You should complain how the men are tall and well built, with an even and powerful frame.

It's wrong to want "perfection" in "perfect" combat clones, am I right?

I agree that the women avatars in this game are grossly overdone but to be fair, if the difference was not made big and clear, people would be complaining that the females look the same as the males and that Dust has been completely asexualised.

That said, they are ridiculous. Why would a female soldier's armor be shaped externally to the shape of her breasts? If this was the most effective bullet protection shape, the men would be using it too. If the flatter male shape is most effective, everyone would use that. And the stupid wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!

Question is though - if there needs to be a well defined visual differentiation between the sexes in Dust, how should it be represented?

Lofl youre kidding me right? Youre seriously focused on the fact that they gave the female avatars definition? What you want? A super dyke butch female built and carrying dumbbells? Its a game we stereotype females as having nice figures.

You want a fat girl? Perhaps double d's with a beer gut and a limp? Throw in a black eye? Not all men are built the way they're portrayed in this game, we don't whine. Although some of us do have jobs and visit the gym regularly.

Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.

Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.

Blue striped and Pink striped.... wait that's for baby showers.

You do understand that cloning technology has come to a point where you can look like what ever you want?
So please tell me who wouldn't make him/herself the image of a perfect man/woman.

Please dont get me started on society. It has so many issues. This is merely perceptive, im fairly confident they just said "this is how a woman walks" not "BAM!!! DAT ASS" just pick something else lol.

I'd rather "play" with a live woman.

To be honest, I wouldn't have said that they were overtly sexualised. The Heavies still lumber around carrying their HMGs and their Forge guns. In fact, during a game, I can't usually tell if any given character is male or female.

I'll certainly take another look, now that you've mentioned it, but I think that dust is considerably better than most games at treating both sexes equally.

In real life, women and men wear the same fatigues, armour and use the same equipment. It's generally very difficult to tell them apart from their male colleagues without seeing their faces or hearing them speak.

In Dust, ALL the characters models, have helmets and are silent. Therefore to match real life, there should just be one character model for each class. However, rather than being lauded for it's realism, that would have the game labeled as sexist for only allowing male characters.

It's not that the female suits are just the usual embarrassing gamer fan service made by guys for guys (although they are), it's that female players aren't given a choice. Be a ridiculously sexualised clone, limit your choices of dropsuit, or be a man.

The only person who really gains anything from this is the hypothetical idiot teenage gamer who really does get hype about a metallic ass swinging around wildly, and **** that guy.

I think the question here is exactly related to this ^

Is this what we have here a representation of a ideal/ perfect woman? And the implications of that viewpoint into things like;
If I'm not like that, then should I try to be more like that?
If that figure is what is perfect/desireable and I'm not like that, then I'm not perfect/desireable?

But anyhows.... This is just game, a entertainment. We each pass on time doing/looking vierd things to pass out time and entertain our self.

It's not that the female suits are just the usual embarrassing gamer fan service made by guys for guys (although they are), it's that female players aren't given a choice. Be a ridiculously sexualised clone, limit your choices of dropsuit, or be a man.

The only person who really gains anything from this is the hypothetical idiot teenage gamer who really does get hype about a metallic ass swinging around wildly, and **** that guy.

There's so much fail in this topic I don't even know where to start. The only non-sexist argument in favour of these suits I've seen is the commentary on Gallente culture.

SO,

After a couple years of school, and some amazing instructors, I have begun to develop and refine my perception of sociocultural interactions and the scaffolding they occur within. One of my perceptions that has undergone a changing and reattenuation of its lens is that of our media and its representation of women.

Now my question to both you, the beta players and the developers of Dust 514, is what do you think of the overtly sexualized female character models? The accentuated breasts, the apparent necessity of the female character models to go into combat in high heel wedge boot, or the obvious need for the models to swing their hips in a sexy saunter while the male models are able to calmly strut around? Does anyone find this strange? Mildly sexist? Especially when, if one takes a moment to think about it, would not want their mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt or any other women of regard in their lives to be portrayed in said like manner.

I could be going out on a limb by making a grand generalization as that, but I feel that I am not that far off base.

SO, if you have an opinion about this, I would love to hear it. I think this is a relevant today, given how, through our inundation via mass media and technology, we are constantly enculturated and socialized with what are the socially and culturally acceptable forms of representation of self and others, how we choose to interact with those identities, and what level of empathic understanding we apply to them. This is to be inclusive of socializing the behavior of objectification for the purpose of commodification so as to produce and accumulate material wealth.

Kind of like killing for profit. Maybe it's not so bad since we are clones? But do you think realistically a woman would want to make sure to sway her hips while int he process of preparing to go into combat and commit mass murder? I mean really?

And the ... wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!

as a Man

I must ask how come they are not wearing some sorta space bikinis?

Cause thats how I picture all women in my head anyway.

First off you have to understand the decisions behind the adjustments between male and female.

For example female skeletons are very different from males. They cope with movement differently.

Also there is psychological selling point.

To better explain this aspect I'll present to you Mr. Afro Sam Jackson. African American sort of person, all dressed up like a thug from the hood in his 'blinging' ride. To not sell this image at all would to have this character voiced by the whitest nerdy voice you can think of. Dust 514 doesn't give player characters a voice of their own other than the death grunt and breathing so the only other visual indicator left from afar is movement.

