, the gallente still holds and advantage to brawl with multiple enemies. Shield tankers get screwed really fast if they get caught with their pants down and can't break fire. Trust me it happens all the time. You do know that I'm comparing it to a suggestion and not current numbers? Your fit will be completely outdone by the suggestion I'm arguing against. I actually think that Prototype Gallente Assault = Prototype Caldari Assault, and that only STD and ADV needs some help. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 556	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:10:00 - [78] - Quote Yeah STD and advanced do. What suggestion? In the cal assault numbers I put up, the only thing that has changed is proto regulators to 40%. I'm just trying to have a little debate about whether that would be OP. I think not, clearly. SMG Specialist
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:20:00 - [79] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. I mostly agree with KAGEHOSHI's plan, but here's what I would like. [Shield extenders] HP & depleted penalty STD:22 HP & 0% ADV:44 HP & 4% PRO:66 HP & 8% The progression between tiers is 22 HP with a 4% penalty and standard extenders would find more use as cheap shield HP without penalties. [Shield regulators] Decrease in shield recharge delays. STD15% ADV25% PRO35% terrible and still underpowered Worth the fitting costs and not too strong. [Shield rechargers] Increase in recharge rate. STD15% ADV30% PRO45% fine Consistent 15% increase between tiers. [Shield energizers] Increase in recharge rate. STD25% ADV45% PRO65% change to 75% and we're good Consistent 20% increase in shield recharge rate and penalty 2% increase between tiers. Here's a table for my shield regulator values (will have spreadsheets in a few days): Effects on Caldari assault to check usefulness (Shield regulation lv5) Recharge delays Default = 5s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________4.18s___3.56s___3.22s ADV___________3.63s___2.73s___2.30s PRO___________3.08s___2.01s___1.57s Depleted recharge delays Default = 6s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________5.01s___4.27s___3.87s ADV___________4.35s___3.28s___2.76s PRO___________3.69s___2.42s___1.89s Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 833	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:26:00 - [80] - Quote Another possible tweak would be to have weapons' specialisation mean something. As all weapons currently stand,they all annihilate shields and armor. Make RRs 50%-60% vs shields and 93% armor (before specialisation). And make shotguns do 110% vs shield but 65% vs armor,scouts equipped with shotguns would then have to carry a weapon to compensate for its weakness instead of having a "i kill all in 3 shots" button. And do similar for all other weapons. This way shields can be competitive vs some weapons but weak vs others. And the same for armor. It would also mean your weapon choice counts,beyond "derp moar damage".

D3LTA iKidd'YuNOT D3LTA FORC3 C0VEN 2	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:33:00 - [81] - Quote We have a poor amount of cover available in most engagements. While away from cover we pretty much sustain constant fire which give our shield no time to even start healing. This coupled with the fact that you have alot less hp than the armor tankers makes us insta dead in seconds. Also even if we are lucky enough to get to cover... with the long wait to start recharging our shields the armor tankers always close the gap to finish us off while regenerating thier armor at the same time. I can see the model of the Caldari Sentinel being used more widely in Dust for shield tankers. But for it to work shield tankers a higher base to start from. But even then my Proto Caldari Sentinel dies far too quickly unless I am far away with cover and especially against other heavies.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1837	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:36:00 - [82] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol Actually, its about time we start migrating away from the ignorance that "tweak" must mean "small". This notion is arbitrary, misinformed, and if we categorically refuse to allow Rattati to adjust a value by more than 10% we're only going to shoot ourselves in the foot and slow down progress. In fact - when balancing a game system, one of the fastest methods of arriving at a proper value is to either double or halve it, observe, and either double again, or split the difference between the doubled/halved value and the original. A small series of doubling or halving a value (with observation in between) is actually one of most efficient ways to arrive at the proper number in the least amount of adjustments. Likewise, applying this methodology for every project is equally arbitrary. It at least illustrates that when an element of the game is dramatically underpowered or overpowered, tweaking by 5% or 10% only as a matter of dogma can actually interfere with a designers ability to quickly arrive at the best value, as they may end up performing twice the number of adjustments than if they had just been bold to begin with. We have a major advantage here guys - a rapid patch framework and CCP staff willing to adjust constantly until a system is polished. There's no need to be so ridiculously conservative that we fail to recognize that 5% or 10% just isn't going to cut it for a lot of adjustments that need to be made.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1838	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:46:00 - [83] - Quote D3LTA iKidd'YuNOT wrote: We have a poor amount of cover available in most engagements. While away from cover we pretty much sustain constant fire which give our shield no time to even start healing. This coupled with the fact that you have alot less hp than the armor tankers makes us insta dead in seconds. Also even if we are lucky enough to get to cover... with the long wait to start recharging our shields the armor tankers always close the gap to finish us off while regenerating thier armor at the same time. I can see the model of the Caldari Sentinel being used more widely in Dust for shield tankers. But for it to work shield tankers a higher base to start from. But even then my Proto Caldari Sentinel dies far too quickly unless I am far away with cover and especially against other heavies. I agree, and its why I'm rather bullish about quick recharge times on shield tanking setups. I see a lot of people nervous about several second recovery times, but realistically it just isn't that hard to finish off whatever armor is underneath once you've punched through (assuming we are willing to take on the fitting costs needed discourage dualtanking). I think its perfectly fine to expect players to adjust their play to compensate, and learn that when fighting a shield-tanking opponent the emphasis needs to be on controlling both accuracy and the pace you empty your clip and ensure you can finish a job you've started. For the same reason, I really think that unilaterally buffing extenders across the board is folly - there needs to be a balance to this quick recovery time, and keeping shield buffers to reasonable levels is necessary. If the map design were different, I'd feel different too of course. But there is still a lot of open ground , and I think its reasonable to shape shield tanking such that even short periods of broken line of sight can be valuable in self-defense against a superior-armored foe.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1839	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:01:00 - [84] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Shield extenders need lower cpu/PG and enhanced need to be up to 44. ( I personally think that shield extenders need a slight hp increase since a basic plate has a ton more then a complex extender). Regulators are fine except complex needs to be brought up to 40 or 50 and with this change base enhanced off of the complex. Also lower the cpu/pg. I'm very worried about lowering the fitting requirements, especially the powergrid on extenders. In fact, I'd argue the opposite instead. Granted, there's a lot of base fitting pools on the suits themselves that are still in need of adjustment (so I'm sure someone will point out how this breaks one fit or another) but I really think its about time we build more of a fitting bottleneck into both extenders and plates, as this is really the root cause of dualtanking. People brick because they can. Without making the system excessively complex with more penalties on all sorts of modules, one of the few ways we can really end bricktanking is by creating a bottleneck. Now especially since extenders are one of the few modules that takes up any powergrid at all, and they're the culprit when we're investigating extreme buffers, to me it makes the most sense to make their powergrid the value that competes directly with plating your suit as well. I'm sure I'll be crucified for suggesting this, but I really think that one of the best things we can do in revising tanking is to use the power of the fitting allowance to force more of a choice when deciding what approach to take when creating a fit.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2414	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:12:00 - [85] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: Shield extenders need lower cpu/PG and enhanced need to be up to 44. ( I personally think that shield extenders need a slight hp increase since a basic plate has a ton more then a complex extender). Regulators are fine except complex needs to be brought up to 40 or 50 and with this change base enhanced off of the complex. Also lower the cpu/pg. I'm very worried about lowering the fitting requirements, especially the powergrid on extenders. In fact, I'd argue the opposite instead. Granted, there's a lot of base fitting pools on the suits themselves that are still in need of adjustment (so I'm sure someone will point out how this breaks one fit or another) but I really think its about time we build more of a fitting bottleneck into both extenders and plates, as this is really the root cause of dualtanking. People brick because they can. Without making the system excessively complex with more penalties on all sorts of modules, one of the few ways we can really end bricktanking is by creating a bottleneck. Now especially since extenders are one of the few modules that takes up any powergrid at all, and they're the culprit when we're investigating extreme buffers, to me it makes the most sense to make their powergrid the value that competes directly with plating your suit as well. I'm sure I'll be crucified for suggesting this, but I really think that one of the best things we can do in revising tanking is to use the power of the fitting allowance to force more of a choice when deciding what approach to take when creating a fit. What do you think about, rather than adjusting PG on extenders, instead, adding a max PG penalty for them?
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 501	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:38:00 - [86] - Quote Meee One wrote: Another possible tweak would be to have weapons' specialisation mean something. As all weapons currently stand,they all annihilate shields and armor. Make RRs 50%-60% vs shields and 93% armor (before specialisation). And make shotguns do 110% vs shield but 65% vs armor,scouts equipped with shotguns would then have to carry a weapon to compensate for its weakness instead of having a "i kill all in 3 shots" button. And do similar for all other weapons. This way shields can be competitive vs some weapons but weak vs others. And the same for armor. It would also mean your weapon choice counts,beyond "derp moar damage". Or you can remove that variable and make the game easier to balance and encounters less random.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 258	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:45:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 258	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:48:00 - [88] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive You could shield tank with no rechargers standing in these like a armor plate tank with no reps in a armor rep nanohive.
