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Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4443	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:27:00 - [211] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: well, you didn't answer mine. You skill into ROF if you want a greater ROF. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Michael Arck 5902	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:43:00 - [212] - Quote This is quite interesting indeed. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2935	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:53:00 - [213] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: well, you didn't answer mine. You skill into ROF if you want a greater ROF. yet looking at the math, it's not worth level 5, especially when asking 1.2mil. care to tell me why my most expensive skill is nothing more than convenient? R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4455	Posted - 2014.10.29 15:56:00 - [214] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: yet looking at the math, it's not worth level 5, especially when asking 1.2mil. care to tell me why my most expensive skill is nothing more than convenient? Skills are intended to use diminishing returns, from level 1 to 5, and at higher skill multipliers (8x, etc.). More advanced tweaks to your suits and vehicles become less and less powerful, and require more and more SP as you go deeper into the skill tree. This is by design. Whether the skill is worth it to you is a personal decision, but it was overpowered and now it is not. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 595	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:08:00 - [215] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: why should I skill level 5 ROF if it's not going to, mathematically, help me in any way. Because math differs to practical use... Yes IF the ads and the av player do everything at the exact first possible moment it all counts for nothing, but in practice that doesn't happen, people have to fly, move and aim (among other things.) An extra anything is going to help in certain rare circumstances, be it against another dropship and LAV getting into the redzone... An infantry player running into a building... Or just maybe you didn't fly perfectly and ended up pointing the sight at the guy just slightly before you could have fired with lvl 4. MEDICO RITARDATO wrote: #CRYBABYTHREAD Now give me likes. Te Sbundo!
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:16:00 - [216] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. Ok, so with that being the case, why does a Prototype suit cost more than a Standard suit? Why does an ADS hull cost more than a fully fitted infantry suit? You have said yourself that ISK is not a balancing factor, so why is ISK even needed? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2936	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:19:00 - [217] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Skills are intended to use diminishing returns, from level 1 to 5, and at higher skill multipliers (8x, etc.). More advanced tweaks to your suits and vehicles become less and less powerful, and require more and more SP as you go deeper into the skill tree. This is by design. Whether the skill is worth it to you is a personal decision, but it was overpowered and now it is not. oh, but it's not a personal decision. i've asked every pilot i know, along with a few AVers. not a single one would go level 5 in it. and from my ground time along with my math, i can tell you that people skilled into their dropsuits because it was worth it. people skilled into proto AV because it was worth it. people skill into reload speed, proficiency, and ammo capacity for AV because it was worth it. this isn't some personal opinion, like you say. it's the math of it. i'm asking for the same thing AVers get with their skills, to be worth it. that shouldn't be such a horrible thing to ask for. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2936	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:42:00 - [218] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Because math differs to practical use... Yes IF the ads and the av player do everything at the exact first possible moment it all counts for nothing, but in practice that doesn't happen, people have to fly, move and aim (among other things.) An extra anything is going to help in certain rare circumstances, be it against another dropship and LAV getting into the redzone... An infantry player running into a building... Or just maybe you didn't fly perfectly and ended up pointing the sight at the guy just slightly before you could have fired with lvl 4. "in certain rare circumstances". i can safely assure you that i haven't ran across any situations where my ROF saved me. i've had situations where my shield recharge saved me, where my core grid management saved me, and where my shield tanking has saved me. aside from that, you answered this question before, saying you had level 3, and wouldn't even bother touching it. did something change? R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7132	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:44:00 - [219] - Quote Oh my god this thread. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4462	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:45:00 - [220] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. Ok, so with that being the case, why does a Prototype suit cost more than a Standard suit? Why does an ADS hull cost more than a fully fitted infantry suit? You have said yourself that ISK is not a balancing factor, so why is ISK even needed? I have explained this as well. ISK is not a balancing factor, as in, you do not use it when balancing gear. But you set the ISK price based on it's place in the game balance. