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Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2850	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:46:00 - [1] - Quote So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Kaze Eyrou Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 762	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:49:00 - [2] - Quote Welcome back Judge! Closed Beta Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
CamClarke KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 174	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:53:00 - [3] - Quote Please slug Soraya when you see him, he's basically been Wormtongue.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18278	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:53:00 - [4] - Quote fetches popcorn You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. GM Scotsman is my hero.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3346	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:56:00 - [5] - Quote So what is the role of the ADS? Also Arkena, pass the popcorn http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
Immortal John Ripper 25196	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:56:00 - [6] - Quote LMAO Dear Diary - The thoughts of a madman.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13685	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:58:00 - [7] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. As an HAV pilot I can vouch that the presence of an ADS on the field makes me chuckle while I ignore it where once it made me actually adjust my strategy in order to take it down. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3376	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:01:00 - [8] - Quote Useless? Is that why it's used widely in some of most competitive PC matches. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 10	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:03:00 - [9] - Quote Welcome back Judge! As you've noted already, we've missed you!
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2852	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:06:00 - [10] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Welcome back Judge! As you've noted already, we've missed you! I'm am back. Refreshed, Angry and coming out kicking and screaming for you guys. CCP need to know you have people on your side. Kiss arse need not apply. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

steve0809 GamersForChrist 38	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:06:00 - [11] - Quote And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2856	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:10:00 - [12] - Quote steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you i guess my cloak video bug missed you, or my one about how under powered swarms were, or the one about how dropships should be for transport, or how I tried to encoraged tankers out the redline, or how I was vocal about autoaim or strafeing..... Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
7 Djin The Hundred Acre Hood 23	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:11:00 - [13] - Quote Buff the damage and hp of the ADS
Horizon Limit Nexus Balusa Horizon 65	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:12:00 - [14] - Quote Well not killing a tank or another dropship alone with a small turret seem legit to me, i pilot sometime, the only problem i have is damage feedback which knock me out of my trajectory most of the time. Voice of oga....
Denchlad 7 Dead Man's Game 788	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:13:00 - [15] - Quote waits for Atiim to inevitibly show up The Connoisseur of Weapons. 19/19 L5 P2. 66-3 with Dual-Miltia Bolt Pistols. OP? OP.
hfderrtgvcd 912	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:14:00 - [16] - Quote ADSs no longer getting a 35 kdr = completely useless You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3951	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:15:00 - [17] - Quote hfderrtgvcd wrote: ADSs no longer getting a 35 kdr = completely useless Hahaha, don't be silly... 45 is probably more accurate. My advice to you, playa...
Immortal John Ripper 25198	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:16:00 - [18] - Quote Okay I am over the initial shock of the thread title and initial rant. Honestly Judge, I misJudged you. Yea pun intended. You were absent for a while but now I can tell that you are a passionate player. Dear Diary - The thoughts of a madman.
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 621	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:16:00 - [19] - Quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkeZfc5IpkE The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3768	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:20:00 - [20] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. If I can I would like to get you into voice with whoever and discuss some things. As an AV player I have become less and less happy with the state of vehicles and I need to get some input on how to present this and not run crap numbers. Bluntly I think there are a few core design issues that clash with current stated objectives that are legacy problems from beta. Some of which I brought up but got shouted down on. I would like to talk. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3768	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:21:00 - [21] - Quote steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you Post on your main if yer gonna be an ass. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1394	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:24:00 - [22] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Disagreeing here. From my ADS sources: ADS pilots really had to change tactics, e.g. use different method of swarm evasion than before and choose whether they want to harden up vs forges or swarms, not both. From personal experience: I don't know if it is a consolidation or not, but no dropship has ever been scary to tanks. Certainly hasn't changed now. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Sir Snugglz Red Star. EoN. 873	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:24:00 - [23] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you i guess my cloak video bug missed you, or my one about how under powered swarms were, or the one about how dropships should be for transport, or how I tried to encoraged tankers out the redline, or how I was vocal about autoaim or strafeing..... LMAO, what happened???? you were so pro to all the changes after I stated the downfall when the nerfs began.I don't mind any changes, but someone posted a video on how investing points into the RoF bonus hindered the incubus because it increased the rate of heating lowing the amount of shots on the rail before overheating. Never confirmed if it was true but the video looks legit. But we got an ehp buff!??? lol. For the record, I noticed the downhill slope when it was decided that blaster installations became unkillable and were given an AI that autoattacked DS without having to be aggro.... But I'm actually interested in how you feel us pilots have been screwed. -Pro AFKing LVL 5 -Luck is just one of my skills -Just because I make flying look easy doesn't mean it is
ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI Bragian Order Amarr Empire 43	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:25:00 - [24] - Quote Crybaby thread...
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2856	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:26:00 - [25] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. If I can I would like to get you into voice with whoever and discuss some things. As an AV player I have become less and less happy with the state of vehicles and I need to get some input on how to present this and not run crap numbers. Bluntly I think there are a few core design issues that clash with current stated objectives that are legacy problems from beta. Some of which I brought up but got shouted down on. I would like to talk. Im on right now. Inv me Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Cass Caul 1238	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:29:00 - [26] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Useless? Is that why it's used widely in some of most competitive PC matches. Because rail guns are more effective than taking out tanks instead of missiles. And Missiles, especially on the python, still dominate infantry because of the ludicrously high amount of splash damage it does. Missiles aren't insta-gibing tanks Iignore their performance against infantry On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 107	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:32:00 - [27] - Quote Welcome back Judge Whilst you've been away they've balanced ADS on the basis everyone has 25m SP invested and is running proto all the time
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3770	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:33:00 - [28] - Quote Rolling into devhangout now. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2860	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:39:00 - [29] - Quote If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1974	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:44:00 - [30] - Quote At long last, the Judge has returned. I don't want it I just need it To breath, to feel, to know I'm alive

ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI Bragian Order Amarr Empire 48	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:56:00 - [31] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. After the release of Delta, Dust 514 has become more enjoyable and the overall experience feels better. The most noticeable change is that AV feels like a role, and not a sub-class. I could go on, but I will not because this a #MyFOTMGotNerfedThread and more importantly a #CryBabyThread. You pride yourself on approaching problems objectively, yet you make this kind of thread If you want real feedback then you know where to post and how to post
xavier zor G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 89	Posted - 2014.10.20 22:58:00 - [32] - Quote steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you I didn't know how to vote...but i would have voted for myself as i didn't know anyone on the forums at the time The problems mainly arouse with vehicles as many players use infantry and heaps of data is stored about infantry, but not nearly enough for vehicles because 3-4 people a match at most use them (appart from molone labe, nyain chan....dirty tankers) scout ck.0 here!
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 76	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:02:00 - [33] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. Maybe you're just supposed to be a deterrent. I mean AV cant kill vehicles either and its totally OK, right? Just chase them off and you've done your job!
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2864	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:14:00 - [34] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. If I can I would like to get you into voice with whoever and discuss some things. As an AV player I have become less and less happy with the state of vehicles and I need to get some input on how to present this and not run crap numbers. Bluntly I think there are a few core design issues that clash with current stated objectives that are legacy problems from beta. Some of which I brought up but got shouted down on. I would like to talk. Dude. We are on voice together right now Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13686	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:16:00 - [35] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. If I can I would like to get you into voice with whoever and discuss some things. As an AV player I have become less and less happy with the state of vehicles and I need to get some input on how to present this and not run crap numbers. Bluntly I think there are a few core design issues that clash with current stated objectives that are legacy problems from beta. Some of which I brought up but got shouted down on. I would like to talk. Dude. We are on voice together right now I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2868	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:19:00 - [36] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. If I can I would like to get you into voice with whoever and discuss some things. As an AV player I have become less and less happy with the state of vehicles and I need to get some input on how to present this and not run crap numbers. Bluntly I think there are a few core design issues that clash with current stated objectives that are legacy problems from beta. Some of which I brought up but got shouted down on. I would like to talk. Dude. We are on voice together right now I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. Ill be in DEVHANGOUT tomorrow Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Gentlemen's.Club 5524	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:20:00 - [37] - Quote I regret voting for the CPM, this thread makes me shake my head in disappointment. EVE 21 Day Trial Templar BPOs EVE 2nd decade CE items
REDBACK96USMC Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 106	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:25:00 - [38] - Quote Wow a cry baby thread from Judge. Who knew? As Rattati stated and as someone who espouses the importance of numbers: The numbers overwhelmingly showed the ADS was too OP. CPM had no say in the changes and shouldnt as long as you are on it.
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 107	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:27:00 - [39] - Quote REDBACK96USMC wrote: Wow a cry baby thread from Judge. Who knew? As Rattati stated and as someone who espouses the importance of numbers: The numbers overwhelmingly showed the ADS was too OP. CPM had no say in the changes and shouldnt as long as you are on it. What numbers?
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2868	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:27:00 - [40] - Quote REDBACK96USMC wrote: Wow a cry baby thread from Judge. Who knew? As Rattati stated and as someone who espouses the importance of numbers: The numbers overwhelmingly showed the ADS was too OP. CPM had no say in the changes and shouldnt as long as you are on it. Not a cry thread. A thread pointing out the reality. Things have gone off course. We need to swing it back. The numbers said one thing.. the action taken did not represent the best option based on the numbers. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1299	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:34:00 - [41] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. welcome to being Mortal.. and if youve only been flying ads for 2 days you really are gonna suck as ads is a very heavy sp investment on both time, skill and SP.. so yeah.. instead of ranting, ask the pros.. as for MLT ship vs Protoship.. 1. ADS is still only a "standard" level of that ship type.. 2. Blaster = win vs other dropships (especially on incubus) 3. MLT is just standard with higher cpu and pg costs basically.. and finally.. GIT GUD! iv still seen ADS pilots wrecking face. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1299	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:37:00 - [42] - Quote 7 Djin wrote: Buff the damage and hp of the ADS the damage was recently nerfed along with ROF.. buff the damage and missle ads will be the slayer gods they once were and then AV will need yet more buffs and tweeks [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2872	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:38:00 - [43] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. welcome to being Mortal.. and if youve only been flying ads for 2 days you really are gonna suck as ads is a very heavy sp investment on both time, skill and SP.. so yeah.. instead of ranting, ask the pros.. as for MLT ship vs Protoship.. 1. ADS is still only a "standard" level of that ship type.. 2. Blaster = win vs other dropships (especially on incubus) 3. MLT is just standard with higher cpu and pg costs basically.. and finally.. GIT GUD! iv still seen ADS pilots wrecking face. thanks. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13686	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:38:00 - [44] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. welcome to being Mortal.. and if youve only been flying ads for 2 days you really are gonna suck as ads is a very heavy sp investment on both time, skill and SP.. so yeah.. instead of ranting, ask the pros.. as for MLT ship vs Protoship.. 1. ADS is still only a "standard" level of that ship type.. 2. Blaster = win vs other dropships (especially on incubus) 3. MLT is just standard with higher cpu and pg costs basically.. and finally.. GIT GUD! iv still seen ADS pilots wrecking face. You are telling Judge, a player widely respected as one of the best/most knowledgible ADS pilots, who made an entire youtube channel based on ADS piloting and in depth mechanics discussion...... to ask someone else about how to fly? For realsies bro? ...Minmatar......when will they learn..... "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Cass Caul 1240	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:39:00 - [45] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. See the problem with that is, it would require something like not allowing the pilot to also use the large turret. And speaking of Missiles as AV. I haven't had a single issue with the past update effecting my Incubus. It did before and still does take out tanks. Oh, wait. That's right. It neither had nor lost a RoF bonus to the missile turrets I used. Fancy that, I could still kill a tank without the RoF bonus. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6749	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:40:00 - [46] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: At long last, the Judge has returned. Does seem a little coincidental doesn't it? { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1301	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:41:00 - [47] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Disagreeing here. From my ADS sources: ADS pilots really had to change tactics, e.g. use different method of swarm evasion than before and choose whether they want to harden up vs forges or swarms, not both. From personal experience: I don't know if it is a consolidation or not, but no dropship has ever been scary to tanks. Certainly hasn't changed now. i recall how pythons with missles used to chew me out in MLT DS's or tanks with little to no effort.. with the M-CRU buffing in echo or 1.9 i think ads will be a "troop transport" and "Air support" ship not a "Air/Ground Superiority" ship [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1301	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:44:00 - [48] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. ADS are no longer godmode. you actually need more then entry level SP to be good in an ADS. you need skill to fly. they were too OP but now they seem just right.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1301	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:46:00 - [49] - Quote ReGnYuM LEGENDof DEI wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. After the release of Delta, Dust 514 has become more enjoyable and the overall experience feels better. The most noticeable change is that AV feels like a role, and not a sub-class. I could go on, but I will not because this a #MyFOTMGotNerfedThread and more importantly a #CryBabyThread. You pride yourself on approaching problems objectively, yet you make this kind of thread If you want real feedback then you know where to post and how to post i agree if there is more then 1 or 2 vehicles playing AV can be fun, challenging, and a help to the team and can net some decent WPs too [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 146	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:49:00 - [50] - Quote I am just glad we will have a CPM that isn't a dimwit good luck wading through their foolishness judge. I look forward to your future videos. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13687	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:52:00 - [51] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: True Adamance wrote: I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. See the problem with that is, it would require something like not allowing the pilot to also use the large turret. And speaking of Missiles as AV. I haven't had a single issue with the past update effecting my Incubus. It did before and still does take out tanks. Oh, wait. That's right. It neither had nor lost a RoF bonus to the missile turrets I used. Fancy that, I could still kill a tank without the RoF bonus. Hardly. When I say have HAV work like tanks I'm talking about a fundamental re-designation of their roles making tanks give the perception that they are powerful vehicles worth having on the field. Basically this to me would require the following. - Re-designation of the roles of Turrets by making Large Turrets all adhere to the slow tracking high power weapons they should be. - Re-thinking the speed and handling of HAV to reduce their mobility to convey the idea of weight and inertia - Re-thinking how AV applies it damage to HAV. Currently vs most AV forms I feel invincible. I want AV to be more punchy and carry more weight. - Re-introduction of old modules. - To make the fitting process of HAV more akin to fitting Ships in EVE. Hull, Modules, Turrets all providing something worthwhile. Basically I want to suggest making tanks. Heavily Shielded/Armoured, Slow, Powerful Ordinance,Expensive, Customisable. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2875	Posted - 2014.10.20 23:57:00 - [52] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: I am just glad we will have a CPM that isn't a dimwit good luck wading through their foolishness judge. I look forward to your future videos. Thanks. I read the last 20 pages in General and feedback, and I just did not see enough support for the issues that were being raised, Not just ADS, though I admit freely that it was the straw that broke my back, but for so many. Did you see that complaints about the bolt pistol? or the issue many were having with the missile tank turret? Too many things need to be addressed and they are slipping under the carpet. The ADS thing is just a wake up call to me that we need to shout when bad things happen. At the same time, we need to praise the good. A balance of sorts. 1.9 awesome. thank you CCP. ADS... you did a poor job. Map changes thanks, SCR heat changes... no thanks. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13687	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:02:00 - [53] - Quote Foot goes in mouth...... "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires"* -Kador Ouryon
Yeeeuuuupppp Vengeance Unbound 697	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:03:00 - [54] - Quote Welcome back judge, I hope you're as pissed as I am about the ads skills as I am.. rip sp. Have you tried the incubus + rail combo? Unbelievable. I'm sorry this was your welcome back gift You wouldn't shoot a kid with glasses, would you? .l.. PSN: GMANCASH Rage Proficiency V
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 79	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:15:00 - [55] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. They need a role that doesn't involve slaughtering enough players to give watching bystanders FPS Gamer's PTSD
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 146	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:19:00 - [56] - Quote I believe people try to keep it light in general you will find most issues in features and ideas. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 234	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:21:00 - [57] - Quote 20 mil in ads havent flown for 2 months. Cant wait til we get that respec im getting out of it so fast. Devs idea of an ads is decoration makes the battle look cooler like somethings actually going on. Shoot at it a couple times and get back to infantry fighting.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3349	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:24:00 - [58] - Quote Still want a response... what is an ADS supposed to do? http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1632	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:25:00 - [59] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. welcome to being Mortal.. and if youve only been flying ads for 2 days you really are gonna suck as ads is a very heavy sp investment on both time, skill and SP.. so yeah.. instead of ranting, ask the pros.. as for MLT ship vs Protoship.. 1. ADS is still only a "standard" level of that ship type.. 2. Blaster = win vs other dropships (especially on incubus) 3. MLT is just standard with higher cpu and pg costs basically.. and finally.. GIT GUD! iv still seen ADS pilots wrecking face. I actually fell out of my chair reading this. Thank you for that.. If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
jace silencerww Second-Nature 64	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:26:00 - [60] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you i guess my cloak video bug missed you, or my one about how under powered swarms were, or the one about how dropships should be for transport, or how I tried to encoraged tankers out the redline, or how I was vocal about autoaim or strafeing..... LMAO, what happened???? you were so pro to all the changes after I stated the downfall when the nerfs began.I don't mind any changes, but someone posted a video on how investing points into the RoF bonus hindered the incubus because it increased the rate of heating lowing the amount of shots on the rail before overheating. Never confirmed if it was true but the video looks legit. But we got an ehp buff!??? lol. For the record, I noticed the downhill slope when it was decided that blaster installations became unkillable and were given an AI that autoattacked DS without having to be aggro.... But I'm actually interested in how you feel us pilots have been screwed. think he was playing DESTINY. welcome back judge. lol ccp nerf the small rail turret rof then nerfed rof on ads so yea it stinks and small blasters on ds is a huge joke unless we get the old stabilized blasters with the longer range and better zoom. then sure blasters on ds are ok. here is something judge try killing a 3 rep tank with missiles LOL no back up to help you.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13690	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:28:00 - [61] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. welcome to being Mortal.. and if youve only been flying ads for 2 days you really are gonna suck as ads is a very heavy sp investment on both time, skill and SP.. so yeah.. instead of ranting, ask the pros.. as for MLT ship vs Protoship.. 1. ADS is still only a "standard" level of that ship type.. 2. Blaster = win vs other dropships (especially on incubus) 3. MLT is just standard with higher cpu and pg costs basically.. and finally.. GIT GUD! iv still seen ADS pilots wrecking face. I actually fell out of my chair reading this. Thank you for that.. God the look on the faces players like him if CCP ever introduced the ADV and PRO variants..... No what Apothecary does not understand is for vehicles its less a matter of MLT vs STD It's more like T1 vs T2. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 256	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:28:00 - [62] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Questions: 1.) How much did you fly the ADS before the nerf? 2.) What was your average KDR in a dropship before nerf?
