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NEW PLAYERS: Leaving Games Is Best Defense Against Stomps

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Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 453	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:30:00 - [1] - Quote Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel.
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:37:00 - [2] - Quote I just wanna say that from the stomping point of view... RUNNING PROTO IS SO ADDICTIVE. I don't know if it's just me or what but of the changing the play style part, it's hard when you get so addicted. Just to let you know how it is, especially for this event, o had 20m isk. I usually stop running pro when I am at that mark and I go to adv or basic. For the event, I thought, f my deaths, I'm addicted to pro and officer, just spam it. I'm down to 1m isk and I've lost about 8 officer suits as a whole. ITS ADDICTING. On the other hand, few do change style for fun or other reasons. Today in the morning I decided not to run pro for a few matches. I pullout my Amarr scout, put on my newly aquired skin, a quafe scrambler, and ran that. CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Twitter- @LD3514
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:39:00 - [3] - Quote +1, OP. These are the effects of TTK disparity on NPE. I say we give newbros the tools they need to kill the vets they outplay. And when they succeed, is at we give those who defy the odds bonus ISK and SP for each kill. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Byron Triefletcher Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 43	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:41:00 - [4] - Quote No sportsman likes a stomp. The funnest games are those in which you're paired with a challenging opponent, both sides give 100%, and victory is by a thin margin. We don't get enough matches like this in Dust, and there's not a lot we can do about it. This should be one of Rattati's top priorities right now. I'm glad to see so many repetitive complaints about it in the forums, in hopes that the noise will land in CPM's and CCP's ears. Fighting for Matari Freedom.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 453	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:49:00 - [5] - Quote I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:50:00 - [6] - Quote Leaving doesn't fix anything, if anything when you leave 5-6 people are at a huge disadvantage. The best battles are full ones. If anything seeing a bunch of people leave every time just makes they "pro's" epeen even harder.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 12	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:56:00 - [7] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing "I get to fist tanks in butt" - Jadek Menaheim
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 18:58:00 - [8] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. Yes but the problem all ways will come down to matchmaking. Why are they being put against stompers??? And whys should people like me be punished for playing the game??? Why should I take the punishment for running the proto/officer gear I rightfully earned in the same spot as the new players are right now??? Part of the problem is also people just not trying. CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Twitter- @LD3514
Lightning35 Delta514 The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:00:00 - [9] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing Preach. New players have it easier. They have more bonus sp pool, free isk and sp generated, and so much more we didn't have back then. But again the biggest problem all lies down to match making. And like I said above, why should we be punished for rubbing what we rightfully earned on the shoes of the new players??? CEO of T-W-L YouTube- Lightning35 Delta514 Twitter- @LD3514
Thumb Green Elephant Riders 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:00:00 - [10] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: the best battles are full ones. The best battles are the evenly matched ones. 16 vs 16 don't mean sh!t if over half of one team is running around like headless chickens or off in the far corners of the map jacking off. Most of what I see around here is just a bag of dicks in need of some kicks. Dust really needs its high sec.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:03:00 - [11] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing As a noob in Chromosome, I consistently killed the vets I managed to sneak up behind. Guns hit harder then, and players in competitive gear had a lot less HP than their equivalents do today. Dropsuit Usage Rates
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:06:00 - [12] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing Name one veteran who had to start while the average opponent had upto 100mil SP? Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now.. The whole "back in my day, we didn't have things handed to us like these kids today" is total BS... Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. SOONtm
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 455	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:10:00 - [13] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing But many of you came up on a more even playing field. The game today is far different from when the "vets" came up, you're absolutely right. Maybe things are easier in some respects now, but others are harder. And the thing that is generating the most QQ is noobs who get put down like sick dogs in matches. Every day there is a thread similar to "I unloaded a clip into a guys back and he turned around and insta killed me. What's up with this?". I don't think I said anywhere this is the ONLY option. I said it is the best option in some cases. Of course this isn't the only option. You can have a newbro run around with reps and a nanite injector all day, doesn't mean **** when they only have 2-5 players to rep/rez and those players are all redline sniping or jerking off in a tank. Yea in theory there are always solutions, but they don't always work as easily in practice.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 455	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:14:00 - [14] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: I just wanna say that from the stomping point of view... RUNNING PROTO IS SO ADDICTIVE. I don't know if it's just me or what but of the changing the play style part, it's hard when you get so addicted. Just to let you know how it is, especially for this event, o had 20m isk. I usually stop running pro when I am at that mark and I go to adv or basic. For the event, I thought, f my deaths, I'm addicted to pro and officer, just spam it. I'm down to 1m isk and I've lost about 8 officer suits as a whole. ITS ADDICTING. On the other hand, few do change style for fun or other reasons. Today in the morning I decided not to run pro for a few matches. I pullout my Amarr scout, put on my newly aquired skin, a quafe scrambler, and ran that. I appreciate your honesty, sounds like you need to be in Protostompers Anonymous! ;)
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:18:00 - [15] - Quote I tried this a long ass time ago. The vet mentality is perfectly seen here almost 3 years ago. 0 f*ks given and still to this day. post
Avallo Kantor 941	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:20:00 - [16] - Quote Might I suggest they just try a variety of fittings? My character has the ability to run a few full proto suits, but for the large part I just run standard suits. The secret here is that you have to be able to "get the drop" on an enemy. You will die some times, but if you can dictate an engagement then you can win it. Very simply put, know what your best environment is (dependent on current suit / weapon / personal preference / skill) and then do everything in your power to force an engagement to happen in those situations. Believe it or not, in regular pub matches you can get around to all sorts of corners on the map even in Assault suits. (And I run Armor Tanked Armarr so I'm slow) It may take some time, but if you can take a non-standard route you'll find this trek to be largely enemy free. I usually bring a spawn beacon (trying to keep with Amarr equipment flavor) that I drop once I am reasonably close to where i want to go, then head into the area that I deem best for my suit nearest to the objective. Then you just exploit that area as best you can. Remember, the difference between PRO and STD can be offset by having just a few more moments of better fire. So if you can start shooting them from behind, and be accurate they will generally die before they can get you down. "Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 12	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:20:00 - [17] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: average opponent had uto 100mil SP? Citation needed. What data has Rattati shared with us that says the average active player of Dust 514 has 100,000,000 lifetime SP? Please link it, I'd like to take a look. TheD1CK wrote: Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now. Officer spam is a problem. I will agree with you on that. Hopefully the recent change to the experimental lab will help curtail the officer stomping a bit. TheD1CK wrote: Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. No, I can deny it actually. A new player is capable of insta-gibbing people with a PLC or SG. They can provide suppression fire with MDs and LRs. They can chuck grenades that now do proto-tier damage at all tiers and ruin someone's day. They have tools available to them that can make a difference in a battle. If you want to help a new player then squad with them, give them advice on fittings, if you are feeling generous then give them some ISK. THAT is how you help new players. Not telling them to tuck tail and run at the first sight of a difficult battle. "I get to fist tanks in butt" - Jadek Menaheim
Jonny D Buelle The Warlords Legion 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:22:00 - [18] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing Preach. New players have it easier. They have more bonus sp pool, free isk and sp generated, and so much more we didn't have back then. But again the biggest problem all lies down to match making. And like I said above, why should we be punished for rubbing what we rightfully earned on the shoes of the new players??? We shouldn't be punished, however match making is only the tip of the iceberg. The real problem is the lack of tutorial and the SP gap between us Vets and the New Players. Believe it or not, but the points invested into our skill tree make it a lot harder for them to compete. If we were to all be forced into MLT, STD, or ADV suits, us Vets would still be top because of our passives. Will tierlocking help? Yes, it will, but it is only a start. I believe we to give new players a limited time period to earn triple to four times the SP, as well as better Tutorials. Director of T-W-L Keeper of the List Lord of Scrubs
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 458	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:31:00 - [19] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: average opponent had uto 100mil SP? Citation needed. What data has Rattati shared with us that says the average active player of Dust 514 has 100,000,000 lifetime SP? Please link it, I'd like to take a look. TheD1CK wrote: Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now. Officer spam is a problem. I will agree with you on that. Hopefully the recent change to the experimental lab will help curtail the officer stomping a bit. TheD1CK wrote: Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. No, I can deny it actually. A new player is capable of insta-gibbing people with a PLC or SG. They can provide suppression fire with MDs and LRs. They can chuck grenades that now do proto-tier damage at all tiers and ruin someone's day. They have tools available to them that can make a difference in a battle. If you want to help a new player then squad with them, give them advice on fittings, if you are feeling generous then give them some ISK. THAT is how you help new players. Not telling them to tuck tail and run at the first sight of a difficult battle. Go ahead and make a new character. Play the game. Come back and let us know how effective you felt. In a perfect game, your scenario works. In most games these days, its not nearly as easy as you make it out to seem. Most vets who have made a new toon come back saying "holy **** the TTK on new players is insane and the performance disparity to proto is far too great". Seriously take an hour or two on a new character and just Q pubs. Come back with an educated opinion rather than endless theory crafting. If any person is unwilling to do this, then you really should reserve your arguments to things you can actually speak to.
Starlight Burner 568	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:33:00 - [20] - Quote I don't blame y'all for leaving battles. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! ROCK BAND 4 OMG! =ƒÄ+GÖ¬

Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 458	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:34:00 - [21] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: I tried this a long ass time ago. The vet mentality is perfectly seen here almost 3 years ago. 0 f*ks given and still to this day. post Holy crap the responses to your thread were disgusting!
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:36:00 - [22] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: average opponent had uto 100mil SP? Citation needed. What data has Rattati shared with us that says the average active player of Dust 514 has 100,000,000 lifetime SP? Please link it, I'd like to take a look. TheD1CK wrote: Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now. Officer spam is a problem. I will agree with you on that. Hopefully the recent change to the experimental lab will help curtail the officer stomping a bit. TheD1CK wrote: Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. No, I can deny it actually. A new player is capable of insta-gibbing people with a PLC or SG. They can provide suppression fire with MDs and LRs. They can chuck grenades that now do proto-tier damage at all tiers and ruin someone's day. They have tools available to them that can make a difference in a battle. If you want to help a new player then squad with them, give them advice on fittings, if you are feeling generous then give them some ISK. THAT is how you help new players. Not telling them to tuck tail and run at the first sight of a difficult battle. I actually play the game more than Rattati, no need to thank me for sharing the info. The damage has been done with Ofc/Exp gear, as long as you can use it (pubs) you will abuse it. Yes, telling the new guy to play niche roles or camp with MD/LR is one option.. but the vet still has an array of counters available, higher dmg output and more base hp. For example, I have a slave alt "M-TAR" 1.6mil SP.. to come anyway near a decent EoM reward, I have to play unbelievably tryhard due to lack of hp, weapons or equipment to earn WP, along with the fact I have game experience while playing this, so I do ok. You can't ask a new player to make that commitment. And for what? "Welcome to New Eden" we decyrpted this a while back, it's code for "go play something else" I despise what the OP is doing, but I 100% agree it is the most effective way to counter being farmed.. and hey if it shoves a stick up CCP's ass and makes them do something about it, it's a win for all of us SOONtm
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:40:00 - [23] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: I don't blame y'all for leaving battles. This is what it comes down to. Any actual vet would agree with the newbs leaving in masses Why the hell should they deal with getting stomped over CCP's negligence to the problem ??? - I have always fought back Vs stomps, even when I was new.. it does me 0 favours and I dont advise trying it SOONtm
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 462	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:42:00 - [24] - Quote This is exactly what this post is: a stick for CCPs rectum. Tickle tickle, your game is dying! Most Russians or armies who adopt a scorched earth policy don't take pleasure in burning down their own homes and fields, but is sure is an effective strategy.
