Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing.

Its not complex enough

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

Who says CCP is going for the average Joe? If they wanted that crowd they would be concentrating on dumbing down EVE. CCP is still a company driven by passionate game makers, and while they obviously strive for commercial success they still concentrate on making games they like, not on making games accessible to the masses.

They have a sizeable fan base just sitting here waiting for the deep and complex experience promised us, any simplification or dumbing down will turn us all away. If you want CoD go play CoD but please don't try and argue for why Dust should be more like it.

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

Its not complex enough

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need.

I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming.

Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve.

Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking.

Kill this thread. You dumb this down me and all my friends quit.

You dumb this down me and all my friends quit.

Kill this thread. You dumb this down me and all my friends quit.

I really dont want to sound mean but maybe watching TV would be more you.
Dont take away the only shooter that needs a little thinking now and again.

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

Explain to me what "thinking" is required for this game.

Explain how the core mechanics differ from every other FPS out there.

While your at it, explain how having a better, more fluid style of gunplay is dumbing the game down.

Its not complex enough

The thinking is in fitting your suit, vehicle in accordance with how you chose to level up, and doing it effectively. The other fps are "drop in, push start, go".

How is Dust any more complex than any other FPS?

You know how you can manage to compete with CoD? You don't even try. If you make a CoD clone, you will fail, because those who want to play CoD play CoD. They don't want to play another game that is 'like' CoD. The only way to have any success in the shooter market, is NOT to make CoD.

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

There is absolutely nothing complex about any of that. That is no more complex than choosing the correct AR in BF3 using the right gadget to suit your play-style.

I'm still waiting for a detailed answer.

How is Dust any more complex than any other FPS?

How will better core game mechanics dumb the game down in any shape or form?

The game is still in beta and it will grow in complexity even after release

Nice that should be the nail in to coffin for em

The game is still in beta and it will grow in complexity even after release

Explain how. Will I have to do a handstand while pressing L1, R1 to get a kill? Learn tree surgery to be able to capture a null cannon?

Still waiting for all the elitists to give a detailed explanation as to how the core mechanics of Dust are more complex than BF3 or any other FPS.

Have at it people. Let's hear it.

Explain how. Will I have to do a handstand while pressing L1, R1 to get a kill? Learn tree surgery to be able to capture a null cannon?

Still waiting for all the elitists to give a detailed explanation as to how the core mechanics of Dust are more complex than BF3 or any other FPS.

Have at it people. Let's hear it.

Dude your not worth it sorry just move on or hang around and be a troll either is fine with me.

Just write somthing like "see no one has said anything detailed and I am right your all wrong" and bam you win the internets for a day.

Still waiting for all the elitists to give a detailed explanation as to how the core mechanics of Dust are more complex than BF3 or any other FPS.

Why dont you just go back to battlefield? You ignore my response, then continue to cry about no response. Am I mistaken? Or does battlefield make you think about earning money/isk, budgeting said isk so you can afford the skill books necessary to.specialize, all while keeping enough bank roll to afford weapons. Then making sure you skill turrets as well as HAV. Then making sure you dont skill all armor and than go buy a caldari HAV? You have your answer troll, go away.

That's a spectacular way to dodge the question. Just use a blanket statement like "troll" and that will do.

I'm after a genuine discussion.

Explain how. Will I have to do a handstand while pressing L1, R1 to get a kill? Learn tree surgery to be able to capture a null cannon?

Still waiting for all the elitists to give a detailed explanation as to how the core mechanics of Dust are more complex than BF3 or any other FPS.

Have at it people. Let's hear it.

OK, sure, I'll give you a few points of comparison.

Dust will have 1000s of planets to fight on and to possibly own...BF 3 has a handful of maps with no investment opportunity.
Dust has a "real" economy that will fluctuate...Battlefield 3 has none.
Dust has cost and risk management requirements...Battlefield 3 has preset classes that are always there and no risk.
Dust will have more than 10x the customization available to BF3 players including mods,vehicles, equipment, weapons, etc...
Dust will have a Meta-game involving politics, espionage and teamwork...BF3 has nothing of the sort.

