DUST Search - Too much depth and complexity? Dust 514's biggest failing.

Ieukoplast wrote:

I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress.

I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable.

Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use.

Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously???

Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire.

Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.

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Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.09.18 11:57:00 - [1] - Quote I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress. I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable. Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use. Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously??? Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire. Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game.
Patches The Hyena 204	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:04:00 - [2] - Quote Quote: Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. Who says CCP is going for the average Joe? If they wanted that crowd they would be concentrating on dumbing down EVE. CCP is still a company driven by passionate game makers, and while they obviously strive for commercial success they still concentrate on making games they like, not on making games accessible to the masses. They have a sizeable fan base just sitting here waiting for the deep and complex experience promised us, any simplification or dumbing down will turn us all away. If you want CoD go play CoD but please don't try and argue for why Dust should be more like it.
Jin Robot Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 330	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:07:00 - [3] - Quote They have the game you want out already, Its called "every fps out there 3" I would rather play chess, let ppl who dont want to think and plan as much play checkers.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:10:00 - [4] - Quote No. Casuals can literally pick up any of the starter fits, and shoot, revive, be av, etc. Tbh, its the fact that the high level stuff now only marginally help, that makes this game accessible to casuals. They dont have to worry about grinding for weeks, they actually have a shot at keeping up with the vets.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:11:00 - [5] - Quote Its not complex enough
Jin Robot Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 330	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:13:00 - [6] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Its not complex enough It will be, something tells me we have not seen all the layers yet. I am sure this rabbit hole goes much deeper.
Rains Akkadian BetaMax. 28	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:13:00 - [7] - Quote Ieukoplast wrote: I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress. I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable. Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use. Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously??? Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire. Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game. Dude you just pointed out all the best bits of Dust. Honestly it doesn't have enough depth and complexity, some people will be "finished" within a couple of months of release..
Tarn Adari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:15:00 - [8] - Quote You know how you can manage to compete with CoD? You don't even try. If you make a CoD clone, you will fail, because those who want to play CoD play CoD. They don't want to play another game that is 'like' CoD. The only way to have any success in the shooter market, is NOT to make CoD.
dent 308 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 967	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:15:00 - [9] - Quote The hell with the masses. They have ruined enough. Anyone remember what Spore was supposed to be? It was attempting to appeal to "the masses" that absolutely destroyed that game. I agree with mike, casuals can drop in, take a starter fit and roam about aimlessly. Or not, the hell with them, they don't even exist. Once players figure out what a fitting tool means (not even how to use it, but just that it exists) they will start to realize this is something awesome.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2047	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:24:00 - [10] - Quote I actually disagree with you I believe this games success fill be in its complexity and depth. I understand what you are saying about people who just want to be casual and pick up the controller, enter team deathmatch or what ever other game mode, and just simply have fun without having to worry about messing up fittings or loosing isk, but there will be a sort of "inner circle" of the game for people like that. You will be able to play matches were there is almost exclusive free militia in the match as well as more filters to help make sure the players against each other will be on similar skill levels. No one said that players who are used to CoD, BF3, MAG, etc. will jump on this game immediately, but its not hard to find people who are already sick of the cookie cutter fps's that have been coming out. Sure it is a bit complicated now but people will get bored of repetition and need something more. Dust 514 is going to be one of the answers to the boredom of generic fps titles it will be constantly expanding and remain fresh with more gear and strategies to explore. Ya people will have to ease into it and may find it overwhelming to free fall down the rabbit hole straight out of the gate but they don't have to is my point. When the game releases you have the option to treat Dust like it is more of a generic title but once your bored you have the option to go into deeper and more complex gameplay as well.