So back to dust 514. We have the issue of throwing women into the same suits as the men and giving them the same animations and model. How can you tell they are female other than the designation on their ID card?

Enlarged Breasts, a very natural organ most females have, is something that isn't very comfortable to squash them into the extremely flat required position onto the body in the pressurized augmented dropsuit?

Pressure suits are extremely uncomfortable, if our current ones we use in NASA causes nails to be torn off in the gloves can you imagine what abrasions you can get if you squash an organ like that? Another example is the US army is finding out that Small Body armor traditionally designed for men is still getting women killed (blame goes to the body armor when the body armor fails to do its job in the prescribed environment where it should have worked) because the vests inefficiencies are not accounting for the fact women's bodies ARE different.

Bottom line, we could have kept it the generic male clones around but that is not appealing to female characters wanting to play their gender or men wanting to play as females.

While you may argue sexualizing the female characters, why are you not complaining about sexualization of the male characters?

speaking as a female player, the female suits dont really bother me, the reason i have a male suit is simply because i created this character before female was even an option.

i understand that there are strong opinions on the reprisentation of women in video games, and to be fair, dust is quite tame by comparison to some out there!

I like it. I've seen women walk like that before. If I were female, I'd walk like that 24/7.

I'm pretty sure a woman in death Armour would want to be comfortable, that means making space for those lovely things in front.
And how do you know when the suit comes off she isn't vomit inducing?
Ill be honest apart from the scout I never even notice if its a woman

I agree that the women avatars in this game are grossly overdone but to be fair, if the difference was not made big and clear, people would be complaining that the females look the same as the males and that Dust has been completely asexualised.

That said, they are ridiculous. Why would a female soldier's armor be shaped externally to the shape of her breasts? If this was the most effective bullet protection shape, the men would be using it too. If the flatter male shape is most effective, everyone would use that. And the stupid wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!

Question is though - if there needs to be a well defined visual differentiation between the sexes in Dust, how should it be represented?

Lofl youre kidding me right? Youre seriously focused on the fact that they gave the female avatars definition? What you want? A super dyke butch female built and carrying dumbbells? Its a game we stereotype females as having nice figures.

You want a fat girl? Perhaps double d's with a beer gut and a limp? Throw in a black eye? Not all men are built the way they're portrayed in this game, we don't whine. Although some of us do have jobs and visit the gym regularly.

Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.

I think the question here is exactly related to this ^

Is this what we have here a representation of a ideal/ perfect woman? And the implications of that viewpoint into things like;
If I'm not like that, then should I try to be more like that?
If that figure is what is perfect/desireable and I'm not like that, then I'm not perfect/desireable?

But anyhows.... This is just game, a entertainment. We each pass on time doing/looking vierd things to pass out time and entertain our self.

Calm down Tzaar, she is trying to fix the game. And she's trying to have a civilized and well thought out debate over this particular issue because I think everyone agrees the female clones look silly.

OP why did you bring this cancer down upon us?

^ This, I've run around battle fields and haven't noticed if a player was female until I ran past their corpse or got up close and personal with my SMG. Personally I think if you're paying that much attention to whether you're fighting a male or female suit on the battlefield then you're likely detracting from your overall gaming experience not to mention you're probably not dodging much either trying to keep them in frame.

Compared to many other games Dust barely sexualises their models at all. I mean how sexy can you really be in the end when every inch of your merc is clad head to toe in armour with a helmet stuck on their head? Yes the female suits have accentuated breasts but females have breasts and lets be honest it is the easiest way to tell a female suit from a male one instantly. Secondly As for the heels I can really barely see them, you don't see them as you play and you don't really see them as you walk about in your quarters. The only real time you see them is if you're following some one around the waiting room or happen to be staring at a teammates feet as you run around to which I have to say that you'd be focusing on that wayyyy too much and you probably have some sort of foot fetish. And yes they do have sway in their hips but that is considered a feminine trait, you will find watching a fair few women walk they have some degree of sway.

This is my thing if you(a female) were to create a character yourselves body type and all 95% of woman will make themselves look like they just came out of a fantasy playboy issue as they do with mosy MMO games..


When do you ever see a FAT GIRL representation of themselves, Most will create someone who in there eyes they wanna be..
Im sorry but i feel that this is the way of the world today same as a male 95% of the time you wont find a guy creating a skimp ass version of themselves you know, There gonna be buff with some overbearing voice and a new persona...When there a fat kid with glasses and soprano toned voice,

viewing it as a sexist act kinda contradicts and has a hint of sexism in it anyway i mean unless your american(which i am) most woman are petite and are very sexual people, you would be underminding yourselves to potray yourself as anything less,

not to mention it brings unification to the table like a uniform school cant make jokes if you all look the same no? just saying

Here I thought that this thread would produce an intelligent discussion within these forums, but all I have seen are continued examples of how consumer culture has continued to invade and twist social perceptions through their commodification of reified female sexuality and sexual traits.

The world should have ended on Friday.

This is my thing if you(a female) were to create a character yourselves body type and all 95% of woman will make themselves look like they just came out of a fantasy playboy issue as they do with mosy MMO games..