Do you get the idea?

Respond to this beast

Respond to this beast

I was about to get to this :)

Yes, those are all great things. Very cool and innovative ideas. I love these aspects of Dust. However, they have nothing to do with the fact that that it's still a point and shoot - capture objectives, meat and potatoes FPS.

That's what I'm asking. How does that differ from a game of Conquest in BF3?

I'm talking about the core gameplay.

That's what I'm asking. How does that differ from a game of Conquest in BF3?

I'm talking about the core gameplay.

I don't understand why we have to "prove" why this game is more complex. The OP is the one who brought up how "hard it is" to understand. Your posting in this thread why? To defend that it's easy?


Like most here I have played/own the COD/BF/Borderland titles. Are they fun? Yup.

BUT I also am looking for an FPS that has a little something extra. DUST has it. Whether you are just trolling or have blinders on and don't want to believe it, ok.

DUST will be the first ever PC/PS3 (Console?) crossover FPS on the market. Groundbreaking.

DUST lets you choose a multitude of suits/modules/weapons to CREATE your character. Does COD/BF3 let you create anything? No... They let you "alter" some things, the rest is how it is, take it or leave it.

Meta game (look it up), enough said.


For all of us that have ever wanted a tactical team based type of FPS, this is also in DUST's wheelhouse.


Basically OP and Beast, your arguments fall on deaf ears. Most posting in here love the depth and complexity that DUST provides. When this game releases, it might not go over like the bigger franchises, it will probably do just what EVE has done. Slowly building a large player base that is extremely loyal that trusts CCP to develop more/better content (fix what they admit they mess up) and will consistently grow.


If you or others like you can't see the potential of this game, nothing anyone says will sway you.

Core shooter gameplay will always be the same. Do you want to have to not point and shoot? Are you asking to roll dice or play a match game, its a shooter.

You could have said this 4 pages ago ..faceplam

No idea this is my first FPS game but its the same all over you shoot somthing and it gets hurt.

Edit: hmmm its a little like saying war is not complex because it is always the same you kill each other.

My beef with Dust is that it doesn't have the core mechanics in place (yet). I find gun-play to be extremely poor at the moment.

OP: you're right.
Let's go about our businesses, and eventually watch as the bloated, purulent rotten floating carcass of this maleodorant mishap of a game attempt passes by the river.

Let the fanboys drill their brains with the idea that they'll enjoy a game that people don't play.
Exactly like eve.

And let us laugh at their stupidity afterwards.

OP: you're right.
Let's go about our businesses, and eventually watch as the bloated, purulent rotten floating carcass of this maleodorant mishap of a game attempt passes by the river.

Let the fanboys drill their brains with the idea that they'll enjoy a game that people don't play.
Exactly like eve.

And let us laugh at their stupidity afterwards.

OP: you're right.
Let's go about our businesses, and eventually watch as the bloated, purulent rotten floating carcass of this maleodorant mishap of a game attempt passes by the river.

Let the fanboys drill their brains with the idea that they'll enjoy a game that people don't play.
Exactly like eve.

And let us laugh at their stupidity afterwards.

Facepalm.... So this was another not understanding its a beta thread.

I'd like to thank you guys who gave genuine replies and left defensiveness to one side.

We all want Dust to be the best game it can possible be. I think it's foolish to ignore what the most popular games are doing and I also think it'd be foolish to not make the game accessible to new players. I'm hopeful there'll be detailed tutorials, mainly because I'd like the game to have a huge community. The more people spending time and money playing the game, the more resources for further development.

In other words: we can have our cake and we can eat it. A spacecake if you will. Hopefully I wont have to pour SP into cake eating skills.

No hard feelings I hope beast, I can be a kitten sometimes. Stick around for release and I am sure you will enjoy.

TL;DR

all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles

ARENA BATTLES
-8v8
-Smaller maps / close quarters maps
-Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match
-Everyone uses Militia gear
-Matchmaking & Customs

Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec.