Rinzler XVII Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 420	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:45:00 - [25] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel. When I posted a similar thread a few days ago you trolled me on it yet here you are agreeing with me... Haha I knew a few days of this event would change people's thinking I Fight for the User It's a shame that my user sucks at DUST
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 462	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:47:00 - [26] - Quote What about leaving games? I trolled you? Can you link or quote that, cause I feel confused. I do get drunk often these days, so its totally a possibility!
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:48:00 - [27] - Quote To put in context for those who don't have a clue what they are talking about. - Playing a PC v AE on my main "TheD1CK" blood, sweat and QQ galore.. is equal to - Playing a pub v Mercs with 20-100 SP+ on my alt "M-TAR" more blood, cold sweats and a fever that may kill me in terms of the effort I'd put into the battle, I have to try harder in a pub with minimal SP lol Yeah, let's cheer on the newbro's and act like trying to fight back is anything other than pointless SOONtm
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 4	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:54:00 - [28] - Quote That's the strategy i use against invaders of EU server. Let them alone. Regressed to blueberry level.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 12	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:55:00 - [29] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: I actually play the game more than Rattati, no need to thank me for sharing the info. So you can't cite your source then? The amount of hours you play Dust is irrelevant. Until you can query the average lifetime SP of the Dust player population from a database the "100mil SP average" comment is hyperbole. "I get to fist tanks in butt" - Jadek Menaheim
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 19:58:00 - [30] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: I tried this a long ass time ago. The vet mentality is perfectly seen here almost 3 years ago. Zero f*ks given still to this day. Now it has come to a boiling point where people do not even stay in games anymore. -Rage quitting due to uneven matches and bugs. -Cowardliness of vets who have the isk but run away from any competition at moments notice. They see a superior team on the other side and leave instead of getting good. -cheapskate vets who do not want to spend any isk. -and most importantly the poor players who can not compete. There is no healthy competition in this game anymore and that's what happens when you limit your self's in small platform with a low player base pool and on top of all that... all the bad decisions that CCP has made with this game developmental wise. This was a really good game in chromosome minus the bugs and lag. The mechanics worked way better than today. Each role worked their purpose if done correctly. I don't know why they decided to change the entire formula with uprising. Ps3 limitations? The people who really tried and kept things interesting are all gone. Imperfects, PBFHz, Hell Storm, SyNergy Gaming. A game such as this can not live off casuals, a game's FPS succes is determined by its competitive player pool. They are the ones who keep other vets of the same skill level stay and fight meanwhile the low sp players play against other low sp players. You can not mix them together and CCP no longer has the luxury to fix the NPE because there is no such thing anymore. I suggest moving on and stop worrying about the NPE because it is fked. You cant have both vets and noobs going at each other the same time, it will destroy the game to a point where nobody is having fun anymore. This is the great depression of dust and nobody sees it. If there is no money to incentive people to fight then there is no competition. There has to be a massive change in dust regarding isk, rewards, and prices because as it is right now there is no way noobs can compete against people with billions of isk. post Kalante - 2015 "I told you so" SOONtm

TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:06:00 - [31] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: I actually play the game more than Rattati, no need to thank me for sharing the info. So you can't cite your source then? The amount of hours you play Dust is irrelevant. Until you can query the average lifetime SP of the Dust player population from a database the "100mil SP average" comment is hyperbole. I am the source. I try to get on daily for a few battles and I actually SEE it for myself. You can read applause but getting the point seems beyond you... Are you really arguing that newbs do not have to fight mercs with 100mil SP?? yes in fact the data would probably say the average is lower than 100m, this means sweet f all to the point I was making.. Back then, those that are vets now NEVER had to deal with 100mil SP + Are you any closer to getting it? or will I get a spreadsheet ready?? or paint a picture? - seperate issue, we need a tag for those that play the game opposed to those who play the forum. Yes, you can read quite fine and my posts rarely make sense, but c'mon.. anyone playing the game can agree with me. SOONtm
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:09:00 - [32] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing Name one veteran who had to start while the common merc had upto 100mil SP? Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now.. The whole "back in my day, we didn't have things handed to us like these kids today" is total BS... Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. Edited so Riley can get off TheD1CK and on to the problems facing new players. SOONtm
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 12	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:17:00 - [33] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Are you really arguing that newbs do not have to fight mercs with 100mil SP?? yes in fact the data would probably say the average is lower than 100m, this means sweet f all to the point I was making. The point I am making is that you don't know the average SP of the Dust population. You literally have no way of knowing that number. I don't give a damn how many matches you play every day. Beyond that, yes, new players as of Warlords 1.2 have to contend with higher SP players in matches. This also works both ways though. They have teammates and redberries who are higher SP. The hives they step on now are probably more often adv and proto than launch day. I'm willing to bet they would provide suppression fire for teammates with more SP into weapons than folks had on launch day. You and OP act like every match it's new players in starter fittings vs. 16 battle hardened 100mil lifetime SP veterans in full officer gear. TheD1CK wrote: Separate issue, we need a tag for those that play the game opposed to those who play the forum. I also try to play daily, as my work schedule permits. Don't you worry. "I get to fist tanks in butt" - Jadek Menaheim
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:28:00 - [34] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Are you really arguing that newbs do not have to fight mercs with 100mil SP?? yes in fact the data would probably say the average is lower than 100m, this means sweet f all to the point I was making. The point I am making is that you don't know the average SP of the Dust population. You literally have no way of knowing that number. I don't give a damn how many matches you play every day. Beyond that, yes, new players as of Warlords 1.2 have to contend with higher SP players in matches. This also works both ways though. They have teammates and redberries who are higher SP. The hives they step on now are probably more often adv and proto than launch day. I'm willing to bet they would provide suppression fire for teammates with more SP into weapons than folks had on launch day. You and OP act like every match it's new players in starter fittings vs. 16 battle hardened 100mil lifetime SP veterans in full officer gear. TheD1CK wrote: Separate issue, we need a tag for those that play the game opposed to those who play the forum. I also try to play daily, as my work schedule permits. Don't you worry. Me and the OP are not far from it on that. Most battles just need 1 vet w/100mil SP and thats enough to ruin it I got a bit ranty at your defence of the situation.. But you need to look at the reality, while all these bells have been added for NPE, the vets have gained equally. (more?) And we never had to deal with that crap when we started, sorry for the ranting.. but despite the SP I've earned I will always be a starter fit newb at heart (and in skill level) so I tend to get defensive for my bro's. That and the misunderstanding was simple.. I should have wrote "The average battle has player(s) with upto 100mil SP, old vets never had to deal with that at the start" Either way, the mistake you made was reading a D1CK post word for word.. I have a code you know #NeverNotSh!tpost SOONtm
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:34:00 - [35] - Quote DISCLAIMER: I do not agree with the actions described in the OP But, I do agree with forcing both the players and CCP's hand to do something about it, if this is it, fair enough. SOONtm
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:37:00 - [36] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: I actually play the game more than Rattati, no need to thank me for sharing the info. So you can't cite your source then? The amount of hours you play Dust is irrelevant. Until you can query the average lifetime SP of the Dust player population from a database the "100mil SP average" comment is hyperbole. Daemonn Adima wrote: Go ahead and make a new character. Play the game. Come back and let us know how effective you felt. I will just as soon as I earn the 21 victories for the event on my main. You should know that I did this when Warlords 1.0 dropped though. My alt's KDR wasn't great, but I also didn't lose any ISK from death since my fittings were less than a 1k ISK per. I got a metric fucktonne of kill assists and repped an HMG sentinel while he steamrolled people. It was actually a lot of fun! And this was before the flattening of slot progression. I bet I can make some decent starter fittings now. While there may be hyperbole, the point still stands. I have rather limited playing time and still have something like 30 mil SP, which is more than enough to confer a significant advantage over new players. You can say what you want about flat slot progression, but the facts are that vets who have maxed shields, armor, engineering, and CPU (forgot which skill), have a massive advantage even using start vs starter. What good does flat slot progression do when they don't have the cpu/pg, or even SP into useful things such as kinkcats or myos? At this point you are saying there is only one way to skill into anything until you have enough SP to diversify. Because there is no point in trying to skill into the play style they want, because its ok that those are ineffective until you get 10mil SP or so. Frankly, I think the notion that new players have it better now than those of us that have been here years is simply not the case, as any positive change like slot progression flatness has significantly overshadowed by the many changes to make proto much better than standard gear. For many months there were changes to weaponry and eq that took once viable standard gear and made them ineffective in the name of encouraging proto skilling. It was understandable but misguided and many people pointed out the dangers and effects on the NPE. I know you want this game ported, but if you cannot acknowledge these problems, and find ways to address them, we will simply port the problems to a new platform, and doom a port before it has even begun. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.26 20:50:00 - [37] - Quote X players are killing the game! Lets kill the game faster! Race you suckers to the bottom. You want real change? Work constructively, not destructively. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:08:00 - [38] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: X players are killing the game! Lets kill the game faster! Race you suckers to the bottom. You want real change? Work constructively, not destructively. I tried suggesting we differentiate std, adv, and proto differently than just damage, much like they just recently did with grenades, but for a greater number of weapons, but it was largely ignored. You are certainly welcome to make your own suggestions. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 469	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:39:00 - [39] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: I actually play the game more than Rattati, no need to thank me for sharing the info. So you can't cite your source then? The amount of hours you play Dust is irrelevant. Until you can query the average lifetime SP of the Dust player population from a database the "100mil SP average" comment is hyperbole. Daemonn Adima wrote: Go ahead and make a new character. Play the game. Come back and let us know how effective you felt. I will just as soon as I earn the 21 victories for the event on my main. You should know that I did this when Warlords 1.0 dropped though. My alt's KDR wasn't great, but I also didn't lose any ISK from death since my fittings were less than a 1k ISK per. I got a metric fucktonne of kill assists and repped an HMG sentinel while he steamrolled people. It was actually a lot of fun! And this was before the flattening of slot progression. I bet I can make some decent starter fittings now. While there may be hyperbole, the point still stands. I have rather limited playing time and still have something like 30 mil SP, which is more than enough to confer a significant advantage over new players. You can say what you want about flat slot progression, but the facts are that vets who have maxed shields, armor, engineering, and CPU (forgot which skill), have a massive advantage even using start vs starter. What good does flat slot progression do when they don't have the cpu/pg, or even SP into useful things such as kinkcats or myos? At this point you are saying there is only one way to skill into anything until you have enough SP to diversify. Because there is no point in trying to skill into the play style they want, because its ok that those are ineffective until you get 10mil SP or so. Frankly, I think the notion that new players have it better now than those of us that have been here years is simply not the case, as any positive change like slot progression flatness has significantly overshadowed by the many changes to make proto much better than standard gear. For many months there were changes to weaponry and eq that took once viable standard gear and made them ineffective in the name of encouraging proto skilling. It was understandable but misguided and many people pointed out the dangers and effects on the NPE. I know you want this game ported, but if you cannot acknowledge these problems, and find ways to address them, we will simply port the problems to a new platform, and doom a port before it has even begun. +1. Originally constructive means to solve this problem are met with incessant trolling, QQ nubs and git gud scrubz. I've started more than one thread with proposed ideas to help keep maxed out vets from going against newborn clones. I still firmly believe the quickest and easiest solution would be meta tiers. No one is restricted from using anything, just who you can use it against. Even Shaun Iwario (sp?) detailed out numbers of a basic example between std vs proto / std vs adv / std vet vs atd noob. When you find on average a new player has to land 90% more shots than a vet to get the same effect... Cmon. That's not right.