When do you ever see a FAT GIRL representation of themselves, Most will create someone who in there eyes they wanna be..
Im sorry but i feel that this is the way of the world today same as a male 95% of the time you wont find a guy creating a skimp ass version of themselves you know, There gonna be buff with some overbearing voice and a new persona...When there a fat kid with glasses and soprano toned voice,

viewing it as a sexist act kinda contradicts and has a hint of sexism in it anyway i mean unless your american(which i am) most woman are petite and are very sexual people, you would be underminding yourselves to potray yourself as anything less,

not to mention it brings unification to the table like a uniform school cant make jokes if you all look the same no? just saying

Here I thought that this thread would produce an intelligent discussion within these forums, but all I have seen are continued examples of how consumer culture has continued to invade and twist social perceptions through their commodification of reified female sexuality and sexual traits.

The world should have ended on Friday.

Why does sex sell should be what you are asking? Why are so many companies using beautiful women to sell there products?

Because it works!

To be honest, I wouldn't have said that they were overtly sexualised. The Heavies still lumber around carrying their HMGs and their Forge guns. In fact, during a game, I can't usually tell if any given character is male or female.

I'll certainly take another look, now that you've mentioned it, but I think that dust is considerably better than most games at treating both sexes equally.

In real life, women and men wear the same fatigues, armour and use the same equipment. It's generally very difficult to tell them apart from their male colleagues without seeing their faces or hearing them speak.

In Dust, ALL the characters models, have helmets and are silent. Therefore to match real life, there should just be one character model for each class. However, rather than being lauded for it's realism, that would have the game labeled as sexist for only allowing male characters.

That is a cop-out. So just because we are attempting to entertain ourselves, this sort of behavior is OK to perpetuate? I have issues with your logic. It may require you to further explain yourself.

Ah, nice straw man, so murder is ok in a video game but perpetuating attractive female avatars to further sell your product isn't?

That is bollocks. Women of today have been socialized into those behaviors and perceptions and your active participation in the perpetuation of those kind of perceptions is a bit appalling. The thing is that is doesn't all rest in the laps of men; women also participate in the perpetuation of such objectification.

And because you are American, and as Americans we tout this idea that every one is equal; that our country is equitable, yet you promote this idea that as Americans it is only natural (and thereby a performance of our desire to fulfill our perceived reified ideals) for American's to act in this manner.
I am dumb founded by you skewed logic and I fear for any and all women in your presence.

This is YET ANOTHER example of what we should fear about this line of thought. You seem completely unable to be reflective in your thoughts and actions. Again, do you want your mother, daughter, sister, aunts, or even your wife to be hypersexualized, objectified, commodified, and then sold?

I

And anyone who thinks it's okay to justify this representation of women because these clones would be based on the model of the "perfect woman" is simply wrong - they would be modeled on the "perfect female soldier" who most probably wouldn't have huge breasts and walk with the wibbliest wobbliest hips ever seen (because that simply wouldn't be practical for combat!).

SO,
Does anyone find this strange? Mildly sexist?

No because its a fictional game, depicting fictional, athlete ised , idealised versions of human beings. Action movie humans if you will.

Nobody expects you to look like that.

I mean this is the nicest possible way:

If you genuinely think this is an issue with Dust 514, I suggest you stop playing Dust and re-prioritise. There are much bigger fish to fry in the endless sex war debate. For example; the portrayal of women in glossy magazines, soap operas and advertising.

While I'm sure you eager to flex you new found analytical muscles, and it must be nice and empowering for you, a beta forum for a game is a terrible place to conduct a qualitative study on gender perceptions. Its not empirical, and you just come across is one of those tools who did a 101 class in first year who pretend to be an authority on -insert social science here- on the internet. Its not impressive, and smacks of the worst kind of academic arrogance.

So. From what I understand this is the majority of the issues, simplified:

Men don't have inflated breast plates that show off, and protect, their imaginary tig-ol-bitties.

Women have these things for their tig-ol-bitties. Making them over-sexualized.


Men don't "sway" with the way that they walk. It's just "asexual". (Which I find total BS because they swing their shoulders which SHOULD have the same damn complaints if you want to cry about swaying in the women. Because not all men walk like that...only the "manly man")

Women do sway their hips thus making them objects of sex in our eyes. Not all women walk like that except the "womenly women"


Solutions:

1. None. Unless you just keep the curve bodies for women and allow for them, no matter the size, to have flat chest plates. That or have customization but oh wait. We're in a beta and I doubt that would even be a focus until it's about to be put out.

2. Simply just find a manner in which all characters walk. No shoulder swinging, no hip swinging, just walking.


Never expected Dust to get the "hyper-sexualization" stick because I mean really...wtf focuses on the women models, who are fully clothed and shaped according to their roles by the way (e.g. heavy), while we're fighting a battle?

I never thought "wow that's pretty hot". Actually I've thought "Oh wow. That's a female...nice ass." And kept going. >_> You can say that "hyper-sexualization" but P sure women could say the same thing about the men models and they wouldn't have an issue.

Hyper-sexualization is when you have things GROSSLY sexualized. I'm talking half naked, unfair representation (Being honestly it's fairly "unfair" representation with the manly men and womenly women), and extra sexy movement (which has been proven to not actually be stimulating enough for men to be able to tell them apart).

Of course. The only thing that's holding this back is customization. I'll agree that we're limited but DO NOT KITTEN SAY THIS GAME IS OVER-SEXUALIZED WHEN A MAJORITY OF PLAYERS CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MODELS MOST OF THE TIME.

Crack is wack, and smoke is a joke. Get good and adapt or die.

