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Discussion - Should PG and CPU be combined into one?

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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9256	Posted - 2017.05.15 19:23:00 - [1] - Quote If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from. I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change. What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Terry Webber WarRavens Auxiliaries 986	Posted - 2017.05.15 19:38:00 - [2] - Quote Personally, I'm kind of torn on the subject. There are a lot of advantages in each design. Inertial Booster Module Vehicle Installation
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9256	Posted - 2017.05.15 19:39:00 - [3] - Quote Terry Webber wrote: Personally, I'm kind of torn on the subject. There are a lot of advantages in each design. Could you list what you like and dislike about both? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17144	Posted - 2017.05.15 19:44:00 - [4] - Quote I think it will simplify balance and risk/reward considerations. Kincats were hella expensive PG wise for what they brought, while armor was relatively cheap. Side arms, while taking small amounts of cpu, seemingly did not take small amounts of PG. At least that is what it felt like to me and what I remember of trying to make fits. Granted I was also fitting low level suits, which had limited slots and resources. Overall, I just think it will create a more level playing field, it will reduce the number of variables to have to balance around, and it will give players more flexibility to experiment with suits, while making sure there is still sacrifices and choices to be made between eq, weapons, and mods. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1437	Posted - 2017.05.15 21:17:00 - [5] - Quote It's not something that I am in favor of honestly. I do see that it would help simplify things to just make like a mana pool like any other MMO but it does not help with overall diversity. What made Dust so good was the very extensive skill progression you had to take to actually fit your suits to the max. A Proto player could be stomped on because he or she didn't take the time to skill those cores properly. I say keep the same skills that made Dust like eve. Your friendly Pub match logi
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10844	Posted - 2017.05.15 21:35:00 - [6] - Quote It'll certainly hurt racial diversify, that's for sure. As a tradeoff, it'll be easier to balance between classes, maybe. Reason for this having all of one class have different slot layouts, but all the same Power Core (PC) meter. For argument's sake, let's compare Caldari and Gallente Assaults. Caldari favor shields, tanking, and ECM (jamming) for EWAR. The Gallente favor Repair, light armor tanking, and RSD (dampening-ish). Both very different, right? Now, let's give the Calass a 4/2 and Galass 2/4, but both have the same PC (for balancing). Because they have the same limitations, both should be able to do what the other one could. Dual tanking is one of these problems, but because they have different slots, the degrees at which one can do the other varies. If they keep the CPU/PG mechanic, you can encourage players to play to their race's strengths. Give Caldari a high CPU count and low-mid PG count, while the Gallente has mid on both. Give Shield Extenders a high CPU cost with low PG costs, and give Armor Repair low-mid costs on both CPU/PG, while giving Armor Plates low CPU, but high PG. To balance out the Matari/Amarr, just give the Minnies 3/3 with medium on both, and Amarr 1/5 with low CPU/high PG. this way the Matari can still dual tank as in eve, and the Amarr become the armor tankers like in Eve. Anywho, you get the point: it allows for a more strategic way of making builds around these limitations. Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Also, an idea I had some time ago was removing CPU/PG requirements from weapons to simplify the build making while lowering the amounts of CPU/PG of the suits to compensate, I'll leave that for another thread. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
byte modal 1301	Posted - 2017.05.15 21:54:00 - [7] - Quote That's a double-edged sword. Yeah, it would simplify things (development, especially), but I would rather *not* consolidate the two. If this is a real consideration then I think it must be measured relative to other factors that we just don't have awareness of. How are skill points going to be handled? What about weaponry, dropsuit, and module hierarchies? Are these elements being flattened out in some way too? Have they decided on tier structures already? For me, this is all like a sliding scale. If I lose something here, I would prefer to gain something elsewhere; but if all of these elements are simplified across the board, then what will be left? PG/CPU as used in both EvE and DUST really widens the possibility of what gear could be matched together. Having two fitting caps really created (or at least created the perception of) a meta-game for the min/maxer types and an evolving goal when planning skills. That's not to say you would be without that goal if PG and CPU were consolidated, but it seems like it would be a few layers short? Then again, a new player wouldn't have anything to compare it against unless that player comes from EvE and/or DUST. Who is the target audience then? Hell, everything might be just fine. It just goes back to how other parts of the game are handled relative to these PG/CPU changes. It is hard to get a sense of scope as to how all these parts may affect each other without knowing (or at least having *some* perspective) on the other moving parts. We can speculate I guess.... as we've always done.... Fantasy Dust League v1.0!! kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9257	Posted - 2017.05.15 22:12:00 - [8] - Quote In regards to complexity... One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust. So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second. So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
byte modal 1302	Posted - 2017.05.15 23:27:00 - [9] - Quote On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests. Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine. Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9258	Posted - 2017.05.15 23:34:00 - [10] - Quote byte modal wrote: On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests. Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine. Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? Capacitor is confirmed to be a thing but that's outside this discussion so let's not get too tangential. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer

byte modal 1302	Posted - 2017.05.15 23:43:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: byte modal wrote: On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests. Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine. Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? Capacitor is confirmed to be a thing but that's outside this discussion so let's not get too tangential. Fair enough. Previous observations still stand. kitten bacon taco (nom)
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17145	Posted - 2017.05.16 00:03:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: In regards to complexity... One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust. So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second. So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. Perhaps I don't know enough about the system myself. Why do we need a CPU/PG system? Is it also possible that the system was not innately flawed, but that it was simply poorly executed? I don't think that I could be confident in any points I make if there is something fundamental I am missing. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Maken Tosch DUST University 13749	Posted - 2017.05.16 00:16:00 - [13] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: It's not something that I am in favor of honestly. I do see that it would help simplify things to just make like a mana pool like any other MMO but it does not help with overall diversity. What made Dust so good was the very extensive skill progression you had to take to actually fit your suits to the max. A Proto player could be stomped on because he or she didn't take the time to skill those cores properly. I say keep the same skills that made Dust like eve. I can see you point and it's a very valid one. But I want to point out that Dust 514 (despite the diversity that it had) was not as diverse from the start and actually grew in diversity over time when it comes to the possible fitting combinations you can come up with. Nova Knives were not initially introduced as a separate weapon to fit and unfit as it was introduced as a standard melee attack that literally every suit came stock with. I don't think myofibril stimulants were included at launch either but I could be wrong. Even if all of the diversity was there, this presented a major problem for CCP Games in regards to fitting balance. It took Eve Online 14 years to improve on the fitting balance and effects of each module and they are STILL working on it to this very day. Dust 514 obviously did not have that kind of time available to do the same considering the myriad of factors CCP had to deal with which is never a small feat. Combining PG and CPU into one Power Unit/Core can potentially cut down the time and effort it takes to balance weapons and fittings by at least 50% if my guess is not wrong. The idea of the Power Core is actually an old idea. In fact, I covered it in as much detail as I possibly could in one of my old lectures from yesteryear. https://youtu.be/_j8aqIW6lYI I like to thank Duncan for recording this lecture for me on his spare time. Please note that there was this one guy in the video who kept taking over the lecture at that time which prevented me from successfully conveying the point I was trying to bring up. Since then I made it a habit to always have everyone participating in my lectures to hold on to their questions until AFTER the lecture because 90% of the time their questions would have already been answered if I was given the time to completely explain the topic at hand. So the next time Nova comes around and player-run corporations are re-established in that game, you can bet your ass I will continue to enforce that rule. Anyways, Power Cores would help make dropsuits practically free by themselves but with the total cost moved over to the core. For example: Imagine everyone had a car that was free. You can pick whatever make and model you liked and the car is yours. But you only get it without the engine. You have to buy the engine and the cost of that engine varied based on the performance it brings. If you crash, you can still get another free car but you will have to purchase another engine separately. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13750	Posted - 2017.05.16 00:26:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: In regards to complexity... One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust. So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second. So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. I would argue that the way it was taught was flawed. Tutorials were lacking, players had to resort to joining learning corporations just to get a basic handle on the whole thing, and it sure as hell did NOT help that Dust 514 never had a firing range where you can practice your fittings at no cost. Speaking of which, players had to go online to browser-based fitting tools to calculate what they were going to get because a lot of players didn't want to risk spending so much ISK on a theoretical fitting that they can't test. Thankfully with Eve Online's new Fitting Simulator we should adopt that for Nova in addition to having a robust training ground and tutorials. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13750	Posted - 2017.05.16 00:30:00 - [15] - Quote byte modal wrote: On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests. Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine. Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? If the Power Cores ever retained CPU and PG as separate values, then we definitely need to have a robust NPE and a better interface to clearly explain what every value each player is looking at. That is vastly important. Considering that Nova is now being handled by the Dev team in Iceland where they have extensive experience improving the NPE, I am hoping to see a good set of tools available from the get-go. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
deadpool lifetone D3ATH CARD RUST415 353	Posted - 2017.05.16 07:21:00 - [16] - Quote If im not mistaking, someone already came up with a 2 in 1 module core for PG/CPU to help with simplifying the game code . Its actually a brilliant idea & saves up time on game scripting . Rat & company enjoyed that idea when presented several moons ago lol . From what I've noticed in the several Nova vids, looks like they implemented a way more efficient core system . Here's to projectoNOVA =ƒì¦=ƒì+=ƒì¦=ƒì+=ƒì+=ƒì¦=ƒì¦=ƒì+=ƒì+ ( F U!!!! ) * ( Why Dead? ) , (n+Æn+Çn+¢´)GÇón++pâçGòÉS+ÇX - - - - n++(º Gûí º l\|l)/
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 4439	Posted - 2017.05.16 07:45:00 - [17] - Quote It'll make things simpler for new players. I don't like that, I like it when things in games are complicated, I can figure them out quickly and then explain it to the newbs. #NekosForLife GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá When you think about it, nekos are like upgraded humans. Not a weeb, just...an anime lover.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 1237	Posted - 2017.05.16 07:50:00 - [18] - Quote My biggest issue with it is that they're changing things that weren't broken in Dust and therefore increasing the development time. And I want to play it now! Changing it to one resource type will lower variety and experimentation but may make the fitting system easier to learn. I was going to say that it'll be easier for the devs to balance but I'm not convinced, part of the reason myos were repurposed was that Rattati wanted greater module variety, with a single resource pool I think some modules will be better than others in all circumstances The Final PLC Kill Dust 514 - My Final Moments
Lightning35 Delta514 Federation Marines 62 5317	Posted - 2017.05.16 11:26:00 - [19] - Quote Yes CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad
ROMULUS H3X research lab 1204	Posted - 2017.05.16 11:39:00 - [20] - Quote Having them combined into one might allow for more possible loadouts. More is better, right! .......right? FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS PLASMA/PISTOL/PUNCH ALL OF YOU PUNKS GET HUMILIATED AFTER LUNCH!

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 8127	Posted - 2017.05.16 12:26:00 - [21] - Quote I want to first state that I donGÇÖt know everything that is being done, so I donGÇÖt have enough context to say whether it is good or bad as part of a larger plan. That being said however, balancing two resources in the fitting system was one of the things that gave fittings interest and depth. There is good and bad complexity, and I always felt that balancing CPU and Power Grid was good complexity. It made fittings into more of a mini game. When balanced right it allowed suit doctrines so that the suits that were meant to be armor oriented had more PG to fit armor and shield suits had more CPU to fit shields. But it also allowed trade-offs such as fitting a module that used CPU and generated PG so you could produce nonstandard fits. My fear is that the give and take of the two resources will be gone, and we will be left with the one dimensional fitting system where you just try to fit as much as you can until you run out. I am concerned that there will be no balancing or trade-offs. No fitting a different sidearm to give you a little more PG to fit that extra armor plate. That was the sort of thing that made creating a fit fun, rather than just a chore. I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28002	Posted - 2017.05.16 13:31:00 - [22] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Moorian Flav 648	Posted - 2017.05.16 13:55:00 - [23] - Quote Would there be a way for Civilian and even possibly T1 suits use the simplified power core but T2 and T3 suits use PG/CPU? Just a thought. Coming from DUST and EVE, I don' t really like the simplified switch but it's honestly more about how it all comes together in game. Also, I realize CCP is trying to attract more than just those from the DUST/EVE community for Nova so in that respect, I can see why a more simplified power system would seem the way to go. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Draxus Prime Nos Nothi 5031	Posted - 2017.05.16 13:59:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it how would an earned equipment system work? "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Scout

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28004	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:10:00 - [25] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Would there be a way for Civilian and even possibly T1 suits use the simplified power core but T2 and T3 suits use PG/CPU? Just a thought. Coming from DUST and EVE, I don' t really like the simplified switch but it's honestly more about how it all comes together in game. Also, I realize CCP is trying to attract more than just those from the DUST/EVE community for Nova so in that respect, I can see why a more simplified power system would seem the way to go. something we absolutely consider "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9261	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:16:00 - [26] - Quote Rattati, Will passive modules such as Armor Repairers consume capacitor as they run? Or is capcitor reserved for more active effects such as equipment? (Ie Repair tools) EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28004	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:17:00 - [27] - Quote Draxus Prime wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it how would an earned equipment system work? good question "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28006	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:18:00 - [28] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Rattati, Will passive modules such as Armor Repairers consume capacitor as they run? Or is capcitor reserved for more active effects such as equipment? (Ie Repair tools) One way to balance is to reduce Cap when you fit Passive Equipment, less to use in battle for your Actives "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Draxus Prime Nos Nothi 5031	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:20:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Draxus Prime wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it how would an earned equipment system work? good question like get x amount of ammo resupplied you would unlock a better nanonhive? "Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime Closed Beta Vet Scout

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28006	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:25:00 - [30] - Quote Draxus Prime wrote: like get x amount of ammo resupplied you would unlock a better nanonhive? not set in stone, but think battlefield class progression, plus sharing items between classes once they are unlocked. The more classes played, the bigger the inventory. This is in regards to basic class gear such as repair tool for logis, cloak field for infiltrators etc "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 1239	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:26:00 - [31] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it Can I ask why the departure from Dust's mechanics? I'm not saying they shouldn't evolve, but the existing fitting system was one of main strengths of Dust The Final PLC Kill Dust 514 - My Final Moments
byte modal 1303	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:26:00 - [32] - Quote Just to reiterate my earlier posts, and to simplify it so as not to get lost in the thread: 10 Complexity isn't bad. 20 Teach complexity, and users will follow (quality interface design and education beyond a low-res PDF are helpful). 30 Simplifying isn't bad either, if it adds quality to the overall product. 40 Don't replace complexity with simplicity unless it's the complexity that is the issue (and not poor education---see #2). 50 GOTO and PLAY 10 all that correlation and causation stuff. because, ...eyebrows. Alrighty. I've said my part and will try to shufnitthefrikerp and let the discussion evolve. Big hugs, all around. @CCP Rattati, thanks for the clarification and discussion points. <3 kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9261	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:27:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Rattati, Will passive modules such as Armor Repairers consume capacitor as they run? Or is capcitor reserved for more active effects such as equipment? (Ie Repair tools) One way to balance is to reduce Cap when you fit Passive Equipment, less to use in battle for your Actives Makes sense. How do you plan to limit player behavior such as dual tanking or running fits that would normally be restricted due to resource limitations? The dual cost system allowed developers to restrict certain modules from being used with each other due to high usage of one resource, but encouraged mixing certain modules together due to high usage of different resources. It seems like removing this duality would take away a lot of developer tools for balancing. How do you plan to compensate for this loss of control? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Echo 1991 WarRavens Imperium Eden 1344	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:40:00 - [34] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it Can I ask why the departure from Dust's mechanics? I'm not saying they shouldn't evolve, but the existing fitting system was one of main strengths of Dust I too was a big fan of the system. Going from the dual system to a singular one just seems odd and harder to balance. Change the Ion Pistol Fitting Skill Pls. #PortDust514 'Echo is a dirty hooker' - UnclS2
Jack Boost Zarena Family 1227	Posted - 2017.05.16 14:42:00 - [35] - Quote Few questions: - Is there place for turn off modules at battlefield? (more resources for another modules/less signature) - How items/modules quantity and quality influence signature factor? - Is there place for overcharging modules? (eg I turn off 2 modules on the fly and I get boost to another for 20-30%?) Not much time left...