Floyd20 Azizora L.O.T.I.S. 50	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:27:00 - [89] - Quote the big problem is trying not to make hybrid tanking better. armor tanks need something useful for high slots besides the massively nerfed damage mods and shield extenders
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1357	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:13:00 - [90] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive You could shield tank with no rechargers standing in these like a armor plate tank with no reps in a armor rep nanohive. And, most importantly, an armor tank could do the same, partially defeating the whole "make shields more viable against armor" since the recharged shield synergizes well with armor reps while the inverse is generally not the case. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2570	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:24:00 - [91] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol Actually, its about time we start migrating away from the ignorance that "tweak" must mean "small". This notion is arbitrary, misinformed, and if we categorically refuse to allow Rattati to adjust a value by more than 10% we're only going to shoot ourselves in the foot and slow down progress. In fact - when balancing a game system, one of the fastest methods of arriving at a proper value is to either double or halve it, observe, and either double again, or split the difference between the doubled/halved value and the original. A small series of doubling or halving a value (with observation in between) is actually one of most efficient ways to arrive at the proper number in the least amount of adjustments. Likewise, applying this methodology for every project is equally arbitrary. It at least illustrates that when an element of the game is dramatically underpowered or overpowered, tweaking by 5% or 10% only as a matter of dogma can actually interfere with a designers ability to quickly arrive at the best value, as they may end up performing twice the number of adjustments than if they had just been bold to begin with. We have a major advantage here guys - a rapid patch framework and CCP staff willing to adjust constantly until a system is polished. There's no need to be so ridiculously conservative that we fail to recognize that 5% or 10% just isn't going to cut it for a lot of adjustments that need to be made. That simply wastes time. Instead of just buffing to some random amount and not looking at the math behind it and hoping that it will work is just a bad idea. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 259	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:32:00 - [92] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive Armor Tank in this shield hive Mod would only increase His base recharge rate like a mod on a suit would do. This would help a shield tank Cal more than a Armor Gall shield recharge rate.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 259	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:36:00 - [93] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Luther Mandrix wrote: Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive You could shield tank with no rechargers standing in these like a armor plate tank with no reps in a armor rep nanohive. And, most importantly, an armor tank could do the same, partially defeating the whole "make shields more viable against armor" since the recharged shield synergizes well with armor reps while the inverse is generally not the case. The Sheild hive acts as a Module on your suit increasing the base rate like a recharger would. Shield Tank Race suits would be helped way more than an armor tank .But then again a Sheild tank suit can have its armor repaired by a repair hive.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1357	Posted - 2014.06.10 23:55:00 - [94] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Luther Mandrix wrote: You could shield tank with no rechargers standing in these like a armor plate tank with no reps in a armor rep nanohive. The Sheild hive acts as a Module on your suit increasing the base rate like a recharger would. Shield Tank Race suits would be helped way more than an armor tank .But then again a Sheild tank suit can have its armor repaired by a repair hive. And, most importantly, an armor tank could do the same, partially defeating the whole "make shields more viable against armor" since the recharged shield synergizes well with armor reps while the inverse is generally not the case. Botched the quotes a little. You also mentioned in your second post that it would bypass the shields cooldown and that's where the problem lies. To take armor damage your shields have to be down first, when a shield tank steps into a triage hive, the total amount of potential armor reps a triage hive could give you is limited by your armor buffer plus the amount of shield regeneration from shield hives if present. Remeber that repping armor before shields are breached will usually do nothing. Once your shields are depleted, you'd have a good chance of dying before getting even a single armor rep cycle off of a triage hive with todays average weapon DPS. Try a focused rep tool on a pure shield cal assault. You'll realize it does next to nothing because there's simply not enough buffer armor once shields are gone and he'll die pretty quickly. Even an additional shield rep soaking some, say 100 damage, will not give the armor reps enough time to significantly delay the inevitable if all you have is a 130hp buffer getting pounded by 300-400DPS. But if you were to use an armor tank plus shield hives, you'd get an instant surge of shield HP that will first slightly increase your effective shield buffer and then continue to soak armor damage taken until all armor is depleted. This makes armor last longer which, in turn, gives amor and shield reps more time to generate eve more HP. Yes it will probably be better for shield tanks than for armor ones in absolute terms but armor is still directly benefiting from shield reps while the same is not true for armor reps on shield tanks. You risk not buffing shields enough relative to armor if this module is too weak or make it paradoxically similarly good as armor reps for armor tanks if it's too strong, especially in light of the recent armor regenerator buffs. Easiest solution to this inherent problem of bypassing shield cooldown is to not bypass shield cooldown. Boosting resistance of shields instead will greatly increase shield eHP and multiply all inherent recharge rates similar to your proposal. Only difference being that it doesn't allow you to continuously take damage, which some consider not to be a thing shields should be good at anyway. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1644	Posted - 2014.06.11 01:57:00 - [95] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Sorry CatMerc, but a armor tanked Amarr Sentinel with 2x complex kincats would be the absolute end of Dust for me as far as I'm concerned. Hell, a 50/50 rep/armor stacked Gallente Sentinal with 1 complex Kincat would be f'n insane. I'd be happy to give you PG upgrades, Cardiac regs and codebreakers as highs if you need high slot variety though. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10279	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:01:00 - [96] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Sorry CatMerc, but a armor tanked Amarr Sentinel with 2x complex kincats would be the absolute end of Dust for me as far as I'm concerned. Hell, a 50/50 rep/armor stacked Gallente Sentinal with 1 complex Kincat would be f'n insane. I'd be happy to give you PG upgrades, Cardiac regs and codebreakers as highs if you need high slot variety though. Eh, good enough. TBH I don't see your problem here, shields are now performing very close to armor at prototype, the majority of tweaks need to happen at STD/ADV. Moving kin cats to high slots won't really change anything, other than me being one step closer to a true Gallente (Gallente use afterburners and Micro Warp Drives to close the distance quickly and destroy the enemy with short range weaponry in EVE). But hey, I can accept PG upgrades, cardiac regs and code breakers, good enough I guess. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 332	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:27:00 - [97] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Sorry CatMerc, but a armor tanked Amarr Sentinel with 2x complex kincats would be the absolute end of Dust for me as far as I'm concerned. Hell, a 50/50 rep/armor stacked Gallente Sentinal with 1 complex Kincat would be f'n insane. I'd be happy to give you PG upgrades, Cardiac regs and codebreakers as highs if you need high slot variety though. Eh, good enough. TBH I don't see your problem here, shields are now performing very close to armor at prototype, the majority of tweaks need to happen at STD/ADV. Moving kin cats to high slots won't really change anything, other than me being one step closer to a true Gallente (Gallente use afterburners and Micro Warp Drives to close the distance quickly and destroy the enemy with short range weaponry in EVE). But hey, I can accept PG upgrades, cardiac regs and code breakers, good enough I guess. make kincats high slots and damage mods low slots
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10280	Posted - 2014.06.11 02:53:00 - [98] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Sorry CatMerc, but a armor tanked Amarr Sentinel with 2x complex kincats would be the absolute end of Dust for me as far as I'm concerned. Hell, a 50/50 rep/armor stacked Gallente Sentinal with 1 complex Kincat would be f'n insane. I'd be happy to give you PG upgrades, Cardiac regs and codebreakers as highs if you need high slot variety though. Eh, good enough. TBH I don't see your problem here, shields are now performing very close to armor at prototype, the majority of tweaks need to happen at STD/ADV. Moving kin cats to high slots won't really change anything, other than me being one step closer to a true Gallente (Gallente use afterburners and Micro Warp Drives to close the distance quickly and destroy the enemy with short range weaponry in EVE). But hey, I can accept PG upgrades, cardiac regs and code breakers, good enough I guess. make kincats high slots and damage mods low slots Why not? Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1918	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:00:00 - [99] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Sorry CatMerc, but a armor tanked Amarr Sentinel with 2x complex kincats would be the absolute end of Dust for me as far as I'm concerned. Hell, a 50/50 rep/armor stacked Gallente Sentinal with 1 complex Kincat would be f'n insane. I'd be happy to give you PG upgrades, Cardiac regs and codebreakers as highs if you need high slot variety though. Eh, good enough. TBH I don't see your problem here, shields are now performing very close to armor at prototype, the majority of tweaks need to happen at STD/ADV. Moving kin cats to high slots won't really change anything, other than me being one step closer to a true Gallente (Gallente use afterburners and Micro Warp Drives to close the distance quickly and destroy the enemy with short range weaponry in EVE). But hey, I can accept PG upgrades, cardiac regs and code breakers, good enough I guess. make kincats high slots and damage mods low slots Why not? There is already a thread detailing how that would be a bad thing by many experienced minjas here. The REAL Internet King
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10280	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:11:00 - [100] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: There is already a thread detailing how that would be a bad thing by many experienced minjas here. It doesn't detail anything, just people saying "it will be bad" without explaining why. That's the opposite of detailing. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1652	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:36:00 - [101] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: One Eyed King wrote: There is already a thread detailing how that would be a bad thing by many experienced minjas here. It doesn't detail anything, just people saying "it will be bad" without explaining why. That's the opposite of detailing. Can you guys kindly leave Scouts out of this thread? We've got a bunch of other sh*t to deal with. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Shotty GoBang 2840	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:53:00 - [102] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: It doesn't detail anything, just people saying "it will be bad" without explaining why. That's the opposite of detailing. @ Cat Merc I understand you've enjoyed your past 3 months as a "Scout". I understand you're having tons 'o fun slapping bricks on our precision instrument, and I'm sure you're quite good at it. I understand you'd like to "go fast" at 700 HP 'cause it'd be #yoloswag (or whatever you slayer types call it) so why not switch Biotics to highs? But Scouts -- actual Scouts -- don't appreciate our beloved, precision instruments being discussed, defiled and/or tweaked to support the whims of an "Assault Lite" FoTM-chasing band of Tourist scrubs and wannabes. No offense. If you'd like to know why your ideas on Scouts are bad, post them here and actual Scouts will be glad to tell you. The same invitation is extended to the rest of you. When and if you stop by the Barbershop, don't forget to ask for your free shave. o7