Really??? So are you a deeply misunderstood transsexual? ... don't use it as a shield or a means to justify demeaning behavior.

NOPE. People such as yourself are what help continue the race and gender wars that continue to plague humanity. I like the game, and I enjoy a lot of the other interactions that come with it, but that doesn't mean that I should except STEREOTYPES.

TBQH I find your sexist and obviously homophobic statements to be DISTURBING. You did read what you typed out BEFORE hitting the send button, right? ... And why do you feel the necessity to be such a blatantly misogynistic bigot with your gay bashing comments? Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Honestly though I think your response is analogous of what a hegemonic order does to those that find fault in the status quo; attack, discredit, demoralize, and if all those don't work, co-opt commodify and commercialize.

Everyone should just shut the hell up this is an unnecessary thread, OP should be glad CCP even bothered to put female models in the game because its not like it actually improved the game and no the models don't look stupid they look like females in amour which obviously looks strange as in real life women don't even fight on the front lines because they are the weaker sex whether you like it or not and if the female models didn't look like females what would be the point in putting them in the game anyway ??

Overall I don't think this is an issue at all considering that the men and women in the media are complicit with the whole thing. Think about it. Why do women act the way they act in soap operas? Why do women dress and pose the way they do in magazines? Why do women cosplay (sexually) the way they do in gaming and anime conventions? I have seen plenty of women do that in conventions. A friend of mine told me he saw a hot girl dressed in nothing more than a special kind of body latex paint to cosplay as an anime character. And I was thinking to myself... "wow, I never expected to see so many women who are willfully complicit with the whole concept of how the ideal woman would look like".

I see the same thing with men who in Men's Health Magazine, People Magazine, Time Magazine, films, TV shows, etc. in which men are complicit with the concept of how the ideal man would look like.

None of these willing participants were forced into doing what they do. They do it because they find that they are good at it or it makes them money or brings them fame.

This is why I don't see the sexualization of men and women as an issue anymore because everyone is in on it. What's the point of going to church to confess your sins if you have nothing to confess?

Why do women cosplay (sexually) the way they do in gaming and anime conventions? I have seen plenty of women do that in conventions.

No because its a fictional game, depicting fictional, athlete ised , idealised versions of human beings. Action movie humans if you will.

Nobody expects you to look like that.

I mean this is the nicest possible way:

If you genuinely think this is an issue with Dust 514, I suggest you stop playing Dust and re-prioritise. There are much bigger fish to fry in the endless sex war debate. For example; the portrayal of women in glossy magazines, soap operas and advertising.

While I'm sure you eager to flex you new found analytical muscles, and it must be nice and empowering for you, a beta forum for a game is a terrible place to conduct a qualitative study on gender perceptions. Its not empirical, and you just come across is one of those tools who did a 101 class in first year who pretend to be an authority on -insert social science here- on the internet. Its not impressive, and smacks of the worst kind of academic arrogance.

In terms of how we are genetically born and evolved in real life, I agree that women are technically weaker than men. Women do have the option of building themselves up body wise through rigorous exercise and hormone treatments. But those efforts hardly change anything in the woman's genes unless...

1. Every man wants to start doing it with muscular women like Spartans did. Keep in mind that Spartan women were raised to be equally tough as well. It was believed that only a Spartan woman can give birth to REAL men. That's how tough Spartan women were.

or

2. Scientists figure out how to manipulate the genes of a women to make them equally strong as men while still retaining their beauty (maybe in 500 years).

No because its a fictional game, depicting fictional, athlete ised , idealised versions of human beings. Action movie humans if you will.

Nobody expects you to look like that.

I mean this is the nicest possible way:

If you genuinely think this is an issue with Dust 514, I suggest you stop playing Dust and re-prioritise. There are much bigger fish to fry in the endless sex war debate. For example; the portrayal of women in glossy magazines, soap operas and advertising.

While I'm sure you eager to flex you new found analytical muscles, and it must be nice and empowering for you, a beta forum for a game is a terrible place to conduct a qualitative study on gender perceptions. Its not empirical, and you just come across is one of those tools who did a 101 class in first year who pretend to be an authority on -insert social science here- on the internet. Its not impressive, and smacks of the worst kind of academic arrogance.

oooookaaay

...

I wouldn't have gone with anime conventions, I would have gone with the hot girls @ clubs (like Vegas/NYC) who just wear paint. I like paint.

Also Wrote stuff countering stuff written

Women being merc doesn't even make sense - our weapons are so powerful it kills people without our armor who uses it - yet a girl can wield it fine. I would think female armors would have physical enhancers to them or would be required of them to be able to hold there weapons. But let's focus on there breast sizes instead and how they walk.

<3 these forums

Women being merc doesn't even make sense - our weapons are so powerful it kills people without our armor who uses it - yet a girl can wield it fine. I would think female armors would have physical enhancers to them or would be required of them to be able to hold there weapons. But let's focus on there breast sizes instead and how they walk.

<3 these forums

These are engineered clones. They've already been enhanced. So no, they wouldn't need enhancers.

@Iron Wolf

That's nothing from Terra. You should see Bayonetta. Hell of a strip show that game is.

May I lay this on the table.

Why did the greeks and other ancient sculptors have most of their human statues nekkid?

If you see anything beyond "red dot" "red dot" "red dot", I'm sorry to say, you're doing it wrong.

