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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
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Posted - 2012.12.23 08:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
SO,
After a couple years of school, and some amazing instructors, I have begun to develop and refine my perception of sociocultural interactions and the scaffolding they occur within. One of my perceptions that has undergone a changing and reattenuation of its lens is that of our media and its representation of women.
Now my question to both you, the beta players and the developers of Dust 514, is what do you think of the overtly sexualized female character models? The accentuated breasts, the apparent necessity of the female character models to go into combat in high heel wedge boot, or the obvious need for the models to swing their hips in a sexy saunter while the male models are able to calmly strut around? Does anyone find this strange? Mildly sexist? Especially when, if one takes a moment to think about it, would not want their mother, grandmother, daughter, sister, aunt or any other women of regard in their lives to be portrayed in said like manner.
I could be going out on a limb by making a grand generalization as that, but I feel that I am not that far off base.
SO, if you have an opinion about this, I would love to hear it. I think this is a relevant today, given how, through our inundation via mass media and technology, we are constantly enculturated and socialized with what are the socially and culturally acceptable forms of representation of self and others, how we choose to interact with those identities, and what level of empathic understanding we apply to them. This is to be inclusive of socializing the behavior of objectification for the purpose of commodification so as to produce and accumulate material wealth.
Kind of like killing for profit. Maybe it's not so bad since we are clones? But do you think realistically a woman would want to make sure to sway her hips while int he process of preparing to go into combat and commit mass murder? I mean really? |
Bhor Derri
Legion of Eden
95
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 08:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
lolwut? |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1899
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 08:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
You should complain how the men are tall and well built, with an even and powerful frame.
It's wrong to want "perfection" in "perfect" combat clones, am I right? |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 08:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
First off you have to understand the decisions behind the adjustments between male and female.
For example female skeletons are very different from males. They cope with movement differently.
Also there is psychological selling point.
To better explain this aspect I'll present to you Mr. Afro Sam Jackson. African American sort of person, all dressed up like a thug from the hood in his 'blinging' ride. To not sell this image at all would to have this character voiced by the whitest nerdy voice you can think of. Dust 514 doesn't give player characters a voice of their own other than the death grunt and breathing so the only other visual indicator left from afar is movement.
So back to dust 514. We have the issue of throwing women into the same suits as the men and giving them the same animations and model. How can you tell they are female other than the designation on their ID card?
Enlarged Breasts, a very natural organ most females have, is something that isn't very comfortable to squash them into the extremely flat required position onto the body in the pressurized augmented dropsuit?
Pressure suits are extremely uncomfortable, if our current ones we use in NASA causes nails to be torn off in the gloves can you imagine what abrasions you can get if you squash an organ like that? Another example is the US army is finding out that Small Body armor traditionally designed for men is still getting women killed (blame goes to the body armor when the body armor fails to do its job in the prescribed environment where it should have worked) because the vests inefficiencies are not accounting for the fact women's bodies ARE different.
Bottom line, we could have kept it the generic male clones around but that is not appealing to female characters wanting to play their gender or men wanting to play as females.
While you may argue sexualizing the female characters, why are you not complaining about sexualization of the male characters? |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
285
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 08:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:You should complain how the men are tall and well built, with an even and powerful frame.
It's wrong to want "perfection" in "perfect" combat clones, am I right?
Perfection in a soldier is not high heels & swaying hips.
Kaz;
As much as I agree with your post, "The female clone design is juvenile." Probably would have been enough.
I don't understand why CCP thinks Kelly Brook would make a better base for a supersoldier than, say, Jessica Ennis. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
219
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
I agree that the women avatars in this game are grossly overdone but to be fair, if the difference was not made big and clear, people would be complaining that the females look the same as the males and that Dust has been completely asexualised.
That said, they are ridiculous. Why would a female soldier's armor be shaped externally to the shape of her breasts? If this was the most effective bullet protection shape, the men would be using it too. If the flatter male shape is most effective, everyone would use that. And the stupid wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!
Question is though - if there needs to be a well defined visual differentiation between the sexes in Dust, how should it be represented? |
Tzaar Bomba
Doomheim
174
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lofl youre kidding me right? Youre seriously focused on the fact that they gave the female avatars definition? What you want? A super dyke butch female built and carrying dumbbells? Its a game we stereotype females as having nice figures.
You want a fat girl? Perhaps double d's with a beer gut and a limp? Throw in a black eye? Not all men are built the way they're portrayed in this game, we don't whine. Although some of us do have jobs and visit the gym regularly.
Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I agree that the women avatars in this game are grossly overdone but to be fair, if the difference was not made big and clear, people would be complaining that the females look the same as the males and that Dust has been completely asexualised.
That said, they are ridiculous. Why would a female soldier's armor be shaped externally to the shape of her breasts? If this was the most effective bullet protection shape, the men would be using it too. If the flatter male shape is most effective, everyone would use that. And the stupid wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!
Question is though - if there needs to be a well defined visual differentiation between the sexes in Dust, how should it be represented?