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1632	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:29:00 - [63] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Questions: 1.) How much did you fly the ADS before the nerf? 2.) What was your average KDR in a dropship before nerf? Are these people real? Someone tell me please... If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 256	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:31:00 - [64] - Quote It's a serious question. I want a baseline of knowledge and experience before my next round of questions. I am trying to form an opinion on the topic and must admit I feel like I do not know enough from the pilot side of things as I am not a pilot myself. I never form opinions on things before I obtain as much knowledge as I can about the topic.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6751	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:39:00 - [65] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: I am just glad we will have a CPM that isn't a dimwit good luck wading through their foolishness judge. I look forward to your future videos. Thanks. I read the last 20 pages in General and feedback, and I just did not see enough support for the issues that were being raised, What else is new? Imagine what it was like -before- you came back and decided to sit down and read every single issue people raise. Seriously, the whole controversy with the CPM is that they don't represent the players and if you're just now realizing that the majority of the community simply doesn't get enough support/doesn't get heard I feel really bad for you now that you're actually on the CPM. Then again, yanno, maybe if we had that ISD thingy I kept bitchin' for that no-one seemed/seems to care about... Maybe it wouldn't be so bad. We'd have volunteers that could actively speak for themselves. It's really not that illusive of a concept; unfortunately the powers that be (and those powers that were elected) just don't seem to honest-to-god give a **** about it or seem to outwardly oppose it. See, an ideal CPM candidate (to me) knows who to talk to to get advice on a situation - they don't assume themselves to be the experts and they don't say, "Yo, come talk to me"; they -find- the people if they haven't already formed a relationship with them. There isn't any reason that a representative should still have to be forming relationships after they've been elected to get the needed things done. What we have, with the exception of two or three of the CPM Reps, are a handful of people that are taken aback at the fact that the community's voices aren't being heard or outright antagonize them for their differing opinions. What is absolutely maddening is that this still comes as a surprise to me, but whatever. { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1302	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:39:00 - [66] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: 20 mil in ads havent flown for 2 months. Cant wait til we get that respec im getting out of it so fast. Devs idea of an ads is decoration makes the battle look cooler like somethings actually going on. Shoot at it a couple times and get back to infantry fighting. thats IF they give us a respec tho i think it may just be a refund when Vehicle parity comes.. or it will be a big middle finger and an "FU no respec" [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1302	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:41:00 - [67] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: I am just glad we will have a CPM that isn't a dimwit good luck wading through their foolishness judge. I look forward to your future videos. Thanks. I read the last 20 pages in General and feedback, and I just did not see enough support for the issues that were being raised, What else is new? Imagine what it was like -before- you came back and decided to sit down and read every single issue people raise. Seriously, the whole controversy with the CPM is that they don't represent the players and if you're just now realizing that the majority of the community simply doesn't get enough support/doesn't get heard I feel really bad for you now that you're actually on the CPM. Then again, yanno, maybe if we had that ISD thingy I kept bitchin' for that no-one seemed/seems to care about... Maybe it wouldn't be so bad. We'd have volunteers that could actively speak for themselves. It's really not that illusive of a concept; unfortunately the powers that be (and those powers that were elected) just don't seem to honest-to-god give a **** about it or seem to outwardly oppose it. See, an ideal CPM candidate (to me) knows who to talk to to get advice on a situation - they don't assume themselves to be the experts and they don't say, "Yo, come talk to me"; they -find- the people if they haven't already formed a relationship with them. There isn't any reason that a representative should still have to be forming relationships after they've been elected to get the needed things done. What we have, with the exception of two or three of the CPM Reps, are a handful of people that are taken aback at the fact that the community's voices aren't being heard or outright antagonize them for their differing opinions. What is absolutely maddening is that this still comes as a surprise to me, but whatever. indeed theya re supposed to represent the community and yet they represent their own self interests.. talk about Democracy! [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2881	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:41:00 - [68] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Questions: 1.) How much did you fly the ADS before the nerf? 2.) What was your average KDR in a dropship before nerf? 1) A lot. Really. Lots 2) over 10 matches say 15 kills a match with a death every 3 matches. That's a 50 KDR- ish (in a dropship which I do not use all the time so game stats are not relational). P and L that is WORSE than a 39 000 ISK suit amarr assualt over the same match range, with a 10 kill per match rate and a 3 death per match. That amarr would have a 3.3 KDR Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Dark Taboo 1753	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:42:00 - [69] - Quote Its funny how people complain about drop ships going 30 /0 when yesterday I say a heavy go 60/1. Going 30/0 is something many people do on a regular basis with militia shotguns. The whole being immune to 90% of the damage on the battlefield is also a falacy since every player has a free fit to deal with vehicles but choose not to use it. To add into that train of thought, being immune to 90% of DA!age on the fiepdm doesn't even matter when it only takes 1 swarmed or 1 forger to completely disable an ads from doingnits job and 2 synced av players to kill the vehicle quickly and be home for brunch. I can also talk about specialization and that most pilots are completely specced into their role unlike the majority of the av coming into the forums to ** and moan about ads and how hard they are to kill. A fully specced scout will wreck , a fully specced heavy will wreck **, and so should a full specced ads. I don't know the numbers rattati is using but, his numbers should also include so investment in terms of lethality and usefulness since skill are balanced based on the total advantage they give, that's why the have multipliers. Anyways I am being very vague because every time I take the time to make a well thought out post all that happens is that troll come out and play and don't actually supply any logical or backed up arguments. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 80	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:44:00 - [70] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Did you see that complaints about the bolt pistol? ... Too many things need to be addressed and they are slipping under the carpet. They have nerfed the bolt pistol twice already, and are still looking at it with dirty eyes.

Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 6752	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:44:00 - [71] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Its funny how people complain about drop ships going 30 /0 when yesterday I say a heavy go 60/1. Going 30/0 is something many people do on a regular basis with militia shotguns. The whole being immune to 90% of the damage on the battlefield is also a falacy since every player has a free fit to deal with vehicles but choose not to use it. To add into that train of thought, being immune to 90% of DA!age on the fiepdm doesn't even matter when it only takes 1 swarmed or 1 forger to completely disable an ads from doingnits job and 2 synced av players to kill the vehicle quickly and be home for brunch. I can also talk about specialization and that most pilots are completely specced into their role unlike the majority of the av coming into the forums to ** and moan about ads and how hard they are to kill. A fully specced scout will wreck , a fully specced heavy will wreck **, and so should a full specced ads. I don't know the numbers rattati is using but, his numbers should also include so investment in terms of lethality and usefulness since skill are balanced based on the total advantage they give, that's why the have multipliers. Anyways I am being very vague because every time I take the time to make a well thought out post all that happens is that troll come out and play and don't actually supply any logical or backed up arguments. And what about a fully specced Assault/Commando? { \| bittervetmode = 0 I } == Description == This player has recovered morale [[Category: Hopeful]]
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1128	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:51:00 - [72] - Quote thx you for ur apology Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :) Pls fix SCR CCP
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion 80	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:53:00 - [73] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: yadda yadda The whole being immune to 90% of the damage on the battlefield is also a falacy since every player has a free fit to deal with vehicles but choose not to use it. blah blah The militia swarm launcher is a bad joke, and the militia fit doesnt even have a navohive. An AV player cant do his pathetic sad job of not killing a vehicle all game and watching them fly away only to come back in 15 seconds at full health if they dont have nanohives. But its ok, like most swarmers he probably wont last long enough to notice.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9819	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:54:00 - [74] - Quote Wow. I did not see this coming. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3349	Posted - 2014.10.21 00:55:00 - [75] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Still want a response... what is an ADS supposed to do? No response yet... not suprising... http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
Denchlad 7 Dead Man's Game 793	Posted - 2014.10.21 01:13:00 - [76] - Quote Im gonna tread carefully before going in depth with a reply. ADS feel fine to me but at the same time they dont. I personally think its to do with the ROF nerf rather than AV at this point. The Connoisseur of Weapons. 19/19 L5 P2. 66-3 with Dual-Miltia Bolt Pistols. OP? OP.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 834	Posted - 2014.10.21 01:50:00 - [77] - Quote Denchlad 7 wrote: Im gonna tread carefully before going in depth with a reply. ADS feel fine to me but at the same time they dont. I personally think its to do with the ROF nerf rather than AV at this point. I think Breakin Stuff said it best in another thread: AV vs V is fine; ADS vs AV isn't (I bastardised it somewhat.) Alt of Halla Murr.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 256	Posted - 2014.10.21 01:58:00 - [78] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be phucking ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Questions: 1.) How much did you fly the ADS before the nerf? 2.) What was your average KDR in a dropship before nerf? 1) A lot. Really. Lots 2) over 10 matches say 15 kills a match with a death every 3 matches. That's a 50 KDR- ish (in a dropship which I do not use all the time so game stats are not relational). P and L that is WORSE than a 39 000 ISK suit amarr assualt over the same match range, with a 10 kill per match rate and a 3 death per match. That amarr would have a 3.3 KDR I have since watched your videos. So I am accrediting a fair amount of credibility to your answers here. So If i may, I have a list of questions for you. 1.) You stated in the ADS you had about 50KDR. Assuming that you are one of the best it is safe to say your 'average' ADS pilot will not be reaching such a high KDR. What would you say the average ADS dropship pilot pulls? 2.) Even the best frontline players do not have anywhere near a 50 KDR. Or even a 30. Snipers often did -- but that is a result of redline sniping so we can expect sniper KDRs to change. For players in the thick of battle (such as ADS pilots.) What would you say is a reasonable KDR for a vehicle driver to have? 3.) Do you consider the current problem with ADS an issue with its damage production or tanking ability (or both.) And why? 4.) Do you consider the ADS fair before the nerf. And why? 5.) How do you personally differentiate between an average pilot and skilled pilot outside of game stats? (ie. certain manuever capability, play style, aim, etc...) 6.) What do you consider ADS to be effective against? What do you think should be effective against ADS? How effective are we talking? (ie. when it comes to AA -- how many AA infantry and of what level should be about an even match against a ADS dropship of what level? And of course -- why. I apologize for the number of questions and some of the complexity that may be inherently necessary in your answers. I'm just trying not to lemming my opinon off a cliff and understand the issue. From an infantry perspective I found myself and my squadmates to have a real problem with ADS before the nerf. When I forgegunned I usually scared dropships off -- but almost NEVER killed one. They escaped almost every time. Even if I wasn't the only one shooting it. If I was in my assault suit I, and in fact many others, despite having swarms/plasma cannons would simply fall over dead about as fast as if a HAV rolled right up on us. So I can only speak on the point that as an infantry player -- swarms/plasma felt ineffectual before. However, I don't want assume that is because AA was weak or ADS was strong. I am more concerned with the logistical issues from the pilot side as I already understand the logistical issues from the ground side. Thank you for your time on this.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2047	Posted - 2014.10.21 02:03:00 - [79] - Quote Just going to say this as a joke but its actually not far from the truth... AV player - "Waaahhh sob sob my light AV is not as powerful as Heavy AV but I am too stubborn to switch to a heavy and accept the advantages and disadvantages that come with it. CCP make my light AV as strong as heavy AV" Tanker - "Waahhhh sob sob my anti vehicle turret doesn't **** infantry any more yet I am not willing to fit small turrets and have gunners, nor am I willing to adapt my playstyle" ADS - "Waaahhh sob sob my overpowered rate of fire has been nerfed and now I actually have to worry about swarms and my GTFO module takes longer to recharge" Overall every role is bias to their own wants and needs. EACH and EVERY role has legitimate concerns and problems that need to be addressed but seriously as far as I can tell the worst of each role are ALL as bad as each other. I really would like balance for every role, the ADS has problems right now and AVers will have to accept that just as much as ADS pilots must become accustom to a lesser level of power. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1291	Posted - 2014.10.21 02:04:00 - [80] - Quote judge, can you please review the swarms and show that they are still making 90 degree turns and phasing through any obstacle they encounter- this was supposed to be implemented on top of their buff but they did not implement this, they only buffed the swarms without any rework of their physics, as promised.. AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2217	Posted - 2014.10.21 02:10:00 - [81] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. See? We told you. This is what it's like to get bent over. Only, think of it for 2 years running, many times over. I really hope you've learned your lesson. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3350	Posted - 2014.10.21 02:24:00 - [82] - Quote So Wise people of GD... what is an ADS supposed to do, I mean an Item is balanced if it does it's role well and is able to do so. but you first need to define what THAT role is... http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
ROMULUS H3X research lab 198	Posted - 2014.10.21 03:02:00 - [83] - Quote Dropships are for transport..... everything else is just a bonus. Stop trying to fly around in the air like vegeta, destroying everything in your path... FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS PLASMA/PISTOL/PUNCH ALL OF YOU PUNKS GET HUMILIATED AFTER LUNCH!
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3941	Posted - 2014.10.21 03:10:00 - [84] - Quote ROMULUS H3X wrote: Dropships are for transport..... everything else is just a bonus. Stop trying to fly around in the air like vegeta, destroying everything in your path... +1 for DBZ reference. Anywho, good luck, Judge. While I believe Swarms vs DS is okay, now, DS vs Anything is not. They lack both boom and running away. What they lack in one place (Running Away from swarms) should be dealt with the other (more boom).
