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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2102	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:52:00 - [1] - Quote This morning we had a meeting with CCP, and during this meeting we were essentially given some homework. One of the things we railed pretty hard on was an emphatic urging that the old promise of a rollover system was sorely needed, The cap puts us in a bad spot, and we wanted people to have a way to rip down the barriers of segregation the cap creates between new and old players. So, the purpose of this thread is to collect player thoughts and proposals about how to rework the system. What is the best way to introduce a "catch up" mechanic? SP Rollover, No cap until X SP, No cap at all? Something else? The ball is in our court as players to propose to CCP the best way to move forward with this, so the CPM is coming to you guys in order to decide our play. If linking another thread : Please summarize (Or quote the OP) to allow for reasonable discussion and/or easy linking to CCP in future to say "In X post Y player said Z, and people liked/disliked it"
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4971	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:53:00 - [2] - Quote SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Brush Master HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 971	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:54:00 - [3] - Quote coming soon...post in process... GÇá Havok Core - Closed Beta Corp - Accepting Applications Here GÇá CEO // [email protected]
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 662	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:56:00 - [4] - Quote SooTM !
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 496	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:02:00 - [5] - Quote No Cap. None, zilch, nada ever. Also acceptable, add up all the points for all the weeks someone could have capped but didn't and set the cap to that number of missed points plus a weekly total. *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*
Adelia Lafayette DUST University Ivy League 425	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:04:00 - [6] - Quote with the no skill levels beyond 5 system anyone can catch up to the older players by specializing as the older players hit the ceiling and expand horizontally until they get diabetes. However unlike eve this game does not have the game mechanics that allow player interaction to overcome sp gaps and the game boils down to do you know the best 16 people in game and are you one of them. This can only be fixed by implementing new game modes/expanded hardware/interacting instances, I don't believe the cap needs raised although eve did raise the starting sp and dust may not hurt from raising the starting sp as well. Though I would recommend if that were to happen to give everyone currently existing the raised amount as well. The more important thing however that I would like to see is turning the currently weekly cap into you gain 1/7th of the current active sp cap and you have 7 days until it expires. This would remove the sacred Wednesday cap reset into something that allows you to take a few days breather and then catch up. I wouldn't complain if the expiration date was up to 2 or 3 weeks. Sure this system could be gamed to allow people to take advantage of 1-3 day boosters to grind out the cap, not that they didn't anyway, but on the other side that is more money for ccp to develop the game to get pve in and I can take a vacation without worrying about the evil that is Wednesday downtime.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2102	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:04:00 - [7] - Quote Personally, I'm a strong supporter of the rollover system, but if given the choice I would much prefer no cap at all. While this may encourage some heavy farming by some, for the most part we shouldn't need to fear exploiting too much with the new system CCP Greyscale has tossed out that limits WP/time, which was the largest concern with having no cap. I feel that any cap (However large it may be) sends the message "After X point you should stop playing our game and do something else." which I feel is a pretty silly message to send to your loyal customers. As a gamer, I have absolutely hated the "You cannot pass GO until Z timer expires" prevalent in many F2P games. Further, limited progression implies that progression itself is the entire goal of the game (Which until we get some actual content, it kind of is) and I think that is incredibly wrong. SP shouldn't be the primary focus of the game. SP and progression should be something secondary that happens naturally as someone is enjoying the other content, in my opinion. While we enjoy a (sort of) soft cap rather than an abrupt stop to progression, that is almost worse in my opinion. With the soft cap players are still rewarded for grinding, but trying to eke out progression one match at a time can be nothing short of painful after one hits their cap. Even if players do not approve of removing the cap entirely, I think it is very important that however this system is revamped, a day 1 player should be able to catch up to someone who has been playing for months, if that new player wants to grind like a madman while the "vet" is only playing an hour or so a day.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 658	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote As one of these players never seem to cap out unless I have a few days off in a row, I favour the SP Rollover system, so I'm not penalised for having a full time job. But with some players having in excess of 32 million SP (and fair play to them for having ground that out) the SP gap between vets and new players needs to be considered also. Untill Scotty the AI gets enough players for him to keep the pro's from the new players we should give them a chance to catch up a bit. I'd suggest no skill cap for 90 days or till, as an example, 5m career SP for new players . That should enable them to spec up fairly well. Mercenary Clone of Dennie Fleetfoot CEO of DUST University
David Spd Caldari State 88	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:22:00 - [9] - Quote I would like to see a removal of the cap unti a cetain amount of SP is acquired, then put the rollover system in place. That way you can play a lot to expeience the game when you're new (or get an alt with more SP faster) and continue to be rewarded. People with more SP can still make use f what they earn but not as rapdly. I would also like to see a system that allows us to put earned SP into a "lock" so that we can't spend ituntil we reach a number we set. Too hard to sit on large amounts of SP for that big skill when I have others that tempt me so. Also a bit off-topic but didn't CCP say they would consider having passive SP on all characters? Would that be worth asking into? --> I'm a closed beta vet; I just don't post often <-- "Other people just complicate my life." ~Solid Snake
KA24DERT Pure Innocence. EoN. 256	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:23:00 - [10] - Quote Whenever you go to the whiteboard and come back with a complicated scheme from one of the most hated industries in the world, you need to re-think your strategy. The best solution to the SP cap is to remove it entirely. You earn what you earn, and that's it. Simple. As far as a catch-up mechanic... the game already has them built in: Boosters. Give new players 1 month's worth of active and passive boosters. That's enough training to get into a decent ADV suit. It can also lead to increased revenue after they use their last free booster and see the decline in SP gain.

Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention 1808	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. My friend Arkena beat me to the punch on this one, +1 to the above. 0.02 ISK Cross
xp3ll3d dust The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 99	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote Leave the cap. Just give us a roll over system or a global max SP cap, so that new players are able to keep grinding up to the current max, and people that are on holiday for 1-2 weeks are still able to "catch up" if they are that way inclined. With FW giving people the option of farming LP rather than SP, I don't see any weight to the argument of "people will stop playing if they hit the cap".
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 841	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:27:00 - [13] - Quote I like the idea of a bonus SP pool that grows at the same rate as passive SP, and is sped up by boosters. The pool will fill over time and never be reset so if you leave for 6 months you have 6 months worth of passive SP as well as a bonus SP pool worth 6 months of caps, though you still have to play to get it. This means it is continuous, no downtime reset. New players can start with 5 mil bonus SP to start so it will be awhile before they ever hit their cap. This will mean that those who play a lot will have a maximum amount of SP they can make and those who don't have the opportunity to catch up. It still requires the grind but no SP is wasted. This also prevents people from powering through two caps with a 3 day booster. Not to mention you can't waste any potential SP from an active booster either. A dev was talking about this in a previous post I don't have the time to find, it sounded like a great idea. It's great because I don't have to worry about capping while I'm busy at school and work, and doesn't limit me when I decide to play for long periods during break. IMO this is the best idea. CCP may want people playing, but as someone who took a break it's not a bad idea to make people feel like they can take a break for a couple of weeks without losing something. People will be more likely to come back if they don't leave burnt out. The Ellecon's come from a long line of Gallente. Tarn chose Peace. Tallen chose war. SoonGäó514
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4979	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:33:00 - [14] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SP rollover. It does have the problem of boosters being used to do things like super back to back grind sessions to cut down on the value of booster needed, but that tends to happen anyway. You could have SP trickle into the active pool much like passive SP over time, without a limit on it - when a booster is plugged in, keep the trickle the same but have an additional 'bonus' pool, for example. Also, no cap for newbies until they have a solid chunk of SP. I would also suggest an accelerated rate of SP gain for newbies. My friend Arkena beat me to the punch on this one, +1 to the above. 0.02 ISK Cross Oh my word, it's you! Welcome back! EDIT: Also, you can put your '0.02 isk - Cross' tag in your sig now. Check the settings bar at the top of the page. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Waruiko DUST G I A N T EoN. 138	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:53:00 - [15] - Quote SP roll over with active boosters being worth Xsp rather then X days Like if you were sitting on 10000 sp in your cap and you used a 20000 sp booster you could use 5000 now, 10000 next week, take the next week off and finish the week after with the last 5000 If blood and sweat don't teach them perhaps time will
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 342	Posted - 2013.11.13 19:58:00 - [16] - Quote I would be in favor of a diminishing returns scheme of active SP accrual. The idea is that game design sits down and says how many SPs they think their median active player should be earning for their content-strategy to work out long-term. Below this threshold SP accrual is quick with a high SP/WP and SP/matchtime ratio. The closer the gained SP of the last 7 days gets to the threshold the lower these ratios get, making SP accrual more time consuming. Beyond the threshold these ratios slowly approach zero, never becoming zero exactly, but decreasing returns the more the player exceeds what game-design originally intended. Here's an example: Consider you've been away from home for 7 days. The active SP you accrued during this time is zero. Not a worry, CCP recently released roll-over-SP for Dust. During your first games you earn 2 SP/second of matchtime and 5 SP for each WP you earn in the