I like the complexity of the skills system....but I'm not impressed with the game modes or the player counts in them....

Since playing in battles for hours at a time on Planetside 2, where there were at least 60 vs 60 with tons of armor and aircraft, a battle front that stretched some four hundred metres, I just can't stand the huge dust maps with the hide and seek games that we have at present.

The PS2 battle I refer to was what I spawned into, I played for over two hours in that same battle, on the same battle front trying to push the line forward right up until I stopped playing. The battle no doubt continued without me. The whole concept of "rounds" or matches is out the window. The war keeps going perpetually.

Now compare dust - I play last night and there are games where they are 1 vs 1? Then there are games with up to 12 v 12 but they last for 20 seconds? There were games where the game ended in twenty seconds and the clone counts were like 60/59. Yeah its a beta. I know. So is the other game.

Complexity is great, but its gotta actually work and what worries me about dust is that there are a lot of basic problems even with low player counts and that does not bode well considering the level of complexity that is being built. That complexity is just not going to translate well if the numbers are limited on huge maps.

I think the complexity of Dust is a good thing and I welcome more.

I play BF3 and can say many of us welcome such complexity.

There are a lot of tactically oriented FPSers out there who will eat this game up (if combat is polished more).

I think you can make Dust 514 into a deep and complex game and still make it accessible. In fact we need that. Because we need grunts! There's a good chance that every respectable corp in Dust is going to have a few KDR mentality focused killing machines in their ranks. So the geeks can drop them into a fight and keep the other team bleeding while taking care of objectives.

Make it easy for people to jump into the game and have fun, make it hard to master. What's wrong with that?

I'm sorry but you are wrong to try to suggest making DUST into just another COD. Games that do that are the very reason why I don't play any other cookie cutter game that tries to be cod. DUST is not meant to be a cookie cutter game. It is meant to break the traditional mold of first person shooters and create a new competitive game that will usher in a new era of gaming.

Unreal Tournament is a clear example. It was a ground breaking game that later became the gold standard that other games like cod will be based on. Eve alone is achieving something similar as guild wars 2 is now basing its in game economic model on that of Eve online. DUST has the potential to usher in something new that other shooters failed to achieve.

Making DUST into a cookie cutter game is not ground breaking.

We're not talking about making Dust into anything. We're talking about LEARNING about what makes those 3 or 4 top tier games the ones people play night after night. We're talking about accessibility, so the servers are full and CCP make a huge profit. We're talking about having top level gun play. We're talking about having a brilliantly balanced, tactical, rewarding game that is fun and has epic moments.

Stop thinking that we want another CoD. We don't. I don't like CoD but I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm smarter than people who play those games and I'm certainly not pretentious enough to think that at it's core, Dust is any more complicated.

Is there any particular reason why we can't have both worlds?

Are you happy with the gun-play in Dust as it stands? Do you honestly think the gun-play is as good as other games? Are you honestly suggesting that it would be a bad thing for Dust to run at 60fps and have customisable weapons and fast fluid game-play?

Seriously?

Are you playing the game for stats?

CoD, BF3, MAG

One of these things is not like the other.

Oh look! Someone who truly does NOT get it quoting someone who does.

DUST is not an FPS. DUST is not an MMO. We should all grieve that they chose to call it the sum of the two.

I believe CCP may not be trying to target every PSN member with DUST and they may not be targeting every FPS player on PSN with DUST. There are a LOT of those. Big market compared with EVE.

I wonder if the more realistic target market is the portion of the PSN FPS market that is 25-35 and looking for the next big thing. That might be a more realistic target market size.

But the cool thing about this business plan is the first and last word in business: Location Location Location

They are opening shop on top of the platform that hosts the whole PSN FPS market. As that big bunch ages they will have had exposure to "DUST", that cool but kinda complex and deep game that's been there while they've been playing CoD, BF3,XQM and whatnot.

If DUST can get a fair start with a moderate sustainable base it will be positioned to have ready access to the incoming player base.