danthrax martin Immortal Guides 158	Posted - 2014.10.21 03:13:00 - [85] - Quote TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: judge, can you please review the swarms and show that they are still making 90 degree turns and phasing through any obstacle they encounter- this was supposed to be implemented on top of their buff but they did not implement this, they only buffed the swarms without any rework of their physics, as promised.. How do I get my swarms to do that? I need to KNOW! Pro Galmando - Gal Sentinel Suicidal A/V Moron
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 85	Posted - 2014.10.21 04:11:00 - [86] - Quote danthrax martin wrote: TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: judge, can you please review the swarms and show that they are still making 90 degree turns and phasing through any obstacle they encounter- this was supposed to be implemented on top of their buff but they did not implement this, they only buffed the swarms without any rework of their physics, as promised.. How do I get my swarms to do that? I need to KNOW! I noticed something odd a while back after the turn rate nerf: While firing downward from a high tower, my friends swarms vs. an incoming tank were unable to keep up with the tank going in a straight line below us (couldn't make a > 30 degree turn), but when a drop ship flew by just below our platform, his swarms turned almost 180 degrees to follow and still hit them. The dropship was closer and at a more extreme angle, flying faster than the tank was going, but they were able to track. There is something wrong with the tracking thats making it inconsistent.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3354	Posted - 2014.10.21 04:21:00 - [87] - Quote ROMULUS H3X wrote: Dropships are for transport..... everything else is just a bonus. Stop trying to fly around in the air like vegeta, destroying everything in your path... You win GD... you are the first resident of GD who can see and understand a simple question, now go forth before being consumed by incompetence. http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3354	Posted - 2014.10.21 04:22:00 - [88] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: So Wise people of GD... what is an ADS supposed to do, I mean an Item is balanced if it does it's role well and is able to do so. but you first need to define what THAT role is... Anyone else think that they can answer a simple question? http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1816	Posted - 2014.10.21 04:24:00 - [89] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: So what is the role of the ADS? Also Arkena, pass the popcorn to give people with no gungame something to do so they can feel important. KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3354	Posted - 2014.10.21 04:45:00 - [90] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: Killar-12 wrote: So what is the role of the ADS? Also Arkena, pass the popcorn to give people with no gungame something to do so they can feel important. lol, wait, then why am I not using it? Still a valid (yet still witty) response +1 to you. http://evil-guide.tripod.com/

Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1711	Posted - 2014.10.21 05:15:00 - [91] - Quote Welcome back from destiny is you shoddy cpm who shouldn't be. Delt for CPM2 CPM1 MISSION : FAILED Moss-delt on skype
Ghural WarRavens Capital Punishment. 321	Posted - 2014.10.21 06:43:00 - [92] - Quote Yes. ADS are useless now. Their only use is to get spawns on towers in glitchy locations, which a militia dropship can do anyway. Terrible work CCP. Thankyou for ruining the millions of SP I invested in them. Dropships were fine. To use them you had to get close to the enemy. You were at constant risk of forge guns, swams and rails if you did. It took skill and balls. Now they are a waste of time.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1309	Posted - 2014.10.21 07:04:00 - [93] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cass Caul wrote: True Adamance wrote: I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. See the problem with that is, it would require something like not allowing the pilot to also use the large turret. And speaking of Missiles as AV. I haven't had a single issue with the past update effecting my Incubus. It did before and still does take out tanks. Oh, wait. That's right. It neither had nor lost a RoF bonus to the missile turrets I used. Fancy that, I could still kill a tank without the RoF bonus. Hardly. When I say have HAV work like tanks I'm talking about a fundamental re-designation of their roles making tanks give the perception that they are powerful vehicles worth having on the field. Basically this to me would require the following. - Re-designation of the roles of Turrets by making Large Turrets all adhere to the slow tracking high power weapons they should be. - Re-thinking the speed and handling of HAV to reduce their mobility to convey the idea of weight and inertia - Re-thinking how AV applies it damage to HAV. Currently vs most AV forms I feel invincible. I want AV to be more punchy and carry more weight. - Re-introduction of old modules. - To make the fitting process of HAV more akin to fitting Ships in EVE. Hull, Modules, Turrets all providing something worthwhile. Basically I want to suggest making tanks. Heavily Shielded/Armoured, Slow, Powerful Ordinance,Expensive, Customisable. maybe artificial limitations on large turret turning speed? because i have seen large turrets turning 10x faster then even i can turn on my feet.. they must use KB+m with high sensativity setting to get that kind of stupidly fast turn speed on the turret [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 268	Posted - 2014.10.21 07:12:00 - [94] - Quote Screaming for us hmm..i dont know majority of matee boyos actually agreed with nerf of DS ergo you will yell for minority of people who uses DS like noDS. "Ultimate Loggi, Pirmatar and fabulous Tinker since 2012"
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2922	Posted - 2014.10.21 07:29:00 - [95] - Quote And why is this different to the plasma cannon being neutered at birth? Your toy was just neutered at a later age. Suck it up Judge, suck it up. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 268	Posted - 2014.10.21 07:33:00 - [96] - Quote I remember how most of Vehicle boyos was like "HTFU" and all thats stuff before and they crying ven more about ADSs now. Its ridiclous, DROPSHIP=TAXI nothing else. If you want attacking flying thingies push CCP for release of jets/interceptors/attackships. "Ultimate Loggi, Pirmatar and fabulous Tinker since 2012"
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2058	Posted - 2014.10.21 07:34:00 - [97] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cass Caul wrote: True Adamance wrote: I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. See the problem with that is, it would require something like not allowing the pilot to also use the large turret. And speaking of Missiles as AV. I haven't had a single issue with the past update effecting my Incubus. It did before and still does take out tanks. Oh, wait. That's right. It neither had nor lost a RoF bonus to the missile turrets I used. Fancy that, I could still kill a tank without the RoF bonus. Hardly. When I say have HAV work like tanks I'm talking about a fundamental re-designation of their roles making tanks give the perception that they are powerful vehicles worth having on the field. Basically this to me would require the following. - Re-designation of the roles of Turrets by making Large Turrets all adhere to the slow tracking high power weapons they should be. - Re-thinking the speed and handling of HAV to reduce their mobility to convey the idea of weight and inertia - Re-thinking how AV applies it damage to HAV. Currently vs most AV forms I feel invincible. I want AV to be more punchy and carry more weight. - Re-introduction of old modules. - To make the fitting process of HAV more akin to fitting Ships in EVE. Hull, Modules, Turrets all providing something worthwhile. Basically I want to suggest making tanks. Heavily Shielded/Armoured, Slow, Powerful Ordinance,Expensive, Customisable. maybe artificial limitations on large turret turning speed? because i have seen large turrets turning 10x faster then even i can turn on my feet.. they must use KB+m with high sensativity setting to get that kind of stupidly fast turn speed on the turret Just to let you know, and this is from personal experience, KB/M does not grant additional turning speeds on any of the large turrets however it does allow you to turn faster when on foot @ high sensitivity. At least in my tanks, on a grounded large installation etc... the turn speed is the same as with DS3. Actually you could argue KB/M is slower as even on high sensitivity I have to keep dragging my mouse back and forth across the desk to even do a half turn lol. Also different suit sizes have different turn speeds, something you might not notice with DS3. Scouts can turn real fast, heavies actually cannot turn as fast as a scout for instance, the difference is quite noticeable with KB/M. I also believe a higher sensitivity option should be available for controller users should they want it. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 108	Posted - 2014.10.21 08:15:00 - [98] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: 1) A lot. Really. Lots 2) over 10 matches say 15 kills a match with a death every 3 matches. That's a 50 KDR- ish (in a dropship which I do not use all the time so game stats are not relational). P and L that is WORSE than a 39 000 ISK suit amarr assualt over the same match range, with a 10 kill per match rate and a 3 death per match. That amarr would have a 3.3 KDR Judge I would say your K/D is the exception rather than the rule for ADS pilots since you've always got Delboy saving your arse
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1395	Posted - 2014.10.21 08:34:00 - [99] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Yep, some things never change. This is how Dust514 has always been. Someone gets CCP's ear and everyone else gets the shaft. Vehicles too good and complex, 1.7 fixed that. HF D got ADS, why? Because AV got the ear. CCP Rattiti started out alright but he went from his initial claim that he would change things slowly and one (or a few) at a time then see how the changes turned out. Well, it seems to me that never happened once. The Hot Fixes adjust many things and when a Nerf is called for a Buff is handed to the opposition more often than not. See vehicles vs AV. 1.9 will be interesting. As in the Chinese curse sort of way. The only thing that I know for certain is this game is rarely better after they fix something. At least I didn't get silly and buy a hundred ADS at the new low price. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Kaughst Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 745	Posted - 2014.10.21 08:39:00 - [100] - Quote I see a dropship falling out of the sky I say...'there goes a drop ship'. "Why do we fight?" "To win the war." "Meh... Works for me."

TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1360	Posted - 2014.10.21 08:42:00 - [101] - Quote popcorn runs out The Incubus certainly needs a 'buff' most likely to the Overheat so that's not as much of an issue From recent games I have noticed that to keep an ADS in the air the squad have to work with it... How strange that must be for some... to have to work with a squad to clear their counter ??? If there is an AV infested point, the only involvement ADS should have is transporting infantry to get out clear the AV and allow the ADS to do it's job -- Now the 'Why can't I solo debate' ''Why can't I take an ADS to solo clear the AV infesting that point???'' - If the answer to this question is .. A. Because you must Git Gud B. Coz AV is mad OP C. That AV is meant to blow you up - stay away until they are engaged or cleared - One of those earns you a cookie. The ADS nerf is similar to flaylocks/nades/1.7 Vehicle modules etc. CCP **** up by making it crazy OP then to 'fix' it they take a hammer and beat it out of activity While this method is a pain, it does not essentially mean your ADS is doomed forever .. It has just been smashed from top of the food chain and not all for the worse either.. The only thing I would be concerned with CCP failing hard over is what they do now to the ADS Do they fix the few glaring issues, or give in to nostalgic Pilots who want their EZ games back??? Innapropriate Irrelevence...
iKILLu osborne Kirjuun Heiian 433	Posted - 2014.10.21 09:49:00 - [102] - Quote wow glad to see a cpm that isn't a kiss-ass, i honestly think the rof nerf was to harsh and should be brought back up to at least 5% per level. btw killar an ads role is to provide transportation, provide air support, clear rooftop links/campers (if av is present provide transport for paratroopers gasp teamwork 'o' ) hunt snipers, and assist in enemy vehicle destruction ('o' gasp that teamwork thing again) provide intel of enemy movement through comms. (yes some require skill) lp cal scout i demand it kirjuun heiian now recruiting cal loyalist
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1285	Posted - 2014.10.21 10:28:00 - [103] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. I normally don't disagree with you True but I was skimming the forums like I do but I had to sign in to ask you this , how are HAV's dominating infantry ??? If you don't have some form of AV by now , it's not CCP's fault ... they have provided the tools for the task and they work well . I forge ( I went toe to toe with a HAV on the ground , in a 4 m range ... granted he just tried to blaster me and clearly didn't adjust his tactic because he was in a tank ) HAV's with ease , I swarm them with ease and if anything , they might be a little underpowered but I digress because these are basic and standard products going against prototype materials for the most part , so when the next tier of vehicles arrive then the community could have a more true gage of the vehicle v.s. anti-vehicle dynamic . It's a little too early to claim dominance , you could have before the changes to the PG / CPU adjustments , mod changes or anti-vehicle enhancements , hell even NK's can slash a vehicle . I just don't agree with HAV's being overpowered , you could say that previously but not now and if infantry doesn't speck into anti-vehicle , then that's their problem . For those that do , it pays off and well might I add . I'm just shocked that this thinking comes from you of all people , making HAV's weaker is definitely not a way to help them feel like a tank . Infantry is the main factor and always will but HAV's should be able to defend themselves against infantry and not just by driving off , what are the defensive mods or the skill point investment for .?. and why have the option of numerous fits for vehicle's if none can help in the defense of them ??? If an infantry can stand in front of a HAV they should have some type of fear , not like it was when they killed the large blasters with the dispersion ... even for me , that was just wrong ... as much as I kill vehicle's I could not use that exploit and that's what it was because it made a tool ineffective . Not even moderately . One thing I can say about the hot fixes after FF was that , CCP has introduced more cause and effect in game , there is NO CLEAR CUT DEFINED FOTM ANYMORE and that has increased the dynamics of this game 100 fold . Now there is no clear cut " I win " button , the previous ADS firing rate was clear I win , 50% increase of fire rate was totally OP and just like the HAV's were OP and changes were made , the same came with and happened for ADS . Now for every cause , there is a reaction and mostly everything has a counter other then it's self . Not so much for scouts but that another story . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
steve0809 GamersForChrist 45	Posted - 2014.10.21 10:29:00 - [104] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you Post on your main if yer gonna be an ass. An ass I may be, but this IS my main!
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 622	Posted - 2014.10.21 10:32:00 - [105] - Quote We need a new, different variant on dropships. Call it a combat dropship or a 'gunship'. In the absence of jets, this can be the air-to-air and air-to-ground combat role. Just separate the troop transport from combat more clearly, so that people who want to engage in dropship combat can do so. Current assault dropships were/are badly defined. Hence the see-sawing 'balance'. The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1285	Posted - 2014.10.21 10:42:00 - [106] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: I honestly think the rof nerf was to harsh and should be brought back up to at least 5% per level. Let's try giving ground vehicle's a 5% ROF increase and see how well that goes ? I'm sure that LAV's could use that for one . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1285	Posted - 2014.10.21 10:48:00 - [107] - Quote Joel II X wrote: ROMULUS H3X wrote: Dropships are for transport..... everything else is just a bonus. Stop trying to fly around in the air like vegeta, destroying everything in your path... +1 for DBZ reference. Anywho, good luck, Judge. While I believe Swarms vs DS is okay, now, DS vs Anything is not. They lack both boom and running away. What they lack in one place (Running Away from swarms) should be dealt with the other (more boom). I still see ADS 's destroying HAV's and infantry , hell I blew up a few HAV's myself . I think it depends on the pilot and the squad , like it should ... there should not be a I win anymore else you will have an oversaturation of such like there was with scouts and heavies . Want boom , fit a damage mod and yes that would take an investment to make it fit accordingly but that should be said about any role . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1285	Posted - 2014.10.21 10:54:00 - [108] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: 20 mil in ads havent flown for 2 months. Cant wait til we get that respec im getting out of it so fast. Devs idea of an ads is decoration makes the battle look cooler like somethings actually going on. Shoot at it a couple times and get back to infantry fighting. thats IF they give us a respec tho i think it may just be a refund when Vehicle parity comes.. or it will be a big middle finger and an "FU no respec" You have more people fighting against a refund , so it seems ... find the backing and we can have it soon and not at the end of the game like some suggest , what good would that do .?. and to me would be a smack in the face . Get together and focus and we can get it done . Sure would solve a lot of problems . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1286	Posted - 2014.10.21 11:06:00 - [109] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: yadda yadda The whole being immune to 90% of the damage on the battlefield is also a falacy since every player has a free fit to deal with vehicles but choose not to use it. blah blah The militia swarm launcher is a bad joke, and the militia fit doesnt even have a navohive. An AV player cant do his pathetic sad job of not killing a vehicle all game and watching them fly away only to come back in 15 seconds at full health if they dont have nanohives. But its ok, like most swarmers he probably wont last long enough to notice. That's the problem , militia swarmer ( one ) should not just wreak ADS's , their basically advanced vehicles ( the only one currently ) and if you want to swarm , you should invest . You people just don't get it with militia talk involving people who invest in their role . I'll fit a militia swarmer for a month and still wreak , I have swarm to pro 3 and I swarm most games so I know what to do for the most part . Half of those who swarm do it wrong anyway if their not in a Commando suit , meaning ... they stand right out in the open and try to swarm , against using the environment to hide and movements to flank . Standing out in the open will get you killed , jump out of a HAV pilot or LAV driver , hell ... I get out of my derp and HMG players , I don't know what they think will happen when a dropship lands next to them . Just makes me wonder if people AV , with what they say . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 514	Posted - 2014.10.21 11:14:00 - [110] - Quote steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you Not unlike the other (every) member. It was no secret what Judge's main issue would be as CPM. Somebody needs to defend the ADS. If that must be one' splay style in order to give enough of a crap then great. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1419	Posted - 2014.10.21 11:16:00 - [111] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. ADS are no longer godmode. you actually need more then entry level SP to be good in an ADS. you need skill to fly. they were too OP but now they seem just right.. Honestly speaking, like in most threads you open your mouth in, you don't have a ***ing clue what you're talking about Za'ki. Assault dropships were never 'god mode'. Pilots who could pull insane KDR's with dropships were either some of the very best pilots around, or they were exploiting a bug. I can tell you don't know what you're talking about, because you seem to think that the 'anti-vehicle' dropship that was the incubus is in a good state when it cannot kill anything with the weapons it actually has a bonus to even with all level 5 skills. You get SEVEN shots off with a level 5 incubus, which isn't enough to drop the shields on most other vehicles. Of course you wouldn't know this because you've never *ing been in a vehicle. Vehicles currently have an even higher skillpoint investment, and significantly higher base cost per 'life' (and the average lifespan of a vehicle is about four minutes - for two to four matches worth of isk) for significantly less options or depth than an infantry player with comparable skillpoint investment. It has seemingly been decided by people who don't** use vehicles that their role should be solely anti-vehicle, when they aren't being a WP pi+¦ata for infantry. The absurd KDR's were mostly rarity for vehicles - people may scream LOUDLY about tanks and dropships getting 20-30 kills... but when a proto infantry player does it? Nothing is said at all - and I guarantee you it is far more common to get absurd scores as an infantry player than it is as a vehicle specialist. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 514	Posted - 2014.10.21 11:19:00 - [112] - Quote Immortal John Ripper wrote: Okay I am over the initial shock of the thread title and initial rant. Honestly Judge, I misJudged you. Yea pun intended. You were absent for a while but now I can tell that you are a passionate player. The abundance of (well made) drop ship videos didn't give it away? THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Gareth Verenar Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2014.10.21 11:30:00 - [113] - Quote Noticed Judge wasn't even complaining about AV How we'd get on that subjet again? Wasn't this about poor V-AV performance of small turrets on the ADS primarily vs HAVs?
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 90	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:02:00 - [114] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: yadda yadda The whole being immune to 90% of the damage on the battlefield is also a falacy since every player has a free fit to deal with vehicles but choose not to use it. blah blah The militia swarm launcher is a bad joke, and the militia fit doesnt even have a navohive. An AV player cant do his pathetic sad job of not killing a vehicle all game and watching them fly away only to come back in 15 seconds at full health if they dont have nanohives. But its ok, like most swarmers he probably wont last long enough to notice. That's the problem , militia swarmer ( one ) should not just wreak ADS's , their basically advanced vehicles ( the only one currently ) and if you want to swarm , you should invest . You people just don't get it with militia talk involving people who invest in their role . I'll fit a militia swarmer for a month and still wreak , I have swarm to proficiency and I swarm most games so I know what to do for the most part . Half of those who swarm do it wrong anyway if their not in a Commando suit , meaning ... they stand right out in the open and try to swarm , against using the environment to hide and movements to flank . Standing out in the open will get you killed , jump out of a HAV pilot or LAV driver , hell ... I get out of my derp and HMG players , I don't know what they think will happen when a dropship lands next to them . Just makes me wonder if people AV , with what they say . I've invested in my role, I have prototype forge guns & heavy. Im not sure what relevance anything you are saying has to a discussion of balance, what bad swarmers do doesnt mean much. Just like what bad ADS pilots do doesnt mean much. All I know is that at a reasonable level of skill, an ADS pilot in a one on one with AV is invincible unless they choose to risk death.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12749	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:08:00 - [115] - Quote The truth Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3970	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:09:00 - [116] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Hahaha, don't be silly... 45 is probably more accurate. Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: That's a 50 KDR- ish I was so close My advice to you, playa...
Foehammerr OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 89	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:11:00 - [117] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: The absurd KDR's were mostly rarity for vehicles - people may scream LOUDLY about tanks and dropships getting 20-30 kills... but when a proto infantry player does it? Nothing is said at all - and I guarantee you it is far more common to get absurd scores as an infantry player than it is as a vehicle specialist. This. I can easily pull that in my level 2 basic Gallente sentinel using basic HMGs and not even stack plates to do so. The same cannot be said for my vehicles, and I'm an above average pilot. However the two are mutually exclusive. I don't use heavies in vehicles and I find that exploit deplorable. *Rangers Lead The Way!* Beta Vet since 2/5/2013
NAV HIV The Generals 2157	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:12:00 - [118] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. It's just one more things that's useless... Cloaks and Scouts are garbage now... What is the point in all these ?! Everyone should just wear one suit and have one weapon and go at it... Scrubs just keep crying over random **** and CCP just cater to them... useless CPMs helps advocate those crybabies to get more "Likes" When a Commando can Track a Triple dampened Gal scout with the Proto Cloak on with Laser Rifle, It's called Balanced... These bunch of crybaby idiots ruined this game... Hot fix Alpha and Bravo was promising... Charlie onwards it went downhill...