Blue striped and Pink striped.... wait that's for baby showers. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
285
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:Lofl youre kidding me right? Youre seriously focused on the fact that they gave the female avatars definition? What you want? A super dyke butch female built and carrying dumbbells? Its a game we stereotype females as having nice figures.
You want a fat girl? Perhaps double d's with a beer gut and a limp? Throw in a black eye? Not all men are built the way they're portrayed in this game, we don't whine. Although some of us do have jobs and visit the gym regularly.
Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.
Do you have even the slightest idea how hard you just failed? |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
219
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:
Point being its only a game stop worrying about the cosmetics and stereotypes, play and enjoy and help fix the damn thing.
Calm down Tzaar, she is trying to fix the game. And she's trying to have a civilized and well thought out debate over this particular issue because I think everyone agrees the female clones look silly. |
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Odiain Suliis
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
112
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Django Quik wrote:I agree that the women avatars in this game are grossly overdone but to be fair, if the difference was not made big and clear, people would be complaining that the females look the same as the males and that Dust has been completely asexualised.
That said, they are ridiculous. Why would a female soldier's armor be shaped externally to the shape of her breasts? If this was the most effective bullet protection shape, the men would be using it too. If the flatter male shape is most effective, everyone would use that. And the stupid wibbly wobbly hips thing? No one walks like that!
Question is though - if there needs to be a well defined visual differentiation between the sexes in Dust, how should it be represented? Blue striped and Pink striped.... wait that's for baby showers.
So I gather this would be female Kestrel? :) And no this ain't coming to EVE. |
Anyanka Shadowmane
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
To be honest, I wouldn't have said that they were overtly sexualised. The Heavies still lumber around carrying their HMGs and their Forge guns. In fact, during a game, I can't usually tell if any given character is male or female.
I'll certainly take another look, now that you've mentioned it, but I think that dust is considerably better than most games at treating both sexes equally.
In real life, women and men wear the same fatigues, armour and use the same equipment. It's generally very difficult to tell them apart from their male colleagues without seeing their faces or hearing them speak.
In Dust, ALL the characters models, have helmets and are silent. Therefore to match real life, there should just be one character model for each class. However, rather than being lauded for it's realism, that would have the game labeled as sexist for only allowing male characters.
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 09:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
at least they don't bounce like some grenades. |
Kasshern s Chrome
SyNergy Gaming
47
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 10:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
i would say that its kinda a double edge sword your playing with, a women has breast and as all the male suits its one size fits all correct? so the female suit wise breast piece would have to accomodate for all sizes you know what i mean an as for the sway of the hips naturally that is most womens poise that is there natural way i would say its more sexist for you to think in that way on the other hand i understand where you see a issue |
Tzaar Bomba
Doomheim
174
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 10:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
There's no issue. This is just like the battlefield 3 fiasco. They had no african american model so they replaced the american medics caucasian skin for african american skin. Which wasnt a huge deal, im just not seeing why everyone cares so much about that kind of stuff, its not real. Getting offended over something so trivial is rediculous. |
Anyanka Shadowmane
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 10:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Okay, having had another look I still can't tell male from female during a game. I suppose it's possible that I didn't see any female characters. Watching one slink around the mercenary quarters, you're right. The female character model does sway more in the hips, while the male sways more in the shoulders.
I could just about see the wedge boots on the character models in the fitting screen, I wonder if their inclusion was as an effort to feminise the character model or, if it was to keep both models fitting the same size, but allow for female proportions in the design... Probably a bit of both. The heel does seem to change size with the suits, it's not there at all on the heavy suit. In fact, the heavy suit is virtually the same as the male version.
So yeah, it seems to me that the suits are filled with what 'society' considers to be idealised figures of a male and a female.
I think the design of Dust does quite well at putting those figures in similar combat gear.
Do the female character models walk in a manner that society deems to be attractive?
Yes, but then so does the male. I don't bull around shoulders first like a stereotypical alpha male, but that is what society deems is an attractive quality in a man.
Is this a problem with society? Possibly, but that's not an necessarily a discussion for these forums.
Is this a problem with Dust? I don't think so ( maybe they could dial in the hip sway). |
ArMaGeDoN The Cat
Systems Federation
Coalition of Galactic Unity
157
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
You do understand that cloning technology has come to a point where you can look like what ever you want?
So please tell me who wouldn't make him/herself the image of a perfect man/woman. |
Tzaar Bomba
Doomheim
174
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Please dont get me started on society. It has so many issues. This is merely perceptive, im fairly confident they just said "this is how a woman walks" not "BAM!!! DAT ASS" just pick something else lol. |
Odiain Suliis
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
112
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote:You do understand that cloning technology has come to a point where you can look like what ever you want?
So please tell me who wouldn't make him/herself the image of a perfect man/woman.
I think the question here is exactly related to this ^
Is this what we have here a representation of a ideal/ perfect woman? And the implications of that viewpoint into things like;
If I'm not like that, then should I try to be more like that?
If that figure is what is perfect/desireable and I'm not like that, then I'm not perfect/desireable?
