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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9256
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Posted - 2017.05.15 19:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
If you haven't read the article yet (http://biomassed.net/2017/05/12/project-nova-ongoing-updates/) one of the considerations of the design team for Nova is to possibly combine PG and CPU into a single fitting resource. So instead of balancing two pools that your modules and whatnot consume, it would just be a single pool that modules and weapons draw from.
I feel this is actually a pretty important discussion to have and I think people should really be vocal about their feedback regarding this potential change.
What do you think? Will combining these resources help to simplify things? Or will it take away a lot of the depth that Dust and EVEs systems offered?
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Terry Webber
WarRavens Auxiliaries
986
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Posted - 2017.05.15 19:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Personally, I'm kind of torn on the subject. There are a lot of advantages in each design.
Inertial Booster Module
Vehicle Installation
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9256
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Posted - 2017.05.15 19:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Terry Webber wrote:Personally, I'm kind of torn on the subject. There are a lot of advantages in each design.
Could you list what you like and dislike about both?
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17144
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Posted - 2017.05.15 19:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think it will simplify balance and risk/reward considerations. Kincats were hella expensive PG wise for what they brought, while armor was relatively cheap.
Side arms, while taking small amounts of cpu, seemingly did not take small amounts of PG. At least that is what it felt like to me and what I remember of trying to make fits.
Granted I was also fitting low level suits, which had limited slots and resources.
Overall, I just think it will create a more level playing field, it will reduce the number of variables to have to balance around, and it will give players more flexibility to experiment with suits, while making sure there is still sacrifices and choices to be made between eq, weapons, and mods.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
1437
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Posted - 2017.05.15 21:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's not something that I am in favor of honestly. I do see that it would help simplify things to just make like a mana pool like any other MMO but it does not help with overall diversity. What made Dust so good was the very extensive skill progression you had to take to actually fit your suits to the max. A Proto player could be stomped on because he or she didn't take the time to skill those cores properly. I say keep the same skills that made Dust like eve.
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
10844
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Posted - 2017.05.15 21:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
It'll certainly hurt racial diversify, that's for sure. As a tradeoff, it'll be easier to balance between classes, maybe. Reason for this having all of one class have different slot layouts, but all the same Power Core (PC) meter.
For argument's sake, let's compare Caldari and Gallente Assaults. Caldari favor shields, tanking, and ECM (jamming) for EWAR. The Gallente favor Repair, light armor tanking, and RSD (dampening-ish). Both very different, right? Now, let's give the Calass a 4/2 and Galass 2/4, but both have the same PC (for balancing). Because they have the same limitations, both should be able to do what the other one could. Dual tanking is one of these problems, but because they have different slots, the degrees at which one can do the other varies.
If they keep the CPU/PG mechanic, you can encourage players to play to their race's strengths. Give Caldari a high CPU count and low-mid PG count, while the Gallente has mid on both. Give Shield Extenders a high CPU cost with low PG costs, and give Armor Repair low-mid costs on both CPU/PG, while giving Armor Plates low CPU, but high PG.
To balance out the Matari/Amarr, just give the Minnies 3/3 with medium on both, and Amarr 1/5 with low CPU/high PG. this way the Matari can still dual tank as in eve, and the Amarr become the armor tankers like in Eve.
Anywho, you get the point: it allows for a more strategic way of making builds around these limitations. Don't fix it if it ain't broken.
Also, an idea I had some time ago was removing CPU/PG requirements from weapons to simplify the build making while lowering the amounts of CPU/PG of the suits to compensate, I'll leave that for another thread.
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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byte modal
1301
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Posted - 2017.05.15 21:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
That's a double-edged sword. Yeah, it would simplify things (development, especially), but I would rather not consolidate the two. If this is a real consideration then I think it must be measured relative to other factors that we just don't have awareness of. How are skill points going to be handled? What about weaponry, dropsuit, and module hierarchies? Are these elements being flattened out in some way too? Have they decided on tier structures already?