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 2134	Posted - 2014.06.11 03:53:00 - [103] - Quote redacted
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10280	Posted - 2014.06.11 04:06:00 - [104] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Cat Merc wrote: It doesn't detail anything, just people saying "it will be bad" without explaining why. That's the opposite of detailing. @ Cat Merc I understand you've enjoyed your past 3 months as a "Scout". I understand you're having tons 'o fun slapping bricks on our precision instrument, and I'm sure you're quite good at it. I understand you'd like to "go fast" at 700 HP 'cause it'd be #yoloswag (or whatever you slayer types call it) so why not switch Biotics to highs? But Scouts -- actual Scouts -- don't appreciate popping into official feedback threads and finding our beloved, precision instruments being discussed, defiled and/or tweaked to support the whims of an "Assault Lite" FoTM-chasing band of Tourist scrubs and wannabes. No offense. If you'd like to know why your ideas on Scouts are bad, post them here and actual Scouts will be glad to tell you. Seriously, we welcome all inquiries and would enjoy spit-balling concepts and crafting theories; pop in anytime, you might actually learn something. This same invitation is extended to everyone, Scout or otherwise. Swing by the Barbershop if you want to talk Scout or have ideas for / about Scouts. When and if you stop by, don't forget to ask for your free shave. Closest in New Eden. o7 I'm sorry, I guess 300-400 HP is the new 700 HP? You can piss off sir, my scouts have never been deployed with more than 500HP, and even that was for only one match of testing. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 332	Posted - 2014.06.11 04:40:00 - [105] - Quote the point is that armor tankers use extenders because the damage mods got nerfed so badly and theres nothing worth while other than extenders for them to use in their highslots so why not buff the damage mods, by increasing their bonus but only to either armor damage or shield damage. not both. i dont think it would affect TTK too much. it seems that moving kincats to highslots would nerf the minmatar too heavily. so include a movement bonus to the melee damage mods. it would make them useful to the minmatar and help offset armor plate penalties lastly, would super short shield delays but longer depleted delays be ok for shield tankers? say we buff regulators so that we we can get a 1 second delay but we leave the depleted delay the same. armor reps work even while taking fire, but shields only recharge when not taking fire. so that would be the difference between them.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance 1295	Posted - 2014.06.11 04:58:00 - [106] - Quote Here's a thought. Remove shield recharge delay, so shields constantly regen even under fire. BUT, increase depleted recharge delay, meaning once the shield breaks, its longer for them to begin regening. This means shield tank play more skirmish like, because once that shield breaks, they are in dire straights. It also promotes the use of regulators, because higher depleted delay mean regulators are that much more efficient. Rechargers also become useful, since the regen is constant, having more hp regen per second is finally useful, at the cost of being easier for your shield to break under sustained fire. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
JP Acuna Pendejitos Zero-Day 180	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:11:00 - [107] - Quote IMO, the key is on regulators. I think their benefits are too poor. It's hard to notice a real difference when you fit them, at least at basic is unnoticeable. As for rechargers... i don't know if they're attractive enough when you'll most probably choose to fit an extender instead. I can only imagine using one effectively in a Caldari heavy. Probably moving them to low-slots will make shield tanking more interesting, but i don't know if that's possible, and i'm not an expert on shield tanking and high/low slot balances to be honest, but it doesn't seem too crazy to me.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2450	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:21:00 - [108] - Quote Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 177	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:25:00 - [109] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to ~~invincible suits~~ Numbers http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/4935 Correction. One invincible suit. Edit: To clarify I think those percentages are acceptable. But I'd watch the Caldari Sentinel closely after you make this change. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:30:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers Not enough Complex reg shoukd be 40% Comeplex energizer should be 70% 5% won't make a slightest difference for shield tanking ability. Also, complex shield energizers take too much cpu, please lower it slightly. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:30:00 - [111] - Quote Woops double post. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 177	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:32:00 - [112] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Not enough Complex reg shoukd be 40% Comeplex energizer should be 70% 5% won't make a slightest difference for shield tanking ability. I disagree because Cal Sentinel is really good. Going too crazy on shield regen ability will make it OP. Instead you should change the base values of Caldari mediums and probably Calmando as well. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 05:32:00 - [113] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Not enough Complex reg shoukd be 40% Comeplex energizer should be 70% 5% won't make a slightest difference for shield tanking ability. I disagree because Cal Sentinel is really good. Going too crazy on shield regen ability will make it OP. Instead you should change the base values of Caldari mediums and probably Calmando as well. No, 5% won't make a difference. Either bring it to 40% and 70% or don't bother changing it at all, 5% for a regulator or recharger is hardly noticible. Also, you can't balance off one almost underpowered suit, without the hmg the cal sent dies to everything easy due to being slow, and easy to hit, you have to basically hug cover to use it. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 333	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:11:00 - [114] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers i like it. but id still like to know if its possible to modify the the shield delay and depleted shield delays bonues independtly of each other

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2455	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:17:00 - [115] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers i like it. but id still like to know if its possible to modify the the shield delay and depleted shield delays bonues independtly of each other it is possible "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

FabryX10 Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 94	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:20:00 - [116] - Quote Caldari assault should have the same shields delays of an heavy. 1 sec of depleted shield delay is more usefull to Assault IMO.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 180	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:20:00 - [117] - Quote duster 3500, You are wrong about the Caldari Sentinel. That is all I have to say. Go back and look at my proto fits link. As it is now, it takes him under 8 seconds to be back to full HP when his shields aren't depleted, and when they are it takes under 4 seconds. If we keep buffing the Cal Sentinel we will be crossing the threshold to having him instantly back to full health, if all he does is evade or find cover. Instantly. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:22:00 - [118] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 3500, You are wrong about the Caldari Sentinel. That is all I have to say. Go back and look at my proto fits link. As it is now, it takes him under 8 seconds to be back to full HP when his shields aren't depleted, and when they are it takes under 4 seconds. If we keep buffing the Cal Sentinel we will be crossing the threshold to having him instantly back to full health, if all he does is evade or find cover. Instantly. And 5% is compketely worthless We can't balance off one suit Gtfo He is a 500 shiele HEA Y, a big target, and SLOW. If anything, that needs a buff to 600 shields total. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:24:00 - [119] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Not enough Complex reg shoukd be 40% Comeplex energizer should be 70% 5% won't make a slightest difference for shield tanking ability. I disagree because Cal Sentinel is really good. Going too crazy on shield regen ability will make it OP. Instead you should change the base values of Caldari mediums and probably Calmando as well. No, 5% won't make a difference. Either bring it to 40% and 70% or don't bother changing it at all, 5% for a regulator or recharger is hardly noticible. Also, you can't balance off one almost underpowered suit, without the hmg the cal sent dies to everything easy due to being slow, and easy to hit, you have to basically hug cover to use it. Also, I will not waste my time testing a useless 5% buff as shields will still suck hard and it would be too frustrating to try with such a useless buff. 5% to a 60% is lol 5% to a 25% isn't noticeable, and it will take more than 5% to make shields have better use, if shields already suck so hard, what makes you think 5% is going to fix it? It will take alot more than 5% to be competitive. So if anyone thinks that 5% changes are acceptable and will fix the mess that is the greatly underpowered shields, they obviously have never used them or they may need a cat scan. To get an idea how useless the buff is...what is 5% of 30? Hint, it is less than 3. Please provide me with feedback ccp Tell me you will increase mods to 40% and 70% at complex, 40% being regulator Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 180	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:24:00 - [120] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 3500, You are wrong about the Caldari Sentinel. That is all I have to say. Go back and look at my proto fits link. As it is now, it takes him under 8 seconds to be back to full HP when his shields aren't depleted, and when they are it takes under 4 seconds. If we keep buffing the Cal Sentinel we will be crossing the threshold to having him instantly back to full health, if all he does is evade or find cover. Instantly. And 5% is compketely worthless We can't balance off one suit Gtfo He is a 500 shiele HEA Y, a big target, and SLOW. If anything, that needs a buff to 600 shields total. It would do your Cal Mediums a LOT BETTER to change THEIR BASIC DROPSUIT VALUES, not the modules in general. I am AGREEING WITH YOU, just in a different way. Stop raging and QQing. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 334	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:26:00 - [121] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers i like it. but id still like to know if its possible to modify the the shield delay and depleted shield delays bonues independtly of each other it is possible Would you consider making regulators have a higher bonus to shield delay? I think that because shield tanking overall carries less hp, being actively aware and not letting your shields reach zero should be the focus rather than everyone using their shield hp as a buffer. I would've left the depleted delay alone, as it's already enough to offset any shield extender penalties
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:30:00 - [122] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 35000 wrote: And 5% is compketely worthless We can't balance off one suit Gtfo He is a 500 shiele HEA Y, a big target, and SLOW. If anything, that needs a buff to 600 shields total. It would do your Cal Mediums a LOT BETTER to change THEIR BASIC DROPSUIT VALUES, not the modules in general. I am AGREEING WITH YOU, just in a different way. Stop raging and QQing. Or stop thinking 5% will fix anything Also your heavy is a big slow target, if caught out of cover enough you will die instantly due to low shields, at least if you don't shoot back a split second after. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Dj grammer Red Star. EoN. 249	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:31:00 - [123] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers Would you consider a decrease in cpu/pg cost of shield extenders?