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17146	Posted - 2017.05.16 15:31:00 - [36] - Quote From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9262	Posted - 2017.05.16 15:49:00 - [37] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. Except it's not complexity for the sake of complexity. Dual resources allow for a sort of game of finding ratios of the two for each module you use that give you the optimal use of each. Think of it like Tetris. A single resource is like filling up a space that is 1 block wide and all you have are line pieces. of various legnths. Simple right? All you have to do is drop them A dual resource resource system is like traditional tertris, where you have blocks of multiple dimensions that have to be fit together in an optimal configuration. More complicated, but which game is more fun? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19149	Posted - 2017.05.16 15:55:00 - [38] - Quote Sigh They're finally considering capacitors...and it's for dropsuits Wtf. Rage flavored bitter berry
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 613	Posted - 2017.05.16 15:59:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it Combining PG/CPU into one 'thing' is good idea. As soon as I read this I found it a brilliant idea. Just do it. Players who think that this mechanics added some 'taste' to the game are partly right, it was interesting at the begining of the game career when you acctully had to choose equipment - but at the late game, when palayer could fit everything he wanted to dropsuit(dual-tank, eq, o-weapons and all top tiers) all charm was gone. I'm strong supporter on all ideas that show Nova as new product, that is much more improved, and new player friendly compare to old-buggy-unwanted-Dust. Beside combining PG/CPU, do even more and add stacking penalty to fitting requirements, so that fitting another 'tanking' module cost more than previous one, so that running around with all slots being: shield extensions or armor plates is imposible/or very resorce consuming. PS I <3 the "Earned Equipment" pillar idea; no matter how game progression will look like at the end of developing, can we have game a type that use this pillar and look like "PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds" gameplay, were players start without they equipment jumping from the plane, then collecting fitting by random salvage, and running to the center of the map to spectacularly kill each other? This is Skirmish v1.0. In my free time I like to spend time.
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1148	Posted - 2017.05.16 16:16:00 - [40] - Quote Joel II X wrote: It'll certainly hurt racial diversify, that's for sure. As a tradeoff, it'll be easier to balance between classes, maybe. Reason for this having all of one class have different slot layouts, but all the same Power Core (PC) meter. For argument's sake, let's compare Caldari and Gallente Assaults. Caldari favor shields, tanking, and ECM (jamming) for EWAR. The Gallente favor Repair, light armor tanking, and RSD (dampening-ish). Both very different, right? Now, let's give the Calass a 4/2 and Galass 2/4, but both have the same PC (for balancing). Because they have the same limitations, both should be able to do what the other one could. Dual tanking is one of these problems, but because they have different slots, the degrees at which one can do the other varies. If they keep the CPU/PG mechanic, you can encourage players to play to their race's strengths. Give Caldari a high CPU count and low-mid PG count, while the Gallente has mid on both. Give Shield Extenders a high CPU cost with low PG costs, and give Armor Repair low-mid costs on both CPU/PG, while giving Armor Plates low CPU, but high PG. To balance out the Matari/Amarr, just give the Minnies 3/3 with medium on both, and Amarr 1/5 with low CPU/high PG. this way the Matari can still dual tank as in eve, and the Amarr become the armor tankers like in Eve. Anywho, you get the point: it allows for a more strategic way of making builds around these limitations. Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Also, an idea I had some time ago was removing CPU/PG requirements from weapons to simplify the build making while lowering the amounts of CPU/PG of the suits to compensate, I'll leave that for another thread. This is pretty much how I feel, I think too many games are going for oversimplification these days, it really takes the fun out of the games when your choices get limited not necessarily for balance but for easier to understand mechanics. Pokey Dravon wrote: In regards to complexity... One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust. So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second. So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. I started playing Dust in open beta and I hadn't played EVE before Dust and to me the NPE seemed perfectly fine at the time, it took me around 30 mins to get a basic grasp of how things work in Dust, I really though that the tutorial stuff that was in place at the time was informative enough to get you started on your journey of loss, success and most importantly self learning. After a week of playing I had learned most of the stuff in Dust and then through the years I kept on learning small bits and pieces from time to time and I really liked the fact that there was always something new to learn. To me it didn't seem like the NPE was flawed, it was the players that didn't bother listening to the tutorials or properly checking different things in the game. It was a problem of CoD generation of players that need their hand being held throughout the whole game, having a tooltip for every single thing in the game. It's fine if the game has a tootltip controls the first time you are playing the game but it goes way too far if you need the game to tell you that "Hey, did you know that loadouts are there so that you can build your own kind of suit and choose the kind of weapon that you want to use" or that "Skillpoints are there so that you can unlock new stuff with them" or "Money is there so that you can buy new stuff with it" or "Hey, did you know that those letters in the match represent objectives that you can capture" like how retarted are you if you need the game to tell you these things? Again what is fine is telling you where to access the market, your skilltree or your loadouts. But I guess this was kind of off topic, altough I think it really is important to take into consideration when thinking about simplification. If you make things complicated then retarted people won't understand how to play the game, but if you make the game too simple then normal people who want variety and complexity from a game will turn away from your game.

Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 1240	Posted - 2017.05.16 16:23:00 - [41] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Sigh They're finally considering capacitors...and it's for dropsuits Wtf. One Eyed King wrote: From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. They want to add real time resource management to ground based run and gun gameplay, so this argument sort of falls flat on its face lol. It depends what kind of modules are available, if it's activate a shield hardener before storming the stronghold it would work well, but activate reps in the middle of a firefight could feel frustrating if the controls are not perfect The Final PLC Kill Dust 514 - My Final Moments
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2398	Posted - 2017.05.16 16:23:00 - [42] - Quote I am in favour. Fitting depth can be achieved in more intuitive ways than using both CPU and PG. It's not necessary. Of course, the dual resource method could be made more intuitive, but if CCP are looking to streamline things, this is a good candidate. I was going to suggest, for example, that if shields and armour and speed (kincats) all shared the same slots, issues such as dual tanking and a lack of fitting variety and depth can be avoided without the need for pg/cpu. Looks like Rattati has beaten me to it with the shared module slot comment. I assume this means all modules will compete, instead of highs and lows. Nice. You can't dual tank if your shield take up armour slots. Also, I would argue that any buff such as speed, regen, dampening etc. should come at the cost of hp. I like to shared slot solution. In reality I don't think the pg/cpu resources added a great deal to Dust. I'm actually struggling to think of a good example of where it added to the game.
Clone D Solo Zen 2213	Posted - 2017.05.16 17:00:00 - [43] - Quote How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 28011	Posted - 2017.05.16 17:05:00 - [44] - Quote Clone D wrote: How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc. with shared equipment, heavy's will simply become more powerful. There is no reason to build such inequality into the foundation "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Clone D Solo Zen 2214	Posted - 2017.05.16 18:08:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Clone D wrote: How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc. with shared equipment, heavy's will simply become more powerful. There is no reason to build such inequality into the foundation Is Nova being built from a perspective of gorilla warfare, or a more traditional style where both combatants stand still and shoot each other until one falls down? I view the performance advantage of being lightweight and maneuverable as a counter balance to heavy clunky suits. While maneuverability is quantifiable in terms of meters per second or rotations per second, skill and tactical thinking can compound the power of maneuverability as leverage to take down a slower opponent with more armor/shield HP. In terms of balance between classes (logi, heavy, scout), who is to say that in wartime, a heavy suit can't be used as a logi? I am inclined to think, let the player mount anything on a suit that he/she wants as long as it is within the physical constraints of what the suit can support. Maybe beginners will gravitate toward heavy suits, but trained and refined players will have the skill to survive in lighter classes and they will be rewarded with the advantage of maneuverability. Please keep dexterity in the equation, enough so that if leveraged properly that it can determine the outcome of a face off. To me, the skill required to play Dust 514 was the joy. Running, straifing and aiming simultaneously, while deciding on the most effective weapon to handle a situation was the juice. TLDR; please keep an element of juice for dynamic players who move and bound and soloists who like to take on entire squads with smarts alone.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2398	Posted - 2017.05.16 20:05:00 - [46] - Quote Clone D wrote: How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc. I feel weight is kind of redundant. Limited module slots is effectively the same thing and so I don't feel it would be necessary to include weight and incumbency. As for speed variations, if there are modules that increase your speed there's no need for things that decrease it, since that's the same as an absence of speed enhancements.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1479	Posted - 2017.05.16 21:00:00 - [47] - Quote why not do both? CCP talked about consumables. Why not have cosumables that alter fitting? Allowing vets to tweak their fits, with the limitation of not being able to all the time. Eve Online has the mechanic in place already with drugs, and implants/rigs to lesser extent.
Moorian Flav 648	Posted - 2017.05.16 21:08:00 - [48] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: As for speed variations, if there are modules that increase your speed there's no need for things that decrease it, since that's the same as an absence of speed enhancements. In EVE, there are active speed boost modules (afterburner and MWD). Therefore, it would be interesting if speed modules were thrown into the mix in Nova as it sounds there would be a capacitor to draw from. Of course, these speed modules in EVE react differently based off of the weight of the ship they are attached to as it does make sense. I think there would be the same kind of thing would be in Nova if there were indeed speed modules. Speaking of weight, I'd like to add a thought on Sentinels. For a long time in PC, Sentinels were used by the majority as they were hard to remove from points. As DUST advanced though and added cloaking, super jumping, and other stuff, Sentinels became less and less dominant. Near the end of my time with DUST, Assaults looked to me to be the majority used as they were so versatile. I just hope when it comes to class balancing, CCP will make each class have pros AND cons along with having their own battlefield niche to fill. Speaking of niches while also thinking of EVE, I hope there will be more gameplay options than there was in DUST such as an option to 1v1 Duel. With all that said, I hope we continue to hear from you, Rattati. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1444	Posted - 2017.05.16 21:42:00 - [49] - Quote Quote: If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from. I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change. What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered? I'm fundamentally against anything that moves further away from EvE. The fact you're even considering something like this means Nova is moving generally away from EvE. Sorry, not interested.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17149	Posted - 2017.05.16 23:03:00 - [50] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: One Eyed King wrote: From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. Except it's not complexity for the sake of complexity. Dual resources allow for a sort of game of finding ratios of the two for each module you use that give you the optimal use of each. Think of it like Tetris. A single resource is like filling up a space that is 1 block wide and all you have are line pieces. of various legnths. Simple right? All you have to do is drop them A dual resource resource system is like traditional tertris, where you have blocks of multiple dimensions that have to be fit together in an optimal configuration. More complicated, but which game is more fun? But that isn't how Dust actually worked... If you looked at the modules being used, and many of the guns being used, it was less about fitting, and more about what worked best. There was some fitting optimization, but little to none of it had to do with the PG/CPU dynamic, the caveat being that 90% of the time I used one type of suit, and considering it was a Scout M-1, I had a lot of optimizing to do. I am by no means suggesting that the game be simplified as in your simple Tetris analogy. I simply think that creating those two fitting resources instead of having one is at this point arbitrary. I am open to well thought out reasons why the two are more than arbitrary, and how they can be used to provide depth. It is just that given my experience with Dust, there seemed less rhyme and reason as to how much an item cost, and what I could and couldn't fit given those costs. Some items seemed cheap compared to their benefits, while others cost too many resources and provided too little in return. Maybe their was some logic to it I couldn't grasp, but that is how I perceived it. I agree with Varoth in that depth can be gained elsewhere. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17149	Posted - 2017.05.16 23:07:00 - [51] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Sigh They're finally considering capacitors...and it's for dropsuits Wtf. One Eyed King wrote: From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. They want to add real time resource management to ground based run and gun gameplay, so this argument sort of falls flat on its face lol. PG/CPU was not a real time resource management portion of Dust... Fitting was not a real time strategy game... I was merely staying within the scope of discussion. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 19149	Posted - 2017.05.17 00:30:00 - [52] - Quote I was talking about Capacitor....aka, real time resource management.... Rage flavored bitter berry
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1479	Posted - 2017.05.17 00:33:00 - [53] - Quote I guess I need to know why we had fitting resources in the first place. Because Eve Online had them? How far can we break away from Eve Online before the game no longer feels like an Eve game? Do we trash fitting resources completely? What if we just did loadouts? Picking a class and suit would dictate what modules and weapons are available to for you to fit. You still can customize the suit, but only with whatever CCP says you can use for modules and weapons. No need to track fitting costs, because you can fit anything to the suit that CCP allows you to select. Some items may be locked to specific classes, and some may be used on all classes. Anything deemed too OP by CCP by simply be tuned by preventing certain combinations of modules weapons. and then we could get rid of pg/cpu completely.
Clone D Solo Zen 2215	Posted - 2017.05.17 00:41:00 - [54] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Clone D wrote: How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc. I feel weight is kind of redundant. Limited module slots is effectively the same thing and so I don't feel it would be necessary to include weight and incumbency. As for speed variations, if there are modules that increase your speed there's no need for things that decrease it, since that's the same as an absence of speed enhancements. I imagine carried weight as more of a fuzzy constraint. Extreme example: Can you carry that HMG with your lightweight suit? Yeah, but it wasn't designed to do so, therefore suffer a 85% speed, turn rate, aiming penalty like I can't lift my cross hairs above the waist line because my suit just can't hold the weight up. So, maybe I can slot a couple of speed modules to counter the effect a little bit, but those have a weight as well, so they contribute to my overall payload (carried weight). I'm sure that we could devise some kind of logarithmic formula that takes into account the weight capacity as the amount of weight that a suit is classed to handle, and the payload as the total weight of the equipment, weapons, modules (ammo?) being carried, to enforce a fuzzy boundary to the weight limit of the suit. It could form a shallow asymptote for T1 suits and a steep asymptote for T3 suits. Hypothetical example light suit (capacity 7.25 kg) sidearm 1 kg weapon 2.3 kg light armor 3.4 kg scanner 0.4 kg <<<<< If this is all I carry, than I am under the 7.25 kg capacity, so no penalties apply ... but then I really want to add that T3 dampener dampener 0.7 kg <<<<<< barely over the limit so apply our hypothetical formula yielding a speed/turn/aim penalty of 2.1%
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10850	Posted - 2017.05.17 02:59:00 - [55] - Quote byte modal wrote: On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests. Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine. Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? Dust definitely had a lack of explanations for things, but I feel like the PC crowd is a bit more capable of grasping concepts than the console crowd in the F2P market and as a whole. You don't necessarily need a PvE example of how to fit a Dropsuit (how would that even work, anyways?) assuming we go back using our MQs, there should be an assistant hologram that can walk around the room and give the players a tour the first time they spawn in. Once they get to the fitting screen, just explain that the CPU and PG of a suit are the limiters of what you can fit. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
Clone D Solo Zen 2217	Posted - 2017.05.17 13:40:00 - [56] - Quote ROMULUS H3X wrote: Having them combined into one might allow for more possible loadouts. More is better, right! .......right? I concur. More variety is better. The player can then create a fitting that is more expressive of his/her play style.
Moorian Flav 650	Posted - 2017.05.17 14:13:00 - [57] - Quote This thread had turned a bit negative and even argumentative. Due to that, I'd like to point out a few things: Nova is not DUST. Even though all of us liked DUST, Nova is striving to be better than DUST was while also being more welcoming to new players outside of the DUST/EVE universe. To accomplish that, things have to change from what they were in DUST. Rather than simply say you don't like something or arguing against, try coming up with ways to improve what CCP is going with. As for me, earlier in the thread I suggested Civ and T1 suits uss power core system while T2 and T3 suits use CPU/PG. That system would accomplish both good NPE while also being true to EVE. Sticking to the point above, Nova should have a better NPE than DUST as DUST basically did not have one due to being stuck in a perpetual beta. Even on EVE side, CCP has improved NPE in recent years by expanding their tutorials and even adding voice so new players do not have to read through screen after screen. Due to that, I am guessing Nova will also have tutorials explaining mostly everything about Nova to new players. Therefore, I would not worry about NPE or players not knowing what is what. Lastly, try to stay on point. Even I had gotten off subject as am overjoyed to get responses from Rattati. In the end though, it's not really helpful as it makes it hard for anyone including CCP to take out anything beneficial from the discussion in the end. One fortunate thing of only the diehards remaining on the forum is this thread did not explode and go off into multiple tangents too much already. I am not meaning to preach here. I am just trying to move forward with this discussion. In all honesty, we have too few details on Nova to do anything more than provide our opinion and basic ideas around the question provided in the Subject. To provide anything more than that is wasted effort due to the little we actually know about Nova. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1445	Posted - 2017.05.17 15:13:00 - [58] - Quote Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system. Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova? It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suits A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina? Because that was like the only selling point of the Amarr scout, you could run a long time. Your friendly Pub match logi
byte modal 1303	Posted - 2017.05.17 15:14:00 - [59] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Quote: If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from. I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change. What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered? I'm fundamentally against anything that moves further away from EvE. The fact you're even considering something like this means Nova is moving generally away from EvE. Sorry, not interested. Yeah, I had a near similar reaction at first but I posted my thoughts and waited for further replies. I thought the first page was good insight and broke a few of my assumptions. If you haven't already, please do read on a bit more. Also, I was wondering when you might pop in ;) <3 kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 1303	Posted - 2017.05.17 15:17:00 - [60] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system. Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova? It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suits A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina? Because that was like the only selling point of the Amarr scout, you could run a long time. Good point: Cap vs. Stamina. What's the difference? Mostly, I'm just fishing for more context in anything that I can get. cough inquiring minds cough kitten bacon taco (nom)

Moorian Flav 651	Posted - 2017.05.17 15:21:00 - [61] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina? That's a really good question. I assumed Stamina would remain separate (especially if there are speed modules as speculated earlier in thread) but keeping track of shield/armor, bullets in clip, deployables, stamina, and now capacitor is quite a bit to keep track of while getting shot at. Then again, Nova is supposed to be more like EVE so that may be exactly what CCP is going for with Nova. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC 2225	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:17:00 - [62] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Should PG and CPU be combined into one? Should we play f CallOfDuty? No, thanxx. Please support fair play!