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 16:57:00 - [221] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've answered your question already. ISK is not a balancing factor. Ok, so with that being the case, why does a Prototype suit cost more than a Standard suit? Why does an ADS hull cost more than a fully fitted infantry suit? You have said yourself that ISK is not a balancing factor, so why is ISK even needed? I have explained this as well. ISK is not a balancing factor, as in, you do not use it when balancing gear. But you set the ISK price based on it's place in the game balance. ISK is not a balancing factor; everything is equally effective (for its level); some things cost vastly more than others. This is illogical. What is the purpose of something costing more ISK? Why is that important in any way if everything is balanced? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4465	Posted - 2014.10.29 17:42:00 - [222] - Quote Many things are goofy from the old way of doing things. Generally, ISK should be fairly representative of a thing's effectiveness in battle. Better things should cost more. ISK still obviously has a point, because there are tiers of items. But ISK cost is a result of balance, not an input justification to balance. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1066	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:08:00 - [223] - Quote To be clear, I'm leaving this here for the benefit of you lot. http://youtu.be/8qb-h0sXkH4 How to balance cloaks.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:25:00 - [224] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Many things are goofy from the old way of doing things. Generally, ISK should be fairly representative of a thing's effectiveness in battle. Better things should cost more. ISK still obviously has a point, because there are tiers of items. But ISK cost is a result of balance, not an input justification to balance. So that is essentially full circle and completely counter to your previous statement. If ISK is needed to represent effectiveness, and affects how much a certain piece can be used, *that is using ISK as a balance point.* What you have asserted is that ISK is a part of the balancing; if something costs more, it should be more effective is essentially the bottom line. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4466	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:28:00 - [225] - Quote No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:45:00 - [226] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. If they are not linked in both regards then there is no purpose of the ISK system. The point of limiting the amount of ISK a player receives is to limit how much of an item that player can use. If that is not the case, then every item costing 1 ISK would not be a problem: that is not the case, ISK is given out on a limited basis such that the more expensive items cannot be used without thought. A player cannot use all-PRO gear for nearly as long or with as care free thought as all-STD gear. If this statement weren't true, there would not be a need to limit the gain of ISK. So, if ISK is important to limit the volume of any given item, then it is a part of the balancing process. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. Then why is ISK at all needed? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4468	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:52:00 - [227] - Quote I am now giving up on this thread. Which is fine, because it was a bad thread to begin with. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 18:58:00 - [228] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I am now giving up on this thread. Which is fine, because it was a bad thread to begin with. Well, it's fantastic that we have someone with such backbone on the CPM. I'm so glad someone can twist and turn so much even politicians would be proud... Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4469	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:00:00 - [229] - Quote I did not twist and turn at all. Your inability to comprehend the issue is not my problem, as I have exhausted multiple attempts to explain it to you. You cannot explain things to a brick wall. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 597	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:07:00 - [230] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Because math differs to practical use... Yes IF the ads and the av player do everything at the exact first possible moment it all counts for nothing, but in practice that doesn't happen, people have to fly, move and aim (among other things.) An extra anything is going to help in certain rare circumstances, be it against another dropship and LAV getting into the redzone... An infantry player running into a building... Or just maybe you didn't fly perfectly and ended up pointing the sight at the guy just slightly before you could have fired with lvl 4. "in certain rare circumstances". i can safely assure you that i haven't ran across any situations where my ROF saved me. i've had situations where my shield recharge saved me, where my core grid management saved me, and where my shield tanking has saved me. aside from that, you answered this question before, saying you had level 3, and wouldn't even bother touching it. did something change? It's RoF, it's offensive it helps you get an extra shot in sooner rather than later, it's not meant to keep you alive like regen/hp/hardeners/movespeed... I also said I wasn't going above lvl 3 before when it was 50% so no, still no changes. Unless you're asking that the base fire rate of small turrets be reduced simply so that people with high sp can still have an advantage over everyone else (including other vehicles, which get no bonus for anything) then yes I might have to get to lvl 5 if I'm not interested in branching out into many different roles as I currently do, which for many lvl 3 is sufficient. I also don't have proficiency in small turrets (heck only missiles are above lvl 3 opperation, for everything else there's loyalty points.) I don't have more than lvl 3 ads skill (what is it 2 or 3% damage for small turrets? who needs it.) or assult rifle proficiency above lvl 3... They're all very small bonuses that really only give you a meaningless advantage over other people doing the same thing... Are you sure being able to fire slightly faster than another dropship or Tank/LAV fitted with small missile turret hasn't helped you at all and wont in the future?