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 334	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:37:00 - [124] - Quote FabryX10 wrote: Caldari assault should have the same shields delays of an heavy. 1 sec of depleted shield delay is more usefull to Assault IMO. Actually a 1 second depleted delay means you have to let your shields drop to zero first. You wouldn't notice it if you're not letting the enemy completely knock out your shields. A1 second delay is more noticeable because as long as you have 1 hp of shields left, they'd start to recharge 1 second after you got hit, provided you don't get hot again within one second or less
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 559	Posted - 2014.06.11 06:48:00 - [125] - Quote Those numbers look ok but I really think you have to make the regulators stronger. As a shield tanker primarily, I would still be tempted for some armor at only 30% at pro. I will settle for 35%. Really I don't think people will stack them too much. You gotta remember that one low goes to CPU upgrade to compensate for recharger. Secondly one low should be a repairer (or reactive). The cal assault only has 3 low slots.... My min only has two. (Also why I miss that 1hp/s on my suit which should still be there) SMG Specialist
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 183	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:13:00 - [126] - Quote Whatever. Consider yourselves warned. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
I-Shayz-I I-----I 3653	Posted - 2014.06.11 07:24:00 - [127] - Quote Quick feedback of the new regulator numbers: While the buff to 25% and 30% is great, it still isn't enough of a gap to use proto over advanced, especially when you consider the fact that they also have a stacking penalty. This also makes advanced a lot better than standard too. To summarize, we want to create a decent gap between advanced and proto without making standard too powerful compared to advanced, and prototype not able to reduce your recharge rate to game breaking levels. Here's a few solutions: 15, 20, 30 -This I feel works best as you still get a good step up using multiple modules, and is the same ratio as the new shield values 10, 20, 30 -Probably the most balanced, and my personal favorite (10% at basic makes it easy for new players to imagine the effects, 10% of 5 seconds is obviously 0.5 seconds, 20% and 30% is double and triple respectively, so double 0.5 seconds...easy mental math), but I'm guessing most players want more of a buff than just 5% at proto) 15, 25, 35 -Makes prototype the semi-obvious choice, keeps standard and advanced from being useless and encourages multiple module use. Biggest problem is the 35... See, even with stacking penalties 30 is technically possible to remove your shield delay altogether by using 4 modules...but anyone using 4 is sacrificing a lot of fitting options to do so. Unfortunately 35% makes it possible to remove the shield delay at only 3 modules (for easy calculations see this). idk, this is pretty difficult. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1648	Posted - 2014.06.11 08:02:00 - [128] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers Would it be possible to add regulator variants? Like one that reduces depleted delay more but gives no bonus to regular delay, and one that reduces regular delay more but doesn't effect depleted dellay? PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 335	Posted - 2014.06.11 09:14:00 - [129] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Quick feedback of the new regulator numbers: While the buff to 25% and 30% is great, it still isn't enough of a gap to use proto over advanced, especially when you consider the fact that they also have a stacking penalty. This also makes advanced a lot better than standard too. To summarize, we want to create a decent gap between advanced and proto without making standard too powerful compared to advanced, and prototype not able to reduce your recharge rate to game breaking levels. Here's a few solutions: 15, 20, 30 -This I feel works best as you still get a good step up using multiple modules, and is the same ratio as the new shield values 10, 20, 30 -Probably the most balanced, and my personal favorite (10% at basic makes it easy for new players to imagine the effects, 10% of 5 seconds is obviously 0.5 seconds, 20% and 30% is double and triple respectively, so double 0.5 seconds...easy mental math), but I'm guessing most players want more of a buff than just 5% at proto) 15, 25, 35 -Makes prototype the semi-obvious choice, keeps standard and advanced from being useless and encourages multiple module use. Biggest problem is the 35... See, even with stacking penalties 30 is technically possible to remove your shield delay altogether by using 4 modules...but anyone using 4 is sacrificing a lot of fitting options to do so. Unfortunately 35% makes it possible to remove the shield delay at only 3 modules (for easy calculations see this). idk, this is pretty difficult. id actually be ok with 35% on the shield delay only and leave the depleted shield delay at what it is currently. that would make shield tanks alot more powerful while their shields are up while leaving them weak to flux grenades and close combat. the strength in shield tanking is a balance use of all three type of mods. if you brick your shields youll be weak against flux nades and close combat. if you run all regulators in your lows then you nerf your recharge which leaves you weak against flux and close combat again. id like to see complex regulators look like this: -35% to shield delay, and -25% to depleted shield delay.
MINA Longstrike 851	Posted - 2014.06.11 09:21:00 - [130] - Quote Could we see an increase to 20/30/40 on the shield recharge delay, while keeping the depleted delay at 15/25/35 Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 335	Posted - 2014.06.11 09:32:00 - [131] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers Would it be possible to add regulator variants? Like one that reduces depleted delay more but gives no bonus to regular delay, and one that reduces regular delay more but doesn't effect depleted delay? Edit: The problem is that adding a 5% bonus to an already far too weak module isn't going to be enough to make it worth running over an additional plate For example: a Minmatar assault with 4 shield extenders has about a 10.2 second recharge delay (which is in itself ridiculous since it's the lowest eHP assault suit in the game). Throwing on a current prototype regulator will reduce that to 7.6 seconds to wait while bullets are raining all around you and missiles are falling from the sky. Waiting that long before your shields START to recover, not before they ARE recovered. With this new bonus, instead we'll be waiting 7.1 seconds for our shields to START coming back. You just saved me 0.5 seconds on a 7+ second wait...... thanks. That might be enough to save me.... 3% of the time. I don't know how well you know your Minmatar suits, but that means we have 168 (at max armor passive skill) to keep us alive until our shields begin to regen, and that's if you don't take any fall damage, get clipped by a vehicle, or get grazed by a stray bullet in the meantime. 1-6 bullets from just about any weapon is enough to kill that, and I don't know if you've noticed but our guns shoot a lot of bullets really fast. So tell me why, with this minuscule wait time increase, would I not be more inclined to simply throw on a plate? At least then I'd have the health to run away once my shields went down. With this low eHP, I'd be better off having at least one plate to give me the health to run when necessary as opposed to dying while hiding and hoping my shields come back before the guy that shot my shields off decides to come play peek-a-boo around whatever cover I'm using. I'll use you as my example of why shield tanking is done wrong by players. You only needed enough shield hp to absorb whatever blast hit you. What's your shield delay? Extenders don't penalize your normal shield delay. If you hadn't let your shields drop to zero you actually would've only had to wait maybe 5 seconds. I think that's too long and should be shortened. But It's my belief that anyone who stacks that much shield hp and still manage to let their shield drop to zero deserves to die.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6038	Posted - 2014.06.11 09:32:00 - [132] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Not enough Complex reg shoukd be 40% Comeplex energizer should be 70% 5% won't make a slightest difference for shield tanking ability. I disagree because Cal Sentinel is really good. Going too crazy on shield regen ability will make it OP. Instead you should change the base values of Caldari mediums and probably Calmando as well. So fix the suit, not the module. There's no reason to impose a change to a module because it would make one suit over-powered when it's delay was already brought into question before it was even released back in 1.8 Shield Regulators -need- to be powerful to encourage their use over plates. Reducing their value "because 'x' will be OP" is foolish and is just going to be replaced by things that are more useful which have already been deemed to be a problem. Unless someone has a better proposal as to how to encourage something other than hybrid-tanking, I don't see a reason why regulators can't be powerful, especially when they benefit the entire point of shield tanking to begin with. To be clear, I'm totally against the new proposed numbers because I don't feel they're enough. If it was brought down to 15/25/35 I'd be more understanding because there's a clear cut advantage to using higher tiers but having a 5% increase on what we already have isn't going to suddenly encourage players to want to use them more. I'd rather have an additional 85 HP than shave off 0.3 seconds off the delay as opposed to what I can do now. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Sum1ne Else G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1188	Posted - 2014.06.11 10:06:00 - [133] - Quote I have been messing around with Shield Regs, and energizers over the last week or two because I want to go into Caldari Sentinel, but its just not an option > the Gallente is currently king. I have tried putting regs on different heavies but anymore than 2 then it really does not make any difference. I have even used regs on my Gal.commando GK0. Any case: 'The Fit' IMHO would be my ideal fit http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/4884 This thing is Shield depleted delay is complete BS - you have to fully deplete shields and not go into armour for it to activate (which is rarely the case), so this really needs addressing! Having 1 low slot is not enough, it either needs to have less of a delay or an additional low slot or as previously said an increased level 25>40% on the complex reg. I think if you changed the complex reg it MAY result in an OP fit elsewhere ie. cal scout. The shield regs only really benefit a Heavy (amarr heavy could benefit too!!) or an assault. So in turn this could help our situation with assault suits so all in all it definitely needs re-working. Shield Energizers need an additional bonus like added resistance. From shield re chargers to energizers there's only an increased amount rather than anything additional. I think it would be great if the energizers had an added resistance to armour based weapons..
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1086	Posted - 2014.06.11 10:29:00 - [134] - Quote Sorry if this have been said before, but a rework to shield tanking should start with the suits stats. The really important stats when considering shield tanking are shield recharge speed, shield recharge delay and shield depleted delay. Those stats vary wildly between shield tanking suits, even in the same race. The shield tanking stats of a Caldari scout or heavy are much, much better than the ones from a Caldari logi or assault, and a dream to a Minmatar assault. Due to that it is very difficult to propose changes to shield modules, because if we make them reasonable to say, for example, the Caldari scout, they will probably be worthless for a Caldari Logi or a Min assault. And if we make them good enough for the Min Assault, then they will be OP in a Caldari Heavy or Scout. So my 2 cents is that the shield tanking rework should start at equalizing a little more the related base stats of the shield tanking suits, and with that I mean buffing the base stats of the Cal assault/logi and to a lesser extent, the Min suits. Only after that it would be reasonable to start talking about modules. So if you have in mind any future changes to the base stats of any suit, and you could share them with us, it would make for a more fruitful discussion. If you don't want to do that, I don't dare to throw numbers here, apart from getting the enhanced shield extender to 44 hp which is a no given, and suggesting to lower the shield regulator fitting requirements. Rechargers are expensive, but very difficult to balance when some shield tanking suits have 50 hp of base recharging value and others have 18 or less. TL;DR We should be talking about buffing the base stats (recharge rate, delay, depleted delay) of the weaker shield tanking suits, before starting to talk about modules.