RC assault blazin Algintal Core Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:35:00 - [11] - Quote More skills more complexity that's what it needs and if the average jo don't like it then he better look for a different game..
Flexapex 20	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:43:00 - [12] - Quote Patches The Hyena wrote: Quote: Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. Who says CCP is going for the average Joe? If they wanted that crowd they would be concentrating on dumbing down EVE. CCP is still a company driven by passionate game makers, and while they obviously strive for commercial success they still concentrate on making games they like, not on making games accessible to the masses. They have a sizeable fan base just sitting here waiting for the deep and complex experience promised us, any simplification or dumbing down will turn us all away. If you want CoD go play CoD but please don't try and argue for why Dust should be more like it. dont be a brainless guy here for sure, ofcourse they want to hit the masses with this game...how do u think they get their money?simple by microtransactions we pay for.So if i as a developer could choose between 100.000 players or a few milions i know what i shoulda done. i like the complexity of the game but i know what the op is trying to say here.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:48:00 - [13] - Quote Ieukoplast wrote: I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress. I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need. Gameplay is consistent, and controls are rock-solid and reliable. Dust 514 just doesn't come off as the type of game that an average-Joe player is going to pick up on and keep playing. I am pretty dedicated when it comes to complex/deep games, I always love a good RPG! But Dust 514 is laying it on a bit thick. You spend 1-2 weeks trying to upgrade one single skill to get that favorite something you have been looking forward to, only to find out that when you do get the 2 million SP to finally upgrade, that now you have 20 other things that need to be specialized, purchased and upgraded in order to successfully put that skill to use. Here is an example. I wanted to get slightly better shields, so I worked my butt off using nothing but militia gear (starter kits) to get all the proper SP and skills to obtain a shield extender that simply gives me 66 extra HP. Well, turns out that I can't just use that shield extender with a starter kit (not enough PG), so I now have to buy a dropsuit, and equip that dropsuit with purchased weapons/ability's, that I previously GOT FOR FREE. Now each time I die, I have to spend something like 60,000 ISK, all for a measly 66HP extra to my shields, which essentially amounts to nothing. (which is actually only 44 extra HP cause I already had +22HP militia shields). Seriously??? Developers need to learn from the COD platform and improve, not try to reinvent the wheel. If i want to upgrade my skills so I can have a shield that gives me 66 extra HP, I should be able to do that without having to buy a whole new dropsuit, and a plethora of weapons and additional skills in order to use thus new shield upgrade. Quite simply, I should be able to add that new shield to my starter kit layout, and only have to pay for the replacement of that shield. As it stands now, i have to buy a new dropsuit, buy all my weapons, grenades, and anything else that I previously got for free just so I can use one single shield upgrade that is nearly useless and took me 1-2 weeks to acquire. Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game. Couldn't have put it better myself. People on this forum want the game to be an exclusive club that only they get to play and dominate. Sorry, but it doesn't work this way. F2P games need a big player base that are willing to purchase items and vanity goods to pay for the service and ensure the creators make a profit. Also, to suggest that Dust couldn't learn anything from CoD is madness. People like to deride CoD because it's popular but the simple fact is, it's got the gameplay nailed. It's smooth, takes about 2 mins to get into a game, has fluid, fun gameplay and has the carrot-on-the-stick factor of chasing new equipment down to a fine art. The core gameplay of Dust is no more complicated than any other FPS out there. You point your virtual gun at other people, capture objectives and so on and so forth. Dust and CoD can be very different, there's nothing wrong with having alot of depth (or alot of skills to sink into). There's also nothing wrong with having a game you can casually sink 20 mins into. The only thing that troubles me about Dust is how it will manage to cater for newcomers. In every other FPS, newcomers are at no disadvantage, all weapons are pretty much equal. In Dust we have these higher level shields, drop suits, more accurate weapons, players with SP invested into skills etc. I think this will have to be balanced on release otherwise a large portion of people will be turned off.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:48:00 - [14] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Its not complex enough Meta game should fix that
Captain-Awesome 38	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:51:00 - [15] - Quote lol@op Good thread. walks back to irc
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1592	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:52:00 - [16] - Quote I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming. Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve. Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 786	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:57:00 - [17] - Quote Ieukoplast wrote: Bottom line is, this game needs a LOT more permanent blueprints and more starter-kit dropuits that can be upgraded. Having to constantly buy every weapon and every item we use for each time we spawn is horribly inconvenient and annoying. That is not how you do upgrades in a FPS online game. The reason there is very few permanent items, is because almost everything you buy, you will be buying from other players. Permanent items are horrible for a player driver economy! You lose things when you die for the entire purpose of fueling that economy.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:57:00 - [18] - Quote Dude, suck it up, buy some gear, and move on, this game isn't getting any easier.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 169	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:57:00 - [19] - Quote Ieukoplast wrote: I dunno, as it stands now, I can't imagine the masses adopting to this game very well. There is just too much complexity and complications, most people simply want to relax and have fun when playing online... not to eat, sleep, and breath a game 24 hours a day 7 days a week in order to make even the slightest bit of progress. I'm sure we all think similarly of the COD games, but we cannot deny the success of such games. A COD game is simple, relatively easy for newcomers to learn, *yet deep and complex enough to give dedicated players something to work at and strive for if they feel the need.* I stopped reading here...
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:58:00 - [20] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming. Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve. Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking. We're not talking about making Dust into anything. We're talking about LEARNING about what makes those 3 or 4 top tier games the ones people play night after night. We're talking about accessibility, so the servers are full and CCP make a huge profit. We're talking about having top level gun play. We're talking about having a brilliantly balanced, tactical, rewarding game that is fun and has epic moments. Stop thinking that we want another CoD. We don't. I don't like CoD but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm smarter than people who play those games and I'm certainly not pretentious enough to think that at it's core, Dust is any more complicated.

Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:00:00 - [21] - Quote Too complex ? Are you kidding me ? This game aint complex at all once you understand the basics and the mecanics of how EVERYTHING works. Then it's just a game of "make your own style" that is based on your ability to analyze the battlefield and have solutions to every situations. Compared to EVE, Dust is still a child's playground. If someone takes half an hour to explain you how dust works, it's ok. In Eve, it will take days, weeks, months. Also, if you feel like the game is already too complex, then just leave now and never return as things won't get any better for you overtime lol. CCP must have evil ideas on how to offer an even more complete experience in new eden Dust side.
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:14:00 - [22] - Quote needs more complexity
Phantomnom Bragian Order Amarr Empire 505	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:15:00 - [23] - Quote It's barely complex, just inaccessible to newbies. You have to dig for relevant information towards anything you want to look in to and would be completely overwhelming to people looking at their first taste of this game. Oh and inb4 inaccessibility is complexity, because it's not.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:20:00 - [24] - Quote Phantomnom wrote: It's barely complex, just inaccessible to newbies. You have to dig for relevant information towards anything you want to look in to and would be completely overwhelming to people looking at their first taste of this game. Oh and inb4 inaccessibility is complexity, because it's not. Yes, the game is too complex. I there's so much more depth to holding down an objective in this. Also, those L1 and R1 button combinations are a million miles from anything I've played. I can't get my head around such depth of control. Also, CCP are not making this game for everyone, it's for an exclusive club of highly intelligent people who don't play CoD, BF3 or Borderlands etc. Those guys are brainless casuals. If a game is fun and lots of people buy it then it sucks. I am in no way being sarcastic in the above post. Seriously.
Ire's thug GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 272	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:23:00 - [25] - Quote Kill this thread. You dumb this down me and all my friends quit.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:26:00 - [26] - Quote Ire's thug wrote: Kill this thread. You dumb this down me and all my friends quit. LOL
Phantomnom Bragian Order Amarr Empire 505	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:27:00 - [27] - Quote Ire's thug wrote: You dumb this down me and all my friends quit. I love how people say "my friends" as a dealbreaker, thinking that a whole four people matter to the sales of a game that is free.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:28:00 - [28] - Quote I really dont want to sound mean but maybe watching TV would be more you. Dont take away the only shooter that needs a little thinking now and again.
Octavian Vetiver Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 152	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:29:00 - [29] - Quote Ire's thug wrote: Kill this thread. You dumb this down me and all my friends quit. If they push it to CoD standards or BF standards I as an EvE player will help see the game dies in it's tracks by keeping dusters out of low and nul. I would imagine that most will follow along with.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:31:00 - [30] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: I really dont want to sound mean but maybe watching TV would be more you. Dont take away the only shooter that needs a little thinking now and again. Explain to me what "thinking" is required for this game. Explain how the core mechanics differ from every other FPS out there. While your at it, explain how having a better, more fluid style of gunplay is dumbing the game down.



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