TL;DR

all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles

ARENA BATTLES
-8v8
-Smaller maps / close quarters maps
-Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match
-Everyone uses Militia gear
-Matchmaking & Customs

Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec.

TL;DR

all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles

ARENA BATTLES
-8v8
-Smaller maps / close quarters maps
-Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match
-Everyone uses Militia gear
-Matchmaking & Customs

Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec.

It will be, something tells me we have not seen all the layers yet. I am sure this rabbit hole goes much deeper.

More depth.

MORE COMPLEXITY

MORE UNICORNS!!!!

Ha! How many hard points do you suppose will be on the Unicorns in the next build?

Who says CCP is going for the average Joe? If they wanted that crowd they would be concentrating on dumbing down EVE. CCP is still a company driven by passionate game makers, and while they obviously strive for commercial success they still concentrate on making games they like, not on making games accessible to the masses.

They have a sizeable fan base just sitting here waiting for the deep and complex experience promised us, any simplification or dumbing down will turn us all away. If you want CoD go play CoD but please don't try and argue for why Dust should be more like it.

Over 9000!!!!!

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/09/17/leaderboard-complexity-vs-simplicity/#continued

Interrreeeeesssttttinnnnngg

I stopped reading here...

Dude your not worth it sorry just move on or hang around and be a troll either is fine with me.

Just write somthing like "see no one has said anything detailed and I am right your all wrong" and bam you win the internets for a day.

You know how you can manage to compete with CoD? You don't even try. If you make a CoD clone, you will fail, because those who want to play CoD play CoD. They don't want to play another game that is 'like' CoD. The only way to have any success in the shooter market, is NOT to make CoD.

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel.

needs more complexity

In other words: we can have our cake and we can eat it. A spacecake if you will. Hopefully I wont have to pour SP into cake eating skills.

I would rather play chess, let ppl who dont want to think and plan as much play checkers.

Why are you so great? We need to squad up sometime.

All these are supposed to exist when the game launches. People with casual in mind will probably end up making their own casual matches anyway.

As for the core mechanic, it's an FPS, the core mechanic isn't what's changing. An FPS is the way it is because it's an FPS. If I pick up a COD title, I can play it fairly easily, and transition to Killzone 3 even though the control schemes and gameplay could be radically different. A gun is a gun. The complexity is not supposed to be altering anything in the core mechanic so that casual gamers can pick it up and play it, it's for everyone else that wants complexity that can enjoy messing around with fits and exploring the Eve universe through Dust.

There is absolutely nothing complex about any of that. That is no more complex than choosing the correct AR in BF3 using the right gadget to suit your play-style.

I'm still waiting for a detailed answer.

How is Dust any more complex than any other FPS?

How will better core game mechanics dumb the game down in any shape or form?

"Too much depth and complexity?"

this is why i like dust...

the complexity and depth is an "idiot filter" for this game

also i like games whitch have a learning curve

The thing is this game is really not complete yet. There are still some features that I've yet to see implemented that could require a lot of thinking. Until then, we are just speculating on the level of complexity required. If I may, perhaps I can answer this gentleman's question.

The core mechanics are that of the unreal engine. That is the core mechanic. I guess we are forgetting that the proper term to use is core features such a player dominated economy just like that of Eve online. Then there is the emergent gameplay which competes against theme park style games like call of duty. Then there is the industry and logistics that will soon be involved with DUST corps. Does that help?

Alright, I'll open with an important point:
I'm not an EVE player.

I've heard of eve, I know a few eve players irl but never gave it a go. It just didn't feel right for me, maybe I'm wrong and I'll love it, but right now I've not played it so the game is a little bit of a mystery to me. I'm an fps player, a ps3 gamer and someone who playse cod, bf3, borderlands, and a buttload of other shooters with friends or casually.

So believe me when I say this game is not complicated.

Installed for free with my PSN Plus account.

played my first game, got a few kills, some sp and some cash.

