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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
895
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Posted - 2013.11.14 06:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
There is no need for newbies to 'catch up' with vets in SP.
Pretty soon they'll be vets and a new set of newbies need to catch up, what then? Do we suddenly give them 100M SP in the first month so they'll not feel bad playing against 200M SP vets?
EVE reverted back to 80k starter SP just for this reason. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
896
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Posted - 2013.11.14 07:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
How will DUST look like in 10 years? |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
899
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Posted - 2013.11.14 18:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST is still going to be here in 10 years, so EVE as the only game that has done skill progression right for such a timeframe _IS_ relevant. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
905
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Posted - 2013.11.15 16:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think it's important to separate the topic of SP pools and 'catching up' with vets. (the latter should never be implemented if you love the game and want to be playing it in 10 years time)
When the SP pools/rollover thing was discussed months ago I recommended a logarithmically decreasing payout from an SP pool. (Comp. Sci graduate so this kind of stuff is second nature to me...)
Basically you have daily injections of (constant) SP into the player's SP pool (which is enough to go from zero to full in 3-4 weeks). When calculating the amount of SP to award the player the input value from the battle is run through a logarithmically decreasing function that makes it so that the closer you get to emptying the pool the less SP you get.
Now if you play your first battle in a month it's going to give you a lot of SP (could be reduced to not be overwhelming), ten battles in you're getting still very high rewards. Now if you stop playing for a month, during that session you might have emptied 3/4 of the SP pool.
Enter the weekend warrior; he binges on weekends... He plays 20(?) matches every weekend, and he takes his SP pool from 3/4 to 2/4 every week. The last game he plays every weekend gives him half the SP the first game gives him.
Last is the dope smoking college guy; he plays 10 matches every night (except weekends), and his SP pool is always at 1/4. He gets about half the SP of the weekend warrior per match. The reason his gameplay is rewarded is that at lower levels the SP pool regenerated a bit more per day. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
908
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Posted - 2013.11.15 18:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Skihids wrote:We had that before and it was universally hated.
If you think we've had what I suggest you don't actually understand what I'm suggesting. I'm saying this as someone who not only has studied these kinds of algorithms but also has been here since E3.
Vrain Matari wrote:I heavily endorsed Rasatsu's logarithmically damped reward system when he first proposed it, and still do. In a very real mathematical sense all staged or tiered reward systems are an approximation to the logarithmic system.
There are a lot of advantages to this system, but perhaps the biggest are that once you get a little bit of experience with it, it becomes very easy to estimate how much grinding time you need to reach your goals, and that there is no hard cap on your efforts(plus daily top-ups), and especially that if you only have a few hours a week to play you are well-rewarded for your time.
It provides good results for casuals and prevents runaway grinding with one elegant equation.
Thank you, genius is so very rarely appreciated. ;)
A complaint regarding the above algorithm is that it changes values too often. However this is easily solved by making the step up/down of SP rewards step functions instead of continuous, so that 3-4 games the same evening would give the same SP until you deplete the SP pool enough to step down a level. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
908
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:This scaling wp->sp degradation sounds absolutely terrible. It caters to casuals and hurts the people who already play games till cap every week. We just need to modify the pool to regenerate constantly rather than harsh breaks from every Tuesday to Wednesday. New users get some points thrown into the pool and faster initial accrual rate, and that's it.
I myself would find it infuriating to not have the wp/time I spend in combat to never line up with my end reward, who enjoys non-linear progression?
Well, the question is do you want DUST to still be a game where gaining SP matter in 10 years? I have a 7 year old EVE account and there's still stuff to train.
Being non-linear in the way I suggest would allow people who enjoy playing (way too much?) to still gain SP relative to less dedicated players, while casual gamers won't feel left out because they aren't getting any SP... At least they would get in active SP the same SP in that time span as we get by having the passive boosters.
Basically any "suggestion" in this thread that doesn't play out the progressions 10 years in to the futures are suspect. (Or rather; junk / death to the future of this game) |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
908
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
***CROSS POSTING***
Mike deVoid;957720 wrote:Okay, so it's stretched long enough that it'd be fairly consistent for a daily player. What about weekend players?
Also, difference WP -> SP rewards for different players would an issue. So although there might be very little inconsistency within a single small play session - you have differences over long play sessions, between sessions with larger gaps gaps, and between different players.
A weakness of this is that players who ask the question "Am I being fairly rewarded?" don't have a simple or easily accessible answer.
Plus, as a programmer you're a special breed: you're very comfortable with complexity whereas most people aren't and don't trust things they can't understand - especially when they thing it *should* be simple.
Well, that is one of the things that I work on (in terms of personal development) constantly; where I see complexity there are times where I can reduce the complexity to a system that I can make sense of... But explaining it even to my fellow programmers can be difficult. Sometimes it is along the lines of; "it's better if you do the ID translation at the Y level rather than the X level", "why?", "cause it, uhm... " and then I have to explain architectural decisions and good coding practices that (for the former) is too complex to explain in detail and for the latter is only really understood by a coder who's spent a lot of time thinking about readable/clean code...
/slightly drunk, rant off...
Things *should* be simple, but if the step function is done right the players will feel it is simple when they see that their friends who play +++A LOT+++ get X amount of SP per week, they (who play average a couple matches a day) get X * 2/3, the weeken warrior gets X * 1/2 and the family guy gets X * 1/4... On average...
Now you are worried about the change in the SP payout. The algorithm I recommend does have a noticeable difference in payout... However that is for the irregular gamers only; if you play consistently you have the same SP payout (assuming you don't straddle one of the steps of the step SP function).
So in terms of SP reward volatility; high (weed) college student -> low volatility, weekend warrior dad -> earn enough and you can see the drop in SP gains, playing-GTA-BF-WTF-then-DUST guy gets good SP on first match (or dampened by a border dampening function) and then gets a steep reduction...
Basically the more you play the more stable your payouts are going to be; the reward for being an addicts is _adjustable_ with my recommended algorithm.
And that is the important part; it gives knobs to adjust while the current (and recommended) algorithms are just bad approximations of what we would really want to see. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
911
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Posted - 2013.11.15 20:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iskandar Zul Karnain wrote:Rasatsu your suggestion is dope.
Sorry, in Japan it is really hard to safely get any dope...
However yes; seen from the perspective off someone who understands both EVE and DUST skill progressions in terms of a decade or two, yes... my recommendations are geared towards depriving the common DUST merc from easy gains.
Derp. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
917
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Posted - 2013.11.17 11:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
No cap until X SP just means new players are going to burn out in the first month instead of playing for years.
Apply some thought before making suggestions... |
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