@Iron Wolf

That's nothing from Terra. You should see Bayonetta. Hell of a strip show that game is.

Be a ridiculously sexualised clone, limit your choices of dropsuit, or be a man.

Really? May I ask what within my comments you considered sexist?

Guess what, girls love that game, fyi

This is my thing if you(a female) were to create a character yourselves body type and all 95% of woman will make themselves look like they just came out of a fantasy playboy issue as they do with mosy MMO games..


When do you ever see a FAT GIRL representation of themselves, Most will create someone who in there eyes they wanna be..
Im sorry but i feel that this is the way of the world today same as a male 95% of the time you wont find a guy creating a skimp ass version of themselves you know, There gonna be buff with some overbearing voice and a new persona...When there a fat kid with glasses and soprano toned voice,

viewing it as a sexist act kinda contradicts and has a hint of sexism in it anyway i mean unless your american(which i am) most woman are petite and are very sexual people, you would be underminding yourselves to potray yourself as anything less,

not to mention it brings unification to the table like a uniform school cant make jokes if you all look the same no? just saying

Actually Kazeno, you are the one making this stereotype into a big deal. No one else, not anyone at CCP or otherwise intended to "oversexualize" them as see it. However, let me bring your attention to this.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSaZXKCZiT-_pRB_x6mvOYjiuUzAt8WDJ7mBhcFEmjpFkfMZ1RXA


Now remember, only for research ;). But I could totally see this female in a Gallente Scout armor fitting perfectly. Now you want some "research"for any other points as well?

No because its a fictional game, depicting fictional, athlete ised , idealised versions of human beings. Action movie humans if you will.

Nobody expects you to look like that.

I mean this is the nicest possible way:

If you genuinely think this is an issue with Dust 514, I suggest you stop playing Dust and re-prioritise. There are much bigger fish to fry in the endless sex war debate. For example; the portrayal of women in glossy magazines, soap operas and advertising.

While I'm sure you eager to flex you new found analytical muscles, and it must be nice and empowering for you, a beta forum for a game is a terrible place to conduct a qualitative study on gender perceptions. Its not empirical, and you just come across is one of those tools who did a 101 class in first year who pretend to be an authority on -insert social science here- on the internet. Its not impressive, and smacks of the worst kind of academic arrogance.

I find this thread to be far beyond the point in which most of the people playing this game would like to think. I on the other hand will debate your points and the statements of others.

Yes this game sexualizes women, but it does the same thing to men. The argument of the game is, we are using genetically enhanced men and women. You have to think of this universe as a spartan world, in which anyone at birth that seemed week was cast from a mountain to their death as an infant. This is the universe that you play in. So for men to be designed the way they are makes sense they must be strong and alpha, they are beyond fit and probably taking muscular enhancers. So the way they are designed makes sense. You may not like it, but it is CCP's universe that they have created, set into motion, and made the vastly large and differentiating back ground stories. From slavery to an over zealous religious worlds. These are worlds made by people with their own views and beliefs but by no means does that mean if you are uncomfortable here should you play this game.

Now as far as women go it sits almost in the same place. These are clones that are created in the same manner. So yes their parts will be overly defined in the same manner as the men are. They also enhanced as well. When you enhance a woman to make them stronger they usually take on a masculine aspect , one that most women would not like to be portrayed as. So in a sense CCP has tried to find a middle ground in which fits their own story and fits the personal views of the women who would like to play this game. Yes I am aware that not all women would like to be portrayed in this manner. But women have breast and as the world goes they are not getting any smaller, and if you increase hormones into a women's body these parts get larger by nature. Again these hormones are used in this world for women and men so they are going to have large breast. Now the sway cannot be defined by any back ground info of the game, but I would like you to take a survey and see which women want to walk like a man and which ones would like to have swagger. The boots are more than likely there also because CCP is trying to make the women happy in this game. I also feel that is is overdone and the military does not issue different boots to women than they do men. But given the statement earlier about armor they might want to look into armor that is more designed for women's body style. Which in turn might give them a more female look. That is to be determined.

As for you fight against the way we are portrayed, you might want to center it on both male and females because we are both stereotyped on this game. Men just have a logical and proven reason for looking and walking the way we do. Yet the way women walk and are their boots has more to do with the way they want to see themselves and the way society would like them to look. Their armor and their physic has logical and proven reasons for looking the way they do. The truth of the matter is if this is how a woman wants to look it is none of you business how they look as long as they are respectable in a public manner then it should not matter to you.

I as a person am very liberal and how you choose to act or portray yourself in a private setting is your own choice. I also feel that there is an amount of respect that should be put out for yourself and those around you when you are in public, given the setting in which you are in. My wife, mother, sister, and many of my female friends are very sexual and have a crude and no holds bar verbal personality. It is no way my right to tell them this is wrong and that they should not act or be this way as long as they hold a respectable manner when one is in the situation that this should be done.

If I had my way, I'd make the female models have bigger breasts and a bigger ass. It's a personal preference. I do not mind that others may want male models to have a larger phallus, or phallic bulge. Again, it's a personal preference.

Who are you to tell me what is acceptable to like?

And don't finish with an ad hominem, those reliably say more about you than them.

Do you have even the slightest idea how hard you just failed?