dusty5678 WarRavens Imperium Eden 319	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:39:00 - [40] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel. Get good. Noob. "Terrible thing to send a universe to certain doom... Fun though!" Long Live Queen ZarZar <3 CCP act like you care.

Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:46:00 - [41] - Quote Not a bad plan... But who are these "new players" you speak of? Also there are more problems with the game than stomps...
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:55:00 - [42] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: I tried this a long ass time ago. The vet mentality is perfectly seen here almost 3 years ago. Zero f*ks given still to this day. Now it has come to a boiling point where people do not even stay in games anymore. ... post Looks like every single merc in that thread has moved onto other games. Dropsuit Usage Rates
TIGER SHARK1501 Savage Bullet RUST415 542	Posted - 2015.10.26 21:59:00 - [43] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. Yes but the problem all ways will come down to matchmaking. Why are they being put against stompers??? And whys should people like me be punished for playing the game??? Why should I take the punishment for running the proto/officer gear I rightfully earned in the same spot as the new players are right now??? Part of the problem is also people just not trying. I played for 3 hours last night bouncing between Domination and Ambush without a single victory. . I was with a squad every time and I couldn't even get the daily key let alone 1 victory to go towards the event. That is frustrating and the proto spam was absurd. Could I have run proto? Yes I could've but I unless I was trying to keep people alive with my Proto Min Logi I didn't feel it was necessary or worth the beating.
Victor889 warravens Imperium Eden 317	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:02:00 - [44] - Quote It is a pain in the ass, you can see it on spawn too - some of your blues leaving - "oh, why is that?" you think looks at player list "Oh yes, 4-6 people from Insert corp with even a slight inclination to team up, I don't think I want to be pissed all over thank you" - Leave too, and pray for the poor souls who stay/don't realise Yes yes - "play in a squad" is the quick and easy response but sometimes I don't have time to wait in the squad finder for 3 other people to join and/or wait around in corp chat for someone to join me, I just want to get in and play, turn this $hit off and get on with some IRL stuff.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:02:00 - [45] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: X players are killing the game! Lets kill the game faster! Race you suckers to the bottom. You want real change? Work constructively, not destructively. I tried suggesting we differentiate std, adv, and proto differently than just damage, much like they just recently did with grenades, but for a greater number of weapons, but it was largely ignored. You are certainly welcome to make your own suggestions. If you tried to be constructive, then this comment is not directed towards you. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Bradric Banewolf Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:22:00 - [46] - Quote I have to agree with what the OP wrote! I don't blame you one bit! This "get gud" "HTFU" mentality IS BS! It leads to players being willing to cheat to win just to "get gud". What I will say however, is that proto isn't the issue. Proto suits die just as fast at times as basic or advanced. I myself usually fight in CQC in advanced gear, and only use proto for critical roles where the difference really matters. For instance, I run pro scout because every second counts! The mods and fitting makes a huge difference in survival. It's the opposite with the mandos, sentinels, and assaults. Because you're in the thick of things regularly, economically it's financial suicide to run full pro. This is where fittings being maxed comes in big! Advanced fits can, in some cases, fit better complex gear on them. Not all, but the critical ones! Like fitting a proto hmg on an advanced setup, but at the cost of ehp. The same goes for complex mods on advanced suits at the cost of weapon level. What I also would advocate is some serious teamwork! I feel you new bros, but while most will say "I went through it so it's your turn", and in some cases I agree, I will also tell you that the game was simply different then as well. While the Eve environment is ruthless, it shouldn't be unplayable?! I have many post here advocating to help new bros out without meta locks, and gear restrictions. The gear isn't as much of an advantage as you guys think. I've also been in game in my chat "Fighthouse" helping new bros understand economy, tactics, and teamwork through skilling into your skill tree correctly! These things make a huge difference in gameplay! Just because you lost the battle doesn't mean you lost the war! What this means is use your heads! Team up! Attack together! Defend together! Build fits, not for your own personal survival, but the best fit to compliment your buddy! Get on comms and have conversations about tactics and fitting. Don't bash each other's ideas?! I see that alot, and it only leads to players not working together at all. Use your bonuses to help your buddies, and not just yourself! If you read the suit bonuses it will show you how they're built to help each other! Most of you just pick fits like the min assault to help yourselves?! Fotm has led to less squading and teamwork because no one runs team support fits. You guys all just run the latest kd padding fit?! I only run officer in PC, proto in factional, and when I play pubs it's advanced or less, but my reasons are different from you guys! It's economically sound as well! I can afford proto in FW because I don't run pro in pubs, and I squad with at least 6-8 always! Less blues means more help to keep me alive! In the pubs we only got 4 so the gear goes down a notch to keep matches affordable. I am willing to risk officer in PC because all 16 are on comms helping me win! Also, to new bros I know you hear us say finish your upgrades!!! Especially your fitting upgrades!!! You look at the SP cost and don't want to save up to finish. You buy another unfinished rifle?! Fitting makes my basic and advanced fits that much better to where I could run really beast advanced fits that can kill your half *ssed proto fits?! The same goes for vehicles! I have my vehicle skills maxed in what I use, but never run proto madruger or marduk. How you ask? Because I can fit the advanced and basic really well! The proto cost is impractical to "my" economy, and not what everyone else says you should be running?! My advice to a new bro... 1. GET IN SQUAD, AND CORP! You have help, use it! I will never understand this solo bs?! Even when I played battlefield and other shooters I wanted teammates! 2.Understand that dust514 isn't a sprint, it's a marathon! No vet you see now has played all this time without heartache and struggle! 3. Spend time playing the other 80% of the game... ECONOMY! We now have a trade system, NPC market, and many other options to make isk besides battle! Spend some time learning where you can save on fits, and develop some good relationships for trade. I honestly sell more gear than I buy, and trade 1 for 1 often with trusted friends. You guys get scammed by the same 15 guys REPEATEDLY! Managing your personal economy is part of gameplay as well. 4. SPECIALIZE! SPECIALIZE! SPECIALIZE! If everyone wants to be a slayer, how do you stand out? Fotm raises kd, but empties wallets lol! The roles in the the Eve universe are vast! Find your niche, not everyone elses?! I am no slayer, but my tactics are raw enough for CEO's to offer isk for my services! My specialties on the field are needed as I am willing to forget about kd to get the job done that no one else wants to do. How many corps have you been in where the large majority of players all run min assault? Find the roles that no one runs, and make it viable! This will make you useful to the team, and will get you in squad and on PC rosters alot faster than you will even be ready for lol! When they say "bruh your kd low". I say "muthafucka I'm rich!" LOL! 5. Be willing to learn from knowledgeable vets! Too many of you are frankly douchebags?! No one want's to help a COD slayer wannabe that thinks he knows it all?! They continue to let you die until you figure it out, trust me. Take some constructive criticism, stop worrying about that useless number called kd, and stop staring at the leader board and end of match report letting them lead your gameplay. Kd doesn't make money. You make more money as a squad helping one another! 6. SQUAD! SQUAD! SQUAD! Get in a squad and play skirmish! Dom burns brain cells, and destroys any creativity. You don't have to work together that much in dom, and that leads to less squading. "Fighthouse" is the chat, and there are others just like it where humble vets love to teach. Stop creating corps of new bros, and join corps willing to grow with you. This game has thousands of corps, but 20 in PC?! "Anybody order chaos?"
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 3	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:24:00 - [47] - Quote Feh. KDR matchmaking would have fixed everything, but nooooo.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 297	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:26:00 - [48] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Are you really arguing that newbs do not have to fight mercs with 100mil SP?? yes in fact the data would probably say the average is lower than 100m, this means sweet f all to the point I was making. The point I am making is that you don't know the average SP of the Dust population. You literally have no way of knowing that number. I don't give a damn how many matches you play every day. Beyond that, yes, new players as of Warlords 1.2 have to contend with higher SP players in matches. This also works both ways though. They have teammates and redberries who are higher SP. The hives they step on now are probably more often adv and proto than launch day. I'm willing to bet they would provide suppression fire for teammates with more SP into weapons than folks had on launch day. You and OP act like every match it's new players in starter fittings vs. 16 battle hardened 100mil lifetime SP veterans in full officer gear. TheD1CK wrote: Separate issue, we need a tag for those that play the game opposed to those who play the forum. I also try to play daily, as my work schedule permits. Don't you worry. Me and the OP are not far from it on that. Most battles just need 1 vet w/100mil SP and thats enough to ruin it I got a bit ranty at your defence of the situation.. But you need to look at the reality, while all these bells have been added for NPE, the vets have gained equally. (more?) And we never had to deal with that crap when we started, sorry for the ranting.. but despite the SP I've earned I will always be a starter fit newb at heart (and in skill level) so I tend to get defensive for my bro's. That and the misunderstanding was simple.. I should have wrote "The average battle has player(s) with upto 100mil SP, old vets never had to deal with that at the start" Either way, the mistake you made was reading a D1CK post word for word.. I have a code you know #NeverNotSh!tpost 1 vet with high SP ruins it for the 16 on the other side. Yeah, you shouldn't be playing pvp games. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Bradric Banewolf Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:26:00 - [49] - Quote Also, new bros..... YOU AREN'T RAMBRO LOL! Get in squad, hold a point, and bring what the 4 of you need to do so. If all of you did that there would be no such thing as a "blueberry". You 4 would be holding home, 4 more would be attacking their home, 4 more would be in vehicles, 4 more would be scouting. If you got 5 million SP why are you attacking anything? You will make average 200k just holding home, dropping links, and killing 4 guys. You guys are attacking in the middle of no where, losing 16 half ss adv suits, and losing money overall because you trying to get that dumbss number up called kd smh?! "Anybody order chaos?"