Vikings takeover the world.

First of all "simple" isn't stupid, nor complex = clever.
Dust 514 also is not complex, Dust takes 10 words to say "Hi".
This is not complexity, this is poor design: nothing more.
Everything could be more elegant, more simple (not easy or stupid), more accessible and comprehensible but NO complexity a la EVE must stay even if it will impact negatively the game or alienate players...and for what?
Why cherish this complexity when what ti does is nothing commendable?
Playing Dust does not make you a cleaver person, nor playing COD makes you a stupid person.
Brevity is the soul of the wit and Dust ins't brief nor understands the importance/value of begin brief.

P.S.
Also don't mistake MMO = RPG.
MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online.
Dust is a FPS MMO and EVE is RPG MMO.
If you think MMO = RPG you are simply wrong.

leukoplast said it. DUST has DISADVANTAGES. Besides requireing skill at playing FPS (and skilled players know how to take town proto gear guys with militia gear) you need time (thanks to skill multipliers) and a wider vantage point that extends beyond the battlefield. You have to know your enemies. You have to know that Taz-666 is usually a lone wolf that uses a scout fit in the current build. While Icecream Queen and his fellow booster gang tend to stick together with high grade equipment or tanks.

Dust requires you to adapt. Not only to your playstyle (by choosing skills and gear) but to the moment on the battlefield and the trend in the meta game. Tanks are nerfed? So what do you do? Make a tank killer tank or increase your swarm skills. It is up to you. But the huge disadvantage is: IT IS YOUR CHOICE. You better pray it was the right one, otherwise you are required to learn like everybody else. Things like learning that 66HP more don't make you invincible... just last 2 seconds longer in a CQC and 4 on medium range.

leukoplast Dust is advertised as a FPS MMO, so it should play like a FPS but with hundreds of players per map. (PlanetSide)
The relity is that Dust, as you say, is more a RPG MMO...with poor FPS gameplay attached.
I here have said it many time but in PVP statistical disadvantages have no reason to exist because players' skills should be the main focus but I was ignored.
In the end CCP RPG history/mentality once more was applied to Dust 514 not realizing that what works in RPG like EVE doesn't work at all in FPS.
Now if we look around at what other RPG are doing we see Guild Wars 2, winch is a RPG MMO, and it has now removed statistical disadvantage in PVP bringing the focus on players' skills.
Guild Wars which is a RPG went FPS, so to say, while Dust which is a FPS went RPG.

Playing ps2 during the day and dust in the afternoon and evening, I just can't compare the two....

Ps2 is far better game play, there are no "rounds" or "matches"....

Also the graphics are much better in ps2 than dust...yeah I know its PC but even MAG had better graphics than dust and MAG was considered to be bad graphics relative to other fps like cod and bf3....

Dust needs so much work its amazing that this is beta...

Edit: now that i think about it more, while the skill system is great, even though its complex, in the context of entertaining game play it just doesn't cut through...maybe dust is too much too soon...they may be trying to pull off too much at once and that's why core game play and graphics are suffering, because a lot of time goes into the back end around the skills and market...which is fine by the way.....but if the core doesn't improve it won't matter if the skill system and market are top notch because people won't play in the first place because the core game play and graphics stink....I hope they fix it up and prove me wrong, I really do...

This is what I've been saying all along. Without exciting, focused gameplay I can't see Dust lasting. The upcoming build will reveal alot as far as that side of things is concerned. I don't understand why people are getting so defensive about it all. It's plain as day to see, it's not up to scratch at the moment. Either it's a strange sense of loyalty to CCP (to whom you are doing a disservice) or not having played very many FPS's.

Or perhaps we've played a lot more beta games than you guys, and thus know a bit about how development works?

Stopped reading at "learn from COD".

I doubt it, I've been beta testing games for a good few years now.

and thus know a bit about how development works?

I doubt it, I've been beta testing games for a good few years now.