Had a look in the market. cool I can afford bigger guns and better armour.

Hmmm, I can't use them yet. OK I need to get more skills.

got more skills. can use bigger guns better armour.

played, can take more damage, can deal it out.... can afford bigger guns.... except I also need to buy replacements for the kit I lost in game. OK.

but wait.... if I get more skills I can make the kit I have now even BETTER.... nice.
And how do I drive one of those tank things?
I NEED MORE SKILLPOINTS

My point is that it's easy to get started, easy to figure out what you need to do to get better equipped and once you've got your head around that then it's easy to figure out how to start planning ahead in your skill selections, and when you run out of PG/CPU in your armour you realise that there's more to skilling up than just dealing more damage.

Quite honestly if you can figure out how many headshots you need in cod to get a fancy scope for your m16 then you shouldn't have any problem grasping the "complexiy" of this game. with the advantage that when you've reached your goal you just set your sights higher rather than get bored of knowing that you'll never improve again.

.... Just saying

needs more complexity

The part where things start getting complicated is when you start min/maxing your dropsuit fittings. Same as if you were to play Eve, at first things don't look all that complex, until you start figuring out synergy with certain things, and and the "if I fit things this certain way, then I can also fit this"

That's a whole bag of worms that can cause all kinds of fun.

We're not talking about making Dust into anything. We're talking about LEARNING about what makes those 3 or 4 top tier games the ones people play night after night. We're talking about accessibility, so the servers are full and CCP make a huge profit. We're talking about having top level gun play. We're talking about having a brilliantly balanced, tactical, rewarding game that is fun and has epic moments.

Stop thinking that we want another CoD. We don't. I don't like CoD but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm smarter than people who play those games and I'm certainly not pretentious enough to think that at it's core, Dust is any more complicated.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

People on this forum want the game to be an exclusive club that only they get to play and dominate. Sorry, but it doesn't work this way. F2P games need a big player base that are willing to purchase items and vanity goods to pay for the service and ensure the creators make a profit. Also, to suggest that Dust couldn't learn anything from CoD is madness. People like to deride CoD because it's popular but the simple fact is, it's got the gameplay nailed. It's smooth, takes about 2 mins to get into a game, has fluid, fun gameplay and has the carrot-on-the-stick factor of chasing new equipment down to a fine art. The core gameplay of Dust is no more complicated than any other FPS out there. You point your virtual gun at other people, capture objectives and so on and so forth.

Dust and CoD can be very different, there's nothing wrong with having alot of depth (or alot of skills to sink into). There's also nothing wrong with having a game you can casually sink 20 mins into.

The only thing that troubles me about Dust is how it will manage to cater for newcomers. In every other FPS, newcomers are at no disadvantage, all weapons are pretty much equal. In Dust we have these higher level shields, drop suits, more accurate weapons, players with SP invested into skills etc.

I think this will have to be balanced on release otherwise a large portion of people will be turned off.

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

...games we play when we grow up.

Is the average age of PSN users 27 Howard?

Is the average age of PSN users 27 Howard?

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

They have the game you want out already, Its called "every fps out there 3"


I would rather play chess, let ppl who dont want to think and plan as much play checkers.

Love it

But I was telling a buddy at work that also plays Dust that CCP is not goin for the average joe shmo FPS player. Then he proceeds to say "Dust will die" I laughed and said why is EVE still alive and really popular? EVE operates on and average of 30K players online everyday and up to 60K on most busiest. I've seen it lol. Every game has its "niche" players, EVE players and it seems MAG players REALLY enjoy Dust. Eve players are really most into Dust for planetary control of THEIR assets. Me (EVE player) just love this type of FPS and its so happened to be by a favorite developer.

I can't speak for all MAG vets, but Zipper Interactive tried to make MAG persistent by incorporating contracts for various battlemodes. Honestly, did it affect overall gameplay, if you went through all 3 PMC's? Maybe in Domination, but little else. Dust is attractive to a lot of us, in that there's going to be a measurable result of losses and victories. The COD players can keep their cheap kill streaks and attack dog gimmics.