You've constucted quite a strawman there. Kaz was addressing the representation of women in Dust. Not glossy mags or TV ads. Neither was Kaz attempting to conduct a study on the issue.
If you're going to offer a critique of someone's position, make sure that's what you address in it.
And don't finish with an ad hominem, those reliably say more about you than them.

The argument that "this is what the perfect woman looks like" is both the most common, and the most sexist I've seen in this thread. It is made all the worse for the fact that most of the folk who use it don't realise just how bad it is.

Dear Chunky Munkey,

You didn't make any arguments in favour of the current female dropsuits.

Other types of logic not to use in a debate.

Slipperly Slope (ie: if we allow gays to marry then well be allowing people to marry animals)
Illogical Casualties (ie: if we ban guns we'll save children in china)
Illogical Analogies. (ie: His policy is like a litter box!)
Circular Logic (ie: God or Man, who invented who)

I think the females should be more realistic. They should have less prominent breasts and normal boots. They should have a weaker melee attack, less stamina and any weapon they use recoils more. One final touch of realism is that they shouldn't be fighting on the frontlines at all.

I think the females should be more realistic. They should have less prominent breasts and normal boots. They should have a weaker melee attack, less stamina and any weapon they use recoils more. One final touch of realism is that they shouldn't be fighting on the frontlines at all.

Calm down Jenza he isn't work the isk. May I suggest stabbing him?

I find it hilarious how the OP is trolling all of you with complex words that usually wouldn't be found in the average person's vocabulary. Furthermore, I find it even funnier that he's perpetuating a so-called "gender war" between all of you.

Just shut up and let CCP do the work.

Also, if you didn't realize, its all based on your race. Gallente is a western liberal nation that tends to portray women in a promiscuous fashion, whereas Amarr is a modest nation, for example like Afghanistan, and keeps their women in modest clothing. Just keep making the links.

I honestly think they should keep Samus Aran from Metroid Prime in mind when designing the female character. Or the female Spartans from Halo.

Calm down Jenza he isn't work the isk. May I suggest stabbing him?

hey Hey Hey HEY HEY!

No stealing my ideas!

I remember when people thought Samus was a guy and nobody beat metriod yet.

I think I was the first one in my class to beat it and starting telling other people about it. nobody believed me for the longest time.

Wait, the women in DUST are overtly sexualized?

lol, you must have the decency standards of the Amish.

I'm glad you have expanded your mind in college but get off your high horse you stupid prick. This is a dumb thread.



I went to university!

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I must be smart now!


I use big words to prove that I'm smart!

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I'm a giant douche!

You know what? If you really find this oversexualised why don't we all just agree to have the female suits dressed like muslim women. Make them wear a one piece that covers them from head to toe with only a little slit for their eyes, yes that does include covering the helmet. Because really I don't see what you're seeing. I walk down the shops and see mothers walking thier 3-5 year olds around in things you'd catch hookers wearing, I see teenage girls wearing virtually nothing, not to mention what some women wear out clubbing, then you have other games out on the market and really comparing that to all those things this is remarkably tame.

SO,

After a couple years of school, and some amazing instructors, I have begun to develop and refine my perception of sociocultural interactions and the scaffolding they occur within. One of my perceptions that has undergone a changing and reattenuation of its lens is that of our media and its representation of women.

Now my question to both you, the beta players and the developers of Dust 514, is what do you think of the overtly sexualized female character models? The accentuated breasts, the apparent necessity of the female character models to go into combat in high heel wedge boot, or the obvious need for the models to swing their hips in a sexy saunter while the male models are able to calmly strut around? Does anyone find this strange? Mildly sexist? Especially when, if one takes a moment to think about it, would not want their mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt or any other women of regard in their lives to be portrayed in said like manner.

I could be going out on a limb by making a grand generalization as that, but I feel that I am not that far off base.

SO, if you have an opinion about this, I would love to hear it. I think this is a relevant today, given how, through our inundation via mass media and technology, we are constantly enculturated and socialized with what are the socially and culturally acceptable forms of representation of self and others, how we choose to interact with those identities, and what level of empathic understanding we apply to them. This is to be inclusive of socializing the behavior of objectification for the purpose of commodification so as to produce and accumulate material wealth.

Kind of like killing for profit. Maybe it's not so bad since we are clones? But do you think realistically a woman would want to make sure to sway her hips while int he process of preparing to go into combat and commit mass murder? I mean really?

So is it sexist of me to look at the female avatars and say to myself "id hit it"

The argument that "this is what the perfect woman looks like" is both the most common, and the most sexist I've seen in this thread. It is made all the worse for the fact that most of the folk who use it don't realise just how bad it is.

You should complain how the men are tall and well built, with an even and powerful frame.

It's wrong to want "perfection" in "perfect" combat clones, am I right?

The female suits are clearly over sexualised I think we should even it up and whack a larger bulge on the male suits and some perky buttocks, it's only fair.

Male "perfection" is good for combat, while "perfection" for females is completely irrelevant for combat. Having nice boobs and walking in a sexy manner in no way helps you in combat. Look at athletic females in the Olympics; that is the kind of "perfection" needed for combat, not "look how hot she is" perfection.
I don't understand how someone can come up with such a crappy argument and not see the flaws.

Dear Chunky Munkey,

Wonders if Chunky Munkey even knows what an ad hominem logic is.

Other types of logic not to use in a debate.

