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duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2014.06.10 06:57:00 - [61] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol We are tweaking values, are we not? Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 257	Posted - 2014.06.10 07:51:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a one time nanohive that recharges shield.
deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 600	Posted - 2014.06.10 09:02:00 - [63] - Quote I know this probably would not happen but Shield Extenders should be % based instead of HP based. This would allow for suits that are high in shields already to shield tank while high armor suits that start with a lower base shield would have more incentive to use more recharge or energizers assuming those slots are not taken by damage mods. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6028	Posted - 2014.06.10 10:42:00 - [64] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. yea but the caldari sentinel lacks mobility. so its balanced. And the Caldari Scout lacks HP O.o; what's your premise lol Mobility isn't the only way to balance things out. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 331	Posted - 2014.06.10 11:39:00 - [65] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Having played around with some fits using some of proposed stats, I haven't really found anything game-breaking. Even running nothing but Shield Extenders and Shield Regulators, the only suit that really sticks out from the crowd is the Caldari Sentinel with it's 0.73 second depleted delay... Which is exactly what it is with current stats if you decide to fore-go the shield extenders and go for a 135 HP/sec recharge build. The Caldari Assault is looks very promising but it's limited on CPU/PG in some cases. To get 553 Shield HP with a 2.85 recharge delay, I had to fit a complex CPU Upgrade. yea but the caldari sentinel lacks mobility. so its balanced. And the Caldari Scout lacks HP O.o; what's your premise lol Mobility isn't the only way to balance things out. im saying that because the sentinel cant get away he'll lose his shields from quick attacks from cover, since his actual delay isnt short enough. the scout doesnt have that problem. with two complex regulators its normal shield delay is 1.43 seconds. thats faster than most reloads and one complex shield recharge gives it 74.15 hp/s with 380 shield hp using three complex extenders. its also fitting a proto rail rifle. the limited hp pool is offset by high mobility, short normal delays, and the suits own native scan bonuses. it really depends on what you want to do with each suit. what you cant do however no matter how hard you try is win a straight up fight against a armor tanked suit using a shield tanked suit. you dont have the hp/damage ratio for that kind of fight
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2562	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:19:00 - [66] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol We are tweaking values, are we not? No. 80% is nowhere near a tweak. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2405	Posted - 2014.06.10 12:52:00 - [67] - Quote Other ideas: -Extenders increase base (or total) shield HP by a % in addition to what they add. -Could rechargers be completely changed to rep a single rep/absolute amount after a delay, but then not affect base recharge after that? So it'd be something like 50/75/100 per recharger?
Jacques Cayton II Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 833	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:18:00 - [68] - Quote Shield extenders need lower cpu/PG and enhanced need to be up to 44. ( I personally think that shield extenders need a slight hp increase since a basic plate has a ton more then a complex extender). Regulators are fine except complex needs to be brought up to 40 or 50 and with this change base enhanced off of the complex. Also lower the cpu/pg. Rechargers need to be brought up to energizer levels and energizers need to be brought more due to the damage to hp. Also cpu needs to be toned down also. Just my .02 isk We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 13:38:00 - [69] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2409	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:13:00 - [70] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. Technically, your bleeding body is like your hull. More people should be walking around with injectors picking people up. Since people don't consider injectors as important it isn't as much of a consideration.

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 331	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:22:00 - [71] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. perhaps new damage mods that work only against shields or armor but with a higher damage bonus? especially since thats what they did already to the proficiency skills and this is all kinda off track, but what the melee damage mod included a bonus to movement speed? to offset the penalties from armor plates complex regulators with 40% to shield delay but 25% to depleted shield delay? honestly, why would you be letting your shields go to zero in the first place unless youre armor tanking?
