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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.18 03:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm all for CPU/PG. Single resource just doesn't speak to me. It made fitting all the more interesting. Calling it a complex system for new players strucks me as odd. Are we assuming that most players are under the age of 10 or are they simply unable to understand 2 variables?
There is one more thing. Say we have a single resource for fitting, does that mean that all suits will have the same amount? Kincats used to take a lot of PG. This meant that Caldari scout had a really hard time fitting them. On the other hand you could fit him with quite some eHP. It was OK because Caldari are not about speed right? So if we have a single resource will we be able to just do what we want with each suit?
What I mean by this is that CPU/PG made it so not every faction suit could fit the same stuff as other faction's suit. You could but at a bigger cost. It was hard to make Caldari faster than Gallente while maintaing other stats due to lack of PG.
PG/CPU - fit what you can (the point of factions) Single Resource - fit what you want
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.18 23:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Business is business, but if it means stripping something of its unique nature it will suck It doesn't have to be a clone of Dust, but if too much is changed in the favor of simplification (so it's like other games) what will be potentialy left is a shell with few EVE themes.
I want Nova to success, don't get me wrong. But I want for it to success for its unique mechanics. Min maxing your fits, using vehicles to secure spawn points, being able to make anything out of any suit, etc.
P.S. How many times have it happend that you were creating a brand new fit or modyfing your existing one during a fight? I remember that I did quite a few times, to adjust to the situation. This game made me think. Can't think of any other fps that requires from me any form of thinking other than "I need to go to point A and shoot this guy".
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.19 17:33:00 -
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Joseph Ridgeson wrote:It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.
But isn't this the point tho :) As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them. If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar. Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.20 16:23:00 -
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Derpty Derp wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits. But isn't this the point tho :) As Caldari prefers shields their suits have a better foundation to fit them. If you wanted to build shields you would go for Caldari and/or Minmatar. Having not only high/low slots but both PG/CPU allows to help these suits maintain their purpose. But you can easily emulate this by giving Caldari suits a boost to shield mod effectiveness, which is a lot easier than trying to balance the PG-CPU of every suit and mods to make sure no one else can fit enough shield mods without screwing up the other mods they can fit.
As long as they are able to create something more than just a single dimensional fitting system I will support them on that. Since I've experienced the old system I know it worked and it would work again.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.20 21:28:00 -
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One Eyed King wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things.
The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y.
In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 11:07:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:One Eyed King wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. PG And CPU are indeed known well by EVE and Dust players...but also bear in mind that the target audience is not simply current CCP fans
By well known I meant that people who work for CCP know how to work with it. So it would be easier (my guess) to work around.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 11:14:00 -
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DeathwindRising wrote:Mejt0 wrote:One Eyed King wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished. A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs. Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing.
I don't recall it being a big issue. Scouts who stacked hp were cannon food for every assault out there. And this has nothing to do with PG/CPU as it's a mod's problem.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 15:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote: You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse
Again, this has nothing to do with PG/CPU but with how the mods and suits worked Hit detection was a myth as people had no problems shooting down my cal scout and I was in the meta day one
It wasn't about their ease of fitting shields but how much they gained duing so + at the time you didn't need any ewar mods and bonuses were recompensating that. Later after the changes Cal scout was useless.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 16:15:00 -
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One Eyed King wrote: The fact that it didn't have to do directly with CPU/PG is exactly why I don't buy that the two resources are needed for creating balance.
Looking at Min and Gal Scouts, it was easier for the Gal Scouts to take advantage of their Dampening bonuses without much fitting sacrifice, while Kin Cats were so expensive that taking advantage of Minja speed was much more of a sacrifice (and Gal Scouts could still get within .1 or .01 m/s of top Minja speed).
All of this is to say that CPU/PG's existence was as much a hindrance to balance and fitting optimization as it was a strategic consideration.
It was equal. Having maxed skills you could go full proto with any suit by the end. It was fairly easy for minja to go with reds while haivng other top tier mods/guns/eq. And minja's advantage was mainly knives, speed was just an addon.
On the other hand if you were to eqiup reds on caldari you could say goodbye eHP. Take a look at all 4 factions while talking about it.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 17:31:00 -
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One Eyed King wrote: I took a look at all 4 factions for years, including spreadsheets that were discussed. The fact is, depending on your suits, bonuses, and slot layout, certain suits made more sacrifices than others. And balance should be considered at ALL levels, not merely Proto.
CPU/PG was often a constraining factor in these balance considerations, and some suits had more constraints than others. Which is why I believe reducing the resources will make balancing easier within roles, between factions, and among tiers. Hopefully when we see Nova, we won't see a game where fittings and experience level create boundaries that can't be overcome even when a lesser equipped/SP player has significantly greater ability.
I have to agree on the latter part. Player with greater SP pool shouldn't just be mathematically stronger. The more SP the more roles you can fill, the more diverse you can be. Instead of making it strictly "you gain power" I'm more keen towards "you get more possibilites". That's for infantry, if we ever see vehicles I wouldn't want to see noobs behind the wheel .
I was talking about proto because proto was/is end game. If we speak about any game let's speak about end game becasue that's where the playerbase is. For me PG/CPU system is a way to allow you to eqiup anything you want but you have to count on said sacrifices. I'm looking forward to what they think out of the fitting system. The idea of capacitor sounds promising.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 20:13:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:Its kinda sad seeing people even be against the SP system which didnt let you gain as much of a mathematical advantage over time as it just gave you the flexibility of multiple fits across multiple suits.
Sp could only fill any one role so much and a dedicated player didnt have to take too long to flesh out a single role. We are definitely pulling further from the persistent existence in EVE and much closer to a traditional lobby shooter with nothing that really defines it.
I mean...class unlocks? Really? :/
We are not against the SP system. But locking skills in there that give you flat bonuses to your damage and whatnot is not needed at all. Being good is one thing, but having such things can turn the tables.
If you give me better gear I will shat on equally skilled player with worse gear. The less difference the better.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.21 21:05:00 -
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Derpty Derp wrote: I'd like to ask, other than being able to feel superior simply because you got there first, what up-sides does the sp system have?
Bragging rights
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.23 19:16:00 -
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Vrain Matari wrote: Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'.
There was just one problem with this in Dust. Two, to be exact.
1. BPO = easy money 2. PC farm = even easier money
Once you got a certain amount of ISK it was very hard to go bankrupt, even if you spent more than you win each battle for months. Sitting on piles of ISK made you forget what risk-reward is.
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Mejt0
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:57:00 -
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Moorian Flav wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Apparently throwing it all away and playing it safe is the preferred approach :/ Many companies are playing it safe currently as others are being gobbled up or fade away. It's not like CCP has a huge game library to keep them afloat if something does go awry with Nova. CCP mainly just has EVE along with the few playing VR. BTW, if you are going to be annoyed or frustrated by anyone, be frustrated or annoyed by the majority of players out there that have to basically have half the game played for them to find it enjoyable.
No need to play it safe as long as you excel at promoting From my point of view companies who develop a **** game that is followed by DLCs, season passes, etc., or is simply shown as full of something while being really empty inside, generate the most proft. All thanks to hype and promoting.
Being original nowadays is risky.
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