Slipperly Slope (ie: if we allow gays to marry then well be allowing people to marry animals)
Illogical Casualties (ie: if we ban guns we'll save children in china)
Illogical Analogies. (ie: His policy is like a litter box!)
Circular Logic (ie: God or Man, who invented who)

Wait, the women in DUST are overtly sexualized?

lol, you must have the decency standards of the Amish.

I'm glad you have expanded your mind in college but get off your high horse you stupid prick. This is a dumb thread.



I went to university!

|
|
v

I must be smart now!


I use big words to prove that I'm smart!

|
|
|
v

I'm a giant douche!

You have mistaken my comment on perfection as one of looks. My perfection model was one based on the ability to do the job of a merc.

Lets all calm down and all agree that Kazeno Rannaa's ideal woman (should he ever find one) will be flat of chest, small of hips with absolutely no sway to her hips and will dress in nothing but turtle necks and jeans. Because anything more seems to be an unrealistic and over sexualised view of women.

Once again I still fail to see what alot of people are complaining about. Go to your local shopping centers, spend at even a minute looking around and I guarantee you will within seconds find a girl dressed far more provacatively than this. If you find many women doing it then I have a feeling that oh I dunno... maybe that women dress that way in this day and age. Look at half the damn shows on TV they have women dress far more provacatively. You'll find a dropsuit that just follows a normal womans curves and the fact she has a very hip swaying walk is the least of your concerns.

Worry about something that matters like the mothers dragging around their toddlers in miniskirts, knee high boots and fur jackets. How do you think they'll grow up? I worry more about real life things than oh that girl in this game looks way too sexualised despite the fact I can't even tell it's a female suit when I'm too busy shooting in the game to even notice until I go to Tbag her corpse.

Way to miss the point entirely.

Miss the point? You're the one making to much out of it, read again, my point is clear, You're saying that Dust women are oversexualised, my point is that look around, real life, women these days dress alot more provacatively for you to call this oversexualised compared to everyday life, TV, and other games in general is a joke.

In fairness, I think the point that Chunky Munkey and the OP are trying to make is that sexism is bad and that something being 'less sexist' than something else doesn't make it okay.

Also, that if the female character models are 'oversexualised' then that is sexist. If this is the case, then do we want to be a part of propagating a sexist game? I'd say no, and that this is the correct time to discuss and possibly change things.

Personally, I don't agree that the female character models are 'over-sexualised', and I don't think a change is warranted.

I understand what you're saying and agree being sexist is bad, but at the same time really look around at how women dress today. I just can't fathom how people think the women in Dust are oversexualised when women themselves, real women choose to dress in a far more provacative and sexualised way.

You can't seriously think these are accurate representations of athletic women.

Also granted since their isnt any flesh behind these suits just circuitry it could be argued that you dont need a male/female variant of anything because the perfect soldier shape wouldnt be a a two armed two legged human but some 6-8 limbed creature that could multitask at a much greater level.

Miss the point? You're the one making to much out of it, read again, my point is clear, You're saying that Dust women are oversexualised, my point is that look around, real life, women these days dress alot more provacatively for you to call this oversexualised compared to everyday life, TV, and other games in general is a joke. I will admit though I got off topic at the end.

Congrats on adding something constructive to the discussion.

There is flesh these are clones rather than androids or whatever, funny this topic is still going when there is a much bigger issue, wheres the homosexual suit? I want to be able to mince along looking fabulous with my wrist bent in a stereotypical fashion.

Listen, I just asked a female in my corp and she said that "games don't even offer female avatars. And, us, girls like to look sexy when we shoot you in the face".

So, if girls aren't upset and they like it...why are we making a stink about it??

Listen, I just asked a female in my corp and she said that "games don't even offer female avatars. And, us, girls like to look sexy when we shoot you in the face".

So, if girls aren't upset and they like it...why are we making a stink about it??

The point, was that there is a disparity between the representations of men & women in this game. Pointing out examples of this happening elsewhere adds nothing to the conversation.
The case you are making, is akin to saying we don't have to worry about problems in our own countries/homes/lives, just because those problems are worse in other countries etc.

we do have pink suits?

I'm male and I chose to make my character female because I genuinely like characters I make being female, not just because it's something to look at.

I am displeased with how the females walk. I am also displeased with out there seems to be more emphases on the breasts than there really should be (The armor there should be more armor-like and less spandex-like.) I am most displeased that they are in high heels. What the **** is up with that?

Though, I am very glad that females aren't characturized and the models themselves are pretty realistic considering that these are enhanced clones. I am also glad that they aren't actively sexualized and the is no cleave holes in the armor which most games would probably do.

I really hope that Eves character creation system is included in dust so we can actually improve our characters how we like... Though that'd put a lot of stress of the servers as well as our PS3s... At least have it for MQs.

You should complain how the men are tall and well built, with an even and powerful frame.

It's wrong to want "perfection" in "perfect" combat clones, am I right?

SO,

After a couple years of school, and some amazing instructors, I have begun to develop and refine my perception of sociocultural interactions and the scaffolding they occur within. One of my perceptions that has undergone a changing and reattenuation of its lens is that of our media and its representation of women.

Now my question to both you, the beta players and the developers of Dust 514, is what do you think of the overtly sexualized female character models? The accentuated breasts, the apparent necessity of the female character models to go into combat in high heel wedge boot, or the obvious need for the models to swing their hips in a sexy saunter while the male models are able to calmly strut around? Does anyone find this strange? Mildly sexist? Especially when, if one takes a moment to think about it, would not want their mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt or any other women of regard in their lives to be portrayed in said like manner.