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:55:00 - [72] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. perhaps new damage mods that work only against shields or armor but with a higher damage bonus? especially since thats what they did already to the proficiency skills and this is all kinda off track, but what the melee damage mod included a bonus to movement speed? to offset the penalties from armor plates complex regulators with 40% to shield delay but 25% to depleted shield delay? honestly, why would you be letting your shields go to zero in the first place unless youre armor tanking? Honestly I will be happy if kin cats were moved to high slots and got their PG requirements cut back. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10262	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:56:00 - [73] - Quote If PG upgrades got moved to high slots too that would be eternal bliss for me. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 94	Posted - 2014.06.10 15:59:00 - [74] - Quote small buff to rechargers, large decrease to cpu reqs all round, and regulators need to do the job of a logi for shields, otherwise the armour mods will be better for anyone in a squad with a logi bro.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 741	Posted - 2014.06.10 16:45:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. I mostly agree with KAGEHOSHI's plan, but here's what I would like. [Shield extenders] HP & depleted penalty STD:22 HP & 0% ADV:44 HP & 4% PRO:66 HP & 8% The progression between tiers is 22 HP with a 4% penalty and standard extenders would find more use as cheap shield HP without penalties. [Shield regulators] Decrease in shield recharge delays. STD15% ADV25% PRO35% Worth the fitting costs and not too strong. [Shield rechargers] Increase in recharge rate. STD15% ADV30% PRO45% Consistent 15% increase between tiers. [Shield energizers] Increase in recharge rate. STD25% ADV45% PRO65% Consistent 20% increase in shield recharge rate and penalty 2% increase between tiers. Here's a table for my shield regulator values (will have spreadsheets in a few days): Effects on Caldari assault to check usefulness (Shield regulation lv5) Recharge delays Default = 5s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________4.18s___3.56s___3.22s ADV___________3.63s___2.73s___2.30s PRO___________3.08s___2.01s___1.57s Depleted recharge delays Default = 6s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________5.01s___4.27s___3.87s ADV___________4.35s___3.28s___2.76s PRO___________3.69s___2.42s___1.89s MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 556	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:37:00 - [76] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. I fit a gallente on protofits with 500 armor and 200 shields with armor rep of 20 HP/s, two proto precision enhancers, proto weapon, advanced sidearm, and advanced nanohive. Please keep in mind how tough shield extenders are on PG. In our little comparison the gallente has 100 more HP and the Caldari has zero armor rep. I really think you are over estimating the cal assault in this case. If it's a long range encounter cal assault has advantage but if you met head to head, within the AR range the Caldari is done for. Furthermore armor is always repping, if your engagement lasts just 5 seconds (reasonable for two good players 1v1) then your 100 HP original advantage all the sudden becomes 200 HP advantage. SMG Specialist
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10267	Posted - 2014.06.10 17:52:00 - [77] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Personally i see no problems with a Caldari Assault reaching 600 shields with a 1.6 second delay with a rate of 50, or a HP of 400 with a delay of 1.6 and a rate of 116, OR 600/300 HPs, with a delay of 8 or 10, with a rate of 50. That kind of makes the Gallente Assault useless... That's 200 more shields than I have armor, 40/30~ more HP/s, all for a tiny little 1.6 seconds delay. Or same HP with 100 less HP/s. You have to consider speed as a factor, plating without ferroscales is expensive to your speed, if a Cal Assault can achieve similar (or in this case better) results without any speed penalty, that's simply imbalanced. Here are a few common Gal Assault fits for Hotfix Alpha (Numbers aren't 100% accurate, but very close): 420 armor / 11hp/s / 8.23m/s - Very PG heavy 420 armor / 20hp/s / 7.35m/s - Very PG heavy 510 armor / 11hp/s / 7.35m/s - Medium PG 504 armor / 20hp/s / 6.77m/s - Medium / High PG 410 armor / 30hp/s / 6.9m/s - Very high PG AND CPU This should give you a ball park of the relationship between armor, repair and speed. Those numbers for the Caldari Assault would not be achievable without a ridiculous buff to shield extenders. Not to mention that shield recharger practically require one low for a CPU upgrade. A more reasonable Caldari Assault would look like. 470 shield / 48hp/s with a 1.75 delay This assumes that complex regulator gets buffed to 40% and extenders and recharger at pro remains the same. Does