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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1479
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Posted - 2017.05.16 21:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
why not do both?
CCP talked about consumables. Why not have cosumables that alter fitting? Allowing vets to tweak their fits, with the limitation of not being able to all the time.
Eve Online has the mechanic in place already with drugs, and implants/rigs to lesser extent.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1479
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Posted - 2017.05.17 00:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I guess I need to know why we had fitting resources in the first place. Because Eve Online had them?
How far can we break away from Eve Online before the game no longer feels like an Eve game?
Do we trash fitting resources completely?
What if we just did loadouts?
Picking a class and suit would dictate what modules and weapons are available to for you to fit. You still can customize the suit, but only with whatever CCP says you can use for modules and weapons.
No need to track fitting costs, because you can fit anything to the suit that CCP allows you to select. Some items may be locked to specific classes, and some may be used on all classes.
Anything deemed too OP by CCP by simply be tuned by preventing certain combinations of modules weapons.
and then we could get rid of pg/cpu completely.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1479
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Posted - 2017.05.18 20:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
If I wanted the Devs to hold my hand and make fitting decisions for me I would go back to playing WOW.
You misunderstand. I'll illustrate for you.
Pick any class of dropsuit. Scout, assault, heavy, whatever.
The modules available to select are determined by the class you picked.
Choose any combination of modules available to the class.
So we can operate under the assumption that all classes be what we considered proto level, and ditch the inferior tiers of those versions. As you skill up or progress, you are able to fit extra modules or stronger variants of modules.
This would be same thing as having to skill into resources skill and weapon fitting skills, except it appears as what most people are used to already in other games.
It's not hand holding depending on execution, but it give ccp control over certain fits. No heavies with cloaking devices because a cloaking device isn't an available module to select. Or a scout with an hmg for example.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1479
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Posted - 2017.05.20 02:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Seeing this makes me happy as it might show that Nova isn't, how should I say this, Legionized?
So pros and cons.
Pros
* As Rattati said, a lot more straightforward. Not having to balance two separate things means it is easier for players and developers.
* It possibly removes a lot less natural imbalance. Shield mods were an absolute monster for CPU which was mostly offset by the fact that Caldari suits were big bags of CPU. However, it means that Shield mods become incredibly difficult to use for other types of racial suits.
* It removes frustration that occurs from having to totally downgrade specific modules and upgrade other ones just because of "I am missing one goddamn CPU but have 34 PG! So because of 1 CPU, I lose 70 HP?!"
Cons:
* While frustration is removed, the joy of gaming the system is missed. Whenever I managed to get a stable PG and CPU rating for my tanks and get the exact kind of power I wanted, I felt over the moon. I conquered the system and the brainpower I spent on figuring out the best load outs gave me results. (This is kind of like the 'ownership' that I think was central to DUST; this wasn't just a Caldari Assault suit or a Madrugar. It was MY Caldari Assault)
* It might be a slippery-slope of removing options. "Well, if no one is using the Caldari Assault and the only Logistics used is the Minmatar one, why not just make one class?"
* Equipping suits may very well become more of a 'problem' rather than a 'choice.' It becomes so much easier to say "this is simply better than that" rather than "well, the option is between a big apple or a small orange."
* Any suit that has more 'fitting' than the other will overshadow the others in that same role.
My thoughts:
EVE is a complex game and that level of complexity should in no way shape or form be in any game that is trying to be more casual. This is one of the reasons why I loved DUST's principals. CCP is only known for one game and that game is, for lack of a better term, a gigantic megabitch of complexity. DUST, being a far faster game and being more about moment to moment stuff, was better off not having megabitch problems. However, the complexity that existed did make for a unique game. I think that scaling things back to be more approachable is a good idea. However, I am wary to think of just going that streamlined.
