DUST Search - Discussion - Should PG and CPU be combined into one?

DUST Fiend wrote:

As I said, SP doesnt make you directly better in any one role than another aside from brand new players who have yet to fill out a given role. If we do away with SP for a more CoD style unlock system, does that still npt leave noobs disadvantaged? Does it still not take a chunk of time to get into your role?
All Im saying is it seems like theyre pulling further away from EVEs systems without any real benefit for doing so other than "because new"

Also let me ask, what do you think CCP will monotize without SP boosters? Something that will actually draw in enough to go F2P , or do you expect this to be a full proce lobby shooter?

I played since closed beta and only had around 60 million SP yet I did just fine in most cases, actually once i hit 30 million I was mostly set.

It just seems like theyre catering to the impatient and less intelligent in order to maybe hope they buy skins? Just seems like a lot of changes to basic systems just for the sake of change, not for any actual tangible reason.

SP also allowed for a greater sense of depth and choice, letting you save up for whatever you want whenever you want, or to just spend ignorantly. It punished you for being dumb. This is good, respecs were welcome but ultimately unnecessary and a descent cash sink for whales. An unlock will mean most people will unlock everything much faster, or unlocks will take so long theyll just **** people off.

This didnt turn into a WoT or anything....but as far as unlocks go...couldnt you unlock multiple things at the same time by using them? On top of removing tiers this would go a very long way towards removing a sense of depth, commitment and accomplishment that comes with the SP system. Lets not even consoder the lore that you can literally inject knowledge into your brain, so having to use something to unlock more just makes no sense lore wise lol

