DUST Search - [Feedback] Shield Tanking

DeathwindRising wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

DeathwindRising wrote:

if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them

ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases

we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30%

then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%)

I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place.

That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel:

-x2 Complex Shield Extenders
-x2 Complex Shield Energizers
-Complex Shield Regulator
-M1 Locus Grenade
-Boundless HMG
- Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG.

725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds.

If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds.

The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel.

This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered.

so why not dump the delay completely? keep the depleted delay though so that basically your only vulnerble if you completely lose your shields. which isnt hard to do with flux grenades and scrambler rifles


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 5999	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:19:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. As has been previously discussed, I think the optimal levels for Regulators are: STD: 20% ENHANCED: 30% COMPLEX: 40% This gives a good power boost while covering some of the penalty that Shield Extenders provide, giving a lot of encouragement and incentive to use them over armor plates (that is, unless you intend to change the penalty). Shield Extenders themselves could probably use a little bit of a reduction in the PG/CPU (not much) in order to compensate for the fact that armor plating is just so darn easy to fit now (you get more benefit from Ferroscales at less CPU/PG cost atm). If at all possible, change the Shield Extenders to have a better progression. 33/44/66 is the common proposal, if I'm not mistaken. Don't really know enough about Rechargers/Energizers to comment. I'll let others weigh in on that. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6012	Posted - 2014.06.09 18:52:00 - [2] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%) I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place. That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel: -x2 Complex Shield Extenders -x2 Complex Shield Energizers -Complex Shield Regulator -M1 Locus Grenade -Boundless HMG - Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG. 725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds. If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds. The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel. This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6014	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:45:00 - [3] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: if you buff complex regulators to 40% youll get a 1.3 second shield delay when using 3 of them ive seen you guys talking about 75% and higher in some cases we cant buff regulators anymore unless we decide that shield delays of less than a second is ok. and that point we could just make the bonus 100% to shield delay and the bonus to depleted shield delay 20%, 25%, 30% then jack the penalty on extenders even higher (5%, 10%, 15%) I genuinely don't see a problem with these sort of fits for a few reasons. Shields are all about having fast recovery, less down-time at the expense of having less HP. I genuinely don't have a problem with someone having a two second shield recharge delay if it takes less than a second of continuous fire to put them down in the first place. That being said, we already have fits in-game that are more than capable of doing stuff along these lines. Take, for instance, the Caldari Sentinel: -x2 Complex Shield Extenders -x2 Complex Shield Energizers -Complex Shield Regulator -M1 Locus Grenade -Boundless HMG - Kaalakiota MAGsec SMG. 725 shields, 487 armor. 81 HP/sec recharge rate with a depleted delay of only 0.83 seconds. If you min-max the absolute hell out of it with nothing but energizers you can even get some pretty insane recovery rates as high as 135 HP/sec with an even lower depleted delay of 0.73 seconds. The thing you have to consider though is that Shield Extenders don't really provide that much HP to begin with, so they're not exactly amazing on anything other than Scouts. A Sentinel/Commando won't need the HP as much so it's probably better off using Rechargers/Energizers since they're far cheaper on the fitting costs. Doing so nets some pretty interesting results if you know when to break off the engagement and take cover for a few seconds. We're talking <5 seconds to completely recover your shields with a Caldari Sentinel. This is, of course, assuming you don't die in the firefight to begin with, which a lot of players have a problem with because they don't know when to just break off and come back later when they've recovered. so why not dump the delay completely? keep the depleted delay though so that basically your only vulnerble if you completely lose your shields. which isnt hard to do with flux grenades and scrambler rifles It's been considered but let's just take things one step at a time, yeah..? To reason to jump straight to over-powered if we can help it.. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6020	Posted - 2014.06.10 02:30:00 - [4] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: well thats my concern. everyone saying buff regs by 75% or more lol the delay would be like what? .5 seconds when you stack them? thats why im not sure what the goal is here. shield tanking works as INTENDED. the problem is people arent following that and getting frustrated. just buff the delay on regs by 100% and be done with it already. leave the depleted delay alone. boom brand new game changing shield tanking mechanic lol Just so we're clear, 75% would bring a Complex Shield Regulator to about 43% in reduction. That's not much to ask for, honestly. I've previously stated in other discussions that percentage-based modules HAVE to be high because of their self-applied stacking penalty (5 + 50% = 7.5, a 2.5 increase) (7.5+50%=11.25, a 3.75 increase). You also have to consider that there are two shield modules which are self-defeating to the tank in the first place, with Extenders increasing the Shield Depleted Delay and Shield Energizers which reduce the total Shield HP. Both are designed so that shields don't get too crazy. Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. So they're not all that crazy, they just have fast regen - which is what they're designed for - and if it was working as intended there would have been SOMEONE that would have chanced upon the playstyle and used it properly, but there hasn't, in fact, most of the people who -DID- shield tank naturally bled over to Armor Tanking because it was more viable than shield tanking, which is why we're discussing bringing them back up in the first place. It's just important to remember that Shield Tanks have to make sacrifices to fit how they want. They have ultra fast regen at the expense of maximum HP, or they can have moderately high HP at the expense of longer regen. I don't think it's much to ask to just play with some numbers and dial it all back if it's too much. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6028	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:42:00 - [5] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. yea but the caldari sentinel lacks mobility. so its balanced. And the Caldari Scout lacks HP O.o; what's your premise lol Mobility isn't the only way to balance things out. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6038	Posted - 2014.06.11 09:32:00 - [6] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Not enough Complex reg shoukd be 40% Comeplex energizer should be 70% 5% won't make a slightest difference for shield tanking ability. I disagree because Cal Sentinel is really good. Going too crazy on shield regen ability will make it OP. Instead you should change the base values of Caldari mediums and probably Calmando as well. So fix the suit, not the module. There's no reason to impose a change to a module because it would make one suit over-powered when it's delay was already brought into question before it was even released back in 1.8 Shield Regulators -need- to be powerful to encourage their use over plates. Reducing their value "because 'x' will be OP" is foolish and is just going to be replaced by things that are more useful which have already been deemed to be a problem. Unless someone has a better proposal as to how to encourage something other than hybrid-tanking, I don't see a reason why regulators can't be powerful, especially when they benefit the entire point of shield tanking to begin with. To be clear, I'm totally against the new proposed numbers because I don't feel they're enough. If it was brought down to 15/25/35 I'd be more understanding because there's a clear cut advantage to using higher tiers but having a 5% increase on what we already have isn't going to suddenly encourage players to want to use them more. I'd rather have an additional 85 HP than shave off 0.3 seconds off the delay as opposed to what I can do now. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1