Totally off-topic, but i'd consider playing a COD game, if Rockstar was in charge.

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

The reason I am here is because of the deep complexity, the plethora of dropsuits, modules, weapon types, tactical warfare, networking, and most importantly having fun with my fellow hard core mercs. I personally have always dreamed of a FPS where the battles mattered long after the match. Where players behaviors and actions were held accountable if they wanted to be respected and trusted amongst there peers. Where player skill tree possibilities are so large and grand in scale that no 2 players are the same. That is why I am here and I'm sure other feel my passion.

Dust is not meant to grab the casual gamer but that doesn't mean CCP should stop trying to being in casual players and turn them into hardcore players.

Is there any particular reason why we can't have both worlds?

Are you happy with the gun-play in Dust as it stands? Do you honestly think the gun-play is as good as other games? Are you honestly suggesting that it would be a bad thing for Dust to run at 60fps and have customisable weapons and fast fluid game-play?

Seriously?

Are you playing the game for stats?

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

I like the complexity of the skills system....but I'm not impressed with the game modes or the player counts in them....

Since playing in battles for hours at a time on Planetside 2, where there were at least 60 vs 60 with tons of armor and aircraft, a battle front that stretched some four hundred metres, I just can't stand the huge dust maps with the hide and seek games that we have at present.

The PS2 battle I refer to was what I spawned into, I played for over two hours in that same battle, on the same battle front trying to push the line forward right up until I stopped playing. The battle no doubt continued without me. The whole concept of "rounds" or matches is out the window. The war keeps going perpetually.

Now compare dust - I play last night and there are games where they are 1 vs 1? Then there are games with up to 12 v 12 but they last for 20 seconds? There were games where the game ended in twenty seconds and the clone counts were like 60/59. Yeah its a beta. I know. So is the other game.

Complexity is great, but its gotta actually work and what worries me about dust is that there are a lot of basic problems even with low player counts and that does not bode well considering the level of complexity that is being built. That complexity is just not going to translate well if the numbers are limited on huge maps.

I think the complexity of Dust is a good thing and I welcome more.

I play BF3 and can say many of us welcome such complexity.

There are a lot of tactically oriented FPSers out there who will eat this game up (if combat is polished more).

I think you can make Dust 514 into a deep and complex game and still make it accessible. In fact we need that. Because we need grunts! There's a good chance that every respectable corp in Dust is going to have a few KDR mentality focused killing machines in their ranks. So the geeks can drop them into a fight and keep the other team bleeding while taking care of objectives.

Make it easy for people to jump into the game and have fun, make it hard to master. What's wrong with that?

I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming.

Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve.

Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking.

We're not talking about making Dust into anything. We're talking about LEARNING about what makes those 3 or 4 top tier games the ones people play night after night. We're talking about accessibility, so the servers are full and CCP make a huge profit. We're talking about having top level gun play. We're talking about having a brilliantly balanced, tactical, rewarding game that is fun and has epic moments.

Stop thinking that we want another CoD. We don't. I don't like CoD but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm smarter than people who play those games and I'm certainly not pretentious enough to think that at it's core, Dust is any more complicated.

Is there any particular reason why we can't have both worlds?

Are you happy with the gun-play in Dust as it stands? Do you honestly think the gun-play is as good as other games? Are you honestly suggesting that it would be a bad thing for Dust to run at 60fps and have customisable weapons and fast fluid game-play?

Seriously?

Are you playing the game for stats?

CoD, BF3, MAG

One of these things is not like the other.

Oh look! Someone who truly does NOT get it quoting someone who does.

DUST is not an FPS. DUST is not an MMO. We should all grieve that they chose to call it the sum of the two.

I believe CCP may not be trying to target every PSN member with DUST and they may not be targeting every FPS player on PSN with DUST. There are a LOT of those. Big market compared with EVE.

