DUST Search - Too much depth and complexity? Dust 514's biggest failing.

Tarralis wrote:

Maximus Stryker wrote:

TL;DR

all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles

ARENA BATTLES
-8v8
-Smaller maps / close quarters maps
-Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match
-Everyone uses Militia gear
-Matchmaking & Customs

Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec.

All these are supposed to exist when the game launches. People with casual in mind will probably end up making their own casual matches anyway.

As for the core mechanic, it's an FPS, the core mechanic isn't what's changing. An FPS is the way it is because it's an FPS. If I pick up a COD title, I can play it fairly easily, and transition to Killzone 3 even though the control schemes and gameplay could be radically different. A gun is a gun. The complexity is not supposed to be altering anything in the core mechanic so that casual gamers can pick it up and play it, it's for everyone else that wants complexity that can enjoy messing around with fits and exploring the Eve universe through Dust.

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Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 393	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:24:00 - [91] - Quote TL;DR all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles ARENA BATTLES -8v8 -Smaller maps / close quarters maps -Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match -Everyone uses Militia gear -Matchmaking & Customs Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:25:00 - [92] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: TL;DR all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles ARENA BATTLES -8v8 -Smaller maps / close quarters maps -Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match -Everyone uses Militia gear -Matchmaking & Customs Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec. Brilliant ideas.
Tarralis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 18	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:42:00 - [93] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: TL;DR all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles ARENA BATTLES -8v8 -Smaller maps / close quarters maps -Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match -Everyone uses Militia gear -Matchmaking & Customs Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec. All these are supposed to exist when the game launches. People with casual in mind will probably end up making their own casual matches anyway. As for the core mechanic, it's an FPS, the core mechanic isn't what's changing. An FPS is the way it is because it's an FPS. If I pick up a COD title, I can play it fairly easily, and transition to Killzone 3 even though the control schemes and gameplay could be radically different. A gun is a gun. The complexity is not supposed to be altering anything in the core mechanic so that casual gamers can pick it up and play it, it's for everyone else that wants complexity that can enjoy messing around with fits and exploring the Eve universe through Dust.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.18 16:09:00 - [94] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: TL;DR all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles ARENA BATTLES -8v8 -Smaller maps / close quarters maps -Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match -Everyone uses Militia gear -Matchmaking & Customs Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec. Lol best fix to make every side happy. You win internets today.
Dane Stark Golgotha Group 178	Posted - 2012.09.18 16:49:00 - [95] - Quote Of course, like everyone else my 0.02isk has to get thrown in here (still love that who ever made that up first). Anyway...CCP is not making this game IMHO for the masses. They do not need to make money off of it. Sure, they don't want to lose money, but, trust me, they make plenty of $$$ off of Mama bear (EvE) every month from me and gobs of others. And they will make a bit from the AUR users too. No, this game is for those of us who love the depth and expansive nature of a game universe that IS complex and not just 'run-of-the-mill' with limited permutations of weapons and fittings like EVERY OTHER FPS. It's cool - I'm certainly not going to flame you if you feel the game is complex; it is - for good reason. Yes, as others have stated, there are a ton of other choices for you to play and that is the beauty of CCP making a game for those that want this level of depth. They don't have to fit the mold and they don't. That is why CCP has become my favorite game company! Hats off to the Dusters and regards to the others - to each there own; but Dust? Dust is going to be just fine...
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.09.18 16:52:00 - [96] - Quote Jin Robot wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Its not complex enough It will be, something tells me we have not seen all the layers yet. I am sure this rabbit hole goes much deeper. LOL @ what CCP David Reid says in EVERY SINGLE interview.
TEBOW BAGGINS FIREFLY ATLANTIS ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED TACNET 549	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:09:00 - [97] - Quote 6/10
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:10:00 - [98] - Quote More depth. MORE COMPLEXITY MORE UNICORNS!!!!
Dane Stark Golgotha Group 178	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:14:00 - [99] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: More depth. MORE COMPLEXITY MORE UNICORNS!!!! Ha! How many hard points do you suppose will be on the Unicorns in the next build?
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:55:00 - [100] - Quote Dane Stark wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: More depth. MORE COMPLEXITY MORE UNICORNS!!!! Ha! How many hard points do you suppose will be on the Unicorns in the next build? Over 9000!!!!!