Moorian Flav 651	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:24:00 - [63] - Quote John Psi wrote: Should we play f CallOfDuty? REALLY?!? CPU/PG is all that kept DUST from being CoD? I don't know much about CoD as never been a fan but I severely doubt that. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9266	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:29:00 - [64] - Quote I almost feel like people are not really reading and assuming I'm the one suggesting we combine them...lol EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC 2225	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:33:00 - [65] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: CPU/PG is all that kept DUST from being CoD? No, and I see no reason to refuse these pleasant differences. It does not matter, it's about one of the differences or all of them. I want to see results of quality work, not simplification. Otherwise, I just will not pay. Please support fair play!
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC 2225	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:38:00 - [66] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I almost feel like people are not really reading and assuming I'm the one suggesting we combine them...lol No, I know that you are against this sh!t. Dont worry and thanxx 4 dat topic. Please support fair play!
byte modal 1305	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:39:00 - [67] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina? That's a really good question. I assumed Stamina would remain separate (especially if there are speed modules as speculated earlier in thread) but keeping track of shield/armor, bullets in clip, deployables, stamina, and now capacitor is quite a bit to keep track of while getting shot at. Then again, Nova is supposed to be more like EVE so that may be exactly what CCP is going for with Nova. I guess it depends on how you come at it. I'll argue some assumptions because there's no way to know without... knowing. Ya know? ;) Reading that line "... keeping track of shield/armor, bullets in clip, deployables, stamina, and now capacitor is quite a bit to keep track of while getting shot at." made me twitch. I know I'm running way down a tangent here, but that's OK. What else is there to do? Assuming the idea of cap and stam are involved, would this not complicate immediate user interactions? I mean, the argument could be asked that if such things must exist, would it be easier to manage such meta during pre-combat fitting stages using PG/CPU to determine fitting and stamina levels before going into batter, as opposed to tracking consumables, stamina, and cap (or whatever) during a shootout? I think that all goes back to some of Clone D's questions earlier as to what the intent is with NOVA combat: are we run&gun or are we holding ground for a longer engagement? Either way (or really any* way, because we really have no clue here as to one way or another of an infinite list of others) it ends up, user interface is going to have to be better. Whether it's for back-end planning of specs and load outs in a fashion we are used to with PG/CPU (however it works out in the end), or for the HUD design to be able to still manage stam, cap, and everything else during combat. If the design is to be more like EvE, I'd still argue to keep PG/CPU, to at least build on the established logic from DUST, and to keep in line with EvE standards. Selfish, maybe, but I really loved that aspect of DUST as compared to other shooters. Now if I wanted to just be a ** then I might suggest consolidating shields and armor. Put them both in the same slots, and remove the weaponry specialization to counter shield or armor. Make it so that bullets just do damage. Let everything else be cosmetic. But I'm just being jerky for the hell of it. But there is a real point in that silliness, i.e., where is the line drawn, and how far are we willing to cross it? And to what end? UGH I hate not knowing a damned thing!!** EDIT: *I can't find the post I was referring to earlier in this thread. It might have been by Dust Fiend. kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 1305	Posted - 2017.05.17 16:41:00 - [68] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: I almost feel like people are not really reading and assuming I'm the one suggesting we combine them...lol lol. yeah =\ you might need to copy over your first response to the OP... just to reiterate ;) kitten bacon taco (nom)
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1445	Posted - 2017.05.17 18:27:00 - [69] - Quote byte modal wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system. Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova? It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suits A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina? Because that was like the only selling point of the Amarr scout, you could run a long time. Good point: Cap vs. Stamina. What's the difference? Mostly, I'm just fishing for more context in anything that I can get. cough inquiring minds cough In Eve your Cap gets used by your modules that are active and dictates how long you can run active modules before you are forced to shut them down and recharge. A CAP would bring balance to Logistic spams and the dreaded Cloak Scout amongst other things. Stamina can be kept separate Your friendly Pub match logi
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 8128	Posted - 2017.05.17 19:09:00 - [70] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Beside combining PG/CPU, do even more and add stacking penalty to fitting requirements, so that fitting another 'tanking' module cost more than previous one, so that running around with all slots being: shield extensions or armor plates is imposible/or very resorce consuming. I think things like Armour Plate should give a percentage increase in health rather than a fixed value. 1) Stacking penalties applied to anything with a % increase, and did not apply to Armor because it was fixed value. 2) Brick Tanked Scouts competed with Assault suits because Armor gave the same fixed armor increase to a Scout suit as it did to a Heavy suit. With a % increase, the increase would be based on the original health of the suit, so it would be harder to tank the light fast suits and easier to tank the slow heavy suits. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1447	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:13:00 - [71] - Quote byte modal wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Quote: If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from. I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change. What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered? I'm fundamentally against anything that moves further away from EvE. The fact you're even considering something like this means Nova is moving generally away from EvE. Sorry, not interested. Yeah, I had a near similar reaction at first but I posted my thoughts and waited for further replies. I thought the first page was good insight and broke a few of my assumptions. If you haven't already, please do read on a bit more. Also, I was wondering when you might pop in ;) <3 Ha! I'm always lurking. I may not post much because the conversation maybe isn't going in a direction I can add value. Something like this, though, I had to say something. If anything, we should be ADDING, not subtracting. We need a capacitor for instance. In EvE the capacitor is used to build up a charge, powered by the PG, which can be released in a single pulse of energy, exactly as you would expect for energy, plasma or hybrid weapons, but not necessary at all for artillery or explosive weapons. This would really mix up the suits and the fittings and would make the whole thing much more interesting. It would also almost certainly preclude using certain weapons on certain suits, if there was not enough capacitor on the suits for them. CPU also should always be a separate resource, unless you're going to put a CPU module on a suit, powered from the PG, which is there to supply CPU to weapons and modules that need it (presumably some won't). I think generally though, everything on a powered suit is going to need CPU, at least for control purposes. So PG and CPU would be needed for every module or weapon, and Cap would be needed for firing energy charges of one form or another, bursts of speed, etc. Condensing all these resources into one would be ludicrous.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1880	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:38:00 - [72] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: earlier in the thread I suggested Civ and T1 suits use power core system while T2 and T3 suits use CPU/PG. That system would accomplish both good NPE while also being true to EVE. That just means twice the effort to develop and maintain 1 aspect of the game, while also meaning the player base will have to learn and setup both as well. Seems like a waste. LOL KILLZ wrote: Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system. Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova? It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suits More importantly, can we bleed out blueberrys and steal their ****? "help I need a medic" "Hurry up and die you skraaaab, I want your suit!"
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1448	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:41:00 - [73] - Quote byte modal wrote: On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests. Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine. Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? With regard to NPE, why not have simplified suits with limited everything and simplified weapons and modules that did not have the necessity for balancing PG, CPU (and Cap) and were therefore easy to fit for players who knew nothing about such things, but as soon as they wanted to get into some more serious fittings, they needed to progress onto suits, weapons and modules that were racially varied in all these aspects. That would make the whole thing easy for the NPE and satisfyingly complex for the more experienced player.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1448	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:46:00 - [74] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: In regards to complexity... One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust. So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second. So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. Perhaps I don't know enough about the system myself. Why do we need a CPU/PG system? Is it also possible that the system was not innately flawed, but that it was simply poorly executed? I don't think that I could be confident in any points I make if there is something fundamental I am missing. Why do we need CPU/PG/Cap? Because different racial fittings and weapons need different mixes of them. The only reason you would want to go with a single resource is if you wanted to go to a single faction for all suits, weapons and modules, which is exactly what I feel is the point here and which I'm definitely against.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17154	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:49:00 - [75] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Beside combining PG/CPU, do even more and add stacking penalty to fitting requirements, so that fitting another 'tanking' module cost more than previous one, so that running around with all slots being: shield extensions or armor plates is imposible/or very resorce consuming. I think things like Armour Plate should give a percentage increase in health rather than a fixed value. 1) Stacking penalties applied to anything with a % increase, and did not apply to Armor because it was fixed value. 2) Brick Tanked Scouts competed with Assault suits because Armor gave the same fixed armor increase to a Scout suit as it did to a Heavy suit. With a % increase, the increase would be based on the original health of the suit, so it would be harder to tank the light fast suits and easier to tank the slow heavy suits. I always thought this should be the case as well. It also eliminated Assaults having the HP of Heavies etc. Same should go for other mods I think. It would work well for whatever EWAR, Speed, and Bandwidth corollaries there are. That way you could differentiate suits/races/roles will still allowing some flexibility. It also reduces roles bleeding over one another as happened so many times in Dust. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1448	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:50:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate? This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only] Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive] At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU] Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted] What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it ALL of these options should be available for simplified fittings for use in NPE. Once a player wishes to advance past NPE, they should have to start thinking about balancing resources.
Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1448	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:56:00 - [77] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Sigh They're finally considering capacitors...and it's for dropsuits Wtf. One Eyed King wrote: From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. They want to add real time resource management to ground based run and gun gameplay, so this argument sort of falls flat on its face lol. Capacitors should be used for dropsuits and vehicles alike. It's not whether it's a dropsuit or a vehicle that matters, but what the capacitor is used for which should always be a store of energy to be released in a single charge, for instance, for firing energy weapons.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1880	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:57:00 - [78] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Why do we need CPU/PG/Cap? Because different racial fittings and weapons need different mixes of them. The only reason you would want to go with a single resource is if you wanted to go to a single faction for all suits, weapons and modules, which is exactly what I feel is the point here and which I'm definitely against. Different racial and suit bonuses for different modules would surely be enough reason to build a variety of setups?
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17154	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:58:00 - [79] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: In regards to complexity... One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust. So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second. So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. Perhaps I don't know enough about the system myself. Why do we need a CPU/PG system? Is it also possible that the system was not innately flawed, but that it was simply poorly executed? I don't think that I could be confident in any points I make if there is something fundamental I am missing. Why do we need CPU/PG/Cap? Because different racial fittings and weapons need different mixes of them. The only reason you would want to go with a single resource is if you wanted to go to a single faction for all suits, weapons and modules, which is exactly what I feel is the point here and which I'm definitely against. I think for the sake of this discussion, we have been treating CPU/PG separately from Cap, given Pokey's insistence that Capacitors are a separate topic, and Rattati's statement that suggested they are being used, in addition to the single resource that replaces CPU/PG. I don't think the conclusion that all suits will be one faction automatically follows CPU/PG becoming one resource. If, hypothetically speaking, having just one resource instead of two somehow DID mean that there was only a single faction for all suits, I would categorically oppose the change. I don't think anyone wants a shallow game. I just think that those of us who are OK with the change believe that there are other means of differentiation than CPU/PG. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Nomex Gallatin Direct Action Resources Rise Of Legion. 181	Posted - 2017.05.17 22:58:00 - [80] - Quote I will take what I can get, but I am with Fox on this one, the PG and CPU made fitting an art. If I had my druthers, I wouldn't change that. I liked it in Eve Online, and I thought it was fitting (pun intended) for Dust 514. GÇ£GÇª shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.GÇ¥ - General Heinz Gaedke

Alena Asakura Rogue Clones Yulai Federation 1448	Posted - 2017.05.17 23:04:00 - [81] - Quote byte modal wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: Rattati, one aspect of Eve that really surprised me and quite honestly impressed me was the salvage system. Could it be possible to incorporate a salvager module in Nova? It would tick me off in Dust when I would go try to revive a fallen comrade that pressed X only for that guy to respawn and leave me out in the open to possibly get shot or Die just to help him out. Maybe we can shoot the corpse with nanites and repurpose the suits A capacitor would be sweet to see in Nova. But would it do away with stamina? Because that was like the only selling point of the Amarr scout, you could run a long time. Good point: Cap vs. Stamina. What's the difference? Mostly, I'm just fishing for more context in anything that I can get. cough inquiring minds cough There's a BIG difference. Cap is for sudden bursts of something, like firing a weapon, bursts of speed, boosting shields, etc. Stamina is about staying power, and therefore is more about being able to keep going for longer. Perhaps the capacitor could be used for both? But the uses would be different - bursts of energy expended from the capacitor would instantly lower its level by that amount, where stamina would require a continuous drain which could end up depleting the capacitor altogether if not managed.
DUST Fiend 19158	Posted - 2017.05.17 23:07:00 - [82] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Capacitors should be used for dropsuits and vehicles alike. It's not whether it's a dropsuit or a vehicle that matters, but what the capacitor is used for which should always be a store of energy to be released in a single charge, for instance, for firing energy weapons. Im not necessarily arguing for or against the idea, just noting the frustration of having a mechanic pilots asked for for years only just now being considered now that vehicles are no more. I really shouldnt be surpised at this point. It also seems odd for them to say theyre looking to simplify and streamline things like using a single resource while simultaneously considering something that will make noobs rage when they cant track all their resources mid firefight. I guess Im struggling to see what direction NOVA is trying to head in. Rage flavored bitter berry
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1151	Posted - 2017.05.18 02:44:00 - [83] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Capacitors should be used for dropsuits and vehicles alike. It's not whether it's a dropsuit or a vehicle that matters, but what the capacitor is used for which should always be a store of energy to be released in a single charge, for instance, for firing energy weapons. Im not necessarily arguing for or against the idea, just noting the frustration of having a mechanic pilots asked for for years only just now being considered now that vehicles are no more. I really shouldnt be surpised at this point. It also seems odd for them to say theyre looking to simplify and streamline things like using a single resource while simultaneously considering something that will make noobs rage when they cant track all their resources mid firefight. I guess Im struggling to see what direction NOVA is trying to head in. Brick wall.