match. This pays out handsomely for the first couple of games. After a number of games, or perhaps the next day, you start to notice that SP accrual starts to slow down. At some point you're only getting 1 SP/second and 1 SP/WP. This is the ratio we currently have in the game. Nevertheless you're enjoying yourself with those black eagle suits and you keep playing more than the average player does. This is where you notice things getting progressively slower. At some point you'll only earn 0.5 SP/second of matchtime or even less, and even your WP only earn you 0.5 SP/WP. I could whip up some nice degressive curves if I was a game designer, but I'll leave this as homework for the guys at CCP. I hope the concept is clear: Motivate players to turn on the game and get in a couple of games with large incentives at the start of the active SP pool, but stop people from chewing through all the content by handing out fewer skillpoints when the player starts to leave the rest of the community behind. Important thing to note: In this model playing more always grants more rewards. The reward per effort ratio is just not constant but asymptotically approaches zero for a very large amount of SP earned per 7 days.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 180	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:05:00 - [17] - Quote Why not just make active sp accumulate into a pool like the passive sp? Boosters increase the rate. This pool carries over indefinitely. This way people cannot abuse active booster like now (getting 2 weeks for one seven day booster). CCP makes more monies, the playerbase is happy, everyone wins. an easy fix to Matchmaking
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 2297	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:07:00 - [18] - Quote I voted for a rollover system and I regret that decision. What I would like to see however is a Rollover SP or Banked SP system that has a cap on it. I understand not everyone wants to play Dust all the time, people go on vacation, have lives, play other games etc., but I don't see why we should reward players for not playing the game. In eve passive SP is only gained if one is paying their subscription. There is no possible to way for a new player in EVE to go and grind out a 150m+ toon. Why are we trying to make it so in Dust? In EVE there are always bigger fish and I think that's something we've lost sight of in Dust. "Bigger fish" is a misleading term anyways. In regards to "catching up with the pros" I strongly believe this is a myth supported by players who do not want to acknowledge that the reason they get stomped is not because there are people with more SP and better gear but because there are people who are just better than them. I have 30m SP right now. I was as strong as I was ever going to be on my main fit 15m SP ago. The rest is just luxury - new toys and expensive vehicles that don't put me any more ahead of the pack when it comes to 1v1 encounters. When I have 60m SP I won't be any stronger than I am today in my Templar Assault with my Templar ScR. My point is that if you don't play the game, and don't invest the time into it, you shouldn't get the same rewards as the people who do just for showing up once in a while. What I propose is that we limit the amount of SP eligible for the rollover system. This could be somewhere around 1 million SP players could grind out if they quit dust for a couple months, have busy work weeks, go on vacation, etc. It doesn't punish players for taking short breaks from the game but also it doesn't allow players who abandon the game for extended periods of time to come back without consequence. tl;dr 1mil max SP rollover on active SP doesn't punish short breaks and encourages people to actually play -ê HellsGÇáorm Director -ê `Gû¦Amarr VictorGû¦`
I-Shayz-I I-----I 1357	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:12:00 - [19] - Quote I would like some sort of "rested" system like they have in other MMOs in combination with whatever system ends up being in place. For instance, every X hours of not playing gives you Y amount of bonus sp that can be earned the next time you play. Active boosters can be used on top of this too. This way casual players who can't play for 48 hours will be treated to a nice bonus the next time they log in and will still be able to compete skill level-wise with players that were able to play constantly through those 48 hours. Links: List of Important Topics I make logistics videos!
RAMB0 Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:37:00 - [20] - Quote All passive should be removec from the game because it encourages AFK. Last week there was at least 3 people each mach on each team AFKing.

