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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2102	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:52:00 - [1] - Quote This morning we had a meeting with CCP, and during this meeting we were essentially given some homework. One of the things we railed pretty hard on was an emphatic urging that the old promise of a rollover system was sorely needed, The cap puts us in a bad spot, and we wanted people to have a way to rip down the barriers of segregation the cap creates between new and old players. So, the purpose of this thread is to collect player thoughts and proposals about how to rework the system. What is the best way to introduce a "catch up" mechanic? SP Rollover, No cap until X SP, No cap at all? Something else? The ball is in our court as players to propose to CCP the best way to move forward with this, so the CPM is coming to you guys in order to decide our play. If linking another thread : Please summarize (Or quote the OP) to allow for reasonable discussion and/or easy linking to CCP in future to say "In X post Y player said Z, and people liked/disliked it"
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4971	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:53:00 - [2] - Quote SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 971	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:54:00 - [3] - Quote coming soon...post in process... GÇá Havok Core - Closed Beta Corp - Accepting Applications Here GÇá CEO // [email protected]
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 662	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:56:00 - [4] - Quote SooTM !
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 496	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:02:00 - [5] - Quote No Cap. None, zilch, nada ever. Also acceptable, add up all the points for all the weeks someone could have capped but didn't and set the cap to that number of missed points plus a weekly total. *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 425	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:04:00 - [6] - Quote with the no skill levels beyond 5 system anyone can catch up to the older players by specializing as the older players hit the ceiling and expand horizontally until they get diabetes. However unlike eve this game does not have the game mechanics that allow player interaction to overcome sp gaps and the game boils down to do you know the best 16 people in game and are you one of them. This can only be fixed by implementing new game modes/expanded hardware/interacting instances, I don't believe the cap needs raised although eve did raise the starting sp and dust may not hurt from raising the starting sp as well. Though I would recommend if that were to happen to give everyone currently existing the raised amount as well. The more important thing however that I would like to see is turning the currently weekly cap into you gain 1/7th of the current active sp cap and you have 7 days until it expires. This would remove the sacred Wednesday cap reset into something that allows you to take a few days breather and then catch up. I wouldn't complain if the expiration date was up to 2 or 3 weeks. Sure this system could be gamed to allow people to take advantage of 1-3 day boosters to grind out the cap, not that they didn't anyway, but on the other side that is more money for ccp to develop the game to get pve in and I can take a vacation without worrying about the evil that is Wednesday downtime.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2102	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:04:00 - [7] - Quote Personally, I'm a strong supporter of the rollover system, but if given the choice I would much prefer no cap at all. While this may encourage some heavy farming by some, for the most part we shouldn't need to fear exploiting too much with the new system CCP Greyscale has tossed out that limits WP/time, which was the largest concern with having no cap. I feel that any cap (However large it may be) sends the message "After X point you should stop playing our game and do something else." which I feel is a pretty silly message to send to your loyal customers. As a gamer, I have absolutely hated the "You cannot pass GO until Z timer expires" prevalent in many F2P games. Further, limited progression implies that progression itself is the entire goal of the game (Which until we get some actual content, it kind of is) and I think that is incredibly wrong. SP shouldn't be the primary focus of the game. SP and progression should be something secondary that happens naturally as someone is enjoying the other content, in my opinion. While we enjoy a (sort of) soft cap rather than an abrupt stop to progression, that is almost worse in my opinion. With the soft cap players are still rewarded for grinding, but trying to eke out progression one match at a time can be nothing short of painful after one hits their cap. Even if players do not approve of removing the cap entirely, I think it is very important that however this system is revamped, a day 1 player should be able to catch up to someone who has been playing for months, if that new player wants to grind like a madman while the "vet" is only playing an hour or so a day.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 658	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote As one of these players never seem to cap out unless I have a few days off in a row, I favour the SP Rollover system, so I'm not penalised for having a full time job. But with some players having in excess of 32 million SP (and fair play to them for having ground that out) the SP gap between vets and new players needs to be considered also. Untill Scotty the AI gets enough players for him to keep the pro's from the new players we should give them a chance to catch up a bit. I'd suggest no skill cap for 90 days or till, as an example, 5m career SP for new players . That should enable them to spec up fairly well. Mercenary Clone of Dennie Fleetfoot CEO of DUST University
David Spd Caldari State 88	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:22:00 - [9] - Quote I would like to see a removal of the cap unti a cetain amount of SP is acquired, then put the rollover system in place. That way you can play a lot to expeience the game when you're new (or get an alt with more SP faster) and continue to be rewarded. People with more SP can still make use f what they earn but not as rapdly. I would also like to see a system that allows us to put earned SP into a "lock" so that we can't spend ituntil we reach a number we set. Too hard to sit on large amounts of SP for that big skill when I have others that tempt me so. Also a bit off-topic but didn't CCP say they would consider having passive SP on all characters? Would that be worth asking into? --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 256	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:23:00 - [10] - Quote Whenever you go to the whiteboard and come back with a complicated scheme from one of the most hated industries in the world, you need to re-think your strategy. The best solution to the SP cap is to remove it entirely. You earn what you earn, and that's it. Simple. As far as a catch-up mechanic... the game already has them built in: Boosters. Give new players 1 month's worth of active and passive boosters. That's enough training to get into a decent ADV suit. It can also lead to increased revenue after they use their last free booster and see the decline in SP gain.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1808	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. My friend Arkena beat me to the punch on this one, +1 to the above. 0.02 ISK Cross
xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 99	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote Leave the cap. Just give us a roll over system or a global max SP cap, so that new players are able to keep grinding up to the current max, and people that are on holiday for 1-2 weeks are still able to "catch up" if they are that way inclined. With FW giving people the option of farming LP rather than SP, I don't see any weight to the argument of "people will stop playing if they hit the cap".
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 841	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:27:00 - [13] - Quote I like the idea of a bonus SP pool that grows at the same rate as passive SP, and is sped up by boosters. The pool will fill over time and never be reset so if you leave for 6 months you have 6 months worth of passive SP as well as a bonus SP pool worth 6 months of caps, though you still have to play to get it. This means it is continuous, no downtime reset. New players can start with 5 mil bonus SP to start so it will be awhile before they ever hit their cap. This will mean that those who play a lot will have a maximum amount of SP they can make and those who don't have the opportunity to catch up. It still requires the grind but no SP is wasted. This also prevents people from powering through two caps with a 3 day booster. Not to mention you can't waste any potential SP from an active booster either. A dev was talking about this in a previous post I don't have the time to find, it sounded like a great idea. It's great because I don't have to worry about capping while I'm busy at school and work, and doesn't limit me when I decide to play for long periods during break. IMO this is the best idea. CCP may want people playing, but as someone who took a break it's not a bad idea to make people feel like they can take a break for a couple of weeks without losing something. People will be more likely to come back if they don't leave burnt out. The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war. SoonGäó514
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4979	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:33:00 - [14] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. My friend Arkena beat me to the punch on this one, +1 to the above. 0.02 ISK Cross Oh my word, it's you! Welcome back! EDIT: Also, you can put your '0.02 isk - Cross' tag in your sig now. Check the settings bar at the top of the page. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Waruiko DUST G I A N T EoN. 138	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:53:00 - [15] - Quote SP roll over with active boosters being worth Xsp rather then X days Like if you were sitting on 10000 sp in your cap and you used a 20000 sp booster you could use 5000 now, 10000 next week, take the next week off and finish the week after with the last 5000 If blood and sweat don't teach them perhaps time will
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 342	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:58:00 - [16] - Quote I would be in favor of a diminishing returns scheme of active SP accrual. The idea is that game design sits down and says how many SPs they think their median active player should be earning for their content-strategy to work out long-term. Below this threshold SP accrual is quick with a high SP/WP and SP/matchtime ratio. The closer the gained SP of the last 7 days gets to the threshold the lower these ratios get, making SP accrual more time consuming. Beyond the threshold these ratios slowly approach zero, never becoming zero exactly, but decreasing returns the more the player exceeds what game-design originally intended. Here's an example: Consider you've been away from home for 7 days. The active SP you accrued during this time is zero. Not a worry, CCP recently released roll-over-SP for Dust. During your first games you earn 2 SP/second of matchtime and 5 SP for each WP you earn in the match. This pays out handsomely for the first couple of games. After a number of games, or perhaps the next day, you start to notice that SP accrual starts to slow down. At some point you're only getting 1 SP/second and 1 SP/WP. This is the ratio we currently have in the game. Nevertheless you're enjoying yourself with those black eagle suits and you keep playing more than the average player does. This is where you notice things getting progressively slower. At some point you'll only earn 0.5 SP/second of matchtime or even less, and even your WP only earn you 0.5 SP/WP. I could whip up some nice degressive curves if I was a game designer, but I'll leave this as homework for the guys at CCP. I hope the concept is clear: Motivate players to turn on the game and get in a couple of games with large incentives at the start of the active SP pool, but stop people from chewing through all the content by handing out fewer skillpoints when the player starts to leave the rest of the community behind. Important thing to note: In this model playing more always grants more rewards. The reward per effort ratio is just not constant but asymptotically approaches zero for a very large amount of SP earned per 7 days.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 180	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:05:00 - [17] - Quote Why not just make active sp accumulate into a pool like the passive sp? Boosters increase the rate. This pool carries over indefinitely. This way people cannot abuse active booster like now (getting 2 weeks for one seven day booster). CCP makes more monies, the playerbase is happy, everyone wins. an easy fix to Matchmaking
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2297	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:07:00 - [18] - Quote I voted for a rollover system and I regret that decision. What I would like to see however is a Rollover SP or Banked SP system that has a cap on it. I understand not everyone wants to play Dust all the time, people go on vacation, have lives, play other games etc., but I don't see why we should reward players for not playing the game. In eve passive SP is only gained if one is paying their subscription. There is no possible to way for a new player in EVE to go and grind out a 150m+ toon. Why are we trying to make it so in Dust? In EVE there are always bigger fish and I think that's something we've lost sight of in Dust. "Bigger fish" is a misleading term anyways. In regards to "catching up with the pros" I strongly believe this is a myth supported by players who do not want to acknowledge that the reason they get stomped is not because there are people with more SP and better gear but because there are people who are just better than them. I have 30m SP right now. I was as strong as I was ever going to be on my main fit 15m SP ago. The rest is just luxury - new toys and expensive vehicles that don't put me any more ahead of the pack when it comes to 1v1 encounters. When I have 60m SP I won't be any stronger than I am today in my Templar Assault with my Templar ScR. My point is that if you don't play the game, and don't invest the time into it, you shouldn't get the same rewards as the people who do just for showing up once in a while. What I propose is that we limit the amount of SP eligible for the rollover system. This could be somewhere around 1 million SP players could grind out if they quit dust for a couple months, have busy work weeks, go on vacation, etc. It doesn't punish players for taking short breaks from the game but also it doesn't allow players who abandon the game for extended periods of time to come back without consequence. tl;dr 1mil max SP rollover on active SP doesn't punish short breaks and encourages people to actually play -ê HellsGÇáorm Director -ê `Gû¦Amarr VictorGû¦`
I-Shayz-I I-----I 1357	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:12:00 - [19] - Quote I would like some sort of "rested" system like they have in other MMOs in combination with whatever system ends up being in place. For instance, every X hours of not playing gives you Y amount of bonus sp that can be earned the next time you play. Active boosters can be used on top of this too. This way casual players who can't play for 48 hours will be treated to a nice bonus the next time they log in and will still be able to compete skill level-wise with players that were able to play constantly through those 48 hours. Links: List of Important Topics I make logistics videos!
RAMB0 Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:37:00 - [20] - Quote All passive should be removec from the game because it encourages AFK. Last week there was at least 3 people each mach on each team AFKing.

Eris Ernaga State Patriots 691	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:53:00 - [21] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: This morning we had a meeting with CCP, and during this meeting we were essentially given some homework. One of the things we railed pretty hard on was an emphatic urging that the old promise of a rollover system was sorely needed, The cap puts us in a bad spot, and we wanted people to have a way to rip down the barriers of segregation the cap creates between new and old players. So, the purpose of this thread is to collect player thoughts and proposals about how to rework the system. What is the best way to introduce a "catch up" mechanic? SP Rollover, No cap until X SP, No cap at all? Something else? The ball is in our court as players to propose to CCP the best way to move forward with this, so the CPM is coming to you guys in order to decide our play. If linking another thread : Please summarize (Or quote the OP) to allow for reasonable discussion and/or easy linking to CCP in future to say "In X post Y player said Z, and people liked/disliked it" You can't just catch up we have had to grind our sp just like newer players do CCP can start by removing the sp sinks because they're everywhere. Hoping I read this post right and you're suggesting new players get a way to catch up to older players and changing the sp system in general? Ba bang baby
Sirpidey Adtur Aloren Foundations 102	Posted - 2013.11.13 21:27:00 - [22] - Quote A few options that haven't been mentioned. Half-rollover. As in HALF of the remaining sp cap rolls over into next week. This means that at no time a player can have more than 2 weeks of cap remaining, so those who can't play one week aren't AS screwed. Double passive SP and remove the cap entirely (change SP gained from a match to simply WP earned). This brings it closer to EVE, yet still gives a small bonus to those who do play. I'd like to mention that I have personally never reached cap, and before I can make an informed decision about what is actually best for the playerbase, I'd need to see statistics on how many people actually REACH cap in a week. More important than fixing the cap though, is removing worthless skills, and empty levels.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1751	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:04:00 - [23] - Quote I'd say have a roll over SP pool, but reduce active SP by 50% and increase passive SP to compensate. That'd reduce the grind quite a bit.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 2007	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:36:00 - [24] - Quote There's also the possibility of reducing the need to 'grind SP' at all. Why not halve the amount of active SP we get per week and how fast we gain it by 25%, and put all that SP into passive? Then essentially we're playing for ISK, and I think CCP should focus around ISK, not SP. I really like how in EVE you only have to manage which skills you want to learn and not grind it out. Should be mostly the same here. So essentially, we'll get about 95k SP worth of active SP per week. This will be rolled over, with no cap on how much active SP you can accumulate. We increase the difficulty of earning SP. Instead of 5SP/second in-game, make it 4SP/second. Overall, it will still be easier to reach the new halved active cap. Now, that other 95k we lost worth of active SP should be distributed over a week's worth of passive SP. Finally, focus on making many different ways of earning ISK in-game. The player market, PvE, more interesting contracts (gamemodes), etc. ISK should be more important than SP. "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1520	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:44:00 - [25] - Quote IDC about the cap. I never cap any way, so I don't give a faq. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Turkevich Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 95	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:58:00 - [26] - Quote I like the idea of an active SP bank that can be drawn from once you cap. I think all new players should start with a small amount (1-2 million) in that bank to allow them to "catch up" with veterans. After that I think that the only way players could deposit into that bank would be CCP events or AUR items. The bank should cap at 2 million or so to prevent people from crying about pay to win. They will anyway... All 2x and 3x SP events which raise the cap today should deposit into that bank instead. That way a player who takes a break could come back and have a nice pool to grind through.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 74	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:10:00 - [27] - Quote If you can combine Stefan Stahl 's , Iskandar Zul Karnain's and I-Shayz-I's proposals then I believe there is a fair solution to the problem . " Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .
Templar 10 The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 22	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:12:00 - [28] - Quote As i see it this game requires a cap i dont no how much but i would decrease the cap personally and as some one said earlyer make it so that new players get active booster points untill 3 - 4m sp or some thing once above 15m sp cap goes down to 100k a week thus meaning your less likly to stomp on the newer players between 4 and 10m sp you should have a weekly cap of 200 - 300k sp after 15 it drops to 100k a week. thats my opinion how ever if dust was to take what eve is like i think at a guess i cantrember the last time i really looked into it to buisy minning and making stuff usually. I belive eve is 2m sp a month on passive make dust match that. How ever the Cap is needed most definatly no roll overs no respecs unless nessesary ie new suits guns and what not. how ever im more inclined to say make a respec spicific for exsample new dropsuits refund points only to dropsuits if the player has requested it and make it open for a month only. On the other hand i would rather no respecs ever you made your bed lie in it.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 1727	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:13:00 - [29] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97788 This was my suggestion some long time ago for how the cap should be changed - essentially a global cap based on the highest total SP that a player could reach if they capped every week since closed beta (since that was the last SP reset). Boosters would still allow players to gain extra SP towards that global cap but to be honest, if you reach that cap, you're probably not really needing boosters anymore anyway. Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
Denidil Taureran Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 52	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:44:00 - [30] - Quote Put me in the "Rollover or remove" camp. (And i support increasing passive SP)

Zero Notion Wraith Company 339	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:52:00 - [31] - Quote No cap. The game is always going to be limited in the type of content that it can provide due to the genre/type of game that it falls into, especially in regards to how it will impact New Eden while remaining a FPS War Simulation. Removing the cap keeps players interested and rewarded. I want to keep playing the game and I want to be rewarded for doing so. Players who play more will rise ahead of the curve but that's just how life works. Remove boosters or change the mechanics in how they work. They wouldn't need boosters if they offer more cosmetic choices anyway. The cap is awful. We don't need rollover.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 206	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:55:00 - [32] - Quote My favourite option which is unlikely to ever happen is to remove active SP entirely. Put all SP accumulation into passive. That'd make a rollover unnecessary, remove AFK farming and make battles about Isk and winning rather than warpoints and SP. This is probably too big a change alas. Some more suggestions (not all of which are compatible with each other): -Reduce in-battle passive SP and increase in-battle active SP to discourage AFKing. -Increase the in-battle SP in general so "capping out" isn't so much of a grind. -Rollover (trickle type rather than weekly). As some people have said we need to change the in battle emphasis from earning SP to earning Isk. One part of achieving this is something to spend large amounts of isk on. Something like MCCs or industrial operations or whatever.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 511	Posted - 2013.11.14 01:01:00 - [33] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: My favourite option which is unlikely to ever happen is to remove active SP entirely. Put all SP accumulation into passive. That'd make a rollover unnecessary, remove AFK farming and make battles about Isk and winning rather than warpoints and SP. This is probably too big a change alas. Doesn't work in a F2P game, sadly. In fact, I would say that a greedier company than CCP would already have decimated passive SP, but increased the benefit of passive boosters, to ensure that everyone who wants to get ahead "pays a sub". "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 209	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:00:00 - [34] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Garth Mandra wrote: My favourite option which is unlikely to ever happen is to remove active SP entirely. Put all SP accumulation into passive. That'd make a rollover unnecessary, remove AFK farming and make battles about Isk and winning rather than warpoints and SP. This is probably too big a change alas. Doesn't work in a F2P game, sadly. In fact, I would say that a greedier company than CCP would already have decimated passive SP, but increased the benefit of passive boosters, to ensure that everyone who wants to get ahead "pays a sub". Good point. You have the same problem (to a slightly lesser extent) with a full rollover too.
Templar 10 The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 22	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:25:00 - [35] - Quote how ever i would be more inclined to lower the sp cap which would let you hit the cap fast just a lower cap like 100k not 192 or what ever it is
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 7052	Posted - 2013.11.14 02:45:00 - [36] - Quote Solution: give ME the SP without having to play for it. I'm just going to AFK farm anyway and hit the cap, so just give it to me and save me all the trouble. Should only apply to only my characters. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 209	Posted - 2013.11.14 03:31:00 - [37] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Solution: give ME the SP without having to play for it. I'm just going to AFK farm anyway and hit the cap, so just give it to me and save me all the trouble. Should only apply to only my characters. In all seriousness I would pay a subscription for this.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 126	Posted - 2013.11.14 03:43:00 - [38] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Whenever you go to the whiteboard and come back with a complicated scheme from one of the most hated industries in the world, you need to re-think your strategy. The best solution to the SP cap is to remove it entirely. You earn what you earn, and that's it. Simple. As far as a catch-up mechanic... the game already has them built in: Boosters. Give new players 1 month's worth of active and passive boosters. That's enough training to get into a decent ADV suit. It can also lead to increased revenue after they use their last free booster and see the decline in SP gain. This, I like. I'd add in a cap on SP past 5 million though. Otherwise we have the same problem, vets are uncatchable.
Rannici Ancient Exiles. 92	Posted - 2013.11.14 05:14:00 - [39] - Quote no. rollover sp, or nothing at all. honestly. i have capped nearly every week since the game hit open beta. i have no life, and would be one those constant no-life grinder types. .... that is, if i actually liked this game. .... i hate this game. honestly, the fact that CCP is devoting time to talking about this, is part of the problem. keep fixing bugs. work on adding content. don't worry about the SP cap. we've all adjusted to it by now. i had to work for months to level up all of my skills. blueberries should need to exercise that same level of commitment and dedication to their skill planning. no 'accelerated' sp gaining. no 'bank'. just. no. you want to catch up to the vets in terms of total sp? too bad. that's not how eve or dust is designed to work. welcome to new eden.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2417	Posted - 2013.11.14 06:23:00 - [40] - Quote All this talk of detail is bassackwards. Before we design a new system we should first specify what the goals are. We can then determine if any of the goals are incompatable and their relative ranking. Then we can judge the merits of each proposal by how well it accomplishes the goals. Starting with the details obscures several different goals. So what are the goals? Here's my impression: 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream Several of these seem to be incompatable, specifically 2 and 4. If you remove the cap you create the possibility that somone will no-life for however long it takes. So you have to decide which is more important to you. Expiring any of the bonus pool goes against 1. Any expiration means you still have to earn the same average point accrual, it's just that the timeframe is relaxed. 3 could be accomplished by a large base bonus pool. 5 could be accomplished by active boosters multiply a certain amount of bonus SP before running out. Making it SP based rather than time based makes it worth a constant amount and not prone to abuse. If you make the active booster add more the pool it wont' be valuable if someone has a great deal saved up already.

Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 895	Posted - 2013.11.14 06:41:00 - [41] - Quote There is no need for newbies to 'catch up' with vets in SP. Pretty soon they'll be vets and a new set of newbies need to catch up, what then? Do we suddenly give them 100M SP in the first month so they'll not feel bad playing against 200M SP vets? EVE reverted back to 80k starter SP just for this reason.
Cass Caul 282	Posted - 2013.11.14 06:46:00 - [42] - Quote I have capped out every week since the switch to weekly. Hell, I never missed a daily cap either. I usually cap out on Thursday or Friday at the latest. Anyone remember the thread posted on the first Wednesday? Mr Zitro capped out in about 4 hours. Other tankers were very close (Granted, they had Surya and Sagaris tanks on Manus Peak Ambush). I've capped out on a Wednesday more than 5 but less than 10 times. You think it's a grind when SP gains end at 1000? the daily cap had each and every match after the cap give out 50 SP. (though the active cap was 27200 and passive was 28800 per day) I am in full support of a cap. No cap and SP gain of 5/sec + WP? I would honestly have every skill at 5 except those skills that don't give bonuses. I think that new players need an unlimited cap, up to 5 million SP. While increasing this minimum cap by 400,000 per month after it is implemented. I'd really like the rollover system to only last 1 week. 190400 for normal, take a week off and it is 380800, but take two weeks off and it is diminishing returns. A maximum Rollover of 500000 SP +Éß¦ëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
Cosgar ParagonX 7752	Posted - 2013.11.14 06:51:00 - [43] - Quote I'm in favor of rollover SP if we have to have a cap or 100% passive SP if we don't have a cap. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 896	Posted - 2013.11.14 07:18:00 - [44] - Quote How will DUST look like in 10 years?
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 487	Posted - 2013.11.14 09:22:00 - [45] - Quote Full passive SP please. SP grind is not a fun mechanic. Grinding for ISK is what mercs should do. Maybe even incorporate EVEs skill training system? It would make sense. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 843	Posted - 2013.11.14 09:54:00 - [46] - Quote tbh I much rather have the SP like it is in EVE, eg remove the active and put it on passive, and just make it a requirement that you need to log in every week or something for it to keep accumulating. Or just let us train towards skills like eve rather than an sp pool. That would make us need to do active decisions rather than farming sp. The grind for active SP at least for me takes away the fun, I feel I lag behind in terms of SP when I cannot play and I progress slow towards my goals, if I knew that I would get the SP just as fast if I couldn't play for a week or two that would still make me feel happy. Or some other requirement, but I just don't enjoy the grind for SP. /c DUSTBoard - Mercenary sheets DUSTSearch - DUST Forum mirror


CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 150	Posted - 2013.11.14 09:58:00 - [47] - Quote Hey all, As someone in on the meeting with the CPM yesterday I can say that it was pretty great and went well! Having spoken with a bunch of you, the SP Rollover seems to be something that's been thrown around the community quite a while before I joined. It's something we're definitely interested in exploring further and discussing internally, but I'd welcome any thoughts you all have as to what would be the best system to encourage both new and veteran players. The CPM are going to be continually involved in discussions with us about this and would be a great place to start for getting your thoughts and suggestions heard. Cheers :) CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 487	Posted - 2013.11.14 10:06:00 - [48] - Quote ChribbaX wrote: tbh I much rather have the SP like it is in EVE, eg remove the active and put it on passive, and just make it a requirement that you need to log in every week or something for it to keep accumulating. Or just let us train towards skills like eve rather than an sp pool. That would make us need to do active decisions rather than farming sp. The grind for active SP at least for me takes away the fun, I feel I lag behind in terms of SP when I cannot play and I progress slow towards my goals, if I knew that I would get the SP just as fast if I couldn't play for a week or two that would still make me feel happy. Or some other requirement, but I just don't enjoy the grind for SP. /c I couldn-¦t agree with you more, both as a Swede, and as a casual Dust player! Any hardcore player opinions about if there could be any issues by bringing into a "skill training queue" into dust, like in EVE online? +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 488	Posted - 2013.11.14 10:47:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey all, As someone in on the meeting with the CPM yesterday I can say that it was pretty great and went well! Having spoken with a bunch of you, the SP Rollover seems to be something that's been thrown around the community quite a while before I joined. It's something we're definitely interested in exploring further and discussing internally, but I'd welcome any thoughts you all have as to what would be the best system to encourage both new and veteran players. The CPM are going to be continually involved in discussions with us about this and would be a great place to start for getting your thoughts and suggestions heard. Cheers :) Hey Saberwing, Any possibility of CCP having a market survey regarding the SP system again? Maybe now that the game has matured from beta, it could be a good idea. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 3772	Posted - 2013.11.14 11:05:00 - [50] - Quote I'm not bitter or anything But Operation: Retake Dust 514 thread was TOTALLY made before this one xD ANON Diplomat -//- I Support SP Rollover ^_^

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 938	Posted - 2013.11.14 11:09:00 - [51] - Quote I would like to turn all the WP in SP when i reach the cap and not only 1000 SP. I'm not against the current system but if you don't reach the cap one week all the points you haven't earned should be added to the next week cap limit and so on, if rollover means that i'm supporting it. "Just another piece of duct tape" Some love for gunners
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 127	Posted - 2013.11.14 11:20:00 - [52] - Quote 1/3 of sp cap that you haven't reached goes into the roll over pool. then next week if you hit the cap you start using roll over Also maybe stop collecting rollover after a month of no login Christ is lord Sanguine knights , open recruitment, join now. Dust should add open world , kinda like arma!
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 44	Posted - 2013.11.14 11:42:00 - [53] - Quote Skihids wrote: 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream I agree that any serious design discussion needs to begin with requirements. Thank you for bringing this up. If there's anything we've learned from this latest triple SP event, it is that people will grind endlessly and hate themselves for it if they perceive they will gain an advantage from doing so. Removing the pressure to grind SP in the first place strikes me as a top priority for avoiding player burnout. This is where I think Blizzard got a few things right, with their mantra of "gated, not grindy". On the topic of avoiding player burnout, I don't see temporary disincentives as automatically bad for the long-term health of the game. Burned out players stop playing, and having a reason to turn off your PS3 at the end of each night can help avoid that. When those disincentives sometimes discourage you for logging in for 2 or 3 days at a time because you capped out too quickly, then you've got a problem. New player competitiveness is extremely important, but I do not believe accelerated SP gains are the appropriate way to address this issue, especially since that just makes point 4 an even bigger concern. Interstellar Crossroads
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 491	Posted - 2013.11.14 12:02:00 - [54] - Quote I just got this idea: If you have a system like EVE, where you put skills in queue. Would it make sense for you to acquire SP faster if you are actually using that dropsuit or weapon or module in combat? I mean, in real life this would make sense, since most learn quicker from combining theory with practice. Add a booster on top of this to accelerate the learning. Damn we got a fine system ladies and gents. It does not punish you for not playing and it definately does not punish you for playing too much. One problem with such a system would be how to classify that you have been 'training' with said equipment. Can be a complex problem so solve.. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
dustwaffle Xer Cloud Consortium 671	Posted - 2013.11.14 12:14:00 - [55] - Quote The only problem I see with complete removal of active SP, and only leaving passive SP is: In EVE, SP gain is monetized by having to pay a subscription to the game so keep gaining SP over time. In Dust, no subscription is required to play. In this case, this would bring about: 1. Players who think, I can never catch up to the vets in SP, so why bother? This is similar to how a lot of people mistakenly believe this in EVE. However, the difference between both games is that player skill and knowledge does not give you as much of an advantage in a first person shooter. 2. Players just signing up, creating an alt and leaving it to accrue SP over a long period, finally coming back to the game and having the same amounts of SP as someone who started at the same time. As it is, the game already suffers from a low player count, this would, IMO, compound the problem. 3. Players who think there are no rewards for playing apart from ISK gain. See point 2. In any case, this would reduce a revenue stream in the form of active boosters, and we have no way of knowing if passive booster sales would increase, though in all likelihood they probably wouldn't. While some people play for fun (I hardly cap and genuinely enjoy playing Dust), for a lot of gamers today, it's all about the carrot and stick. All passive SP would not be a large enough carrot to entice them to play, as they hold the mentality that they should be rewarded some way or another just for participating. My 0.02 ISK
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 45	Posted - 2013.11.14 12:34:00 - [56] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: 1. Players who think, I can never catch up to the vets in SP, so why bother? This is similar to how a lot of people mistakenly believe this in EVE. However, the difference between both games is that player skill and knowledge does not give you as much of an advantage in a first person shooter. I believe the real difference lies in the rock-paper-scissors nature of EVE. All players start out being able to use rocks. SP eventually unlocks paper, and then finally scissors... Which actually cause rocks to become even more relevant. dustwaffle wrote: 2. Players just signing up, creating an alt and leaving it to accrue SP over a long period, finally coming back to the game and having the same amounts of SP as someone who started at the same time. As it is, the game already suffers from a low player count, this would, IMO, compound the problem. You can still have differing levels of passive SP gain. As an example, just for the sake of conversation: You could cut the current passive SP gain in half, and provide an activity bonus that grants players triple SP for a week if they won 5 or more matches in the previous week. This would stack multiplicatively with the Passive SP booster, so an active boosted player would get 4.5 times the SP that an inactive character would get. Interstellar Crossroads
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz 202	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:31:00 - [57] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Personally, I'm a strong supporter of the rollover system, but if given the choice I would much prefer no cap at all. While this may encourage some heavy farming by some, for the most part we shouldn't need to fear exploiting too much with the new system CCP Greyscale has tossed out that limits WP/time, which was the largest concern with having no cap. I feel that any cap (However large it may be) sends the message "After X point you should stop playing our game and do something else." which I feel is a pretty silly message to send to your loyal customers. As a gamer, I have absolutely hated the "You cannot pass GO until Z timer expires" prevalent in many F2P games. Further, limited progression implies that progression itself is the entire goal of the game (Which until we get some actual content, it kind of is) and I think that is incredibly wrong. SP shouldn't be the primary focus of the game. SP and progression should be something secondary that happens naturally as someone is enjoying the other content, in my opinion. While we enjoy a (sort of) soft cap rather than an abrupt stop to progression, that is almost worse in my opinion. With the soft cap players are still rewarded for grinding, but trying to eke out progression one match at a time can be nothing short of painful after one hits their cap. Even if players do not approve of removing the cap entirely, I think it is very important that however this system is revamped, a day 1 player should be able to catch up to someone who has been playing for months, if that new player wants to grind like a madman while the "vet" is only playing an hour or so a day. Agreed, on weeks I actually hit the cap, I stop. Why play if I can't improve my character anymore. No doubt it was a "grind" to cap in the first place. But why is it a grind? We should enjoy playing, and stop referring to it as grinding. But after doing some of the same things for months now, with hardly a change of pace, it becomes a grind. Going to work every day is a grind, I don't always enjoy it, but I have to do it if I want to get any better. Look, I don't want to come home to do more "work". I want to drink my beer, sit in my chair, and play a fing video game. I want to relax, not stress about remaining competitive, or grinding to become competitive. I want to play a few games, and I want to do decent in them. Interesting enough, I was just thinking about this last night. I have recently started a brand new character. Checked out the tutorial btw (not impressed). Anyways, going into heavy suits with this char, probably a forge gun I think. So I've spent my points split between the skills for the suits and weapon. Need more points so I was like hey, I'll play some matches. Que for ambush, milita suit is setup with a repper for points, and proto stomped. 2nd place on my side in WP, 2000 sp. An hour later, I've accrued 12,000 SP. Every single match was a proto stomp, minus 2 I can think of. I had nightmares about duvolles and exile assault rifles last night. Point is though, this never happens on my main. At this rate, it's going to be a long while until I get my suits, or weapons for that matter. Then I need my armor and shield skills on top of that. I feel bad for newberries, how are they going to accrue those WP needed for that SP. Me, with my experience, was able to rack up a few, half the norm of my main. New guys though, and I know I had some on my team, averaged 50, and lots of 0 or 5. One game I did pretty poorly and got 1500 sp at the end. That number familiar at all?? So for a 18,000 point skill, you would need to play roughly 18 games, 9 if you average 2000. Mind you this is ambush, and games tend to go much faster, that's still a lot of ass whoopins. And I can get stomped only so many times before I bore of playing. The wall between new players and vets, must be destroyed. New players need an edge. - Accelerated training, a MUST. - No cap up to 2.5 or 3mil. Need to look at how much sp it takes to get into an advanced suit with decent skills. Also something that could help the new people -Milita only game mode!! Meta level 0 items only, make milita versions of all weapons!! A mode where nobody has an edge equipment wise. It's all about skill! Ugh, gotta go grind out some work now. Nuff Said
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1221	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:51:00 - [58] - Quote The attraction of a passive sp system is that it removes the OCD-like need to grind, which is an unpleasant game experience for many. Nobody wants this to feel like a second job. On top of that the step up players have to make to accommodate running merc corps in New Eden is already fairly joblike and consuming. The attraction of an active sp system is that it rewards players for personal performance in battle and for contributions to the team and the win. I think we can have both of these sp-accrual methods working together in a much more synergistic fashion. Proposed: Mercs accrue only passive sp, but at a rate modified by performance in-match. So every merc would get sp at a constant trickle, just like we do now. Warpoints would be rewarded in-match just like they are now. At the end of match these warpoints would be converted to a bump up in the rate of passive sp accrual. This bump up would not be permanent, but would last for a day or a week or whatever timeframe seems reasonable. To simplify the accounting on our devs writing the code to keep track of this, it would be nice if today's total warpoint->sp bump up would accumulate throughout a day's playing and get applied to the passive trickle rate the next day. Caps could still apply, active and passive boosters could still work, rollover could still work. My belief is that because the rewards were not an immediate sp-payoff, the pressure to grind would be somewhat ameliorated. That's really the core of my proposal. i think we could still give out lump-sum sp rewards at end of match, but these would be only for team and squad-based performance. - A team bonus for the win. - A squad bonus based on the total extra WP a squad earned from their squad bonus WP only. I support SP rollover.
Noragee Silverfire HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 37	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:53:00 - [59] - Quote New players don't need to catch up, they need something they can do to be effective and feel like they are supporting the Corp. While not an entirely bad thing, currently you only want to field your top 16 people. And having participated in PC it disheartens those that are not part of that group, as they feel like they do not have anyway to support the corp's goals. The following ideas are more to get discussion going, but in short I don't think the problem really lies in SP accrual for new players, the problem is how the can contribute to their corp. To change that requires more changes than just fiddling with SP gain and cap. I much rather see a full passive system with a second system available from WP. Passive SP is the primary way people earn SP and it goes toward a skill you queue up. Double the current rate. You build up WP separately and then can spend it like now to unlock skills, no caps. Cut WP gain in half to compensate increased Passive. Boosters to boost either as they are right now. To make this work, we need a mode where the ISK gain is large, but the WP gain is minimal. PVE for example where every drone kill is only 1-5 WP, but ISK is 5x as much as current payout for a ADV kill. Thus giving a mode focused on generating ISK, and removing the passive income from districts. Eventually the payout shifts to resource generation, that in turn is sold for ISK. Remove ISK gain from PC, cut it drastically in Pub matches against other mercs. New players now become vital to a corp as they can become ISK generators for the Corp to fund the vets in PC, Pub, etc. While those with more SP fight the major corp battles. I would think this would solve the issue of proto stomping as all corps could do it and the new players would have a more meaningful use than just being cannon fodder to the vets like they are now.
David Spd Caldari State 88	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:54:00 - [60] - Quote Can people please stop saying "EVE does this, let's be more like that!" For starters, EVE is pay to own AND pay to play. Dust is neither. Secondly, Dust is a completely different genre where gameplay mechanics are the main focus and appeal. Thirdly same universe doesn't (and shouldn't) mean same exact everything. If you EVE players want to play a game with all the same mechanics and under the hood logic of EVE then....oh.... I don't know... play EVE? We don't need two EVE Online MMOs. One is more than enough. --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake

D34NOS MAZDA WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 209	Posted - 2013.11.14 13:58:00 - [61] - Quote I see two options 1) Remove active SP Fully and only have passive SP. This will mean that veterans will always be x amount ahead of new players but the gap will never decrease or increase. 2) Rollover system based on the birth of your merc. You take every available active SP that the merc could have gained since birth less any active SP that they have earnGÇÖt, this then goes into the rollover pot. Any points that have been gained over and above the weekly caps to date are classed as additional SP that the merc has gained and is excluded from this. New mercs are new so in theory should always be behind but should be given a 5m SP in there rollover pot to start with. No cap would be a stupid idea as would benefit those without a job or a life (sorry to who ever I offend) Option two is my preferred option as would still leave a gap between the old and new players and would reward loyalty with a way for people who couldnGÇÖt cap get the chance to catch up with what they could have got but anyone who has played beyond the cap (1000sp per battle) will still be infront as that SP will never be able to be gained by the other players
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1221	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:05:00 - [62] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: There is no need for newbies to 'catch up' with vets in SP. Pretty soon they'll be vets and a new set of newbies need to catch up, what then? Do we suddenly give them 100M SP in the first month so they'll not feel bad playing against 200M SP vets? EVE reverted back to 80k starter SP just for this reason. This is right on the money. The 'never catch up' argument comes from peeps who don't understand that the sp costs rising with level is the great equalizer that allows noobs to become vets in the same time it take vets to get that last level in their skills. The system is already designed to accommodate the noob vs. vet disparity. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1221	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:21:00 - [63] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: I have capped out every week since the switch to weekly. Hell, I never missed a daily cap either. I usually cap out on Thursday or Friday at the latest. Anyone remember the thread posted on the first Wednesday? Mr Zitro capped out in about 4 hours. Other tankers were very close (Granted, they had Surya and Sagaris tanks on Manus Peak Ambush). I've capped out on a Wednesday more than 5 but less than 10 times. You think it's a grind when SP gains end at 1000? the daily cap had each and every match after the cap give out 50 SP. (though the active cap was 27200 and passive was 28800 per day) I am in full support of a cap. No cap and SP gain of 5/sec + WP? I would honestly have every skill at 5 except those skills that don't give bonuses. I think that new players need an unlimited cap, up to 5 million SP. While increasing this minimum cap by 400,000 per month after it is implemented. I'd really like the rollover system to only last 1 week. 190400 for normal, take a week off and it is 380800, but take two weeks off and it is diminishing returns. A maximum Rollover of 500000 SP Agreed Cass. The rollover sp pool should definitly not last forever. The whole motivation for rollover sp is to accomodate various customers in their various lifestyles, NOT to guarantee every possible sp to every player. My vote would be for a two week rollover period. My proposal is that rollover sp should be radioactive: The rate of decay should be proportional to the number of rollover sp accumulated. We would set the half-life at 14 days/5 halving periods = 2.8 days, so that at 2 weeks rollover sp would have decayed to 1/16 of their starting value. Why exponential decay? Because it's cool, because plausibily potential learning would decay exponentially with time, and because it's an easy mechanic to implement and write cool active infographics for. I support SP rollover.
We are 138 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 429	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:21:00 - [64] - Quote No cap until 10 million sp, 3 times normal cap until 15 million sp. Normal cap following that.
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 384	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:33:00 - [65] - Quote As many have said, boosters are the way for new players to catch up with vet players. I started playing when Uprising hit and have 23.5 mil SP - more than some beta players. At a certain SP level, around 15mil or so, a newer player who specializes can go toe to toe with a beta player who might have 10 mil SP or more over him. The vet will have more options (other weapons, suits, vehicles, whatever) making him more versatile, but there is still a finite amount of SP into skills that can benefit you, limited by what's on the suit you are wearing at the time. For example your 10 mil SP into AV, while impressive, doesn't help you one bit if the other side only has boots on the ground and no vehicles to kill. As to a rollover system, I've capped out every week since I started playing so it would not benefit me, nor would it benefit the newer players who are intent on competing with vets by capping out every week. If active boosters remained the same as they are now, rollover SP might actually encourage more people not to play and accrue SP, enabling them to knock out a few weeks' worth of banked SP using 3-day or 7-day boosters in an extended grind session.
lDocHollidayl Ancient Exiles. 342	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:39:00 - [66] - Quote Anything to help new players. No cap till 5 million sounds reasonable. Full rollover system too. The gap is bad and new players are rare. The fact that player count is so low that vets are always fighting noobs does not help. This needs a fix before any $ is spent on marketing.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1222	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:54:00 - [67] - Quote lDocHollidayl wrote: Anything to help new players. No cap till 5 million sounds reasonable. Full rollover system too. The gap is bad and new players are rare. The fact that player count is so low that vets are always fighting noobs does not help. This needs a fix before any $ is spent on marketing. CCP take heed. This is the voice of non-self-destuctive wisdom. I support SP rollover.
Takron Nistrom Tinfoil Hatz 130	Posted - 2013.11.14 14:55:00 - [68] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: I voted for a rollover system and I regret that decision. What I would like to see however is a Rollover SP or Banked SP system that has a cap on it. I understand not everyone wants to play Dust all the time, people go on vacation, have lives, play other games etc., but I don't see why we should reward players for not playing the game. In eve passive SP is only gained if one is paying their subscription. There is no possible to way for a new player in EVE to go and grind out a 150m+ toon. Why are we trying to make it so in Dust? In EVE there are always bigger fish and I think that's something we've lost sight of in Dust. "Bigger fish" is a misleading term anyways. In regards to "catching up with the pros" I strongly believe this is a myth supported by players who do not want to acknowledge that the reason they get stomped is not because there are people with more SP and better gear but because there are people who are just better than them. I have 30m SP right now. I was as strong as I was ever going to be on my main fit 15m SP ago. The rest is just luxury - new toys and expensive vehicles that don't put me any more ahead of the pack when it comes to 1v1 encounters. When I have 60m SP I won't be any stronger than I am today in my Templar Assault with my Templar ScR. My point is that if you don't play the game, and don't invest the time into it, you shouldn't get the same rewards as the people who do just for showing up once in a while. What I propose is that we limit the amount of SP eligible for the rollover system. This could be somewhere around 1 million SP players could grind out if they quit dust for a couple months, have busy work weeks, go on vacation, etc. It doesn't punish players for taking short breaks from the game but also it doesn't allow players who abandon the game for extended periods of time to come back without consequence. tl;dr 1mil max SP rollover on active SP doesn't punish short breaks and encourages people to actually play I would be in favor of your proposal if I didnt get roflestomped by the poopsockers. If they want to be rewarded and I dont get the same rewards for putting up with their 'no lifeing' then I want it too. New players in eve dont get flung into a nullsec battle first day and people who want to play casual dont get flung outta empire. Fix that and Ill agree with you. GÇ£Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)GÇ¥ GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Haerr Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 97	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:07:00 - [69] - Quote There are a lot of good suggestions and ideas in this thread! I would like to add a few ideas. # "catch up" mechanic(s) First off, I am against the implementation of any "catch up" mechanic. How ever if you insist on implementing one I think it would be a good idea to only make it benefit active players. -¦ players under 5 million SPs gain bonus SP per WP (factor of 3) -¦ players under 10 million SPs gain bonus SP per WP (factor of 2) -¦ players under 15 million SPs gain bonus SP per WP (factor of 1) This will reward active new players with out handing out free SPs to the ever increasing horde of alts and inactives. If this is not enough you could: -¦ players gain a respec after earning their first 15 million SPs It will allow new players to make mistakes and to learn from them with out suffering from them. It will also allow new players to "catch up" by specialising. If you still feel like you aren't giving new players enough of an advantage over the rest of your player base: -¦ make the boosters give 1.75x their value to player that has less than 10 million SPs Can't really find a way to justify this but hey it's an idea and as we all know not all ideas are good. # rollover system -¦ 28k sp is added daily to the cap I would prefer to have the rollover system based of a daily addition to the cap since it would promote an active player base giving them a reason to logon every day (if they chose to do so). And having the rollover system will not punish those who chose to log on less frequently. It might also dissuade the "no reason to log on until wednesday" and the subsequent "protostomp wednesdays". A side effect will be that no one is "rushing a head". (Not sure if that is good or bad.) -¦ cap is limited to 500k Having a such a high cap will allow for longer breaks and/or highs and lows in play time. -¦ cap starts with 500k SPs in it for new players An other way to benefit new players I guess. This system isn't without a potential disadvantage: Players not playing in preparation of "3x SP" events. In order to make the most of "3x SP" events you would have to "save cap" in order to fully take advantage of the events. Possible solution: "3x SP" events would have their bonus applied only to the SP added to the cap that day. Another disadvantage would be an other form of "save and grind" including the use of short boosters to make the most out of said boosters. Bitter, butthurt and trying to HTFU.
George Moros Area 514 162	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:13:00 - [70] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Rasatsu wrote: There is no need for newbies to 'catch up' with vets in SP. Pretty soon they'll be vets and a new set of newbies need to catch up, what then? Do we suddenly give them 100M SP in the first month so they'll not feel bad playing against 200M SP vets? EVE reverted back to 80k starter SP just for this reason. This is right on the money. The 'never catch up' argument comes from peeps who don't understand that the sp costs rising with level is the great equalizer that allows noobs to become vets in the same time it take vets to get that last level in their skills. The system is already designed to accommodate the noob vs. vet disparity. This would be true if DUST was more like EVE with regard to what certain skill levels "unlock" for the player. However, in DUST you have the situation where, in some cases, the only items worth using are of the "complex" type (requiring related skill at 5). I'm talking about shield extenders, damage modifiers and such. The difference in performance across tiers is simply too large to make usage of sub-complex gear viable. This situation strongly favors high SP players, and is very noob-unfriendly.

Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1267	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:13:00 - [71] - Quote Rollover sp cap for everyone + 5 million bonus sp (active sp) banked in for new characters. That 5 mil still has to be earned but gives a chance to new players to be competitive. 5 mil sp is good enough to specialize at least to advanced in one class. "Please don't" GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå I Support SP Rollover, MAKE IT HAPPEN CCP !!!
Keri Starlight 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 2026	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:14:00 - [72] - Quote My vote is to keep the Cap and implement the Rollover system. If you want to remove the SP Cap for new players, that's ok, but please do not remove it entirely. We definitely do not want to punish people for having a work, friends, family or whatever. And we don't want to incentivate playing 24/7. I hope you're going to do the right thing. -1.7 ranges: AR 42m -> 48m, TAR 65m -> 60m -Goodbye my love, Tac AR "I load my gun with love instead of bullets"
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1267	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:15:00 - [73] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. I think everyone can agree on that, +1 "Please don't" GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå I Support SP Rollover, MAKE IT HAPPEN CCP !!!
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1222	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:18:00 - [74] - Quote George Moros wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Rasatsu wrote: There is no need for newbies to 'catch up' with vets in SP. Pretty soon they'll be vets and a new set of newbies need to catch up, what then? Do we suddenly give them 100M SP in the first month so they'll not feel bad playing against 200M SP vets? EVE reverted back to 80k starter SP just for this reason. This is right on the money. The 'never catch up' argument comes from peeps who don't understand that the sp costs rising with level is the great equalizer that allows noobs to become vets in the same time it take vets to get that last level in their skills. The system is already designed to accommodate the noob vs. vet disparity. This would be true if DUST was more like EVE with regard to what certain skill levels "unlock" for the player. However, in DUST you have the situation where, in some cases, the only items worth using are of the "complex" type (requiring related skill at 5). I'm talking about shield extenders, damage modifiers and such. The difference in performance across tiers is simply too large to make usage of sub-complex gear viable. This situation strongly favors high SP players, and is very noob-unfriendly. Absolutely not true and proven by many mercs in many instances. Peeps can & do perform very well in pubs running militia/standard gear. CCP has done a good job in that respect. The primary variables ar player skill and the ability to adapt your playstyle to your tactical environment. I support SP rollover.
Severus Smith Caldari State 421	Posted - 2013.11.14 15:38:00 - [75] - Quote dustwaffle wrote: The only problem I see with complete removal of active SP, and only leaving passive SP is: In EVE, SP gain is monetized by having to pay a subscription to the game so keep gaining SP over time. In Dust, no subscription is required to play. In this case, this would bring about: 1. Players who think, I can never catch up to the vets in SP, so why bother? This is similar to how a lot of people mistakenly believe this in EVE. However, the difference between both games is that player skill and knowledge does not give you as much of an advantage in a first person shooter. 2. Players just signing up, creating an alt and leaving it to accrue SP over a long period, finally coming back to the game and having the same amounts of SP as someone who started at the same time. As it is, the game already suffers from a low player count, this would, IMO, compound the problem. 3. Players who think there are no rewards for playing apart from ISK gain. See point 2. In any case, this would reduce a revenue stream in the form of active boosters, and we have no way of knowing if passive booster sales would increase, though in all likelihood they probably wouldn't. While some people play for fun (I hardly cap and genuinely enjoy playing Dust), for a lot of gamers today, it's all about the carrot and stick. All passive SP would not be a large enough carrot to entice them to play, as they hold the mentality that they should be rewarded some way or another just for participating. My 0.02 ISK Create a Booster that costs the same as a monthly EVE subscription that sets your Active SP accrual to 0% and your passive to 400% (or whatever number that equals you hitting your active cap every day). BAM! No more SP grind. It is now all passive and I don't have to grind every damn day to play this game. All problems solved and CCP gets money.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 492	Posted - 2013.11.14 16:23:00 - [76] - Quote ^ this guy gets it +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
Vespasian Andendare Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 545	Posted - 2013.11.14 16:55:00 - [77] - Quote There needs to be a cap in the system to stop "runaway power" at the top end for players who grind all the time. That sort of idea only would push the divide between new players and vets farther, which is not desirable. But, the cap should be implemented differently depending on a player's SP: For new players--say players under 5 million SP--there should be NO cap. It gives the new player the chance to catch up to a competitive level (from new at 500k SP through 5 mil SP). For players above 5 mil SP, there should be a roll over system implemented so that players don't feel the need to grind out SP weekly. However, if we are talking about changes to the SP system, then there is tremendous room for improvement with the SP system overall. One possibility would be shifting it to a purely passive accrual (yes, like Eve Online), which would take away much of the angst about having to "grind" out skills at all. Another option would perhaps be a system where there is "active" sp accrual for players under 5 mil SP but shifts to passive only post 5 mil. Alternatively, rewards and SP distribution could be looked at overall, based on combat actions-to-WP-gain, etc., so that a better "feeling" is made from SP gained in combat. >> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! <<
Baltazar Pontain Phantom Universe Task Force Die Fremdenlegion 30	Posted - 2013.11.14 17:07:00 - [78] - Quote My idea: Instead of having a pool of potential SP. Change the system complete. You can play the game and accumulate WP. Beside the normal WP list you have, there will be an internal delta list. It holds the WP accumulated in a certain time. Lets say a week. Once a week (or take another period) your accumulated WP are taken and you get SP for it. Afterwards this internal list is zeroed (not your normal WP list!). The active booster like it is now, will be removed. Instead you can buy a booster that accumulate credits for you WP delta list for ya. Benefits: * PPL with less time are not mocked. * PPL with much time can play a lot * CCP can introduce a formula that handles the delta WP like some kind of log(x) function that handles the power gaming (at some point you have to play a lot to get a small benefit) * All players can buy a booster without forced to play NOW. * We are calmer. Playing is not like work anymore * CPP makes more money. => All are happy?
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2112	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:17:00 - [79] - Quote My only problem with "Full passive" as suggested by some, is that yeah... It's kind of an Eve thing. While Eve things aren't always bad, it's one of the only MMO's that doesn't reward you with some manner of progression every time you kill stuff. Like pointed out above by a couple different people : It's a different genre entirely. Killing something and recieving rewards proportional to that kill towards a 'rank up' is a staple in the FPS genre. You simply couldn't take that away from FPS gamers and still have it appeal to a broad audience. I don't mind a 'passive booster' so much as it has been suggested above, where it takes the 'cap pool' and awards it every week or over time. However, forcing this on everyone would be just as bad as giving everyone back the daily cap, IMO. Some people simply -want- to grind. For those that say "no cap would just benefit the no-lifers", you're absolutely right. I used to be a no-lifer before I got a job, and I would've loved the ability to catch up and actually reach the top of the SP pool if I was a new player. I love that sort of challenge, and usually powergame the crap out of any new game I play to reach that' high level' stage. Is this a bad thing? Not in itself. The 'badness' comes from CCP's terrible balancing to date, that makes having more SP such a massive advantage ingame. Simple fact is, no-lifers are 'always' going to have the advantage in pretty much any progression system. The key isn't to limit everyone else, it's to balance your game in such a way that progression isn't everything, and that in allowing newer players (If they're dedicated enough) to reach the same level and stomp some humility into the previous 'vets'. For the people commenting on a rollover decay/expiry : Some of you compare to Eve subs, and referencing no progression for those not playing. Again, this is a different genre, and a different marketing style. In a F2P game, the point is to make it ALWAYS attractive to come back and play it, even if you took a break to play other games for a while. For example, all the people who stopped playing Dust to play GTAV. It's not going to be long before most of them get bored and look for something else to play. If they could come back and powergame through all the SP from these past few weeks, a lot of them probably would. That's where the difference lies, IMO. Saying "We're going to let you catch up what you missed... (but only a bit of it/only for a little while) is kind of a slap in the face, and pretty much does exactly what people complain about with the weekly cap (Forces a segregation between those who have time to play and those who do not) just in a slightly more gentle way. But consider this : If a dude who is working and can only play 1h/day and can't cap anyways, how is this delayed/limited rollover going to help him, if he doesn't have time off very often? The system introduces yet more grind for him to go through to use up all that limited pool before it expires, doing exactly what this latest 3x SP event did. (Force a painful grind that people will do even if they hate it, and hate themselves afterwards for doing it) This is kind of rambly, but I just woke up and about to head to work. Will reply more coherently later.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 899	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:22:00 - [80] - Quote DUST is still going to be here in 10 years, so EVE as the only game that has done skill progression right for such a timeframe _IS_ relevant.

George Moros Area 514 164	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:30:00 - [81] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Absolutely not true and proven by many mercs in many instances. Peeps can & do perform very well in pubs running militia/standard gear. CCP has done a good job in that respect. The primary variables are player skill and the ability to adapt your playstyle to your tactical environment. You're talking about an completely unrelated thing here. A player like 13ear will probably perform excellently even with a 1M SP character and running militia/standard gear. However, this is due to the fact that he is an extremely skilled player and has absolutely nothing to do with amount of SP and gear he's running. In a similar fashion, if you took a complete noob to DUST (or FPS games in general), gave him a 30M SP character and a billion ISK, he would probably still suck at DUST. All of this, however, doesn't change the fact that CCP has done a lousy job (at least, a good portion of it) in balancing gear across tiers. I thought the topic here was helping new players close the SP gap towards vets. Not that vets perform well running cheap fits.
CHIPMINT BUTTERCUP 145	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:33:00 - [82] - Quote Remove active SP's all together and just have passive SP's. Move to the Loyalty points system across all game modes. Make loyalty points and ISK more important than SP's because right now SP's are the most valuable thing in this game. Have a rollover loyalty points system instead of a rollover SP's system. With the rollover loyalty points system there is no worry of vet / new player sp gap and at the same time it gives a reason to grind but does not make people feel like they need to grind. If you grind you get to spend more in the loyalty store. Endless amount of present and future content can be added to this store. Sell passive SP boosters. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1404978#post1404978 DUST514 I love the dream but not the current product. Dusters - WhenGäó CCP - SoonGäó
Flint Beastgood III GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 333	Posted - 2013.11.14 18:51:00 - [83] - Quote SP rollover for all. No cap for new players until 5 million SP, possibly 2x SP earnings for them also. Gÿó +¦ +¦ Gÿó Meta Gaming V > Proficiency I
xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 101	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:21:00 - [84] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: In a F2P game, the point is to make it ALWAYS attractive to come back and play it, even if you took a break to play other games for a while. . This is why I am opposed to a complete removal of the SP cap. At the moment, Dust can get a little stale with the limited game modes, etc. And I don't log on as much as I could. HOWEVER what does get me to log in multiple times during the week the mini goal of trying to get close to the SP cap of that week. With the time constraints that I have, having that small achieveable goal encourages me to log on. Having a SP cap roll over would encourage me to try just that little bit harder if I took a week or two off due to a holday. If I didn't have the small goal of trying to get close to the SP cap then I honestly wouldn't bother to log on. I'd know that there would always be an unlimited uncapped grind and I wouldn't be bothered trying to keep up with the top players as I know it would be a pointless exercise.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Public Disorder. 540	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:24:00 - [85] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey all, As someone in on the meeting with the CPM yesterday I can say that it was pretty great and went well! Having spoken with a bunch of you, the SP Rollover seems to be something that's been thrown around the community quite a while before I joined. It's something we're definitely interested in exploring further and discussing internally, but I'd welcome any thoughts you all have as to what would be the best system to encourage both new and veteran players. The CPM are going to be continually involved in discussions with us about this and would be a great place to start for getting your thoughts and suggestions heard. Cheers :) This reminds me a lot of January. Time warps are never fun unless you plan them bro. Mr. Hybrid Vayu
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 257	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:46:00 - [86] - Quote Your ideas are all painfully complicated and serve no purpose other than to punish those who want to excel at the game. Remove the SP cap. Anything else is wasting time and developer resources just to pacify entitled whiners who don't want people who work hard to have any advantage over people who do.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1224	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:52:00 - [87] - Quote George Moros wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Absolutely not true and proven by many mercs in many instances. Peeps can & do perform very well in pubs running militia/standard gear. CCP has done a good job in that respect. The primary variables are player skill and the ability to adapt your playstyle to your tactical environment. You're talking about an completely unrelated thing here. A player like 13ear will probably perform excellently even with a 1M SP character and running militia/standard gear. However, this is due to the fact that he is an extremely skilled player and has absolutely nothing to do with amount of SP and gear he's running. In a similar fashion, if you took a complete noob to DUST (or FPS games in general), gave him a 30M SP character and a billion ISK, he would probably still suck at DUST. All of this, however, doesn't change the fact that CCP has done a lousy job (at least, a good portion of it) in balancing gear across tiers. I thought the topic here was helping new players close the SP gap towards vets. Not that vets perform well running cheap fits. You made the claim that non-proto gear was not viable and used that as a springboard for revisions to the sp system. I refuted it with what is a familiar experience for vets(not just the elite player you mention): that many players on this forum can get reasonable results with lesser gear, primarily by playing more carefully and choosing their engagements. The implication is that new players are disadvantaged primarily by their lack of knowledge, not by their sp or gear. I believe the answer to that is education, namely the NPE CCP provides for recent immigrants to New Eden. There may well be issues with gear balance, but that should not motivate revisions to the sp system. There may well be issues with matchmaking, but that should not motivate revisions to the sp system. I thought the topic here was discussion of a potential sp rollover system. I support SP rollover.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 498	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:52:00 - [88] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Your ideas are all painfully complicated and serve no purpose other than to punish those who want to excel at the game. Remove the SP cap. Anything else is wasting time and developer resources just to pacify entitled whiners who don't want people who work hard to have any advantage over people who do. No, EVE training queue. This game should take time to reach proto everything. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 291	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:53:00 - [89] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: The attraction of a passive sp system is that it removes the OCD-like need to grind, which is an unpleasant game experience for many. Nobody wants this to feel like a second job. On top of that the step up players have to make to accommodate running merc corps in New Eden is already fairly joblike and consuming. The attraction of an active sp system is that it rewards players for personal performance in battle and for contributions to the team and the win. I think we can have both of these sp-accrual methods working together in a much more synergistic fashion. Proposed: Mercs accrue only passive sp, but at a rate modified by performance in-match. So every merc would get sp at a constant trickle, just like we do now. Warpoints would be rewarded in-match just like they are now. At the end of match these warpoints would be converted to a bump up in the rate of passive sp accrual. This bump up would not be permanent, but would last for a day or a week or whatever timeframe seems reasonable. To simplify the accounting on our devs writing the code to keep track of this, it would be nice if today's total warpoint->sp bump up would accumulate throughout a day's playing and get applied to the passive trickle rate the next day. Caps could still apply, active and passive boosters could still work, rollover could still work. My belief is that because the rewards are not an immediate sp-payoff, the pressure to grind would be somewhat ameliorated. That's really the core of my proposal. i think we could still give out lump-sum sp rewards at end of match, but these would be only for team and squad-based performance. - A team bonus for the win. - A squad bonus based on the total extra WP a squad earned from their squad bonus WP only. Great idea, +1. I do like the idea of EVE style passive accrual against selected skills. I also like the idea that you should have a Skyrim like function that gives a small bonus to accural against "active" skills such as vehicles, weapons, equipment, ect that you earn WPs from. To me the ideal pieces is putting skills in a cue for accelerated gain and occaisionally getting the "You are now level 4 in SCR Rifles" notification from consistent use over time. On top of this...I'm all for monetizing this in the form of boosters and augmentations you purchase with AUR.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 498	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:55:00 - [90] - Quote Nova Knife: Monetizing on people using boosters for their skill queues seems like a good idea also. Skill queues 'force' you to log in, but not to grind. You can enjoy the game while your skills are training up instead of 'enjoying' the grind. +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. I Support SP Rollover. "Core Locus 514. AR 514. Bricktank 514. COD 514."

ZDub 303 TeamPlayers 2190	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:58:00 - [91] - Quote It might have been said already but just in case... CCP needs only to listen to themselves. CCP Nothin wrote: We acknowledge that the current implementation of the skill cap still isn't quite there yet. It doesn't quite allow people to choose when to play as freely as we would like, and it also adds some unnecessary complexity when it comes to using active boosters. This is why we are working our way towards a rollover SP system: instead having your pool of bonus SP being reset according to a fixed weekly cycle, you will steadily accumulate bonus SP to a pool over time that you can then empty through fighting in battles. As a result, everyone should be able to better choose when to come in and claim the available SP. Moving to such a system would have the added benefit of allowing us to make active boosters to give out a constant value over time by having them influence the rate at which SP accumulates into the pool instead of just multiplying SP received at the end of each battle.
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 863	Posted - 2013.11.14 20:30:00 - [92] - Quote I'd like to link to my suggestion for a large, constantly regenerating pool of SP: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=462915#post462915 Quote: The Alternative It's simple really. 1) Have an active SP reward pool which is the size of a 4x week's of SP, which with the current limits would be 761,600 SP. 2) Active SP rewards deplete this pool, as they do now. 3) Each tick of 30 minutes 566 SP are added back into the SP reward pool. 4) The pool never goes above the maximum size of 761,600 SP 5) Once empty, no rewards (or a nominal reward) is given). The Benefits You get to combine the pros of the weekly AND the daily cap! Pros: A) Whether you play weekly or daily, you have the opportunity to achieve the same number of active SP rewards from your plays. -- You can spread your 10 hours per week over the entire week, playing each day. Or you can have a marathon weekend and do it all in one go! B) No matter how much you have played, you will always have some more SP that you can earn the next day. A full day's worth of SP in fact. -- Even if you've earned an entire week's worth of active SP reward in the previous 2 days, you don't have to wait for a weekly reset day before it is worth playing some more C) No waiting for a reset at down time, just wait 30 minutes! D) It doesn't matter what the SP pool size is, the SP pool recovery rate is what sets how fast the maximum speed of SP accrual is. The SP pool could be set to a month's worth; the only affect would be how far in front players could be when comparing a full pool to an empty pool. Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
Taurion Bruni D3M3NT3D M1NDZ The Umbra Combine 193	Posted - 2013.11.14 20:40:00 - [93] - Quote what if we went back to the daily cap, giving them enough a day to encourage play throughout the week. but to balance the weekday players and the weekend warriors, we have a rollover system that keeps hold of up to a month, but this hold of sp will not be affected by any boosters, to keep players from stacking boosters. Pilot // Logistics // I Support SP Rollover
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 687	Posted - 2013.11.14 20:43:00 - [94] - Quote My thought is forget roll over SP, forget cap system, forget everything we currently have. Institute a new system that will help/encourage new players and satisfy old vets. My thoughts on how to do this is below. Step One Determine when a merc achieves "useful" stages as a player. For simplicity, I will use: < 10,000,000 SP \| 10,000,000 SP to 20,000,000 SP \| >20,000,000 Step Two Define how SP in accrued in each stage < 10,000,000 SP Passive SP: 1SP per Second = 86,400 SP per day. (This is achieved continually regardless of how much a player logs on until they reach 10m SP) Active SP: 6SP per War Point + 6SP per second = ~ 11,400 SP per match. (using 1,000 WP and 900 sec in match with no boosters) 10,000,000 SP to 20,000,000 SP Passive SP: 1SP per every 2 seconds = 43,200 SP per day. Active SP: 4SP per War Point + 4SP per second = ~7,600 SP per match. (using 1,000 WP and 900 sec in match with no boosters) >20,000,000 Passive SP: 1SP per every 2 seconds = 43,200 SP per day. Active SP: 2SP per War Point + 2SP per second = ~3,800 SP per match (using 1,000 WP and 900 sec in match with no boosters) I feel this system will allow new players to get to a stable base quickly while also allowing those vets to hold a small advantage and also allow the grinders to feel like they are getting something out of their grind yet it is not too unfair. My thought is that once a player hits these different milestones, they are not making their "fits" or drop suites that much better, just allowing them to have more variety. *Faction Channels for FW Staging* PIE Ground Control \| Caldari Hierarchy \| Turalyon \| Chosen Matari
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz 203	Posted - 2013.11.14 20:48:00 - [95] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: For the people commenting on a rollover decay/expiry : Some of you compare to Eve subs, and referencing no progression for those not playing. Again, this is a different genre, and a different marketing style. In a F2P game, the point is to make it ALWAYS attractive to come back and play it, even if you took a break to play other games for a while. For example, all the people who stopped playing Dust to play GTAV. It's not going to be long before most of them get bored and look for something else to play. If they could come back and powergame through all the SP from these past few weeks, a lot of them probably would. That's where the difference lies, IMO. Saying "We're going to let you catch up what you missed... (but only a bit of it/only for a little while) is kind of a slap in the face, and pretty much does exactly what people complain about with the weekly cap (Forces a segregation between those who have time to play and those who do not) just in a slightly more gentle way. But consider this : If a dude who is working and can only play 1h/day and can't cap anyways, how is this delayed/limited rollover going to help him, if he doesn't have time off very often? The system introduces yet more grind for him to go through to use up all that limited pool before it expires, doing exactly what this latest 3x SP event did. (Force a painful grind that people will do even if they hate it, and hate themselves afterwards for doing it) This is kind of rambly, but I just woke up and about to head to work. Will reply more coherently later. Was reading through the various posts here, and noticed a few mention the SP rollover, with the time limit. I was sorta pissed, because it IS just that, a grind. It's the same as our current system. So the SP rolls over to next week that you didn't use. Which means you didn't hit your cap. Take me for example, it rolls over to next week, but at the end of the week all this SP is gone. I still didn't reach my cap on the second week. I'm a casual gamer. Dust though is pretty much my only game. 2 hours a night, maybe. And when I run solo, always take a break between each game. So 2 hours and maybe 4 or 5 games. Nearly always hit above 1000 WP, so each match gives me a good chunk of SP. Been playing since Uprising, just recently reached 10 mil SP. Noticed someone else said the same but were at 23 mil. I'm WAY behind. So a roll over with no limit would certainly do me a lot of good for times when I DO actually have time to play. I can see it now though, the people that use multiple accounts, gathering passive SP, and gathering active SP.... SO there does need to be a limit on this kind of system, though not through Decay/Expiry. A cap, on the pool itself would be needed. Addressing the divide between new players and vets: I remember being a new player. I started a char in beta but never played him. I had 4.5 million sp when uprising came out. I knew a little about this game and knew that I had to choose carefully. But I'm a working man, and had little time to study up on all the various aspects. And besides, I wanted to PLAY. I wanted to shoot something. Like any new player. First match though, had me thinkin. I did so incredibly poorly, Spending that sp might be a good idea. So I get an advanced assault suit, advanced weapon. I put points into turrets thinking that would make me better in another tanks turrets, or the grounds turrets. I didn't like the suit, or the gun. My aim was terrible anyways. So I went into another suit, and more weapons, some shield skills and armor skills. Before I knew it, I had a lot of stuff, but I was still doing terrible. A month later I realize I could have had a proto weapon and suit even by then. This game has a huge learning curve. So much I didn't know. It took me 3 months to really say hey, I got all this figured out. I didn't look a whole lot up, I simply learned through experience. I did know something about the EvE universe, and how your choices matter. So I knew to take some reserve in spending. But lets take someone totally new to EvE and Dust 514. They know nothing. I can be hard to imagine it from a newberries perspective. Us more veteran players know the ins and outs. It all just comes naturally at this point. But a noob is in the dark and all alone. They don't know anything about corporations, or why they should be in one. It took me a month or more to even consider joining one when I started. I really did not see a point, I just wanted to shoot things. They don't know about SP, or why they need to spend it. Or how to spend it wisely. They just want to play a game. And shoot things. And they are going to make plenty of mistakes along the way. There is a huge divide between new players and vets, and that problem isn't just about SP but knowledge. But in my opinion, the single best way to learn, is to play. No extended tutorials, just get out there and figure it out. But to maintain retention you need to give them a cookie. Bonus SP on matches played for noobs A higher SP cap And they definitely need a lot more information, suggestions for suit combinations, difference between shield armor. Little things. Nuff Said
George Moros Area 514 164	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:08:00 - [96] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: You made the claim that non-proto gear was not viable and used that as a springboard for revisions to the sp system. I refuted it with what is a familiar experience for vets(not just the elite player you mention): that many players on this forum can get reasonable results with lesser gear, primarily by playing more carefully and choosing their engagements. The implication is that new players are disadvantaged primarily by their lack of knowledge, not by their sp or gear. I believe the answer to that is education, namely the NPE CCP provides for recent immigrants to New Eden. There may well be issues with gear balance, but that should not motivate revisions to the sp system. There may well be issues with matchmaking, but that should not motivate revisions to the sp system. I thought the topic here was discussion of a potential sp rollover system. I said non-complex gear was not viable when compared to complex gear of the same type, not that you couldn't do well in pub matches without complex gear. And I didn't use my claim as a "springboard for revisions to the sp system". I simply stated that current gear (im)balance only further aggravates the segregation between new and old players, which is BTW the point behind proposed rollover system. Read the OP.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 257	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:28:00 - [97] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: KA24DERT wrote: Your ideas are all painfully complicated and serve no purpose other than to punish those who want to excel at the game. Remove the SP cap. Anything else is wasting time and developer resources just to pacify entitled whiners who don't want people who work hard to have any advantage over people who do. No, EVE training queue. This game should take time to reach proto everything. Yep, it should take the amount of time someone is willing to put in. Eve's system works well because of the open-endedness of it. There is a huge diversity of play styles in Eve, but very little of it comes in the plastic-wrapped chunks that the Dust experience comes packaged in. Most of the EVE experience is up to the player, there is no real sense of progression and the rewards players seek are the experiences that the sandbox can provide. Dust's dynamic of short bursts of structured activity lends itself to, and in away requires, a progression reward of some sort per unit of interaction. Consuming these units day-in and day-out without that reward will make a player question why they are even participating in the game.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz 203	Posted - 2013.11.14 21:59:00 - [98] - Quote Haerr wrote: There are a lot of good suggestions and ideas in this thread! I would like to add a few ideas. # "catch up" mechanic(s) First off, I am against the implementation of any "catch up" mechanic. How ever if you insist on implementing one I think it would be a good idea to only make it benefit active players. -¦ players under 5 million SPs gain bonus SP per WP (factor of 3) -¦ players under 10 million SPs gain bonus SP per WP (factor of 2) -¦ players under 15 million SPs gain bonus SP per WP (factor of 1) This will reward active new players with out handing out free SPs to the ever increasing horde of alts and inactives. If this is not enough you could: -¦ players gain a respec after earning their first 15 million SPs It will allow new players to make mistakes and to learn from them with out suffering from them. It will also allow new players to "catch up" by specialising. If you still feel like you aren't giving new players enough of an advantage over the rest of your player base: -¦ make the boosters give 1.75x their value to player that has less than 10 million SPs Can't really find a way to justify this but hey it's an idea and as we all know not all ideas are good. # rollover system -¦ 28k sp is added daily to the cap I would prefer to have the rollover system based of a daily addition to the cap since it would promote an active player base giving them a reason to logon every day (if they chose to do so). And having the rollover system will not punish those who chose to log on less frequently. It might also dissuade the "no reason to log on until wednesday" and the subsequent "protostomp wednesdays". A side effect will be that no one is "rushing a head". (Not sure if that is good or bad.) -¦ cap is limited to 500k Having a such a high cap will allow for longer breaks and/or highs and lows in play time. -¦ cap starts with 500k SPs in it for new players An other way to benefit new players I guess. This system isn't without a potential disadvantage: Players not playing in preparation of "3x SP" events. In order to make the most of "3x SP" events you would have to "save cap" in order to fully take advantage of the events. Possible solution: "3x SP" events would have their bonus applied only to the SP added to the cap that day. Another disadvantage would be an other form of "save and grind" including the use of short boosters to make the most out of said boosters. -More SP from WP, based on how many total SP you have. Love this idea -Respecs, are a good idea for newberries. Give them an option at 5 mil SP to respec, or less. Give them a chance, after they have learned a thing or two, to fix those mistakes and get on the trek to likin the game. -A DAILY CAP, would be awesome. But considering it resets at downtime as is, that may not be a possibility in your setup there for your servers. Overall, I like SP rollover, but with a cap on the total amount possible. What would also be a nice change is if we got more SP out of our WP then currently. It is a slow slow grind even with a booster! Nuff Said
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 45	Posted - 2013.11.14 22:34:00 - [99] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: My only problem with "Full passive" as suggested by some, is that yeah... It's kind of an Eve thing. While Eve things aren't always bad, it's one of the only MMO's that doesn't reward you with some manner of progression every time you kill stuff. It was a staple of the MMORPG genre too, until EVE came along. I believe this quirk is a huge part of why EVE doesn't tend to burn its players as quickly as more conventional MMOs do. CCP tell us that Dust is here for the long-haul. If that is the case, then our progress needs to reflect this long-term vision. Interstellar Crossroads
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 347	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:04:00 - [100] - Quote Make the SP total of Dust's highest SP player the soft cap. Allow everyone under that total to grind until their heart is content. For the top SP player, increase his or her SP soft cap every week by the same amount as the current weekly cap. Do this and there's no need for a rollover. If the top person grinds through their soft cap and creates more distance between them and the rest of the field, they've actually done us all a favor by increasing the new soft cap that we can all grind to. The rookies are happy because they'll be able to become competitive quickly and the vets are happy because they can develop their characters horizontally. Remember, you hit a point of diminishing returns once you're around 15 mil SP. We need to focus on getting players to that point quickly while also letting vets enjoy further character development opportunities that don't really give them a significant edge over those under them.

