DUST Search - Too much depth and complexity? Dust 514's biggest failing.

Beast Beastlington wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming.

Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve.

Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking.

We're not talking about making Dust into anything. We're talking about LEARNING about what makes those 3 or 4 top tier games the ones people play night after night. We're talking about accessibility, so the servers are full and CCP make a huge profit. We're talking about having top level gun play. We're talking about having a brilliantly balanced, tactical, rewarding game that is fun and has epic moments.

Stop thinking that we want another CoD. We don't. I don't like CoD but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm smarter than people who play those games and I'm certainly not pretentious enough to think that at it's core, Dust is any more complicated.


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Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.09.18 11:57:00 - [1] - Quote I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress. I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable. Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use. Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously??? Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire. Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.
Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.09.18 22:34:00 - [2] - Quote Beast Beastlington wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming. Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve. Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking. We're not talking about making Dust into anything. We're talking about LEARNING about what makes those 3 or 4 top tier games the ones people play night after night. We're talking about accessibility, so the servers are full and CCP make a huge profit. We're talking about having top level gun play. We're talking about having a brilliantly balanced, tactical, rewarding game that is fun and has epic moments. Stop thinking that we want another CoD. We don't. I don't like CoD but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm smarter than people who play those games and I'm certainly not pretentious enough to think that at it's core, Dust is any more complicated. Thank you! I certainly don't want Dust to be like a COD game. What some people don't get from my post, was that devs these days should study and understand the success of the extremely popular cookie-cutter games, and find out why people are drawn to them. Then use that information to better their game. Here is an example: COD games have nearly flawless controls and aiming, the controls are very easy to pick up and play, and are even better for somebody who knows how to use them. Aiming is butter smooth, precise and accurate, whatever your brain says to "shoot" your character shoots at and actually hits that target. Button mapping is natural and fluid, no fumbling around the controls to switch weapons or to select a special item. A game doesn't need to be a COD clone in order to have excellent, natural and intuitive controls. I mean heck, Dust already has many button mappings identical to a COD game, like melee with R3 and sprint with L3... don't forget people, COD practically set this as the golden standard for FPS games. But it doesn't turn Dust into a COD clone. There is nothing wrong with using proven and reliable gameplay mechanics, and any developer that ignores that aspect is only making it harder for themselves. No reason to go and cut down a tree to try and make perfectly white and rectangular paper, just goto Wal-mart and pick up a pack of printer paper. An example of this is Dust's vehicle controls, using the left stick for steering, acceleration, braking and reverse? That is wrong on so many levels! All CCP had to do was look at any driving game on the PS3 to know that the standard is; R2 acceleration, L2 brake/reverse and left stick for steering. Does doing it that way make Dust a clone of... um, Motorstorm? GTA4? of course not! I would never suggest in a million years that Dust have the high-level gameplay of a COD game, but more like tweaks to the low-level code to make the game perform to the expectations of every FPS player out there. Also you nailed it in your previous post about the carrot-dangling. Dust definitely has that carrot-dangling aspect, which I love, but there is just something wrong with how it is executed. It's like once you finally reach the carrot, you find out it is plastic and inedible, but look, there is another carrot up ahead... could that one be real? There is simply too much salt-in-the-wound style of upgrading with Dust.
Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.09.19 08:45:00 - [3] - Quote Templar Two wrote: First of all "simple" isn't stupid, nor complex = clever. Dust 514 also is not complex, Dust takes 10 words to say "Hi". This is not complexity, this is poor design: nothing more. Everything could be more elegant, more simple (not easy or stupid), more accessible and comprehensible but NO complexity a la EVE must stay even if it will impact negatively the game or alienate players...and for what? Why cherish this complexity when what ti does is nothing commendable? Playing Dust does not make you a cleaver person, nor playing COD makes you a stupid person. Brevity is the soul of the wit and Dust ins't brief nor understands the importance/value of begin brief. P.S. Also don't mistake MMO = RPG. MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online. Dust is a FPS MMO and EVE is RPG MMO. If you think MMO = RPG you are simply wrong. This is something I have been trying to comprehend. Is Dust a MMORPG or a MMOFPS (if such a thing exists)? In its current setup, it is more like a MMORPG with a disadvantage. Takes years to upgrade, yet advantage is relatively minimum. Kind of a lose-lose situation now that I think of it. COD games are more like a hybrid RPG/FPS.
Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.09.19 09:37:00 - [4] - Quote Seran Jinkar wrote: leukoplast said it. DUST has DISADVANTAGES. Besides requireing skill at playing FPS (and skilled players know how to take town proto gear guys with militia gear) you need time (thanks to skill multipliers) and a wider vantage point that extends beyond the battlefield. You have to know your enemies. You have to know that Taz-666 is usually a lone wolf that uses a scout fit in the current build. While Icecream Queen and his fellow booster gang tend to stick together with high grade equipment or tanks. Dust requires you to adapt. Not only to your playstyle (by choosing skills and gear) but to the moment on the battlefield and the trend in the meta game. Tanks are nerfed? So what do you do? Make a tank killer tank or increase your swarm skills. It is up to you. But the huge disadvantage is: IT IS YOUR CHOICE. You better pray it was the right one, otherwise you are required to learn like everybody else. Things like learning that 66HP more don't make you invincible... just last 2 seconds longer in a CQC and 4 on medium range. Never said 66HP made me invincible, just that it was a minor upgrade that amazingly costs major in many ways. Case in point.