For me, this is all like a sliding scale. If I lose something here, I would prefer to gain something elsewhere; but if all of these elements are simplified across the board, then what will be left? PG/CPU as used in both EvE and DUST really widens the possibility of what gear could be matched together. Having two fitting caps really created (or at least created the perception of) a meta-game for the min/maxer types and an evolving goal when planning skills. That's not to say you would be without that goal if PG and CPU were consolidated, but it seems like it would be a few layers short?
Then again, a new player wouldn't have anything to compare it against unless that player comes from EvE and/or DUST. Who is the target audience then? Hell, everything might be just fine. It just goes back to how other parts of the game are handled relative to these PG/CPU changes. It is hard to get a sense of scope as to how all these parts may affect each other without knowing (or at least having some perspective) on the other moving parts. We can speculate I guess.... as we've always done....
Fantasy Dust League v1.0!!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9257
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Posted - 2017.05.15 22:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
In regards to complexity...
One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust.
So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second.
So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time.
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byte modal
1302
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Posted - 2017.05.15 23:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests.
Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine.
Is the idea of capacitor still floating around?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9258
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Posted - 2017.05.15 23:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
byte modal wrote:On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests.
Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine.
Is the idea of capacitor still floating around?
Capacitor is confirmed to be a thing but that's outside this discussion so let's not get too tangential.
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byte modal
1302
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Posted - 2017.05.15 23:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:byte modal wrote:On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests.
Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine.
Is the idea of capacitor still floating around? Capacitor is confirmed to be a thing but that's outside this discussion so let's not get too tangential.
Fair enough. Previous observations still stand.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17145
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Posted - 2017.05.16 00:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:In regards to complexity...
One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust.
So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second.
So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time. Perhaps I don't know enough about the system myself. Why do we need a CPU/PG system?
Is it also possible that the system was not innately flawed, but that it was simply poorly executed?
I don't think that I could be confident in any points I make if there is something fundamental I am missing.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
13749
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Posted - 2017.05.16 00:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
LOL KILLZ wrote:It's not something that I am in favor of honestly. I do see that it would help simplify things to just make like a mana pool like any other MMO but it does not help with overall diversity. What made Dust so good was the very extensive skill progression you had to take to actually fit your suits to the max. A Proto player could be stomped on because he or she didn't take the time to skill those cores properly. I say keep the same skills that made Dust like eve.
I can see you point and it's a very valid one. But I want to point out that Dust 514 (despite the diversity that it had) was not as diverse from the start and actually grew in diversity over time when it comes to the possible fitting combinations you can come up with. Nova Knives were not initially introduced as a separate weapon to fit and unfit as it was introduced as a standard melee attack that literally every suit came stock with. I don't think myofibril stimulants were included at launch either but I could be wrong.
Even if all of the diversity was there, this presented a major problem for CCP Games in regards to fitting balance. It took Eve Online 14 years to improve on the fitting balance and effects of each module and they are STILL working on it to this very day. Dust 514 obviously did not have that kind of time available to do the same considering the myriad of factors CCP had to deal with which is never a small feat.
Combining PG and CPU into one Power Unit/Core can potentially cut down the time and effort it takes to balance weapons and fittings by at least 50% if my guess is not wrong.
The idea of the Power Core is actually an old idea. In fact, I covered it in as much detail as I possibly could in one of my old lectures from yesteryear.
https://youtu.be/_j8aqIW6lYI
I like to thank Duncan for recording this lecture for me on his spare time. Please note that there was this one guy in the video who kept taking over the lecture at that time which prevented me from successfully conveying the point I was trying to bring up. Since then I made it a habit to always have everyone participating in my lectures to hold on to their questions until AFTER the lecture because 90% of the time their questions would have already been answered if I was given the time to completely explain the topic at hand.
So the next time Nova comes around and player-run corporations are re-established in that game, you can bet your ass I will continue to enforce that rule.
Anyways, Power Cores would help make dropsuits practically free by themselves but with the total cost moved over to the core.
For example:
Imagine everyone had a car that was free. You can pick whatever make and model you liked and the car is yours. But you only get it without the engine. You have to buy the engine and the cost of that engine varied based on the performance it brings. If you crash, you can still get another free car but you will have to purchase another engine separately.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
13750
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Posted - 2017.05.16 00:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:In regards to complexity...