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2770	Posted - 2014.06.11 10:50:00 - [135] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Quick feedback of the new regulator numbers: While the buff to 25% and 30% is great, it still isn't enough of a gap to use proto over advanced, especially when you consider the fact that they also have a stacking penalty. This also makes advanced a lot better than standard too. To summarize, we want to create a decent gap between advanced and proto without making standard too powerful compared to advanced, and prototype not able to reduce your recharge rate to game breaking levels. Here's a few solutions: 15, 20, 30 -This I feel works best as you still get a good step up using multiple modules, and is the same ratio as the new shield values 10, 20, 30 -Probably the most balanced, and my personal favorite (10% at basic makes it easy for new players to imagine the effects, 10% of 5 seconds is obviously 0.5 seconds, 20% and 30% is double and triple respectively, so double 0.5 seconds...easy mental math), but I'm guessing most players want more of a buff than just 5% at proto) 15, 25, 35 -Makes prototype the semi-obvious choice, keeps standard and advanced from being useless and encourages multiple module use. Biggest problem is the 35... See, even with stacking penalties 30 is technically possible to remove your shield delay altogether by using 4 modules...but anyone using 4 is sacrificing a lot of fitting options to do so. Unfortunately 35% makes it possible to remove the shield delay at only 3 modules (for easy calculations see this). idk, this is pretty difficult. Dont trust that do it by hand :) Let's say your delay is 5 3.25 seconds for first module 2.26 for the second module 1.81 for the third module supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2770	Posted - 2014.06.11 10:51:00 - [136] - Quote db post supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 11:35:00 - [137] - Quote I know I'm taking liberty with your lack of specificity here, but since this is a thread on shield tanking here is a link to my thoughts on Caldari vs Minmatar shield tanking as it pertains to Assault Suits. Ya know, for when you guys get to that point. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 335	Posted - 2014.06.11 11:52:00 - [138] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: Sorry if this have been said before, but a rework to shield tanking should start with the suits stats. The really important stats when considering shield tanking are shield recharge rate, shield recharge delay and shield depleted delay. Those stats vary wildly between shield tanking suits, even in the same race. The shield tanking stats of a Caldari scout or heavy are much, much better than the ones from a Caldari logi or assault, and a dream to a Minmatar assault. Due to that it is very difficult to propose changes to shield modules, because if we make them reasonable to say, for example, the Caldari scout, they will probably be worthless for a Caldari Logi or a Min assault. And if we make them good enough for the Min Assault, then they will be OP in a Caldari Heavy or Scout. So my 2 cents is that the shield tanking rework should start at equalizing a little more the related base stats of the shield tanking suits, and with that I mean buffing the base stats of the Cal assault/logi and to a lesser extent, the Min suits. Only after that it would be reasonable to start talking about modules. So if you have in mind any future changes to the base stats of any suit, and you could share them with us, it would make for a more fruitful discussion. If you don't want to do that, I don't dare to throw numbers here, apart from suggesting to lower strongly the shield regulator fitting requirements. TL;DR We should be talking about buffing the base stats (recharge rate, delay, depleted delay) of the weaker shield tanking suits, before starting to talk about modules. not true. the scout and heavy have bad slot layouts. the scout could run a shield tank without a cpu mod if it gives up its cloak. but if it wants to keep its cloak and fit a shield tank it needs to use it second low slot for a cpu mod. the scout can then either go with a 2/2 extender/recharger setup or a 3/1 extender/recharger setup for an optimal shield tank. the heavy is screwed with only one low slot, so you throw a regulator on and then fit whatever 2 recharger or energizers you can for best recharge and then throw on extender. id even argue for a full rack of extenders honestly the imbalance from buffing regulators comes from stacking them, but the high cpu cost of shield mods keeps things somewhat balanced (which is why we cant lower the cpu costs of complex mods)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 335	Posted - 2014.06.11 11:58:00 - [139] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I know I'm taking liberty with your lack of specificity here, but since this is a thread on shield tanking here is a link to my thoughts on Caldari vs Minmatar shield tanking as it pertains to Assault Suits. Ya know, for when you guys get to that point. i think that was poorly thought out. you given them shield base stats that are higher than the amarr and gallente have armor. youve shown that your focus is on brick tanking shield hp. thats not how shields work
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:02:00 - [140] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers Would it be possible to add regulator variants? Like one that reduces depleted delay more but gives no bonus to regular delay, and one that reduces regular delay more but doesn't effect depleted delay? Edit: The problem is that adding a 5% bonus to an already far too weak module isn't going to be enough to make it worth running over an additional plate For example: a Minmatar assault with 4 shield extenders has about a 10.2 second recharge delay (which is in itself ridiculous since it's the lowest eHP assault suit in the game). Throwing on a current prototype regulator will reduce that to 7.6 seconds to wait while bullets are raining all around you and missiles are falling from the sky. Waiting that long before your shields START to recover, not before they ARE recovered. With this new bonus, instead we'll be waiting 7.1 seconds for our shields to START coming back. You just saved me 0.5 seconds on a 7+ second wait...... thanks. That might be enough to save me.... 3% of the time. I don't know how well you know your Minmatar suits, but that means we have 168 (at max armor passive skill) to keep us alive until our shields begin to regen, and that's if you don't take any fall damage, get clipped by a vehicle, or get grazed by a stray bullet in the meantime. 1-6 bullets from just about any weapon is enough to kill that, and I don't know if you've noticed but our guns shoot a lot of bullets really fast. So tell me why, with this minuscule wait time increase, would I not be more inclined to simply throw on a plate? At least then I'd have the health to run away once my shields went down. With this low eHP, I'd be better off having at least one plate to give me the health to run when necessary as opposed to dying while hiding and hoping my shields come back before the guy that shot my shields off decides to come play peek-a-boo around whatever cover I'm using. I'll use you as my example of why shield tanking is done wrong by players. You only needed enough shield hp to absorb whatever blast hit you. What's your shield delay? Extenders don't penalize your normal shield delay. If you hadn't let your shields drop to zero you actually would've only had to wait maybe 5 seconds. I think that's too long and should be shortened. But It's my belief that anyone who stacks that much shield hp and still manage to let their shield drop to zero deserves to die. I have 5 high slots. Should I be leaving them empty? Damage mods are useless, my passives pick up any non-damped suits and anyone who IS damped is going to be beyond anything less than 2 precision enhancers. Putting on less shields means my shields get depleted fully SOONER, and I even though shield HP is the high end of the HP pool on my suit even before mods, I only have 37.4 more base shields than Amarr or Gallente and 75 less than a Caldari while having less armor than anyone (base 135). To top that off, I already have to run a recharger or energizer in one of my highs in order to keep my recharge speed up with the Caldari's base recharge stats; and even with just 2 shield extenders fitted, a Complex regulator wont keep my depleted delay up with a Caldari assault's base depleted delay stats. (You know the Caldari right? The ones who are supposed to TANK shields and not BUFFER TANK them?) So tell me, when running my 2 shield extenders (keeping my shield health equal to a Caldari assault with one extender on), just to keep my depleted delay ALMOST as low as a Caldari assault's depleted delay when I have a COMPLEX regulator on, how should I run my suit to keep my HP above that of a scout so I can survive? You know, the guys that can run faster than me, strafe faster than me, don't show on my radar, and can passively see me on theirs? What do you suggest? Armor plate? Oh wait, we're trying to FIX that problem, aren't we.... PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 335	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:11:00 - [141] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers Would it be possible to add regulator variants? Like one that reduces depleted delay more but gives no bonus to regular delay, and one that reduces regular delay more but doesn't effect depleted delay? Edit: The problem is that adding a 5% bonus to an already far too weak module isn't going to be enough to make it worth running over an additional plate For example: a Minmatar assault with 4 shield extenders has about a 10.2 second recharge delay (which is in itself ridiculous since it's the lowest eHP assault suit in the game). Throwing on a current prototype regulator will reduce that to 7.6 seconds to wait while bullets are raining all around you and missiles are falling from the sky. Waiting that long before your shields START to recover, not before they ARE recovered. With this new bonus, instead we'll be waiting 7.1 seconds for our shields to START coming back. You just saved me 0.5 seconds on a 7+ second wait...... thanks. That might be enough to save me.... 3% of the time. I don't know how well you know your Minmatar suits, but that means we have 168 (at max armor passive skill) to keep us alive until our shields begin to regen, and that's if you don't take any fall damage, get clipped by a vehicle, or get grazed by a stray bullet in the meantime. 1-6 bullets from just about any weapon is enough to kill that, and I don't know if you've noticed but our guns shoot a lot of bullets really fast. So tell me why, with this minuscule wait time increase, would I not be more inclined to simply throw on a plate? At least then I'd have the health to run away once my shields went down. With this low eHP, I'd be better off having at least one plate to give me the health to run when necessary as opposed to dying while hiding and hoping my shields come back before the guy that shot my shields off decides to come play peek-a-boo around whatever cover I'm using. I'll use you as my example of why shield tanking is done wrong by players. You only needed enough shield hp to absorb whatever blast hit you. What's your shield delay? Extenders don't penalize your normal shield delay. If you hadn't let your shields drop to zero you actually would've only had to wait maybe 5 seconds. I think that's too long and should be shortened. But It's my belief that anyone who stacks that much shield hp and still manage to let their shield drop to zero deserves to die. I have 5 high slots. Should I be leaving them empty? Damage mods are useless, my passives pick up any non-damped suits and anyone who IS damped is going to be beyond anything less than 2 precision enhancers. Putting on less shields means my shields get depleted fully SOONER, and I even though shield HP is the high end of the HP pool on my suit even before mods, I only have 37.4 more base shields than Amarr or Gallente and 75 less than a Caldari while having less armor than anyone (base 135). To top that off, I already have to run a recharger or energizer in one of my highs in order to keep my recharge speed up with the Caldari's base recharge stats; and even with just 2 shield extenders fitted, a Complex regulator wont keep my depleted delay up with a Caldari assault's base depleted delay stats. (You know the Caldari right? The ones who are supposed to TANK shields and not BUFFER TANK them?) So tell me, when running my 2 shield extenders (keeping my shield health equal to a Caldari assault with one extender on), just to keep my depleted delay ALMOST as low as a Caldari assault's depleted delay when I have a COMPLEX regulator on, how should I run my suit to keep my HP above that of a scout so I can survive? You know, the guys that can run faster than me, strafe faster than me, don't show on my radar, and can passively see me on theirs? What do you suggest? Armor plate? Oh wait, we're trying to FIX that problem, aren't we.... you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3245	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:33:00 - [142] - Quote Could you please edit the spreadsheet so that we see the actual rate of fire changes instead of the silly numbers where i have to do the math by myself? For example the rate of fire with the assault rifle. In the spreadsheet its listed that we currently have a fire interval of 0.08 and the proposed change is 0.075. For those who dont understand it i teach you now what this actually means: weapon stats are allways rounds per minute (rpm) and a minute has 60 secs (duh). So all you have to do is to devide 1 minute with that number in the spreadsheet. For the assault rifle it looks like this: 60/0,08= 750 RPM (thats what the stats ingame will tell you) 60/0,075= 800 RPM (thats the proposed change) So you see the assault rifle gets a +50 RPM buff but to figure that out i had to run maths. Not every simpleton here has the patience to do that. So instead of posting random numbers i would like to see that you show the ingame stats which makes our all life much easier.