DeadlyAztec11 10149	Posted - 2017.05.18 03:16:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Draxus Prime wrote: like get x amount of ammo resupplied you would unlock a better nanonhive? not set in stone, but think battlefield class progression, plus sharing items between classes once they are unlocked. The more classes played, the bigger the inventory. This is in regards to basic class gear such as repair tool for logis, cloak field for infiltrators etc That doesn't sound very fun. For example, if I play as a scout I would have to dedicate X amount of time to playing logi even though I'm not interested in logistics outside of that role. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2746	Posted - 2017.05.18 03:24:00 - [85] - Quote I'm all for CPU/PG. Single resource just doesn't speak to me. It made fitting all the more interesting. Calling it a complex system for new players strucks me as odd. Are we assuming that most players are under the age of 10 or are they simply unable to understand 2 variables? There is one more thing. Say we have a single resource for fitting, does that mean that all suits will have the same amount? Kincats used to take a lot of PG. This meant that Caldari scout had a really hard time fitting them. On the other hand you could fit him with quite some eHP. It was OK because Caldari are not about speed right? So if we have a single resource will we be able to just do what we want with each suit? What I mean by this is that CPU/PG made it so not every faction suit could fit the same stuff as other faction's suit. You could but at a bigger cost. It was hard to make Caldari faster than Gallente while maintaing other stats due to lack of PG. PG/CPU - fit what you can (the point of factions) Single Resource - fit what you want Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DUST Fiend 19168	Posted - 2017.05.18 03:52:00 - [86] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Brick wall. I prefer to think of myself as more of a super sticky yet strangely delicious cluster-web of frosting. Tomato tomato though. On to the thread at large, please don't tell me I just read class progression :/ How would that work with SP, or are you guys looking to drastically change / do away with SP? Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9280	Posted - 2017.05.18 03:54:00 - [87] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Brick wall. I prefer to think of myself as more of a super sticky yet strangely delicious cluster-web of frosting. Tomato tomato though. On to the thread at large, please don't tell me I just read class progression :/ How would that work with SP, or are you guys looking to drastically change / do away with SP? Well they said from the very start they're going with a "Use it to skill into it" system. Makes sense that the more you use it, the more options you unlock as your skill with it increases. That's effectively "class progression" EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19168	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:03:00 - [88] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Brick wall. I prefer to think of myself as more of a super sticky yet strangely delicious cluster-web of frosting. Tomato tomato though. On to the thread at large, please don't tell me I just read class progression :/ How would that work with SP, or are you guys looking to drastically change / do away with SP? Well they said from the very start they're going with a "Use it to skill into it" system. Makes sense that the more you use it, the more options you unlock as your skill with it increases. That's effectively "class progression" My rage now is nothing to my rage back then, I don't recall any of that. It makes sense yes, but this a universe where you can have knowledge literally injected into your brain, so it seems like yet another departure from the Universe at large. I hate knowing that you all must hate seeing my name on posts almost as much as I do sometimes, I don't mean to be so negative about the project I just feel...I don't know, like the game that literally helped me through the hardest part of my life is just...gone. Still trying to come to terms with that. Sorry guys :/ Rage flavored bitter berry
byte modal 1312	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:09:00 - [89] - Quote But but...Weapon Masters were done away with back in v4.0.1, I thought? >=P~ kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9283	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:11:00 - [90] - Quote I hear you man, its obviously an emotional thing for a lot of people. Even I, despite the boundless optimism, am fairly concerned about some of the ideas being presented. Even so details are scarce and I'm just trying to keep an open mind of....who knows, it may be really different, but I may like it even more. Might not. Can't tell right now, but at least we're having a good open conversation about this stuff. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer

DUST Fiend 19169	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:16:00 - [91] - Quote I know I'm an ******* most of the time but even though I don't know any of you guys here personally, I'm really grateful for you all. Especially pillars like Pokey standing through our darkest hour, I come down hard and unreasonably sometimes but I'm glad you're around. I didn't spend much time there but my time with OSG was the best I've ever had in a group setting in a game before. Awesome group of people. Damn I miss those days. Rage flavored bitter berry
Maken Tosch DUST University 13758	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:27:00 - [92] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I know I'm an ******* most of the time but even though I don't know any of you guys here personally, I'm really grateful for you all. Especially pillars like Pokey standing through our darkest hour, I come down hard and unreasonably sometimes but I'm glad you're around. I didn't spend much time there but my time with OSG was the best I've ever had in a group setting in a game before. Awesome group of people. Damn I miss those days. Comes to show that if Nova finally arrives this one big happy Dust family will be there waiting for you. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Clone D Solo Zen 2220	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:32:00 - [93] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: ... the game that literally helped me through the hardest part of my life is just...gone. You're not alone, Mr. Fiend. It calls to me like crack. It makes me wonder if I ever learned to self soothe or if I am somehow regressing back to an earlier state of cognitive development. What the hay!? It was just a video game, but it was also a part of my identity. How did that happen? Was it the endless hours patiently enduring the glitches hoping for something better? I don't know, but I need psychological help man. Why do I keep coming to this forum, when I know that Nova isn't going to feed the monkey? No other video game has ever had this effect on me. Why did I connect with Dust 514?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9283	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:39:00 - [94] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I know I'm an ***** most of the time but even though I don't know any of you guys here personally, I'm really grateful for you all. Especially pillars like Pokey standing through our darkest hour, I come down hard and unreasonably sometimes but I'm glad you're around. I didn't spend much time there but my time with OSG was the best I've ever had in a group setting in a game before. Awesome group of people. Damn I miss those days. I mean here's how I see it man. could be completely different, could be a totally different feeling game. And sure, game had some great bits, also had some really ** bits. But why are you still here? Game isn't even playable, yet we're still here....talking about this like a bunch of addicts. It's really not that much about the game as it is about the community. So yeah it may be different, may be better or worse, but we'll still tear that ** up regardless of what form it may take. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19172	Posted - 2017.05.18 04:48:00 - [95] - Quote I have an addictive and self abusive personality sooooo, that probably explains a lot lol. This game just had a huge impact on me like almost no other game had, except maybe Morrowind and the original Halo (my first FPS). I feel like I have to see this through to the bitter end, and even though this game is over the new one is still theoretically on its way so I'm honor and rage bound to at least stay tuned in for the duration. Working ** jobs for ** pay with high rent and bills means not much free time for this guy, so I have to really pick and choose what I have time for. Right now SC is likely to gobble up a big chunk of my time in the future, or possibly SW:BF2. My gf and I have also been talking about playing an MMO which I've sort of resisted for a while so who knows. Perhaps the future is bright for this IP but that's exactly it: perhaps. I just keep telling myself I have to wait and see and stop being such a debbie downer. Anyways, I have really derailed this thread, don't feed the animals @_@ Rage flavored bitter berry
DiablosMajora 461	Posted - 2017.05.18 09:24:00 - [96] - Quote Why not have combined resource for introductory Civ/T1 for the noobs and then progress into the separate CPU/PG as you git gud in the T2/T3 gear? Becomes more competitive over time. Prepare your angus
Clone D Solo Zen 2221	Posted - 2017.05.18 11:30:00 - [97] - Quote DiablosMajora wrote: Why not have combined resource for introductory Civ/T1 for the noobs and then progress into the separate CPU/PG as you git gud in the T2/T3 gear? Becomes more competitive over time. I don't know about that. Not all players are equally as smart. We should probably take into account the intelligence of each player type. Use the Dumbed Down Resource (DDR) appropriately based on learning curve: Scout [smartest] - CPU/PG applies to Civ - T3 Logi [above average] - DDR applies to Civ. CPU/PG applies to T1 - T3 Assault [avg intelligence] - DDR applies to Civ/T1. CPU/PG applies T2/T3 Heavy [dumb] - DDR applies Civ - T2. CPU/PG applies T3 Tanker [dumbest] - DDR applies Civ - T3
Moorian Flav 656	Posted - 2017.05.18 14:40:00 - [98] - Quote I posted this in another thread when should have went here: Moorian Flav wrote: Here is an example of how both Power Core and CPU/PG can both be used: - Civ/T1 suits have Energy Units (EU). - T2/T3 suits have CPU/PG Basically, EU is a simplified CPU/PG system where CPU/PG is added together (shown below with fudged numbers). - Civ Assault: 90 EU (= 45 CPU + 45 PG) - T1 Assault: 100 EU (= 50 CPU + 50 PG) - T2 Assault: 80 CPU/40 PG (= 120 EU) - T3 Assault: 90 CPU/50 PG (= 140 EU) This can be explained via lore by saying EU is a simpler power system but is limited where the CPU/PG system is needed for higher power and more advanced suits. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 615	Posted - 2017.05.18 18:06:00 - [99] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Beside combining PG/CPU, do even more and add stacking penalty to fitting requirements, so that fitting another 'tanking' module cost more than previous one, so that running around with all slots being: shield extensions or armor plates is imposible/or very resorce consuming. I think things like Armour Plate should give a percentage increase in health rather than a fixed value. 1) Stacking penalties applied to anything with a % increase, and did not apply to Armor because it was fixed value. 2) Brick Tanked Scouts competed with Assault suits because Armor gave the same fixed armor increase to a Scout suit as it did to a Heavy suit. With a % increase, the increase would be based on the original health of the suit, so it would be harder to tank the light fast suits and easier to tank the slow heavy suits. I disagree with your opinion. Complex Armour Plate is fix dimension name, there is logic behind it, it has it's size, width, length, thickness, it is material and you can touch it. Armour Plate giving a percentage increase rather then flat amount have same logic as it requires PG/CPU to be fitted in first place, same as all boosters did in Dust. If you put heavy armor plate on front of your car, it burn more fuel, it moves and accelerate slower it has lower suspension, same as in Dust with moving speed pennalytys, but armor plate itself do not requires any PG/CPU in the car, right? On the side note thats the thing with 'PG/CPU Defenders' in this topick, they defend it becasue they are used to it, they do not consider it to have any defects - so much in the subject of objective opinion of our forum members. On perfect FPS game, as I imagine. Players should have option to fit reinforce body armor by ataching Armor Plates to existing armor they have, rather then having option to fit as many 'free slots' you have on your layout UI, and so on: - Biggest armor increess, should go to armor chest and back as one pice, because it covers larges pice of body, beside it can be easlly balance. - Secoundlly legs, shorts. - Third option left/right shoulder/s.. if you keep wepon on your left hand you want to have extra armor on left shoulder, but to balance weght you need to carry some heavy equipment on another shoulder ...and so on. You can reinforce same body part a few times but not with the same thickness of matterial, it hase to me thinner layer each time. And now imagine how scanning mechanic should work on game like that - it should not be 'a red dot on minimap' but body posture with spots that can be easlly penetrate by your weapon, so you can consider flanking your enemy and killing him faster by bypassing the reinforced plates that he installed on his suit... But CCP will never, ever do a game with mechanics even close to that point. This is Skirmish v1.0. In my free time I like to spend time.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 8136	Posted - 2017.05.18 19:10:00 - [100] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: One Eyed King wrote: From reading through the thread, it seems to me that some people are equating complexity with depth. I don't think that is necessarily true. Some of the best games, video and otherwise are fairly simple, yet still have depth. My problem with complexity for complexity's sake is that the more moving parts there are, the more various interactions there are, the more room for glitches and potential abuses that can occur. If there is a legit reason for having more complex parts, and they substantially add to the depth, fun, and strategy for the game, I am all for it. But merely having complexity for its own sake is just asking to revisit the worst parts of Dust; the brokenness, glitchiness, and imbalance that ruined an otherwise amazing game. Except it's not complexity for the sake of complexity. Dual resources allow for a sort of game of finding ratios of the two for each module you use that give you the optimal use of each. Think of it like Tetris. A single resource is like filling up a space that is 1 block wide and all you have are line pieces. of various legnths. Simple right? All you have to do is drop them A dual resource resource system is like traditional tertris, where you have blocks of multiple dimensions that have to be fit together in an optimal configuration. More complicated, but which game is more fun? But that isn't how Dust actually worked... If you looked at the modules being used, and many of the guns being used, it was less about fitting, and more about what worked best. There was some fitting optimization, but little to none of it had to do with the PG/CPU dynamic, the caveat being that 90% of the time I used one type of suit, and considering it was a Scout M-1, I had a lot of optimizing to do. I am by no means suggesting that the game be simplified as in your simple Tetris analogy. I simply think that creating those two fitting resources instead of having one is at this point arbitrary. I am open to well thought out reasons why the two are more than arbitrary, and how they can be used to provide depth. It is just that given my experience with Dust, there seemed less rhyme and reason as to how much an item cost, and what I could and couldn't fit given those costs. Some items seemed cheap compared to their benefits, while others cost too many resources and provided too little in return. Maybe their was some logic to it I couldn't grasp, but that is how I perceived it. I agree with Varoth in that depth can be gained elsewhere. There was no rhyme or reason to a lot of things in DUST, such as weapon balancing and such. Retatti accomplished a lot by sorting out a relations such as damage vs range for weapons and realigning suit slots. But Ratatti never took the time to workout an overarching theme on how CPU and PG requirements were distributed. (There were higher priorities at the time.) The point is that the system does have benefits if done right, and it could easily be done better than in DUST by taking an overall statistical view of the big picture and mapping out how the relationships should balance. (The sort of thing Ratatti is really good at.) Which is not to saw that replacing the PG/CPU balance with other balance considerations would not work as well. I am just saying the PG/CPU balance worked, even when poorly implemented, so I am a bit supersized that they are ditching it rather than refining it. But then we don't have all the details, so there are probably benefits to the approach they are taking as well. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 8136	Posted - 2017.05.18 19:12:00 - [101] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: I guess I need to know why we had fitting resources in the first place. Because Eve Online had them? How far can we break away from Eve Online before the game no longer feels like an Eve game? Do we trash fitting resources completely? What if we just did loadouts? Picking a class and suit would dictate what modules and weapons are available to for you to fit. You still can customize the suit, but only with whatever CCP says you can use for modules and weapons. No need to track fitting costs, because you can fit anything to the suit that CCP allows you to select. Some items may be locked to specific classes, and some may be used on all classes. Anything deemed too OP by CCP can simply be tuned by preventing certain combinations of modules weapons. Like No dual tanking because shield dropsuits wouldn't allow you to select armor plates on them (or maybe only certain plates) and then we could get rid of pg/cpu completely. --------------------------------------------------------- If I wanted the Devs to hold my hand and make fitting decisions for me I would go back to playing WOW. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17158	Posted - 2017.05.18 19:24:00 - [102] - Quote I think he was being sarcastic and making the same point. But I don't get people going to extremes. Nova is and FPS and must fundamentally be different than EVE. Just because they share the same universe as ships doesn't mean that they must follow the same lines. For example, just because some submarines run on nuclear power doesn't mean soldiers do simply because they are in the same universe. Nova should absolutely have depth, meaningful fittings, having to make sacrifices etc. but I don't think that Nova needs to be some sort of mirror image to do so. It needs to function at a fundamental level most importantly. Besides, they wouldn't have moved Rattati back to Iceland if they didn't want Nova to have an EVE feel to it. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 8136	Posted - 2017.05.18 19:28:00 - [103] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Clone D wrote: How about fitting by weight class? Every suit type has a sustainable weight limit before it begins incurring various penalties. Every piece of equipment, each weapon, and module has a weight. If you carry more of a burden than your suit is capable of handling, then it slows you down, makes aiming sluggish, etc. with shared equipment, heavy's will simply become more powerful. There is no reason to build such inequality into the foundation Not giving Heavies an equipment slot helped to prevent this. Lack of speed also works against the Heavy being good at everything. As long as the bonuses the modules give are based on a percentage increase of the suit's core stats, rather than giving a fixed increase as armor did in DUST, the suit's core states will focus each suit size on a role type and not allow one suit to be good at everything. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DUST Fiend 19182	Posted - 2017.05.18 19:36:00 - [104] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Besides, they wouldn't have moved Rattati back to Iceland if they didn't want Nova to have an EVE feel to it. So what actually makes the game tied to EVE other than the skin? Rage flavored bitter berry