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1	Posted - 2015.10.26 22:34:00 - [50] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Most vets who have made a new toon come back saying "holy **** the TTK on new players is insane and the performance disparity to proto is far too great". New players have it far better than it used to be. The gap between standard and prototype has done nothing but closer and closer. Low end gear has better HP and regeneration. Now the only difference between standard and prototype weapons are damage, where before you even would have more range, better falloff. Coordination and actual skill > SP. If you don't want to play with other people and take advantage of teamwork then that's all on you. It will get you much farther than playing by yourself regardless of the amount of SP you have. The enemies of God stand broken before us. The light of the Reclaiming shines over them! 12/13/14 Never forget

Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 369	Posted - 2015.10.26 23:50:00 - [51] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Most vets who have made a new toon come back saying "holy **** the TTK on new players is insane and the performance disparity to proto is far too great". New players have it far better than it used to be. The gap between standard and prototype has done nothing but closer and closer. Low end gear has better HP and regeneration. Now the only difference between standard and prototype weapons are damage, where before you even would have more range, better falloff. Coordination and actual skill > SP. If you don't want to play with other people and take advantage of teamwork then that's all on you. It will get you much farther than playing by yourself regardless of the amount of SP you have. On paper, things are kinda better for new players in terms of base suit stats. But that's it. The gap between the performance of Basic -> Complex modules is HUGE. In many cases they're over 100% stronger. That's where SP matters, it gives you the ability to run hugely effective modules while further buffing those modules. Being locked out of those modules really hurts a new players chances of survival, especially when you consider the composition of the current playerbase. I'm not saying that things weren't hard on new players previously, but there is no way around the fact that new players are so much more likely to have to face up against huge numbers of high SP players than they were a year or two ago. Watch this old video of C Moody running a pub. Notice how many times MLT and STD comes up in the killfeed? Todays playerbase has shifted so far towards high SP players that you'd never see that anymore. Sure, he was running proto and he wrecked (though he'd wreck in anything) but at least you could see that the lower SP players had plenty of targets they could have a fair crack at. Those targets are few and far between for current new players. Something is killing new player retention.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.27 00:47:00 - [52] - Quote Press Attache wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Are you really arguing that newbs do not have to fight mercs with 100mil SP?? yes in fact the data would probably say the average is lower than 100m, this means sweet f all to the point I was making. The point I am making is that you don't know the average SP of the Dust population. You literally have no way of knowing that number. I don't give a damn how many matches you play every day. Beyond that, yes, new players as of Warlords 1.2 have to contend with higher SP players in matches. This also works both ways though. They have teammates and redberries who are higher SP. The hives they step on now are probably more often adv and proto than launch day. I'm willing to bet they would provide suppression fire for teammates with more SP into weapons than folks had on launch day. You and OP act like every match it's new players in starter fittings vs. 16 battle hardened 100mil lifetime SP veterans in full officer gear. TheD1CK wrote: Separate issue, we need a tag for those that play the game opposed to those who play the forum. I also try to play daily, as my work schedule permits. Don't you worry. Me and the OP are not far from it on that. Most battles just need 1 vet w/100mil SP and thats enough to ruin it I got a bit ranty at your defence of the situation.. But you need to look at the reality, while all these bells have been added for NPE, the vets have gained equally. (more?) And we never had to deal with that crap when we started, sorry for the ranting.. but despite the SP I've earned I will always be a starter fit newb at heart (and in skill level) so I tend to get defensive for my bro's. That and the misunderstanding was simple.. I should have wrote "The average battle has player(s) with upto 100mil SP, old vets never had to deal with that at the start" Either way, the mistake you made was reading a D1CK post word for word.. I have a code you know #NeverNotSh!tpost 1 vet with high SP ruins it for the 16 on the other side. Yeah, you shouldn't be playing pvp games. Sorry.. you have another word for 1 player with a severe SP advantage battling guys that barely know how to fit a suit? Because imo, when 1 player is dropping 30+ kills vs the enemy as they are using fits that have no place in a pub.. it is not only ruining the game for the the other side, but your own team also, as they wait about trying to pick up scraps. Unless.. you might be one of those that think a maxed fit in pubs dropping 20/30 kills is "skill" it is in some cases, and if we actually had balanced modes in term of gear use/SP level, I would not argue it. But, we don't. In that case, what does it matter that upto 30 people didn't enjoy a battle because someone was too l33t SOONtm
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 372	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:01:00 - [53] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Sorry.. you have another word for 1 player with a severe SP advantage battling guys that barely know how to fit a suit? Because imo, when 1 player is dropping 30+ kills vs the enemy as they are using fits that have no place in a pub.. it is not only ruining the game for the the other side, but your own team also, as they wait about trying to pick up scraps. Unless.. you might be one of those that think a maxed fit in pubs dropping 20/30 kills is "skill" it is in some cases, and if we actually had balanced modes in term of gear use/SP level, I would not argue it. But, we don't. In that case, what does it matter that upto 30 people didn't enjoy a battle because someone was too l33t You've got the right thinking but no-one is going to take you seriously if you stick to your guns on the 'one player running proto' line. If there were matches with only one or two high SP players running proto, but the rest of the team is mostly new players then we'd be in a much better situation. Case in point: the video I posted above. It's more of an overall playerbase thing. It's many high SP players running proto and even more running ADV with complex mods and the SP modifiers to back them up. That's the what current new players are bashing their heads against, with barely a couple of other new players around to give them an even engagement. The people that are saying 'we had to go up against proto when we were new' are technically right, but what they're not acknowledging is the frequency at which it was happening. Something is killing new player retention.
IceShifter Childhaspawn Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 816	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:08:00 - [54] - Quote Until a fix comes about just leave the match. Everyone is lobbying for their own parties in here (including but not limited to:) -Troll party (git gud group or the endless 'prove it to me' crowd) -Meta Lock -NPE -HTFU (bittervets) Stomps suck. They suck worse is DUST because we pay for each suit we lose. Besides on the forums there is no one man army that turns around a stomp so it is pointless to continue (except for lulz) Squadding takes for-frakking-ever to coordinate and 10 percent of the time you are a WP source for people who have you muted. If you are extremely lucky you will get into a squad with a vet who can show you how to play or keep you alive long enough to get a proto suit. This game. This best worst game around. This game... It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:25:00 - [55] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Coordination and ~~actual skill~~ High HP & High-End Gear > SP. FTFY Dropsuit Usage Rates
Hylian11 Opus Arcana 344	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:47:00 - [56] - Quote Everyone who leaves battles lacks honor.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 1	Posted - 2015.10.27 01:48:00 - [57] - Quote Thumb Green wrote: HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: the best battles are full ones. The best battles are the evenly matched ones. 16 vs 16 don't mean sh!t if over half of one team is running around like headless chickens or off in the far corners of the map jacking off. I dont have a corporate isk facet feeding my play so even tho I'm matched against top corps I'm expected by matchmaker to run the same gear pro/officer as them. Maybe remove isk and if you have the skill unlocked you can run whatever you want... And squads screw off and do pointless things all the time "for fun" ( watch me force my tank under the map dude ).
Aythadis Smith 310	Posted - 2015.10.27 04:25:00 - [58] - Quote I approve of this total read. Even seeing Kal putting in his two cents made it worth it. Lord guide my pimp hand, and make it strong
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.27 05:13:00 - [59] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Coordination and ~~actual skill~~ Better Gear + More HP > SP. FTFY. Winning after getting shot in the back by a newbro who got the drop on you isn't "skill". It also isn't "teamwork" and it certainly isn't "tactical". So I can just stick any dumbass in a proto suit with a 60 mil SP toon and watch him go to town? Shotty, its the same in EVE. You give a new player a large SP toon with big ships he doesn't know how to use and he will get blown up and laughed at. Same here in Dust. Wearing a proto suit does not magically make you some amazing freaking player. Some of these guys don't even know how to properly fit a fucking suit for christs sake. RANT INCOMING, NOT DIRECTED AT YOU SHOTTY. List of tools that people have to LEARN to be good at FPS: Prefiring, Reload Canceling, Strafing, Burst Firing, Tactical Awareness, Map Knowledge, Map Control, Victory Conditions, AND THE LIST GOES ON. EVERY SINGLE FIGHT that I've had fun in, fights that had me fighting to the wire to try and pull out the victory had people who knew how to work together. They didn't even have to wear proto, all they need to be is co-ordinated. PUSH points together. Find, Fix, Flank, Finish. Know how to stonewall a defense, with proper heavy support and logistics. Uplink control, proper scanning, hacking the right points when you need to. Seriously. The list of tools that make a team GREAT is far longer than just "Wear Proto". Almost everything that make these "Proto Stompers" great are things that they LEARNED over playing the game. "But Ghost, you keep talking about the team, I'm talking about individual players." STFU. Where do you think the team STARTS from dumbass? It starts with YOU. What are YOU doing to contribute to the team? YOU have to know that the team needs more uplinks. YOU have to be the one to whip out the logi when you see heavies bunching up to defend. YOU have to be the one to know that you need that outside point if you want to win the match. YOU have learn how to PLAY. THE. GAME. I've tried SO HARD over the years to try and teach people how to play the game. I've written guides. I've given fitting advice. I've offered to squad with people. I was even in a freaking MENTOR corp for scouts for a while. You want to know how many people have ever taken me up on the squadding and playing with me advice? NOBODY. I've come to the sad conclusion that the vast majority of people in this game don't want to improve. They want to drag everyone down to their level. And if they can't, they'll remove whatever they think is "cheating them" of their victory. I don't know why I'm surprised. Real life is full of people like this too. Why the hell should it be different for a video game? Does this mean that newbies need to get stomped into oblivion? Hell no. Are there things we can do to improve the experience? Hell yes. But blaming all of your problems on the fucking GEAR they're running will get you NOWHERE. More than half of the people complaining need to step back, take a long ass look at how they play the game, and start noticing that most of their issues in game lie between the controller and chair. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 379	Posted - 2015.10.27 05:35:00 - [60] - Quote Eh as long as gear + SP provides a ~90% TTK differential between new and old players, I reserve my right to flag it as a problem. It conflates outcomes during the learning experience - make the wrong move get rekt, make the right move get rekt. It is just poor game design to throw two players with that big of a stat difference into the same combat arena. Something is killing new player retention.

Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 131	Posted - 2015.10.27 05:39:00 - [61] - Quote Honestly, the veterans have better gear, and passive, and what have you, but you know what else we have? Experience. That absolutely trumps all. I have taken somewhere around 6 toons through the academy. Every single time, (barring the first), I have managed to come out with something close to 30 kills in my very first match. At some point in time you need to just learn to play better. You're not going to do that if you're always running away from fights. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 381	Posted - 2015.10.27 06:01:00 - [62] - Quote Kail Mako wrote: Every single time, (barring the first) I have managed to come out with something close to 30 kills in my very first match. (barring the first) I... umm. Who do you think we are talking about when we say 'new players'? (not that I'm for this whole match-leaving idea, more just maybe not throwing new players into matches comprised of 90% well established players, or if we have to do that maybe not adding a 90% TTK disadvantage to them while they're trying to learn the game) Something is killing new player retention.
Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 131	Posted - 2015.10.27 06:07:00 - [63] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: (barring the first) I... umm. Who do you think we are talking about when we say 'new players'? (not that I'm for this whole match-leaving idea, more just maybe not throwing new players into matches comprised of 90% well established players, or if we have to do that maybe not adding a 90% TTK disadvantage to them while they're trying to learn the game) You totally and utterly failed to see the point of the post....... The point is that when you're a new player you're going to have trouble, but you still need to stick it out so you can get better. If you're playing on a team, and you have at least a half-full roster you shouldn't leave. It's not fair to either side. I gave that little anecdote about going through The Academy six times to illustrate the difference between veterans and noobs no matter how much isk, or sp they have. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 381	Posted - 2015.10.27 06:26:00 - [64] - Quote Kail Mako wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: (barring the first) I... umm. Who do you think we are talking about when we say 'new players'? (not that I'm for this whole match-leaving idea, more just maybe not throwing new players into matches comprised of 90% well established players, or if we have to do that maybe not adding a 90% TTK disadvantage to them while they're trying to learn the game) You totally and utterly failed to see the point of the post....... The point is that when you're a new player you're going to have trouble, but you still need to stick it out so you can get better. If you're playing on a team, and you have at least a half-full roster you shouldn't leave. It's not fair to either side. I gave that little anecdote about going through The Academy six times to illustrate the difference between veterans and noobs no matter how much isk, or sp they have. Edit: Also, I must admit that I'm not familiar with the term: TTK. Go figure, me being a "veteran" and all. (Time To Kill. A new player playing the same class as a vet (say assault) will need to land 90% more rounds to come out on top in that engagement. You can read the link in my signature to get a better idea.) New players expect to have trouble learning a new game. It's part of the challenge. But with the current playerbase of Dust, what new players experience is just cruel. While they're trying to learn all the things that they'd expect to learn in a new FPS (guns, map, etc) the best way to measure if they've actually learned something is when they start racking some kills up. Except we don't really let them. We've got this extra layer of 'new player experience' that puts them at a significant stat disadvantage. Not a skill disadvantage like they'd expect to have. Actual stats. Can you think of any other PvP games that does that to new players? 'OK here's our game, here's a bunch of stuff to learn and oh by the way most of the players you'll be going up against will have much more HP and do much more DPS than you.' No wonder we can't keep any new players. As a nice side effect, the longer we spend not getting new players, the worse the situation is going to get. Vets will stick around gathering ISK and SP to further improve their stats and the gap just gets bigger and bigger for each new player decides to try Dust. Something is killing new player retention.
Ydubbs81 RND Ancient Exiles. Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 4	Posted - 2015.10.27 07:18:00 - [65] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing Name one veteran who had to start while the common merc had upto 100mil SP? Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now.. The whole "back in my day, we didn't have things handed to us like these kids today" is total BS... Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. Stop crying....back in the day it was harder than it is now. Suits and gear cost more ISK, there were no APEX fits. You didn't have nearly as much hp as we do today and the weapons hit harder. Weaponry skill used to give 10% damage to all handheld weapons, damage mods used to do 10% damage, and all of the weapons used to put out more damage per bullet, much more. You want to talk sp??? The weekly cap was 195K and you were only allowed one booster! Nowadays, weekly cap is 750K and you can stack triple passive and active boosters plus instant boosters for those really high wp matches! Ask a vet how long it used to take to get one racial proto suit. You can probably have a suit and a weapon fully decked out in a little over a week now. The "vets" that the OP is talking about is pretty much you guys now. Most of the real vets have long been gone before they've ever hit anything near 100M sp. "Bring out mass drivers & jump around goddamit" Check RND out here
ShamelessALT Ametat Security Amarr Empire 124	Posted - 2015.10.27 07:35:00 - [66] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: TheD1CK wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing Name one veteran who had to start while the common merc had upto 100mil SP? Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now.. The whole "back in my day, we didn't have things handed to us like these kids today" is total BS... Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. Stop crying....back in the day it was harder than it is now. Suits and gear cost more ISK, there were no APEX fits. You didn't have nearly as much hp as we do today and the weapons hit harder. Weaponry skill used to give 10% damage to all handheld weapons, damage mods used to do 10% damage, and all of the weapons used to put out more damage per bullet, much more. You want to talk sp??? The weekly cap was 195K and you were only allowed one booster! Nowadays, weekly cap is 750K and you can stack triple passive and active boosters plus instant boosters for those really high wp matches! Ask a vet how long it used to take to get one racial proto suit. You can probably have a suit and a weapon fully decked out in a little over a week now. The "vets" that the OP is talking about is pretty much you guys now. Most of the real vets have long been gone before they've ever hit anything near 100M sp. If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 382	Posted - 2015.10.27 08:10:00 - [67] - Quote ShamelessALT wrote: If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... It's interesting that everyone saying things are easier now are completely ignoring just how many other new players they had the luxury of going up against when they were new too. Like, not a single one even acknowledges it. A couple of little improvements here and there doesn't mean squat when you're a new player being thrown to the wolf pack that is the current playerbase. Something is killing new player retention.
Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 131	Posted - 2015.10.27 10:55:00 - [68] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: ShamelessALT wrote: If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... It's interesting that everyone saying things are easier now are completely ignoring just how many other new players they had the luxury of going up against when they were new too. Like, not a single one even acknowledges it. A couple of little improvements here and there doesn't mean squat when you're a new player being thrown to the wolf pack that is the current playerbase. That's where I come in. I joined when this game was already somewhere around a year old. I faced the hardships of lower HP, higher damage, a lower weekly SP cap, the nonexistence of rail and combat rifles, and I was constantly broke. Simultaneously, most of the playerbase probably already had at least one fit that was full proto. Not once have I rage quit a battle. I took my stomps like a good little boy, and now I'm here. Even today my favorite fit is an ADV Cal assault with two ADV flaylocks. I've gotten to the point where I'll face a full squad of proto stompers, and laugh as I go 24/7. You can't just leave. You need to practice getting around them. If you never face the stompers you'll never learn how to deal with them. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 298	Posted - 2015.10.27 11:09:00 - [69] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: ShamelessALT wrote: If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... It's interesting that everyone saying things are easier now are completely ignoring just how many other new players they had the luxury of going up against when they were new too. Like, not a single one even acknowledges it. A couple of little improvements here and there doesn't mean squat when you're a new player being thrown to the wolf pack that is the current playerbase. They are not little improvements, they are massive changes from when we started. You think starting now is harder than when Imps could q sync pubs? You are wrong. A noob today has a much better chance going up against turd rock, or glory, or any of the pubstar corps than against q sync'd squads of actually good players. Higher SP gains mean you are stuck in basic for a lot less time than the old system. Missions add even more SP on top. And of course, being able to triple stack boosters makes that initial progress even faster. Gear changes matter as well. The vets come from a time when a basic suit had far fewer slots to go along with the gimped fitting. Now, you can take a basic gal logi and with a couple of fitting mods run all proto gear, an adv Weapon and a not horrible tank. On a dirt cheap suit. There is no doubt that new bros still need help, but to attempt to forward your argument that it is worse today than it was is blatantly false. Stop it. Unless you want people to ignore you because of your refusal to accept facts and plug your ears until everyone comes around to your way of thinking, in which case carry on. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.27 11:53:00 - [70] - Quote So many try to defend the proto advantage... How can you act like being in a fitting with more hp, along with a stronger weapon is not an advantage ?? As I said, skill comes into it in some cases.. even if we balanced gear usage.. some mercs will still murder anything, but that is no reason not to balance it. At this stage, the mercs derping in starter fits are more common in game than mercs with high SP.. if we want any chance of retaining these players SOMETHING needs to change.. Regardless if I am spewing hyperbole or not, I play the game and see the issue in gameplay. I run proto a lot usually out of laziness to make more fittings, sometimes to combat a squad on the enemy team and each time a low SP toon crosses my path I earn an EZ 50WP barely even aiming as I spray him and get the kill.. it is no fun for me as I enjoy battling tougher opponents and it is certainly no fun for the new player/low SP toons. That's the main point in this thread, there is no support for low SP mercs.. and it is getting to the point where they are better off leaving battles that are stacked with tryhards.. as staying will rarely net more than 200k and is not worth it. So while we all have an opinion here, I think we can agree SOMETHING needs to change. ffs Kalante warned you 2 years ago and people are still disputing whether it is an issue or not SOONtm

Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 382	Posted - 2015.10.27 11:55:00 - [71] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: ShamelessALT wrote: If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... It's interesting that everyone saying things are easier now are completely ignoring just how many other new players they had the luxury of going up against when they were new too. Like, not a single one even acknowledges it. A couple of little improvements here and there doesn't mean squat when you're a new player being thrown to the wolf pack that is the current playerbase. They are not little improvements, they are massive changes from when we started. You think starting now is harder than when Imps could q sync pubs? You are wrong. A noob today has a much better chance going up against turd rock, or glory, or any of the pubstar corps than against q sync'd squads of actually good players. Higher SP gains mean you are stuck in basic for a lot less time than the old system. Missions add even more SP on top. And of course, being able to triple stack boosters makes that initial progress even faster. Gear changes matter as well. The vets come from a time when a basic suit had far fewer slots to go along with the gimped fitting. Now, you can take a basic gal logi and with a couple of fitting mods run all proto gear, an adv Weapon and a not horrible tank. On a dirt cheap suit. There is no doubt that new bros still need help, but to attempt to forward your argument that it is worse today than it was is blatantly false. Stop it. Unless you want people to ignore you because of your refusal to accept facts and plug your ears until everyone comes around to your way of thinking, in which case carry on. I've been trying to get an accurate perspective on what things were like a year or two ago (rather than just relying on what we all remember, which has been very conflicted so far) by watching some old youtube videos of pubs and taking some numbers down. It's a long process but so far I've got data on over 1000 kills. It's showing me that kills with MLT+STD were just as common as kills with ADV, and kills with proto were ~2.5x less likely to happen than either. As a ratio it'd look like MLT+STD:ADV:PRO - 5:5:2. I'm using these numbers as an indicator of the time that the players had been in Dust and I dunno man, it really doesn't seem like the pubs that new players get today. I think I might need to make myself a bit clearer about what I mean in 'new player'. I'm talking about the guys that haven't decided if they'll stick with the game yet. Like that first week or two they play where they're working out if they like it or not. Complex mods are just a shadow in the distance, they don't care that it's technically possible to take a basic gal logi and with a couple of fitting mods run all proto gear because they can't run proto gear yet. Weekly SP cap may as well be 2m, they're not going to earn enough WPs to take advantage of it. Anyway, I respect your position. We're coming unstuck at 'was the playerbase more stacked against new players a year or two ago than it is now?' I say no, you say yes. It's a hard thing to quantify but I'm trying. Also, I jumped in this thread partway through because of some replies, not to support what OP said. That has to be the most stupid reaction to a problem I've ever heard. Something is killing new player retention.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.27 12:03:00 - [72] - Quote Exactly!!! It is a terrible idea and will ruin even more battles for all players involved.. Why is this a good thing ?? Because when there is not a single battle to be found, CCP may finally do something. This is an issue since I started playing, while there have been perks added for NPE, nothing has really made a change to what actually goes on in the battle, we have all suggested fixes, nothing has been done. So I agree with a new tactic BURN IT DOWN!! Vets think it's ok to stomp like crazy because "it's a game, I want fun" "git gud" "blablabla" But I cannot justify a few players having fun at the cost of everyone else in the battle, it's bad gameplay. Next time you finish a battle, look at the top 5 on each team.. and tell me how many outside that had "fun" SOONtm
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 940	Posted - 2015.10.27 12:44:00 - [73] - Quote Last night, acq, 16v9. My team made the push, berries left, off to the redline they went. So me and my corpmate called an LAV and just joyrided the map hacking obj when it moved. Then I watched the killfeed.... GRR, agimus, expcr, duvolle, etc etc.... So I check player board... Remaining enemy team is 8 strong with 100% starter corps. So these well known 'vets' were stomping 'new' players to death in the redline with top tier gear. I can't even drop decent feedback/input after telling that story. Calgon take me away.. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
postapo wastelander Corrosive Synergy RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.10.27 13:01:00 - [74] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel. I was newb too. I went trough helvete too. I did have nervewrecking moments too. BUT I never had issues with protos. I never had issues with groups. I never had issues with any nonsence. ERGO Why they leaving the game? Because they want to leave!! Thats their fault/their decission!! *"Completion by direct action"* `Forge syndicalist of Corrosive Synergy`
Mad Syringe Dead Man's Game 827	Posted - 2015.10.27 13:42:00 - [75] - Quote I'm a scrub, a Masshole since day one, and I run Apex 99% of the time in pubs. I usually push as good as I can, and try to support the noobs with links and scans. However, I think the biggest Problem is experienced players leaving when they see any kind of opposition, that prevents them from kill farming militia suits. I agree, that noobs should be seperated and Vets leaving should be put in the same battle over and over again, until it's over. If you don't like the gtf out of here. my 2ct
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.27 13:57:00 - [76] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: ShamelessALT wrote: If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... It's interesting that everyone saying things are easier now are completely ignoring just how many other new players they had the luxury of going up against when they were new too. Like, not a single one even acknowledges it. A couple of little improvements here and there doesn't mean squat when you're a new player being thrown to the wolf pack that is the current playerbase. I was battle tested against Imperfects and PFBHz when my merc was growing up. In a Minmatar f*cking scout when the suit was utter trash, in the slayer logi and Tac AR meta. Trust me, you guys have it much easier Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.27 14:00:00 - [77] - Quote Devadander wrote: Last night, acq, 16v16. My team made the push, berries left, off to the redline they went. So me and my corpmate called an LAV and just joyrided the map hacking obj when it moved. Then I watched the killfeed.... GRR, agimus, expcr, duvolle, etc etc.... So I check player board... Remaining enemy team is 8 strong with 100% starter corps. So these well known 'vets' were stomping 'new' players to death in the redline with top tier gear. I can't even drop decent feedback/input after telling that story. Calgon take me away.. Acquisition is a horrible game mode, along with Domination and Ambush. All of them need a mercy mechanic, along with Skirmish. Give the other team the option to surrender. When you see people redlining, its because they want to do something other than sit on their asses until the MCC timer ticks. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Mad Syringe Dead Man's Game 828	Posted - 2015.10.27 14:13:00 - [78] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Shaun Iwairo wrote: ShamelessALT wrote: If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking... It's interesting that everyone saying things are easier now are completely ignoring just how many other new players they had the luxury of going up against when they were new too. Like, not a single one even acknowledges it. A couple of little improvements here and there doesn't mean squat when you're a new player being thrown to the wolf pack that is the current playerbase. I was battle tested against Imperfects and PFBHz when my merc was growing up. In a Minmatar f*cking scout when the suit was utter trash, in the slayer logi and Tac AR meta. Trust me, you guys have it much easier I have to disagree Kaisar, back in the days, proto was not the go to suit in pubs, there where protos, but not the whole enemy team. And if said protos got killed, they usually came back in advanced suits, to cut their losses. Right now,. If you start into the game, you run into a wall of black suits, that all insta gib you before you even see them. Noobs skill into the wrong things, because nobody tells them that the built in wall hack of dust is the most important thing to skill into when you start your carreer (precision, range, and damps). But since they don't know about that, they skill into weaponst and black suits, and get anihilated anyway. Whatever, the diskussion is worthless anyway, since this game is going nowhere. So happy milking the noobs to all vets!
Immortal John Ripper 29	Posted - 2015.10.27 14:34:00 - [79] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Coordination and ~~actual skill~~ Better Gear + More HP > SP. FTFY. Winning after getting shot in the back by a newbro who got the drop on you isn't "skill". It also isn't "teamwork" and it certainly isn't "tactical". So I can just stick any dumbass in a proto suit with a 60 mil SP toon and watch him go to town? Shotty, its the same in EVE. You give a new player a large SP toon with big ships he doesn't know how to use and he will get blown up and laughed at. Same here in Dust. Wearing a proto suit does not magically make you some amazing freaking player. Some of these guys don't even know how to properly fit a fucking suit for christs sake. RANT INCOMING, NOT DIRECTED AT YOU SHOTTY. List of tools that people have to LEARN to be good at FPS: Prefiring, Reload Canceling, Strafing, Burst Firing, Tactical Awareness, Map Knowledge, Map Control, Victory Conditions, AND THE LIST GOES ON. EVERY SINGLE FIGHT that I've had fun in, fights that had me fighting to the wire to try and pull out the victory had people who knew how to work together. They didn't even have to wear proto, all they need to be is co-ordinated. PUSH points together. Find, Fix, Flank, Finish. Know how to stonewall a defense, with proper heavy support and logistics. Uplink control, proper scanning, hacking the right points when you need to. Seriously. The list of tools that make a team GREAT is far longer than just "Wear Proto". Almost everything that make these "Proto Stompers" great are things that they LEARNED over playing the game. "But Ghost, you keep talking about the team, I'm talking about individual players." STFU. Where do you think the team STARTS from dumbass? It starts with YOU. What are YOU doing to contribute to the team? YOU have to know that the team needs more uplinks. YOU have to be the one to whip out the logi when you see heavies bunching up to defend. YOU have to be the one to know that you need that outside point if you want to win the match. YOU have learn how to PLAY. THE. GAME. I've tried SO HARD over the years to try and teach people how to play the game. I've written guides. I've given fitting advice. I've offered to squad with people. I was even in a freaking MENTOR corp for scouts for a while. You want to know how many people have ever taken me up on the squadding and playing with me advice? NOBODY. I've come to the sad conclusion that the vast majority of people in this game don't want to improve. They want to drag everyone down to their level. And if they can't, they'll remove whatever they think is "cheating them" of their victory. I don't know why I'm surprised. Real life is full of people like this too. Why the hell should it be different for a video game? Does this mean that newbies need to get stomped into oblivion? Hell no. Are there things we can do to improve the experience? Hell yes. But blaming all of your problems on the fucking GEAR they're running will get you NOWHERE. More than half of the people complaining need to step back, take a long ass look at how they play the game, and start noticing that most of their issues in game lie between the controller and chair. bro... i could have saved you alot of time and told you the truth from the start. You wasted your life all because you did not pay attentions to the teachings of GJR. Catmerc: CCP's new brand manager: https://youtu.be/Nv7qhXLyM
General John Ripper 29	Posted - 2015.10.27 14:34:00 - [80] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Coordination and ~~actual skill~~ Better Gear + More HP > SP. FTFY. Winning after getting shot in the back by a newbro who got the drop on you isn't "skill". It also isn't "teamwork" and it certainly isn't "tactical". So I can just stick any dumbass in a proto suit with a 60 mil SP toon and watch him go to town? Shotty, its the same in EVE. You give a new player a large SP toon with big ships he doesn't know how to use and he will get blown up and laughed at. Same here in Dust. Wearing a proto suit does not magically make you some amazing freaking player. Some of these guys don't even know how to properly fit a fucking suit for christs sake. RANT INCOMING, NOT DIRECTED AT YOU SHOTTY. List of tools that people have to LEARN to be good at FPS: Prefiring, Reload Canceling, Strafing, Burst Firing, Tactical Awareness, Map Knowledge, Map Control, Victory Conditions, AND THE LIST GOES ON. EVERY SINGLE FIGHT that I've had fun in, fights that had me fighting to the wire to try and pull out the victory had people who knew how to work together. They didn't even have to wear proto, all they need to be is co-ordinated. PUSH points together. Find, Fix, Flank, Finish. Know how to stonewall a defense, with proper heavy support and logistics. Uplink control, proper scanning, hacking the right points when you need to. Seriously. The list of tools that make a team GREAT is far longer than just "Wear Proto". Almost everything that make these "Proto Stompers" great are things that they LEARNED over playing the game. "But Ghost, you keep talking about the team, I'm talking about individual players." STFU. Where do you think the team STARTS from dumbass? It starts with YOU. What are YOU doing to contribute to the team? YOU have to know that the team needs more uplinks. YOU have to be the one to whip out the logi when you see heavies bunching up to defend. YOU have to be the one to know that you need that outside point if you want to win the match. YOU have learn how to PLAY. THE. GAME. I've tried SO HARD over the years to try and teach people how to play the game. I've written guides. I've given fitting advice. I've offered to squad with people. I was even in a freaking MENTOR corp for scouts for a while. You want to know how many people have ever taken me up on the squadding and playing with me advice? NOBODY. I've come to the sad conclusion that the vast majority of people in this game don't want to improve. They want to drag everyone down to their level. And if they can't, they'll remove whatever they think is "cheating them" of their victory. I don't know why I'm surprised. Real life is full of people like this too. Why the hell should it be different for a video game? Does this mean that newbies need to get stomped into oblivion? Hell no. Are there things we can do to improve the experience? Hell yes. But blaming all of your problems on the fucking GEAR they're running will get you NOWHERE. More than half of the people complaining need to step back, take a long ass look at how they play the game, and start noticing that most of their issues in game lie between the controller and chair. bro... i could have saved you alot of time and told you the truth from the start. You wasted your life all because you did not pay attentions to the teachings of GJR. Catmerc: CCP's new brand manager: https://youtu.be/Nv7qhXLyM

Cesar Geronimo DUST University Ivy League 127	Posted - 2015.10.27 15:17:00 - [81] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel. +1... I learned long ago that there's nothing 'noble' about charging into a blender...