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 560	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:17:00 - [119] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. I disagree. a lot... The missiles are fine, why should we destroy a tank or a standard dropship in 5 seconds? Is your problem with the Python missile bonus or also with the Incubus rail bonus, because I'll be honest, dropping a Python without overheating was kind of boring in my eyes... Now at least you have to think about when to fire instead of just holding the button down spraying everywhere. The small rail overheat is an issue, but the RoF is not, slower is more interesting as it gives people a chance to react. I've made some nice kills against vehicles and AV during Delta, swarms are still broken (but they have been since you called for a buff without telling them they needed fixing first) but all in all I quite like the way things are going. 5 minute fight is a massive exaggeration... Keep in mind if dropships are able to pew pew infantry, they will cry and then av will get another chuffing buff because "If you can kill fast, they need to be able to as well."
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3791	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:20:00 - [120] - Quote I've said it a dozen times in the past two months. AV vs. V is in a very good, balanced place for the most part. V vs. AV is not in a good place. Those of you who actually have the sense, sanity and intellect to follow that statement should start kicking the more obnoxious and noisy V/AV players in the ass and tell them to quit sabotaging any chance for parity. The more obnoxious and btchy we are the further off the priority list we fall. This means more than a few of us need to shut the hell up and support the ones who can present a thesis statement that doesnt carrt the tone of "What the f*k is wrong with you?" And no, shut it. I'm not just talking about vehicle drivers. I mean every AV gunner who'se attitude is "I have a weapon that can hurt you now, that means your role is WP pinata!" This argument has gone old, stale and once again is devolving into childish, entitled ranting as it inevitably does after a nerf/buff cycle. If you want to help, speak up. If you want to rant and accuse, get out. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 561	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:25:00 - [121] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: popcorn runs out ''Why can't I take an ADS to solo clear the AV infesting that point???'' - If the answer to this question is .. A. Because you must Git Gud B. Coz AV is mad OP C. That AV is meant to blow you up - stay away until they are engaged or cleared - One of those earns you a cookie. You forgot option D... Squash them with a Gorgon. T_____T He called me a scrub when I did that.
NAV HIV The Generals 2157	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:30:00 - [122] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I've said it a dozen times in the past two months. AV vs. V is in a very good, balanced place for the most part. V vs. AV is not in a good place. Those of you who actually have the sense, sanity and intellect to follow that statement should start kicking the more obnoxious and noisy V/AV players in the ass and tell them to quit sabotaging any chance for parity. The more obnoxious and btchy we are the further off the priority list we fall. This means more than a few of us need to shut the hell up and support the ones who can present a thesis statement that doesnt carrt the tone of "What the f*k is wrong with you?" And no, shut it. I'm not just talking about vehicle drivers. I mean every AV gunner who'se attitude is "I have a weapon that can hurt you now, that means your role is WP pinata!" This argument has gone old, stale and once again is devolving into childish, entitled ranting as it inevitably does after a nerf/buff cycle. If you want to help, speak up. If you want to rant and accuse, get out. It's been like that for more than two years.. Chromosome everything was powerful, AV and Vehicles, which worked out fine... After that, it's been V > AV or AV > V
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3793	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:36:00 - [123] - Quote And bluntly if we, the AV players who enjoy a violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles that is challenging and rewarding want to see those fights again, not the tug 'a war of superiority we need to start helping the vehicle drivers provide feedback that is more useful than "too powerful, needs nerfing." I used to log in for the joy of exploding vehicles. It's not as fun anymore. The vehicles feel less a threat and more a chore right now for me. Dunno how others feel. But I miss marauders in all of their horrible glory. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1363	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:39:00 - [124] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: TheD1CK wrote: popcorn runs out ''Why can't I take an ADS to solo clear the AV infesting that point???'' - If the answer to this question is .. A. Because you must Git Gud B. Coz AV is mad OP C. That AV is meant to blow you up - stay away until they are engaged or cleared - One of those earns you a cookie. You forgot option D... Squash them with a Gorgon. T_____T He called me a scrub when I did that. Shhhhh.. don't share the PRO scrub tactics Innapropriate Irrelevence...
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 561	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:42:00 - [125] - Quote True Adamance wrote: - Re-designation of the roles of Turrets by making Large Turrets all adhere to the slow tracking high power weapons they should be. I would like 1 of 2 things for tanks... Either make the turret manned by a second person, or just make the turrets facing independent of the tank, like the small turret on the back of an LAV... Then you'd have to think about positioning and where you're going, rather than just " hey something drove past me, quick 180 and boom! it's dead." The second option is better as it makes small turrets more useful, whereas the first option puts the final nail in the coffin for them.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3972	Posted - 2014.10.21 14:50:00 - [126] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I used to log in for the joy of exploding vehicles. It's not as fun anymore. The vehicles feel less a threat and more a chore right now for me. Dunno how others feel. But I miss marauders in all of their horrible glory. I could argue that you are a seasoned AV player who has been wrecking vehicles since Moses wore short-shorts. Your feelings can't be used to judge the overall feeling of AV. My advice to you, playa...
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3359	Posted - 2014.10.21 17:52:00 - [127] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I've said it a dozen times in the past two months. AV vs. V is in a very good, balanced place for the most part. V vs. AV is not in a good place. Those of you who actually have the sense, sanity and intellect to follow that statement should start kicking the more obnoxious and noisy V/AV players in the ass and tell them to quit sabotaging any chance for parity. The more obnoxious and btchy we are the further off the priority list we fall. This means more than a few of us need to shut the hell up and support the ones who can present a thesis statement that doesnt carry the tone of "What the f*k is wrong with you?" And no, shut it. I'm not just talking about vehicle drivers. I mean every AV gunner who'se attitude is "I have a weapon that can hurt you now, that means your role is WP pinata!" This argument has gone old, stale and once again is devolving into childish, entitled ranting as it inevitably does after a nerf/buff cycle. If you want to help, speak up. If you want to rant and accuse, get out. Look, I can see what DSes, HAVs, LAVs, FGs, AV nades, REs, PMs, PLCs, and SLs are supposed to do, but ADSes only one person has tried to define and poorly at that, so what are ADSes suppoed to do? AV or Infantry? Suppression or Attack? http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
Cass Caul 1252	Posted - 2014.10.21 18:21:00 - [128] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Also different suit sizes have different turn speeds, something you might not notice with DS3. Scouts can turn real fast, heavies actually cannot turn as fast as a scout for instance, the difference is quite noticeable with KB/M. I also believe a higher sensitivity option should be available for controller users should they want it. LOL, dude.This is false. Turn radius is based on X-axis sensitivity. It's in the patch notes from either Uprising 1.1 or Uprising 1.2 when they did away with Frame size determining turn speed. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Cass Caul 1253	Posted - 2014.10.21 18:50:00 - [129] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: And bluntly if we, the AV players who enjoy a violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles that is challenging and rewarding want to see those fights again, not the tug 'a war of superiority we need to start helping the vehicle drivers provide feedback that is more useful than "too powerful, needs nerfing." I used to log in for the joy of exploding vehicles. It's not as fun anymore. The vehicles feel less a threat and more a chore right now for me. Dunno how others feel. But I miss marauders in all of their horrible glory. So, your idea of Vehicle vs Anit-Vehicle balance should be wholly determined through who is more obstinate. Vehicles all have much improved acceleration than when Marauders existed. So long as something can zip in an zip out of a conflict zone that isn't going to happen The part where "ADS's are OP" comes from is their ability to 2-3 shot most suits with missiles (entirely because of splash damage) and as soon as they start taking fire they just leave. Then they set upon for another section of the map and rain down fire from above unimpeded. Again: Missiles vs Infantry are overpowered as ** and it's directly due to splash damage. Swarms VS ADS did sit in a nice "Thunderdome" style balance where if they fought to the death only 1 would come out. But that rarely happened because Vehicles are no longer forced into that situation. They can disengage from combat with far too much ease. Alright. after last update. Maybe not "far too much" as the cooldown on afterburners means the pilot actually needs to be paying attention to their modules your desired " violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles" isn't a possibility as long as they have the mobility that they do. @Killer-12, What should an ADS's role be? They should be at the zenith of hit-and-run tactics. They shouldn't have the HP to tank damage like an HAV (be it active or passive). They shouldn't have bonuses to turrets that allow their small turret to outperform large turrets. They should perform against roof-top forgers as they do now. Swoop in, take out nanohive and uplinks, and come back later. Battle of attrition to kill the FG'ers. wait till their ammo is gone and take them out. If the pilot is dumb enough to let it happen, a full clip from a forge gun should kill them, even with modules active. If any of you guys playing in PC before the Flaylock got nerfed, imagine how InsidiousN played. He had dual Core Flaylocks. His primary activity was going around and taking out EQ. He was in a Scout suit so if he got caught he was in deep **. However, if he spotted them first, using that OP weapon, he would take them out. This was before cloaks, before team-shared-LoS scans were taken out, before scouts had their 6th module slot restored The ADS shouldn't be looking for direct confrontation. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1288	Posted - 2014.10.21 19:44:00 - [130] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: I've invested in my role, I have prototype forge guns & heavy. Im not sure what relevance anything you are saying has to a discussion of balance, what bad swarmers do doesnt mean much. Just like what bad ADS pilots do doesnt mean much. All I know is that at a reasonable level of skill, an ADS pilot in a one on one with AV is invincible unless they choose to risk death. I'm talking about your militia comment obviously and if you have such an investment then why mention militia.?. , like your trying to make some type of point of comparison , that's what I'm talking about . An ADS pilot should be invincible in a one on one with a single AV unless they risk death , they have a much greater advantage in mobility if their skilled like you mentioned but also like you mentioned , it should depend upon the skill and weapon used by each . Why risk death when you already have a tactical advantage ? That would just be greedy and foolish when I'm sure as a pilot , there are many targets that would need the same amount of attention that would have been given to that one player and would prove to be of more value . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .

Symbioticforks Pure Evil. Capital Punishment. 850	Posted - 2014.10.21 19:59:00 - [131] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You should have spearheaded sniping the way I honestly thought you were going to. Iron Wolf Saber should never have been re-elected. The range nerf, over the top headshot damage, almost nothing base damage increases, and random unalterable unasked for sight changes to the sniper rifles, not to mention clip size tom'fuckery. Have got me really upset. This isn't the same game anymore. I can't have a drink relax and snipe to my hearts content when I'm constantly being choked by invisible lines. Giving even more of the people on the map "god mode from snipers". The one thing that hasn't changed is snipers being nerfed. Sniping with 10% damage mods, and 600m range. Bring it back! (giving back old sniping spots will not remedy this situation) I hate to say it, but now you know how the sniper community feels. Your bread and butter has been put somewhere between niche and useless. Good luck fixing the mediocrity that was your favorite thing and main reason for staying with Dust 514. Sniping Dust 514 (video series)
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3360	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:01:00 - [132] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: And bluntly if we, the AV players who enjoy a violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles that is challenging and rewarding want to see those fights again, not the tug 'a war of superiority we need to start helping the vehicle drivers provide feedback that is more useful than "too powerful, needs nerfing." I used to log in for the joy of exploding vehicles. It's not as fun anymore. The vehicles feel less a threat and more a chore right now for me. Dunno how others feel. But I miss marauders in all of their horrible glory. So, your idea of Vehicle vs Anit-Vehicle balance should be wholly determined through who is more obstinate. Vehicles all have much improved acceleration than when Marauders existed. So long as something can zip in an zip out of a conflict zone that isn't going to happen The part where "ADS's are OP" comes from is their ability to 2-3 shot most suits with missiles (entirely because of splash damage) and as soon as they start taking fire they just leave. Then they set upon for another section of the map and rain down fire from above unimpeded. Again: Missiles vs Infantry are overpowered as ** and it's directly due to splash damage. Swarms VS ADS did sit in a nice "Thunderdome" style balance where if they fought to the death only 1 would come out. But that rarely happened because Vehicles are no longer forced into that situation. They can disengage from combat with far too much ease. Alright. after last update. Maybe not "far too much" as the cooldown on afterburners means the pilot actually needs to be paying attention to their modules your desired " violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles" isn't a possibility as long as they have the mobility that they do. @Killer-12, What should an ADS's role be? They should be at the zenith of hit-and-run tactics. They shouldn't have the HP to tank damage like an HAV (be it active or passive). They shouldn't have bonuses to turrets that allow their small turret to outperform large turrets. They should perform against roof-top forgers as they do now. Swoop in, take out nanohive and uplinks, and come back later. Battle of attrition to kill the FG'ers. wait till their ammo is gone and take them out. If the pilot is dumb enough to let it happen, a full clip from a forge gun should kill them, even with modules active. If any of you guys playing in PC before the Flaylock got nerfed, imagine how InsidiousN played. He had dual Core Flaylocks. His primary activity was going around and taking out EQ. He was in a Scout suit so if he got caught he was in deep **. However, if he spotted them first, using that OP weapon, he would take them out. This was before cloaks, before team-shared-LoS scans were taken out, before scouts had their 6th module slot restored The ADS shouldn't be looking for direct confrontation. I know about Core Flaylocks... I was playing PC back in the day, do you remeber when EoN and LoI banned them in the Weekend war and Fused Nades? http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 236	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:01:00 - [133] - Quote Symbioticforks wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You should have spearheaded sniping the way I honestly thought you were going to. Iron Wolf Saber should never have been re-elected. The range nerf, over the top headshot damage, almost nothing base damage increases, and random unalterable unasked for sight changes to the sniper rifles, not to mention clip size tom'fuckery. Have got me really upset. This isn't the same game anymore. I can't have a drink relax and snipe to my hearts content when I'm constantly being choked by invisible lines. Giving even more of the people on the map "god mode from snipers". The one thing that hasn't changed is snipers being nerfed. Sniping with 10% damage mods, and 600m range. Bring it back! (giving back old sniping spots will not remedy this situation) I hate to say it, but now you know how the sniper community feels. Your bread and butter has been put somewhere between niche and useless. Good luck fixing the mediocrity that was your favorite thing and main reason for staying with Dust 514. The old snipers are unchanged in the lp store. Same range, same damage, same clip size. Not sure how long theyll last.