that balance with the gallente assault? Hmm ideally heavy regen shields repair twice as fast as heavy regen armor. So for your gallente it would be around 20 seconds (20 hp/s * 20s = 400 hp). For that Caldari Assault it would be 11.75 seconds. This seems OK to me once you factor in the shield as a buffer on armor tankers and the ability for damage mods in high slots. It doesn't to me considering shield tankers have an armor buffer to save their asses, where as armor tankers don't have a clear time to GTFO since we are fighting with our last line of defense. One of the many reasons people don't hull tank in EVE. We're talking about a Gallente suit here bud, we are supposed to repair the ** out of our armor In addition, damage mods are bad, shield extenders give much better results... So... We are practically forced to dual tank because there are no worthwhile utility modules. And lastly, that CPU extender doesn't just help you shield tank. All my Caldari fits have proto light weapons, sidearms, grenades, equipment, all because I have a ** ton of CPU left over. My Gallente fits are lucky to have a proto light weapon. I fit a gallente on protofits with 500 armor and 200 shields with armor rep of 20 HP/s, two proto precision enhancers, proto weapon, advanced sidearm, and advanced nanohive. Please keep in mind how tough shield extenders are on PG. In our little comparison the gallente has 100 more HP and the Caldari has zero armor rep. I really think you are over estimating the cal assault in this case. If it's a long range encounter cal assault has advantage but if you met head to head, within the AR range the Caldari is done for. Furthermore armor is always repping, if your engagement lasts just 5 seconds (reasonable for two good players 1v1) then your 100 HP original advantage all the sudden becomes 200 HP advantage. Edit : Oh and in a real fight, the gallente still holds and advantage to brawl with multiple enemies. Shield tankers get screwed really fast if they get caught with their pants down and can't break fire. Trust me it happens all the time. You do know that I'm comparing it to a suggestion and not current numbers? Your fit will be completely outdone by the suggestion I'm arguing against. I actually think that Prototype Gallente Assault = Prototype Caldari Assault, and that only STD and ADV needs some help. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Boot Booter Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 556	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:10:00 - [78] - Quote Yeah STD and advanced do. What suggestion? In the cal assault numbers I put up, the only thing that has changed is proto regulators to 40%. I'm just trying to have a little debate about whether that would be OP. I think not, clearly. SMG Specialist
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:20:00 - [79] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. I mostly agree with KAGEHOSHI's plan, but here's what I would like. [Shield extenders] HP & depleted penalty STD:22 HP & 0% ADV:44 HP & 4% PRO:66 HP & 8% The progression between tiers is 22 HP with a 4% penalty and standard extenders would find more use as cheap shield HP without penalties. [Shield regulators] Decrease in shield recharge delays. STD15% ADV25% PRO35% terrible and still underpowered Worth the fitting costs and not too strong. [Shield rechargers] Increase in recharge rate. STD15% ADV30% PRO45% fine Consistent 15% increase between tiers. [Shield energizers] Increase in recharge rate. STD25% ADV45% PRO65% change to 75% and we're good Consistent 20% increase in shield recharge rate and penalty 2% increase between tiers. Here's a table for my shield regulator values (will have spreadsheets in a few days): Effects on Caldari assault to check usefulness (Shield regulation lv5) Recharge delays Default = 5s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________4.18s___3.56s___3.22s ADV___________3.63s___2.73s___2.30s PRO___________3.08s___2.01s___1.57s Depleted recharge delays Default = 6s Regulators used__1______2______3 STD___________5.01s___4.27s___3.87s ADV___________4.35s___3.28s___2.76s PRO___________3.69s___2.42s___1.89s Jerrmy12 Banned, reason, hotfix alpha thread. No joke, the reason was a devs first post, I was linked to the first post.
Meee One BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 833	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:26:00 - [80] - Quote Another possible tweak would be to have weapons' specialisation mean something. As all weapons currently stand,they all annihilate shields and armor. Make RRs 50%-60% vs shields and 93% armor (before specialisation). And make shotguns do 110% vs shield but 65% vs armor,scouts equipped with shotguns would then have to carry a weapon to compensate for its weakness instead of having a "i kill all in 3 shots" button. And do similar for all other weapons. This way shields can be competitive vs some weapons but weak vs others. And the same for armor. It would also mean your weapon choice counts,beyond "derp moar damage".