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.10.27 15:25:00 - [82] - Quote I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading. Search "KEROBPO" for list of bpos for sale.
Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 561	Posted - 2015.10.27 16:17:00 - [83] - Quote I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 17:25:00 - [84] - Quote Travis Stanush wrote: I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? Do you think its better? As in we have more new players trying and staying with the game?
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 17:26:00 - [85] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. I mean, you could run very comparable equipment/mod set ups of lower tier everything... But to say you "cannot" run anything but proto is just not true.
CUSE TOWN333 Capital Acquisitions LLC 3	Posted - 2015.10.27 17:27:00 - [86] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. forget leaving matchs you should just delete the whole game puss actions speak louder then words.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.10.27 17:32:00 - [87] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. I mean, you could run very comparable equipment/mod set ups of lower tier everything... But to say you "cannot" run anything but proto is just not true. He's not wrong. A major factor in why I run proto more than cheap fits is due to the fittings space, personally I avoid more than 10 fits in a attempt at reducing the amount of crap that has to load.. in hopes that it effects LAG.. And when I do make cheap fits, they are deleted anytime I do a PC.. and I am too lazy to re-make them I have always wanted to be able to side scroll on fittings menus to Pro/Adv/Std.. but not anytime SOONtm I reckon SOONtm
Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 561	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:16:00 - [88] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? Do you think its better? As in we have more new players trying and staying with the game? It is better. If you go back through the forums you will see countless threads decrying stompers. Many of the changes listed in this thread were in direct response to the **** poor NPE. No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:18:00 - [89] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. I mean, you could run very comparable equipment/mod set ups of lower tier everything... But to say you "cannot" run anything but proto is just not true. You missed the point. I would <3LOVE<3 to run in: - STD/MLT freebies - ADV cost-efficient all-rounders - PC gear with limited LP store weps and EQs - Try out those officer suits (a week ago I actually fitted and ran my first ever officer suit run - that's a lot because I've had those Balac Ck.0s for two months shy of three years) So the point is my PRO fittings fill up the roster (with now two cheaper narrow use APEXes). If I try to create another setup you suggested, upon hitting the first 'create new' I get the message "maximum fitting amount reached". And yes, I do refuse to recreate my tuned fittings daily, and I refuse to spend 2mins in match rebuilding a higher/lower tier suit idle in the MCC. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading. Search "KEROBPO" for list of bpos for sale.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:18:00 - [90] - Quote Travis Stanush wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? Do you think its better? As in we have more new players trying and staying with the game? It is better. If you go back through the forums you will see countless threads decrying stompers. Many of the changes listed in this thread were in direct response to the **** poor NPE. So you're saying there are more new players joining Dust and staying with the game more so now than ever? I'm confused.

Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:21:00 - [91] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. I mean, you could run very comparable equipment/mod set ups of lower tier everything... But to say you "cannot" run anything but proto is just not true. You missed the point. I would <3LOVE<3 to run in: - STD/MLT freebies - ADV cost-efficient all-rounders - PC gear with limited LP store weps and EQs - Try out those officer suits (a week ago I actually fitted and ran my first ever officer suit run - that's a lot because I've had those Balac Ck.0s for two months shy of three years) So the point is my PRO fittings fill up the roster (with now two cheaper narrow use APEXes). If I try to create another setup you suggested, upon hitting the first 'create new' I get the message "maximum fitting amount reached". And yes, I do refuse to recreate my tuned fittings daily, and I refuse to spend 2mins in match rebuilding a higher/lower tier suit idle in the MCC. Well I thought it was more complex of an issue than " I won't delete or make room for any type of fit other than proto".
Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 561	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:28:00 - [92] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? Do you think its better? As in we have more new players trying and staying with the game? It is better. If you go back through the forums you will see countless threads decrying stompers. Many of the changes listed in this thread were in direct response to the **** poor NPE. So you're saying there are more new players joining Dust and staying with the game more so now than ever? I'm confused. Obviously not in total cause the game is on a dying console but as a percentage I would say yes. This game requires time invested for you to be any good but, when you get pissed and ragequit after two matches well.... you get the idea No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
V1RONXSS X-SENSE Security 81	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:45:00 - [93] - Quote Well.. i playing from closed beta allways solo, but still using proto rare, but still using it because i just have a lot of them ready in stock and anyways i play regardless whoever whatever thinks.. trying going mostly advanced though. And anyways, as solo player, if i see 3-5 reds moving my way/engaging and no matter how hard i try i will get shotgunned from behind, just a game of course, but im here not for entertaining you, i'm here for entertain myself, so after going 0/6 and so on, i just leave. cya on the BUTTLEFIELD. The "Chiki Briki v Damki" Starter Pack.
Worthless Target Extra Padding 48	Posted - 2015.10.27 18:55:00 - [94] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to bettfodderer the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. Yes, that's exactly why new players should stay. They aren't supposed to kill, their supposed to pad KDrs. there only cannon fodder for the players who actually deserve the kills. Those players being the ones that can and do run full proto or higher all the time. If you are a new player, or just don't run proto, then put on one of your starter fits, and get as many deaths as you can. Embrace the stomp
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 19:01:00 - [95] - Quote Travis Stanush wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? Do you think its better? As in we have more new players trying and staying with the game? It is better. If you go back through the forums you will see countless threads decrying stompers. Many of the changes listed in this thread were in direct response to the **** poor NPE. So you're saying there are more new players joining Dust and staying with the game more so now than ever? I'm confused. Obviously not in total cause the game is on a dying console but as a percentage I would say yes. This game requires time invested for you to be any good but, when you get pissed and ragequit after two matches well.... you get the idea Well here's some numbers, you be the judge. Looks as if its dropped off and is continuing a steady decline. http://eve-offline.net/?server=dust
Regnier Feros Dead Man's Game 994	Posted - 2015.10.27 19:07:00 - [96] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Devadander wrote: Last night, acq, 16v16. My team made the push, berries left, off to the redline they went. So me and my corpmate called an LAV and just joyrided the map hacking obj when it moved. Then I watched the killfeed.... GRR, agimus, expcr, duvolle, etc etc.... So I check player board... Remaining enemy team is 8 strong with 100% starter corps. So these well known 'vets' were stomping 'new' players to death in the redline with top tier gear. I can't even drop decent feedback/input after telling that story. Calgon take me away.. Acquisition is a horrible game mode, along with Domination and Ambush. All of them need a mercy mechanic, along with Skirmish. Give the other team the option to surrender. When you see people redlining, its because they want to do something other than sit on their asses until the MCC timer ticks. +1 mercy mechanic yes! I LIKE PIE
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.27 19:11:00 - [97] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. I mean, you could run very comparable equipment/mod set ups of lower tier everything... But to say you "cannot" run anything but proto is just not true. You missed the point. I would <3LOVE<3 to run in: - STD/MLT freebies - ADV cost-efficient all-rounders - PC gear with limited LP store weps and EQs - Try out those officer suits (a week ago I actually fitted and ran my first ever officer suit run - that's a lot because I've had those Balac Ck.0s for two months shy of three years) So the point is my PRO fittings fill up the roster (with now two cheaper narrow use APEXes). If I try to create another setup you suggested, upon hitting the first 'create new' I get the message "maximum fitting amount reached". And yes, I do refuse to recreate my tuned fittings daily, and I refuse to spend 2mins in match rebuilding a higher/lower tier suit idle in the MCC. Well I thought it was more complex of an issue than " I won't delete or make room for any type of fit other than proto". Some of us play PC on a regular basis and need all those fittings regularly. If I'm not in a PC suit, I'm in an Apex. And I only have two apex suits to run, my Min Assault and Scout. Two slots is all I will devote to pubs. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 19:24:00 - [98] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player. And no increase in max fittings is to be expected. So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery. I mean, you could run very comparable equipment/mod set ups of lower tier everything... But to say you "cannot" run anything but proto is just not true. You missed the point. I would <3LOVE<3 to run in: - STD/MLT freebies - ADV cost-efficient all-rounders - PC gear with limited LP store weps and EQs - Try out those officer suits (a week ago I actually fitted and ran my first ever officer suit run - that's a lot because I've had those Balac Ck.0s for two months shy of three years) So the point is my PRO fittings fill up the roster (with now two cheaper narrow use APEXes). If I try to create another setup you suggested, upon hitting the first 'create new' I get the message "maximum fitting amount reached". And yes, I do refuse to recreate my tuned fittings daily, and I refuse to spend 2mins in match rebuilding a higher/lower tier suit idle in the MCC. Well I thought it was more complex of an issue than " I won't delete or make room for any type of fit other than proto". Some of us play PC on a regular basis and need all those fittings regularly. If I'm not in a PC suit, I'm in an Apex. And I only have two apex suits to run, my Min Assault and Scout. Two slots is all I will devote to pubs. Yeah no, I get it. I just thought there might have been a pg/cpu issue or something. But I get it, its just something you don't want to do. Like how some people just won't run anything but proto even if they have additional fitting slots. It's kinda like saying "yeah I see a solution to the problem but I'm still not gonna do anything about it, because it inconveniences me." Which is all cool, freewill and America and stuff but its not a different mentality than those refusing to stop stomping. It's just a different excuse. If being inconvenienced is grounds not to change, then why would anyone do anything ever unless it was purely beneficial to themselves?