But anyhows.... This is just game, a entertainment. We each pass on time doing/looking vierd things to pass out time and entertain our self. |
Anyanka Shadowmane
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:Please dont get me started on society. It has so many issues. This is merely perceptive, im fairly confident they just said "this is how a woman walks" not "BAM!!! DAT ASS" just pick something else lol.
Lol, I agree.
However, as far as making this game ready for public release, if the swaying hips is a problem for a large number of players, then this is the time and the medium to discuss it. :-) |
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Aneatanga Taniwha
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
I really don't see a problem with the female characters of this game. Male and female skeletons are different, plus you should be able to tell the genders apart now shouldn't you? I think the physical builds for women in this game are fair, and there is no sexism in this game, although I have mistaken some heavy suit wearers for men when in fact they were women... |
BestNameEva
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
maybe you should go play dead or alive |
Aneatanga Taniwha
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'd rather "play" with a live woman. |
BestNameEva
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Aneatanga Taniwha wrote:I'd rather "play" with a live woman.
who wouldn't, but once thats done, on with the virtual joy |
BestNameEva
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 11:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm pretty sure a woman in death Armour would want to be comfortable, that means making space for those lovely things in front.
And how do you know when the suit comes off she isn't vomit inducing?
Ill be honest apart from the scout I never even notice if its a woman |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 12:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
The most noticeable is the scout suit, a Gallente design. The Gallente do over sexualize things, almost a caricature of western liberal nations. A Gallente, male or female, might worriy his gun clashed with his dropsuit and by a aur gun to colour coordinate. The Gallente have transparent clothing for that matter.
The breast and hips look about normal proportion to me, not over sized. The buttocks is a muscle, so large size still fits for a fit person. The breasts are covered in layers of form fitting armour, basically have the effect of padding. Making it look a cup size or two bigger then the human tissue underneath. Steroids also cause breast growth. We can't see the muscle definition under that armour, they probably do have definition in muscles like the track athlete mentioned above.
The heavier suits and more modest culture would be less "sexy" then the Gallente scout. Amarr heavy is same model for both for instance, armour thick enough to make changes internally and a more modest culture. Many normal Gallente street cloths would get the wearer arrested in Amarr empire. The Minmatar suit is more functional, you have to look close to tell it's a woman under all the gear.
I would like to have option of choosing what animation to use for movement, female model with male animation would be perfect in my opinion. In EvE/fallout and other games that allow customizing proportions, I made the female avatar look more butch, broad shoulders, small breasts, shaved head/punk hair, lots of muscle, buttocks about the same as Gallente scout. I would expect most female mercs would not go full amazon* and get breast reductions if they they had choice.
*amazons in greek myth cut off one breast to be better archers, apparently it can get in the way. |
BestNameEva
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 12:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
I will never look at Xena the same again ^ |
NovaShadowStorm
The Southern Legion
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 12:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Anyanka Shadowmane wrote:To be honest, I wouldn't have said that they were overtly sexualised. The Heavies still lumber around carrying their HMGs and their Forge guns. In fact, during a game, I can't usually tell if any given character is male or female.
I'll certainly take another look, now that you've mentioned it, but I think that dust is considerably better than most games at treating both sexes equally.
In real life, women and men wear the same fatigues, armour and use the same equipment. It's generally very difficult to tell them apart from their male colleagues without seeing their faces or hearing them speak.
In Dust, ALL the characters models, have helmets and are silent. Therefore to match real life, there should just be one character model for each class. However, rather than being lauded for it's realism, that would have the game labeled as sexist for only allowing male characters.
^ This, I've run around battle fields and haven't noticed if a player was female until I ran past their corpse or got up close and personal with my SMG. Personally I think if you're paying that much attention to whether you're fighting a male or female suit on the battlefield then you're likely detracting from your overall gaming experience not to mention you're probably not dodging much either trying to keep them in frame.
Compared to many other games Dust barely sexualises their models at all. I mean how sexy can you really be in the end when every inch of your merc is clad head to toe in armour with a helmet stuck on their head? Yes the female suits have accentuated breasts but females have breasts and lets be honest it is the easiest way to tell a female suit from a male one instantly. Secondly As for the heels I can really barely see them, you don't see them as you play and you don't really see them as you walk about in your quarters. The only real time you see them is if you're following some one around the waiting room or happen to be staring at a teammates feet as you run around to which I have to say that you'd be focusing on that wayyyy too much and you probably have some sort of foot fetish. And yes they do have sway in their hips but that is considered a feminine trait, you will find watching a fair few women walk they have some degree of sway. |
Snaps Tremor
Doomheim
19
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Posted - 2012.12.23 12:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
It's not that the female suits are just the usual embarrassing gamer fan service made by guys for guys (although they are), it's that female players aren't given a choice. Be a ridiculously sexualised clone, limit your choices of dropsuit, or be a man.
The only person who really gains anything from this is the hypothetical idiot teenage gamer who really does get hype about a metallic ass swinging around wildly, and **** that guy. |
Beld Errmon
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
479
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 12:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
The female suits are clearly over sexualised I think we should even it up and whack a larger bulge on the male suits and some perky buttocks, it's only fair.
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