D3LTA iKidd'YuNOT D3LTA FORC3 C0VEN 2	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:33:00 - [81] - Quote We have a poor amount of cover available in most engagements. While away from cover we pretty much sustain constant fire which give our shield no time to even start healing. This coupled with the fact that you have alot less hp than the armor tankers makes us insta dead in seconds. Also even if we are lucky enough to get to cover... with the long wait to start recharging our shields the armor tankers always close the gap to finish us off while regenerating thier armor at the same time. I can see the model of the Caldari Sentinel being used more widely in Dust for shield tankers. But for it to work shield tankers a higher base to start from. But even then my Proto Caldari Sentinel dies far too quickly unless I am far away with cover and especially against other heavies.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1837	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:36:00 - [82] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: you guys clearly don't understand what in the hell a tweak is lol Actually, its about time we start migrating away from the ignorance that "tweak" must mean "small". This notion is arbitrary, misinformed, and if we categorically refuse to allow Rattati to adjust a value by more than 10% we're only going to shoot ourselves in the foot and slow down progress. In fact - when balancing a game system, one of the fastest methods of arriving at a proper value is to either double or halve it, observe, and either double again, or split the difference between the doubled/halved value and the original. A small series of doubling or halving a value (with observation in between) is actually one of most efficient ways to arrive at the proper number in the least amount of adjustments. Likewise, applying this methodology for every project is equally arbitrary. It at least illustrates that when an element of the game is dramatically underpowered or overpowered, tweaking by 5% or 10% only as a matter of dogma can actually interfere with a designers ability to quickly arrive at the best value, as they may end up performing twice the number of adjustments than if they had just been bold to begin with. We have a major advantage here guys - a rapid patch framework and CCP staff willing to adjust constantly until a system is polished. There's no need to be so ridiculously conservative that we fail to recognize that 5% or 10% just isn't going to cut it for a lot of adjustments that need to be made.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1838	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:46:00 - [83] - Quote D3LTA iKidd'YuNOT wrote: We have a poor amount of cover available in most engagements. While away from cover we pretty much sustain constant fire which give our shield no time to even start healing. This coupled with the fact that you have alot less hp than the armor tankers makes us insta dead in seconds. Also even if we are lucky enough to get to cover... with the long wait to start recharging our shields the armor tankers always close the gap to finish us off while regenerating thier armor at the same time. I can see the model of the Caldari Sentinel being used more widely in Dust for shield tankers. But for it to work shield tankers a higher base to start from. But even then my Proto Caldari Sentinel dies far too quickly unless I am far away with cover and especially against other heavies. I agree, and its why I'm rather bullish about quick recharge times on shield tanking setups. I see a lot of people nervous about several second recovery times, but realistically it just isn't that hard to finish off whatever armor is underneath once you've punched through (assuming we are willing to take on the fitting costs needed discourage dualtanking). I think its perfectly fine to expect players to adjust their play to compensate, and learn that when fighting a shield-tanking opponent the emphasis needs to be on controlling both accuracy and the pace you empty your clip and ensure you can finish a job you've started. For the same reason, I really think that unilaterally buffing extenders across the board is folly - there needs to be a balance to this quick recovery time, and keeping shield buffers to reasonable levels is necessary. If the map design were different, I'd feel different too of course. But there is still a lot of open ground , and I think its reasonable to shape shield tanking such that even short periods of broken line of sight can be valuable in self-defense against a superior-armored foe.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1839	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:01:00 - [84] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: Shield extenders need lower cpu/PG and enhanced need to be up to 44. ( I personally think that shield extenders need a slight hp increase since a basic plate has a ton more then a complex extender). Regulators are fine except complex needs to be brought up to 40 or 50 and with this change base enhanced off of the complex. Also lower the cpu/pg. I'm very worried about lowering the fitting requirements, especially the powergrid on extenders. In fact, I'd argue the opposite instead. Granted, there's a lot of base fitting pools on the suits themselves that are still in need of adjustment (so I'm sure someone will point out how this breaks one fit or another) but I really think its about time we build more of a fitting bottleneck into both extenders and plates, as this is really the root cause of dualtanking. People brick because they can. Without making the system excessively complex with more penalties on all sorts of modules, one of the few ways we can really end bricktanking is by creating a bottleneck. Now especially since extenders are one of the few modules that takes up any powergrid at all, and they're the culprit when we're investigating extreme buffers, to me it makes the most sense to make their powergrid the value that competes directly with plating your suit as well. I'm sure I'll be crucified for suggesting this, but I really think that one of the best things we can do in revising tanking is to use the power of the fitting allowance to force more of a choice when deciding what approach to take when creating a fit.