ReGnUm ReSuRgAM DEI 33	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:59:00 - [101] - Quote Patches The Hyena wrote: Quote: Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. Who says CCP is going for the average Joe? If they wanted that crowd they would be concentrating on dumbing down EVE. CCP is still a company driven by passionate game makers, and while they obviously strive for commercial success they still concentrate on making games they like, not on making games accessible to the masses. They have a sizeable fan base just sitting here waiting for the deep and complex experience promised us, any simplification or dumbing down will turn us all away. If you want CoD go play CoD but please don't try and argue for why Dust should be more like it. FTP PLAY ATTRACTS CAUSAL GAMERS WHICH ARE THE AVERAGE JOES
Dane Stark Golgotha Group 178	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:03:00 - [102] - Quote Octavian Vetiver wrote: Dane Stark wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: More depth. MORE COMPLEXITY MORE UNICORNS!!!! Ha! How many hard points do you suppose will be on the Unicorns in the next build? Over 9000!!!!! Ha! May be a bit OP, but...we'll BETA TEST it out!
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:09:00 - [103] - Quote http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/09/17/leaderboard-complexity-vs-simplicity/#continued Interrreeeeesssttttinnnnngg
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:21:00 - [104] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/09/17/leaderboard-complexity-vs-simplicity/#continued Interrreeeeesssttttinnnnngg learn 2 play, tbh eve gui sucks.
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation 172	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:26:00 - [105] - Quote Ngl I had to stop reading but I think I get what you're trying to say because I worried about it too much. Yes. The game is complex. Not for just a single reason but for multiple reasons. Background, playing style diversity, player interactions, RPG-like systems which require specific SP spending for best results, a player-driven economy, player ran corporations, linkage to another MMO, a "story" ran by the players, and let's not forget the underbelly of EVE which should be transferred here, the powerful unguarded competition. That's not all of it but that's all I could think of. Anyways. It's quite simple to get into. I easily hopped into the game right after getting my code. Jumped in, busted some heads, completed objectives, and won a match. Once you know what you're doing there is nothing really mentally challenging about just playing. Now opening up to the other sides of the game would be something different but again we're talking about attracting casual players who might or might not just jump in and jump out of games. You can think of it like this. The economy is complex yet people understand how saving up and spending and stuff works right? Only when you get into the bigger parts of the economy do things get all complex. However just like economy without proper knowledge this game can be quite confusing. This can EASILY be fixed simply by adding simple tips, hints, and instructions when you do something like for example make a new fitting. Also to anyone saying the "complexity" of the game will throw casual players and other non-FPS players off, stick a sock in it. I know RPG players who want to play it just for how deep this game can be and the casual gamers won't give that much of a kitten because it's free and something that anyone will be able to access meaning friends can join up to play a free game instead of buying CoD for 60 bucks.
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:31:00 - [106] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Ieukoplast wrote: I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress. I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, *yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need.* I stopped reading here... +1
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:33:00 - [107] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Dude your not worth it sorry just move on or hang around and be a troll either is fine with me. Just write somthing like "see no one has said anything detailed and I am right your all wrong" and bam you win the internets for a day. Listen to Papa Sha Kharn Clone, Papa knows best!
Foldenfly Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 81	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:35:00 - [108] - Quote Tarn Adari wrote: You know how you can manage to compete with CoD? You don't even try. If you make a CoD clone, you will fail, because those who want to play CoD play CoD. They don't want to play another game that is 'like' CoD. The only way to have any success in the shooter market, is NOT to make CoD. Avid COD fan and couldn't agree with this more. When I want to play COD, I'll put the disk in. I want more out of Dust.
V3r1745 Luxmea Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:35:00 - [109] - Quote Ieukoplast wrote: Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. GTFO dude. Go play COD or World of Warcraft then. EVE/DUST is indeed for a different breed of gamers.
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:37:00 - [110] - Quote EnIgMa99 wrote: needs more complexity Shallow games are like kiddy pools in the backyard for toddlers. They maybe fun for a time being but once half of the water has evaporated it fails to function as a pool anymore.