One resource pool is very common in games with any sort of loadout system so people will probably grasp that pretty easily. Two fitting resources is really not that much more complicated but it can be confusing if not explained properly, which is why people struggled with it in Dust.
So my question is, was the system itself flawed? Or was the way it was taught to you flawed? I'm kinda feeling it was the second.
So is it worth dropping a lot of fitting depth for the sake of a easier to digest NPE? I don't think so. I'd rather they keep the two resource system and just properly explain it this time.
I would argue that the way it was taught was flawed. Tutorials were lacking, players had to resort to joining learning corporations just to get a basic handle on the whole thing, and it sure as hell did NOT help that Dust 514 never had a firing range where you can practice your fittings at no cost. Speaking of which, players had to go online to browser-based fitting tools to calculate what they were going to get because a lot of players didn't want to risk spending so much ISK on a theoretical fitting that they can't test. Thankfully with Eve Online's new Fitting Simulator we should adopt that for Nova in addition to having a robust training ground and tutorials.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
13750
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Posted - 2017.05.16 00:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
byte modal wrote:On my phone so will try to be quick. You bring up a great point: NPE. More specifically, the efficiency of educating new players---highlighting connections between this or that. I'd go a step farther to point out how awkward the graphic user interface was. Fonts were small. PG and CPU meters were unclear as to wtf they were and how they either affected loadouts or WERE AFFECTED BY loadouts and skill points. I think a combination of lack of education and generally poor interface design is where the weak link rests.
Fix those two elements, and I wonder if the understanding of PG/CPU becomes easier... as would many things, I imagine.
Is the idea of capacitor still floating around?
If the Power Cores ever retained CPU and PG as separate values, then we definitely need to have a robust NPE and a better interface to clearly explain what every value each player is looking at. That is vastly important. Considering that Nova is now being handled by the Dev team in Iceland where they have extensive experience improving the NPE, I am hoping to see a good set of tools available from the get-go.
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deadpool lifetone
D3ATH CARD RUST415
353
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Posted - 2017.05.16 07:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
If im not mistaking, someone already came up with a 2 in 1 module core for PG/CPU to help with simplifying the game code . Its actually a brilliant idea & saves up time on game scripting . Rat & company enjoyed that idea when presented several moons ago lol . From what I've noticed in the several Nova vids, looks like they implemented a way more efficient core system . Here's to projectoNOVA =ƒì¦=ƒì+=ƒì¦=ƒì+=ƒì+=ƒì¦=ƒì¦=ƒì+=ƒì+
( F U!!!! ) * ( Why Dead? )
,
(n+Æn+Çn+¢´)GÇón++pâçGòÉS+ÇX - - - - n++(º Gûí º l|l)/
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TooMany Names AlreadyTaken
Going for the gold
4439
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Posted - 2017.05.16 07:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
It'll make things simpler for new players.
I don't like that, I like it when things in games are complicated, I can figure them out quickly and then explain it to the newbs.
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1237
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Posted - 2017.05.16 07:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
My biggest issue with it is that they're changing things that weren't broken in Dust and therefore increasing the development time. And I want to play it now!
Changing it to one resource type will lower variety and experimentation but may make the fitting system easier to learn.
I was going to say that it'll be easier for the devs to balance but I'm not convinced, part of the reason myos were repurposed was that Rattati wanted greater module variety, with a single resource pool I think some modules will be better than others in all circumstances
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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Lightning35 Delta514
Federation Marines 62
5317
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Posted - 2017.05.16 11:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yes
CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company
Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP
Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad
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ROMULUS H3X
research lab
1204
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Posted - 2017.05.16 11:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Having them combined into one might allow for more possible loadouts. More is better, right! .......right?
FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS
PLASMA/PISTOL/PUNCH
ALL OF YOU PUNKS GET HUMILIATED AFTER LUNCH!
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
8127
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Posted - 2017.05.16 12:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
I want to first state that I donGÇÖt know everything that is being done, so I donGÇÖt have enough context to say whether it is good or bad as part of a larger plan.