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2414	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:12:00 - [85] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Jacques Cayton II wrote: Shield extenders need lower cpu/PG and enhanced need to be up to 44. ( I personally think that shield extenders need a slight hp increase since a basic plate has a ton more then a complex extender). Regulators are fine except complex needs to be brought up to 40 or 50 and with this change base enhanced off of the complex. Also lower the cpu/pg. I'm very worried about lowering the fitting requirements, especially the powergrid on extenders. In fact, I'd argue the opposite instead. Granted, there's a lot of base fitting pools on the suits themselves that are still in need of adjustment (so I'm sure someone will point out how this breaks one fit or another) but I really think its about time we build more of a fitting bottleneck into both extenders and plates, as this is really the root cause of dualtanking. People brick because they can. Without making the system excessively complex with more penalties on all sorts of modules, one of the few ways we can really end bricktanking is by creating a bottleneck. Now especially since extenders are one of the few modules that takes up any powergrid at all, and they're the culprit when we're investigating extreme buffers, to me it makes the most sense to make their powergrid the value that competes directly with plating your suit as well. I'm sure I'll be crucified for suggesting this, but I really think that one of the best things we can do in revising tanking is to use the power of the fitting allowance to force more of a choice when deciding what approach to take when creating a fit. What do you think about, rather than adjusting PG on extenders, instead, adding a max PG penalty for them?
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 501	Posted - 2014.06.10 19:38:00 - [86] - Quote Meee One wrote: Another possible tweak would be to have weapons' specialisation mean something. As all weapons currently stand,they all annihilate shields and armor. Make RRs 50%-60% vs shields and 93% armor (before specialisation). And make shotguns do 110% vs shield but 65% vs armor,scouts equipped with shotguns would then have to carry a weapon to compensate for its weakness instead of having a "i kill all in 3 shots" button. And do similar for all other weapons. This way shields can be competitive vs some weapons but weak vs others. And the same for armor. It would also mean your weapon choice counts,beyond "derp moar damage". Or you can remove that variable and make the game easier to balance and encounters less random.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 258	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:45:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 258	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:48:00 - [88] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive You could shield tank with no rechargers standing in these like a armor plate tank with no reps in a armor rep nanohive.
Floyd20 Azizora L.O.T.I.S. 50	Posted - 2014.06.10 21:27:00 - [89] - Quote the big problem is trying not to make hybrid tanking better. armor tanks need something useful for high slots besides the massively nerfed damage mods and shield extenders
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1357	Posted - 2014.06.10 22:13:00 - [90] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: Luther Mandrix wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: As announced, we want to tweak all aspects of shield tanking so it becomes viable. I don't foresee any boosting of Extender hp, but their progression is up for discussion. However, we really want regulators and rechargers to be competitive choices to Armor. Most anything is on the table, PG/CPU, recharge delay, depleted recharge delay, recharge rates etc. Even CPU upgrades to get more CPU for those hard to fit regulators. Your proposals must be tweaks, nothing game altering and have to be focused on fixing shield tanking, without making hybrid tanking an even better choice. How about a shield hive that acts like a Recharge mod like in a suit so when a shielded player that has damage goes over it ,his base valves of shield recharge are jack up higher like a additional slot mod. Once activated will self destruct in x amount of time. This could be the shield rep nanohive You could shield tank with no rechargers standing in these like a armor plate tank with no reps in a armor rep nanohive. And, most importantly, an armor tank could do the same, partially defeating the whole "make shields more viable against armor" since the recharged shield synergizes well with armor reps while the inverse is generally not the case. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...



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