Maken Tosch DUST University 13763	Posted - 2017.05.18 20:19:00 - [105] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Besides, they wouldn't have moved Rattati back to Iceland if they didn't want Nova to have an EVE feel to it. So what actually makes the game tied to EVE other than the skin? Not to say how we handle resources cements us in the universe but the seeminly suggested removal or simplification of the skill tree for basic class progression directly flies in the face of EVE. Lacking vehicles again technically doesnt remove us from the Universe, just seems odd that they can build empire sized ships in New Eden but just cant wrap their heads around standard vehicles. Go big or go home I suppose. Given this lack of vehicles we can assume smaller maps so will Planetary Conquest even be a thing or will we be fighting over some random station? Since we will be on mostly small and interior maps (it seems) will there be any purpose for a more refined orbital system. Also woth thr removal of vehicles and thus AVcan we expect even turret installations to go away? People say the team moving back home means the game will more EVE connected but all (what little) evidence seems to point in the other direction. Eve Valkyrie also flies in the face of Eve Online with its own progression system and it is nowhere near tied to Eve Online other than just the lore. Gunjack doesn't even have it's own currency system. Yet both of these games became successful which is why there is a 2nd iteration of Gunjack and more expansions for Valkyrie. The only hindrance is how many people own any VR headset at all. Of course, they did feel very Eve like when you see Eve Online ships flying around in the background but that was just visual stuff. Although I will admit that Dust was unique because of its connection to Eve Online. Unlike Gunjack or Valkyrie, Dust 514 was directly tied to Eve Online on a level never seen before with the other games. You can't dictate FW outcomes in Eve through Valkyrie or Gunjack. You were only able to do it by playing FW in Dust. It is a bit jarring to see Nova not start off initially with a connection to Eve Online but that's because a lot of us in the past have criticized CCP relentlessly on why they didn't optimized the core gameplay before giving it the Eve treatment. So it is understandable that CCP is only focusing on making Nova stand on it's own and be successful on its own without having to piggyback on the success of Eve Online. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13763	Posted - 2017.05.18 20:23:00 - [106] - Quote As for vehicles, I'm hopeful that CCP hasn't abandoned them. They are a major set of assets after all that are still great to have in the future. The problem with them is balance. I remember the BS that pilots had to deal with. Flying tanks, jihad jeeps, dropships that literally lived up to their names, etc. It was both hilarious and traumatizing to watch. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DUST Fiend 19183	Posted - 2017.05.18 20:27:00 - [107] - Quote I dont know why I even care anymore lol, I dont play EVE and SC is going to scratch the persistent universe itch I need, I just cant shake how much this game is changing. In a market flooded with similar FPS games it seems odd to make something generic, especially on PC where you actually have that freedom of movement . You'll habe to forgive me if I dont buy into another laser focused 10 year plan just yet :/ Rage flavored bitter berry
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1479	Posted - 2017.05.18 20:45:00 - [108] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: If I wanted the Devs to hold my hand and make fitting decisions for me I would go back to playing WOW. You misunderstand. I'll illustrate for you. Pick any class of dropsuit. Scout, assault, heavy, whatever. The modules available to select are determined by the class you picked. Choose any combination of modules available to the class. So we can operate under the assumption that all classes be what we considered proto level, and ditch the inferior tiers of those versions. As you skill up or progress, you are able to fit extra modules or stronger variants of modules. This would be same thing as having to skill into resources skill and weapon fitting skills, except it appears as what most people are used to already in other games. It's not hand holding depending on execution, but it give ccp control over certain fits. No heavies with cloaking devices because a cloaking device isn't an available module to select. Or a scout with an hmg for example.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17158	Posted - 2017.05.18 20:52:00 - [109] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Besides, they wouldn't have moved Rattati back to Iceland if they didn't want Nova to have an EVE feel to it. Given this lack of vehicles we can assume smaller maps so will Planetary Conquest even be a thing or will we be fighting over some random station? Since we will be on mostly small and interior maps (it seems) will there be any purpose for a more refined orbital system. Also woth thr removal of vehicles and thus AVcan we expect even turret installations to go away? People say the team moving back home means the game will more EVE connected but all (what little) evidence seems to point in the other direction. Speculation is bad for my health :/ Warning: Following post may fall outside orignal posting's scope You brought up two good points. First and most important is that we are speculating on little evidence. We honestly could be way off base because we are considering one small sliver of a larger game that is pretty much unknown to us. We have a demo and a few details to go off of, and none if that is even set in stone. I could very easily see getting a look at Alpha and coming to the conclusion that combining energy sources did indeed take some of the depth and strategy out of Nova. At the same time, it is also possible those in favor of two may find out that a single energy resource did not hurt game play or fitting depth/strategy at all. It is just too soon to tell. Second, is the points about PC and small maps. What you seemingly aren't taking into account is that so far all we have seen are maps in space, with TDM game modes. That doesn't necessarily exclude future iterations of Nova being planet side with larger maps and vehicles. Just because I was 2 feet tall as a toddler did not mean that was all the taller I would get as I developed. In contrast, look at Star Citizen, which is trying to do everything at once. Nova can't go that route. First, you would have to be willing to give up lots of money to a game that hasn't come out and has no guarantee to do so. With CCP developing would you invest? I wouldn't. Because of this, resources are lacking. Not to mention it was announced 5 years ago, with an initial release of 3 years ago. And it still hasn't released. There is no way Nova can survive doing that. I know it sucks having to wait longer on vehicles than what the rest of us will see, but I hope that results in having an actual game, that is enjoyable for all rather than as just a bunch of Dust memories and what-could-have-beens. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 19184	Posted - 2017.05.18 20:56:00 - [110] - Quote I shouldn't have even mentioned SC, its apples and oranges when you just consider the circumstances and scopes of the projects and what not. I guess it's just that I was one of those idiots who CCP truly sold back when they first pitched the game. I really did see the game expanding into the broader EVE universe, fighting on actual planets etc etc. I know now that was entirely unreasonable of both myself to believe and them to pitch, but it is what it is. Life moves on. I really do feel like I need to keep apologizing to everyone because I don't mean to come off so abrasive on basically every topic about Nova, I'm just really worried I'll never get to go back to the DUST I fell so deeply in love with, despite it's many and glaring flaws. Man I just want something I can sink my teeth into because with all these scraps of info it's just too easy for me to get caught up in my imagination. Thanks guys for staying level headed and keeping these conversations on track o7 Rage flavored bitter berry

Nomex Gallatin Direct Action Resources Rise Of Legion. 183	Posted - 2017.05.18 21:53:00 - [111] - Quote Okay, last comment on this topic for me. I am pretty excited about Nova coming out, and I understand the need to make this a FPS first. However, there are a few things that made Dust 514 my favorite video game: 1. I liked the idea of fighting in the persistent universe CCP offers through Eve Online/Valkyrie, etc., I am sick and tired of (name your FPS here) release 1, 2, 3, etc., and always having to restart building your skills and equipment. I don't have much time to play, and I like to keep what I kill/earn through my time invested in the game. I like the fact that I can come back to my quarters daily and have a slew of equipment that I can stockpile and give to new players as they advance or sell to earn more ISK. 2. I love this community. At times it can be trite, and pedantic, still, this is one of the best communities I have ever had the privileged to be a part of. I really appreciate the fact that CCP gave us Dust 514 for free (although I did spend a lot of my hard earned money - and plan to spend a lot more in Nova), listened to us, and built a great game around our bitching and whining. 3. I liked Dust 514 because it hand the New Eden feel; the economy, the fits (CPU, PG, etc.), that both required a lot of though and rewarded experimentation. If the PG and CPU idea is changed too much, it won't have that New Eden feeling, and that is something that I believe will degrade the experience for those of us who plan on making this our primary FPS because of it's complexity. 4. I liked having to be frugal with my ISK. If you went into battle with a proto suit and equipment and you screwed the pooch, you had to pay for your stupidity - literally. We took great pride in smoking protos in BPO, it was a hell of a nice thing to slay protos and get to keep what you killed after you won a match. 5. I liked the grind. Yes, it was a ***** getting waylaid by proto (everything) as a new player (I had plenty of alt accounts to keep this firmly ingrained in my mind), but it gave you a lot of respect for the proper use of cover and tactics that required you to think and not just rush headlong into a fight. More importantly, it made you feel like you EARNED your win, and your next skill/fit. Much like Eve Online, it wasn't about the suit and equipment or even the SP, but rather it was about your skill at killing with your team. I know there are a lot of issues to deal with, and will be for years to come (just look at Eve Online), I know a lot of people want Dust 514 back, but I knew when Project Nova was announced that it would be different from Dust. Change happens, I don't expect Nova to be exactly like Dust (it won't be, I know this, and I am okay with it), but please CCP, don't change too much, because Dust 514 was a GREAT game, one that ruined all other FPS for me. I am not looking for COD, Battlefield, etc., in space with a Dust 514 skin. I am looking for a better Dust 514 that challenges serious players and rewards our efforts accordingly. In the end, I want to be the infantry arm of Eve Online, I want to feel at home in New Eden, and I want to be able to transition between Eve Online, Valkyrie, and Project Nova without dumbing down our experience in New Eden just because we are ground pounders. GÇ£GÇª shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.GÇ¥ - General Heinz Gaedke
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17158	Posted - 2017.05.18 21:55:00 - [112] - Quote 07 Don't worry. I brought up SC myself. And I think the way CCP operated in the past lent itself to people buying in to their big ideas that maybe even the devs at the time didn't realize were unrealistic and unreasonable for them to be selling. I know how upset I would be if knives were removed (or if they end up being done wrong in Nova). At least you can be honest with yourself about things. Which is far better than the "Turn Dust Servers Back On" crowd can say. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
byte modal 1313	Posted - 2017.05.18 22:25:00 - [113] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I shouldn't have even mentioned SC, its apples and oranges when you just consider the circumstances and scopes of the projects and what not. I guess it's just that I was one of those idiots who CCP truly sold back when they first pitched the game. I really did see the game expanding into the broader EVE universe, fighting on actual planets etc etc. I know now that was entirely unreasonable of both myself to believe and them to pitch, but it is what it is. Life moves on. I really do feel like I need to keep apologizing to everyone because I don't mean to come off so abrasive on basically every topic about Nova, I'm just really worried I'll never get to go back to the DUST I fell so deeply in love with, despite it's many and glaring flaws. Man I just want something I can sink my teeth into because with all these scraps of info it's just too easy for me to get caught up in my imagination. Thanks guys for staying level headed and keeping these conversations on track o7 FWIW I don't think I've ever read your posts as abrasive. At least of what I can remember. Who knows, you might have been a total ** back when the game was live but to be honest, everyone just kinda blurs into one amalgam of all the players I've ever noticed. That's age I guess. It sucks getting older. If you haven't noticed, I've turned into Blaze here following and liking damn near 95% of your posts because I'm going through the same exact roller coaster. It's almost as if now that the white noise of online rants for no other reason than to just rant has faded away, what's left is a support group like a watered down AA meeting. Watered down alcohol sucks. But that's where we are---some of us at least. For me, I adore the concept of what DUST aimed to be. I adored it even through it's shortcomings. It linked console and PC and if nothing else worked or if even that was tenuous at best, it was still a massive accomplishment in my book. DUST because somewhat of an underdog that just never could find its stride. But I've always been the type to appreciate more those that try and fail than those than become complacent and get by. As to what is what, I get it. Assuming the absolute worst, and all that I wish would not happen** does, I still get it. Business is business and if abandoning every single aspect of what I felt DUST could have been had everything fallen into the right place at the right time is the path to what NOVA actually becomes, then I still get it. And I wish it well, as I do to the future players, developers, and committed fans. I hope that they are all as inspired by their game as I (and others) have been with DUST. I hope that I have a place in that community; but I'll be realistic, if not somewhat jaded, to my expectations on that particular point at least. Now I mostly just post sarcastic trash for a quick laugh and a like. I hate that. I just have a hard time getting excited for crumbs, realizing that as those pieces start to come together the game I am waiting for will most likely only live in resigned memory. But still, I get it! My posts are not to complain, as they are more to desperately keep my voice echoing (through the muttering) and my ears in range on the naive hope that "one day... maybe?" I might hear something of that memory rekindled. Hell. As cynical as I pretend to be most times, I still care very deeply for DUST, CCP, this community, and even the future of NOVA whether or not it aligns with my desires. I mean... I'm still here, posting ...in a dead forum ....like so many other lost clones. Clearly, I get it. I hope, but I get it. So all the best of luck to whatever may come down the pipe. Honestly at this point I'd be happy with a bone or two? Don't get any ideas, TooMany Names. I'm no catgirl. But I probably pretend to be, for the right amount of ISK. =^.^= kitten bacon taco (nom)
Sergeant Sazu Mantodea MC 1166	Posted - 2017.05.18 22:47:00 - [114] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: I disagree with your opinion. Complex Armour Plate is fix dimension name, there is logic behind it, it has it's size, width, length, thickness, it is material and you can touch it. Armour Plate giving a percentage increase rather then flat amount have same logic as it requires PG/CPU to be fitted in first place, same as all boosters did in Dust. If you put heavy armor plate on front of your car, it burn more fuel, it moves and accelerate slower it has lower suspension, same as in Dust with moving speed pennalytys, but armor plate itself do not requires any PG/CPU in the car, right? On the side note thats the thing with 'PG/CPU Defenders' in this topick, they defend it becasue they are used to it, they do not consider it to have any defects - so much in the subject of objective opinion of our forum members. On perfect FPS game, as I imagine. Players should have option to fit reinforce body armor by ataching Armor Plates to existing armor they have, rather then having option to fit as many 'free slots' you have on your layout UI, and so on: - Biggest armor increess, should go to armor chest and back as one pice, because it covers larges pice of body, beside it can be easlly balance. - Secoundlly legs, shorts. - Third option left/right shoulder/s.. if you keep wepon on your left hand you want to have extra armor on left shoulder, but to balance weght you need to carry some heavy equipment on another shoulder ...and so on. You can reinforce same body part a few times but not with the same thickness of matterial, it hase to me thinner layer each time. And now imagine how scanning mechanic should work on game like that - it should not be 'a red dot on minimap' but body posture with spots that can be easlly penetrate by your weapon, so you can consider flanking your enemy and killing him faster by bypassing the reinforced plates that he installed on his suit... But CCP will never, ever do a game with mechanics even close to that point. Maybe I'm the only one that liked to read the flavor text, but... Dropsuit armor was not just some metal bolted on omnidirectionally. It was reactive armor in a way that it dissipated the kinetic energy across a wider area. That's why taking a sniper round to the chest didn't just punch a hole even if you had enough HP to survive it. Running out of HP meant that the strength and structural integrity failed, causing the armor to "give out" and render the squishy clone inside fatally wounded. That's why armor plates costed CPU/PG at all, as it needed to be powered and programmed to "react" to harm. "Stab you to death, stab you to life!" -Truck Fist while knifing a red and reviving me
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2752	Posted - 2017.05.18 23:46:00 - [115] - Quote Business is business, but if it means stripping something of its unique nature it will suck It doesn't have to be a clone of Dust, but if too much is changed in the favor of simplification (so it's like other games) what will be potentialy left is a shell with few EVE themes. I want Nova to success, don't get me wrong. But I want for it to success for its unique mechanics. Min maxing your fits, using vehicles to secure spawn points, being able to make anything out of any suit, etc. P.S. How many times have it happend that you were creating a brand new fit or modyfing your existing one during a fight? I remember that I did quite a few times, to adjust to the situation. This game made me think. Can't think of any other fps that requires from me any form of thinking other than "I need to go to point A and shoot this guy". Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 615	Posted - 2017.05.19 02:19:00 - [116] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: I disagree with your opinion. Complex Armour Plate is fix dimension name, there is logic behind it, it has it's size, width, length, thickness, it is material and you can touch it. Armour Plate giving a percentage increase rather then flat amount have same logic as it requires PG/CPU to be fitted in first place, same as all boosters did in Dust. If you put heavy armor plate on front of your car, it burn more fuel, it moves and accelerate slower it has lower suspension, same as in Dust with moving speed pennalytys, but armor plate itself do not requires any PG/CPU in the car, right? On the side note thats the thing with 'PG/CPU Defenders' in this topick, they defend it becasue they are used to it, they do not consider it to have any defects - so much in the subject of objective opinion of our forum members. On perfect FPS game, as I imagine. Players should have option to fit reinforce body armor by ataching Armor Plates to existing armor they have, rather then having option to fit as many 'free slots' you have on your layout UI, and so on: - Biggest armor increess, should go to armor chest and back as one pice, because it covers larges pice of body, beside it can be easlly balance. - Secoundlly legs, shorts. - Third option left/right shoulder/s.. if you keep wepon on your left hand you want to have extra armor on left shoulder, but to balance weght you need to carry some heavy equipment on another shoulder ...and so on. You can reinforce same body part a few times but not with the same thickness of matterial, it hase to me thinner layer each time. And now imagine how scanning mechanic should work on game like that - it should not be 'a red dot on minimap' but body posture with spots that can be easlly penetrate by your weapon, so you can consider flanking your enemy and killing him faster by bypassing the reinforced plates that he installed on his suit... But CCP will never, ever do a game with mechanics even close to that point. Maybe I'm the only one that liked to read the flavor text, but... Dropsuit armor was not just some metal bolted on omnidirectionally. It was reactive armor in a way that it dissipated the kinetic energy across a wider area. That's why taking a sniper round to the chest didn't just punch a hole even if you had enough HP to survive it. Running out of HP meant that the strength and structural integrity failed, causing the armor to "give out" and render the squishy clone inside fatally wounded. That's why armor plates costed CPU/PG at all, as it needed to be powered and programmed to "react" to harm. You are describing resistance module from eve, and you call it armor plates. Originally all plates that were in the close beta had eve names, like "Steel Plates" - just pice of metal, nothing more(I do not remember all of them) later one all names were changed. If you gonne fit Polarized turret on you ship in eve, all your resistance drop to 0, and armor plates are exacly what they are, a layer of metal(buffer) that can be repaired with another module. This is Skirmish v1.0. In my free time I like to spend time.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1882	Posted - 2017.05.19 02:38:00 - [117] - Quote I can't really comment on how EVE-like anything is since I haven't played it... So I'd just like to ask, were there any things about Dust514 that weren't very EVE-like, or things that it was missing that EVE did have? I can't help but assume it was somewhat different and that has me thinking people are overreacting about the potential replacement of the PG-CPU fitting, which could in fact lead to more interesting design decisions elsewhere in the game. Perhaps instead of limiting fitting based on a maximum PG-CPU, the PG-CPU requirements could purely limit which modules can be active at the same time... I think that would actually make more sense and be more fun. (But it is only my very uninformed opinion, sooo, salt grains at the ready people.)