That being said however, balancing two resources in the fitting system was one of the things that gave fittings interest and depth. There is good and bad complexity, and I always felt that balancing CPU and Power Grid was good complexity. It made fittings into more of a mini game. When balanced right it allowed suit doctrines so that the suits that were meant to be armor oriented had more PG to fit armor and shield suits had more CPU to fit shields. But it also allowed trade-offs such as fitting a module that used CPU and generated PG so you could produce nonstandard fits.
My fear is that the give and take of the two resources will be gone, and we will be left with the one dimensional fitting system where you just try to fit as much as you can until you run out. I am concerned that there will be no balancing or trade-offs. No fitting a different sidearm to give you a little more PG to fit that extra armor plate. That was the sort of thing that made creating a fit fun, rather than just a chore.
I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
28002
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Posted - 2017.05.16 13:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate?
This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is
- Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns
- Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only]
- Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive]
- At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU]
- Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted]
What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU.
Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Moorian Flav
648
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Posted - 2017.05.16 13:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Would there be a way for Civilian and even possibly T1 suits use the simplified power core but T2 and T3 suits use PG/CPU? Just a thought. Coming from DUST and EVE, I don' t really like the simplified switch but it's honestly more about how it all comes together in game. Also, I realize CCP is trying to attract more than just those from the DUST/EVE community for Nova so in that respect, I can see why a more simplified power system would seem the way to go.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Draxus Prime
Nos Nothi
5031
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Posted - 2017.05.16 13:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate?
This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is
- Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns
- Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only]
- Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive]
- At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU]
- Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted]
What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it how would an earned equipment system work?
"Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime
Closed Beta Vet
Scout
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
28004
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Posted - 2017.05.16 14:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Would there be a way for Civilian and even possibly T1 suits use the simplified power core but T2 and T3 suits use PG/CPU? Just a thought. Coming from DUST and EVE, I don' t really like the simplified switch but it's honestly more about how it all comes together in game. Also, I realize CCP is trying to attract more than just those from the DUST/EVE community for Nova so in that respect, I can see why a more simplified power system would seem the way to go.
something we absolutely consider
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9261
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Posted - 2017.05.16 14:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rattati,
Will passive modules such as Armor Repairers consume capacitor as they run? Or is capcitor reserved for more active effects such as equipment? (Ie Repair tools)
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
28004
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Posted - 2017.05.16 14:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Draxus Prime wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate?
This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is
- Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns
- Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only]
- Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive]
- At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU]
- Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted]
What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it how would an earned equipment system work?
good question
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
28006
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Posted - 2017.05.16 14:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Rattati,
Will passive modules such as Armor Repairers consume capacitor as they run? Or is capcitor reserved for more active effects such as equipment? (Ie Repair tools)
One way to balance is to reduce Cap when you fit Passive Equipment, less to use in battle for your Actives
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Draxus Prime
Nos Nothi
5031
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Posted - 2017.05.16 14:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Draxus Prime wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Fox Gaden wrote: I do like the fact that we will have something resembling a capacitor (operating like a mana bar in a fantasy game, for those not familiar with the capacitor in EVE.) Maybe there will be a fitting trade off over the resources it requires to fit, versus how much capacitor it will use to activate?
This is something we are heavily looking at, we have a few design pillars that we are working from and the top one of those is
- Balance through Quantity, Capacitor and Cooldowns
- Universal Equipment [vs Class-Only]
- Universal Slots [vs Offensive/Defensive, vs High/Low, vs Assault/Logistics, vs Active/Passive]
- At most one Resource, maybe zero Resource [vs PG/CPU]
- Earned Equipment [vs bought, vs looted]
What this means is we can allow a lot of versatility, and balance through "availability". Power can be increased or decreased by the Cap cost/recharge rate instead of pre-battle configurations of PG/CPU. Can I "use" it vs can I "fit" it how would an earned equipment system work? good question like get x amount of ammo resupplied you would unlock a better nanonhive?
"Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime
Closed Beta Vet
Scout
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
28006
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Posted - 2017.05.16 14:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Draxus Prime wrote: like get x amount of ammo resupplied you would unlock a better nanonhive?
not set in stone, but think battlefield class progression, plus sharing items between classes once they are unlocked. The more classes played, the bigger the inventory.
This is in regards to basic class gear such as repair tool for logis, cloak field for infiltrators etc
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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