I wonder if the more realistic target market is the portion of the PSN FPS market that is 25-35 and looking for the next big thing. That might be a more realistic target market size.

But the cool thing about this business plan is the first and last word in business: Location Location Location

They are opening shop on top of the platform that hosts the whole PSN FPS market. As that big bunch ages they will have had exposure to "DUST", that cool but kinda complex and deep game that's been there while they've been playing CoD, BF3,XQM and whatnot.

If DUST can get a fair start with a moderate sustainable base it will be positioned to have ready access to the incoming player base.

Vikings takeover the world.

First of all "simple" isn't stupid, nor complex = clever.
Dust 514 also is not complex, Dust takes 10 words to say "Hi".
This is not complexity, this is poor design: nothing more.
Everything could be more elegant, more simple (not easy or stupid), more accessible and comprehensible but NO complexity a la EVE must stay even if it will impact negatively the game or alienate players...and for what?
Why cherish this complexity when what ti does is nothing commendable?
Playing Dust does not make you a cleaver person, nor playing COD makes you a stupid person.
Brevity is the soul of the wit and Dust ins't brief nor understands the importance/value of begin brief.

P.S.
Also don't mistake MMO = RPG.
MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online.
Dust is a FPS MMO and EVE is RPG MMO.
If you think MMO = RPG you are simply wrong.

leukoplast said it. DUST has DISADVANTAGES. Besides requireing skill at playing FPS (and skilled players know how to take town proto gear guys with militia gear) you need time (thanks to skill multipliers) and a wider vantage point that extends beyond the battlefield. You have to know your enemies. You have to know that Taz-666 is usually a lone wolf that uses a scout fit in the current build. While Icecream Queen and his fellow booster gang tend to stick together with high grade equipment or tanks.

Dust requires you to adapt. Not only to your playstyle (by choosing skills and gear) but to the moment on the battlefield and the trend in the meta game. Tanks are nerfed? So what do you do? Make a tank killer tank or increase your swarm skills. It is up to you. But the huge disadvantage is: IT IS YOUR CHOICE. You better pray it was the right one, otherwise you are required to learn like everybody else. Things like learning that 66HP more don't make you invincible... just last 2 seconds longer in a CQC and 4 on medium range.

leukoplast Dust is advertised as a FPS MMO, so it should play like a FPS but with hundreds of players per map. (PlanetSide)
The relity is that Dust, as you say, is more a RPG MMO...with poor FPS gameplay attached.
I here have said it many time but in PVP statistical disadvantages have no reason to exist because players' skills should be the main focus but I was ignored.
In the end CCP RPG history/mentality once more was applied to Dust 514 not realizing that what works in RPG like EVE doesn't work at all in FPS.
Now if we look around at what other RPG are doing we see Guild Wars 2, winch is a RPG MMO, and it has now removed statistical disadvantage in PVP bringing the focus on players' skills.
Guild Wars which is a RPG went FPS, so to say, while Dust which is a FPS went RPG.

Playing ps2 during the day and dust in the afternoon and evening, I just can't compare the two....

Ps2 is far better game play, there are no "rounds" or "matches"....

Also the graphics are much better in ps2 than dust...yeah I know its PC but even MAG had better graphics than dust and MAG was considered to be bad graphics relative to other fps like cod and bf3....

Dust needs so much work its amazing that this is beta...

Edit: now that i think about it more, while the skill system is great, even though its complex, in the context of entertaining game play it just doesn't cut through...maybe dust is too much too soon...they may be trying to pull off too much at once and that's why core game play and graphics are suffering, because a lot of time goes into the back end around the skills and market...which is fine by the way.....but if the core doesn't improve it won't matter if the skill system and market are top notch because people won't play in the first place because the core game play and graphics stink....I hope they fix it up and prove me wrong, I really do...

This is what I've been saying all along. Without exciting, focused gameplay I can't see Dust lasting. The upcoming build will reveal alot as far as that side of things is concerned. I don't understand why people are getting so defensive about it all. It's plain as day to see, it's not up to scratch at the moment. Either it's a strange sense of loyalty to CCP (to whom you are doing a disservice) or not having played very many FPS's.