Cass Caul 1257	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:13:00 - [134] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: I know about Core Flaylocks... I was playing PC back in the day, do you remeber when EoN and LoI banned them in the Weekend war and Fused Nades? Yeah, I remember that. As I was in those fights... It was. . . disappointing for me. The Flaylock was my best (and really only) defense against dropships. Be them ADSs which were basically for faster transport or clearing snipers and regular dropships that wanted to land on my head. It was a nerf to Gem Cutter who would use the Core Flaylock to kill anyone that was trying to hack the point we would snipe from. It ******* sucked for Shilzy, That was his go-to weapon. He didn't have another proto one so the "deal" basically said one of our most frequent players couldn't participate in PC. sigh Flaylock is still useless. . . in the same way the Python is still useless. All I want is to destabalize those ******* pilots trying to shoot/squish me. All Rhada wants to do is take out HAVs with missiles. lol, p.s. Dropships should be good at kill tanks, only for the fact that they basically get to go "neener neener neener you can't touch me." On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13719	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:17:00 - [135] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Killar-12 wrote: I know about Core Flaylocks... I was playing PC back in the day, do you remeber when EoN and LoI banned them in the Weekend war and Fused Nades? Yeah, I remember that. As I was in those fights... It was. . . disappointing for me. The Flaylock was my best (and really only) defense against dropships. Be them ADSs which were basically for faster transport or clearing snipers and regular dropships that wanted to land on my head. It was a nerf to Gem Cutter who would use the Core Flaylock to kill anyone that was trying to hack the point we would snipe from. It ******* sucked for Shilzy, That was his go-to weapon. He didn't have another proto one so the "deal" basically said one of our most frequent players couldn't participate in PC. sigh Flaylock is still useless. . . in the same way the Python is still useless. All I want is to destabalize those ******* pilots trying to shoot/squish me. All Rhada wants to do is take out HAVs with missiles. lol, p.s. Dropships should be good at kill tanks, only for the fact that they basically get to go "neener neener neener you can't touch me." If ADS aren't doing that what is? I spend 10 out of 15 mins in a skirmish laughing my ass off at infantry who think AV actually works. Now that ADS cannot police my actions on the field I can literally be anywhere I want to be with impunity. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 517	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:51:00 - [136] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: yadda yadda The whole being immune to 90% of the damage on the battlefield is also a falacy since every player has a free fit to deal with vehicles but choose not to use it. blah blah The militia swarm launcher is a bad joke, and the militia fit doesnt even have a navohive. An AV player cant do his pathetic sad job of not killing a vehicle all game and watching them fly away only to come back in 15 seconds at full health if they dont have nanohives. But its ok, like most swarmers he probably wont last long enough to notice. That's the problem , militia swarmer ( one ) should not just wreak ADS's , their basically advanced vehicles ( the only one currently ) and if you want to swarm , you should invest . You people just don't get it with militia talk involving people who invest in their role . I'll fit a militia swarmer for a month and still wreak , I have swarm to proficiency and I swarm most games so I know what to do for the most part . Half of those who swarm do it wrong anyway if their not in a Commando suit , meaning ... they stand right out in the open and try to swarm , against using the environment to hide and movements to flank . Standing out in the open will get you killed , jump out of a HAV pilot or LAV driver , hell ... I get out of my derp and HMG players , I don't know what they think will happen when a dropship lands next to them . Just makes me wonder if people AV , with what they say . I've invested in my role, I have prototype forge guns & heavy. Im not sure what relevance anything you are saying has to a discussion of balance, what bad swarmers do doesnt mean much. Just like what bad ADS pilots do doesnt mean much. All I know is that at a reasonable level of skill, an ADS pilot in a one on one with AV is invincible unless they choose to risk death. Lol no, swarms are tearing up an ADS, both shields and armor with the first shot. I'd like to see any ADS pilot take that out before going down. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 517	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:56:00 - [137] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: And bluntly if we, the AV players who enjoy a violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles that is challenging and rewarding want to see those fights again, not the tug 'a war of superiority we need to start helping the vehicle drivers provide feedback that is more useful than "too powerful, needs nerfing." I used to log in for the joy of exploding vehicles. It's not as fun anymore. The vehicles feel less a threat and more a chore right now for me. Dunno how others feel. But I miss marauders in all of their horrible glory. So, your idea of Vehicle vs Anit-Vehicle balance should be wholly determined through who is more obstinate. Vehicles all have much improved acceleration than when Marauders existed. So long as something can zip in an zip out of a conflict zone that isn't going to happen The part where "ADS's are OP" comes from is their ability to 2-3 shot most suits with missiles (entirely because of splash damage) and as soon as they start taking fire they just leave. Then they set upon for another section of the map and rain down fire from above unimpeded. Again: Missiles vs Infantry are overpowered as ** and it's directly due to splash damage. Swarms VS ADS did sit in a nice "Thunderdome" style balance where if they fought to the death only 1 would come out. But that rarely happened because Vehicles are no longer forced into that situation. They can disengage from combat with far too much ease. Alright. after last update. Maybe not "far too much" as the cooldown on afterburners means the pilot actually needs to be paying attention to their modules your desired " violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles" isn't a possibility as long as they have the mobility that they do. @Killer-12, What should an ADS's role be? They should be at the zenith of hit-and-run tactics. They shouldn't have the HP to tank damage like an HAV (be it active or passive). They shouldn't have bonuses to turrets that allow their small turret to outperform large turrets. They should perform against roof-top forgers as they do now. Swoop in, take out nanohive and uplinks, and come back later. Battle of attrition to kill the FG'ers. wait till their ammo is gone and take them out. If the pilot is dumb enough to let it happen, a full clip from a forge gun should kill them, even with modules active. If any of you guys playing in PC before the Flaylock got nerfed, imagine how InsidiousN played. He had dual Core Flaylocks. His primary activity was going around and taking out EQ. He was in a Scout suit so if he got caught he was in deep **. However, if he spotted them first, using that OP weapon, he would take them out. This was before cloaks, before team-shared-LoS scans were taken out, before scouts had their 6th module slot restored The ADS shouldn't be looking for direct confrontation. You go near any activity on the map with a dropship and you are getting pummeled now by a swarm if not a forger. There can't be any hot and run with that kind of acrion. The third swarm shot is hitting my ship when I flown well out of range. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Cass Caul 1258	Posted - 2014.10.21 21:10:00 - [138] - Quote Operative 1125 Lokaas wrote: [ You go near any activity on the map with a dropship and you are getting pummeled now by a swarm if not a forger. There can't be any hot and run with that kind of acrion. The third swarm shot is hitting my ship when I have flown well out of range. Hmm, really? That's strange. I've got an Incubus and Python and my experience hasn't been like that at all. Have you been looking for the AV people before you swoop in. Swarm users are easy to take out. They're either on the ground and inhibited by buldings and whatnot or they're up high and easy targets. Boost in on a direct collision course, once in range 3 missiles kills them (as I said, missilebus FTW) while they can't get off a full clip. because initial lock-on time is kinda annoying given that their range is so short. On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3821	Posted - 2014.10.21 21:16:00 - [139] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: So, your idea of Vehicle vs Anit-Vehicle balance should be wholly determined through who is more obstinate. Vehicles all have much improved acceleration than when Marauders existed. So long as something can zip in an zip out of a conflict zone that isn't going to happen The part where "ADS's are OP" comes from is their ability to 2-3 shot most suits with missiles (entirely because of splash damage) and as soon as they start taking fire they just leave. Then they set upon for another section of the map and rain down fire from above unimpeded. Again: Missiles vs Infantry are overpowered as **** and it's directly due to splash damage. Swarms VS ADS did sit in a nice "Thunderdome" style balance where if they fought to the death only 1 would come out. But that rarely happened because Vehicles are no longer forced into that situation. They can disengage from combat with far too much ease. Alright. after last update. Maybe not "far too much" as the cooldown on afterburners means the pilot actually needs to be paying attention to their modules your desired " violent, white-knuckle firefight with vehicles" isn't a possibility as long as they have the mobility that they do. You're inferring quite a lot from a rather straightforward statement. Here's a hint: If I do not say it DIRECTLY, you may safely assume i don't give a crap what might be inferred in my intent. My intent is directly stated. I want more challenging fights versus vehicles. Right now I feel like a mugger in a geriatric ward. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 69	Posted - 2014.10.21 21:58:00 - [140] - Quote Welcome back Judge, I am very glad you are back. Fight for that that is right, that should be corrected. I fully support you. Amarr Victor

DELB0Y 65	Posted - 2014.10.22 14:45:00 - [141] - Quote Welcome back Judge, missed you dude. You give up our position one more time, I'll bleed you, real quiet, and leave you here. Got that?
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 569	Posted - 2014.10.22 15:25:00 - [142] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I used to log in for the joy of exploding vehicles. It's not as fun anymore. The vehicles feel less a threat and more a chore right now for me. Dunno how others feel. But I miss marauders in all of their horrible glory. I could argue that you are a seasoned AV player who has been wrecking vehicles since Moses wore short-shorts. Your feelings can't be used to judge the overall feeling of AV. So we're pitting nooby AV vs Seasoned Pilots for balance? That sounds fair. Example my father decided he wanted to pilot because he saw me flying one... The point being he can't hit bugger all and doesn't always know which direction he's moving in... He's a little better a few months on, but he still struggles to hit a stationary target and his landing usually ends in death... Killar-12 wrote: Look, I can see what DSes, HAVs, LAVs, FGs, AV nades, REs, PMs, PLCs, and SLs are supposed to do, but ADSes only one person has tried to define and poorly at that, so what are ADSes suppoed to do? AV or Infantry? Suppression or Attack? Suppression covers it pretty much, stops people running out in the open while they're flying about. A good Forge gunner got the job done before Charlie, but because no one else wanted to spec into something that didn't allow them to free-farm (hi scouts and heavys that get just as good K/D as ads) swarms got buffed so non skilled AV becomes worthless & there's no longer an AV/V battle instead it's either V farms infantry or AV farms V. No strategy, no struggle, just I win or you win & mine costs less. Vehicles out in the open you suppress them back into the red zone or somewhere they can cover, or when a decent missile tanker is about (rare) it's just until you maneuver to a shot on the dropship and then game over. Why is there a limit of 5 vehicles? If no one bothers to bring any out anymore. There's why infantry got farmed, no one ever brings out enough vehicles on both teams to create an actual vehicle battle... So the vehicles find something else to do (& frankly I find farming infantry with a vehicle to be boring as hell... so give someone a reason to pull a vehicle against me!!!)
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5333	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:38:00 - [143] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. While playing with Arkena Wyrnspire the other day, he made the good point that if a weapon system requires a 10% per level bonus from the asset that uses it just to be useful, there's something very wrong with the weapon itself. Rather than increase the RoF bonus, I think that Missile turrets should have their own RoF looked at, since they weren't really a threat on anything but an ADS before, and now can only hit people that are oblivious to the fact that they're getting shot at. Personally, I would also like to see Turret variants brought back into the game. While the current missiles seem reasonable for killing infantry given that in most cases you can drop a suit in one shot, they are completely worthless against vehicles. A higher RoF missile with very little splash damage could help the Python be useful against vehicles again. However, I would like to point out that the Incubus with a Small Railgun suddenly feels amazing. Even with the bonus reduced so far, the changes made to Small Rails mean that I can drop a Soma in a single magazine, and I've been working on improving my aim so I can go back to killing tanks. OR As an alternate to bringing back Turret variants, CCP could bring back the Particle Cannons that the Gallente used to have back in Replication and the E3 build. For those of you who weren't here, those had higher direct damage than railguns with practically zero splash damage. If those were returned, we could have the Python gain a bonus to Small Railguns, and the Incubus gain a bonus to Particle Cannons. That would give both aircraft the means to fill an AV role. Also, Small Blasters need more dispersion on Dropships. Right now you can't land a shot unless that tiny dot in the middle of the spread circle is directly on your target, at least if you're using them via the nosegun of an ADS. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1795	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:57:00 - [144] - Quote Disclaimer: I am not a ADS pilot. Personally, I think ADS are fine (or even a bit OP) against infantry. I think their AA and AV strength needs a buff, however.
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5334	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:32:00 - [145] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Disclaimer: I am not a ADS pilot. Personally, I think ADS are fine (or even a bit OP) against infantry. I think their AA and AV strength needs a buff, however. This is an example of why we need variants of Turrets or more Turret options. Right now a Python is pretty much worthless against vehicles. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Cass Caul 1276	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:46:00 - [146] - Quote . . . did any of you see Rattati's "post Delta Dropships" post? Python is very strong. Myron sucks Grimsnes is good Incubus is alright. "something" needs to change on the Incubus. Myron needs a few tweaks. Either way, you'll never find a pilot with maxed out turrets destroying less isk than the cost of their ship On Hiatus. This is my smartphone alt
darkiller240 K-A-O-S theory 819	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:29:00 - [147] - Quote WHAT! CCP nerfed the ADS, AGAIN!!! I seriously didn't see that coming, no way near the reason i left Dust 7 months ago
General Mosquito Kinsho Swords Caldari State 14	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:45:00 - [148] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You killed tanks, which gave your precious dropships free reign. What did you think was going to happen? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Pushing Charlie Elite Intergalactic Mercenaries 311	Posted - 2014.10.22 20:46:00 - [149] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: steve0809 wrote: And a CPM member that only cares about his own play style and screw the rest ? I am sorry I voted for you i guess my cloak video bug missed you, or my one about how under powered swarms were, or the one about how dropships should be for transport, or how I tried to encoraged tankers out the redline, or how I was vocal about autoaim or strafeing..... Congratulations on being there to point out the blatantly obvious, seriously. Knight Soiaire I BELIEVE!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13743	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:02:00 - [150] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: As an alternate to bringing back Turret variants, CCP could bring back the Particle Cannons that the Gallente used to have back in Replication and the E3 build. For those of you who weren't here, those had higher direct damage than railguns with practically zero splash damage. If those were returned, we could have the Python gain a bonus to Small Railguns, and the Incubus gain a bonus to Particle Cannons. That would give both aircraft the means to fill an AV role. Also, Small Blasters need more dispersion on Dropships. Right now you can't land a shot unless that tiny dot in the middle of the spread circle is directly on your target, at least if you're using them via the nosegun of an ADS. EW speak not about these Particle Cannon. Never. I will never allow put wussy ass cannon by put on any tank ever! "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 627	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:16:00 - [151] - Quote So it turns out you are just another *** that whines then their ** is nerfed. Just like the rest of us. You have been Judged.... Swag-suit4lyfe!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4682	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:34:00 - [152] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. A lot of righteous indignation from a CPM member who was AWAL when he was needed most. Rattati needed to change the bonus because having a turret fire 50% faster on one platform than any other made it too difficult to balance, as balancing small turrets on HAVGÇÖs, LAVGÇÖs, and standard Dropships would make them OP on ADS; and balancing them on ADS would make them UP on other platforms. He was not able to get any constructive feedback from the ADS community, so he overnerfed them to insure that he would get plenty of feedback for the next balance pass. So fare his strategy seems to be working. I have seen a lot more analysis and creative ideas out of the ADS community since. Now that you are back, maybe you can coordinate all that and come up with a proper fix. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 851	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:04:00 - [153] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cass Caul wrote: True Adamance wrote: I would also like to talk vehicle balance.....more specifically making HAV feel like tanks and not having them continue to dominate infantry like they continue to do. ....unfortunately not able to make it to the console as of the moment. See the problem with that is, it would require something like not allowing the pilot to also use the large turret. And speaking of Missiles as AV. I haven't had a single issue with the past update effecting my Incubus. It did before and still does take out tanks. Oh, wait. That's right. It neither had nor lost a RoF bonus to the missile turrets I used. Fancy that, I could still kill a tank without the RoF bonus. Hardly. When I say have HAV work like tanks I'm talking about a fundamental re-designation of their roles making tanks give the perception that they are powerful vehicles worth having on the field. Basically this to me would require the following. - Re-designation of the roles of Turrets by making Large Turrets all adhere to the slow tracking high power weapons they should be. - Re-thinking the speed and handling of HAV to reduce their mobility to convey the idea of weight and inertia - Re-thinking how AV applies it damage to HAV. Currently vs most AV forms I feel invincible. I want AV to be more punchy and carry more weight. - Re-introduction of old modules. - To make the fitting process of HAV more akin to fitting Ships in EVE. Hull, Modules, Turrets all providing something worthwhile. Basically I want to suggest making tanks. Heavily Shielded/Armoured, Slow, Powerful Ordinance,Expensive, Customisable. maybe artificial limitations on large turret turning speed? because i have seen large turrets turning 10x faster then even i can turn on my feet.. they must use KB+m with high sensativity setting to get that kind of stupidly fast turn speed on the turret Just to let you know, and this is from personal experience, KB/M does not grant additional turning speeds on any of the large turrets however it does allow you to turn faster when on foot @ high sensitivity. At least in my tanks, on a grounded large installation etc... the turn speed is the same as with DS3. Actually you could argue KB/M is slower as even on high sensitivity I have to keep dragging my mouse back and forth across the desk to even do a half turn lol. Also different suit sizes have different turn speeds, something you might not notice with DS3. Scouts can turn real fast, heavies actually cannot turn as fast as a scout for instance, the difference is quite noticeable with KB/M. I also believe a higher sensitivity option should be available for controller users should they want it. Don't we all turn at same speed now?
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2312	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:22:00 - [154] - Quote Judge is bringing the gavel. Welcome back, I hope you've looked at the latest discussion over in the Development Archive. It might be a good idea to start you own "official" discussion over in FB/D with whatever you're thinking of proposing/ your thoughts on the matter. I definitely have some ideas I'd like to spitball. Dust was there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2221	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:47:00 - [155] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You killed tanks, which gave your precious dropships free reign. What did you think was going to happen? LOL Thank you for that. He had railgun range cut in half, insanely mostly by himself. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1007	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:51:00 - [156] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. Hell. Yes. Our glorious leader is back o7 The Incubus is Broken Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 1007	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:55:00 - [157] - Quote Sir Snugglz wrote: LMAO, what happened???? you were so pro to all the changes after I stated the downfall when the nerfs began.I don't mind any changes, but someone posted a video on how investing points into the RoF bonus hindered the incubus because it increased the rate of heating lowing the amount of shots on the rail before overheating. Never confirmed if it was true but the video looks legit. Um, yeah that video was legit, thanks The Incubus is Broken Judge Rhadamanthus is my Hero
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2221	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:26:00 - [158] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. A lot of righteous indignation from a CPM member who was AWAL when he was needed most. Rattati needed to change the bonus because having a turret fire 50% faster on one platform than any other made it too difficult to balance, as balancing small turrets on HAVGÇÖs, LAVGÇÖs, and standard Dropships would make them OP on ADS; and balancing them on ADS would make them UP on other platforms. He was not able to get any constructive feedback from the ADS community, so he overnerfed them to insure that he would get plenty of feedback for the next balance pass. So fare his strategy seems to be working. I have seen a lot more analysis and creative ideas out of the ADS community since. Now that you are back, maybe you can coordinate all that and come up with a proper fix. What are you talking about? He didn't take any feedback from any ADS pilot, no matter how long they've been flying. He said he had the sole decision. That's means he didn't take any feedback. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2221	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:29:00 - [159] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: . . . did any of you see Rattati's "post Delta Dropships" post? Python is very strong. Myron sucks Grimsnes is good Incubus is alright. "something" needs to change on the Incubus. Myron needs a few tweaks. Either way, you'll never find a pilot with maxed out turrets destroying less isk than the cost of their ship Python is strong? What are you talking about? A forge can 3-shot any Python. That's solo. Get 2 people double teaming with PRO breach, and nothing will survive. There's few vehicles that will survive a pair of PRO breach forge guns. But those require aim, and that's too hard. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2221	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:34:00 - [160] - Quote Symbioticforks wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You should have spearheaded sniping the way I honestly thought you were going to. Iron Wolf Saber should never have been re-elected. The range nerf, over the top headshot damage, almost nothing base damage increases, and random unalterable unasked for sight changes to the sniper rifles, not to mention clip size tom'fuckery. Have got me really upset. This isn't the same game anymore. I can't have a drink relax and snipe to my hearts content when I'm constantly being choked by invisible lines. Giving even more of the people on the map "god mode from snipers". The one thing that hasn't changed is snipers being nerfed. Sniping with 10% damage mods, and 600m range. Bring it back! (giving back old sniping spots will not remedy this situation) I hate to say it, but now you know how the sniper community feels. Your bread and butter has been put somewhere between niche and useless. Good luck fixing the mediocrity that was your favorite thing and main reason for staying with Dust 514. Ask him about the time I shot down his Incubus after the tank nerf, and then he and his whole squad left the battle. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2221	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:38:00 - [161] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not. ADS are no longer godmode. you actually need more then entry level SP to be good in an ADS. you need skill to fly. they were too OP but now they seem just right.. Honestly speaking, like in most threads you open your mouth in, you don't have a ***ing clue what you're talking about Za'ki. Assault dropships were never 'god mode'. Pilots who could pull insane KDR's with dropships were either some of the very best pilots around, or they were exploiting a bug. I can tell you don't know what you're talking about, because you seem to think that the 'anti-vehicle' dropship that was the incubus is in a good state when it cannot kill anything with the weapons it actually has a bonus to even with all level 5 skills. You get SEVEN shots off with a level 5 incubus, which isn't enough to drop the shields on most other vehicles. Of course you wouldn't know this because you've never *ing been in a vehicle. Vehicles currently have an even higher skillpoint investment than infantry and significantly higher base cost per 'life' (and the average lifespan of a vehicle is about four minutes - for two to four matches worth of isk) for significantly less options or depth than an infantry player with comparable skillpoint investment. It has seemingly been decided by people who don't** use vehicles that their role should be solely anti-vehicle, when they aren't being a WP pi+¦ata for infantry. The absurd KDR's were mostly rarity for vehicles - people may scream LOUDLY about tanks and dropships getting 20-30 kills... but when a proto infantry player does it? Nothing is said at all - and I guarantee you it is far more common to get absurd scores as an infantry player than it is as a vehicle specialist. It's been like that for 2 years and counting. I've pointed out so many times the insanity that the people that DON'T use vehicles get to decide on the nerfs that will happen to vehicles. Also too often at the same time, AV in some way gets a buff. I remember when they were changing swarms due to the after-fire, when you couldn't do anything after firing a volley, pilots of both stripes worked out that swarms would do around 7000 damage with full proficiencies in just a few seconds. Infantry didn't care. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2221	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:40:00 - [162] - Quote Foehammerr wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: The absurd KDR's were mostly rarity for vehicles - people may scream LOUDLY about tanks and dropships getting 20-30 kills... but when a proto infantry player does it? Nothing is said at all - and I guarantee you it is far more common to get absurd scores as an infantry player than it is as a vehicle specialist. This. I can easily pull that in my level 2 basic Gallente sentinel using basic HMGs and not even stack plates to do so. The same cannot be said for my vehicles, and I'm an above average pilot. However the two are mutually exclusive. I don't use heavies in vehicles and I find that exploit deplorable. Lol you think it's an exploit to be able to use any suit while driving a vehicle? You're crazy I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
MEDICO RITARDATO Dead Man's Game RUST415 303	Posted - 2014.10.23 17:07:00 - [163] - Quote #CRYBABYTHREAD Now give me likes. CCP why do you hate shield?