The fitting system is probably the greatest success of DUST. Forget about the first of "we are a console game 'tied' to an MMO computer game!" that got all pomp. The notion of being able to greatly change suits was really cool. I remember making Sentinel suits with dampeners because I saw that I was able to reduce my profile to within medium for medium suits and close range for other sentinels. I was able to actually flank people and catch them off guard, even if the suit was impressively weaker. It was funny to have that. It needed the proper High and Low slots; just saying "okay, these are defensive and these offensive" removes that coolness.
Overall, I think it might be a better idea to stick this idea with vehicles rather than suits assuming they are in the game. Vehicles should have very specific roles that make them useful in their role. Dropsuits, being most of the game, should still allow for some of that greater complexity. But, oddly, I am in less favor of "Defensive and Offensive" module slots rather than combining fitting into a single simple number. The fitting system is THE thing that made DUST unique, the ability to truly make the suit you are walking around in YOUR suit. Limiting that, I feel, is a bad idea. I can see the reasoning behind making CPU/PG into "Power" but High and low Slots that have multiple functionalities and choices into "Defensive is dampening, HP, or run faster" and "Offensive is damage and precision/range mods for radar" seems like a very poor decision to me.
Still, it is an interesting thought. And if nothing else, I am truly happy that Nova is being looked at as "how can we make this more approachable?" rather than "so how do we get the megabitch in here?"
you can get the same results by doing different things though.
Example of alternative game design
that pic is from Tribes Ascend back in beta. it used loadouts where chossing the class would decide whats available to use. scouts could use sniper rifles, while heavies could not, which was the devs choice when they designed the game.
you can pick a class/suit, choose weapons, equipment, and grenades.
each class /suit has base stats and the perk lets you modify those stats
it's all very simple and straight forward. Nova could easily just swap out the perks for dropsuit modules.
If i gave you a box full of stuff and said, "pick anything 5 things from the box you want," its not hard.
but if i said "pick any 5 things you want from anywhere but they must all fit inside the box" its a lot harder and not as straight forward.
its also harder easier to balance things by adjust the size of the box vs the size of individual items being placed in the box. that's why the fitting resource constraints need to go and be replaced.
balancing overall dropsuit effectiveness is easier when you only need to adjust the dropsuit stats instead the modules being used on them.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1480
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Posted - 2017.05.21 04:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:One Eyed King wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half.
It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished.
A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs.
Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1482
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Posted - 2017.05.21 13:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Mejt0 wrote:One Eyed King wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If you're simplifying something in order to then make it more complex, why not just build upon what's already there? All processes need streamlined. There is never a point in doing something in 10 steps when you can do the same thing in 5. Taking the 10 steps just gives twice as many chances of something going wrong, and twice as many things to work around when adding new things. The thing is the concept of PG/CPU is well known. Both in Dust and in EVE. So I don't really know if it's that much of a time saver. From my point of view it's more like starting from step x towards y vs starting from a scratch towards point y. In both cases you need to balance all kinds of stuff. Going from 2 to 1 doesn't really mean cutting the work in half. It actually does cut a lot of work. Instead of trying to balance pg/cpu for individual modules to be used on different suits with different pg/cpu capacities, you can just focus on the suits. This assumes that the modules provide a percentage based bonus instead static numerical bonuses. 25% hp increase instead of 66 hp means the bonus is equally applied and its value undeminished. A big issue in dust was hp mods had flat bonuses. 66 hp on a scout with only 100 hp is a 66% increase in health. 66 hp increase on a heavy dropsuit with 300 hp is only a 22% increase. So you can see that the module itself was imbalanced from the start, then complicate things further with fitting costs. Decreasing pg on a scout suit to prevent an additional hp mod from being used might fix and balance the hp for the scout, but might also prevent the scout from using pg heavy speed mods which share the same fitting resource. It was a frustrating mess to balance. A single additional item added to the game would break the balance and the secs would have to start all over again with balancing. I don't recall it being a big issue. Scouts who stacked hp were cannon food for every assault out there. And this has nothing to do with PG/CPU  as it's a mod's problem.