Sergeant Sazu Mantodea MC 1167	Posted - 2017.05.19 02:59:00 - [118] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Sergeant Sazu wrote: Maybe I'm the only one that liked to read the flavor text, but... Dropsuit armor was not just some metal bolted on omnidirectionally. It was reactive armor in a way that it dissipated the kinetic energy across a wider area. That's why taking a sniper round to the chest didn't just punch a hole even if you had enough HP to survive it. Running out of HP meant that the strength and structural integrity failed, causing the armor to "give out" and render the squishy clone inside fatally wounded. That's why armor plates costed CPU/PG at all, as it needed to be powered and programmed to "react" to harm. You are describing resistance module from eve, and you call it armor plates. Originally all plates that were in the close beta had eve names, like "Steel Plates" - just pice of metal, nothing more(I do not remember all of them) later one all names were changed. If you gonne fit Polarized turret on you ship in eve, all your resistance drop to 0, and armor plates are exacly what they are, a layer of metal(buffer) that can be repaired with another module. I've never played EVE, so I might be missing some context on New Eden tech. It was the Gallente Assault I believe, talking about "reactive armor" and "dissipating damage over a wide area". I figured it applied to all dropsuits considering you didn't go down until your HP hits zero rather than armor in a given spot weakening. I'm just speculating. The concept of hit points is rarely justified in other games, and I liked how Dust had lore attached to most game mechanics and items. "Stab you to death, stab you to life!" -Truck Fist while knifing a red and reviving me
Richard Gamerich-R Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 484	Posted - 2017.05.19 06:47:00 - [119] - Quote lol "SC". This game, no sorry, this pre-Alpha Alpha Alpha Alpha who will be ready in 2025 (maybe), is overrated af. On va tout déchirer !
Clone D Solo Zen 2232	Posted - 2017.05.19 12:34:00 - [120] - Quote Here's the thing. When you dumb the game down to go mainstream, then you blend in with every other game on the market and you become a FAD. I don't want a fad game. I want a game that I can get lost in, that I can play for years on end. I want to be transported into another world and learn the particulars of how to survive there. I want nuances, a steep learning curve, and lore-based justifications for why game elements exist in their deliberately designed form. I want to enter a deep and persistent alternate reality. There is a niche here that you tapped into with Dust 514; one that has room to grow. Please don't abandon it, even if the intent behind Nova doesn't match anything I just said. At some point, with another future game, pick up where you left off. Take us back into the heart of EVE. Let us dive into the sci fi FPS that we all wanted, where EVE pilots and valkyrie ships provide support to troops on the ground; where the feeling of being an EVE mercenary is unique, earned and memorable.

Nomex Gallatin Direct Action Resources Rise Of Legion. 186	Posted - 2017.05.19 14:17:00 - [121] - Quote Clone D wrote: Here's the thing. When you dumb the game down to go mainstream, then you blend in with every other game on the market and you become a FAD. I don't want a fad game. I want a game that I can get lost in, that I can play for years on end. I want to be transported into another world and learn the particulars of how to survive there. I want nuances, a steep learning curve, and lore-based justifications for why game elements exist in their deliberately designed form. I want to enter a deep and persistent alternate reality. There is a niche here that you tapped into with Dust 514; one that has room to grow. Please don't abandon it, even if the intent behind Nova doesn't match anything I just said. At some point, with another future game, pick up where you left off. Take us back into the heart of EVE. Let us dive into the sci fi FPS that we all wanted, where EVE pilots and valkyrie ships provide support to troops on the ground; where the feeling of being an EVE mercenary is unique, earned and memorable. F'n A Clotton, F'n A. Well said Clone D. GÇ£GÇª shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.GÇ¥ - General Heinz Gaedke
DUST Fiend 19198	Posted - 2017.05.19 14:21:00 - [122] - Quote Richard Gamerich-R wrote: lol "SC". This game, no sorry, this pre-Alpha Alpha Alpha Alpha who will be ready in 2025 (maybe), is overrated af. You obviously don't follow it much lol. 3.0 is right around the corner and between S42, SM, AC and the current PU the pre pre pre alpha is bigger than some games lol But stay salty lad o7 Rage flavored bitter berry
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Imperium Eden 4551	Posted - 2017.05.19 14:29:00 - [123] - Quote Seeing this makes me happy as it might show that Nova isn't, how should I say this, Legionized? So pros and cons. Pros * As Rattati said, a lot more straightforward. Not having to balance two separate things means it is easier for players and developers. * It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. * It removes frustration that occurs from having to totally downgrade specific modules and upgrade other ones just because of "I am missing one goddamn CPU but have 34 PG! So because of 1 CPU, I lose 70 HP?!" Cons: * While frustration is removed, the joy of gaming the system is missed. Whenever I managed to get a stable PG and CPU rating for my tanks and get the exact kind of power I wanted, I felt over the moon. I conquered the system and the brainpower I spent on figuring out the best load outs gave me results. (This is kind of like the 'ownership' that I think was central to DUST; this wasn't just a Caldari Assault suit or a Madrugar. It was MY Caldari Assault) * It might be a slippery-slope of removing options. "Well, if no one is using the Caldari Assault and the only Logistics used is the Minmatar one, why not just make one class?" * Equipping suits may very well become more of a 'problem' rather than a 'choice.' It becomes so much easier to say "this is simply better than that" rather than "well, the option is between a big apple or a small orange." * Any suit that has more 'fitting' than the other will overshadow the others in that same role. My thoughts: EVE is a complex game and that level of complexity should in no way shape or form be in any game that is trying to be more casual. This is one of the reasons why I loved DUST's principals. CCP is only known for one game and that game is, for lack of a better term, a gigantic megabitch of complexity. DUST, being a far faster game and being more about moment to moment stuff, was better off not having megabitch problems. However, the complexity that existed did make for a unique game. I think that scaling things back to be more approachable is a good idea. However, I am wary to think of just going that streamlined. The fitting system is probably the greatest success of DUST. Forget about the first of "we are a console game 'tied' to an MMO computer game!" that got all pomp. The notion of being able to greatly change suits was really cool. I remember making Sentinel suits with dampeners because I saw that I was able to reduce my profile to within medium for medium suits and close range for other sentinels. I was able to actually flank people and catch them off guard, even if the suit was impressively weaker. It was funny to have that. It needed the proper High and Low slots; just saying "okay, these are defensive and these offensive" removes that coolness. Overall, I think it might be a better idea to stick this idea with vehicles rather than suits assuming they are in the game. Vehicles should have very specific roles that make them useful in their role. Dropsuits, being most of the game, should still allow for some of that greater complexity. But, oddly, I am in less favor of "Defensive and Offensive" module slots rather than combining fitting into a single simple number. The fitting system is THE thing that made DUST unique, the ability to truly make the suit you are walking around in YOUR suit. Limiting that, I feel, is a bad idea. I can see the reasoning behind making CPU/PG into "Power" but High and low Slots that have multiple functionalities and choices into "Defensive is dampening, HP, or run faster" and "Offensive is damage and precision/range mods for radar" seems like a very poor decision to me. Still, it is an interesting thought. And if nothing else, I am truly happy that Nova is being looked at as "how can we make this more approachable?" rather than "so how do we get the megabitch in here?" "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2757	Posted - 2017.05.19 17:33:00 - [124] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. But isn't this the point tho :) As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them. If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar. Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1479	Posted - 2017.05.20 02:43:00 - [125] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Seeing this makes me happy as it might show that Nova isn't, how should I say this, Legionized? So pros and cons. Pros * As Rattati said, a lot more straightforward. Not having to balance two separate things means it is easier for players and developers. * It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. * It removes frustration that occurs from having to totally downgrade specific modules and upgrade other ones just because of "I am missing one goddamn CPU but have 34 PG! So because of 1 CPU, I lose 70 HP?!" Cons: * While frustration is removed, the joy of gaming the system is missed. Whenever I managed to get a stable PG and CPU rating for my tanks and get the exact kind of power I wanted, I felt over the moon. I conquered the system and the brainpower I spent on figuring out the best load outs gave me results. (This is kind of like the 'ownership' that I think was central to DUST; this wasn't just a Caldari Assault suit or a Madrugar. It was MY Caldari Assault) * It might be a slippery-slope of removing options. "Well, if no one is using the Caldari Assault and the only Logistics used is the Minmatar one, why not just make one class?" * Equipping suits may very well become more of a 'problem' rather than a 'choice.' It becomes so much easier to say "this is simply better than that" rather than "well, the option is between a big apple or a small orange." * Any suit that has more 'fitting' than the other will overshadow the others in that same role. My thoughts: EVE is a complex game and that level of complexity should in no way shape or form be in any game that is trying to be more casual. This is one of the reasons why I loved DUST's principals. CCP is only known for one game and that game is, for lack of a better term, a gigantic megabitch of complexity. DUST, being a far faster game and being more about moment to moment stuff, was better off not having megabitch problems. However, the complexity that existed did make for a unique game. I think that scaling things back to be more approachable is a good idea. However, I am wary to think of just going that streamlined. The fitting system is probably the greatest success of DUST. Forget about the first of "we are a console game 'tied' to an MMO computer game!" that got all pomp. The notion of being able to greatly change suits was really cool. I remember making Sentinel suits with dampeners because I saw that I was able to reduce my profile to within medium for medium suits and close range for other sentinels. I was able to actually flank people and catch them off guard, even if the suit was impressively weaker. It was funny to have that. It needed the proper High and Low slots; just saying "okay, these are defensive and these offensive" removes that coolness. Overall, I think it might be a better idea to stick this idea with vehicles rather than suits assuming they are in the game. Vehicles should have very specific roles that make them useful in their role. Dropsuits, being most of the game, should still allow for some of that greater complexity. But, oddly, I am in less favor of "Defensive and Offensive" module slots rather than combining fitting into a single simple number. The fitting system is THE thing that made DUST unique, the ability to truly make the suit you are walking around in YOUR suit. Limiting that, I feel, is a bad idea. I can see the reasoning behind making CPU/PG into "Power" but High and low Slots that have multiple functionalities and choices into "Defensive is dampening, HP, or run faster" and "Offensive is damage and precision/range mods for radar" seems like a very poor decision to me. Still, it is an interesting thought. And if nothing else, I am truly happy that Nova is being looked at as "how can we make this more approachable?" rather than "so how do we get the megabitch in here?" you can get the same results by doing different things though. Example of alternative game design that pic is from Tribes Ascend back in beta. it used loadouts where chossing the class would decide whats available to use. scouts could use sniper rifles, while heavies could not, which was the devs choice when they designed the game. you can pick a class/suit, choose weapons, equipment, and grenades. each class /suit has base stats and the perk lets you modify those stats it's all very simple and straight forward. Nova could easily just swap out the perks for dropsuit modules. If i gave you a box full of stuff and said, "pick anything 5 things from the box you want," its not hard. but if i said "pick any 5 things you want from anywhere but they must all fit inside the box" its a lot harder and not as straight forward. its also harder easier to balance things by adjust the size of the box vs the size of individual items being placed in the box. that's why the fitting resource constraints need to go and be replaced. balancing overall dropsuit effectiveness is easier when you only need to adjust the dropsuit stats instead the modules being used on them.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1883	Posted - 2017.05.20 09:02:00 - [126] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. But isn't this the point tho :) As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them. If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar. Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose. But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17166	Posted - 2017.05.20 15:20:00 - [127] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Mejt0 wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. But isn't this the point tho :) As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them. If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar. Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose. But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit. I agree. I think that people who think that having just one resource minimizes the choices aren't looking at the bigger picture. There is more than one way to create balance and depth, and doing so more directly will result in fewer complications. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 19203	Posted - 2017.05.20 16:08:00 - [128] - Quote If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? Rage flavored bitter berry
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2762	Posted - 2017.05.20 16:23:00 - [129] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Mejt0 wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. But isn't this the point tho :) As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them. If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar. Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose. But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit. As long as they are able to create something more than just a single dimensional fitting system I will support them on that. Since I've experienced the old system I know it worked and it would work again. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17167	Posted - 2017.05.20 19:11:00 - [130] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2400	Posted - 2017.05.20 20:36:00 - [131] - Quote My initial position on this was that I'd have no problem with combining PG and CPU as the duel resources are not necessary and therefore this would streamline the game. PG and CPU were poorly implemented in Dust causing confusion and probably putting off some players, not to mention the missed opportunity for a good system. That said, CPU and PG separately maybe could be a good system if implemented well, and has the advantage of being similar to EVE. So let's think about how it could be improved. Not only was it unintuitive, but the existence of dual resources in Dust made almost no difference from a single resource. This could be remidied. Importantly, there has to be a reason for both CPU and PG and it has to make sense thematically. For example: You could make a set of modules, such as defence modules, require a large amount of PG and little CPU, whereas auxillary modules, such as codebreakers and scanning require large amounts of CPU and little PG. Then you give heavies lots of PG and little CPU, scouts lots of CPU and little PG, and mediums a mixture. This would then encourage / force classes to fit appropriate modules. To be honest, I'd rather a less draconian fitting model. Really, the more I think about it, I see no reason for a fitting resource at all. I'd much rather be encouraged to fit class and race aligned modules because they are the ones that make sense (due to bonuses, roles and whotnot), rather than be forced into it by fitting resources. It all feels unnecessary. All you need is a limited number of slots. The only reason for a PG resources I can think of, would be if leftover PG is used to speed up cap regen or something like that. So you could deliberately choose to lightly fit your suit to allow for faster cap regen.
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2763	Posted - 2017.05.20 21:28:00 - [132] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9298	Posted - 2017.05.20 21:48:00 - [133] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. PG And CPU are indeed known well by EVE and Dust players...but also bear in mind that the target audience is not simply current CCP fans EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1480	Posted - 2017.05.21 04:12:00 - [134] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished. A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs. Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing.