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17549	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:13:00 - [231] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I've brought it up in other balance threads: ISK is generally perceived as not wanted as a balance mechanic. ISK cost limits the sustainability of ADSs (even post-Delta, though now HAVs are actually more expensive when similarly fitted.) What it boils down to is either: ISK is a balance factor such that more expensive gear is more powerful (PRO equipment is a prime example - it is flat out superior than the lower tiers, and has an appropriately high cost attached) ISK is not a balance factor and so nothing should cost more than 1 ISK, ever. Isk is not a balance factor; it is a flow control factor and for those in power the price of the ADS is pocket change they can lose 100 a day and not care. Making a militia rifle 1 million isk does not make it balancing factor. Making an ADS 10 isk does nothing to change its power either. the only thing it changes is how frequently you see said items CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 597	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:13:00 - [232] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: No, it doesn't run counter to anything I've said. You simply aren't comprehending what I am explaining. I will try one more time. You can base ISK cost on effectiveness. You cannot base effectiveness on ISK cost. You realise the two are not independent of each other right? Also the effectiveness of AV is now balanced the same as the effectiveness of vehicles... So tanks/ads need a price drop to be in line with other proto suits.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:21:00 - [233] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I did not twist and turn at all. Your inability to comprehend the issue is not my problem, as I have exhausted multiple attempts to explain it to you. You cannot explain things to a brick wall. Sure. You said ISK is not a factor, yet refuse to acknowledge that it is an intrinsic part of the game that has been an element of the balance since the beginning. You say ISK is not a factor, but the game says otherwise: SP multiplier, damage and other metrics of effective define how much ISK it costs - that in and of itself does not mean much, but when coupled with the ISK generation mechanics, you have a method to restrict access to more powerful equipment. Restriction of access to certain assets is, therefore, a method to balance out the power of different pieces. Or, to put it simply, ISK is a balance mechanism. Really, I guess the point I'm driving at is that ADSs are not worth the ISK nor the SP cost, as voiced by pretty much every pilot I've spoken to and most pilots I've seen on the forums. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4470	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:22:00 - [234] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Also the effectiveness of AV is now balanced the same as the effectiveness of vehicles... So tanks/ads need a price drop to be in line with other proto suits. You are assuming tanks and ADSes are equivalent in effectiveness as proto suits. The ADS did receive a price drop with Delta. Had it not been nerfed, it would've needed a price increase, in fact. Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Really, I guess the point I'm driving at is that ADSs are not worth the ISK nor the SP cost, as voiced by pretty much every pilot I've spoken to and most pilots I've seen on the forums. This may be their biased opinion, but the data does not agree. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13924	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:40:00 - [235] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Also the effectiveness of AV is now balanced the same as the effectiveness of vehicles... So tanks/ads need a price drop to be in line with other proto suits. You are assuming tanks and ADSes are equivalent in effectiveness as proto suits. . Please CPM-sama don't let them drop the prices on vehicles further. Please oh please don't. These new vehicle users are weak they complain about ISK and poverty but they don't really remember...... They don't remember the times when a good vehicle cost 1.5-2 Million ISK. Good times, good times. GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 599	Posted - 2014.10.29 19:43:00 - [236] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: You are assuming tanks and ADSes are equivalent in effectiveness as proto suits. Fair enough, comparing a suit and a vehicle on anything other than kdr (which is about the same, since you get matches where an ads noob dies more than he kills and an infantry player can go 30 + for 1 or even 0 deaths... Plus the complete opposite for both...) But how about you compare a 350k ads with missile launcher to a 20k blaster LAV... You wanna tell me the LAV doesn't plow infantry with ease, while actually having an easier time of avoiding those pesky swarms? Edit- This is ignoring the whole LAV rail sniper, who can actually sit well out of range while popping headshots into an objective among other areas.