You dont remeber the cal scouts that could see you through walls from 45m and still back 400+ shield hp, while outrunning everything under the sun? They also had some pretty suspect hit detection that made things worse
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1483
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Posted - 2017.05.21 18:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
I took a look at all 4 factions for years, including spreadsheets that were discussed. The fact is, depending on your suits, bonuses, and slot layout, certain suits made more sacrifices than others. And balance should be considered at ALL levels, not merely Proto.
CPU/PG was often a constraining factor in these balance considerations, and some suits had more constraints than others. Which is why I believe reducing the resources will make balancing easier within roles, between factions, and among tiers. Hopefully when we see Nova, we won't see a game where fittings and experience level create boundaries that can't be overcome even when a lesser equipped/SP player has significantly greater ability.
I have to agree on the latter part. Player with greater SP pool shouldn't just be mathematically stronger. The more SP the more roles you can fill, the more diverse you can be. Instead of making it strictly "you gain power" I'm more keen towards "you get more possibilites". That's for infantry, if we ever see vehicles I wouldn't want to see noobs behind the wheel  . I was talking about proto because proto was/is end game. If we speak about any game let's speak about end game becasue that's where the playerbase is. For me PG/CPU system is a way to allow you to eqiup anything you want but you have to count on said sacrifices. I'm looking forward to what they think out of the fitting system. The idea of capacitor sounds promising.
We shouldn't have basic or advanced. Or the cpu/pg. if a player unlocks an item, then let them fit it.
I'd rather see modules and variants with different benefits and side effects.
Shield hp with small increase in shield delay or shield hp with larger hp increase but lowers armor amount a bit. Stuff like that can create just as deep and complex a system, while making fits truly suited to your Playstyle but still be equal in terms of power as what a new player is capable of.
Just because you have more sp shouldn't mean you can be stronger
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1483
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Posted - 2017.05.21 20:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Its kinda sad seeing people even be against the SP system which didnt let you gain as much of a mathematical advantage over time as it just gave you the flexibility of multiple fits across multiple suits.
Sp could only fill any one role so much and a dedicated player didnt have to take too long to flesh out a single role. We are definitely pulling further from the persistent existence in EVE and much closer to a traditional lobby shooter with nothing that really defines it.
I mean...class unlocks? Really? :/
When CCP said they were looking into class progression system for Nova, what do you think that means?
SP isn't the problem, how it's implemented is. SP gained over time like in Eve Online means that the strength of a character is more directly tied to how old the character is. A character created 10 years ago will always be stronger than any character created today and there's zero way to close that gap.
Dust was the same way at first, but then CCP set let gain SP through playing and get bonus SP.
Still though, with weekly SP caps, you can only close the gap if veterans stopped playing or you used skill boosters.
Who wants to play a game where you can feasibly catch up to players that started playing the game before you?
Achievement based class unlocks simply would mean that your progression through the game is entirely up to the player.
Lots of ways to handle character progression and they depend on the kind of game you want and your target audience, but saying that dust's SP wasn't biased towards veteran players simply isn't true. It totally was, and people complained about letting new players gain SP at higher rates or allow them to make up SP for days they couldn't play.
The strong just wanted to stay strong and prey on the weaker newer players as long as they could, because the players meant they were weak enough to be farmed for ISK. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1485
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Posted - 2017.05.21 22:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:As I said, SP doesnt make you directly better in any one role than another aside from brand new players who have yet to fill out a given role. If we do away with SP for a more CoD style unlock system, does that still npt leave noobs disadvantaged? Does it still not take a chunk of time to get into your role?
All Im saying is it seems like theyre pulling further away from EVEs systems without any real benefit for doing so other than "because new"
Also let me ask, what do you think CCP will monotize without SP boosters? Something that will actually draw in enough to go F2P , or do you expect this to be a full proce lobby shooter?
I played since closed beta and only had around 60 million SP yet I did just fine in most cases, actually once i hit 30 million I was mostly set.
It just seems like theyre catering to the impatient and less intelligent in order to maybe hope they buy skins? Just seems like a lot of changes to basic systems just for the sake of change, not for any actual tangible reason.