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9302	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:07:00 - [151] - Quote If people have not seen it yet, I ask you give this a read: http://biomassed.net/2017/05/20/theory-workshop-project-nova-capacitor-and-module-interaction/ Consider it an alternative take on fitting and how to make PG/CPU a more meaningful set of values and tie it to a central resource. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19208	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:10:00 - [152] - Quote As I said, SP doesnt make you directly better in any one role than another aside from brand new players who have yet to fill out a given role. If we do away with SP for a more CoD style unlock system, does that still npt leave noobs disadvantaged? Does it still not take a chunk of time to get into your role? All Im saying is it seems like theyre pulling further away from EVEs systems without any real benefit for doing so other than "because new" Also let me ask, what do you think CCP will monotize without SP boosters? Something that will actually draw in enough to go F2P , or do you expect this to be a full proce lobby shooter? I played since closed beta and only had around 60 million SP yet I did just fine in most cases, actually once i hit 30 million I was mostly set. It just seems like theyre catering to the impatient and less intelligent in order to maybe hope they buy skins? Just seems like a lot of changes to basic systems just for the sake of change, not for any actual tangible reason. Rage flavored bitter berry
byte modal 1316	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:40:00 - [153] - Quote Holy hell this argument has devolved back to closed beta gripes over sp gains? EvE is unique in earning sp passively, over time. Why is this progression type "special?" Because being special and standing apart makes it special by definition. Dust was only partly special because CCP changed skill progression from passive to active. That created weird issues. To fix that? Give us weapon masters to learn a weapon to then actively improve upon it...I guess? SP gains and gaps have been talked to death ad nauseam. DUST created gaps by SP, sure. But that gap was mostly due to lateral gains rather than the compounding buff that some of you are implying here. THOSE would-be tiered gaps were more obvious because Newbro SP couldn't catch up? No.... Because CCP completely missed the boat in segregating player class. We were ALL dumped into the same match, whether you had the sp, experience, or gear to back it up. Why is SP being argued...again? At least in this thread? Also, this rant isn't to CCP. I don't know WHAT you are doing enough to rant over. Though that lack of that awareness, in and of itself, deserves a dedicated rant ;) kitten bacon taco (nom)
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9302	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:46:00 - [154] - Quote Don't mind DUST Fiend. Just wait till I release the new compilation post with all the new details that have surfaced. I can hear the screeching already. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19209	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:49:00 - [155] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Don't mind DUST Fiend. Just wait till I release the new compilation post with all the new details that have surfaced. I can hear the screeching already. Autistic screeching, thank you kindly Also are we back to any opinion that opposes CCPs logic is screeching? Good to see some things never change Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9302	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:50:00 - [156] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Don't mind DUST Fiend. Just wait till I release the new compilation post with all the new details that have surfaced. I can hear the screeching already. Autistic screeching, thank you kindly Also are we back to any opinion that opposes CCPs logic is screeching? Good to see some things never change Haha no not quite, Rattati just made a particular comment which I think will rub you the wrong way in a very personal way. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19209	Posted - 2017.05.21 21:51:00 - [157] - Quote Rat man doesnt like me much lol but I cant blame him. I welcome the hate if it draws him out of his hole for a few verses. Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9303	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:05:00 - [158] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Rat man doesnt like me much lol but I cant blame him. I welcome the hate if it draws him out of his hole for a few verses. Honest talk, I don't think there is anything wrong with you stating your opinion regardless of what it may be, even if I personally disagree with you. I like to think you and I can at least be civil enough to avoid degrading the validity of each other's opinion, just as long as you don't mind the friendly jest from time too time. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19210	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:08:00 - [159] - Quote At the end of the day I just want the game to be good. Past experiences tell me I cant trust CCP to do it alone so if I have to yell at a wall to voice my opinion then you can just find me over at the GalLag facility hugging an MCC missile while i scream obscenities at it waiting for it to take off. Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9303	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:12:00 - [160] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: At the end of the day I just want the game to be good. Past experiences tell me I cant trust CCP to do it alone so if I have to yell at a wall to voice my opinion then you can just find me over at the GalLag facility hugging an MCC missile while i scream obscenities at it waiting for it to take off. I hear ya, feedback is important. Question, have you had a chance to take a look at the Theory Workshop blog I wrote? I'm curious your thoughts. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1485	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:13:00 - [161] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: As I said, SP doesnt make you directly better in any one role than another aside from brand new players who have yet to fill out a given role. If we do away with SP for a more CoD style unlock system, does that still npt leave noobs disadvantaged? Does it still not take a chunk of time to get into your role? All Im saying is it seems like theyre pulling further away from EVEs systems without any real benefit for doing so other than "because new" Also let me ask, what do you think CCP will monotize without SP boosters? Something that will actually draw in enough to go F2P , or do you expect this to be a full proce lobby shooter? I played since closed beta and only had around 60 million SP yet I did just fine in most cases, actually once i hit 30 million I was mostly set. It just seems like theyre catering to the impatient and less intelligent in order to maybe hope they buy skins? Just seems like a lot of changes to basic systems just for the sake of change, not for any actual tangible reason. SP also allowed for a greater sense of depth and choice, letting you save up for whatever you want whenever you want, or to just spend ignorantly. It punished you for being dumb. This is good, respecs were welcome but ultimately unnecessary and a descent cash sink for whales. An unlock will mean most people will unlock everything much faster, or unlocks will take so long theyll just **** people off. This didnt turn into a WoT or anything....but as far as unlocks go...couldnt you unlock multiple things at the same time by using them? On top of removing tiers this would go a very long way towards removing a sense of depth, commitment and accomplishment that comes with the SP system. Lets not even consoder the lore that you can literally inject knowledge into your brain, so having to use something to unlock more just makes no sense lore wise lol Originally, dust 514's skill progression was so slow, that the devs calculated that it would take SEVEN years to unlock everything. that obviously chnaged between skill boosters, bonus SP weekends and event the devs held but still... if youre new and and get killed by a guy running a fit you can't use for 8 months to years later, and youre getting rekt every match, why stay knowing what youre up against? and there's no sense in accomplishment in playing the same class for months, hording SP, and then completely speccing an entire skill tree. with a class based system, you cant do that. its like in Battlefield, you need to use the actual class you want to progress into or the items you want to use. also progression comes in many forms. Overwatch gives you gold to buy the skins you want. COD makes you use a weapon to earn its attachments. Dust 514 used SP. Same thing and idea under different names. I would prefer to see a progression system tied to achievements. Items unlocked through player actions over time instead of a generic resource spent to unlock things. similar to how specific tasks must be comeplted to unlock a Trophy on Sony PlayStation or an achievement on XBox One. It allows the player to strive toward what they want at whatever speed they choose. Clearly defined tasks to be completed to unlock the items they want. Want to unlock advanced shoguns? get 100 kills with basic shotguns. Want to unlock proto shotguns? get 1000 kills with advanced shotguns.
DUST Fiend 19210	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:16:00 - [162] - Quote If this werent a persistent shooter in the EVE universe i might be on board with an oversimplified fetch quest form of unlocks, it just seems so removed from anything familiar to the IP. Rage flavored bitter berry
DUST Fiend 19210	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:18:00 - [163] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: At the end of the day I just want the game to be good. Past experiences tell me I cant trust CCP to do it alone so if I have to yell at a wall to voice my opinion then you can just find me over at the GalLag facility hugging an MCC missile while i scream obscenities at it waiting for it to take off. I hear ya, feedback is important. Question, have you had a chance to take a look at the Theory Workshop blog I wrote? I'm curious your thoughts. Kinda been going through some **** IRL so I haven't checked much out. I just happened to check this for my daily dose of triggered. My opinion is low on the totem pole for ground based combat anyways. The only thing ive heard so far that feels like a step in the right direction is cap, even if it rightly belongs to pilots first ;) Rage flavored bitter berry
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 9303	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:24:00 - [164] - Quote Well, the reason I ask is because the post is about capacitor and using it as a limiting factor to balance modules/equipment fitting. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 19212	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:26:00 - [165] - Quote I'll check it out after work if I 'member. You know I value your service to the community and your feedback, even if I can find no commom ground but that from time to time. Rage flavored bitter berry
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1485	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:32:00 - [166] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: If this werent a persistent shooter in the EVE universe i might be on board with an oversimplified fetch quest form of unlocks, it just seems so removed from anything familiar to the IP. i agree that its a huge departure, but CCP said they wanted Dust 514 orginally to be the gateway drug that hooks people and draws them into the Eve IP. You can't dump all those complexities on newcomers, and if you want to reach the widest target audience then you "dumb it down" and make it simple enough for anyone to get into. Does that mean we cant have a complex game? no, and it doesn't mean we have to department Eve either. It really about execution and presentation. It's been 14 years since Eve came out and the NPE is still not good enough to usher in new players and help them understand the game. We don't need that level of complexity at the beginning of something new. start small, keep it simple, and let it grow and mature. Then get fancy with it. Hopefully by then the playerbase is there and the Dev have enough experience to implement new features without confusing everyone or breaking game balance. For the record though, if CCP said they wanted to make a ground based FPS version of Eve online, we would not be talking about simplifying anything. The overall theme would be "Welcome to Eve, and good luck."