SoLJae ZionTCD Legacy Rising 351	Posted - 2012.09.18 18:47:00 - [111] - Quote Beast Beastlington wrote: In other words: we can have our cake and we can eat it. A spacecake if you will. Hopefully I wont have to pour SP into cake eating skills. Oh man, I love spacecake... count me in!
Jane DeArc Militaires Sans Jeux 87	Posted - 2012.09.18 19:01:00 - [112] - Quote Jin Robot wrote: I would rather play chess, let ppl who dont want to think and plan as much play checkers. Why are you so great? We need to squad up sometime.
Jin Robot Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 330	Posted - 2012.09.18 19:05:00 - [113] - Quote Jane DeArc wrote: Jin Robot wrote: I would rather play chess, let ppl who dont want to think and plan as much play checkers. Why are you so great? We need to squad up sometime. I would be down, always like playing with strategically minded people.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.09.18 19:35:00 - [114] - Quote DUST has aspects of RPG, so I find an apt analogy in that arena: D&D has a farily simple character creation model. A handfull of stats that you roll up with dice after you decide on one of half a dozen classes (fewer when I started 30 years ago). Fighters used a sword, clerics a mace, magic users had a small set of spells. Then came along CHAMPIONS (tm), a super hero RPG. Character creation went from a 2 minute to a multi-hour task, and longer if you wanted. Why? Because it had a huge list of powers, skills, groupings, modifiers, and disadvantages that you had to understand to spend your character creation points on wisely. You could throw one together quickly, but you would spend a lot more time getting your "fit" efficient if you were serious about it. Serious players would read though the options for each category multiple times and design a unique character that was a thrill to play. CoD and its clones are D&D. There is very little complexity. You just level up and you get a bigger sword. DUST is CHAMPIONS (tm). Players study the skill trees, memorize module stats, and create a unique character who is good at something special. Level up and you can gain entire new abilities. Both games have the same basic mechanics. You go out and battle things, roll dice, and see who wins. The overall feel is very different though. CoD appeals to the casual D&D player who just wants to roll up a quick character and go hack and slash in a generic dungeon. DUST appeals to the CHAMPIONS(tm) player who wants a truely unique character in a complex universe. This is the person who will role play for 2-3 hours with no combat because they love the meta-game.
Rayan Storm ZionTCD Legacy Rising 358	Posted - 2012.09.18 20:16:00 - [115] - Quote Honestly, i kind of wish the game was even more complex!
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.09.18 20:33:00 - [116] - Quote This thread is a testament to what people want. No need to re-hash everything, and thank goodness an FPS with depth is being released. They already implement a feature that will appeal to casual gamers: F2P.
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 393	Posted - 2012.09.18 20:33:00 - [117] - Quote Tarralis wrote: Maximus Stryker wrote: TL;DR all they need to do to bring along casuals is launch the game with arena battles ARENA BATTLES -8v8 -Smaller maps / close quarters maps -Capture The Flag / King of The Hill / Team Death Match -Everyone uses Militia gear -Matchmaking & Customs Just have it so people can easily log on and play arena battles whenever very easily, no need to worries about ISK or SP very much. Then as people begin to like the game and get into it and get more competitive, they can branch out into High Sec, then Low Sec and Null Sec. All these are supposed to exist when the game launches. People with casual in mind will probably end up making their own casual matches anyway. As for the core mechanic, it's an FPS, the core mechanic isn't what's changing. An FPS is the way it is because it's an FPS. If I pick up a COD title, I can play it fairly easily, and transition to Killzone 3 even though the control schemes and gameplay could be radically different. A gun is a gun. The complexity is not supposed to be altering anything in the core mechanic so that casual gamers can pick it up and play it, it's for everyone else that wants complexity that can enjoy messing around with fits and exploring the Eve universe through Dust. I know we are getting Arena Battles eventually but I was not under the impression that they would be there at launch. If they are in place at launch, that just boosts my confidence that this game will be successful even more... I thought the rumors were that we would see Arena Battles/e-Sports in the future (aka 2013) and that we would be able to bet on matches and conduct in game tournaments etc. etc. If at launch we have Arena Battles, High-Sec NPC contracts (farm SP & ISK) and Fraction Warfare ---- not only am I even more enthusiastic about this but like I already said, see this game being more successful than my initial expectation. SO heres hoping you are correct and we do get Arena Battles at launch, cheers
woess Kanalanal 23	Posted - 2012.09.18 20:53:00 - [118] - Quote "Too much depth and complexity?" this is why i like dust... the complexity and depth is an "idiot filter" for this game also i like games whitch have a learning curve
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1592	Posted - 2012.09.18 20:56:00 - [119] - Quote Beast Beastlington wrote: Jin Robot wrote: Beast Beastlington wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: I really dont want to sound mean but maybe watching TV would be more you. Dont take away the only shooter that needs a little thinking now and again. Explain to me what "thinking" is required for this game. Explain how the core mechanics differ from every other FPS out there. While your at it, explain how having a better, more fluid style of gunplay is dumbing the game down. The thinking is in fitting your suit, vehicle in accordance with how you chose to level up, and doing it effectively. The other fps are "drop in, push start, go". There is absolutely nothing complex about any of that. That is no more complex than choosing the correct AR in BF3 using the right gadget to suit your play-style. I'm still waiting for a detailed answer. How is Dust any more complex than any other FPS? How will better core game mechanics dumb the game down in any shape or form? The thing is this game is really not complete yet. There are still some features that I've yet to see implemented that could require a lot of thinking. Until then, we are just speculating on the level of complexity required. If I may, perhaps I can answer this gentleman's question. The core mechanics are that of the unreal engine. That is the core mechanic. I guess we are forgetting that the proper term to use is core features such a player dominated economy just like that of Eve online. Then there is the emergent gameplay which competes against theme park style games like call of duty. Then there is the industry and logistics that will soon be involved with DUST corps. Does that help?
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 21:02:00 - [120] - Quote woess wrote: "Too much depth and complexity?" this is why i like dust... the complexity and depth is an "idiot filter" for this game also i like games whitch have a learning curve If you are going to use terms like "idiot filter" and be a condescending elitist at least spell correctly and capitalise your sentences.



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