Or perhaps we've played a lot more beta games than you guys, and thus know a bit about how development works?

Stopped reading at "learn from COD".

I doubt it, I've been beta testing games for a good few years now.

and thus know a bit about how development works?

I doubt it, I've been beta testing games for a good few years now.

whats the TLDR of this thread?

Thinking is hard? i got about 2 paragraphs into the OP and my eyes glazed over.

I believe this thread has the record number of facepalms from me

congratulations OP

Tldr is that the skills and market is very complicated and while that is not in itself bad, the core gameplay, graphics and player counts are not good.

Do me a favor and Google beta.

OK.

From Wikipedia.

Alpha

The alpha phase of the release life cycle is the first phase to begin software testing (alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, used as the number 1). In this phase, developers generally test the software using white box techniques. Additional validation is then performed using black box or gray box techniques, by another testing team. Moving to black box testing inside the organization is known as alpha release.[2]

Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. The exception to this is when the alpha is available publicly (such as a pre-order bonus), in which developers normally push for stability so that their testers can test properly. External availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software. However, open source software, in particular, often have publicly available alpha versions, often distributed as the raw source code of the software. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.

Beta

Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.

The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price. Beta version software is often useful for demonstrations and previews within an organization and to prospective customers. Some developers refer to this stage as a preview, prototype, technical preview (TP), or early access. Some software is kept in perpetual betaGÇöwhere new features and functionality are continually added to the software without establishing a firm "final" release.

Open and closed beta

Developers release either a closed beta or an open beta; closed beta versions are released to a restricted group of individuals for a user test by invitation, while open beta testers are from a larger group, or anyone interested. The testers report any bugs that they find, and sometimes suggest additional features they think should be available in the final version. Examples of a major public beta test are:

Open betas serve the dual purpose of demonstrating a product to potential consumers, and testing among an extremely wide user base likely to bring to light obscure errors that a much smaller testing team might not find.

---

OK. So as you can see, alphas have stability issues, data loss and crashes. Sounds familiar. Invalid fittings, anyone? Hard lock, anyone?

Betas are used to test software that is feature complete - read and understand what that means. It means that core functions are ready, but need volume stress tests to identify bugs that cannot be identified internally by the developer due to not having the ability to generate large volumes of test metrics. This is achieved by open or public beta, or by controlled closed beta.

What we have with dust, is software where the core functions are still being refined, but the developer has chosen to move to beta stage despite stability issues in the core which technically mean that what we are testing is a later variant of an alpha build.
The reasoning for this is simple, the software is not yet feature complete, so by definition, it cannot be a beta.

That's going by the book of sdlc.

Come on, you quoted paragraphs of the definition and still got it wrong.

What makes you think that people will wait more time to get from Dust 514 what other games can deliver now...especially with 2 shooter MMO coming in 2013 on console.

I don't feel any loyalty towards CCP, especially after participating to this beta.
If their product is poor I won't wait for them to fix it: it will just play games of developers I trust and let Dust die.

^^^
Gaikai is coming on Playstation and with it eventually PlanetSide 2 which is a SOE game and Sony already brought a SOE MMO on PS3.

You've been trying out demos.

Try again when you've played games for quarter of a century or so.

Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying.

Sorry, but you completely missed my point in a massive, massive way.

What fps beta where you in? It doesnt seem like you understand the process, so I dont think you have been in any.

We compared Dust 514 to good products.
If Dust was good and unpolished I would be happy.
Finished or not Dust lacks the basic.
CCP build this game without having the foundations to sustain it.

So for you we are all testing smoke.
CCP then is doing things far wrong then I thought.

So CCP is letting us test a mock build.
This then means they have mocked us for all these months.

Nice...or rather not.

So CCP is letting us test a mock build.
This then means they have mocked us for all these months.
Nice...or rather not.

Cling to you hopes but betas can't turn common stone into Gold.