SP also allowed for a greater sense of depth and choice, letting you save up for whatever you want whenever you want, or to just spend ignorantly. It punished you for being dumb. This is good, respecs were welcome but ultimately unnecessary and a descent cash sink for whales. An unlock will mean most people will unlock everything much faster, or unlocks will take so long theyll just **** people off.
This didnt turn into a WoT or anything....but as far as unlocks go...couldnt you unlock multiple things at the same time by using them? On top of removing tiers this would go a very long way towards removing a sense of depth, commitment and accomplishment that comes with the SP system. Lets not even consoder the lore that you can literally inject knowledge into your brain, so having to use something to unlock more just makes no sense lore wise lol
Originally, dust 514's skill progression was so slow, that the devs calculated that it would take SEVEN years to unlock everything.
that obviously chnaged between skill boosters, bonus SP weekends and event the devs held but still... if youre new and and get killed by a guy running a fit you can't use for 8 months to years later, and youre getting rekt every match, why stay knowing what youre up against?
and there's no sense in accomplishment in playing the same class for months, hording SP, and then completely speccing an entire skill tree.
with a class based system, you cant do that. its like in Battlefield, you need to use the actual class you want to progress into or the items you want to use.
also progression comes in many forms. Overwatch gives you gold to buy the skins you want. COD makes you use a weapon to earn its attachments. Dust 514 used SP. Same thing and idea under different names.
I would prefer to see a progression system tied to achievements. Items unlocked through player actions over time instead of a generic resource spent to unlock things. similar to how specific tasks must be comeplted to unlock a Trophy on Sony PlayStation or an achievement on XBox One.
It allows the player to strive toward what they want at whatever speed they choose. Clearly defined tasks to be completed to unlock the items they want.
Want to unlock advanced shoguns? get 100 kills with basic shotguns.
Want to unlock proto shotguns? get 1000 kills with advanced shotguns.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1485
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Posted - 2017.05.21 22:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:If this werent a persistent shooter in the EVE universe i might be on board with an oversimplified fetch quest form of unlocks, it just seems so removed from anything familiar to the IP.
i agree that its a huge departure, but CCP said they wanted Dust 514 orginally to be the gateway drug that hooks people and draws them into the Eve IP.
You can't dump all those complexities on newcomers, and if you want to reach the widest target audience then you "dumb it down" and make it simple enough for anyone to get into. Does that mean we cant have a complex game? no, and it doesn't mean we have to department Eve either.
It really about execution and presentation. It's been 14 years since Eve came out and the NPE is still not good enough to usher in new players and help them understand the game.
We don't need that level of complexity at the beginning of something new. start small, keep it simple, and let it grow and mature. Then get fancy with it. Hopefully by then the playerbase is there and the Dev have enough experience to implement new features without confusing everyone or breaking game balance.
For the record though, if CCP said they wanted to make a ground based FPS version of Eve online, we would not be talking about simplifying anything. The overall theme would be "Welcome to Eve, and good luck." |
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1486
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Posted - 2017.05.23 23:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:
Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'.
There was just one problem with this in Dust. Two, to be exact. 1. BPO = easy money 2. PC farm = even easier money Once you got a certain amount of ISK it was very hard to go bankrupt, even if you spent more than you win each battle for months. Sitting on piles of ISK made you forget what risk-reward is.
Thats true for common gear but for rare gear it stung. Even if you could afford to replace it, getting killed in officer gear was embarrassing as hell
Can we even cause players to lose anything? is there a way for players to make other players lose anything at all?
Even if players could run the best gear all day in Dust, if they were getting stomped while wearing their best gear, they would sometimes downgrade their gear. it felt like admitting of defeat when they did and it felt good because you knew you beat them.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1486
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Posted - 2017.05.24 01:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'.
Is fear of loss of meaning rational?
I worry about it too.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
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Posted - 2017.06.03 12:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Deleted |
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