Eris Ernaga State Patriots 691	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:53:00 - [21] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: This morning we had a meeting with CCP, and during this meeting we were essentially given some homework. One of the things we railed pretty hard on was an emphatic urging that the old promise of a rollover system was sorely needed, The cap puts us in a bad spot, and we wanted people to have a way to rip down the barriers of segregation the cap creates between new and old players. So, the purpose of this thread is to collect player thoughts and proposals about how to rework the system. What is the best way to introduce a "catch up" mechanic? SP Rollover, No cap until X SP, No cap at all? Something else? The ball is in our court as players to propose to CCP the best way to move forward with this, so the CPM is coming to you guys in order to decide our play. If linking another thread : Please summarize (Or quote the OP) to allow for reasonable discussion and/or easy linking to CCP in future to say "In X post Y player said Z, and people liked/disliked it" You can't just catch up we have had to grind our sp just like newer players do CCP can start by removing the sp sinks because they're everywhere. Hoping I read this post right and you're suggesting new players get a way to catch up to older players and changing the sp system in general? Ba bang baby
Sirpidey Adtur Aloren Foundations 102	Posted - 2013.11.13 21:27:00 - [22] - Quote A few options that haven't been mentioned. Half-rollover. As in HALF of the remaining sp cap rolls over into next week. This means that at no time a player can have more than 2 weeks of cap remaining, so those who can't play one week aren't AS screwed. Double passive SP and remove the cap entirely (change SP gained from a match to simply WP earned). This brings it closer to EVE, yet still gives a small bonus to those who do play. I'd like to mention that I have personally never reached cap, and before I can make an informed decision about what is actually best for the playerbase, I'd need to see statistics on how many people actually REACH cap in a week. More important than fixing the cap though, is removing worthless skills, and empty levels.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1751	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:04:00 - [23] - Quote I'd say have a roll over SP pool, but reduce active SP by 50% and increase passive SP to compensate. That'd reduce the grind quite a bit.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 2007	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:36:00 - [24] - Quote There's also the possibility of reducing the need to 'grind SP' at all. Why not halve the amount of active SP we get per week and how fast we gain it by 25%, and put all that SP into passive? Then essentially we're playing for ISK, and I think CCP should focus around ISK, not SP. I really like how in EVE you only have to manage which skills you want to learn and not grind it out. Should be mostly the same here. So essentially, we'll get about 95k SP worth of active SP per week. This will be rolled over, with no cap on how much active SP you can accumulate. We increase the difficulty of earning SP. Instead of 5SP/second in-game, make it 4SP/second. Overall, it will still be easier to reach the new halved active cap. Now, that other 95k we lost worth of active SP should be distributed over a week's worth of passive SP. Finally, focus on making many different ways of earning ISK in-game. The player market, PvE, more interesting contracts (gamemodes), etc. ISK should be more important than SP. "When nothing is going your way, go out of your way to do nothing."
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1520	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:44:00 - [25] - Quote IDC about the cap. I never cap any way, so I don't give a faq. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Turkevich Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 95	Posted - 2013.11.13 22:58:00 - [26] - Quote I like the idea of an active SP bank that can be drawn from once you cap. I think all new players should start with a small amount (1-2 million) in that bank to allow them to "catch up" with veterans. After that I think that the only way players could deposit into that bank would be CCP events or AUR items. The bank should cap at 2 million or so to prevent people from crying about pay to win. They will anyway... All 2x and 3x SP events which raise the cap today should deposit into that bank instead. That way a player who takes a break could come back and have a nice pool to grind through.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 74	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:10:00 - [27] - Quote If you can combine Stefan Stahl 's , Iskandar Zul Karnain's and I-Shayz-I's proposals then I believe there is a fair solution to the problem . " Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .
Templar 10 The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 22	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:12:00 - [28] - Quote As i see it this game requires a cap i dont no how much but i would decrease the cap personally and as some one said earlyer make it so that new players get active booster points untill 3 - 4m sp or some thing once above 15m sp cap goes down to 100k a week thus meaning your less likly to stomp on the newer players between 4 and 10m sp you should have a weekly cap of 200 - 300k sp after 15 it drops to 100k a week. thats my opinion how ever if dust was to take what eve is like i think at a guess i cantrember the last time i really looked into it to buisy minning and making stuff usually. I belive eve is 2m sp a month on passive make dust match that. How ever the Cap is needed most definatly no roll overs no respecs unless nessesary ie new suits guns and what not. how ever im more inclined to say make a respec spicific for exsample new dropsuits refund points only to dropsuits if the player has requested it and make it open for a month only. On the other hand i would rather no respecs ever you made your bed lie in it.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 1727	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:13:00 - [29] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=97788 This was my suggestion some long time ago for how the cap should be changed - essentially a global cap based on the highest total SP that a player could reach if they capped every week since closed beta (since that was the last SP reset). Boosters would still allow players to gain extra SP towards that global cap but to be honest, if you reach that cap, you're probably not really needing boosters anymore anyway. Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
Denidil Taureran Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 52	Posted - 2013.11.13 23:44:00 - [30] - Quote Put me in the "Rollover or remove" camp. (And i support increasing passive SP)



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