jace silencerww Second-Nature 64	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:02:00 - [164] - Quote Symbioticforks wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You should have spearheaded sniping the way I honestly thought you were going to. Iron Wolf Saber should never have been re-elected. The range nerf, over the top headshot damage, almost nothing base damage increases, and random unalterable unasked for sight changes to the sniper rifles, not to mention clip size tom'fuckery. Have got me really upset. This isn't the same game anymore. I can't have a drink relax and snipe to my hearts content when I'm constantly being choked by invisible lines. Giving even more of the people on the map "god mode from snipers". The one thing that hasn't changed is snipers being nerfed. Sniping with 10% damage mods, and 600m range. Bring it back! (giving back old sniping spots will not remedy this situation) I hate to say it, but now you know how the sniper community feels. Your bread and butter has been put somewhere between niche and useless. Good luck fixing the mediocrity that was your favorite thing and main reason for staying with Dust 514. ^I agree. lol funny thing if you have a caldari commando with 3 damage mods max proficiency using a charge sniper rifle what dropsuit can live after a headshot? can a full ehp amarr & gall sentinel live? shields 523, armor 1344 is the amarr now the gall 633 shields, armor 1102.
Moochie Cricket Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 790	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:12:00 - [165] - Quote Everything about the python is completely fine. Incubus rails overheating too fast needs to be fixed. Skill multiplier for dropship ROF needs to be dramatically decreased to make it worthwhile. Collisions between dropships need to be looked at. Swarms need a change to their mechanics to make them more powerful, but require skill instead of fire and forget. GLORY TO THE STATE
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1396	Posted - 2014.10.23 22:56:00 - [166] - Quote Besides being yet another regret are there any signs on when Echo will drop? I am sorry for asking here, Judge, but I cannot seem to find any references to it or the current list. And you actually fly ADS, which is what I was interested in. Before you ask, yes I am asking to determine if it is worth turning on my PS3. So far the answer on the Dust514 Ouija board seems to indicate ... check back after 1.9. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18399	Posted - 2014.10.23 23:08:00 - [167] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Honestly speaking, like in most threads you open your mouth in, you don't have a ***ing clue what you're talking about Za'ki.. This made me smile. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.* GM Scotsman is my hero.
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1884	Posted - 2014.10.24 00:16:00 - [168] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. See? We told you. This is what it's like to get bent over. Only, think of it for 2 years running, many times over. I really hope you've learned your lesson. Okay spark, I logged in just to reply to this. Shut up, you know nothing of pain and hardship. Tankers have had it pretty easy since the start. There is a reason why every dropship pilots mortal enemy is a lamp post, I don't expect you to understand this as you have never had to deal with something as horrible as loosing hundreads of thousands of isk to gently tapping something. Judge, I am concerned by this post and I will be logging in to dust either later today or tomorrow to try these changes first hand. If my role of troop transport has been hampered to the point it is unviable then I will post so here, as that would be serious. Master Skyshark rider Kaalaka dakka tamer
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5349	Posted - 2014.10.24 01:31:00 - [169] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. See? We told you. This is what it's like to get bent over. Only, think of it for 2 years running, many times over. I really hope you've learned your lesson. Okay spark, I logged in just to reply to this. Shut up, you know nothing of pain and hardship. Tankers have had it pretty easy since the start. There is a reason why every dropship pilots mortal enemy is a lamp post, I don't expect you to understand this as you have never had to deal with something as horrible as loosing hundreads of thousands of isk to gently tapping something. Judge, I am concerned by this post and I will be logging in to dust either later today or tomorrow to try these changes first hand. If my role of troop transport has been hampered to the point it is unviable then I will post so here, as that would be serious. Troop Transport with a Myron or Grimsnes is virtually the only way you can still fly and be useful. Missile RoF is low enough that the Swarmer you're shooting will have emptied his magazine into you before you can kill him, and after 5 matches of using a Small Blaster on an Incubus, I can confirm that there is NO dispersion when firing. Just like how the HMG used to be, if the tiny dot in the middle of the circle isn't on the enemy, your shots won't do any damage, even if you can see them spreading out enough that you should have gotten a hit. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 574	Posted - 2014.10.24 14:09:00 - [170] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Rather than increase the RoF bonus, I think that Missile turrets should have their own RoF looked at, since they weren't really a threat on anything but an ADS before, and now can only hit people that are oblivious to the fact that they're getting shot at. Personally, I would also like to see Turret variants brought back into the game. While the current missiles seem reasonable for killing infantry given that in most cases you can drop a suit in one shot, they are completely worthless against vehicles. A higher RoF missile with very little splash damage could help the Python be useful against vehicles again. However, I would like to point out that the Incubus with a Small Railgun suddenly feels amazing. Even with the bonus reduced so far, the changes made to Small Rails mean that I can drop a Soma in a single magazine, and I've been working on improving my aim so I can go back to killing tanks. I have a top missile turret on my multi-turret tank & it's always been effective for everything from clearing low roof av to helping down another tank and even fending off pesky dropships... With an ads the missile turret is great as AV as well as infantry, downing an LAV has always and still is easier with the missiles, shooting enemies out of side turrets is also a lot easier (although I miss blaster turrets during Charlie as that was more entertaining, lol.) Downing a tank is also very easy, even though everyone wants to be able to drop them without reloading, which is just plain stupid considering how few places there are for a tank to hide from aerial assault. I do agree that the small rails are nice though.

Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 104	Posted - 2014.10.24 16:38:00 - [171] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: I've invested in my role, I have prototype forge guns & heavy. Im not sure what relevance anything you are saying has to a discussion of balance, what bad swarmers do doesnt mean much. Just like what bad ADS pilots do doesnt mean much. All I know is that at a reasonable level of skill, an ADS pilot in a one on one with AV is invincible unless they choose to risk death. I'm talking about your militia comment obviously and if you have such an investment then why mention militia.?. , like your trying to make some type of point of comparison , that's what I'm talking about . An ADS pilot should be invincible in a one on one with a single AV unless they risk death , they have a much greater advantage in mobility if their skilled like you mentioned but also like you mentioned , it should depend upon the skill and weapon used by each . Why risk death when you already have a tactical advantage ? That would just be greedy and foolish when I'm sure as a pilot , there are many targets that would need the same amount of attention that would have been given to that one player and would prove to be of more value . I mentioned militia in response to someone else's comment. The gist of the exchange being that he somehow thinks militia AV is effective, and I do not. Im glad we agree that under the current AV/ADS dynamic the ADS is entirely in control of its own fate and the AV has no real prospect of winning unless the ADS makes a mistake, Im disappointed that you think this is acceptable. Why the heck would I ever choose to play a class who cant even defeat the unit it exists to counter? Why would anyone? The only reason I do it is because I hate seeing blueberries being farmed by some jerk who is exploiting an overpowered mechanic. If AV can't kill non-AV infantry, and AV can't kill vehicles... I mean... seriously, do I have to go on? What you are saying is its ok to have a class where every success it has is based on a mistake by its opponent, and it cant even reliably kill the thing it is meant to directly counter. That's just ******* insane.
Pushing Charlie Elite Intergalactic Mercenaries 317	Posted - 2014.10.24 18:08:00 - [172] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. See? We told you. This is what it's like to get bent over. Only, think of it for 2 years running, many times over. I really hope you've learned your lesson. Okay spark, I logged in just to reply to this. Shut up, you know nothing of pain and hardship. Tankers have had it pretty easy since the start. There is a reason why every dropship pilots mortal enemy is a lamp post, I don't expect you to understand this as you have never had to deal with something as horrible as loosing hundreads of thousands of isk to gently tapping something. Judge, I am concerned by this post and I will be logging in to dust either later today or tomorrow to try these changes first hand. If my role of troop transport has been hampered to the point it is unviable then I will post so here, as that would be serious. Pain and hardship? This is a ******* videogame. Knight Soiaire I BELIEVE!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 254	Posted - 2014.10.24 20:57:00 - [173] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. A lot of righteous indignation from a CPM member who was AWAL when he was needed most. Rattati needed to change the bonus because having a turret fire 50% faster on one platform than any other made it too difficult to balance, as balancing small turrets on HAVGÇÖs, LAVGÇÖs, and standard Dropships would make them OP on ADS; and balancing them on ADS would make them UP on other platforms. He was not able to get any constructive feedback from the ADS community, so he overnerfed them to insure that he would get plenty of feedback for the next balance pass. So fare his strategy seems to be working. I have seen a lot more analysis and creative ideas out of the ADS community since. Now that you are back, maybe you can coordinate all that and come up with a proper fix. For clarification: On the ROF Rattati announced himself he asked no one about feedback, not pilots, and not the CPM. The ROF reduction was announced in the google doc sheet on Hotfix delta. Rattati announced this in defense of Soraya Xel, who foolishily showed up to troll in the first thread about the unnanouced nerf . Quote: #118Posted: 2014.09.23 00:37 \| Report \| Edited by: CCP Rattati 32 Alena Ventrallis wrote: Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? The decision was mine and mine alone, a 50% increase in DPS is unprecedented progression of damage in the game, and makes it impossible to balance. Pilot feedback has been the same pre-delta and post-delta, but Rattati was going to buff swarms in delta regardless of what anybody said, Pre-delta feedback on swarms wasn't going to happen. And what pilots pre delta said about the swarms and ROF came true. - Every swarm missile fired will hit. Pilots cannot lose swarms around buildings or terrain. - Anything fit with less then Proto modules will die in three shots. Three shots will always hit even with afterburner. - Buffing swarms will not affect the power ADS have over infantry. - 2.2 million SP ROF skill is nearly identical to 0 SP ROF skill. Currently it is worthless. - AV role of dropships is impacted severely, to the point where the only ADS turret that is viable is a missile. - Swarms do not crash into buildings, nor do they hit terrain. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1291	Posted - 2014.10.24 21:07:00 - [174] - Quote Moochie Cricket wrote: Everything about the python is completely fine. Incubus rails overheating too fast needs to be fixed. Skill multiplier for dropship ROF needs to be dramatically decreased to make it worthwhile. Collisions between dropships need to be looked at. Swarms need a change to their mechanics to make them more powerful, but require skill instead of fire and forget. just give me a respec out of ROF.. seriously 10% to 3%... he couldnt even meet us in the middle on it. obviously dev is not a vehicle user. whatever i dont need the ROF that bad but it sux i spent all that SP on it. i myself flew all night last night i dont remember loosing a single ADS. i lost a grims due to 6 different AVs focus firing at me. somehow i did not loose an ADS after 6 hours of flight. idc that the rest of pilots are having a hard time the whole pilot thing had become some kind of cheesey boys club with easy mode being in effect. AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1291	Posted - 2014.10.24 21:10:00 - [175] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. A lot of righteous indignation from a CPM member who was AWAL when he was needed most. Rattati needed to change the bonus because having a turret fire 50% faster on one platform than any other made it too difficult to balance, as balancing small turrets on HAVGÇÖs, LAVGÇÖs, and standard Dropships would make them OP on ADS; and balancing them on ADS would make them UP on other platforms. He was not able to get any constructive feedback from the ADS community, so he overnerfed them to insure that he would get plenty of feedback for the next balance pass. So fare his strategy seems to be working. I have seen a lot more analysis and creative ideas out of the ADS community since. Now that you are back, maybe you can coordinate all that and come up with a proper fix. For clarification: On the ROF Rattati announced himself he asked no one about feedback, not pilots, and not the CPM. The ROF reduction was announced in the google doc sheet on Hotfix delta. Rattati announced this in defense of Soraya Xel, who foolishily showed up to troll in the first thread about the unnanouced nerf . Quote: #118Posted: 2014.09.23 00:37 \| Report \| Edited by: CCP Rattati 32 Alena Ventrallis wrote: Where was discussion on such a huge Nerf to ADS ROF? The decision was mine and mine alone, a 50% increase in DPS is unprecedented progression of damage in the game, and makes it impossible to balance. Pilot feedback has been the same pre-delta and post-delta, but Rattati was going to buff swarms in delta regardless of what anybody said, Pre-delta feedback on swarms wasn't going to happen. And what pilots pre delta said about the swarms and ROF came true. - Every swarm missile fired will hit. Pilots cannot lose swarms around buildings or terrain. - Anything fit with less then Proto modules will die in three shots. Three shots will always hit even with afterburner. - Buffing swarms will not affect the power ADS have over infantry. - 2.2 million SP ROF skill is nearly identical to 0 SP ROF skill. Currently it is worthless. - AV role of dropships is impacted severely, to the point where the only ADS turret that is viable is a missile. *- Swarms do not crash into buildings, nor do they hit terrain.* QFT.. the dev just decided to go home early that day rather than complete the rework of swarms, it's like he finished the buff and was like ah well no one except pilots will care/notice i didn't complete the rework.. i already brought the point up to judge he ignores me as usual.. AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 324	Posted - 2014.10.24 21:28:00 - [176] - Quote Swarmies hiting DS if DS is in open space. Swarmies still hitting structures. DSs can still fly away from them by smart using of enviroment. We should still have that stamped in head DS is still armed taxi, its Drop..Ship Honestly i thing about bonuses from "maybe upcoming" pilot suits. And about racial variants of vehicles, ships and its weapons. That the other thingie (hell we even saw DS with repair beans). I things are fine overall. DS was ridiclously OP, it was like flying angel of death before nerf and i agree with nerf. From other side of the virtual coin, there is something what i want to highlight. I do agree here with skilling on to swarms. There should be bigger and perceptible gap between what is skilled swarmies and what is basicaly mlt. without any skill. But hell thats just tinking Im for vehicles and for their pure roles on battlefield, but im against unbalanced thingies and OPs aswell "Ultimate Pirmatar, Logi extraordinaire and fabulous Tinker since 2012"
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 256	Posted - 2014.10.25 11:00:00 - [177] - Quote postapo wastelander wrote: Swarmies hiting DS if DS is in open space. Swarmies still hitting structures. DSs can still fly away from them by smart using of enviroment. We should still have that stamped in head DS is still armed taxi, its Drop..Ship Honestly i thing about bonuses from "maybe upcoming" pilot suits. And about racial variants of vehicles, ships and its weapons. That the other thingie (hell we even saw DS with repair beans). I things are fine overall. DS was ridiclously OP, it was like flying angel of death before nerf and i agree with nerf. From other side of the virtual coin, there is something what i want to highlight. I do agree here with skilling on to swarms. There should be bigger and perceptible gap between what is skilled swarmies and what is basicaly mlt. without any skill. But hell thats just tinking Im for vehicles and for their pure roles on battlefield, but im against unbalanced thingies and OPs aswell Well, if dropships are merly taxis, then why isn't the SP and Isk investment reflective of that? Ignoring turrets, a surviavble dropship is still a multi-million SP invesment, without the individual gains. The KDR will always be higher than a dropsuit because 1) The investment is not undertaken by a wide spectrum of players. Every body has a dropsuit, but not everybody flies, and certainly not many people fly combat. your are measuring the KDR of wide range of players compared to the KD of very few 2) the very expense of flying compared to the payout makes going it prohibitive to pull out multiple ships in a single match. the majority of Pilots cannot afford to loose 3 or four ships a match. Going 5-0, 10-0 is a much more sucessful than 20-3, compared to an infantry suit. 3) Keeping a dropship alive over the course of several matches is paramount. If i go 10-0, 8-1, 11-0 over three matches in each individual match i will have gotten a positive KD but a low scoring match, a poor second match, and still go isk negative but over time it looks like i have gone 29-! and it loks op No matter how much people cry team work, it is only one person investing thier time and effort to earn the SP and the Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2260	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:48:00 - [178] - Quote This is what happens when we try to solve a problem by working the wrong variables. Again. DUST's vehicle model is a dynamic tanking model: everything revolves around time-based variables(module cycle time, acceleration, velocity, lock time, charge time, projectile speed, range because d=vt, likewise for lock range). The vehicle/AV balance in DUST is driven* by these variables because it's designed around these variables. And yet we keep on trying to balance by adjusting HP, Rof, dps....time and time again, hoping that it will work this time. It doesn't work. It will never work. If you want to work with a giant-bucket-of-hitpoints model then scrap what we've got and do it, but please don't apply giant-bucket-of-hitpoints balancing to a dynamic engagement model. Make an effort to balance on dynamic variables. Balancing a dynamic model is hard and requires a deep toolkit, insight and perseverance. Balancing a bucket-of-hp model is much easier, but results in fundamentally less interesting gameplay. We need to decide what we want to be. PSN: RationalSpark
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 853	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:11:00 - [179] - Quote Well... If I can stand on a roof with a prof 5 ishy ass forge only for an ADS to circle around me shrugging off my shots and 2/3 shotting my sentinel I'd say they were fine. So... In that case ADS are fine. You're just a **** pilot who has everyone believing you're actually good..