DUST Fiend 19207	Posted - 2017.05.21 04:20:00 - [135] - Quote Or they could have just added a penalty for using the wrong kind of armor plate on the wrong suit. So have light medium and heavy plates, if you use a medium on a light it gives a % off the HP gained as well as adds a % to the speed penalty. Higher penalty for heavy plates. Rage flavored bitter berry
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2766	Posted - 2017.05.21 11:07:00 - [136] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. PG And CPU are indeed known well by EVE and Dust players...but also bear in mind that the target audience is not simply current CCP fans By well known I meant that people who work for CCP know how to work with it. So it would be easier (my guess) to work around. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2766	Posted - 2017.05.21 11:14:00 - [137] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished. A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs. Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing. I don't recall it being a big issue. Scouts who stacked hp were cannon food for every assault out there. And this has nothing to do with PG/CPU as it's a mod's problem. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1482	Posted - 2017.05.21 13:56:00 - [138] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished. A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs. Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing. I don't recall it being a big issue. Scouts who stacked hp were cannon food for every assault out there. And this has nothing to do with PG/CPU as it's a mod's problem. You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2766	Posted - 2017.05.21 15:42:00 - [139] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse Again, this has nothing to do with PG/CPU but with how the mods and suits worked Hit detection was a myth as people had no problems shooting down my cal scout and I was in the meta day one It wasn't about their ease of fitting shields but how much they gained duing so + at the time you didn't need any ewar mods and bonuses were recompensating that. Later after the changes Cal scout was useless. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17173	Posted - 2017.05.21 15:54:00 - [140] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse Again, this has nothing to do with PG/CPU but with how the mods and suits worked Hit detection was a myth as people had no problems shooting down my cal scout and I was in the meta day one It wasn't about their ease of fitting shields but how much they gained duing so + at the time you didn't need any ewar mods and bonuses were recompensating that. Later after the changes Cal scout was useless. The fact that it didn't have to do directly with CPU/PG is exactly why I don't buy that the two resources are needed for creating balance. Looking at Min and Gal Scouts, it was easier for the Gal Scouts to take advantage of their Dampening bonuses without much fitting sacrifice, while Kin Cats were so expensive that taking advantage of Minja speed was much more of a sacrifice (and Gal Scouts could still get within .1 or .01 m/s of top Minja speed). All of this is to say that CPU/PG's existence was as much a hindrance to balance and fitting optimization as it was a strategic consideration. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2766	Posted - 2017.05.21 16:15:00 - [141] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: The fact that it didn't have to do directly with CPU/PG is exactly why I don't buy that the two resources are needed for creating balance. Looking at Min and Gal Scouts, it was easier for the Gal Scouts to take advantage of their Dampening bonuses without much fitting sacrifice, while Kin Cats were so expensive that taking advantage of Minja speed was much more of a sacrifice (and Gal Scouts could still get within .1 or .01 m/s of top Minja speed). All of this is to say that CPU/PG's existence was as much a hindrance to balance and fitting optimization as it was a strategic consideration. It was equal. Having maxed skills you could go full proto with any suit by the end. It was fairly easy for minja to go with reds while haivng other top tier mods/guns/eq. And minja's advantage was mainly knives, speed was just an addon. On the other hand if you were to eqiup reds on caldari you could say goodbye eHP. Take a look at all 4 factions while talking about it. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17174	Posted - 2017.05.21 16:36:00 - [142] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: The fact that it didn't have to do directly with CPU/PG is exactly why I don't buy that the two resources are needed for creating balance. Looking at Min and Gal Scouts, it was easier for the Gal Scouts to take advantage of their Dampening bonuses without much fitting sacrifice, while Kin Cats were so expensive that taking advantage of Minja speed was much more of a sacrifice (and Gal Scouts could still get within .1 or .01 m/s of top Minja speed). All of this is to say that CPU/PG's existence was as much a hindrance to balance and fitting optimization as it was a strategic consideration. It was equal. Having maxed skills you could go full proto with any suit by the end. It was fairly easy for minja to go with reds while haivng other top tier mods/guns/eq. And minja's advantage was mainly knives, speed was just an addon. On the other hand if you were to eqiup reds on caldari you could say goodbye eHP. Take a look at all 4 factions while talking about it. I took a look at all 4 factions for years, including spreadsheets that were discussed. The fact is, depending on your suits, bonuses, and slot layout, certain suits made more sacrifices than others. And balance should be considered at ALL levels, not merely Proto. CPU/PG was often a constraining factor in these balance considerations, and some suits had more constraints than others. Which is why I believe reducing the resources will make balancing easier within roles, between factions, and among tiers. Hopefully when we see Nova, we won't see a game where fittings and experience level create boundaries that can't be overcome even when a lesser equipped/SP player has significantly greater ability. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 19208	Posted - 2017.05.21 17:29:00 - [143] - Quote Why do all races have to have access to the same builds? And whats wrong with gear advantage if matchmaking is working properly? Also in DUST MLT could still smoke proto if skill allowed so honestly I dont quite see the point of that one. Rage flavored bitter berry
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2766	Posted - 2017.05.21 17:31:00 - [144] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I took a look at all 4 factions for years, including spreadsheets that were discussed. The fact is, depending on your suits, bonuses, and slot layout, certain suits made more sacrifices than others. And balance should be considered at ALL levels, not merely Proto. CPU/PG was often a constraining factor in these balance considerations, and some suits had more constraints than others. Which is why I believe reducing the resources will make balancing easier within roles, between factions, and among tiers. Hopefully when we see Nova, we won't see a game where fittings and experience level create boundaries that can't be overcome even when a lesser equipped/SP player has significantly greater ability. I have to agree on the latter part. Player with greater SP pool shouldn't just be mathematically stronger. The more SP the more roles you can fill, the more diverse you can be. Instead of making it strictly "you gain power" I'm more keen towards "you get more possibilites". That's for infantry, if we ever see vehicles I wouldn't want to see noobs behind the wheel . I was talking about proto because proto was/is end game. If we speak about any game let's speak about end game becasue that's where the playerbase is. For me PG/CPU system is a way to allow you to eqiup anything you want but you have to count on said sacrifices. I'm looking forward to what they think out of the fitting system. The idea of capacitor sounds promising. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1483	Posted - 2017.05.21 18:03:00 - [145] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: I took a look at all 4 factions for years, including spreadsheets that were discussed. The fact is, depending on your suits, bonuses, and slot layout, certain suits made more sacrifices than others. And balance should be considered at ALL levels, not merely Proto. CPU/PG was often a constraining factor in these balance considerations, and some suits had more constraints than others. Which is why I believe reducing the resources will make balancing easier within roles, between factions, and among tiers. Hopefully when we see Nova, we won't see a game where fittings and experience level create boundaries that can't be overcome even when a lesser equipped/SP player has significantly greater ability. I have to agree on the latter part. Player with greater SP pool shouldn't just be mathematically stronger. The more SP the more roles you can fill, the more diverse you can be. Instead of making it strictly "you gain power" I'm more keen towards "you get more possibilites". That's for infantry, if we ever see vehicles I wouldn't want to see noobs behind the wheel . I was talking about proto because proto was/is end game. If we speak about any game let's speak about end game becasue that's where the playerbase is. For me PG/CPU system is a way to allow you to eqiup anything you want but you have to count on said sacrifices. I'm looking forward to what they think out of the fitting system. The idea of capacitor sounds promising. We shouldn't have basic or advanced. Or the cpu/pg. if a player unlocks an item, then let them fit it. I'd rather see modules and variants with different benefits and side effects. Shield hp with small increase in shield delay or shield hp with larger hp increase but lowers armor amount a bit. Stuff like that can create just as deep and complex a system, while making fits truly suited to your Playstyle but still be equal in terms of power as what a new player is capable of. Just because you have more sp shouldn't mean you can be stronger
DUST Fiend 19208	Posted - 2017.05.21 19:42:00 - [146] - Quote Its kinda sad seeing people even be against the SP system which didnt let you gain as much of a mathematical advantage over time as it just gave you the flexibility of multiple fits across multiple suits. Sp could only fill any one role so much and a dedicated player didnt have to take too long to flesh out a single role. We are definitely pulling further from the persistent existence in EVE and much closer to a traditional lobby shooter with nothing that really defines it. I mean...class unlocks? Really? :/ Rage flavored bitter berry
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2767	Posted - 2017.05.21 20:13:00 - [147] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Its kinda sad seeing people even be against the SP system which didnt let you gain as much of a mathematical advantage over time as it just gave you the flexibility of multiple fits across multiple suits. Sp could only fill any one role so much and a dedicated player didnt have to take too long to flesh out a single role. We are definitely pulling further from the persistent existence in EVE and much closer to a traditional lobby shooter with nothing that really defines it. I mean...class unlocks? Really? :/ We are not against the SP system. But locking skills in there that give you flat bonuses to your damage and whatnot is not needed at all. Being good is one thing, but having such things can turn the tables. If you give me better gear I will shat on equally skilled player with worse gear. The less difference the better. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1483	Posted - 2017.05.21 20:27:00 - [148] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Its kinda sad seeing people even be against the SP system which didnt let you gain as much of a mathematical advantage over time as it just gave you the flexibility of multiple fits across multiple suits. Sp could only fill any one role so much and a dedicated player didnt have to take too long to flesh out a single role. We are definitely pulling further from the persistent existence in EVE and much closer to a traditional lobby shooter with nothing that really defines it. I mean...class unlocks? Really? :/ When CCP said they were looking into class progression system for Nova, what do you think that means? SP isn't the problem, how it's implemented is. SP gained over time like in Eve Online means that the strength of a character is more directly tied to how old the character is. A character created 10 years ago will always be stronger than any character created today and there's zero way to close that gap. Dust was the same way at first, but then CCP set let gain SP through playing and get bonus SP. Still though, with weekly SP caps, you can only close the gap if veterans stopped playing or you used skill boosters. Who wants to play a game where you can feasibly catch up to players that started playing the game before you? Achievement based class unlocks simply would mean that your progression through the game is entirely up to the player. Lots of ways to handle character progression and they depend on the kind of game you want and your target audience, but saying that dust's SP wasn't biased towards veteran players simply isn't true. It totally was, and people complained about letting new players gain SP at higher rates or allow them to make up SP for days they couldn't play. The strong just wanted to stay strong and prey on the weaker newer players as long as they could, because the players meant they were weak enough to be farmed for ISK.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1892	Posted - 2017.05.21 20:45:00 - [149] - Quote The issue with any boost to people who played longer than others is two-fold, because not only are they getting that bonus from the stats, they also know the game better, which leads to noobs getting bored and leaving, which leads to a low player base and the same issues that plagued Dust. Not to mention they don't know what it's best to spec into in the beginning, which leads to it taking even longer to become competitive. I'd like to ask, other than being able to feel superior simply because you got there first, what up-sides does the sp system have?
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2767	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:05:00 - [150] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: I'd like to ask, other than being able to feel superior simply because you got there first, what up-sides does the sp system have? Bragging rights Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9302	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:07:00 - [151] - Quote If people have not seen it yet, I ask you give this a read: http://biomassed.net/2017/05/20/theory-workshop-project-nova-capacitor-and-module-interaction/ Consider it an alternative take on fitting and how to make PG/CPU a more meaningful set of values and tie it to a central resource. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19208	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:10:00 - [152] - Quote As I said, SP doesnt make you directly better in any one role than another aside from brand new players who have yet to fill out a given role. If we do away with SP for a more CoD style unlock system, does that still npt leave noobs disadvantaged? Does it still not take a chunk of time to get into your role? All Im saying is it seems like theyre pulling further away from EVEs systems without any real benefit for doing so other than "because new" Also let me ask, what do you think CCP will monotize without SP boosters? Something that will actually draw in enough to go F2P , or do you expect this to be a full proce lobby shooter? I played since closed beta and only had around 60 million SP yet I did just fine in most cases, actually once i hit 30 million I was mostly set. It just seems like theyre catering to the impatient and less intelligent in order to maybe hope they buy skins? Just seems like a lot of changes to basic systems just for the sake of change, not for any actual tangible reason. Rage flavored bitter berry
byte modal 1316	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:40:00 - [153] - Quote Holy hell this argument has devolved back to closed beta gripes over sp gains? EvE is unique in earning sp passively, over time. Why is this progression type "special?" Because being special and standing apart makes it special by definition. Dust was only partly special because CCP changed skill progression from passive to active. That created weird issues. To fix that? Give us weapon masters to learn a weapon to then actively improve upon it...I guess? SP gains and gaps have been talked to death ad nauseam. DUST created gaps by SP, sure. But that gap was mostly due to lateral gains rather than the compounding buff that some of you are implying here. THOSE would-be tiered gaps were more obvious because Newbro SP couldn't catch up? No.... Because CCP completely missed the boat in segregating player class. We were ALL dumped into the same match, whether you had the sp, experience, or gear to back it up. Why is SP being argued...again? At least in this thread? Also, this rant isn't to CCP. I don't know WHAT you are doing enough to rant over. Though that lack of that awareness, in and of itself, deserves a dedicated rant ;) kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9302	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:46:00 - [154] - Quote Don't mind DUST Fiend. Just wait till I release the new compilation post with all the new details that have surfaced. I can hear the screeching already. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19209	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:49:00 - [155] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Don't mind DUST Fiend. Just wait till I release the new compilation post with all the new details that have surfaced. I can hear the screeching already. Autistic screeching, thank you kindly Also are we back to any opinion that opposes CCPs logic is screeching? Good to see some things never change Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9302	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:50:00 - [156] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Don't mind DUST Fiend. Just wait till I release the new compilation post with all the new details that have surfaced. I can hear the screeching already. Autistic screeching, thank you kindly Also are we back to any opinion that opposes CCPs logic is screeching? Good to see some things never change Haha no not quite, Rattati just made a particular comment which I think will rub you the wrong way in a very personal way. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19209	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:51:00 - [157] - Quote Rat man doesnt like me much lol but I cant blame him. I welcome the hate if it draws him out of his hole for a few verses. Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9303	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:05:00 - [158] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Rat man doesnt like me much lol but I cant blame him. I welcome the hate if it draws him out of his hole for a few verses. Honest talk, I don't think there is anything wrong with you stating your opinion regardless of what it may be, even if I personally disagree with you. I like to think you and I can at least be civil enough to avoid degrading the validity of each other's opinion, just as long as you don't mind the friendly jest from time too time. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19210	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:08:00 - [159] - Quote At the end of the day I just want the game to be good. Past experiences tell me I cant trust CCP to do it alone so if I have to yell at a wall to voice my opinion then you can just find me over at the GalLag facility hugging an MCC missile while i scream obscenities at it waiting for it to take off. Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9303	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:12:00 - [160] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: At the end of the day I just want the game to be good. Past experiences tell me I cant trust CCP to do it alone so if I have to yell at a wall to voice my opinion then you can just find me over at the GalLag facility hugging an MCC missile while i scream obscenities at it waiting for it to take off. I hear ya, feedback is important. Question, have you had a chance to take a look at the Theory Workshop blog I wrote? I'm curious your thoughts. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1485	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:13:00 - [161] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: As I said, SP doesnt make you directly better in any one role than another aside from brand new players who have yet to fill out a given role. If we do away with SP for a more CoD style unlock system, does that still npt leave noobs disadvantaged? Does it still not take a chunk of time to get into your role? All Im saying is it seems like theyre pulling further away from EVEs systems without any real benefit for doing so other than "because new" Also let me ask, what do you think CCP will monotize without SP boosters? Something that will actually draw in enough to go F2P , or do you expect this to be a full proce lobby shooter? I played since closed beta and only had around 60 million SP yet I did just fine in most cases, actually once i hit 30 million I was mostly set. It just seems like theyre catering to the impatient and less intelligent in order to maybe hope they buy skins? Just seems like a lot of changes to basic systems just for the sake of change, not for any actual tangible reason. SP also allowed for a greater sense of depth and choice, letting you save up for whatever you want whenever you want, or to just spend ignorantly. It punished you for being dumb. This is good, respecs were welcome but ultimately unnecessary and a descent cash sink for whales. An unlock will mean most people will unlock everything much faster, or unlocks will take so long theyll just **** people off. This didnt turn into a WoT or anything....but as far as unlocks go...couldnt you unlock multiple things at the same time by using them? On top of removing tiers this would go a very long way towards removing a sense of depth, commitment and accomplishment that comes with the SP system. Lets not even consoder the lore that you can literally inject knowledge into your brain, so having to use something to unlock more just makes no sense lore wise lol Originally, dust 514's skill progression was so slow, that the devs calculated that it would take SEVEN years to unlock everything. that obviously chnaged between skill boosters, bonus SP weekends and event the devs held but still... if youre new and and get killed by a guy running a fit you can't use for 8 months to years later, and youre getting rekt every match, why stay knowing what youre up against? and there's no sense in accomplishment in playing the same class for months, hording SP, and then completely speccing an entire skill tree. with a class based system, you cant do that. its like in Battlefield, you need to use the actual class you want to progress into or the items you want to use. also progression comes in many forms. Overwatch gives you gold to buy the skins you want. COD makes you use a weapon to earn its attachments. Dust 514 used SP. Same thing and idea under different names. I would prefer to see a progression system tied to achievements. Items unlocked through player actions over time instead of a generic resource spent to unlock things. similar to how specific tasks must be comeplted to unlock a Trophy on Sony PlayStation or an achievement on XBox One. It allows the player to strive toward what they want at whatever speed they choose. Clearly defined tasks to be completed to unlock the items they want. Want to unlock advanced shoguns? get 100 kills with basic shotguns. Want to unlock proto shotguns? get 1000 kills with advanced shotguns.