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 2485	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:37:00 - [143] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Could you please edit the spreadsheet so that we see the actual rate of fire changes instead of the silly numbers where i have to do the math by myself? For example the rate of fire with the assault rifle. In the spreadsheet its listed that we currently have a fire interval of 0.08 and the proposed change is 0.075. For those who dont understand it i teach you now what this actually means: weapon stats are allways rounds per minute (rpm) and a minute has 60 secs (duh). So all you have to do is to devide 1 minute with that number in the spreadsheet. For the assault rifle it looks like this: 60/0,08= 750 RPM (thats what the stats ingame will tell you) 60/0,075= 800 RPM (thats the proposed change) So you see the assault rifle gets a +50 RPM buff but to figure that out i had to run maths. Not every simpleton here has the patience to do that. So instead of posting random numbers i would like to see that you show the ingame stats which makes our all life much easier. Done "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 12:40:00 - [144] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style No, I just described why Minmatar SHOULD be hit-and-run specialists. The Minmatar scout is a great hit-and-run suit because of it's native scans and damps combined with it's spectacular speed and balanced slot loadout. The Minmatar assault is not fast enough to be able to get the run part of "hit-and-run" down since every scout that's not completely loaded down with plates and any assault with a single basic kincat can keep up with. There is not enough good cover in this game to bounce from cover to cover avoiding gunfire. It has no bonus to scans or damps so even if you do run you are 75% of the time just picked off by a scout who saw what you were doing and got ahead of you. With 3 complex precision enhancers this suit cannot scan a scout with a single damp on (3 complex puts my scan at 26.35db, scout with 1 proto damp = 23.63), so that increases the % of people I can scan over no precision enhancers by about 3% since my maxed passives already pick up anyone not a scout or damped, so that's useless. I can't Damp tank to avoid scanners or scout passives since I only have 2 lows, one always held by a regulator. And since my ability to recover from damage is worse than anyone's, my suit fails at recovering in a pinch. So, basically all the things that could be used to put together a great hit-and-run class the Minmatar either fails at miserably or attempts but falls short of. No, sir, YOU are the one who has no clue what he is speaking of. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1099	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:11:00 - [145] - Quote Wow, some of you should really just stop posting in feedback as it's clear that you don't know how to properly play the game. The only issue with Minmatar lies with the heavy variant as it doesn't have outstanding abilities like the medium/light racial bonuses, all it has is a decent stamina recovery. Shield rechargers/energizers are not in need of tweaks, the bonus is good enough and if you can't fit it USE A CPU UPGRADE. As suggested in a different thread, shield regulators should be changed to a 20/30/40 progression while adding a new variant that does the following: STD - 10% reduction to delay and 5% increase to base shields. ADV - 20% reduction to delay and 10% increase to base shields. PRO - 25% reduction to delay and 15% increase to base shields. With that we have one variant that is useful when frequently taking damage and another that gives some HP but with a slightly longer wait time to recover it. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 89	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:16:00 - [146] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style No, I just described why Minmatar SHOULD be hit-and-run specialists. The Minmatar scout is a great hit-and-run suit because of it's native scans and damps combined with it's spectacular speed and balanced slot loadout. The Minmatar assault is not fast enough to be able to get the run part of "hit-and-run" down since every scout that's not completely loaded down with plates and any assault with a single basic kincat can keep up with. There is not enough good cover in this game to bounce from cover to cover avoiding gunfire. It has no bonus to scans or damps so even if you do run you are 75% of the time just picked off by a scout who saw what you were doing and got ahead of you. With 3 complex precision enhancers this suit cannot scan a scout with a single damp on (3 complex puts my scan at 26.35db, scout with 1 proto damp = 23.63), so that increases the % of people I can scan over no precision enhancers by about 3% since my maxed passives already pick up anyone not a scout or damped, so that's useless. I can't Damp tank to avoid scanners or scout passives since I only have 2 lows, one always held by a regulator. And since my ability to recover from damage is worse than anyone's, my suit fails at recovering in a pinch. So, basically all the things that could be used to put together a great hit-and-run class the Minmatar either fails at miserably or attempts but falls short of. No, sir, YOU are the one who has no clue what he is speaking of. Adding Medium Weapons for Medium suits and making the gap between Light, Medium and Heavy weapons much larger would help a lot. Scouts could run past you but never do enough damage if they are alone before you'd notice him and wreck him with ease. First day veteran, Logi and Commander Soon a Legionnaire AmlSeb on Twitter
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:27:00 - [147] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Wow, some of you should really just stop posting in feedback as it's clear that you don't know how to properly play the game. The only issue with Minmatar lies with the heavy variant as it doesn't have outstanding abilities like the medium/light racial bonuses, all it has is a decent stamina recovery. Shield rechargers/energizers are not in need of tweaks, the bonus is good enough and if you can't fit it USE A CPU UPGRADE. As suggested in a different thread, shield regulators should be changed to a 20/30/40 progression while adding a new variant that does the following: STD - 10% reduction to delay and 5% increase to base shields. ADV - 20% reduction to delay and 10% increase to base shields. PRO - 25% reduction to delay and 15% increase to base shields. With that we have one variant that is useful when frequently taking damage and another that gives some HP but with a slightly longer wait time to recover it. Wow, some of you should really just stop posting in feedback as it's clear you refuse to accept that everyone has different viewpoints on the same playstyles to share. You know, that thing we call "Feedback". And I must have missed the part where someone was complaining about being able to fit modules. On Topic - If you were to put in this variant you would be adding a low module that adds shield HP. Would it not make sense to move reactive plates to a high slot so that armor to even things out in that respect? Reactives are about as close to regulators as armor modules get, and it would give armor fits something useful apart from shields to throw in their high slots. Thoughts? PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 336	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:40:00 - [148] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style No, I just described why Minmatar SHOULD be hit-and-run specialists. The Minmatar scout is a great hit-and-run suit because of it's native scans and damps combined with it's spectacular speed and balanced slot loadout. The Minmatar assault is not fast enough to be able to get the run part of "hit-and-run" down since every scout that's not completely loaded down with plates and any assault with a single basic kincat can keep up with. There is not enough good cover in this game to bounce from cover to cover avoiding gunfire. It has no bonus to scans or damps so even if you do run you are 75% of the time just picked off by a scout who saw what you were doing and got ahead of you. With 3 complex precision enhancers this suit cannot scan a scout with a single damp on (3 complex puts my scan at 26.35db, scout with 1 proto damp = 23.63), so that increases the % of people I can scan over no precision enhancers by about 3% since my maxed passives already pick up anyone not a scout or damped, so that's useless. I can't Damp tank to avoid scanners or scout passives since I only have 2 lows, one always held by a regulator. And since my ability to recover from damage is worse than anyone's, my suit fails at recovering in a pinch. So, basically all the things that could be used to put together a great hit-and-run class the Minmatar either fails at miserably or attempts but falls short of. No, sir, YOU are the one who has no clue what he is speaking of. so youre not using complex kincats? i dont need cover just kill, run and flank the next target. you dont need scanners and you dont need defense really. just focus on speed and firepower. thats it and use damage mods. i just did a match (lost it) but i went 17/6 in milita medium frame lol. dont tell me idk how to hit and run. i just did without any problems and died 3 times in it. i hack a point, left, came back and killed three guys counter hacking ran away, and came back killed a dude as he was being revived, then killed the guy who revived him, then a heavy caldari after that. i dont even run minmatar and know how they work lol 1 complex extender 1 enhanced recharger 1 enhanced damage mod std combat rifle std smg compact nanohive
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1649	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:46:00 - [149] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style No, I just described why Minmatar SHOULD be hit-and-run specialists. The Minmatar scout is a great hit-and-run suit because of it's native scans and damps combined with it's spectacular speed and balanced slot loadout. The Minmatar assault is not fast enough to be able to get the run part of "hit-and-run" down since every scout that's not completely loaded down with plates and any assault with a single basic kincat can keep up with. There is not enough good cover in this game to bounce from cover to cover avoiding gunfire. It has no bonus to scans or damps so even if you do run you are 75% of the time just picked off by a scout who saw what you were doing and got ahead of you. With 3 complex precision enhancers this suit cannot scan a scout with a single damp on (3 complex puts my scan at 26.35db, scout with 1 proto damp = 23.63), so that increases the % of people I can scan over no precision enhancers by about 3% since my maxed passives already pick up anyone not a scout or damped, so that's useless. I can't Damp tank to avoid scanners or scout passives since I only have 2 lows, one always held by a regulator. And since my ability to recover from damage is worse than anyone's, my suit fails at recovering in a pinch. So, basically all the things that could be used to put together a great hit-and-run class the Minmatar either fails at miserably or attempts but falls short of. No, sir, YOU are the one who has no clue what he is speaking of. so youre not using complex kincats? i dont need cover just kill, run and flank the next target. you dont need scanners and you dont need defense really. just focus on speed and firepower. thats it and use damage mods. i just did a match (lost it) but i went 17/6 in milita medium frame lol. dont tell me idk how to hit and run. i just did without any problems and died 3 times in it. i hack a point, left, came back and killed three guys counter hacking ran away, and came back killed a dude as he was being revived, then killed the guy who revived him, then a heavy caldari after that. i dont even run minmatar and know how they work lol 1 complex extender 1 enhanced recharger 1 enhanced damage mod std combat rifle std smg compact nanohive I'll post my response in this thread as we are crowding a shield balancing thread with a suit argument. If you want to see it, feel free to go there here in a few minutes. Either way, we don't need to bog this thread down with this topic. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1099	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:49:00 - [150] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Wow, some of you should really just stop posting in feedback as it's clear you refuse to accept that everyone has different viewpoints on the same playstyles to share. You know, that thing we call "Feedback". And I must have missed the part where someone was complaining about being able to fit modules. On Topic - If you were to put in this variant you would be adding a low module that adds shield HP. Would it not make sense to move reactive plates to a high slot so that armor to even things out in that respect? Reactives are about as close to regulators as armor modules get, and it would give armor fits something useful apart from shields to throw in their high slots. Thoughts? Offering misleading feedback would result in unnecessary tweaks or balance issues (see current state of scouts). Anyways, reactives should remain on low due to armor suits already having huge HP, for the variant I suggested it's ok due to shields needing extra HP but still not being able to get too close to armor suit HP total (shields are quick to recover). Moving reactice to high would be overkill due to lower cpu/pg req than shields. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!

Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1650	Posted - 2014.06.11 14:51:00 - [151] - Quote Redacted PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1100	Posted - 2014.06.11 15:16:00 - [152] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: Offering misleading feedback would result in unnecessary tweaks or balance issues (see current state of scouts). Anyways, reactives should remain on low due to armor suits already having huge HP, for the variant I suggested it's ok due to shields needing extra HP but still not being able to get too close to armor suit HP total (shields are quick to recover). Moving reactice to high would be overkill due to lower cpu/pg req than shields. Would these regulators be giving a percentage of base shields or total shields? Because if it's total, a Caldari assault fully shield tanked right now would go from 552.3 to 634.8 shields (not too terribly large of a jump if they only used a single module, potential for issues if stacked), but a Caldari heavy would go from 946.7 to 1088.7 and tbh with resistances boosting eHP the way they are already this could be something of an issue. I specified base shields. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
Sum1ne Else G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1190	Posted - 2014.06.11 15:38:00 - [153] - Quote ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Thunderdome^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^? lol *grabs popcorn
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 1651	Posted - 2014.06.11 15:52:00 - [154] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: Offering misleading feedback would result in unnecessary tweaks or balance issues (see current state of scouts). Anyways, reactives should remain on low due to armor suits already having huge HP, for the variant I suggested it's ok due to shields needing extra HP but still not being able to get too close to armor suit HP total (shields are quick to recover). Moving reactice to high would be overkill due to lower cpu/pg req than shields. Would these regulators be giving a percentage of base shields or total shields? Because if it's total, a Caldari assault fully shield tanked right now would go from 552.3 to 634.8 shields (not too terribly large of a jump if they only used a single module, potential for issues if stacked), but a Caldari heavy would go from 946.7 to 1088.7 and tbh with resistances boosting eHP the way they are already this could be something of an issue. I specified base shields. Missed it, I see no issue with this then. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 Cross Atu for CPM1
D legendary hero warravens Final Resolution. 1897	Posted - 2014.06.11 16:24:00 - [155] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. Energizer's need to be adjusted to 30%, 50%, and 75% respectively. And have their penalty reduced. Caldari needs its shield recharge delay reduced by 1 second (depletion and regular recharge). Minmatar needs its shield recharge delay reduced by 2 seconds (depletion and regular recharge). Shields lend themselves to a duck and cover/hit and run play style. we need faster recovery. Minmatar and caldari both should have a bonus to shield extenders (or just an additional base 80 extra shields). Because shields don't hold up to the high powered weaponry we have now. And shields cannot be stacked with the same efficacy as armor. Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Phoenix 85 Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 122	Posted - 2014.06.11 16:27:00 - [156] - Quote WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT PC VS CONSOLE
D legendary hero warravens Final Resolution. 1897	Posted - 2014.06.11 16:30:00 - [157] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style No, I just described why Minmatar SHOULD be hit-and-run specialists. The Minmatar scout is a great hit-and-run suit because of it's native scans and damps combined with it's spectacular speed and balanced slot loadout. The Minmatar assault is not fast enough to be able to get the run part of "hit-and-run" down since every scout that's not completely loaded down with plates and any assault with a single basic kincat can keep up with. There is not enough good cover in this game to bounce from cover to cover avoiding gunfire. It has no bonus to scans or damps so even if you do run you are 75% of the time just picked off by a scout who saw what you were doing and got ahead of you. With 3 complex precision enhancers this suit cannot scan a scout with a single damp on (3 complex puts my scan at 26.35db, scout with 1 proto damp = 23.63), so that increases the % of people I can scan over no precision enhancers by about 3% since my maxed passives already pick up anyone not a scout or damped, so that's useless. I can't Damp tank to avoid scanners or scout passives since I only have 2 lows, one always held by a regulator. And since my ability to recover from damage is worse than anyone's, my suit fails at recovering in a pinch. So, basically all the things that could be used to put together a great hit-and-run class the Minmatar either fails at miserably or attempts but falls short of. No, sir, YOU are the one who has no clue what he is speaking of. I covered this issue in so many threads. but no one beleived me. Im glad someone who runs minmatar realized this. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137506 Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
D legendary hero warravens Final Resolution. 1897	Posted - 2014.06.11 16:33:00 - [158] - Quote Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. I also have been talking about this for months https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137506 Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 336	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:00:00 - [159] - Quote Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. because they cant run like the minmatar can. caldari are more stationary. minmatar can just run away (when possible)
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1102	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:11:00 - [160] - Quote Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. **** I almost forgot about this. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!

Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1104	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:15:00 - [161] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: Energizer's need to be adjusted to 30%, 50%, and 75% respectively. And have their penalty reduced. No. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:49:00 - [162] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Energizer's need to be adjusted to 30%, 50%, and 75% respectively. And have their penalty reduced. No. Yes except penalty part Complex cpu is way too much too. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1104	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:53:00 - [163] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Energizer's need to be adjusted to 30%, 50%, and 75% respectively. And have their penalty reduced. No. Yes except penalty part Complex cpu is way too much too. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:56:00 - [164] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Energizer's need to be adjusted to 30%, 50%, and 75% respectively. And have their penalty reduced. No. Yes except penalty part Complex cpu is way too much too. 96 cpu, more than 1/3rd of cpu on most suits. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 749	Posted - 2014.06.11 17:59:00 - [165] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hi, we are back with numbers here, we are aiming for tweaks as the bonuses are mostly % based, so stacking can lead to invincible suits. Numbers The numbers look good except for shield extenders and the prototype shield regulators. Enhanced shield extenders only offer 11 more HP over standard; barely anyone is going to use ADV for the same reason its not used right now. Also the HP buff to standard throws off the balance between standard reactive plates. Having a shield extenders be 22/44/66 at STD/ADV/PRO (22 per tier) and have the penalty at 0/4/8%, would incentive the use of all extenders instead of just STD and PRO. If you really think raising standard extenders to 33 is a good idea, then have the progression be 33/49.5/66 (16.5 per tier). The progression for shield regulars should be 10% per tier instead of a weird 10% from STA-ADV and 5% from ADV-PRO. Having the progression be 15/25/35 would be a lot better than 15/25/30. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 749	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:04:00 - [166] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. **** I almost forgot about this. This would fix a lot of things. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1105	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:17:00 - [167] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: 96 cpu, more than 1/3rd of cpu on most suits. You mean ADV suits? The cost is reasonable considering how fast I get my shields back, it's the best module for any heavy. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:21:00 - [168] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: duster 35000 wrote: 96 cpu, more than 1/3rd of cpu on most suits. You mean ADV suits? The cost is reasonable considering how fast I get my shields back, it's the best module for any heavy. Yea, for heavies, for every other suit you can fit a max of 2. Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 261	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:33:00 - [169] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: you just explained why minmatar are guerrilla warfare specialists. this is why the combat rifle does so much damage. combined with minmatar speed you get in fast, blast your target and leave before anyone can do anything about it. then you do it again to someone else. minmatar dont do slug matches. they are hit and run. more so than caldari. their stats are designed purposely so they cant stand toe to toe with anyone. theyre designed to force you into the hit and run play style No, I just described why Minmatar SHOULD be hit-and-run specialists. The Minmatar scout is a great hit-and-run suit because of it's native scans and damps combined with it's spectacular speed and balanced slot loadout. The Minmatar assault is not fast enough to be able to get the run part of "hit-and-run" down since every scout that's not completely loaded down with plates and any assault with a single basic kincat can keep up with. There is not enough good cover in this game to bounce from cover to cover avoiding gunfire. It has no bonus to scans or damps so even if you do run you are 75% of the time just picked off by a scout who saw what you were doing and got ahead of you. With 3 complex precision enhancers this suit cannot scan a scout with a single damp on (3 complex puts my scan at 26.35db, scout with 1 proto damp = 23.63), so that increases the % of people I can scan over no precision enhancers by about 3% since my maxed passives already pick up anyone not a scout or damped, so that's useless. I can't Damp tank to avoid scanners or scout passives since I only have 2 lows, one always held by a regulator. And since my ability to recover from damage is worse than anyone's, my suit fails at recovering in a pinch. So, basically all the things that could be used to put together a great hit-and-run class the Minmatar either fails at miserably or attempts but falls short of. No, sir, YOU are the one who has no clue what he is speaking of. Minmatar base suit summary: Scout = hit and run Assault = hit and jog Heavy = hit and saunter Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1
bogeyman m Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 261	Posted - 2014.06.11 18:39:00 - [170] - Quote Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. Like. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel. Cross Atu for CPM1 Appia Vibbia for CPM1

Joseph Ridgeson warravens Final Resolution. 1990	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:22:00 - [171] - Quote PG/CPU costs of Extenders are bonkers still. They really need to change. I would also argue that 33->44->66 is a hell of a lot better than what it was but is still severely lacking. Compare that the the scaling plates get: Basic: 85 Advanced: 110 (29.4% increase from Basic) Complex: 135 (22.27% increase from Advanced and 58.8% increase from Basic) Shields are looking to be 33% from Basic to Advanced, 50% increase from Advanced to Complex, and a 100% increase from Basic to Complex. The numbers still overly favor using Complex only. I understand the Catch 22; Extenders have such a low that if it was an equivilant increase similar to Plates that there would be next to no reason to use Complex. However... that is how it works for Armor. Most of the time, Basic Plates are more than enough. Is it so ridiculous to think that Basic Extenders should have the same mentality? If we go with Armor and Plates give the same amount of "defense" and we accept that 66 is the correct number for Complex Shield extenders to have, we can divide one by the other to get a baseline. 2.045. So dividing armor values by that gives us: Basic Extender: 41.56 (41) Advanced Extender: 53.79 (53) Complex Extender: 66 "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
jaksol JAK darnson Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:55:00 - [172] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. maby giving a shield based asault suits a like 4% increase to all shield moduals NOT SCOUTS (becouse most of them have 600+ armor allready) "Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you."
