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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
555
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Posted - 2014.06.09 20:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think you should follow what KAGEHOSHI describes here
I have done some calculations on the numbers he provided for regulators and they seem to make sense. If you don't feel like reading it's not necessary, but trust me his numbers make sense from math side of things, assuming rechargers are in a good place (which I think they are).
Math.
So for my experiment here I work with Caldari Assault numbers assuming that they use 3 complex shield extenders (480 shield).
So a basic shield enigizer gives 25% bonus. Normally with the shield HP of 480 it would take 16 seconds to recharge. With a basic enigizer, it's down to 12.8. This represents a percent change of 20%. I believe that a basic regulator should balance with recharger. Therefore, a basic regulator should give 20%.
If you do the same math for complex modules you'll find a percent change of 37.5. So let's round up to 40% for complex regulators.
Enhanced falls right in the middle with 30%.
These numbers also fall in line with theorycrafting for potential viable shield tanked Caldari and minmatar suits.
Also I think everyone agrees with him about shield extender tier progression.
I see a ton of noise about what to do with shields; but a lot of people have done real work on this, opposed to randomly throwing numbers out there, and have arrived at what KAGEHOSHI describes.
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
556
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Posted - 2014.06.10 06:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed.
Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade.
A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like.
470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay
This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same.
Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds.
This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots.
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
556
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Posted - 2014.06.10 17:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the **** out of our armor  In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a **** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon.
I fit a gallente on protofits with 500 armor and 200 shields with armor rep of 20 HP/s, two proto precision enhancers, proto weapon, advanced sidearm, and advanced nanohive.
Please keep in mind how tough shield extenders are on PG. In our little comparison the gallente has 100 more HP and the Caldari has zero armor rep. I really think you are over estimating the cal assault in this case. If it's a long range encounter cal assault has advantage but if you met head to head, within the AR range the Caldari is done for. Furthermore armor is always repping, if your engagement lasts just 5 seconds (reasonable for two good players 1v1) then your 100 HP original advantage all the sudden becomes 200 HP advantage.
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
556
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Posted - 2014.06.10 18:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yeah STD and advanced do. What suggestion? In the cal assault numbers I put up, the only thing that has changed is proto regulators to 40%. I'm just trying to have a little debate about whether that would be OP. I think not, clearly.
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
559
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Posted - 2014.06.11 06:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Those numbers look ok but I really think you have to make the regulators stronger. As a shield tanker primarily, I would still be tempted for some armor at only 30% at pro. I will settle for 35%.
Really I don't think people will stack them too much. You gotta remember that one low goes to CPU upgrade to compensate for recharger. Secondly one low should be a repairer (or reactive). The cal assault only has 3 low slots.... My min only has two. (Also why I miss that 1hp/s on my suit which should still be there)
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
559
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Posted - 2014.06.11 20:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
On the Caldari vs minmatar shield fitting philosophy discussion, I'm sure this will get worked out when they give medium frames a pass (hopefully in the hot fix following bravo).
Right now it's more important to get the modules right i.e. making shield modules good enough for shield suits to stop dual tanking (looking at you cal assault).
SMG Specialist
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