DUST Fiend 19210	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:16:00 - [162] - Quote If this werent a persistent shooter in the EVE universe i might be on board with an oversimplified fetch quest form of unlocks, it just seems so removed from anything familiar to the IP. Rage flavored bitter berry
DUST Fiend 19210	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:18:00 - [163] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: At the end of the day I just want the game to be good. Past experiences tell me I cant trust CCP to do it alone so if I have to yell at a wall to voice my opinion then you can just find me over at the GalLag facility hugging an MCC missile while i scream obscenities at it waiting for it to take off. I hear ya, feedback is important. Question, have you had a chance to take a look at the Theory Workshop blog I wrote? I'm curious your thoughts. Kinda been going through some **** IRL so I haven't checked much out. I just happened to check this for my daily dose of triggered. My opinion is low on the totem pole for ground based combat anyways. The only thing ive heard so far that feels like a step in the right direction is cap, even if it rightly belongs to pilots first ;) Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9303	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:24:00 - [164] - Quote Well, the reason I ask is because the post is about capacitor and using it as a limiting factor to balance modules/equipment fitting. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19212	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:26:00 - [165] - Quote I'll check it out after work if I 'member. You know I value your service to the community and your feedback, even if I can find no commom ground but that from time to time. Rage flavored bitter berry
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1485	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:32:00 - [166] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: If this werent a persistent shooter in the EVE universe i might be on board with an oversimplified fetch quest form of unlocks, it just seems so removed from anything familiar to the IP. i agree that its a huge departure, but CCP said they wanted Dust 514 orginally to be the gateway drug that hooks people and draws them into the Eve IP. You can't dump all those complexities on newcomers, and if you want to reach the widest target audience then you "dumb it down" and make it simple enough for anyone to get into. Does that mean we cant have a complex game? no, and it doesn't mean we have to department Eve either. It really about execution and presentation. It's been 14 years since Eve came out and the NPE is still not good enough to usher in new players and help them understand the game. We don't need that level of complexity at the beginning of something new. start small, keep it simple, and let it grow and mature. Then get fancy with it. Hopefully by then the playerbase is there and the Dev have enough experience to implement new features without confusing everyone or breaking game balance. For the record though, if CCP said they wanted to make a ground based FPS version of Eve online, we would not be talking about simplifying anything. The overall theme would be "Welcome to Eve, and good luck."
DUST Fiend 19212	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:34:00 - [167] - Quote I dont know. Im just a masochist. Tough love and complexity are big parts of why I became so addicted in the first place. Rage flavored bitter berry
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3234	Posted - 2017.05.23 17:30:00 - [168] - Quote Firstly, nothing wrong with a single resource model in and of itself. The proposal to couple passive/active modules to a dynamic in-match crucial stat(capacitor) is very interesting and worth exploring. In fact, i'd like to see fitting choices affect other in-match dynamic quantities: stamina/regen, tacnet profile/precision etc. This way what we lose in depth from simplifying fitting resources we gain in depth of in-match ramifications of fitting choices - such an approach takes what was two separate pieces of gameplay and adds meaning to them by unifying them around battlefield repercussions. We simultaneously make the NPE more accessible yet keep tradeoffs, meaningful decisions & deep theorycrafting for vets at the highest levels of gameplay. Disclaimer: Please don't take what's written below in a negative context, it's an honest question about preserving meaning in Nova.. Also thought of posting this elsewhere, but since other peeps are bringing up similar concerns, decided to put it here. Got to the end of this thread and had to re-read the thread title to remind myself what it was all about lol But there's a good reason all these other topics are being dragged into a fitting resources thread: Player experience. In Dust we had several interacting systems that made building a dropsuit the cumulative result of balancing multiple factors: scan profile, scan precision, scan range, stamina, mobility, defense, offense, passive vs. active, damage types, engagement ranges, equipment, AI vs. AV, etc. Layered on top of that was a resource allocation game that involved PG, CPU and BW. Layered on top of that was a risk management game that involved ISK, Leaderboard standings, skillpoint gain/allocation and finite special resources(e.g. Officer gear). It was here, where ISK loss = (time played and/or RL$) and the gameplay crossed over to real life that meaning was inserted into a lobby shooter. Dust had several other wellsprings of meaning, but this was the first that a player would encounter. What i've described above was just basic solo gameplay, there was more to fitting decisions than that when other people were involved, tbh, at the highest levels of gameplay a lot more. Encouraging the depth of all this was almost total player freedom in suit, module and equipment choice, with the exception of very few class-based restrictions: a hard restriction on equipment & heavies, a soft restriction on cloaks and scouts. Otherwise it was blue skies for theorycrafting+, in a way that didn't exist in any other online multiplayer shooter in the history of gaming. This freedom was gated by three things: skills, ISK & FW standing. It's fair to claim that the vast majority of players who played Dust had positive things to say about it's fitting system. In the same breath we know that for a significant proportion of new players the fitting system proved obtuse and was an obstacle to engaging with the game - that coupled with the risk of loss soured their experience. The real question is do we have to throw out the baby(risk) with the bathwater(complexity)? Rattati & crew are obviously trying hard to balance these factors. What are the sources of meaning in Rattati's proposed model? At tier 3 there's the guaranteed ISK loss associated with Script/firmware loss, true, but it's totally predictable. Feels more like a merc making an accounting decision than anything else. It seems to me the Nova devs are building their game design around natural human risk aversion, betting on the plausible hope that lower risk = more player engagement and hence a better player experience. i have to agree that higher engagement will give us better matches, but wonder if we will pay with a loss of meaning. Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. Is fear of loss of meaning rational? Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2769	Posted - 2017.05.23 19:16:00 - [169] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. There was just one problem with this in Dust. Two, to be exact. 1. BPO = easy money 2. PC farm = even easier money Once you got a certain amount of ISK it was very hard to go bankrupt, even if you spent more than you win each battle for months. Sitting on piles of ISK made you forget what risk-reward is. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1486	Posted - 2017.05.23 23:28:00 - [170] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. There was just one problem with this in Dust. Two, to be exact. 1. BPO = easy money 2. PC farm = even easier money Once you got a certain amount of ISK it was very hard to go bankrupt, even if you spent more than you win each battle for months. Sitting on piles of ISK made you forget what risk-reward is. Thats true for common gear but for rare gear it stung. Even if you could afford to replace it, getting killed in officer gear was embarrassing as hell Can we even cause players to lose anything? is there a way for players to make other players lose anything at all? Even if players could run the best gear all day in Dust, if they were getting stomped while wearing their best gear, they would sometimes downgrade their gear. it felt like admitting of defeat when they did and it felt good because you knew you beat them.

One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17183	Posted - 2017.05.24 00:11:00 - [171] - Quote Many excellent points Matari, and Mejt. I would just say that RE the Cubs scenario, I am thinking that firstly, if the end game in Nova is sufficient (which should be a goal), there should be less incentive to see groups like that come into pubs looking kill time stomping. Secondly, I think it is probably good, since newer players can play their better stuff without worried about, to use poker terms, having a short stack trying to play against a large stack. Insurance is a good way for those financial imbalances like Mejt was talking about to be moot points, unlike they were in Dust, particularly in Pub matches where the ISK poor were mostly relegated to. The biggest problem will arise if the end game is not compelling enough to want to play that instead of Pubs. Dust of course had the middle ground of FW, which for a long time (pre LP), was my fav mode. It was an intermediary level between PC and Pubs. Dust ran into problems when PC became boring/unplayable, and FW was non existant. Thus Pubs became nearly the sole source of game play. If the ONLY game modes that ended up being played in Nova were the 100% insurance game modes, then I can see where the scenario Matari discussed becomes a real concern. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1486	Posted - 2017.05.24 01:47:00 - [172] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. Is fear of loss of meaning rational? I worry about it too.
Terry Webber WarRavens Auxiliaries 987	Posted - 2017.05.29 00:33:00 - [173] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Terry Webber wrote: Personally, I'm kind of torn on the subject. There are a lot of advantages in each design. Could you list what you like and dislike about both? I'm just used to the old CPU/PG method. But I like the simplicity of the new method. Inertial Booster Module Vehicle Installation
DUST Fiend 19245	Posted - 2017.05.29 03:03:00 - [174] - Quote You could still keep tiers and ISK costs/ payouts AND eliminate noob stomping (or curb it, cant balance for skill and teamwork) by simply fixing PC and putting tier restrictions on pubs so you couldnt use proto gear in them, or at least in its own game mode. All this remaking the wheel business just leaves me scratching my head. Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17198	Posted - 2017.05.29 03:39:00 - [175] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: You could still keep tiers and ISK costs/ payouts AND eliminate noob stomping (or curb it, cant balance for skill and teamwork) by simply fixing PC and putting tier restrictions on pubs so you couldnt use proto gear in them, or at least in its own game mode. All this remaking the wheel business just leaves me scratching my head. It was a really sh*tty wheel. It couldn't be saved. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 19245	Posted - 2017.05.29 04:48:00 - [176] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: You could still keep tiers and ISK costs/ payouts AND eliminate noob stomping (or curb it, cant balance for skill and teamwork) by simply fixing PC and putting tier restrictions on pubs so you couldnt use proto gear in them, or at least in its own game mode. All this remaking the wheel business just leaves me scratching my head. It was a really shtty wheel. It couldn't be saved. I guess we just see it different It just had * code and low funding with a small team. The latter two don't seem to have changed. Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514**
The Paige Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2017.05.29 06:51:00 - [177] - Quote Wooo I finally got access to my account again!!!! Combine away I say! It sounds great for new players but still deeper than most FPS games. It will make it easier to balance and will still be usable to limit suit fits.
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Imperium Eden 493	Posted - 2017.05.29 22:52:00 - [178] - Quote TLDR: Personal preference: No, keep them and add to them, but... at this point, whatever works and helps going forward, pretty sure we'll never know what data they have for the changes planned. I can't really remember anyone complaining about the fitting system being hard, I remember complaints about lack of information or lack of ways to test your stuff out, but nothing about things being too complicated to grasp. The fitting system was a lot of fun for me and the target of a lot of hours which I can't say were wasted or a drag, but part of the game experience. I don't have data, but I don't think NPE had troubles with the fitting system, the actual game performance did a lot more damage than that ever did IMO. I'm in the camp of 'we should be adding things, not removing', fittings were one of the game strengths, it wasn't too complicated, at least not for the players we think we would want to have. Yes NOVA is not DUST514, but I think it's more likely the new players that will test it will be EvE players now that it's going for PC, I figure they like their PG/CPU, I do. I was under the impression that one of the objectives was to make the game more tied to EvE no? not necessarily having the games linked (unfortunately) but have the same lore, look and feel. I played a little EvE the other day, THAT's complex, not PG/CPU. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
DUST Fiend 19248	Posted - 2017.05.29 23:24:00 - [179] - Quote I felt like PC was CCPs chance to go big and fix / improve upon the flaws of the base game Apparently throwing it all away and playing it safe is the preferred approach :/ Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 16:41:00 - [180] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Apparently throwing it all away and playing it safe is the preferred approach :/ Many companies are playing it safe currently as others are being gobbled up or fade away. It's not like CCP has a huge game library to keep them afloat if something does go awry with Nova. BTW, if you are going to be annoyed or frustrated by anyone, be frustrated or annoyed by the majority of players out there that have to basically have half the game played for them to find it enjoyable. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".

Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2792	Posted - 2017.05.31 16:57:00 - [181] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Apparently throwing it all away and playing it safe is the preferred approach :/ Many companies are playing it safe currently as others are being gobbled up or fade away. It's not like CCP has a huge game library to keep them afloat if something does go awry with Nova. CCP mainly just has EVE along with the few playing VR. BTW, if you are going to be annoyed or frustrated by anyone, be frustrated or annoyed by the majority of players out there that have to basically have half the game played for them to find it enjoyable. No need to play it safe as long as you excel at promoting From my point of view companies who develop a ** game that is followed by DLCs, season passes, etc., or is simply shown as full of something while being really empty inside, generate the most proft. All thanks to hype and promoting. Being original nowadays is risky. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting**
DUST Fiend 19259	Posted - 2017.06.01 13:15:00 - [182] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: BTW, if you are going to be annoyed or frustrated by anyone, be frustrated or annoyed by the majority of players out there that have to basically have half the game played for them to find it enjoyable. So Nova's target audience :/ Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Moorian Flav 665	Posted - 2017.06.01 14:59:00 - [183] - Quote Pokey won me over. It does make sense that CPU/PG be made into 1 unit as there will no longer be 4 faction variants per class. With only 1 Scout, 1 Logi, 1 Assault, and 1 Sentinel in Nova, there is no need for such a division any longer. That being said... I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
byte modal 1335	Posted - 2017.06.01 15:34:00 - [184] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Pokey won me over. It does make sense that CPU/PG be made into 1 unit as there will no longer be 4 faction variants per class. With only 1 Scout, 1 Logi, 1 Assault, and 1 Sentinel in Nova, there is no need for such a division any longer. That being said... Fair. I think the arguments for justification (after the fact) are reasonable. My issue is the original decision to begin with in taking a radical departure from the concept. *I am building a square, because of corners.* Hm. That is a great idea! You should round off the corners to make a circle! That way, you have a circle which is an improvement upon your box! But I want a box? You are building a circle. Isn't it great!? With rounded corners you can roll a circle! *Hm. That is reasonable, I mean to roll a circle. That would justify having a circle, if I wanted a circle. But I liked the box because of corners. Rolling* is of no interest?** But it rolls! Here, let me show you as I've already done it for you! ... I'm only have a go at this because there's nothing else to do with it all ;) Who else am I gonna gripe to? my ex? My dog's ghost? Nah. This is the only place I can vent this specific frustration because I know there are a few holdouts that can relate. So please excuse my snarky comments from time to time. It's not just venting. I still need to keep my smart-assary in shape. I might as well exercise that here ;) <3 kitten bacon taco (nom)
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3253	Posted - 2017.06.03 03:11:00 - [185] - Quote byte modal wrote: Moorian Flav wrote: Pokey won me over. It does make sense that CPU/PG be made into 1 unit as there will no longer be 4 faction variants per class. With only 1 Scout, 1 Logi, 1 Assault, and 1 Sentinel in Nova, there is no need for such a division any longer. That being said... Fair. I think the arguments for justification (after the fact) are reasonable. My issue is the original decision to begin with in taking a radical departure from the concept. *I am building a square, because of corners.* Hm. That is a great idea! You should round off the corners to make a circle! That way, you have a circle which is an improvement upon your box! But I want a box? You are building a circle. Isn't it great!? With rounded corners you can roll a circle! *Hm. That is reasonable, I mean to roll a circle. That would justify having a circle, if I wanted a circle. But I liked the box because of corners. Rolling* is of no interest?** But it rolls! Here, let me show you as I've already done it for you! ... I'm only have a go at this because there's nothing else to do with it all ;) Who else am I gonna gripe to? my ex? My dog's ghost? Nah. This is the only place I can vent this specific frustration because I know there are a few holdouts that can relate. So please excuse my snarky comments from time to time. It's not just venting. I still need to keep my smart-assary in shape. I might as well exercise that here ;) <3 I share your frustration. Welcome to New EAden. Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
byte modal 1342	Posted - 2017.06.03 03:18:00 - [186] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: byte modal wrote: Moorian Flav wrote: Pokey won me over. It does make sense that CPU/PG be made into 1 unit as there will no longer be 4 faction variants per class. With only 1 Scout, 1 Logi, 1 Assault, and 1 Sentinel in Nova, there is no need for such a division any longer. That being said... Fair. I think the arguments for justification (after the fact) are reasonable. My issue is the original decision to begin with in taking a radical departure from the concept. *I am building a square, because of corners.* Hm. That is a great idea! You should round off the corners to make a circle! That way, you have a circle which is an improvement upon your box! But I want a box? You are building a circle. Isn't it great!? With rounded corners you can roll a circle! *Hm. That is reasonable, I mean to roll a circle. That would justify having a circle, if I wanted a circle. But I liked the box because of corners. Rolling* is of no interest?** But it rolls! Here, let me show you as I've already done it for you! ... I'm only have a go at this because there's nothing else to do with it all ;) Who else am I gonna gripe to? my ex? My dog's ghost? Nah. This is the only place I can vent this specific frustration because I know there are a few holdouts that can relate. So please excuse my snarky comments from time to time. It's not just venting. I still need to keep my smart-assary in shape. I might as well exercise that here ;) <3 I share your frustration. Welcome to New EAden. Been here a while br.... Wait. rereads Oh. Ha! almost missed it ;) kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9384	Posted - 2017.06.03 03:19:00 - [187] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Pokey won me over. It does make sense that CPU/PG be made into 1 unit as there will no longer be 4 faction variants per class. With only 1 Scout, 1 Logi, 1 Assault, and 1 Sentinel in Nova, there is no need for such a division any longer. That being said... Wait what? I never said I supported the idea, I was trying to start a discussion up so people could give their opinions. In fact I said later in the thread that I didn't want fitting limits removed. If you want my opinion how things should be done, look at my Theory Workshop about Fitting and Capacitor Project\|Nova - What We Know So Far
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1501	Posted - 2017.06.03 12:02:00 - [188] - Quote Deleted


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