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 842	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:18:00 - [237] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Really, I guess the point I'm driving at is that ADSs are not worth the ISK nor the SP cost, as voiced by pretty much every pilot I've spoken to and most pilots I've seen on the forums. This may be their biased opinion, but the data does not agree. As Derpty and Derrith have been talking about, the ROF bonus is extremely expensive and yet provides a very limited bonus to actual effectiveness. Having spoken to Judge and gotten only a small portion of his analysis of the data, I would very much for you to present something greater than, "Because data." Another [Data Analysis] thread would be extremely insightful. Maybe the 1.9 rendering fixes will help, but quite simply the Swarm changes have made ADSs incredibly vulnerable to even the most rudimentary AV; the most basic swarm fit is of enormous threat because of so many factors that have been ignored by Rattati and people like yourself because the 'data' doesn't support it. How much data is gathered about impulse effects? How much data is gathered about shots that go wild because an infantryman at 100m is barely a speck to an ADS pilot? What about the sheer inability to acquire and return fire on a target at 100m+ when you're taking enormous damage, being slapped about and being unable to even see the target, let alone hit within 2m to actually threaten them. If ISK is relative to effectiveness then Swarms need to be increased in cost by an enormous amount: they are extremely effective and yet extremely easy to use. The other inclination is to make the ADS actually usable whilst under fire. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2939	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:23:00 - [238] - Quote @ Derp, ROF is for helping you kill, this is true. but in this repect, it also helps you survive. case in point, two people are in battle, both weapons do the same damage, and their builds are the same, but one persons ROF is a little better. who wins? but on to my point. i'm not asking for a higher raw ROF for turrets, i'm asking that our ROF per level be noticeable for it's (not 10%, don't get your panties in a bunch). on movement, the only place i've been able to accurately factor that in is ADS vs maddy, and that's because of the back and forth technique (buys min 4 seconds), so not really. and the problem i have there is missiles is anti armor, and max ROF can't break the rep cycles of dropsuits/tanks. we're only a threat to idiot tankers. and on you not having any sort of need to devote yourself to a role, am i the only the one with an issue on this? not trying to criticize, but not needing to devote yourself to a role is kind of stupid to me. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4477	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:41:00 - [239] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: As Derpty and Derrith have been talking about, the ROF bonus is extremely expensive and yet provides a very limited bonus to actual effectiveness. Again, this is by design. Look at infantry skills which offer 3% reload rate increase. Some of the fitting optimization skills require two ranks just go get you 1 PG back. High-tier skills are extremely expensive and provide a very limited bonus. This is by design game-wide, but the ADS RoF bonus was a broken exception to the rule. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1246	Posted - 2014.10.29 20:52:00 - [240] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Nothing in this game should ever "maintain" a KDR of 43. Ever. Interesting point. how many kills per game then, for a dropship over 20 games is a 43 KDR? And how does that compare based on kills and P and L to a Swarmer? Yes, this is the problem with expensive toys, if we try to balance on ISK then we have insanely OP expensive ones. I have argued that the price if vehicles should drop much more to eliminate this mindset. It has some validity as an argument but is it consistent with ISK expenditure differences in the rest of the game. A proto weapon costs 40X what a STD one costs but is only 10% more effective. How much more effective should an ADS be, which I think you are saying costs 11X, then its counter? If the argument is SP or ISK investment then argue to change that because there is no way to balance expensive things if we can buy power. I am well aware of the difference between quantitative and qualitative analysis but we need some objectivity and a metric to rely on. Because, that's why.



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