jaksol JAK darnson Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.06.11 19:58:00 - [173] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Alldin Kan wrote: Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. **** I almost forgot about this. This would fix a lot of things. caldari main streangth is its shield minmatar main streangth is it mobility "Sacrifice is a choice you make. Loss is a choice made for you."
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 559	Posted - 2014.06.11 20:24:00 - [174] - Quote On the Caldari vs minmatar shield fitting philosophy discussion, I'm sure this will get worked out when they give medium frames a pass (hopefully in the hot fix following bravo). Right now it's more important to get the modules right i.e. making shield modules good enough for shield suits to stop dual tanking (looking at you cal assault). SMG Specialist
Phoenix 85 Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 127	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:45:00 - [175] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. because they cant run like the minmatar can. caldari are more stationary. minmatar can just run away (when possible) Throw a proto kincat on a cal suit and its just as fast. EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT PC VS CONSOLE
Floyd20 Azizora L.O.T.I.S. 58	Posted - 2014.06.11 21:48:00 - [176] - Quote Phoenix 85 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Phoenix 85 wrote: WHY IS IT THAT CALDARI SUITS HAVE STATS BETTER SUITED FOR HIT AND RUN AND THE MOST POTENTIAL SHIELD HP WHEN MINMATAR HAS THE LEAST SHIELD HP AND WEAK REGEN. Seriously, Ive been at this for months now, please fix minmatar suits. CAL should be relying on HP, MIN on regen. Please fix by swaping the layouts on some of the suits (especially assault) as well as swaping their shield recharge delays. because they cant run like the minmatar can. caldari are more stationary. minmatar can just run away (when possible) Throw a proto kincat on a cal suit and its just as fast. cal scout is down a low slot on minmatar. assault dont tend to care, cal logi have a habit of fitting armor plates, heavies dont tend to do anything fast, except mow down stuff in front of it.
RAIDER 04 The Exemplars Top Men. 14	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:08:00 - [177] - Quote Sum1ne Else wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Thunderdome^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^? lol *grabs popcorn No, I'm not doing that again... The Corporate Raiders PAC Endorses Free Tacos Nixon for CPM
RAIDER 04 The Exemplars Top Men. 14	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:10:00 - [178] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: D legendary hero wrote: Energizer's need to be adjusted to 30%, 50%, and 75% respectively. And have their penalty reduced. No. Alldin, you still play? Damn... The Corporate Raiders PAC Endorses Free Tacos Nixon for CPM
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 104	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:11:00 - [179] - Quote not bad but not great, yes the regulators look better and more appealing, but they still don't help when it comes to squad play.. most of the time the cal sentinel will still be better off with plates for the extra healing support they can get from a logi on armour. no shield support means the caldari heavy is not worth repping at it's base armour stats and therefore will always be unaided even in a squad, whereas their opposites the gallente can run logibro tactics. generally speaking a player alone doesn't win vs a full squad. the extender values aren't really gonna do much except for on basic fits. the complex recharger could of done with a little more of a buff I think energisers now look good and I'm glad to see the penalties stay put, not like shield tankers have a lot of hp to spare. trying to reserve judgement for now though I don't think it will be enough. Thank you all for starting to fix shields though
Sum1ne Else G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1191	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:32:00 - [180] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/4935 Correction. One invincible suit. Edit: To clarify I think those percentages are acceptable. But I'd watch the Caldari Sentinel closely after you make this change. Not Really, dont forget this is NOT through battle, unlike armour. What CCP need to work on is this Depleted delay; it rarely is used. If you get hit into armour its not used, similarly if your shields aren't completely gone it will not be used. The number is lower because its a BS stat IMHO. It needs to be once the shields are completely gone then your Depleted Shield Delay would kick in everytime.

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2014.06.11 22:54:00 - [181] - Quote Snake Sellors wrote: not bad but not great, yes the regulators look better and more appealing, but they still don't help when it comes to squad play.. most of the time the cal sentinel will still be better off with plates for the extra healing support they can get from a logi on armour. no shield support means the caldari heavy is not worth repping at it's base armour stats and therefore will always be unaided even in a squad, whereas their opposites the gallente can run logibro tactics. generally speaking a player alone doesn't win vs a full squad. the extender values aren't really gonna do much except for on basic fits. the complex recharger could of done with a little more of a buff I think energisers now look good and I'm glad to see the penalties stay put, not like shield tankers have a lot of hp to spare. trying to reserve judgement for now though I don't think it will be enough. Thank you all for starting to fix shields though 5% buffs won't help. Jerrmy12. Choo Choo
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 333	Posted - 2014.06.11 23:40:00 - [182] - Quote jaksol JAK darnson wrote: caldari main streangth is its shield minmatar main streangth is it mobility Perhaps on the scout but if that is intended to be a true defense for the Minmatar then it is largely lost on the medium and heavy suits. Which would be more useful to a heavy suit, being .5 seconds faster to cover or spending 4 less seconds stuck behind it to recharge shields (which it has less of and recharges less quickly than the Caldari. Minmatar Sentinal Mk.0 Shield 390 Armor 435 Shield Recharge rate 20 Shield Recharge Delay 4.0s Depleted Delay 6s Speed 4.05 Sprint 5.67 Caldari Sentinal Ck.0 Shield 525 Armor 390 Shield Recharge Rate 30 Recharge Delay 4s Depleted Delay 1s Speed 3.85 Sprint 5.39 Conclusion: For .2 speed and .28 sprint speed less than the Minmatar heavy the Caldari heavy gets 6x better depleted recharge delay and 50% better recharge rate with 90 more eHP. If sprinting from cover to cover (say 20m) this means the minmatar will get there .2 seconds faster and, if they lost all their shields, spend 7 more seconds in cover before their shields recharge and have less shields to boot. So explain again to me how "mobility" is supposed to be their asset? Well what about modules you say? Well lets say you play to your races "strengths" so speed for Minmatar and shields for Caldari. Should they go for it the Caldari heavy can get a recharge rate around 100, over 3x their base stat, while the Minmatar can get around 5.8 sprint speed, a paltry .13 better than their base. Say what you want but math says mobility, for medium and heavy frame suits at least, is as useful as a melee damage mods.
Lilith Serenity UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 10	Posted - 2014.06.12 01:56:00 - [183] - Quote I run all Caldari suits except for Heavies, I go Gallente for obvious reasons. I would like to see a small buff to regulators and extenders, like 40/ 60/ 80 for extenders as I never use basic or enhanced due to their pitiful increases compared to ferroscale. A slight reduction to PG/CPU would be great but not necessary but a increase in Caldari Heavy Recharge Rate unbuffed should be increased a bit.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 340	Posted - 2014.06.12 02:37:00 - [184] - Quote Texs Red wrote: jaksol JAK darnson wrote: caldari main streangth is its shield minmatar main streangth is it mobility Perhaps on the scout but if that is intended to be a true defense for the Minmatar then it is largely lost on the medium and heavy suits. Which would be more useful to a heavy suit, being .5 seconds faster to cover or spending 4 less seconds stuck behind it to recharge shields (which it has less of and recharges less quickly than the Caldari. Minmatar Sentinal Mk.0 Shield 390 Armor 435 Shield Recharge rate 20 Shield Recharge Delay 4.0s Depleted Delay 6s Speed 4.05 Sprint 5.67 Caldari Sentinal Ck.0 Shield 525 Armor 390 Shield Recharge Rate 30 Recharge Delay 4s Depleted Delay 1s Speed 3.85 Sprint 5.39 Conclusion: For .2 speed and .28 sprint speed less than the Minmatar heavy the Caldari heavy gets 6x better depleted recharge delay and 50% better recharge rate with 90 more eHP. If sprinting from cover to cover (say 20m) this means the minmatar will get there .2 seconds faster and, if they lost all their shields, spend 7 more seconds in cover before their shields recharge and have less shields to boot. So explain again to me how "mobility" is supposed to be their asset? Well what about modules you say? Well lets say you play to your races "strengths" so speed for Minmatar and shields for Caldari. Should they go for it the Caldari heavy can get a recharge rate around 100, over 3x their base stat, while the Minmatar can get around 5.8 sprint speed, a paltry .13 better than their base. Say what you want but math says mobility, for medium and heavy frame suits at least, is as useful as a melee damage mods. you didnt factor in minmatar stamina minmatar stamina pool and regen allows them to run further, faster, and more often. caldari cant do that. so while caldari need to hide behind cover to let their shields recharge, the minmatar will have simply left the combat zone entirely.


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