DUST Fiend 19212	Posted - 2017.05.21 22:34:00 - [167] - Quote I dont know. Im just a masochist. Tough love and complexity are big parts of why I became so addicted in the first place. Rage flavored bitter berry
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 3234	Posted - 2017.05.23 17:30:00 - [168] - Quote Firstly, nothing wrong with a single resource model in and of itself. The proposal to couple passive/active modules to a dynamic in-match crucial stat(capacitor) is very interesting and worth exploring. In fact, i'd like to see fitting choices affect other in-match dynamic quantities: stamina/regen, tacnet profile/precision etc. This way what we lose in depth from simplifying fitting resources we gain in depth of in-match ramifications of fitting choices - such an approach takes what was two separate pieces of gameplay and adds meaning to them by unifying them around battlefield repercussions. We simultaneously make the NPE more accessible yet keep tradeoffs, meaningful decisions & deep theorycrafting for vets at the highest levels of gameplay. Disclaimer: Please don't take what's written below in a negative context, it's an honest question about preserving meaning in Nova.. Also thought of posting this elsewhere, but since other peeps are bringing up similar concerns, decided to put it here. Got to the end of this thread and had to re-read the thread title to remind myself what it was all about lol But there's a good reason all these other topics are being dragged into a fitting resources thread: Player experience. In Dust we had several interacting systems that made building a dropsuit the cumulative result of balancing multiple factors: scan profile, scan precision, scan range, stamina, mobility, defense, offense, passive vs. active, damage types, engagement ranges, equipment, AI vs. AV, etc. Layered on top of that was a resource allocation game that involved PG, CPU and BW. Layered on top of that was a risk management game that involved ISK, Leaderboard standings, skillpoint gain/allocation and finite special resources(e.g. Officer gear). It was here, where ISK loss = (time played and/or RL$) and the gameplay crossed over to real life that meaning was inserted into a lobby shooter. Dust had several other wellsprings of meaning, but this was the first that a player would encounter. What i've described above was just basic solo gameplay, there was more to fitting decisions than that when other people were involved, tbh, at the highest levels of gameplay a lot more. Encouraging the depth of all this was almost total player freedom in suit, module and equipment choice, with the exception of very few class-based restrictions: a hard restriction on equipment & heavies, a soft restriction on cloaks and scouts. Otherwise it was blue skies for theorycrafting+, in a way that didn't exist in any other online multiplayer shooter in the history of gaming. This freedom was gated by three things: skills, ISK & FW standing. It's fair to claim that the vast majority of players who played Dust had positive things to say about it's fitting system. In the same breath we know that for a significant proportion of new players the fitting system proved obtuse and was an obstacle to engaging with the game - that coupled with the risk of loss soured their experience. The real question is do we have to throw out the baby(risk) with the bathwater(complexity)? Rattati & crew are obviously trying hard to balance these factors. What are the sources of meaning in Rattati's proposed model? At tier 3 there's the guaranteed ISK loss associated with Script/firmware loss, true, but it's totally predictable. Feels more like a merc making an accounting decision than anything else. It seems to me the Nova devs are building their game design around natural human risk aversion, betting on the plausible hope that lower risk = more player engagement and hence a better player experience. i have to agree that higher engagement will give us better matches, but wonder if we will pay with a loss of meaning. Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. Is fear of loss of meaning rational? Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
Mejt0 Made in Poland... 2769	Posted - 2017.05.23 19:16:00 - [169] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. There was just one problem with this in Dust. Two, to be exact. 1. BPO = easy money 2. PC farm = even easier money Once you got a certain amount of ISK it was very hard to go bankrupt, even if you spent more than you win each battle for months. Sitting on piles of ISK made you forget what risk-reward is. Vigilant Pilot Happy Hunting
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1486	Posted - 2017.05.23 23:28:00 - [170] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Picture yourself entering a non-corp match where you see Cubs and crew loading on the opposite team. What feeling does that invoke in you in Nova vs what it would in Dust? For myself, in Dust, there would be several reactions: 'this is gonna hurt', 'this is gonna cost me bigtime', 'am i gonna back down? - hell no', and finally eagerness for the fight, prolly coupled with some ball-tightening anticipation. What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. There was just one problem with this in Dust. Two, to be exact. 1. BPO = easy money 2. PC farm = even easier money Once you got a certain amount of ISK it was very hard to go bankrupt, even if you spent more than you win each battle for months. Sitting on piles of ISK made you forget what risk-reward is. Thats true for common gear but for rare gear it stung. Even if you could afford to replace it, getting killed in officer gear was embarrassing as hell Can we even cause players to lose anything? is there a way for players to make other players lose anything at all? Even if players could run the best gear all day in Dust, if they were getting stomped while wearing their best gear, they would sometimes downgrade their gear. it felt like admitting of defeat when they did and it felt good because you knew you beat them.