echo47 Minmatar Republic 98	Posted - 2013.11.15 03:54:00 - [101] - Quote No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 219	Posted - 2013.11.15 04:16:00 - [102] - Quote echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week The thought behind the cap is that once players get every skill they're interested in to 5 interest in the game will wane and they'll stop playing. Something like that anyway.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2422	Posted - 2013.11.15 06:09:00 - [103] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week The thought behind the cap is that once players get every skill they're interested in to 5 interest in the game will wane and they'll stop playing. Something like that anyway. How many players are realistically in danger of doing this?
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 45	Posted - 2013.11.15 07:19:00 - [104] - Quote echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week A cap protects players from themselves. This triple SP weekend just proved to us all that we'll sit here and grind endlessly if CCP lets us. Players burning out and quitting within months is a far bigger problem than not attracting new players in the first place: This game will go nowhere if we develop a high turn over rate and can't retain players. Interstellar Crossroads
DJINN Marauder Ancient Exiles. 2956	Posted - 2013.11.15 07:52:00 - [105] - Quote Sp rollover system I hoped for was: Anything you don't earn that week gets added on to the next weeks cap. Pretty simple. As for new players, I believe they should have no cap until x amount of sp. I think 5 mill is a good number. Allows for adv suit with lv3 core skills and maybe a proto weapon. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 2
Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 187	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:08:00 - [106] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: I'd like to link to my suggestion for a large, constantly regenerating pool of SP: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=462915#post462915 Quote: The Alternative It's simple really. 1) Have an active SP reward pool which is the size of a 4x week's of SP, which with the current limits would be 761,600 SP. 2) Active SP rewards deplete this pool, as they do now. 3) Each tick of 30 minutes 566 SP are added back into the SP reward pool. 4) The pool never goes above the maximum size of 761,600 SP 5) Once empty, no rewards (or a nominal reward) is given). The Benefits You get to combine the pros of the weekly AND the daily cap! Pros: A) Whether you play weekly or daily, you have the opportunity to achieve the same number of active SP rewards from your plays. -- You can spread your 10 hours per week over the entire week, playing each day. Or you can have a marathon weekend and do it all in one go! B) No matter how much you have played, you will always have some more SP that you can earn the next day. A full day's worth of SP in fact. -- Even if you've earned an entire week's worth of active SP reward in the previous 2 days, you don't have to wait for a weekly reset day before it is worth playing some more C) No waiting for a reset at down time, just wait 30 minutes! D) It doesn't matter what the SP pool size is, the SP pool recovery rate is what sets how fast the maximum speed of SP accrual is. The SP pool could be set to a month's worth; the only affect would be how far in front players could be when comparing a full pool to an empty pool. Active boosters simply increase the rate at which the pool refills (and increases the max pool size). I endorse this post.
NoxMort3m D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 97	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:47:00 - [107] - Quote No cap. Reward those who play the most by removing the cap.having a cap has created a scheduled peak and lapse in activity every week. Activity overall would increase if the cap was removed. To help new players catch up to old players , have some sort of multiplier to active sp earned for new players ie. <1 mil sp get like X 1.5 active sp earned untill they reach 3 mil and from then until they reach 5 mil get X 1.2 active . Or something similar .doing so would probably end up making more people buy bossters wanted to get that multiplier back
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 505	Posted - 2013.11.15 10:20:00 - [108] - Quote NoxMort3m wrote: No cap. Reward those who play the most by removing the cap.having a cap has created a scheduled peak and lapse in activity every week. Activity overall would increase if the cap was removed. To help new players catch up to old players , have some sort of multiplier to active sp earned for new players ie. <1 mil sp get like X 1.5 active sp earned untill they reach 3 mil and from then until they reach 5 mil get X 1.2 active . Or something similar .doing so would probably end up making more people buy bossters wanting to get that multiplier back Or just give new players free boosters, like they do in EVE. This could "draw" them into buying more boosters eventually. KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
X7 lion Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 46	Posted - 2013.11.15 10:54:00 - [109] - Quote role over sp + a sp earning bonus for players who are away for more then a few days at a time to make it easier to keep up.
Sum1ne Else WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 747	Posted - 2013.11.15 11:06:00 - [110] - Quote There should be a cap- Keep the cap, Hey, I spent my time playing and getting online to get the cap so are they going to give me back my time- no. Also, if there were no cap people that have the time to play a huge number of hours will get everything real quick and probably quit after a while because they will feel a sense that they have completed the game. Its like any game if you start late you aren't going to get the max amount of SP in a few weeks. I like the idea of no cap up until x SP..like a few said 5m/10m is a good number. Lastly, There should not be a rollover system. Public Relations WJR Its a leopleuradon Charlie a magical leoplueradon, its gunna guide our way to candy mountain!

Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2132	Posted - 2013.11.15 13:52:00 - [111] - Quote Even though i'm a bit late to the party, here's my view on the matter. First, we have to consider the different "requirements" we should expect for a new SP earning system : Avoid the "Those SP are lost forever" feeling Allow new players to catch up with vets if they decide to put in the effort Avoid catering either to hardcore or casual players (too much grind freedom for hardcores vs too limited time investment\ SP reward ratio) Maintaining boosters value In my opinion, playing with the passive SPs earned in battle would be a good way to achieve that. (everytime i'll mention passive SPs, it will be about those earned in battle, not the really passive SPs stream you get even when offline) So first, let's talk about that passive sp system. As a reminder, everyone gets 5 SP for every second spent in battle. Now let's see what % those passive SP represent on a weekly cap for different types of player with the following data: Weekly cap : 190,400 1 WP = 1 SP 1 second in battle = 5 SP. 15 minutes average fight = 4500 SP per fight passively Player who earns an average 800 WP per battle => 4500 + 800 = 5300 => On a weekly cap, passive SP will represent roughly 85% of the SP income for such player. Player who earns an average 1200 WP per battle => 4500 + 1500 = 6000 => On a weekly cap, passive SP will represent roughly 75% of the SP income for such player. Player who earns an average 2000 WP per battle => 4500 + 2000 = 7000 => On a weekly cap, passive SP will represent roughly 65% of the SP income for such player. You see the pattern. Even a solid player gets way more than half of its SP due to the passive gain of SP in battles. For the average player in Dust, the cap is reached at 80% due to those passive SP. But what does it do in the end ? - First it allows to limit the gap between hardcore and casual players on how fast they tend to reach the gap as active SPs play a rather minor role in capping. - Second, it allows to make the different roles and types of player more even in overall SP gain in a battle. it's similar to the previous point but there's a slight but important difference. - Sadly it's also the main SP source for grinding methods (AFKing) or the biggest risk with a no cap situation. Yet, it still has potential. Now, let's talk about the current weekly cap. There's already been many things said about the cap since dust got one. Let's make it short then : - It avoids a huge gap to appear between dedicated players and the more casual part of the player base - It punishes dedicated players by only allowing them a very small amount of SP once they capped. - It stops newer players from catching up with their elders which combined to pubstomps drives them away - It gives a very unpleasant feeling of "you HAVE TO play or you'll lose those SP forever" A solution ? The passive SP rollover cap So what is it about ? Let's break it down before going into details : No more cap at all for active WPs Rollover affects the passive SP (still in battle) rate As we saw, depending on whether or not you're a good player, passive sp play a more or less important roles on how fast you reach the current cap. With this solution, the cap would only be about passive SPs. As we saw, the average Dust player gets around 80% of its cap through passive SPs. So the new weekly passive cap would be : => 0.8 190,400 = roughly 150K SP. => Which in game time gives us : 8.3 hours of passive SP per week. Rougly 30 games of 15 minutes. Once you would reach that cap. Your passive SP rate would be lowered to 1 SP per second. Let's take again our 3 players examples from before once cap is reached. 1 WP = 1 SP 1 second in battle = 1 SP. 15 minutes average fight = 900 SP per fight passively Player who earns an average 800 WP per battle => 900 + 800 = 1700 Player who earns an average 1200 WP per battle => 900 + 1200 = 2100 Player who earns an average 2000 WP per battle => 900 + 2000 = 2900 In this scenario, playing after "capping" would be a lot more appealing than getting only 1000 SP no matter how good you perform. One could argue you could just take out the passive sp completely after capping. But passive SP still serve as a good way to lower the gap between different roles that dont earn as much WP as others (pilots, heavies for example) One could also say that you could affect the passive SP rate but keep the current cap as is and not make it a passive sp cap. But as we saw before, better players benefit less from passive SPs. With a passive SP cap, you'll get as much benefit no matter what your average WP per game is as active SP arent taken into account at any point. So everyone will cap its "passive sp cap" in the same amount of time. Avoid catering either to hardcore or casual players (too much grind freedom for hardcores vs too limited time investment\ SP reward ratio) What about the rollover part. Well it speaks for itself. You cant play for a whole week ? Well your passive SP potential is stored. So you'll start the next week with 16 hours (60 fights of 15m) of 5SP/sec passive SP available. Pretty simple. Avoid the "Those SP are lost forever" feeling And for new players, a bank would be created that stores the potential for all the passive SP earned since the game was released. So say a new player starts today, rougly 7 month after the release. Well, he'd get a 5 SP/s passive rate for 224h of fighting just like everybody has so far. (yeah that's a lot !). But he'll still have to play a lot and he may as he wont get capped. Also, a bank of passive SP is way simpler to deal with as passive SP in battles aren't affected by events when active WP\SP can be. Allow new players to catch up with vets if they decide to put in the effort This Char i only use on the forum.* To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2132	Posted - 2013.11.15 13:53:00 - [112] - Quote saved This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1232	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:04:00 - [113] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week The thought behind the cap is that once players get every skill they're interested in to 5 interest in the game will wane and they'll stop playing. Something like that anyway. If this is what motivates players the game has failed. I'm not saying the MMO grind/progression cycle is a bad thing, but that the game has to be entertaining and engaging enough that the primary motivation is playing, not grinding. I support SP rollover.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 684	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:10:00 - [114] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: -Snip- I like this. There should probably still be some SP from WP cap just to account for any WP farming issues that may crop up. Just make it something that most people won't be likely to reach. !
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 514	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:13:00 - [115] - Quote This SP system need to be revamped to all passive training queues like in EVE Laurent. The current system is not good enough for a game in 2013. It feels like a RPG skill system from the 90s. Streamline, streamline and streamline... Like we say in Sweden: "You cannot add makeup to an old ugly Volvo car to make it look good" (Very rough translation of the saying). KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2134	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:16:00 - [116] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: -Snip- I like this. There should probably still be some SP from WP cap just to account for any WP farming issues that may crop up. Just make it something that most people won't be likely to reach. Or just block potential farms. The WP bucket system that is in place now should do the trick. Though, friendly planetary conquest game made to farm WP should be looked into in a no cap situation. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 516	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:19:00 - [117] - Quote A full passive system would also prohibit WP farming to gain insane amount of SP. It is the only way dust could ever be balanced SP wise between HC grind players and people with a life outside of new eden. KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2134	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:21:00 - [118] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: This SP system need to be revamped to all passive training queues like in EVE Laurent. The current system is not good enough for a game in 2013. It feels like a RPG skill system from the 90s. Streamline, streamline and streamline... Like we say in Sweden: "You cannot add makeup to an old ugly Volvo car to make it look good" (Very rough translation of the saying). I'm a first hand support of the fully passive SP system. If dust was made the way i alone would want it to be, it would be fully passive. But many discussions have happend during beta and after. And Dust would be dead by now if it didnt had any active SP system. Also, we're talking about an FPS, not a game like EVE in which time perception and gameplay momentum are very different. The need for immediate rewarding, and the possibility to accelerate your training through playing seems to be mandatory. To be honest, i'm not even discussing fully passive anymore as i dont see it happened ever. One of the main reason being that the F2P model makes active SP a way too big source of income. Quote: A full passive system would also prohibit WP farming to gain insane amount of SP. It is the only way dust could ever be balanced SP wise between HC grind players and people with a life outside of new eden. It would be balanced. But how could you balance players who already got active SP and the future players that would get only passive ? And i believe there aint just one solution to a problem. The worst part of the balance atm is not especially people getting really high SP wise. it's more about people struggling to reach a decent amount of SP. After all, when you've reached 10/15 million SP. you're pretty much just as tough in one role\weapon than a guy with 50 million SP in that same role\weapon. At least stat wise. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 516	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:25:00 - [119] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: This SP system need to be revamped to all passive training queues like in EVE Laurent. The current system is not good enough for a game in 2013. It feels like a RPG skill system from the 90s. Streamline, streamline and streamline... Like we say in Sweden: "You cannot add makeup to an old ugly Volvo car to make it look good" (Very rough translation of the saying). I'm a first hand support of the fully passive SP system. If dust was made the way i alone would want it to be, it would be fully passive. But many discussions have happend during beta and after. And Dust would be dead by now if it didnt had any active SP system. Also, we're talking about an FPS, not a game like EVE in which time perception and gameplay momentum are very different. The need for immediate rewarding, and the possibility to accelerate your training through playing seems to be mandatory. To be honest, i'm not even discussing fully passive anymore as i dont see it happened ever. One of the main reason being that the F2P model makes active SP a way too big source of income. Quote: A full passive system would also prohibit WP farming to gain insane amount of SP. It is the only way dust could ever be balanced SP wise between HC grind players and people with a life outside of new eden. It would be balanced. But how could you balance players who already got active SP and the future players that would get only passive ? And i believe there aint just one solution to a problem. Its simple: SP reset. The worst part of the balance atm is not especially people getting really high SP wise. it's more about people struggling to reach a decent amount of SP. After all, when you've reached 10/15 million SP. you're pretty much just as tough in one role\weapon than a guy with 50 million SP in that same role\weapon. At least stat wise. KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 125	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:28:00 - [120] - Quote 1. Keep cap. 2. Reward players for achieving weekly cap (be it a bonus sp rate or flat amount) 3. Unused/starter pool 4. Accelerated gain for new users 5. Reduced rollover for long periods of inactivity 6. Allow boosters to add to pool, have events to give additional incentive such as adding to pool as well. 7. KEEP passive SP but increase WP -> SP ratio when working on current cap. -7a.- Add more logical WPs as well for rewarding current roles that get nothing - point defense, repelling vehicles, stopping hacks, small reward for capping CRUs (5sp per spawn for a minute or so?) so that major valuable actions are rewarded.

calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 1224	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:51:00 - [121] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: I'd say have a roll over SP pool, but reduce active SP by 50% and increase passive SP to compensate. That'd reduce the grind quite a bit. are you ******* crazy.....afk 514 should never exist.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz 206	Posted - 2013.11.15 15:09:00 - [122] - Quote Mia Romani wrote: echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week A cap protects players from themselves. This triple SP weekend just proved to us all that we'll sit here and grind endlessly if CCP lets us. Players burning out and quitting within months is a far bigger problem than not attracting new players in the first place: This game will go nowhere if we develop a high turn over rate and can't retain players. No, the whole idea of a cap is what forces players to grind endlessly. Knowing that this is all you will get for the week, forces you to grind it out to completion, or else you feel that you wasted it. By your reasoning, the only reason players play, is to grind. Like an MMO, the point for me wasn't leveling, it was about the end game. The part after you do the horrible grind that is fun. New factional is a good start, improvements to PC would help. Another game mode, maybe even some PVE. These are things that pertain to player retention. I know some players may enjoy the "grind" but I certainly don't play simply to grind. It's all about that end game. Nuff Said
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz 206	Posted - 2013.11.15 15:13:00 - [123] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week The thought behind the cap is that once players get every skill they're interested in to 5 interest in the game will wane and they'll stop playing. Something like that anyway. The cap is there to prevent players from doing just that yes, but not because their interest will wane. CCP wants players to continue buying their products, booster and the such. But if you max out your skills, why buy anything from the aur store. I will say though, maybe for the moment this kinda holds true. The End game is a bit lacking atm. Need us some PvE Nuff Said
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 351	Posted - 2013.11.15 15:33:00 - [124] - Quote There are some issues thus far that I think need addressed. What is the reason we need to change the WP system? Seems there are multiple reason that people have described. Player retention and burnout. Help newbros out to help them get competitive. The fact there is a cap at all, drives people to grind because those points get lost if not earned. Personally, I only play to hit cap and then I am done for the week. I have never played a game were this is a "cap" on the XP you can earn in any amount of time. This sort of idea behind holding back the neck beards is just silly. I would prefer there be no cap at all, let me explain. Revamp the skill tree and reevaluate skill multipliers. Build a better designed nested skill tree. 1. The entire reason why SP is important in this game is to unlock stuff. Currently the amount of SP to invest in an skill up to level 4 is too high. The cost to invest up to level 5 should be insane. Yes I am going to use EVE as an example because EVE has a great balance of new vs old. In eve it takes 5 days to get most skills up to level 4. To get that skill up to level 5 it will take >5 days, most cases >20days. 2. People hate getting protostomped because it lessens the skill required to do well. Plenty of people can run militia gear and do really well, but when you are up against prototype suits with 1000hp its defiantly not "as easy". Increasing the cost of SP to get to prototype tiers makes them less prevalent. There also needs to be a tweak for cost of prototype stuff or income earned but thats another topic. 3. Most importantly it will allow younger players to quickly reach that gap in competitiveness. If it only takes several days to hit level 4 in a any given skill they can very quickly reach a level of competitiveness in various aspects. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Twitch
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2359	Posted - 2013.11.15 15:52:00 - [125] - Quote Absolute Idiom II wrote: I'd like to link to my suggestion for a large, constantly regenerating pool of SP: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=462915#post462915 Quote: The Alternative It's simple really. 1) Have an active SP reward pool which is the size of a 4x week's of SP, which with the current limits would be 761,600 SP. 2) Active SP rewards deplete this pool, as they do now. 3) Each tick of 30 minutes 566 SP are added back into the SP reward pool. 4) The pool never goes above the maximum size of 761,600 SP 5) Once empty, no rewards (or a nominal reward) is given). The Benefits You get to combine the pros of the weekly AND the daily cap! Pros: A) Whether you play weekly or daily, you have the opportunity to achieve the same number of active SP rewards from your plays. -- You can spread your 10 hours per week over the entire week, playing each day. Or you can have a marathon weekend and do it all in one go! B) No matter how much you have played, you will always have some more SP that you can earn the next day. A full day's worth of SP in fact. -- Even if you've earned an entire week's worth of active SP reward in the previous 2 days, you don't have to wait for a weekly reset day before it is worth playing some more C) No waiting for a reset at down time, just wait 30 minutes! D) It doesn't matter what the SP pool size is, the SP pool recovery rate is what sets how fast the maximum speed of SP accrual is. The SP pool could be set to a month's worth; the only affect would be how far in front players could be when comparing a full pool to an empty pool. Active boosters simply increase the rate at which the pool refills (and increases the max pool size). +1 This looks great. -ê HellsGÇáorm Director -ê `Gû¦Amarr VictorGû¦`
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1233	Posted - 2013.11.15 16:23:00 - [126] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: ..valuable stuff... This thread has grown into a much more complicated discussion than the merits of a rollover mechanic. It did last time around too. We are now discussing the entire sp system and game design. Probably unavoidable since these things are connected and bear directly on player experiences for noobs and vets alike. Laurent, i have a lot of respect for the opinions you present on the forums. They are typically well thought out and you have the best interests of the game as the central focus of your posts. ITT, i like what your post brings to the conversation. I agree with your design goals, perhaps with the caveat that at some point skill points lost is an ok thing. But that's a minor quibble and i'm willing to be neutral on that point. What i vehemently disagree with is your endorsement of the in-match passive skillpoint rewards(5sp/s) originally introduced by CCP(and without consulting the playerbase). The motivations are noble: to provide a helping hand to struggling players, to limit the magnitude of the skillpoint gap between casuals and grinders and to support various playstyles. However, best intentions notwithstanding, the passive in-match sp mechanic is ultimately destructive and i'm sure we can find many constructive alternatives that contribute much more to DUST and the player experience. Why the hatred for the passive match sp mechanic? Because it is the diametric opposite of a meritocratic reward system. Because it sends a message that engaging the enemy(or supporting your team) is neither honoured or required by the game mechanics. The fundamental criticism would be that it rewards passivity as a valid approach to the game. In a very real sense it devalues player effort, and an argument could be made that it is a patronizing, rather than an enabling, approach to struggling players. More could be said, but this is the essence of it. I believe that once a player becomes aware of this mechanic, there is a sense of psychological d+¬nouement: in a universe with a reputation as harsh and as legendary as New Eden's to discover that the developer is putting all players on a mandatory meritocratic welfare program is disheartening and disillusioning, imo. I believe that the game will pay a price for this in terms of credibility and romantic appeal. I realize this sounds a bit histrionic, but people are very sensitive in situations where the walk doesn't match the talk. The ultimate victim here is New Eden. Ok, so long story short, alternatives to a passive dole? It must be a mechanism that rewards only actions. My personal favourite is an asymmetrical WP to SP conversion factor based on how well a player did or didn't do in a given match. There are no doubt other, better mechanisms than mine. The point is that they must reward action and not reward passivity/disengagement. I support SP rollover.
843 Epidemic 445	Posted - 2013.11.15 16:24:00 - [127] - Quote I don't actually have a problem with the grind, as much time as it CAN consume, ultimately the player is in control of how much they play and what they take the game to be, as it is or as a job. Grinding is no real problem to be honest, and the lack of rollover is obviously a bit crappy. I think the rollover should be monthly. E.g. lets say in March you miss the first two weeks, so the cap is increased by two weeks for the latter two weeks. But I believe the rollover should be reset monthly, so someone couldn't grind their way to 10 million SP if they've missed months on end. New players also need a no-cap period until whatever the maximum passive SP possibly gained could be up until that point, e.g. right now I have a character that's just been building passive and no active, I believe it's at about 7 million, so the new player cap would be there. This would be a way to keep the new players up and keep that gap between active players and veterans steady whilst not punishing the active players for playing. Anyway, yeah. 843-BANE Director // Ranking Officer // BurgezzE.T.F Contact me here
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2135	Posted - 2013.11.15 16:41:00 - [128] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: ..valuable stuff... This thread has grown into a much more complicated discussion than the merits of a rollover mechanic. It did last time around too. We are now discussing the entire sp system and game design. Probably unavoidable since these things are connected and bear directly on player experiences for noobs and vets alike. Laurent, i have a lot of respect for the opinions you present on the forums. They are typically well thought out and you have the best interests of the game as the central focus of your posts. ITT, i like what your post brings to the conversation. I agree with your design goals, perhaps with the caveat that at some point skill points lost is an ok thing. But that's a minor quibble and i'm willing to be neutral on that point. What i vehemently disagree with is your endorsement of the in-match passive skillpoint rewards(5sp/s) originally introduced by CCP(and without consulting the playerbase). The motivations are noble: to provide a helping hand to struggling players, to limit the magnitude of the skillpoint gap between casuals and grinders and to support various playstyles. However, best intentions notwithstanding, the passive in-match sp mechanic is ultimately destructive and i'm sure we can find many constructive alternatives that contribute much more to DUST and the player experience. Why the hatred for the passive match sp mechanic? Because it is the diametric opposite of a meritocratic reward system. Because it sends a message that engaging the enemy(or supporting your team) is neither honoured or required by the game mechanics. The fundamental criticism would be that it rewards passivity as a valid approach to the game. In a very real sense it devalues player effort, and an argument could be made that it is a patronizing, rather than an enabling, approach to struggling players. More could be said, but this is the essence of it. I believe that once a player becomes aware of this mechanic, there is a sense of psychological d+¬nouement: in a universe with a reputation as harsh and as legendary as New Eden's to discover that the developer is putting all players on a mandatory meritocratic welfare program is disheartening and disillusioning, imo. I believe that the game will pay a price for this in terms of credibility and romantic appeal. I realize this sounds a bit histrionic, but people are very sensitive in situations where the walk doesn't match the talk. The ultimate victim here is New Eden. Ok, so long story short, alternatives to a passive dole? It must be a mechanism that rewards only actions. My personal favourite is an asymmetrical WP to SP conversion factor based on how well a player did or didn't do in a given match. There are no doubt other, better mechanisms than mine. The point is that they must reward action and not reward passivity/disengagement. First thank you. I almost cried a bit. I understand disliking the passive SP in fight entirely. Trust me. I spammed the forum back in the day when it was announced by CCP about the fact it would make people passively farm in the MCC. And it happened, and lasted for month (year ?) I wouldnt be saddened if it were to completely disappear at some point, far from that. I just tried offering a valid system using the established components. But yeah there is definitely a system, somewhere, in someone's mind, that would offer a much more valid and balance system regarding SP progression. Yet, the way it helps players and specific roles to still be in track SP wise seems to me like a decent enough idea. I know it has many downside. But to be fair, players being passive, or playing it safe isnt tied to passive SP in my opinion. In every FPS, you'll see people not taking chances, and hiding if the wind doesnt blow in their favor. Redlines, cowardness etcc arent a dust only thing. So i wouldnt pin that on the passive SP. Though i would agree that the current protection against AFK farming are way too weak and need to be addressed. No passive SP\WP gain while in the redline would already be a good first step for example. All i know is that the current system is not good enough. i'd rather get a better yet still not perfect system that allows for many things that arent possible now (rollover\New player experience and sp progression) than the perfect one in a year even though ultimately i'd agree with you regarding passive SP in battle. WP to SP only system sounds perfect on paper. And tbh before the beta was released, i always thought the active SP part of battles would be just that and that the off battle passive part of the SP earnings would be the main SP income source for everybody. In a way, it would be just the same but very different at the same time. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 905	Posted - 2013.11.15 16:44:00 - [129] - Quote I think it's important to separate the topic of SP pools and 'catching up' with vets. (the latter should never be implemented if you love the game and want to be playing it in 10 years time) When the SP pools/rollover thing was discussed months ago I recommended a logarithmically decreasing payout from an SP pool. (Comp. Sci graduate so this kind of stuff is second nature to me...) Basically you have daily injections of (constant) SP into the player's SP pool (which is enough to go from zero to full in 3-4 weeks). When calculating the amount of SP to award the player the input value from the battle is run through a logarithmically decreasing function that makes it so that the closer you get to emptying the pool the less SP you get. Now if you play your first battle in a month it's going to give you a lot of SP (could be reduced to not be overwhelming), ten battles in you're getting still very high rewards. Now if you stop playing for a month, during that session you might have emptied 3/4 of the SP pool. Enter the weekend warrior; he binges on weekends... He plays 20(?) matches every weekend, and he takes his SP pool from 3/4 to 2/4 every week. The last game he plays every weekend gives him half the SP the first game gives him. Last is the dope smoking college guy; he plays 10 matches every night (except weekends), and his SP pool is always at 1/4. He gets about half the SP of the weekend warrior per match. The reason his gameplay is rewarded is that at lower levels the SP pool regenerated a bit more per day.
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2422	Posted - 2013.11.15 17:05:00 - [130] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: I think it's important to separate the topic of SP pools and 'catching up' with vets. (the latter should never be implemented if you love the game and want to be playing it in 10 years time) When the SP pools/rollover thing was discussed months ago I recommended a logarithmically decreasing payout from an SP pool. (Comp. Sci graduate so this kind of stuff is second nature to me...) Basically you have daily injections of (constant) SP into the player's SP pool (which is enough to go from zero to full in 3-4 weeks). When calculating the amount of SP to award the player the input value from the battle is run through a logarithmically decreasing function that makes it so that the closer you get to emptying the pool the less SP you get. Now if you play your first battle in a month it's going to give you a lot of SP (could be reduced to not be overwhelming), ten battles in you're getting still very high rewards. Now if you stop playing for a month, during that session you might have emptied 3/4 of the SP pool. Enter the weekend warrior; he binges on weekends... He plays 20(?) matches every weekend, and he takes his SP pool from 3/4 to 2/4 every week. The last game he plays every weekend gives him half the SP the first game gives him. Last is the dope smoking college guy; he plays 10 matches every night (except weekends), and his SP pool is always at 1/4. He gets about half the SP of the weekend warrior per match. The reason his gameplay is rewarded is that at lower levels the SP pool regenerated a bit more per day. We had that before and it was universally hated.

xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 103	Posted - 2013.11.15 17:09:00 - [131] - Quote I think it is important to keep the in match passive SP. This helps support players that are in support roles, or correctly defending a point (in Skirmish/PC). You may have lower WP due to your point being quiet. You did the correct thing and your team won. Passive SP helps team players. Without this everything disolves into everyone playing slayers and K/D ratio becomes king again, rather than TEAM work / playing to the objectives.
Severus Smith Caldari State 427	Posted - 2013.11.15 17:10:00 - [132] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: I understand disliking the passive SP in fight entirely. Trust me. I spammed the forum back in the day when it was announced by CCP about the fact it would make people passively farm in the MCC. And it happened, and lasted for month (year ?) I wouldnt be saddened if it were to completely disappear at some point, far from that. I just tried offering a valid system using the established components. But yeah there is definitely a system, somewhere, in someone's mind, that would offer a much more valid and balance system regarding SP progression. Yet, the way it helps players and specific roles to still be in track SP wise seems to me like a decent enough idea. I know it has many downside. But to be fair, players being passive, or playing it safe isnt tied to passive SP in my opinion. In every FPS, you'll see people not taking chances, and hiding if the wind doesnt blow in their favor. Redlines, cowardness etcc arent a dust only thing. So i wouldnt pin that on the passive SP. Though i would agree that the current protection against AFK farming are way too weak and need to be addressed. No passive SP\WP gain while in the redline would already be a good first step for example. All i know is that the current system is not good enough. i'd rather get a better yet still not perfect system that allows for many things that arent possible now (rollover\New player experience and sp progression) than the perfect one in a year even though ultimately i'd agree with you regarding passive SP in battle. WP to SP only system sounds perfect on paper. And tbh before the beta was released, i always thought the active SP part of battles would be just that and that the off battle passive part of the SP earnings would be the main SP income source for everybody. In a way, it would be just the same but very different at the same time. What if you had WP = SP but the exchange value changes depending on how many Active SP you've gained over a period of time. Basically, supply side economics. - No more 1 second = 5 WP - No more weekly cap - 1 WP = 1 SP * exchange rate - The exchange rate is based on how many SP you have gained over the last 7 days. The more SP you've accumulated the lower the exchange rate. It would work similar to EVE LP. Where when the market gets over-saturated with Caldari LP the value of Caldari LP plummets and is worth less. So when a Veteran player plays 20 matches in a row and gains 3000 WP each, his SP to WP exchange rate decreases. You could start with a high exchange rate. 1 WP = 10 SP. So to new players it is exciting because your first match with 500 WP gets you 5000 SP. Then as you play more and your "supply" of SP increases the exchange rate falls. So the exchange rate drops from 10 to 9, then 8, then 7, etc... until eventually its at 1 or 0.5. Make it like 250,000 active SP over the last 7 days. As you approach this number the exchange rate decreases. There should be a floor, so really active players could pass the 250,000 number, but it would be really low like 0.5 or 0.25 exchange rate. This makes the game exciting to new players, keeps casual players involved without it being too grindy, and allows dedicated players to catch up since there is no "cap", only a progressively smaller exchange rate. It also completely kills AFK farming, and with CCP's new WP farming limit it's pretty hard to farm them actively. Ideas?
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2422	Posted - 2013.11.15 17:18:00 - [133] - Quote What does "Catching up to vets" mean anyway? Does it mean making one effective fitting that can kill a vet, or does it mean matching a year or three's SP in a few months? You can acomplish the former with a starter bonus pool, but attempting the latter is guaranteed to break the game. You simply can't earn SP fast enough without completely devaluing the rewards. There is no need to have everyone at the same level, just competative. But even there, does competative mean competative against proto vets, or simply competative against the players in match? A better academy system and a low level match mode could ensure competativeness without handing out 5M SP.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1234	Posted - 2013.11.15 17:21:00 - [134] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: I think it's important to separate the topic of SP pools and 'catching up' with vets. (the latter should never be implemented if you love the game and want to be playing it in 10 years time) When the SP pools/rollover thing was discussed months ago I recommended a logarithmically decreasing payout from an SP pool. (Comp. Sci graduate so this kind of stuff is second nature to me...) Basically you have daily injections of (constant) SP into the player's SP pool (which is enough to go from zero to full in 3-4 weeks). When calculating the amount of SP to award the player the input value from the battle is run through a logarithmically decreasing function that makes it so that the closer you get to emptying the pool the less SP you get. Now if you play your first battle in a month it's going to give you a lot of SP (could be reduced to not be overwhelming), ten battles in you're getting still very high rewards. Now if you stop playing for a month, during that session you might have emptied 3/4 of the SP pool. Enter the weekend warrior; he binges on weekends... He plays 20(?) matches every weekend, and he takes his SP pool from 3/4 to 2/4 every week. The last game he plays every weekend gives him half the SP the first game gives him. Last is the dope smoking college guy; he plays 10 matches every night (except weekends), and his SP pool is always at 1/4. He gets about half the SP of the weekend warrior per match. The reason his gameplay is rewarded is that at lower levels the SP pool regenerated a bit more per day. I heavily endorsed Rasatsu's logarithmically damped reward system when he first proposed it, and still do. In a very real mathematical sense all staged or tiered reward systems are an approximation to the logarithmic system. There are a lot of advantages to this system, but perhaps the biggest are that once you get a little bit of experience with it, it becomes very easy to estimate how much grinding time you need to reach your goals, and that there is no hard cap on your efforts(plus daily top-ups), and especially that if you only have a few hours a week to play you are well-rewarded for your time. It provides good results for casuals and prevents runaway grinding with one elegant equation. I support SP rollover.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2137	Posted - 2013.11.15 17:58:00 - [135] - Quote Skihids wrote: What does "Catching up to vets" mean anyway? Does it mean making one effective fitting that can kill a vet, or does it mean matching a year or three's SP in a few months? You can acomplish the former with a starter bonus pool, but attempting the latter is guaranteed to break the game. You simply can't earn SP fast enough without completely devaluing the rewards. There is no need to have everyone at the same level, just competative. But even there, does competative mean competative against proto vets, or simply competative against the players in match? A better academy system and a low level match mode could ensure competativeness without handing out 5M SP. Many things i d like to comment in the last posts but i have to be somewhere so will do that later. Still on the catching up to vets part, it s neither for me. It s more of having a way for new players to slowly compensate the gap they have with older players without it being an easy or too fast track to get what those older players have. Sp bank or "retro active" rollover on that matter can make that possible in some scenarios. And it s not only for new players. Would also be nice for people who would decide to start yet another character. But again it all depends on the general sp suystem scenario This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
echo47 Minmatar Republic 98	Posted - 2013.11.15 18:12:00 - [136] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Garth Mandra wrote: echo47 wrote: No skill point cap at all. Whats the point? If a player earns 2500 WPs he should get 2500 WPs. with no cap we may see player count rise. I think we would have fewr players playing just to cap out each week The thought behind the cap is that once players get every skill they're interested in to 5 interest in the game will wane and they'll stop playing. Something like that anyway. The cap is there to prevent players from doing just that yes, but not because their interest will wane. CCP wants players to continue buying their products, booster and the such. But if you max out your skills, why buy anything from the aur store. I will say though, maybe for the moment this kinda holds true. The End game is a bit lacking atm. Need us some PvE There is no end game. The idea is to continue to add content. With a focus on events and new content, including vehicles modules and skills it should be impossible to max out. The cap not only doesn't fit into the lore of the game but encourages wp farming and AFKers. Dust 514 is supposed to be hardcore, it shouldn't be easy.Why make it complicated just remove the cap. Personally I am starting to get the feeling of being held back. How nice would it be to actually get all the skill points earned after you have played your ass off and had one of your best games. With out the cap more players could start playing for the win instead of SP's.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 908	Posted - 2013.11.15 18:35:00 - [137] - Quote Skihids wrote: Rasatsu wrote: *snip* We had that before and it was universally hated. If you think we've had what I suggest you don't actually understand what I'm suggesting. I'm saying this as someone who not only has studied these kinds of algorithms but also has been here since E3. Vrain Matari wrote: I heavily endorsed Rasatsu's logarithmically damped reward system when he first proposed it, and still do. In a very real mathematical sense all staged or tiered reward systems are an approximation to the logarithmic system. There are a lot of advantages to this system, but perhaps the biggest are that once you get a little bit of experience with it, it becomes very easy to estimate how much grinding time you need to reach your goals, and that there is no hard cap on your efforts(plus daily top-ups), and especially that if you only have a few hours a week to play you are well-rewarded for your time. It provides good results for casuals and prevents runaway grinding with one elegant equation. Thank you, genius is so very rarely appreciated. ;) A complaint regarding the above algorithm is that it changes values too often. However this is easily solved by making the step up/down of SP rewards step functions instead of continuous, so that 3-4 games the same evening would give the same SP until you deplete the SP pool enough to step down a level.
Slag Emberforge Immortal Retribution 125	Posted - 2013.11.15 18:53:00 - [138] - Quote This scaling wp->sp degradation sounds absolutely terrible. It caters to casuals and hurts the people who already play games till cap every week. We just need to modify the pool to regenerate constantly rather than harsh breaks from every Tuesday to Wednesday. New users get some points thrown into the pool and faster initial accrual rate, and that's it. I myself would find it infuriating to not have the wp/time I spend in combat to never line up with my end reward, who enjoys non-linear progression?
Kilo Shells G.U.T.Z 11	Posted - 2013.11.15 18:58:00 - [139] - Quote Some of these ideas are very good. But, I know it's an odd point but I could see new players getting SP faster than they grow in wisdom. In my eyes this would lead too new players spending millions of SP on "useless" skills and then suddenly being tapped out.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 908	Posted - 2013.11.15 19:06:00 - [140] - Quote Slag Emberforge wrote: This scaling wp->sp degradation sounds absolutely terrible. It caters to casuals and hurts the people who already play games till cap every week. We just need to modify the pool to regenerate constantly rather than harsh breaks from every Tuesday to Wednesday. New users get some points thrown into the pool and faster initial accrual rate, and that's it. I myself would find it infuriating to not have the wp/time I spend in combat to never line up with my end reward, who enjoys non-linear progression? Well, the question is do you want DUST to still be a game where gaining SP matter in 10 years? I have a 7 year old EVE account and there's still stuff to train. Being non-linear in the way I suggest would allow people who enjoy playing (way too much?) to still gain SP relative to less dedicated players, while casual gamers won't feel left out because they aren't getting any SP... At least they would get in active SP the same SP in that time span as we get by having the passive boosters. Basically any "suggestion" in this thread that doesn't play out the progressions 10 years in to the futures are suspect. (Or rather; junk / death to the future of this game)

Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1234	Posted - 2013.11.15 19:09:00 - [141] - Quote Kilo Shells wrote: Some of these ideas are very good. But, I know it's an odd point but I could see new players getting SP faster than they grow in wisdom. In my eyes this would lead too new players spending millions of SP on "useless" skills and then suddenly being tapped out. This is a good point. Someone mentioned a free respec for new players, maybe after a certain sp level was reached or maybe better a certain WP level. I support SP rollover.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 908	Posted - 2013.11.15 19:35:00 - [142] - Quote *CROSS POSTING* Mike deVoid;957720 wrote: Okay, so it's stretched long enough that it'd be fairly consistent for a daily player. What about weekend players? Also, difference WP -> SP rewards for different players would an issue. So although there might be very little inconsistency within a single small play session - you have differences over long play sessions, between sessions with larger gaps gaps, and between different players. A weakness of this is that players who ask the question "Am I being fairly rewarded?" don't have a simple or easily accessible answer. Plus, as a programmer you're a special breed: you're very comfortable with complexity whereas most people aren't and don't trust things they can't understand - especially when they thing it should be simple. Well, that is one of the things that I work on (in terms of personal development) constantly; where I see complexity there are times where I can reduce the complexity to a system that I can make sense of... But explaining it even to my fellow programmers can be difficult. Sometimes it is along the lines of; "it's better if you do the ID translation at the Y level rather than the X level", "why?", "cause it, uhm... " and then I have to explain architectural decisions and good coding practices that (for the former) is too complex to explain in detail and for the latter is only really understood by a coder who's spent a lot of time thinking about readable/clean code... /slightly drunk, rant off... Things should be simple, but if the step function is done right the players will feel it is simple when they see that their friends who play +++A LOT+++ get X amount of SP per week, they (who play average a couple matches a day) get X * 2/3, the weeken warrior gets X * 1/2 and the family guy gets X * 1/4... On average... Now you are worried about the change in the SP payout. The algorithm I recommend does have a noticeable difference in payout... However that is for the irregular gamers only; if you play consistently you have the same SP payout (assuming you don't straddle one of the steps of the step SP function). So in terms of SP reward volatility; high (weed) college student -> low volatility, weekend warrior dad -> earn enough and you can see the drop in SP gains, playing-GTA-BF-WTF-then-DUST guy gets good SP on first match (or dampened by a border dampening function) and then gets a steep reduction... Basically the more you play the more stable your payouts are going to be; the reward for being an addicts is _adjustable_ with my recommended algorithm. And that is the important part; it gives knobs to adjust while the current (and recommended) algorithms are just bad approximations of what we would really want to see.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2364	Posted - 2013.11.15 20:18:00 - [143] - Quote Rasatsu your suggestion is dope. -ê HellsGÇáorm Director -ê `Gû¦Amarr VictorGû¦`
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 911	Posted - 2013.11.15 20:29:00 - [144] - Quote Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote: Rasatsu your suggestion is dope. Sorry, in Japan it is really hard to safely get any dope... However yes; seen from the perspective off someone who understands both EVE and DUST skill progressions in terms of a decade or two, yes... my recommendations are geared towards depriving the common DUST merc from easy gains. Derp.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1309	Posted - 2013.11.15 20:56:00 - [145] - Quote Triple or Double Active SP (similar to previous events) for players under 10,000,000 SP SP = WP after the Bonus Cap for everybody This will create more "need" to play for vets and beginners alike. Wanna retain new players? 10,000 WP to leave Academy PvE Cheeseburgers.
Wombat in combat TeamPlayers 157	Posted - 2013.11.15 21:25:00 - [146] - Quote This is how I would like to see it: 1. Retroactive rollover SP. If you miss out on a week you can catch up later. Active SP pool for new accounts would be 190,400 SP * weeks since game release + extra SP granted in 2x and 3x SP events. Meaning new players can almost catch up with veterans but it would be allot of work. So the only thing new accounts would miss out on would be passive SP. Preferably this should be retroactive, meaning if you're a vet and have always capped out but missed week here or there you could catch up on that. Retroactive would be really nice but not a must. 2. Double soft cap. Meaning once you've emptied active pool (capped out) you would earn 2 SP for every 1 WP. Currently it's at 1 WP = 1 SP. That means if you earn 1000 WP in a game you'd get 2000 SP, 3000 SP with an active booster, 4000 SP with Omega active.
Flint Beastgood III GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 335	Posted - 2013.11.15 21:27:00 - [147] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Make the SP total of Dust's highest SP player the soft cap. Allow everyone under that total to grind until their heart is content. For the top SP player, increase his or her SP soft cap every week by the same amount as the current weekly cap. Do this and there's no need for a rollover. If the top person grinds through their soft cap and creates more distance between them and the rest of the field, they've actually done us all a favor by increasing the new soft cap that we can all grind to. The rookies are happy because they'll be able to become competitive quickly and the vets are happy because they can develop their characters horizontally. Remember, you hit a point of diminishing returns once you're around 15 mil SP. We need to focus on getting players to that point quickly while also letting vets enjoy further character development opportunities that don't really give them a significant edge over those under them. I had totally forgotten about this idea! I said this when Uprising was released. +1 Gÿó +¦ +¦ Gÿó Meta Gaming V > Proficiency I
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz 207	Posted - 2013.11.15 21:53:00 - [148] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Skihids wrote: What does "Catching up to vets" mean anyway? Does it mean making one effective fitting that can kill a vet, or does it mean matching a year or three's SP in a few months? You can acomplish the former with a starter bonus pool, but attempting the latter is guaranteed to break the game. You simply can't earn SP fast enough without completely devaluing the rewards. There is no need to have everyone at the same level, just competative. But even there, does competative mean competative against proto vets, or simply competative against the players in match? A better academy system and a low level match mode could ensure competativeness without handing out 5M SP. Many things i d like to comment in the last posts but i have to be somewhere so will do that later. Still on the catching up to vets part, it s neither for me. It s more of having a way for new players to slowly compensate the gap they have with older players without it being an easy or too fast track to get what those older players have. Sp bank or "retro active" rollover on that matter can make that possible in some scenarios. And it s not only for new players. Would also be nice for people who would decide to start yet another character. But again it all depends on the general sp suystem scenario My idea behind it is that a newberry needs to get to a certain point SP wise to be halfway effective. A faster progression, which could be a higher return on WP than average, would help close the gap between vets, but still leave them way ahead. Just enough to at the very least let them get a ADV suit and weapon, shield and armor skills lvl 1. Nuff Said
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2140	Posted - 2013.11.16 12:51:00 - [149] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Skihids wrote: What does "Catching up to vets" mean anyway? Does it mean making one effective fitting that can kill a vet, or does it mean matching a year or three's SP in a few months? You can acomplish the former with a starter bonus pool, but attempting the latter is guaranteed to break the game. You simply can't earn SP fast enough without completely devaluing the rewards. There is no need to have everyone at the same level, just competative. But even there, does competative mean competative against proto vets, or simply competative against the players in match? A better academy system and a low level match mode could ensure competativeness without handing out 5M SP. Many things i d like to comment in the last posts but i have to be somewhere so will do that later. Still on the catching up to vets part, it s neither for me. It s more of having a way for new players to slowly compensate the gap they have with older players without it being an easy or too fast track to get what those older players have. Sp bank or "retro active" rollover on that matter can make that possible in some scenarios. And it s not only for new players. Would also be nice for people who would decide to start yet another character. But again it all depends on the general sp suystem scenario My idea behind it is that a newberry needs to get to a certain point SP wise to be halfway effective. A faster progression, which could be a higher return on WP than average, would help close the gap between vets, but still leave them way ahead. Just enough to at the very least let them get a ADV suit and weapon, shield and armor skills lvl 1. I'm not really in favor of offering an automatic faster progression for new players till X SP. After all, everyone had to live through those hard times at some point. Offering a free booster to new players (a 7 or 30 day), and make sure they dont hit a cap that will discourage them from playing at some point and maybe push them away definitely would be a good start. I strongly 1 SP should have the same "work" value for any player. Thus why i suggested the "passive sp rollover" solution that tends to make things more even for everyone. It's not perfect but use already existing mecanics and answers to what i think are the main goals active sp progression system should have. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !
Karl Marx II Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2013.11.16 16:14:00 - [150] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Skihids wrote: What does "Catching up to vets" mean anyway? Does it mean making one effective fitting that can kill a vet, or does it mean matching a year or three's SP in a few months? You can acomplish the former with a starter bonus pool, but attempting the latter is guaranteed to break the game. You simply can't earn SP fast enough without completely devaluing the rewards. There is no need to have everyone at the same level, just competative. But even there, does competative mean competative against proto vets, or simply competative against the players in match? A better academy system and a low level match mode could ensure competativeness without handing out 5M SP. Many things i d like to comment in the last posts but i have to be somewhere so will do that later. Still on the catching up to vets part, it s neither for me. It s more of having a way for new players to slowly compensate the gap they have with older players without it being an easy or too fast track to get what those older players have. Sp bank or "retro active" rollover on that matter can make that possible in some scenarios. And it s not only for new players. Would also be nice for people who would decide to start yet another character. But again it all depends on the general sp suystem scenario My idea behind it is that a newberry needs to get to a certain point SP wise to be halfway effective. A faster progression, which could be a higher return on WP than average, would help close the gap between vets, but still leave them way ahead. Just enough to at the very least let them get a ADV suit and weapon, shield and armor skills lvl 1. I'm not really in favor of offering an automatic faster progression for new players till X SP. After all, everyone had to live through those hard times at some point. Offering a free booster to new players (a 7 or 30 day), and make sure they dont hit a cap that will discourage them from playing at some point and maybe push them away definitely would be a good start. I strongly 1 SP should have the same "work" value for any player. Thus why i suggested the "passive sp rollover" solution that tends to make things more even for everyone. It's not perfect but use already existing mecanics and answers to what i think are the main goals active sp progression system should have. Obviously you don't because you prefer to run in a protosquad and crush the spirits of the new players so that they quit and leave the game We don't want to hear the opinions of CPM's you should just pass on the real players feedback to CCP you're to blame for all the problems we still have in this game, countless solutions and problems have been talked about on these forums and nothing still gets done .. either CCP are ignorant and actually don't give a damn about player feedback or you aren't passing on our ideas to them Join the Revolution

Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 553	Posted - 2013.11.16 20:41:00 - [151] - Quote I apologize for not reading the full thread, I suspect this idea may have been mentioned, but I wanted to post it here for consideration in case it wasnGÇÖt brought up. First I agree with new players having 0 cap until some level is established (somewhere around 2-5 million SP). Next I would like to see a decay mechanism implemented for the SP rollover. You have your weekly SP pool that can benefit from boosters as well as a bank that (a. either canGÇÖt be boosted, or b. can be boosted with a different booster that has a reduced maybe 1.3x active SP). Every week the unused weekly SP is dumped into the bank and all SP in the bank is reduced by some percent (say -20%). Your weekly pool will be drained first, and only until you cap out will you start to burn through your banked SP. Events would only affect the weekly SP and not any banked SP. This system has the benefit of rewarding/incentivizing regular gameplay, but giving people who have taken a break an increased incentive to return and play to help catch up. The following is an example of someone who takes a 8 week vacation from DUST with a 20% decay rate: Week 1: 190,000 Weekly SP not used Week 2: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 190,000 banked, 0 SP destroyed Week 3: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 342,000 banked, 38,000 SP destroyed Week 4: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 463,600 banked, 68,400 SP destroyed Week 5: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 560,880 banked, 92,720 SP destroyed Week 6: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 638,704 banked, 112,176 SP destroyed Week 7: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 700,963 banked, 127,741 SP destroyed Week 8: 190,000 Weekly SP not used 750,771 banked, 146,193 SP destroyed Week 9: 190,000 Weekly SP IS USED, 790,616 in bank, 150,154 SP will be destroyed if bank isnGÇÖt depleted LetGÇÖs assume the player takes a week off work and grinds up her weekly SP plus her full banked SP. She will have 980,616 SP from the weekly SP + the baked SP. If she had capped out every week she would have 1,710,000 SP over those same 9 weeks (excluding boosters). I think this is a reasonable gap that is enough to incentivize play without punishing people who miss a week or two very harshly, but still allow for players to catch up a significant amount of SP when they come back. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 348	Posted - 2013.11.16 23:06:00 - [152] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Make the SP total of Dust's highest SP player the soft cap. Allow everyone under that total to grind until their heart is content. For the top SP player, increase his or her SP soft cap every week by the same amount as the current weekly cap. Do this and there's no need for a rollover. If the top person grinds through their soft cap and creates more distance between them and the rest of the field, they've actually done us all a favor by increasing the new soft cap that we can all grind to. The rookies are happy because they'll be able to become competitive quickly and the vets are happy because they can develop their characters horizontally. Remember, you hit a point of diminishing returns once you're around 15 mil SP. We need to focus on getting players to that point quickly while also letting vets enjoy further character development opportunities that don't really give them a significant edge over those under them. No rollover, just a soft cap for all of Dust based on whatever the SP total of the #1 SP player is at any given time. In other words, the top guy pushes the frontier forward. However much he grinds past his soft cap is everyone's soft cap in Dust. The top SP guys would be doing the community a favor and gaining notoriety for raising the ceiling. Boosters would still be valuable because they would allow everyone to climb faster.
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 1207	Posted - 2013.11.17 00:49:00 - [153] - Quote get rid of the cap. get rid of in battle passive sp make 1 war point equal to 2 sp or increase out of battle passive sp by 1/2 (or both) if not this, then a roll over system. but details need to be worked out. I don't think earning sp should be made super easy. short of being a grind it should be part of the challenge. I think the best thing for new players would be to have their own matches to go into away from vets with an accelerated sp system in place till they hit 5 mil sp. insert witty or profound statement here _______.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 122	Posted - 2013.11.17 03:44:00 - [154] - Quote Quite a few people have been suggesting variations of bonuses, or no cap till X to help get new players 'effective'. Coming from EVE this is a weird notion, and something we hear far less on the EVE forums. I think the reason for that is the bar to be 'effective' is much higher in DUST than in EVE. EVE all that you need to be able to participate is a frigate and some tackle, something you can be reasonably proficient with in a day or two. By the end of a week you should be able to fly your ship well. In DUST though thats not the case. A weeks worth of sp can get you skilled into a handful of STD items, along with rank 1 in a few core skills. You're a long way from being 'effective'. I think it would benefit the game greatly to reject any notion of 'catching up' new players, and instead balance the lower tiers so that they can get 'effective' sooner. Don't force them to grind for weeks to get there, they won't be around by then. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ numbers just for illustration As for the overall SP system, I liked where Rasatsu was going but I think we can simplify things slightly. I think a bonus pool that is increased daily is better than any weekly system. It allows someone to empty their pool one day and come back the next and have some bonus waiting for them. It minimizes the 'downtime' between emptying your pool, and when you get your next allotment of bonus sp. People who cap out are not really the focus of this though, since SP rollover is really for those who can not cap out in a week (for whatever reason). The problem with just doing a SP rollover is that it only really benefits those who can usually cap out, but for whatever reason got a little behind in a week. It does nothing to help out casuals, and nothing to incentivise people to return. I mean honestly, lets say you took a month off and then decided to come back, does grinding out a months worth of SP on top of what you will keep getting really sound appealing? Or would it be a turn off? My suggestion is that your sp bonus pool increases daily, and instead of pulling from the pool a fixed amount, or a logarithmically decreasing amount, you use a percent based system. Say you win a match and your base reward would be 2000 sp (total from in match passive and active, let ccp figure out that balance as needed). Lets also assume you were on vacation last week and didn't play at all. You come back to a weeks worth of bonus, plus what you got for that day. Lets use 200k as a nice easy number. Your 2000sp win is matched by say, 3% of your bonus pool, for an extra 6k netting you 8k total. 33 matches later your pool is empty and you're getting just your 2k. By using a percent to empty the pool you ensure that no matter its size, it empties at a constant rate. For those that don't have the time to cap each week, they will just play with a pool, pulling from it. As it grows, so to does their rewards. They never feel like they are behind because of they are pulling a percentage, and the further behind they are the larger their rewards would be, helping to keep them closer to those who have the time to cap out. For that player i mentioned earlier who took a month off, he has this nice fat pool of sp waiting for him, calling him to come back. Because he will be getting a percent each match he will get through that large pool in a week or so, ensuring hes not welcomed back with a grind, just a weeks worth of excellent sp rewards from matches. So tldr: Convert weekly passive SP + active SP / SP 'cap' into a simpler system where each day a fixed amount of bonus sp is added to your pool. Do not limit the size of this bonus pool, let each day just add to it Each match, your sp award is some base value (passive+active up to a cap) and a fixed % of SP from the pool until empty Boosters can modify the daily allotment of sp. Double / Triple SP events won't increase the grind, alleviating one of the player complaints about those events. The only thing I didn't cover (i think) was afk abuse for those grinding beyond the cap. To counter that make the base reward based 100% off activity after your pool is depleted. Only those who played tons of games and started afking at the end would find their base reward diminished. Those who want to actively keep playing... more power to them, they just need to do it actively. Those who empty their pool and then start to afk get... nothing. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
emtbraincase Falconpunch Hatesurfers 30	Posted - 2013.11.17 04:28:00 - [155] - Quote This thread TL;DR But I hope the gist of it was "We will have an updated method of earning SP SoonGäó" My preference is to scale back the bonus as you progress, to the point where you end up at the cap we have now. If possible it would be nice for it to be a percentage of the highest SP character in the game as of the last day/week/month/etc, but any ridiculously high value where you have the option to be full proto with passives in a chosen role. Dividing effectiveness would then be a detriment early on. So a new recruit would have no cap to their SP until they hit, saomething like, 1 million SP earned (not counting starting sp). Then you start to begin getting capped at an increasing rate as you reach certain SP milestones, and eventually ending up at our current cap level once you are within 10% of the top SP player (who is always capped at our current level). Nobody has to be able to "overtake" the top spot unless they play less than the person below.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 348	Posted - 2013.11.17 06:22:00 - [156] - Quote Flint Beastgood III wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Make the SP total of Dust's highest SP player the soft cap. Allow everyone under that total to grind until their heart is content. For the top SP player, increase his or her SP soft cap every week by the same amount as the current weekly cap. Do this and there's no need for a rollover. If the top person grinds through their soft cap and creates more distance between them and the rest of the field, they've actually done us all a favor by increasing the new soft cap that we can all grind to. The rookies are happy because they'll be able to become competitive quickly and the vets are happy because they can develop their characters horizontally. Remember, you hit a point of diminishing returns once you're around 15 mil SP. We need to focus on getting players to that point quickly while also letting vets enjoy further character development opportunities that don't really give them a significant edge over those under them. I had totally forgotten about this idea! I said this when Uprising was released. +1 Thanks. It's simple, and it would be an exciting way to reward everyone while also making the rookies more competitive faster.
GENERAL FCF Sentinels of New Eden 9	Posted - 2013.11.17 09:56:00 - [157] - Quote Raise the weekly bonus cap to 250,000SP. Just like daily bonuses, have a weekly bonus as well, meaning, for every 7days you consecutively login, your weekly bonus cap is raised by 5,000SP! The weekly bonus is capped at 100,000SP so it would take Hard Core players about 20 weeks to reach their weekly cap bonus pool! After the weekly bonus cap is reached make the exhausted SP rate 2,000 instead of 1,000. And for the new players, don't put a weekly cap on them until 5MillionSP. (The academy is a great idea BTW) CCP I thank you and love the POTENTIAL IDEA(The Immortal trailer) of your product called DUST 514:)
Bunny Demon Robbing The Hood Public Disorder. 6	Posted - 2013.11.17 10:52:00 - [158] - Quote What if the sp that rolled over was cut down by, say, 1/3 so you would still have your normal weekly cap but also 2/3 of what you had left over from last week This way it encourages you to play every week but doesn't completely screw you over if you don't cap out Donate isk to the guy above ^ (Or me, whichever you prefer)
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 917	Posted - 2013.11.17 11:12:00 - [159] - Quote No cap until X SP just means new players are going to burn out in the first month instead of playing for years. Apply some thought before making suggestions...
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 872	Posted - 2013.11.17 12:45:00 - [160] - Quote Well it obvious that CCP won't, and can't, simply choose the ideas which (apparently) are most popular - because most players are ******* awful game designers. Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 1950	Posted - 2013.11.17 19:57:00 - [161] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Hey all, As someone in on the meeting with the CPM yesterday I can say that it was pretty great and went well! Having spoken with a bunch of you, the SP Rollover seems to be something that's been thrown around the community quite a while before I joined. It's something we're definitely interested in exploring further and discussing internally, but I'd welcome any thoughts you all have as to what would be the best system to encourage both new and veteran players. The CPM are going to be continually involved in discussions with us about this and would be a great place to start for getting your thoughts and suggestions heard. Cheers :) I think you guys should increase the SP given to new characters and bring in an rollover system. I'd go as far as removing passive SP and uncapping altogether, but I know that won't go over well. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe PC RISE of LEGION 1950	Posted - 2013.11.17 20:07:00 - [162] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Make the SP total of Dust's highest SP player the soft cap. Allow everyone under that total to grind until their heart is content. For the top SP player, increase his or her SP soft cap every week by the same amount as the current weekly cap. Do this and there's no need for a rollover. If the top person grinds through their soft cap and creates more distance between them and the rest of the field, they've actually done us all a favor by increasing the new soft cap that we can all grind to. The rookies are happy because they'll be able to become competitive quickly and the vets are happy because they can develop their characters horizontally. Remember, you hit a point of diminishing returns once you're around 15 mil SP. We need to focus on getting players to that point quickly while also letting vets enjoy further character development opportunities that don't really give them a significant edge over those under them. There's no way this will jive with the Eve dudes. Their heads would explode. But it's a great and simple idea. It also gives a reason for people to keep active boosters running (well if they aren't close to the capped SP amount) which means more revenue for CCP. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 560	Posted - 2013.11.18 21:52:00 - [163] - Quote So I finished reading everything and I have some concerns about some of the proposals: Cap is based on highest playerGÇÖs cap. The problem with is is we essentially have 2 groups: (a)those who are pushing the cap forward every week and (b)everyone else. The first group represents the most hardcore players (who are most likely to be buying boosters). Only one player from this group needs to run boosters to move the soft cap forward each week, the rest can simply grind (at a slightly slower pace) un-boosted to catch up with the leader each week. So CCP would be killing their revenue from a huge chunk of the players most likely to be paying them. The second group essentially has no cap at all (practically speaking) so they have no penalty for not logging in. I know I personally would take a lot more breaks if I knew I could catch up later and not be missing out on SP. I would probably have half the SP I currently have now under such a system, whereas the current system incentivizes regular play. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone, and there are probably many people who wouldnGÇÖt bother to log in if they know theyGÇÖre not loosing out on potential SP, like they currently are. There are other suggestions that want to accelerate the rate of SP gain under various circumstances. I have 2 problems with this. The first is that it de-values the effort already put in by players with a lot of SP. They had to spend hundreds of hours to get where they are, and itGÇÖs kind of a slap in the face if the same could be achieved in a small fraction of the time. Another issue with this is that the system actually incentivizes NOT playing. Why would I want to grind now at some slow rate, when I could simply wait and be more GÇ£productiveGÇ¥ later (with each in-game minute generating much more SP for me)? Furthermore, if people cap quicker with a system thatGÇÖs accelerating their gameplay, then theyGÇÖre playing fewer matches every week which means that number of concurrent users will plummet. If that number gets too low (I donGÇÖt know what the threshold is), the matchmaker will really start to struggle, which will cause more people to leave and we will have a downward spiral clusterf*ck that would kill the game. I think the fear of loss is a powerful motivator that keeps people playing each week despite stale gameplay, frustrating mechanics, and other issues. The game needs to be so interesting that people want to log-in and play because they enjoy the gameplay. I think most of us are only doing it for the SP right now, knowing that our early struggles will pay off years later when there is a high population, fun gameplay and we have the skills to make the most of it. I think any rollover system needs to be realistic about these motivations, and the state of the game. IGÇÖve had a hard time making myself cap out since 1.6 with the horrible TTK, AR + scanner + GÇÿnade spam. ThatGÇÖs why, after reading the full thread, IGÇÖm convinced that my proposal of a decaying weekly bank is the way to go. People still have a fear of loss since they will loose SP from their bank if they donGÇÖt use it, but the nature of a percentage-based decay rate is the penalty is small if you keep your banked SP low, but significant if you let it get too big (eventually hitting equilibrium with the incoming weekly SP to create a hard cap on the banked SP pool size). This incentivizes REGULAR weekly participation, without punishing people who take a week or two off very harshly. It also lets players who have stepped away for many months to return with a generous pool (but not unlimited) to help them catch back up, and to incentivize buying a GÇ£Banked SP Booster,GÇ¥ which helps fund development. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2013.11.18 22:28:00 - [164] - Quote This is a real world example of what is being asked for with a "catch up" system that people are asking for. -I just got hired at a new job but I haven't made the same amount of money as they guy that's been there for twenty years who's made six hundred thousand. I want extra pay so that I can gain at least two hundred thousand in one year so I can "catch up". It's only fair as I haven't been here as long to make the same amount of money. I say switch to fully passive skilling like the Eve system and no-one will have to worry about the cap ever again. Then the only excuse for not having steady progression is in letting the skill queue run dry. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
castba Penguin's March 215	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:45:00 - [165] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I say switch to fully passive skilling like the Eve system and no-one will have to worry about the cap ever again. Then the only excuse for not having steady progression is in letting the skill queue run dry. Implementing that now would be very, very interesting as it would mean an SP reset of all players. The problems would be player retention, incentive for jaded players to play and refunding AUR players have spent on boosters. That said, I actually wouldn't mind if this did happen as long as 1. everyone started with ~2mil SP. It would definitely increase the importance of early skill decisions 2. SP generated at 1 every 1.5 per seconds without boosters (it would mean just over 400k SP per week - close to the same as if capping with the current system) I Support SP Rollover
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 376	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:57:00 - [166] - Quote castba wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I say switch to fully passive skilling like the Eve system and no-one will have to worry about the cap ever again. Then the only excuse for not having steady progression is in letting the skill queue run dry. Implementing that now would be very, very interesting as it would mean an SP reset of all players. The problems would be player retention, incentive for jaded players to play and refunding AUR players have spent on boosters. That said, I actually wouldn't mind if this did happen as long as 1. everyone started with ~2mil SP. It would definitely increase the importance of early skill decisions 2. SP generated at 1 every 1.5 per seconds without boosters (it would mean just over 400k SP per week - close to the same as if capping with the current system) SP reset would be unnecessary though the AUR refund for unused active boosters would be. As for 400k SP per week, I'd love to finally make that amount of SP weekly. With that kind of boost in passive SP gains no-one would need the extra 1.5 mil starting SP. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 170	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:24:00 - [167] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. you know I don't like the idea of catch up, but say no cap up to 10mil allows them to make some mistakes and still be competitive.
Templar 10 Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 22	Posted - 2013.11.19 01:38:00 - [168] - Quote 10m no cap sounds interesting to be honest would allow for more selective how ever the player with that much could proto suit and gun and possibly shields and plates but not fit them all to suits i am just guessing on that tho
emtbraincase Falconpunch Hatesurfers 30	Posted - 2013.11.19 01:52:00 - [169] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: So I finished reading everything and I have some concerns about some of the proposals: Cap is based on highest playerGÇÖs cap. The problem with is is we essentially have 2 groups: (a)those who are pushing the cap forward every week and (b)everyone else. The first group represents the most hardcore players (who are most likely to be buying boosters). Only one player from this group needs to run boosters to move the soft cap forward each week, the rest can simply grind (at a slightly slower pace) un-boosted to catch up with the leader each week. So CCP would be killing their revenue from a huge chunk of the players most likely to be paying them. The second group essentially has no cap at all (practically speaking) so they have no penalty for not logging in. I know I personally would take a lot more breaks if I knew I could catch up later and not be missing out on SP. I would probably have half the SP I currently have now under such a system, whereas the current system incentivizes regular play. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone, and there are probably many people who wouldnGÇÖt bother to log in if they know theyGÇÖre not loosing out on potential SP, like they currently are. There are other suggestions that want to accelerate the rate of SP gain under various circumstances. I have 2 problems with this. The first is that it de-values the effort already put in by players with a lot of SP. They had to spend hundreds of hours to get where they are, and itGÇÖs kind of a slap in the face if the same could be achieved in a small fraction of the time. Another issue with this is that the system actually incentivizes NOT playing. Why would I want to grind now at some slow rate, when I could simply wait and be more GÇ£productiveGÇ¥ later (with each in-game minute generating much more SP for me)? Furthermore, if people cap quicker with a system thatGÇÖs accelerating their gameplay, then theyGÇÖre playing fewer matches every week which means that number of concurrent users will plummet. If that number gets too low (I donGÇÖt know what the threshold is), the matchmaker will really start to struggle, which will cause more people to leave and we will have a downward spiral clusterfck that would kill the game. edit, took out a section for space* Sorry so long a response I will try to address most of your comments/concerns, as to my own personal tastes and recent revelations thanks to your post above, without insulting you, as I agree with most of what you've said. It is that I think the conclusion is different, due to their effect and also a more fleshed out idea I now have. First, I also did mention in a post of mine that they would, in the highest tier (maybe within the top 10% of that top), be capped at our current levels to promote the top to keep fighting for it as is. It has worked as far as cash made (I hope), and this method doesn't rely on helping anyone who isn't in that bottom 90%. if the "cap" is only reset monthly (with monthly update/patch we seem to regularly see) then it would serve to increase the number of boosters, since nobody that far along can afford to fall behind by 1 month of SP without some repercussions. This value would be reset, and people would be established in their "SP tier". Then, at the immediately following Wed reset, you would be able to earn SP, capped at a weekly level, based on where you are compared to the top SP player. The following numbers are for basic framework, to be adjusted as those in power see fit. (before boosters added) 0 SP - 1,999,999 SP = No cap (get you playing and earning for every match) 2 Million SP+ will follow these rules 10-29% of "cap" = 1 million SP per week 30-59% of cap = 800,000 SP per week 60-74% of cap = 500,000 SP per week 75-89% of cap = 350,000 SP per week 90%+ of cap = current levels (maybe bumped to 250,000) The values are negotiable, as well as %, but this will make those new to the game to progress quickly early on, and maybe catch up quickly. I can also see exploitation in it at the top, but I will have to assume that it wouldn't be very feasible since the gap isn't large enough to make up for much. This is not a representation of the playerbase either. This is a static comparison of your SP to the top SP player at that time, so there could be 3/4 of the playerbase in the bottom tier. This would mean that moving up is possible, since you earn more early, and staying on top takes work. There could be a pool available, but cap it at whatever the bottom tier could have in a week (at least in this example). Second, I agree that it would devalue the time spent by those longer-term players. However, if it meant more noobs not giving up because they are actually seeing improvement in the merc, and those noobs becoming cannon fodder for the long-timers, then I think they will be OK with that. I also understand that it would limit player activity, but only of the top players in pub matches, which most would like to see less (can't be that many protostompers out there). Thus hopefully top players play FW or PC and leave pubs for noobs who can't go elsewhere (relistically) My goal would be to have 50% of the playerbase in the top 2-3 tier, with the bottom reserved for those who need the SP most to have a fighting chance in New Eden.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 97	Posted - 2013.11.19 02:20:00 - [170] - Quote I am in favor of roll over . That makes since . But let's be real people and stop " baiting and switching " to drum up player numbers . The content and the gameplay should be the key reasons that people play and stay with Dust 514 . Me myself , I'm starting to get tired of the sales and the percentages off of items every month . It creates an ungrateful and spoiled community , that will never be satisfied and would always ask for more and nothing you would do or give them would ever be enough . Increasing one's passive skill points once they achieved their cap sounds nice enough to me and that could and would be a good way to implement a roll over system . One that doesn't give too much ( overly spoiled ) and still require one to work for what would be earned . Thirty to fifty percent on the passive points sounds reasonable . That way one with a booster wont be able to manipulate the system unless they have an Omega and then actually it's fair play and that might drum up Omega sales as well . Like I have said before I like how you do your Omega sales because that item should be limited and rare . That increases it's potency and makes it worth something . Overall sales should be treated the same . Not every month a 30 ,40 and 50 percent sale . That makes your establishment look money hungry and promotes a pay to win attitude . " Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .

emtbraincase Falconpunch Hatesurfers 30	Posted - 2013.11.19 02:39:00 - [171] - Quote But as it stands, a newer player can never catch an established player. This would mean they could. Nothing more.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2013.11.19 03:00:00 - [172] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: But as it stands, a newer player can never catch an established player. This would mean they could. Nothing more. Newer players can catch up to established players because skill levels are capped at five and there are only a finite number of skills. You're essentially saying that newer players will never get level five in their skills. That's total cr@p. Quit catering to the lazy and the spoiled. Keeping it fair means you don't cheapen the efforts of the players who earned what they have by giving newer, and slower, players the same thing for less effort. Let's say you work for five years getting two percent raises every six months. Then some new guy comes in and tries to convince the boss to give him five percent raises every three months till he catches up with your pay rate because he feels it's unfair that you make more than he does even though you've been doing the job longer. I doubt you'd support the new guy's case. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 98	Posted - 2013.11.19 03:05:00 - [173] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: But as it stands, a newer player can never catch an established player. This would mean they could. Nothing more. And they should be able to ???? Some of these players have been playing since the beginning and how fair would that be if someone who just started playing could catch up to them , giving none of the effort and none of the time spent . That's just wrong and counterproductive . I want to flash proto too but that should require WORK and EFFORT and not a laid back approach of doing less but feeding off of some nipple on some teat like a baby . This game should grow up and it's players should be and do the same . No knock against teenagers and kids ( I was once one myself and they hate limitations ) but I don't need or want this collective to adopt that type of behavior . THEY shouldn't want that themselves . This world has become a place where people feel privileged and feel like they should reap the fruits of someone else's work and that needs to change and that seriously is the wrong type of behavior and sets the wrong example and lays the wrong foundation . If that's what you want CCP then you can have fun with that and count me out . I have raised some and still are raising other of my children . Don't need anymore , especially ones that I didn't make . " Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 134	Posted - 2013.11.19 03:27:00 - [174] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: But as it stands, a newer player can never catch an established player. This would mean they could. Nothing more. Ok, this keeps coming up but is flat out wrong. It shows a lack in understanding of how the skillpoint system works. I don't blame you (its a very common belief), but i need to point out what many seem to be missing. A new player will never catch up to an veteran player in terms of total skillpoints, however this is NOT a problem. Quote: this is NOT a problem You have to realize that total skillpoints is not a direct metric of player power. Its more a metric of how many different things can i do. To compete at the same level as a veteran player, all a new player needs is ONE fit at proto level. Because this only requires a finite number of skillpoints, its achievable by any player after some fixed amount of time. Once a player reaches that point, their 'power' stops increasing. Their AR is maxed, they can't get any better modules, there is simply no progression left to be had in that fit. At this moment, they have 'caught up' to the veteran player. From this moment on, they will start doing the same thing the veteran does, and start progressing laterally, getting a wider range of fits or weapons, but becoming no stronger. That lateral progression is such a strong point to the skillpoint system. It allows for a skill tree that can last for years, while ensuring that new players are not stomped into the ground by 5000 hitpoint walking death machines that a linear system would force. So bottom line, we do not need to build any system to try and catch up a new player in terms of total SP. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
emtbraincase Falconpunch Hatesurfers 30	Posted - 2013.11.19 06:36:00 - [175] - Quote I was just assuming that new equipment, suits, and weapons will be coming out which will require SP as well. Not just in 1.7, but further on. In most games I would agree, but the fact that they appear to be expanding skill trees regularly (if not often, SoonGäó) and hopefully not giving more respecs, makes me think it could cause people to quit after only a short while since it can seem insurmountable. They have no real reason to feel they can be anything but some random 25 mil SP character k/d pad (K/d means nothing btw ) and who wants to do that for 3-4 months to get anywhere close to being able to hold their own. Not to mention the noob has no idea the true implications of his purchases early on. If they fail character creation early they can just build another. If they get a good way in and their "fix" build doesn't "work" then they are gone before anyone can even show them how things work. I also don't think it should be sped up, and realize that there are limited slots so SP isn't that important overall. However, in the beginning it completely does matter. New to the game mechanics, new to the hit detection, new to the maps, new to the equipment/mods/gear, and running mostly militia for too long can ruin the early experience (dying isn't fun). I understand that is also a mark of New Eden, Learn or Leave, but people need time to learn it. if the matchmaking isn't fixed, I don't see anyone playing more than 1-2 pub matches of protostomping to just turn off the game and uninstall it. Just give the noob something more to buffer them from the greater New Eden longer. They need to face proto, but their random lobby will likely get slaughtered. I hope on that I am wrong, but I think that it could happen often enough to matter. Out of the 15-20 people I got to start playing Dust, only 3 still play and it was because they came in awhile after "rollout", as well as a couple times in between, and were sick of full proto squads raping us and a team of several 1-3 man squads with a few lone blueberries for flavor. So it does happen. Fix matchmaking, or make some concessions to keep more people from the start. Again, I hope I am wrong.
emtbraincase Falconpunch Hatesurfers 30	Posted - 2013.11.19 06:51:00 - [176] - Quote Even if it's just lifting the cap until they hit at least 2 mil SP, while keeping everything else the same, would be a start.
Skullmizer Vulcansu fox assualt legion 0	Posted - 2013.11.19 08:55:00 - [177] - Quote Sirpidey Adtur wrote: A few options that haven't been mentioned. I'd like to mention that I have personally never reached cap, and before I can make an informed decision about what is actually best for the playerbase, I'd need to see statistics on how many people actually REACH cap in a week. More important than fixing the cap though, is removing worthless skills, and empty levels. I am a new player, and I reached the cap in one day. I played 16 hours straight, and was frustrated that I could not continue. All my equipment is still sup-par, and I can hardly compete with anyone. It is discouraging. A roll-over system sounds unhelpful to me. I don't know why there is a cap. It's certainly too tight, though.
Mia Romani Nexus Marines 49	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:14:00 - [178] - Quote I still think we should just jump over to a "daily quest" system. Pick up the mission, go win 3 matches, get paid with a lump-sump "active SP" Doesn't matter how long each match was, or how much WP farmed, just that you participated in 3 victories. Interstellar Crossroads
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 379	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:57:00 - [179] - Quote Skullmizer Vulcansu wrote: Sirpidey Adtur wrote: A few options that haven't been mentioned. I'd like to mention that I have personally never reached cap, and before I can make an informed decision about what is actually best for the playerbase, I'd need to see statistics on how many people actually REACH cap in a week. More important than fixing the cap though, is removing worthless skills, and empty levels. I am a new player, and I reached the cap in one day. I played 16 hours straight, and was frustrated that I could not continue. All my equipment is still sup-par, and I can hardly compete with anyone. It is discouraging. A roll-over system sounds unhelpful to me. I don't know why there is a cap. It's certainly too tight, though. The cap is there because the game is about an investment of time and effort and how it will affect the Eve/Dust universe, not the CoD unlock everything in a week KDR ***** ideology. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2132	Posted - 2013.11.20 03:58:00 - [180] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: The cap is there because the game is about an investment of time and effort and how it will affect the Eve/Dust universe, not the CoD unlock everything in a week KDR ***** ideology. Actually no. The cap is here because progression is literally the only content CCP has to offer us right now. Without a cap, people will run out of 'stuff to do' after a few months and then retention will suffer. With actual content, progression becomes secondary and a cap is no longer needed.

dullrust Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 27	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:02:00 - [181] - Quote I would suggest a roll over for those that can't hit cap. Next take the average sp to fully max out 1 build. That amount will become a point. If your sp is less (by that amount) than someone you either kill or assist in killing you recive 2x the WP. If that player is 2x higher then It's 3x and so on up the line. On top of this the extra 50 or more (in this case a kill) does not count towards the cap. Also the extra sp earned this way continues after the cap. For example I kill bob. Bob has 3x (whatever the point is) higher total sp than me. I would get 150 WP. Now I kill Susie she is just below me in sp. I get the usual 50 WP. Now I'm also past cap and have hit 1000 WP not including bob or Susie. So my total sp is 1100. On a side note no the wp should not count for after battle rankings. I'm just using it because you get 1sp for each wp. HAVE A NICE DAY!
Skullmizer Vulcansu fox assualt legion 0	Posted - 2013.11.20 07:46:00 - [182] - Quote I don't think that experience rollover is bad, but I don't think that it is a helpful at all for shrinking the gap between new and old players, which was the point. I don't know why it is a popular suggestion to do that.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 380	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:02:00 - [183] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: The cap is there because the game is about an investment of time and effort and how it will affect the Eve/Dust universe, not the CoD unlock everything in a week KDR ***** ideology. Actually no. The cap is here because progression is literally the only content CCP has to offer us right now. Without a cap, people will run out of 'stuff to do' after a few months and then retention will suffer. With actual content, progression becomes secondary and a cap is no longer needed. Alright then Mister CPM, if I'm wrong, explain how CCP intends to keep to the plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended skills, should take about six years. If there is no cap, then there will be people who do nothing but live on Dust maxing out their characters in about six months instead. As for running out of stuff to do, as you put it, we ran out of "stuff to do" after we played each of the contract types for the first time. I'm still here because it's still fun and I have made friends that I enjoy teaming with. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 524	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:36:00 - [184] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Nova Knife wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: The cap is there because the game is about an investment of time and effort and how it will affect the Eve/Dust universe, not the CoD unlock everything in a week KDR *** ideology. Actually no. The cap is here because progression is literally the only content CCP has to offer us right now. Without a cap, people will run out of 'stuff to do' after a few months and then retention will suffer. With actual content, progression becomes secondary and a cap is no longer needed. Alright then Mister CPM, if I'm wrong, explain how CCP intends to keep to the plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended skills, should take about six years. If there is no cap, then there will be people who do nothing but live on Dust maxing out their characters in about six months instead. As for running out of stuff to do, as you put it, we ran out of "stuff to do" after we played each of the contract types for the first time. I'm still here because it's still fun and I have made friends that I enjoy teaming with. Part of building a game like Dust is continuation of the release new stuff. November 19, 2013 marked the release of several new items in Eve Online. The Mobile Tractor Unit for Salvagers that pulls wrecks to the module and loots them into a common container to be picked up after salvaging a site or complex. The SOE frigates and cruisers which happen to be the only T1 hulls in game that are able to use Covert Ops Cloaking devices as well as Covert Ops (may just be the regular type) Cynosural Field Generators. There are also several more items that have been added for lots of cool things to do and new ways to exploit other players. There are lots of ways to increase the number of skills needed to play the game, all it takes is adding a new module needing X new skill to use. For a new weapon we need new skills for a new dropsuit we need a new skill for a new vehicle type we need a new skill. This concept of a game as a service involves constant development, constant testing and an ever changing gameplay surface that will be (should-be) constantly filled with fresh game play styles and new ways to have fun and destroy other players and their assets as well as cheat them, ruin them and get rich or die trying! Welcome to New Eden. One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!**
Dbukalski1 Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:50:00 - [185] - Quote a topic i started about new player experience https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1514164#post1514164 as for what has already been discussed. Increasing the SP cap isnt going to change much, Ill still sit in the MCC and gather 5sp/sec of in game time. For me to play the game and get wrecked by proto players over and over again I need to see a big increase in WP gained in battle. Currently I struggle to get 700WP which is a drop in the bucket compared to the 400k I get per week through passives/logging on and being in battle. As is I have no interest in joining battle as outlined in my topic. Not for 700wp. If on the other hand players below a certain SP level were given a big boost to their WP that could change. Its very difficult to kill anyone as a new player. Im talking like 200wp for a kill and 100 for hacking turrets and such. Otherwise the aggravation of battle is too high compared to the reward.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 380	Posted - 2013.11.21 02:41:00 - [186] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Nova Knife wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: The cap is there because the game is about an investment of time and effort and how it will affect the Eve/Dust universe, not the CoD unlock everything in a week KDR *** ideology. Actually no. The cap is here because progression is literally the only content CCP has to offer us right now. Without a cap, people will run out of 'stuff to do' after a few months and then retention will suffer. With actual content, progression becomes secondary and a cap is no longer needed. Alright then Mister CPM, if I'm wrong, explain how CCP intends to keep to the plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended skills, should take about six years. If there is no cap, then there will be people who do nothing but live on Dust maxing out their characters in about six months instead. As for running out of stuff to do, as you put it, we ran out of "stuff to do" after we played each of the contract types for the first time. I'm still here because it's still fun and I have made friends that I enjoy teaming with. Part of building a game like Dust is continuation of the release new stuff. November 19, 2013 marked the release of several new items in Eve Online. The Mobile Tractor Unit for Salvagers that pulls wrecks to the module and loots them into a common container to be picked up after salvaging a site or complex. The SOE frigates and cruisers which happen to be the only T1 hulls in game that are able to use Covert Ops Cloaking devices as well as Covert Ops (may just be the regular type) Cynosural Field Generators. There are also several more items that have been added for lots of cool things to do and new ways to exploit other players. There are lots of ways to increase the number of skills needed to play the game, all it takes is adding a new module needing X new skill to use. For a new weapon we need new skills for a new dropsuit we need a new skill for a new vehicle type we need a new skill. This concept of a game as a service involves constant development, constant testing and an ever changing gameplay surface that will be (should-be) constantly filled with fresh game play styles and new ways to have fun and destroy other players and their assets as well as cheat them, ruin them and get rich or die trying! Welcome to New Eden. That's all well and good and I understand that... New content is always good and I won't argue with you about that. But this isn't about content. It has still not been explained as to how CCP could keep to their plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended** skills, should take about six years. Yes, Eve gets a few new skills over ten years, but not many Most new modules/ships use already existing skills. If we go by a "no SP cap" model that many people are clamoring for, Dust will have to have thousands of skills to support such a system with an intended six year plan to fully master all skills. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 576	Posted - 2013.11.21 03:03:00 - [187] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Nova Knife wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: The cap is there because the game is about an investment of time and effort and how it will affect the Eve/Dust universe, not the CoD unlock everything in a week KDR *** ideology. Actually no. The cap is here because progression is literally the only content CCP has to offer us right now. Without a cap, people will run out of 'stuff to do' after a few months and then retention will suffer. With actual content, progression becomes secondary and a cap is no longer needed. Alright then Mister CPM, if I'm wrong, explain how CCP intends to keep to the plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended skills, should take about six years. If there is no cap, then there will be people who do nothing but live on Dust maxing out their characters in about six months instead. As for running out of stuff to do, as you put it, we ran out of "stuff to do" after we played each of the contract types for the first time. I'm still here because it's still fun and I have made friends that I enjoy teaming with. Part of building a game like Dust is continuation of the release new stuff. November 19, 2013 marked the release of several new items in Eve Online. The Mobile Tractor Unit for Salvagers that pulls wrecks to the module and loots them into a common container to be picked up after salvaging a site or complex. The SOE frigates and cruisers which happen to be the only T1 hulls in game that are able to use Covert Ops Cloaking devices as well as Covert Ops (may just be the regular type) Cynosural Field Generators. There are also several more items that have been added for lots of cool things to do and new ways to exploit other players. There are lots of ways to increase the number of skills needed to play the game, all it takes is adding a new module needing X new skill to use. For a new weapon we need new skills for a new dropsuit we need a new skill for a new vehicle type we need a new skill. This concept of a game as a service involves constant development, constant testing and an ever changing gameplay surface that will be (should-be) constantly filled with fresh game play styles and new ways to have fun and destroy other players and their assets as well as cheat them, ruin them and get rich or die trying! Welcome to New Eden. That's all well and good and I understand that... New content is always good and I won't argue with you about that. But this isn't about content. It has still not been explained as to how CCP could keep to their plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended** skills, should take about six years. Yes, Eve gets a few new skills over ten years, but not many Most new modules/ships use already existing skills. If we go by a "no SP cap" model that many people are clamoring for, Dust will have to have thousands of skills to support such a system with an intended six year plan to fully master all skills. I think you're misunderstanding the six (I thought they said seven) year plan. They don't want anyone to ever max out. They picked six years because it's beyond our ability to reach for a long time. I fully expect more SP sinks to come over the years so that it's never mathematically possible to have it all. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 576	Posted - 2013.11.21 03:11:00 - [188] - Quote Dbukalski1 wrote: a topic i started about new player experience https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1514164#post1514164 as for what has already been discussed. Increasing the SP cap isnt going to change much, Ill still sit in the MCC and gather 5sp/sec of in game time. For me to play the game and get wrecked by proto players over and over again I need to see a big increase in WP gained in battle. Currently I struggle to get 700WP which is a drop in the bucket compared to the 400k I get per week through passives/logging on and being in battle. As is I have no interest in joining battle as outlined in my topic. Not for 700wp. If on the other hand players below a certain SP level were given a big boost to their WP that could change. Its very difficult to kill anyone as a new player. Im talking like 200wp for a kill and 100 for hacking turrets and such. Otherwise the aggravation of battle is too high compared to the reward. Improved matchmaking and an optional second tier academy up to 2-5 million SP is a better solution than catering to players who are impatient/entitled and want to AFK their SP. CCP also needs to fix AFKing (seriously, just check to see if the output from the controllers are constant, how hard is that?). Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Hank Rust Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 4	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:55:00 - [189] - Quote I think if you just got rid of the cap completely and allowed players to max out in about a year of hardcore grinding. The end game could be more about tactics, stratagy, and teamwork, rather than gear. This could bring in a surge of players, but probably limit the lifetime of the game. But at the slow pace new content in being introduced, it seems this might be a better solution.
Severus Smith Caldari State 430	Posted - 2013.11.21 21:40:00 - [190] - Quote Skihids wrote: All this talk of detail is bassackwards. Before we design a new system we should first specify what the goals are. We can then determine if any of the goals are incompatable and their relative ranking. Then we can judge the merits of each proposal by how well it accomplishes the goals. Starting with the details obscures several different goals. So what are the goals? Here's my impression: 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream The above is probably the most important post in here. These are the goals for the system. I have an idea that I think hits all of these. Hear me out. Players currently earn Passive SP every second at (wrong, but for sake of simplicity lets say) 1 SP per second. If they have a Passive Booster they then earn 50% more Passive SP making their rate 1.5 SP per second. This ticks upwards throughout the day and we all like it. Expand that. Create a new pool named "Unclaimed Active SP" and have it gain SP at a rate of 1 SP per second. If the player has an Active Booster then this rate is increased by 50% to 1.5 SP per second. This is your cap. No more X max SP per day or Y max SP per week. If you finish a match and deplete this pool then by the time you finish your next 15 minute match it'll have ticked slowly back up to 900 SP (1350 if you're boosted). Leave for an hour and come back and now your "Unclaimed SP" is at 3600. No more hitting a cap and getting zero rewards for the rest of your matches. Expand that further. Add a new Booster called an Active Multiplier. It doesn't increase your "Unclaimed SP" rate it instead multiplies the SP you make at the end of the match. So if you have 40,000 "Unclaimed" SP and a x10 Multiplier on then at the end of the match your usual 2K SP reward becomes 20K. This allows people who leave for awhile to come back and pay to quickly empty their "Unclaimed SP" pool - thus reducing the grind. This system hits all of the above goals. 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them You never lose Active SP as it is always added to your "Unclaimed SP" pool every second. To reduce the grind you can purchase "Multiplier" Boosters to claim the SP from your "Unclaimed" pool faster. 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing You will always get SP for playing a match since your "Unclaimed" pool is always increasing. So if you deplete your "Unclaimed" pool then start another match, in the 10 minutes it takes you to finish your pool will have increased to 600 SP (900 boosted) thus netting you 600 SP at the end of your match. 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness This system doesn't directly help new players. But if all new players started with an "Unclaimed" pool of 5 million SP and a 10 day x10 Booster then they'd catch up pretty quick. (Different discussion but the system facilitates the goal) 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available This system paces player SP accrual. A player still has a cap, it is just increasing every second at a small rate rather than limiting them to X amount a week. 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream All players would want to purchase Boosters as they increase the total SP they could make by 50%. More casual players would be incentivized to purchase Multipliers as it allows them to quickly empty their "Unclaimed" pool without having to play hundreds of matches. TL/DR: Please read it all, thank you very much.

Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 380	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:30:00 - [191] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Draco Cerberus wrote: Part of building a game like Dust is continuation of the release new stuff. November 19, 2013 marked the release of several new items in Eve Online. The Mobile Tractor Unit for Salvagers that pulls wrecks to the module and loots them into a common container to be picked up after salvaging a site or complex. The SOE frigates and cruisers which happen to be the only T1 hulls in game that are able to use Covert Ops Cloaking devices as well as Covert Ops (may just be the regular type) Cynosural Field Generators. There are also several more items that have been added for lots of cool things to do and new ways to exploit other players. There are lots of ways to increase the number of skills needed to play the game, all it takes is adding a new module needing X new skill to use. For a new weapon we need new skills for a new dropsuit we need a new skill for a new vehicle type we need a new skill. This concept of a game as a service involves constant development, constant testing and an ever changing gameplay surface that will be (should-be) constantly filled with fresh game play styles and new ways to have fun and destroy other players and their assets as well as cheat them, ruin them and get rich or die trying! Welcome to New Eden. That's all well and good and I understand that... New content is always good and I won't argue with you about that. But this isn't about content. It has still not been explained as to how CCP could keep to their plan that maxing out a character, once we have all the intended skills, should take about six years. Yes, Eve gets a few new skills over ten years, but not many Most new modules/ships use already existing skills. If we go by a "no SP cap" model that many people are clamoring for, Dust will have to have thousands of skills to support such a system with an intended six year plan to fully master all skills. I think you're misunderstanding the six (I thought they said seven) year plan. They don't want anyone to ever max out. They picked six years because it's beyond our ability to reach for a long time. I fully expect more SP sinks to come over the years so that it's never mathematically possible to have it all. Ok. Seven year plan then, but that would still be ruined by the current SP system if it didn't have a cap. I still believe a Eve style queue system would be the most beneficial, or completely eliminate active SP gains and adjust passive gains to enable the skill progression speed CCP intends. For those that still want more SP faster, do what other players do and buy a booster. A "catch up" system is for slow, entitled, and/or lazy players who don't want to put the time and effort in to play and should never exist. And before anyone calls me a no-lifer booster buyer, I bought a 24 hour booster once in closed beta, My average weekly playtime is less than ten hours, and I've only ever hit the cap once in my entire time of playing. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 380	Posted - 2013.11.22 04:32:00 - [192] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: Skihids wrote: All this talk of detail is bassackwards. Before we design a new system we should first specify what the goals are. We can then determine if any of the goals are incompatable and their relative ranking. Then we can judge the merits of each proposal by how well it accomplishes the goals. Starting with the details obscures several different goals. So what are the goals? Here's my impression: 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream The above is probably the most important post in here. These are the goals for the system. I have an idea that I think hits all of these. Hear me out. Players currently earn Passive SP every second at (wrong, but for sake of simplicity lets say) 1 SP per second. If they have a Passive Booster they then earn 50% more Passive SP making their rate 1.5 SP per second. This ticks upwards throughout the day and we all like it. Expand that. Create a new pool named "Unclaimed Active SP" and have it gain SP at a rate of 1 SP per second. If the player has an Active Booster then this rate is increased by 50% to 1.5 SP per second. This is your cap. No more X max SP per day or Y max SP per week. If you finish a match and deplete this pool then by the time you finish your next 15 minute match it'll have ticked slowly back up to 900 SP (1350 if you're boosted). Leave for an hour and come back and now your "Unclaimed SP" is at 3600. No more hitting a cap and getting zero rewards for the rest of your matches. Expand that further. Add a new Booster called an Active Multiplier. It doesn't increase your "Unclaimed SP" rate it instead multiplies the SP you make at the end of the match. So if you have 40,000 "Unclaimed" SP and a x10 Multiplier on then at the end of the match your usual 2K SP reward becomes 20K. This allows people who leave for awhile to come back and pay to quickly empty their "Unclaimed SP" pool - thus reducing the grind. This system hits all of the above goals. 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them You never lose Active SP as it is always added to your "Unclaimed SP" pool every second. To reduce the grind you can purchase "Multiplier" Boosters to claim the SP from your "Unclaimed" pool faster. 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing You will always get SP for playing a match since your "Unclaimed" pool is always increasing. So if you deplete your "Unclaimed" pool then start another match, in the 10 minutes it takes you to finish your pool will have increased to 600 SP (900 boosted) thus netting you 600 SP at the end of your match. 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness This system doesn't directly help new players. But if all new players started with an "Unclaimed" pool of 5 million SP and a 10 day x10 Booster then they'd catch up pretty quick. (Different discussion but the system facilitates the goal) 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available This system paces player SP accrual. A player still has a cap, it is just increasing every second at a small rate rather than limiting them to X amount a week. 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream All players would want to purchase Boosters as they increase the total SP they could make by 50%. More casual players would be incentivized to purchase Multipliers as it allows them to quickly empty their "Unclaimed" pool without having to play hundreds of matches. TL/DR: Please read it all, thank you very much. I'm good with everything but number three. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 205	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:25:00 - [193] - Quote If there's no cap at all then people who play all the time and have no lives would've probably maxed out everything a long time ago and that would widen the gap between new and old even further and create a new gap between casual and super hard core players. just do a rollover, find out where the maximum amount of SP would be if someone played and capped every day and set that as the cap for a while. Also if you want to close the gap between new and old players maybe give accelerated SP to the new guys up to a certain point. It lets them catch up but it also allows them to remake their character provided they spend their SP in poor areas, they won't feel like they invested too much time and work and it wouldn't be too much of a harm to start over. Might also make alternate characters viable, since there's no passive SP awarded to them.
Presager Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 1	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:27:00 - [194] - Quote Just remove the cap and thats it. There is average 21-25 million sp difference between vets and newbies. Vets wont get much overpowered - they are already there. On the other hand vets will have opportunity to be versatile and enjoy new suits and roles and newbies will have there chance to catch up.
Ronan Elsword Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 101	Posted - 2013.11.22 09:05:00 - [195] - Quote I like the SP bank idea, seeing that I barely play right now, whenever I start again I can play non stop until I have the stuff I want. For instance in 2 years + when it's on PS4 and I can spend my matches flying a plane around in circles. That was a joke Shepard. "Do not underestimate the power you have."
Severus Smith Caldari State 430	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:06:00 - [196] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Severus Smith wrote: Skihids wrote: All this talk of detail is bassackwards. Before we design a new system we should first specify what the goals are. We can then determine if any of the goals are incompatable and their relative ranking. Then we can judge the merits of each proposal by how well it accomplishes the goals. Starting with the details obscures several different goals. So what are the goals? Here's my impression: 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream The above is probably the most important post in here. These are the goals for the system. I have an idea that I think hits all of these. Hear me out. Players currently earn Passive SP every second at (wrong, but for sake of simplicity lets say) 1 SP per second. If they have a Passive Booster they then earn 50% more Passive SP making their rate 1.5 SP per second. This ticks upwards throughout the day and we all like it. Expand that. Create a new pool named "Unclaimed Active SP" and have it gain SP at a rate of 1 SP per second. If the player has an Active Booster then this rate is increased by 50% to 1.5 SP per second. This is your cap. No more X max SP per day or Y max SP per week. If you finish a match and deplete this pool then by the time you finish your next 15 minute match it'll have ticked slowly back up to 900 SP (1350 if you're boosted). Leave for an hour and come back and now your "Unclaimed SP" is at 3600. No more hitting a cap and getting zero rewards for the rest of your matches. Expand that further. Add a new Booster called an Active Multiplier. It doesn't increase your "Unclaimed SP" rate it instead multiplies the SP you make at the end of the match. So if you have 40,000 "Unclaimed" SP and a x10 Multiplier on then at the end of the match your usual 2K SP reward becomes 20K. This allows people who leave for awhile to come back and pay to quickly empty their "Unclaimed SP" pool - thus reducing the grind. This system hits all of the above goals. 1) Remove the pressure to grind the points or lose them You never lose Active SP as it is always added to your "Unclaimed SP" pool every second. To reduce the grind you can purchase "Multiplier" Boosters to claim the SP from your "Unclaimed" pool faster. 2) Remove the disincentive to continue playing You will always get SP for playing a match since your "Unclaimed" pool is always increasing. So if you deplete your "Unclaimed" pool then start another match, in the 10 minutes it takes you to finish your pool will have increased to 600 SP (900 boosted) thus netting you 600 SP at the end of your match. 3) Allow new players to quickly attain competativeness This system doesn't directly help new players. But if all new players started with an "Unclaimed" pool of 5 million SP and a 10 day x10 Booster then they'd catch up pretty quick. (Different discussion but the system facilitates the goal) 4) Pace SP accrual to prevent some players from gaining every skill available This system paces player SP accrual. A player still has a cap, it is just increasing every second at a small rate rather than limiting them to X amount a week. 5) Encourage paid SP boosting as a revenue stream All players would want to purchase Boosters as they increase the total SP they could make by 50%. More casual players would be incentivized to purchase Multipliers as it allows them to quickly empty their "Unclaimed" pool without having to play hundreds of matches. TL/DR: Please read it all, thank you very much. I'm good with everything but number three. Yeah, the 5 mil + 10x booster was meant more as sarcasm (impossible to capture in text, sorry). Either way, new players gaining competitiveness can be facilitated with the system. That was my point.
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 888	Posted - 2013.11.26 23:42:00 - [197] - Quote I have to say that I think a simple SP rollover is actually a poor solution since it only solves a single issue: that of 'use it or lose it' to a rigid weekly tempo. You'll still reach a point in the week when you've hit the cap and it's pointless to play any longer. Instead, a constantly regenerating pool of SP (see idea below) would remove the concept of a 'weekly reset day' and give players the benefit of being active as much as they like - there will always be a more SP to earn! Absolute Idiom II wrote: I'd like to link to my suggestion for a large, constantly regenerating pool of SP: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=462915#post462915 Quote: The Alternative It's simple really. 1) Have an active SP reward pool which is the size of a 4x week's of SP, which with the current limits would be 761,600 SP. 2) Active SP rewards deplete this pool, as they do now. 3) Each tick of 30 minutes 566 SP are added back into the SP reward pool. 4) The pool never goes above the maximum size of 761,600 SP 5) Once empty, no rewards (or a nominal reward) is given). The Benefits You get to combine the pros of the weekly AND the daily cap! Pros: A) Whether you play weekly or daily, you have the opportunity to achieve the same number of active SP rewards from your plays. -- You can spread your 10 hours per week over the entire week, playing each day. Or you can have a marathon weekend and do it all in one go! B) No matter how much you have played, you will always have some more SP that you can earn the next day. A full day's worth of SP in fact. -- Even if you've earned an entire week's worth of active SP reward in the previous 2 days, you don't have to wait for a weekly reset day before it is worth playing some more C) No waiting for a reset at down time, just wait 30 minutes! D) It doesn't matter what the SP pool size is, the SP pool recovery rate is what sets how fast the maximum speed of SP accrual is. The SP pool could be set to a month's worth; the only affect would be how far in front players could be when comparing a full pool to an empty pool. Active boosters simply increase the rate at which the pool refills (and increases the max pool size). Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
Miokai Zahou Film Actors Guilds 58	Posted - 2013.11.27 00:51:00 - [198] - Quote Why not implement a SP system where the new player has an uncapped limit until they hit 3 million instead of 5? You can specializes into a few things already with that amount. As for the roll over SP system I'm all for it as long as there is left over SP in pool but should keep the cap limit on to encourage the purchase of a new remodeled Active Booster system. Currently the way we all know about the active booster is that it only gives the player X1.2 SP per 1 SP achieved at the end of the round which in turn eats away weekly SP pool until we run out or 'capped' ourselves until the next reset. What I propose is that the remodeled active boosters do what they do as per normal but the only difference is that it overrides the cap limit (once achieved) and continues to apply the X1.2sp per 1sp bonus at the end of the round. In this way people will have reason to purchase aurum to have there 'uncapped' way while the free to play model that ccp has taken up benefits the company. In summary new players get the uncapped skill points as desired (capped at 3 million), the roll system allows people who are on holiday or play very little to still catch up and for the hardcore players to keep grinding SP at maximum by buying the remodeled active booster system. CCP even makes a profit over this and people will have a genuine appeal to actually buying aurum ever since BPOs where removed from the market.
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 262	Posted - 2013.11.27 04:32:00 - [199] - Quote Presager wrote: Just remove the cap and thats it. There is average 21-25 million sp difference between vets and newbies. Vets wont get much overpowered - they are already there. On the other hand vets will have opportunity to be versatile and enjoy new suits and roles and newbies will have there chance to catch up. Dear Sir, Your solution is too simple and straightforward and does not belong in a thread involving convoluted theory crafting over a thing that should not exist in this game.
Lanius Pulvis Bojo's School of the Trades 72	Posted - 2013.11.27 05:46:00 - [200] - Quote I concurr with what others have posted, have an additional "pool" of SP accruing at the same rate as passive, with no limit on the pool amount. After you've capped for the week, you start pulling from the bonus pool. This gives anyone the chance to use a long weekend, for example, to grind the SP they normally don't have time for. It would also still keep people in check who have the time to play all they want. Not new, just new to you.

bear90211 Nyain San Renegade Alliance 62	Posted - 2013.11.27 06:12:00 - [201] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: This morning we had a meeting with CCP, and during this meeting we were essentially given some homework. One of the things we railed pretty hard on was an emphatic urging that the old promise of a rollover system was sorely needed, The cap puts us in a bad spot, and we wanted people to have a way to rip down the barriers of segregation the cap creates between new and old players. So, the purpose of this thread is to collect player thoughts and proposals about how to rework the system. What is the best way to introduce a "catch up" mechanic? SP Rollover, No cap until X SP, No cap at all? Something else? The ball is in our court as players to propose to CCP the best way to move forward with this, so the CPM is coming to you guys in order to decide our play. If linking another thread : Please summarize (Or quote the OP) to allow for reasonable discussion and/or easy linking to CCP in future to say "In X post Y player said Z, and people liked/disliked it" PLEASE READ. rollover SP... so add the SP cap from last week to the cap it just went over (for USA its on a wensday) so for an example, if you used no SP in a week it should be applied to the next week, so \|190.400 + 190.400 = 380.800 passive SP, I would raise the cap to 500.000 for a more easy estimate, and I would make it so when you do cap, you earn 1 SP per WP to obtain the maximum ammount, andit will be VARY nice to be able to get the 3000 SP your earned in a match instead of getting 1000 SP for your work, and I would make it so 1 WP is worth 2 SP as it will also keep players and reduce the "grind" for SP to get stuff, its not too much a change, and i think people will like this, and it will only reduce the time CCP expected people to fill out the entire skill tree by maybe 2 and a half years, and with the new tank skills, it will only be say 1 anda hald years less than their 7.0 year estimate to fill it out. Heavies are still squishy to my AR, just 5 rounds into them extra ;D hmm, I want taco's...
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 888	Posted - 2013.11.27 08:53:00 - [202] - Quote ^^Absolutely not. SP Rollover is a very poor solution. A constantly regenerating pool of SP would be a much better solution. Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
Saoa Scum Judge Mercenaries 20	Posted - 2013.11.27 11:25:00 - [203] - Quote A roll over system would be best i think On a sidenote: for me who dont have as much time to play as i would like i would much much rather have a similar sp system as in eve or at least make it an option... Lets say i pay a "subscription" in form of a booster would convert my active sp (that i can make in a week) into passive gain instead, that way i can still keep up. That way i wouldnt feel a need to grind, grind, grind, and grind some more and just play for the fun of it.. Pretty pleeease
gbh08 State Patriots 199	Posted - 2013.11.27 12:43:00 - [204] - Quote I'd just remove the cap, It should be the players choice if they care to grind away or not If we do have to have a cap though, then sp rollover should come as standard, so again, players can choose when they want to play, instead of feeling like they have to cap each week, which makes it feel like a chore sometimes However im failing to see how sp rollover helps a new player, unless thery make a account and let it sit for a couple of months, i just think all the time we do have a cap, then sp rollover should implemented Regarding new players, and if we do have to keep the sp cap, then they should just get to grind to 3 mil sp without a cap, 3 mil is more than enough to hold your own, get kills, maintain a kdr
The Shadow Prince Harimau Malaya. 10	Posted - 2013.11.28 02:45:00 - [205] - Quote 1. SP roller over. I started in June it would be nice if i can earn the SP which i miss out on before i started playing the game. This may actually help sell boosters imo. 2. After Capping SP earned should equal wp earned in battle. OR : Remove Cap completely and have SP earned equal to WP earned. This also fixes AFK issue as if no wp is earned no SP will be earned. People with boosters still get the extra 50% so i dont think it would hurt booster sales.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 381	Posted - 2013.11.28 20:42:00 - [206] - Quote The Shadow Prince wrote: 1. SP roller over. I started in June it would be nice if i can earn the SP which i miss out on before i started playing the game. This may actually help sell boosters imo. 2. After Capping SP earned should equal wp earned in battle. OR : Remove Cap completely and have SP earned equal to WP earned. This also fixes AFK issue as if no wp is earned no SP will be earned. People with boosters still get the extra 50% so i dont think it would hurt booster sales. Do you also think you should be given more food because of all the food you missed out on in the last three point six billion years? The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Veka Kari NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 21	Posted - 2013.12.29 05:44:00 - [207] - Quote This will be a two pronged approach because they are mutually exclusive: 1) Remove the SP Cap, and give a bonus to SP gain depending on SP level. Active boosters give the following SP: Battle SP + (Battle SP * Active booster) + (Battle SP * SP Level boost) Examples of #1: Academy: 0 - 2 million SP (50% SP gain) -- (equal to a booster, and given a chance to figure out and catch up to the next level quickly and easily. ) Boot Camp: 2 million - 8 million SP (30% SP gain) Tour of Duty: 8 million - 14 million SP (10% SP gain) Planetary War: 14 million + (0% SP gain) 2) Implement a better matchmaking system (in public matches) that pair players with similar SP levels. Squads should also get their own class of "mixed SP" matches similar to public matches now. This way the game remains Player skill based instead of Skill Point based. Examples of #2: Academy: 0 - 2 million SP -- (Already exists, but really should be SP based instead of WP based.) Boot Camp: 2 million - 8 million SP -- (A safe zone giving you an opportunity to turn back where you can so you do not choose a tree/class/strategy that you will regret much later in the game and whine about respecs every 3 months) Tour of Duty: 8 million - 14 million SP -- (Beginner prototype level designed to get you ready for the big leagues. Where there is literally no holds barred combat.) Planetary War: 14 million + -- (by this time you have skilled logi's, Assaults that are decked out, Heavies with well adjusted suits, vehicle pilots who know what they are doing. Oh yes, and scouts who know what stealth is.) Mixed Combat: Squad based combat. You can only enter this mode/arena if you are squaded with a player who is at a different SP level than you. I am actually interested in what you think about this solution, as it will probably get players to "vet" level quickly without burning them out by having to grind so much and still be left in the DUST514. [lol XD] MUST READ (All Suits): The Logi Code. You depend on it.


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