I could be going out on a limb by making a grand generalization as that, but I feel that I am not that far off base.

SO, if you have an opinion about this, I would love to hear it. I think this is a relevant today, given how, through our inundation via mass media and technology, we are constantly enculturated and socialized with what are the socially and culturally acceptable forms of representation of self and others, how we choose to interact with those identities, and what level of empathic understanding we apply to them. This is to be inclusive of socializing the behavior of objectification for the purpose of commodification so as to produce and accumulate material wealth.

Kind of like killing for profit. Maybe it's not so bad since we are clones? But do you think realistically a woman would want to make sure to sway her hips while int he process of preparing to go into combat and commit mass murder? I mean really?

I don't see the problem here. There's a general suit build for each type of suit. It would be ridiculous for each suit to be specialize for women's breast size. That's not realistic. Now I do relize we are it the future and you can create the perfect clone but thatill probably be done away with if they let us customize our clones.

Once again I still fail to see how breasts, and a rather hip swaying walk can possibly be be that bad but somehow you'll take offense to anything it seems. So I'm done with this now, you're the one averting your eyes from the fact that due to the way women interact and dress socially does change the way the world looks at things thus looking into this game from the outside people would then with this new perspective would say compared to other things and games I've seen this isn't bad at all. Because for the last time really how much of a difference between the two suits are there? Very little, save for breasts and a hip swaying walk.

Eww boobies! Isn't that where cooties are emitted?

SO,

Blah Blah **** and stuff Blah Blah

Breasts are obviously necessary to depict a grown woman, and a different skeletal structure means that a different walk is also required. Once again you seem to be missing the point. These things aren't the issue. The issue is that all male suits are all painfully vanilla, ordinary athletic men. Meanwhile, the only way CCP seems capable of depicting a female equivalent is "**** & ass".

It troubles Kaz, myself, and many others, that this seems to be the best the gaming industry can offer. Dust's depiction of women is not comparable to the likes of Tomb Raider, Grand Theft Auto, or Dead Or Alive.
You only need look at the hassle the TR reboot got for trying to depict both a realistic & attractive woman to seenwhat the rest of the world thinks of this industry.
GTA is a commentary on our own society, and our own society contains such flaws.
And finally, no self-respecting male plays DOA games for the gameplay.

This has to be the dumbest thing ever.Any women that is famous ie movie star,singer has done something in the way of cosmetic surgery to her body.Some type of body modification,lipo suction,breast implants,no jobs ,face lifts,eye wrinkle removing.It has nothing to do with sexism at all.It has to do with what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye.For all of you who look down at CCP's scout as sexism you need to watch GI Jane again.When Demi Moore is working out.Look at her body.That is what the female form looks like when its devoted to exercise and physical conditioning.Am I wrong to find that appealing?I think not.The OP needs to get real.
Weather thick,chubby,short,or tall.I love all women....BECAUSE they're effeminate and feminine.

*wonders if im the only RL girl who has posted thoughts on this....*

*wonders if im the only RL girl who has posted thoughts on this....*

*wonders if im the only RL girl who has posted thoughts on this....*

After reading and posting in this thread I went online and googled and searched pics of the Olympic women contenders.

These female avatars are depicted rather well as women, outside of the walk which looks like either their suits are to tight or they have a stick in their butts. lol.

These women have slender frames, a basic hour glass shape, decent size breast, decent sized rears, rather thicker shoulders for your average woman(which is usually a sign of athleticism). They actually look some what athletic. At a runners/stamina stand point these women by their virtual look and my own experience as a runner look like they could smoke probably at least 85% of the people playing in this beta.

I was contemplating on this thread and games over doing women's sexual physical identities. CCP had two roads to take in the category of the female body. They could have gone the over athletic female figure which as an athlete I can tell you is a very hard body type to achieve, and most who try cannot get there just do to body style and genetics. Which is sexiest in itself because this promotes the same feelings as a Barbie. I can't look like that and I should look like that or I am not pretty.

Or they could have taken the road that they have taken the cross between athleticism and general average women. In the Gallente suit the avatars body is more noticable, but if you look she does not have a completely flat stomach she actually has a stomach that is there not in a completely wash board abs style. Good sized breast a good sized rear, but they are not over done they are on the average size. Which the women who can never achieve this shape will fill the same way as the category before.

Then they could have taken the third route which does not put women into the game at all. This again is sexist, because it promotes the thought that women are not competent enough to perform on the battle field.

So in conclusion of the choices where would you have like them to have gone with this game. Which route would you have taken. All are sexiest in there own right by your definition of over sexualizing women. I feel that CCP has taken the middle road with this everyone was not going to be happy you can't make them all happy if you try you will only go mad.

On a final note towards the game listed, I am a self respecting man and I loved DOA it is by far one of the most complicated and hardcore fighting games ever made. The combos, counters, grab, and counter grabs are so advanced and responsive that if performed by an advanced players can go on for 15 to 20 seconds before someone even deals damage. These women were oversexualized but was looked past by me and many others(not payed any attention to when you are trying not to lose)do to the complexity and the large amount of skill needed to even be good at this game. These games are still mocked and laughed at due to the way they depict women, even given how good of a game it was by women, men, and gamers alike to this day.