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 346	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:42:00 - [180] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: postapo wastelander wrote: Swarmies hiting DS if DS is in open space. Swarmies still hitting structures. DSs can still fly away from them by smart using of enviroment. We should still have that stamped in head DS is still armed taxi, its Drop..Ship Honestly i thing about bonuses from "maybe upcoming" pilot suits. And about racial variants of vehicles, ships and its weapons. That the other thingie (hell we even saw DS with repair beans). I things are fine overall. DS was ridiclously OP, it was like flying angel of death before nerf and i agree with nerf. From other side of the virtual coin, there is something what i want to highlight. I do agree here with skilling on to swarms. There should be bigger and perceptible gap between what is skilled swarmies and what is basicaly mlt. without any skill. But hell thats just tinking Im for vehicles and for their pure roles on battlefield, but im against unbalanced thingies and OPs aswell Well, if dropships are merly taxis, then why isn't the SP and Isk investment reflective of that? Ignoring turrets, a surviavble dropship is still a multi-million SP invesment, without the individual gains. The KDR will always be higher than a dropsuit because 1) The investment is not undertaken by a wide spectrum of players. Every body has a dropsuit, but not everybody flies, and certainly not many people fly combat. your are measuring the KDR of wide range of players compared to the KD of very few 2) the very expense of flying compared to the payout makes going it prohibitive to pull out multiple ships in a single match. the majority of Pilots cannot afford to loose 3 or four ships a match. Going 5-0, 10-0 is a much more sucessful than 20-3, compared to an infantry suit. 3) Keeping a dropship alive over the course of several matches is paramount. If i go 10-0, 8-1, 11-0 over three matches in each individual match i will have gotten a positive KD but a low scoring match, a poor second match, and still go isk negative but over time it looks like i have gone 29-1 and it looks op. Oki what is DS> The dropship's primary function is as a high speed troop carrier. Able to deploy a whole squad (excluding the pilot) at high speed and altitude; it can also loiter to provide fire support (particularly deadly for assault variants), or be a mobile CRU carrier to act as an anchoring unit for a beachhead. Assault dropships are very effective against HAVs, as they can hover above it (where the gun can't aim at them), and slowly chip away their health. They hold a similar devastating effect against infantry in open ground. By Dust 514 wiki Dropships The dropshipGÇÖs function is to support ground units by laying down fire from its two turrets, and deploy infantry reinforcements where needed. This most maneuverable vehicle is capable of hover flight, the better to quickly insert fresh infantry into a hot zone, then fall back and lay down suppressive fire from the air. by Vehicles - Dust 514 webside "Nanohives, repairs or droplinks, just ask me on field i can tink anything RD"

Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5352	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:24:00 - [181] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You killed tanks, which gave your precious dropships free reign. What did you think was going to happen? LOL Thank you for that. He had railgun range cut in half, insanely mostly by himself. Yeah, because being able to kill vehicles being delivered into the enemy redline from the safety of your own redline was stupid. You could literally destroy anything you chose to anywhere on the map without being at risk whatsoever. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1244	Posted - 2014.10.28 12:48:00 - [182] - Quote [quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not.[/quote Show me why it does. What does balance look like to you? What kdr or spawn/kill ratio should ADS pilots average?Tankers? AVers? Or what metric should we be looking at? To me they should all fare similarly , what we had was pilots being nigh invincible and claiming they deserved it because of SP and ISK expenditure. I am still pretty sure that 10 swarms are lost for every ADS at a minimum, so how is that imbalanced against ADS? Because, that's why.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17531	Posted - 2014.10.28 19:35:00 - [183] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: [quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not.[/quote Show me why it does. What does balance look like to you? What kdr or spawn/kill ratio should ADS pilots average?Tankers? AVers? Or what metric should we be looking at? To me they should all fare similarly , what we had was pilots being nigh invincible and claiming they deserved it because of SP and ISK expenditure. I am still pretty sure that 10 swarms are lost for every ADS at a minimum, so how is that imbalanced against ADS? 10? more like 100. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Hynox Xitio 0uter.Heaven 1739	Posted - 2014.10.28 19:40:00 - [184] - Quote Absolution is imminent. Eliminate all vehicles. I won't scatter your sorrow to the heartless fogwogglers. ( -íº -£-û -íº) /)
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2247	Posted - 2014.10.28 19:53:00 - [185] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You killed tanks, which gave your precious dropships free reign. What did you think was going to happen? LOL Thank you for that. He had railgun range cut in half, insanely mostly by himself. Yeah, because being able to kill vehicles being delivered into the enemy redline from the safety of your own redline was stupid. You could literally destroy anything you chose to anywhere on the map without being at risk whatsoever. There's plenty of maps that are longer than 600m. I'm not a redline camper. You're thinking of other people. What do you have against vehicles anyway? Why are you so concerned about an AV turret anyway? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2935	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:27:00 - [186] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: [quote=Judge Rhadamanthus]If you think A good job was done with the Tank, the ADS and the AV then speak up. I think It sucks. Show me why it does not.[/quote Show me why it does. What does balance look like to you? What kdr or spawn/kill ratio should ADS pilots average?Tankers? AVers? Or what metric should we be looking at? To me they should all fare similarly , what we had was pilots being nigh invincible and claiming they deserved it because of SP and ISK expenditure. I am still pretty sure that 10 swarms are lost for every ADS at a minimum, so how is that imbalanced against ADS? 10? more like 100. 100? How about we look at some real figures. Pulling numbers from your bottom is useless. Dropships in this build need to maintain a 43.2 kdr compared to the equivilent SP based Swarm with a 3.6 KDR. KDR alone as a balance tool is for people who have a pre-school understanding of balance tools Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4410	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:31:00 - [187] - Quote Nothing in this game should ever "maintain" a KDR of 43. Ever. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2935	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:35:00 - [188] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Nothing in this game should ever "maintain" a KDR of 43. Ever. Interesting point. how many kills per game then, for a dropship over 20 games is a 43 KDR? And how does that compare based on kills and P and L to a Swarmer? Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4410	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:37:00 - [189] - Quote No consumable item fielded in this game should ever survive 20 games. Ever. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4260	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:39:00 - [190] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Nothing in this game should ever "maintain" a KDR of 43. Ever. Seconded. My advice to you, playa...

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2935	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:43:00 - [191] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: No consumable item fielded in this game should ever survive 20 games. Ever. I said over 20 games as kdr.... what has that got to do with lasting 20 games without a death? that would not be a 43 kdr. Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4412	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:52:00 - [192] - Quote Okay, let me ask you, how many kills and deaths do you expect with a well-balanced ADS in the course of a single match? CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 2935	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:54:00 - [193] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Okay, let me ask you, how many kills and deaths do you expect with a well-balanced ADS in the course of a single match? It can only be compared to other classes. you cannot look at the ADS alone. Ill drop the math into a video for those who are struggling with this Email Me [email protected] Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2930	Posted - 2014.10.28 22:07:00 - [194] - Quote Well, I guess I need to draw up a necro bump. Now tell me this Soraya, why should I skill level 5 ROF if it's not going to, mathematically, help me in any way. And just for fun, I'd like you to put yourself in our shoes. Let's say you're wanting to become a pilot, and you just unearthed an old alt with 15 mil SP in it. Tell me exactly what you'd invest in for your ADS and dropsuit, and I will tell you exactly how you killed your team. Also, if you could tell me which skills you'd go into first, and at what levels, that'd be great. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4413	Posted - 2014.10.28 22:09:00 - [195] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Now tell me this Soraya, why should I skill level 5 ROF if it's not going to, mathematically, help me in any way. No other skill bonus in the game was offering a monumental 50% buff. That was crazy. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2930	Posted - 2014.10.28 22:53:00 - [196] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Now tell me this Soraya, why should I skill level 5 ROF if it's not going to, mathematically, help me in any way. No other skill bonus in the game was offering a monumental 50% buff. That was crazy. i put a link in my previous comment which should say my exact answer. but the problem here now is you did not answer my question. why should i, or any aspiring pilot, go level 5 ROF? R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2014.10.28 23:19:00 - [197] - Quote Pilots are subject to strong survival of the fittest mechanics as there are no 'basic' ADS Dropships and if you can't go games without losing a Dropship then you can't run them (unless you have deep pockets) Whereas I can run lolswarms starter fit, grief pilots all game and still turn a profit
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13900	Posted - 2014.10.28 23:40:00 - [198] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Pilots are subject to strong survival of the fittest mechanics as there are no 'basic' ADS Dropships and if you can't go games without losing a Dropship then you can't run them (unless you have deep pockets) Whereas I can run lolswarms starter fit, grief pilots all game and still turn a profit That's about right I think. Even a Prototype AV fit only costs roughly 300,000 ISK. Tanks I run are well over 700,000 ISK. Roughly costing me 824975 ISK a pop excluding the costs of my dropsuits which are reasonably minimal (considering I picked up the Templar sets for roughly 1.3 Billion ISK) "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
General Mosquito Kinsho Swords Caldari State 17	Posted - 2014.10.28 23:49:00 - [199] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So I have been flying dropships for 2 days. And the CPM and CCP should be ashamed of themselves. Me included. I apologize to pilots. I let you down. The ADS is useless. We can't even make a tank scared now. My missiles fire so slowly i'm just a noise in the air, nothing more. We tried to show the evidence to CCP, we tried to manage balance but the anti vehicles guys could not let their lack of experience and knowledge stop them from sticking their ignorant fingers into the mix. Killing a Milita dropship in a proto ship is a 5 minute fight. Killing tanks is impossible unless they forget the redline exists. Round two; gloves off. You killed tanks, which gave your precious dropships free reign. What did you think was going to happen? LOL Thank you for that. He had railgun range cut in half, insanely mostly by himself. Yeah, because being able to kill vehicles being delivered into the enemy redline from the safety of your own redline was stupid. You could literally destroy anything you chose to anywhere on the map without being at risk whatsoever. You clearly don't know what 600m is. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Hakyou Brutor Capital Acquisitions LLC 1466	Posted - 2014.10.28 23:54:00 - [200] - Quote Cool. Look at them tanks while you're here too.

DarthPlagueis TheWise 154	Posted - 2014.10.28 23:57:00 - [201] - Quote just sell shiny purple quafe dropships. problem solved destiny sux
handkerchief guy Ametat Security 9	Posted - 2014.10.29 10:04:00 - [202] - Quote [Data Insights] Assault Dropships Not yet? driving incubus under the influence
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17541	Posted - 2014.10.29 11:31:00 - [203] - Quote Why the only thing I have EVER encountered in my entire gaming in the past with a similar KDR in theory was an Aim Bot in Call of Duty 2 and that I did manage to kill middle of his reload and luckily cover penetration bullets were not a thing yet. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 12:15:00 - [204] - Quote I've brought it up in other balance threads: ISK is generally perceived as not wanted as a balance mechanic. ISK cost limits the sustainability of ADSs (even post-Delta, though now HAVs are actually more expensive when similarly fitted.) What it boils down to is either: ISK is a balance factor such that more expensive gear is more powerful (PRO equipment is a prime example - it is flat out superior than the lower tiers, and has an appropriately high cost attached) ISK is not a balance factor and so nothing should cost more than 1 ISK, ever. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4435	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:13:00 - [205] - Quote Kallas, the point is, ISK cannot be a justification to buff a thing. Because that is not balance. You can set the ISK price based on power and effectiveness, but that is the afterthought. The balance must be from how it plays in the game. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1476	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:18:00 - [206] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas, the point is, ISK cannot be a justification to buff a thing. Because that is not balance. You can set the ISK price based on power and effectiveness, but that is the afterthought. The balance must be from how it plays in the game. It either is or it isn't Soraya. You're flip-flopping on the issue. If 'consumables' are designed to make people go deeply isk-negative in a match should they lose them, they should certainly be powerful. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4440	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:35:00 - [207] - Quote The game has to be balanced independently of ISK. Then you set the ISK rate to fit the effectiveness of things afterwards. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:40:00 - [208] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas, the point is, ISK cannot be a justification to buff a thing. Because that is not balance. You can set the ISK price based on power and effectiveness, but that is the afterthought. The balance must be from how it plays in the game. It either is or it isn't Soraya. You're flip-flopping on the issue. If 'consumables' are designed to make people go deeply isk-negative in a match should they lose them, they should certainly be powerful. If 'consumables' have a skill tree roughly 4x more expensive than infantry they should not only be able to play their chosen role in every match and have it be at least some use, but they should also be able to go isk positive while playing it. I have serious issues with the fact that you think vehicles should be warpoint pi+¦ata's or taxi's. Exactly, thank you MINA. Either ISK is or isn't a balancing factor, it's that simple. Considering EVE's philosophy and the inherited state we have, ISK evidently is supposed to be a balancing point. If ISK is a factor, then the more expensive an item, the more powerful it is, relative to others of its ilk: a plate that gives more armour is more expensive; a gun that kills better is more expensive. That's not to say balance cannot be achieved, but ISK is a part of that balance: even with Delta, losing a single dropship means ISK negativity unless you earn 300+ thousand ISK in a battle. So Soraya, a simple yes or no question: is ISK a balancing factor? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4440	Posted - 2014.10.29 14:42:00 - [209] - Quote I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2934	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:07:00 - [210] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. well, you didn't answer mine. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4443	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:27:00 - [211] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: well, you didn't answer mine. You skill into ROF if you want a greater ROF. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Michael Arck 5902	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:43:00 - [212] - Quote This is quite interesting indeed. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2935	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:53:00 - [213] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: well, you didn't answer mine. You skill into ROF if you want a greater ROF. yet looking at the math, it's not worth level 5, especially when asking 1.2mil. care to tell me why my most expensive skill is nothing more than convenient? R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4455	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:56:00 - [214] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: yet looking at the math, it's not worth level 5, especially when asking 1.2mil. care to tell me why my most expensive skill is nothing more than convenient? Skills are intended to use diminishing returns, from level 1 to 5, and at higher skill multipliers (8x, etc.). More advanced tweaks to your suits and vehicles become less and less powerful, and require more and more SP as you go deeper into the skill tree. This is by design. Whether the skill is worth it to you is a personal decision, but it was overpowered and now it is not. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 595	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:08:00 - [215] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: why should I skill level 5 ROF if it's not going to, mathematically, help me in any way. Because math differs to practical use... Yes IF the ads and the av player do everything at the exact first possible moment it all counts for nothing, but in practice that doesn't happen, people have to fly, move and aim (among other things.) An extra anything is going to help in certain rare circumstances, be it against another dropship and LAV getting into the redzone... An infantry player running into a building... Or just maybe you didn't fly perfectly and ended up pointing the sight at the guy just slightly before you could have fired with lvl 4. MEDICO RITARDATO wrote: #CRYBABYTHREAD Now give me likes. Te Sbundo!