One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17183	Posted - 2017.05.24 00:11:00 - [171] - Quote Many excellent points Matari, and Mejt. I would just say that RE the Cubs scenario, I am thinking that firstly, if the end game in Nova is sufficient (which should be a goal), there should be less incentive to see groups like that come into pubs looking kill time stomping. Secondly, I think it is probably good, since newer players can play their better stuff without worried about, to use poker terms, having a short stack trying to play against a large stack. Insurance is a good way for those financial imbalances like Mejt was talking about to be moot points, unlike they were in Dust, particularly in Pub matches where the ISK poor were mostly relegated to. The biggest problem will arise if the end game is not compelling enough to want to play that instead of Pubs. Dust of course had the middle ground of FW, which for a long time (pre LP), was my fav mode. It was an intermediary level between PC and Pubs. Dust ran into problems when PC became boring/unplayable, and FW was non existant. Thus Pubs became nearly the sole source of game play. If the ONLY game modes that ended up being played in Nova were the 100% insurance game modes, then I can see where the scenario Matari discussed becomes a real concern. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1486	Posted - 2017.05.24 01:47:00 - [172] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: What would the experience be in Nova? My fear is that it might be something like: 'meh, guess i'll buy insurance'. Is fear of loss of meaning rational? I worry about it too.
Terry Webber WarRavens Auxiliaries 987	Posted - 2017.05.29 00:33:00 - [173] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Terry Webber wrote: Personally, I'm kind of torn on the subject. There are a lot of advantages in each design. Could you list what you like and dislike about both? I'm just used to the old CPU/PG method. But I like the simplicity of the new method. Inertial Booster Module Vehicle Installation
DUST Fiend 19245	Posted - 2017.05.29 03:03:00 - [174] - Quote You could still keep tiers and ISK costs/ payouts AND eliminate noob stomping (or curb it, cant balance for skill and teamwork) by simply fixing PC and putting tier restrictions on pubs so you couldnt use proto gear in them, or at least in its own game mode. All this remaking the wheel business just leaves me scratching my head. Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17198	Posted - 2017.05.29 03:39:00 - [175] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: You could still keep tiers and ISK costs/ payouts AND eliminate noob stomping (or curb it, cant balance for skill and teamwork) by simply fixing PC and putting tier restrictions on pubs so you couldnt use proto gear in them, or at least in its own game mode. All this remaking the wheel business just leaves me scratching my head. It was a really sh*tty wheel. It couldn't be saved. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 19245	Posted - 2017.05.29 04:48:00 - [176] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: You could still keep tiers and ISK costs/ payouts AND eliminate noob stomping (or curb it, cant balance for skill and teamwork) by simply fixing PC and putting tier restrictions on pubs so you couldnt use proto gear in them, or at least in its own game mode. All this remaking the wheel business just leaves me scratching my head. It was a really shtty wheel. It couldn't be saved. I guess we just see it different It just had * code and low funding with a small team. The latter two don't seem to have changed. Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514**
The Paige Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2017.05.29 06:51:00 - [177] - Quote Wooo I finally got access to my account again!!!! Combine away I say! It sounds great for new players but still deeper than most FPS games. It will make it easier to balance and will still be usable to limit suit fits.
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Imperium Eden 493	Posted - 2017.05.29 22:52:00 - [178] - Quote TLDR: Personal preference: No, keep them and add to them, but... at this point, whatever works and helps going forward, pretty sure we'll never know what data they have for the changes planned. I can't really remember anyone complaining about the fitting system being hard, I remember complaints about lack of information or lack of ways to test your stuff out, but nothing about things being too complicated to grasp. The fitting system was a lot of fun for me and the target of a lot of hours which I can't say were wasted or a drag, but part of the game experience. I don't have data, but I don't think NPE had troubles with the fitting system, the actual game performance did a lot more damage than that ever did IMO. I'm in the camp of 'we should be adding things, not removing', fittings were one of the game strengths, it wasn't too complicated, at least not for the players we think we would want to have. Yes NOVA is not DUST514, but I think it's more likely the new players that will test it will be EvE players now that it's going for PC, I figure they like their PG/CPU, I do. I was under the impression that one of the objectives was to make the game more tied to EvE no? not necessarily having the games linked (unfortunately) but have the same lore, look and feel. I played a little EvE the other day, THAT's complex, not PG/CPU. www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
DUST Fiend 19248	Posted - 2017.05.29 23:24:00 - [179] - Quote I felt like PC was CCPs chance to go big and fix / improve upon the flaws of the base game Apparently throwing it all away and playing it safe is the preferred approach :/ Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 16:41:00 - [180] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Apparently throwing it all away and playing it safe is the preferred approach :/ Many companies are playing it safe currently as others are being gobbled up or fade away. It's not like CCP has a huge game library to keep them afloat if something does go awry with Nova. BTW, if you are going to be annoyed or frustrated by anyone, be frustrated or annoyed by the majority of players out there that have to basically have half the game played for them to find it enjoyable. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".



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