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:16:00 - [216] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. Ok, so with that being the case, why does a Prototype suit cost more than a Standard suit? Why does an ADS hull cost more than a fully fitted infantry suit? You have said yourself that ISK is not a balancing factor, so why is ISK even needed? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2936	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:19:00 - [217] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Skills are intended to use diminishing returns, from level 1 to 5, and at higher skill multipliers (8x, etc.). More advanced tweaks to your suits and vehicles become less and less powerful, and require more and more SP as you go deeper into the skill tree. This is by design. Whether the skill is worth it to you is a personal decision, but it was overpowered and now it is not. oh, but it's not a personal decision. i've asked every pilot i know, along with a few AVers. not a single one would go level 5 in it. and from my ground time along with my math, i can tell you that people skilled into their dropsuits because it was worth it. people skilled into proto AV because it was worth it. people skill into reload speed, proficiency, and ammo capacity for AV because it was worth it. this isn't some personal opinion, like you say. it's the math of it. i'm asking for the same thing AVers get with their skills, to be worth it. that shouldn't be such a horrible thing to ask for. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2936	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:42:00 - [218] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Because math differs to practical use... Yes IF the ads and the av player do everything at the exact first possible moment it all counts for nothing, but in practice that doesn't happen, people have to fly, move and aim (among other things.) An extra anything is going to help in certain rare circumstances, be it against another dropship and LAV getting into the redzone... An infantry player running into a building... Or just maybe you didn't fly perfectly and ended up pointing the sight at the guy just slightly before you could have fired with lvl 4. "in certain rare circumstances". i can safely assure you that i haven't ran across any situations where my ROF saved me. i've had situations where my shield recharge saved me, where my core grid management saved me, and where my shield tanking has saved me. aside from that, you answered this question before, saying you had level 3, and wouldn't even bother touching it. did something change? R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7132	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:44:00 - [219] - Quote Oh my god this thread. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4462	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:45:00 - [220] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. Ok, so with that being the case, why does a Prototype suit cost more than a Standard suit? Why does an ADS hull cost more than a fully fitted infantry suit? You have said yourself that ISK is not a balancing factor, so why is ISK even needed? I have explained this as well. ISK is not a balancing factor, as in, you do not use it when balancing gear. But you set the ISK price based on it's place in the game balance. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:57:00 - [221] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. Ok, so with that being the case, why does a Prototype suit cost more than a Standard suit? Why does an ADS hull cost more than a fully fitted infantry suit? You have said yourself that ISK is not a balancing factor, so why is ISK even needed? I have explained this as well. ISK is not a balancing factor, as in, you do not use it when balancing gear. But you set the ISK price based on it's place in the game balance. ISK is not a balancing factor; everything is equally effective (for its level); some things cost vastly more than others. This is illogical. What is the purpose of something costing more ISK? Why is that important in any way if everything is balanced? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4465	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:42:00 - [222] - Quote Many things are goofy from the old way of doing things. Generally, ISK should be fairly representative of a thing's effectiveness in battle. Better things should cost more. ISK still obviously has a point, because there are tiers of items. But ISK cost is a result of balance, not an input justification to balance. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1066	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:08:00 - [223] - Quote To be clear, I'm leaving this here for the benefit of you lot. http://youtu.be/8qb-h0sXkH4 How to balance cloaks.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:25:00 - [224] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Many things are goofy from the old way of doing things. Generally, ISK should be fairly representative of a thing's effectiveness in battle. Better things should cost more. ISK still obviously has a point, because there are tiers of items. But ISK cost is a result of balance, not an input justification to balance. So that is essentially full circle and completely counter to your previous statement. If ISK is needed to represent effectiveness, and affects how much a certain piece can be used, *that is using ISK as a balance point.* What you have asserted is that ISK is a part of the balancing; if something costs more, it should be more effective is essentially the bottom line. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4466	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:28:00 - [225] - Quote No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:45:00 - [226] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. If they are not linked in both regards then there is no purpose of the ISK system. The point of limiting the amount of ISK a player receives is to limit how much of an item that player can use. If that is not the case, then every item costing 1 ISK would not be a problem: that is not the case, ISK is given out on a limited basis such that the more expensive items cannot be used without thought. A player cannot use all-PRO gear for nearly as long or with as care free thought as all-STD gear. If this statement weren't true, there would not be a need to limit the gain of ISK. So, if ISK is important to limit the volume of any given item, then it is a part of the balancing process. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. Then why is ISK at all needed? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4468	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:52:00 - [227] - Quote I am now giving up on this thread. Which is fine, because it was a bad thread to begin with. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:58:00 - [228] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I am now giving up on this thread. Which is fine, because it was a bad thread to begin with. Well, it's fantastic that we have someone with such backbone on the CPM. I'm so glad someone can twist and turn so much even politicians would be proud... Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4469	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:00:00 - [229] - Quote I did not twist and turn at all. Your inability to comprehend the issue is not my problem, as I have exhausted multiple attempts to explain it to you. You cannot explain things to a brick wall. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 597	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:07:00 - [230] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Because math differs to practical use... Yes IF the ads and the av player do everything at the exact first possible moment it all counts for nothing, but in practice that doesn't happen, people have to fly, move and aim (among other things.) An extra anything is going to help in certain rare circumstances, be it against another dropship and LAV getting into the redzone... An infantry player running into a building... Or just maybe you didn't fly perfectly and ended up pointing the sight at the guy just slightly before you could have fired with lvl 4. "in certain rare circumstances". i can safely assure you that i haven't ran across any situations where my ROF saved me. i've had situations where my shield recharge saved me, where my core grid management saved me, and where my shield tanking has saved me. aside from that, you answered this question before, saying you had level 3, and wouldn't even bother touching it. did something change? It's RoF, it's offensive it helps you get an extra shot in sooner rather than later, it's not meant to keep you alive like regen/hp/hardeners/movespeed... I also said I wasn't going above lvl 3 before when it was 50% so no, still no changes. Unless you're asking that the base fire rate of small turrets be reduced simply so that people with high sp can still have an advantage over everyone else (including other vehicles, which get no bonus for anything) then yes I might have to get to lvl 5 if I'm not interested in branching out into many different roles as I currently do, which for many lvl 3 is sufficient. I also don't have proficiency in small turrets (heck only missiles are above lvl 3 opperation, for everything else there's loyalty points.) I don't have more than lvl 3 ads skill (what is it 2 or 3% damage for small turrets? who needs it.) or assult rifle proficiency above lvl 3... They're all very small bonuses that really only give you a meaningless advantage over other people doing the same thing... Are you sure being able to fire slightly faster than another dropship or Tank/LAV fitted with small missile turret hasn't helped you at all and wont in the future?

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17549	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:13:00 - [231] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I've brought it up in other balance threads: ISK is generally perceived as not wanted as a balance mechanic. ISK cost limits the sustainability of ADSs (even post-Delta, though now HAVs are actually more expensive when similarly fitted.) What it boils down to is either: ISK is a balance factor such that more expensive gear is more powerful (PRO equipment is a prime example - it is flat out superior than the lower tiers, and has an appropriately high cost attached) ISK is not a balance factor and so nothing should cost more than 1 ISK, ever. Isk is not a balance factor; it is a flow control factor and for those in power the price of the ADS is pocket change they can lose 100 a day and not care. Making a militia rifle 1 million isk does not make it balancing factor. Making an ADS 10 isk does nothing to change its power either. the only thing it changes is how frequently you see said items CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 597	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:13:00 - [232] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. You realise the two are not independent of each other right? Also the effectiveness of AV is now balanced the same as the effectiveness of vehicles... So tanks/ads need a price drop to be in line with other proto suits.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:21:00 - [233] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I did not twist and turn at all. Your inability to comprehend the issue is not my problem, as I have exhausted multiple attempts to explain it to you. You cannot explain things to a brick wall. Sure. You said ISK is not a factor, yet refuse to acknowledge that it is an intrinsic part of the game that has been an element of the balance since the beginning. You say ISK is not a factor, but the game says otherwise: SP multiplier, damage and other metrics of effective define how much ISK it costs - that in and of itself does not mean much, but when coupled with the ISK generation mechanics, you have a method to restrict access to more powerful equipment. Restriction of access to certain assets is, therefore, a method to balance out the power of different pieces. Or, to put it simply, ISK is a balance mechanism. Really, I guess the point I'm driving at is that ADSs are not worth the ISK nor the SP cost, as voiced by pretty much every pilot I've spoken to and most pilots I've seen on the forums. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4470	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:22:00 - [234] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Also the effectiveness of AV is now balanced the same as the effectiveness of vehicles... So tanks/ads need a price drop to be in line with other proto suits. You are assuming tanks and ADSes are equivalent in effectiveness as proto suits. The ADS did receive a price drop with Delta. Had it not been nerfed, it would've needed a price increase, in fact. Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Really, I guess the point I'm driving at is that ADSs are not worth the ISK nor the SP cost, as voiced by pretty much every pilot I've spoken to and most pilots I've seen on the forums. This may be their biased opinion, but the data does not agree. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13924	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:40:00 - [235] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Also the effectiveness of AV is now balanced the same as the effectiveness of vehicles... So tanks/ads need a price drop to be in line with other proto suits. You are assuming tanks and ADSes are equivalent in effectiveness as proto suits. . Please CPM-sama don't let them drop the prices on vehicles further. Please oh please don't. These new vehicle users are weak they complain about ISK and poverty but they don't really remember...... They don't remember the times when a good vehicle cost 1.5-2 Million ISK. Good times, good times. GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 599	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:43:00 - [236] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: You are assuming tanks and ADSes are equivalent in effectiveness as proto suits. Fair enough, comparing a suit and a vehicle on anything other than kdr (which is about the same, since you get matches where an ads noob dies more than he kills and an infantry player can go 30 + for 1 or even 0 deaths... Plus the complete opposite for both...) But how about you compare a 350k ads with missile launcher to a 20k blaster LAV... You wanna tell me the LAV doesn't plow infantry with ease, while actually having an easier time of avoiding those pesky swarms? Edit- This is ignoring the whole LAV rail sniper, who can actually sit well out of range while popping headshots into an objective among other areas.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:18:00 - [237] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Really, I guess the point I'm driving at is that ADSs are not worth the ISK nor the SP cost, as voiced by pretty much every pilot I've spoken to and most pilots I've seen on the forums. This may be their biased opinion, but the data does not agree. As Derpty and Derrith have been talking about, the ROF bonus is extremely expensive and yet provides a very limited bonus to actual effectiveness. Having spoken to Judge and gotten only a small portion of his analysis of the data, I would very much for you to present something greater than, "Because data." Another [Data Analysis] thread would be extremely insightful. Maybe the 1.9 rendering fixes will help, but quite simply the Swarm changes have made ADSs incredibly vulnerable to even the most rudimentary AV; the most basic swarm fit is of enormous threat because of so many factors that have been ignored by Rattati and people like yourself because the 'data' doesn't support it. How much data is gathered about impulse effects? How much data is gathered about shots that go wild because an infantryman at 100m is barely a speck to an ADS pilot? What about the sheer inability to acquire and return fire on a target at 100m+ when you're taking enormous damage, being slapped about and being unable to even see the target, let alone hit within 2m to actually threaten them. If ISK is relative to effectiveness then Swarms need to be increased in cost by an enormous amount: they are extremely effective and yet extremely easy to use. The other inclination is to make the ADS actually usable whilst under fire. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2939	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:23:00 - [238] - Quote @ Derp, ROF is for helping you kill, this is true. but in this repect, it also helps you survive. case in point, two people are in battle, both weapons do the same damage, and their builds are the same, but one persons ROF is a little better. who wins? but on to my point. i'm not asking for a higher raw ROF for turrets, i'm asking that our ROF per level be noticeable for it's (not 10%, don't get your panties in a bunch). on movement, the only place i've been able to accurately factor that in is ADS vs maddy, and that's because of the back and forth technique (buys min 4 seconds), so not really. and the problem i have there is missiles is anti armor, and max ROF can't break the rep cycles of dropsuits/tanks. we're only a threat to idiot tankers. and on you not having any sort of need to devote yourself to a role, am i the only the one with an issue on this? not trying to criticize, but not needing to devote yourself to a role is kind of stupid to me. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4477	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:41:00 - [239] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: As Derpty and Derrith have been talking about, the ROF bonus is extremely expensive and yet provides a very limited bonus to actual effectiveness. Again, this is by design. Look at infantry skills which offer 3% reload rate increase. Some of the fitting optimization skills require two ranks just go get you 1 PG back. High-tier skills are extremely expensive and provide a very limited bonus. This is by design game-wide, but the ADS RoF bonus was a broken exception to the rule. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1246	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:52:00 - [240] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Nothing in this game should ever "maintain" a KDR of 43. Ever. Interesting point. how many kills per game then, for a dropship over 20 games is a 43 KDR? And how does that compare based on kills and P and L to a Swarmer? Yes, this is the problem with expensive toys, if we try to balance on ISK then we have insanely OP expensive ones. I have argued that the price if vehicles should drop much more to eliminate this mindset. It has some validity as an argument but is it consistent with ISK expenditure differences in the rest of the game. A proto weapon costs 40X what a STD one costs but is only 10% more effective. How much more effective should an ADS be, which I think you are saying costs 11X, then its counter? If the argument is SP or ISK investment then argue to change that because there is no way to balance expensive things if we can buy power. I am well aware of the difference between quantitative and qualitative analysis but we need some objectivity and a metric to rely on. Because, that's why.

Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 125	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:05:00 - [241] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. proto suits are not balanced against militia on power, they are balanced on isk
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 844	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:10:00 - [242] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: As Derpty and Derrith have been talking about, the ROF bonus is extremely expensive and yet provides a very limited bonus to actual effectiveness. Again, this is by design. Look at infantry skills which offer 3% reload rate increase. Some of the fitting optimization skills require two ranks just go get you 1 PG back. High-tier skills are extremely expensive and provide a very limited bonus. This is by design game-wide, but the ADS RoF bonus was a broken exception to the rule. The ADS skills are the equivalent of Dropsuit skills. No dropsuit skill is as expensive for as small a bonus (well, not at the moment: the AmScout used to be) but you think it's ok for ADSs? All Assaults get fitting on Light, Sidearm and Grenades as well as a weapon operation benefit. Sentinels get fitting on Heavy and resistance bonuses. Scouts gain fitting on Cloaks and EWar bonuses. Commandos get a plain damage buff and a reload speed buff. Logistics get fitting on Equipment and a bonus to the racial equipment. ADS get spare ammunition and ROF. Spare Ammunition: a minimal buff, pretty much akin to the fitting bonuses, except worse because it doesn't open any otherwise unavailable fittings. Without a change, the vehicle turrets have plenty of ammo for reasonably extended engagements. Not an amazing bonus, but it's also not the primary bonus. ROF: extra DPS. Sounds great, but comes with the minor drawback of also forcing an earlier reload. Applying your damage quicker is great, except the bonus is...mediocre. Python, empties clip in 9.6s: Max skill, empties in 8.16s - 2.48mil SP for 1.44s Incubus, overheat by 8th shot: Max skill, overheat by 9th shot - 2.48mil SP for 1 extra shot. ADS skill: extra damage - great, actually worthwhile and applies to all ADSs? Definitely worthwhile. Essentially, why bother with the racial ADS skill? The ADS skill is the same as a dropsuit; the racial skill is an entire SP load on top of it that costs even more - why is it worthless? You say that high level skills provide limited bonuses, but that doesn't apply to the Dropsuit Command skills, which universally provide potent, role defining bonuses. ROF bonus too high? Yeah, fine that's fair enough. But the ROF bonus as is is awful; an actually useful bonus to turret operation would be vastly more preferable. If you want to look at bias,I suggest that you have a look at the various threads that pilots have put up: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2394970 Does that look reasonable to you? What we, ADS pilots, need are useful bonuses that enable us to apply our damage in the manner that Rattati declared: strafing runs. Without high ROF or compressed damage output, we need the turrets to be able to do that and our skills to give bonuses to the operation of those turrets. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 125	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:11:00 - [243] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. I get what you're saying, you don't want an 300k death machine but a 50k points pinata
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 601	Posted - 2014.10.29 21:50:00 - [244] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: @ Derp, ROF is for helping you kill, this is true. but in this repect, it also helps you survive. case in point, two people are in battle, both weapons do the same damage, and their builds are the same, but one persons ROF is a little better. who wins? but on to my point. i'm not asking for a higher raw ROF for turrets, i'm asking that our ROF per level be noticeable for it's (not 10%, don't get your panties in a bunch). on movement, the only place i've been able to accurately factor that in is ADS vs maddy, and that's because of the back and forth technique (buys min 4 seconds), so not really. and the problem i have there is missiles is anti armor, and max ROF can't break the rep cycles of dropsuits/tanks. we're only a threat to idiot tankers. and on you not having any sort of need to devote yourself to a role, am i the only the one with an issue on this? not trying to criticize, but not needing to devote yourself to a role is kind of stupid to me. My point on movement was actually based on the path of the dropship + where you can possibly position the sight along that flight path against the running/wobbling/bunnyhopping of infantry, where by I have personally had moments where a shot just a fraction of a second earlier would have hit the target, but I couldn't so I had to move round and wait a little while longer allowing the infantry guy time to run to cover or even for some av/tank/whatever to start shooting. point being 10%, 15%, 50% or even 2%... No matter the number there will always be something to gain no matter how small or even unnoticeable it may seem. Now this is a bonus that doesn't fit with any dropsuit, the dropsuit bonus is comparable to the ads bonus of 2% small turret damage. Personally I'd suggest making this a racial turret fitting bonus for getting more turrets on. This is because to get any fitting bonus currently as an ads pilot, you have to waste time on small turret proficiency, which does absolutely jack for anyone... Although if it worked would be nice for the gunners (who wouldn't have to waste their time on the racial ads bonus, this should get refunded especially for those people who have been forced to spec into multiple things they don't need just to get bonuses required for their dedicated position.) Rep Maddys are a bane to a pilot for sure, but they aren't quite what they used to be, a forge gunner or another tanker will rip them to shreds now, I'm not 100% sure, but if you hit the weak spot enoughand/or fit a damage mod (crazy I know because swarms are bullshit if you don't currently use specific fits) it might actually drop. I know most of the Madruga's I see don't fit full reps and take quite a bit of killing from any source (but can be killed.) Shield tanks on the other hand are easy pickings if they don't make use of maneuverability.
Admiral James Kirk Rippers Taco Shack 33	Posted - 2014.11.28 19:44:00 - [245] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. proto suits are not balanced against militia on power, they are balanced on isk I agree. The alt of Deadly Aztec
Eruditus 920 Nemo Malus Felix 908	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:50:00 - [246] - Quote Admiral James Kirk wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. proto suits are not balanced against militia on power, they are balanced on isk I agree. You bumped a month dead thread to say "I agree"?? "Stay gold, Ponyboy..."
Riptalis Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 105	Posted - 2014.11.28 21:17:00 - [247] - Quote I think another major issue with ADS is the huge amount of SP you invest into it. You can invest so much SP into the ADS and still get ridiculously suppressed all the time or even get destroyed in a matter of seconds. Tanks get suppressed too but it takes a lot less SP to be effective in the game. This is just one of the many other issues with ADS. Even issues that started since the beginning have still not been looked at. Python pilot
Admiral James Kirk Rippers Taco Shack 33	Posted - 2014.11.28 21:26:00 - [248] - Quote Eruditus 920 wrote: Admiral James Kirk wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. proto suits are not balanced against militia on power, they are balanced on isk I agree. You bumped a month dead thread to say "I agree"?? How else am I supposed to let Juno know that I agree with his statement? The alt of Deadly Aztec


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