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 299	Posted - 2015.10.27 19:26:00 - [99] - Quote Expecting altruism out of people playing a pvp game is naive. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 491	Posted - 2015.10.27 19:40:00 - [100] - Quote It's nice not having to read your posts anymore Press. I still have to see your name and that you replied, but it is SO much better than having to even try and disseminate the garbage you post. I don't think I've seen a single post from you that isn't a troll. Good thing I don't see them at all any more! Again, I don't think leaving games is a great tactic or anything but it is kind of a last resort.

Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 561	Posted - 2015.10.27 20:31:00 - [101] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: ] Well here's some numbers, you be the judge. Looks as if its dropped off and is continuing a steady decline. http://eve-offline.net/?server=dust I believe that graph would attest to the fact that the game is no a console that will stop receiving support sometime in the next year and the long term bugs/ balance issues that this game has experienced. It speaks nothing about the NPE which has objectively gotten better in terms of how quickly a new player can earn enough skill points to compete at a reasonable level. But nice try moving the goal post there. No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 493	Posted - 2015.10.27 20:39:00 - [102] - Quote Travis Stanush wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: ] Well here's some numbers, you be the judge. Looks as if its dropped off and is continuing a steady decline. http://eve-offline.net/?server=dust I believe that graph would attest to the fact that the game is no a console that will stop receiving support sometime in the next year and the long term bugs/ balance issues that this game has experienced. It speaks nothing about the NPE which has objectively gotten better in terms of how quickly a new player can earn enough skill points to compete at a reasonable level. But nice try moving the goal post there. Ok but why then would less players be joining and staying if the game is easier than ever for new players? I mean sure they can acquire more SP faster these days, but what if you literally can't take advantage of that due to gameplay issues?
Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 561	Posted - 2015.10.27 20:49:00 - [103] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Travis Stanush wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: ] Well here's some numbers, you be the judge. Looks as if its dropped off and is continuing a steady decline. http://eve-offline.net/?server=dust I believe that graph would attest to the fact that the game is no a console that will stop receiving support sometime in the next year and the long term bugs/ balance issues that this game has experienced. It speaks nothing about the NPE which has objectively gotten better in terms of how quickly a new player can earn enough skill points to compete at a reasonable level. But nice try moving the goal post there. Ok but why then would less players be joining and staying if the game is easier than ever for new players? I mean sure they can acquire more SP faster these days, but what if you literally can't take advantage of that due to gameplay issues? Why would you begin to play a game that requires a large time investment on a console with less than a year left? Especially when there is no news of a update to a new(er) system? No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.27 22:43:00 - [104] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Winning after getting shot in the back by a newbro who got the drop on you isn't "skill". It also isn't "teamwork" and it certainly isn't "tactical". :: snip :: RANT INCOMING :: snip :: Ghost, I completely agree that there's more to it than gear. There are dozens of different factors which play into the outcome of a given engagement; my point is that the gear factor should not play a bigger part than other factors, such as player skill, planning, coordination, etc. When I get outplayed by a newbro, I'm of the opinion that the newbro should have better than fair odds of coming out on top. I don't find that this is the case today, especially when I'm running high-end, high-hitpoint loadouts. I'm not suggesting that newbros be given piles of free ISK or SP, and I'm certainly not advocating against their learning to use teamwork or employing sound strategies/tactics. I'm suggesting that we acknowledge the effects of power creep for what they are and -- when and where necessary -- narrow the TTK Gap which separates high-end loadouts from their lower-end counterparts. The specifics on how we might go about doing that is good material for a different thread. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Ayuzawa 21	Posted - 2015.10.27 23:11:00 - [105] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel. 1. Not all vets use proto. 2. You do not need proto to "gitgud". I am a vet and I don't ALWAYS use proto. You can get a lot of things done in advanced suits (Even blueprints; technically basic gear) and I actually prefer advanced gear. It's fun and for whatever weird reason I'm better in it; not to mention it costs a lot less isk. If I were you and was going to complain about anything it would be matchmaking and vets who run in squads trolling, farming kills, running proto together and effectively STOMPING. Also, I've been given a lot of crap for leaving battles. Personally, I don't care what anyone says about me, but if you're going to be leaving battles I would recommend you do it at the beginning of the match; that's definitely reasonable. Check the killboard when you get into the match and determine who you're up against and whether or not it's worth your time and money. As far as getting good goes, use your blueberries as shields; someone has to die and you have the power to make sure it's not you. Utilize cover, your radar, and your strengths. Situational awareness will get you more kills than your gun or gear could ever take credit for. FragThis
Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 132	Posted - 2015.10.28 01:23:00 - [106] - Quote Travis Stanush wrote: I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right? Oh yes, the NS/NC ambush stomps. Back when they all had SSDs, and could get in 6 proto tanks on the field before you even spawned. That's the environment my merc grew up in. I quickly learned that beating my head against that wave was stupid. I quickly learned that the best way to deal with it was to run for my life, and then come back once the fighting cooled down to pick off some reds. My playstyle is actually a product of the NPE back when I started. I'm interested in seeing the playstyles of the newbies. This experience will only serve to make the next wave of newbies even better. I'll be the first to admit that I've been absolutely trashed by players running basic, and even militia gear. If they want to get that good they need to jump into this trial by fire, not get scared and leave the battles. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
byte modal 275	Posted - 2015.10.28 01:41:00 - [107] - Quote This thread is entertaining. "I experienced the glass to be half empty. To help the next guy, let's be aware of that because clearly my glass is full now." "Well I experienced that glass half full, you dumb **. My opinion is FACT, fuktard and if you disagree? well because YOU!" In my OPINION (that's all any of you jackholes have, btw ...opinions), I don't see how a new player has it any easier starting out than we did. Any efficiencies added to weapons or suits have been applied across the board. The new player may have a better balance compared to the gear then, but that boost, relative to everyone else getting the same effect*, only keeps the current playing field at the same level---as it was relatively* the same back then. But but but they have higher caps!!! And access to proto sooner! And and and APEX!!! Sure, if the honest new player has any clue what any of that is, how to access it, or the wherewithal to survive the grind to earn the SP and ISK for it, ya maybe. And when I say grind, I don't mean the day-to-day chore of playing. I mean quite literally a meat grind, where the newb is the meat and the severe imbalance of proto/officer wearing players eagerly padding stats with those clearly of a lower class and experience level is the grinder. But all those factors have to play out for them to get to that place. Seeing K/d ratios at EOM screens can be quite ridiculous and discouraging. My experience only included the grind against good squad communication and at times Q-sync, but that wasn't constant and was dealt with in time. There were no proto-stomps because we were all still racing to GET proto. Following the lead made by some of the posts I'm seeing, my opinion is fact because I say it so. What's good for the goose and all.... Take that how you like. Regarding player retention due to a dying platform, eh. This platform has been dying since November 15, 2013. I am not saying that that detail is not a factor in the lack of player stability, but you ARE saying that it is the only one---or at least that new player experience is not a factor. It is a silly, narrow-minded, and rather ignorant assumption to use that as a sole metric to player retention and growth. Good luck to life if things are that black and white for you. Look. I'm of the mind that this game, and games like this, will only ever fill a niche market. That's good though, because 1) it's needed as there is a serious vacuum of complex (gear and skill progression) and pseudo unforgiving FPS shooters; and 2) the absolutely loyal fan/player base. Grind it because I did. Making it to that next level only makes the next level that much more gratifying. I promise. And I agree. ...to a point. The problem is that core progression mechanics are faulty. Period. EvE is unforgiving, and I love it for it; however, (and this is something people tend to willfully overlook) in EvE, 1.0 security space prevents the wanna-be "proto" from ganking the newbie frigates. At least not without consequences. There is no fleet waiting to station-camp your introductory mission runs. Oh, and the fact that EvE even has introductory missions to ... idunno, teach the new player wtf does what, how skill progression works, various ways on how to earn ISK, and how the different tiers of SEC space work with warnings to the risk and dangers of that SEC space... is something sorely missing in DUST to help the new player experience and transition. Moving to 0.0 is a choice. The EvE capsuler is not simply born there left to die or uninstall. But we don't have the player numbers to tier matches!!!! Wow. That's sort of the point of posts like this. Do something to encourage an influx of new players AND KEEP THEM. Catch-22, that. hm? But DUST is not EvE!! No **, Sherlock. And it's a far cry from, whimpering in the shadow of EvE. But DUST does have so much potential. Yet here we are: having players post sarcasm and territorial pissings at even the conversation of aiding NEW player retention---for whatever that solution may be. Go figure. Bitter Vet Syndrome:** Enjoy your empire of ...dust. Maybe it's for the best there are no announcements for LEGION or a port. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Lost Apollo Moose Knuckle Pros 198	Posted - 2015.10.28 01:45:00 - [108] - Quote I hate leaving a battle but i hate feedimg protobears even more. My armor is weak, but my shields are relentless. State 'Rasetsu' Assault Born - April 1, 2013
Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 978	Posted - 2015.10.28 02:33:00 - [109] - Quote This Dust 514 doesn't compare to the old Dust 514. When somebody said git gud scrub, you could actually sit down, calculate your mistakes, hone your skills, and learn Dust warfare. Now its a bunch of gamers who use the cheapest tactics while using forums to change metas for personal attempt at digital stardom. Like ChicagoCubs4Ever mutated; that guy sucked at other FPS games but somehow was a star here. Oh and Guitar Hero is awesome! Saying what's on people's minds
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.10.28 02:54:00 - [110] - Quote @ Ghost How do you explain the experinces of vets who make new characters? Everything between the controller and chair is the same. And yet, the experience is VASTLY different! If the gear and the NPE were optimal, there would be a minimal reduction in efficacy, but that is not the case. That should be a major hint to a man of science that something is wrong. When all else being equal, the same person on the same console with the same controller and internet connection can go from being relevant on a high SP toon to being utterly irrelevant on a new toon can be NOTHING other than the current gap in high end item/SP vs low end item/SP. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

Scrilllix Calmacht 27	Posted - 2015.10.28 04:01:00 - [111] - Quote [/quote] Go ahead and make a new character. Play the game. Come back and let us know how effective you felt. In a perfect game, your scenario works. In most games these days, its not nearly as easy as you make it out to seem. Most vets who have made a new toon come back saying "holy **** the TTK on new players is insane and the performance disparity to proto is far too great". Seriously take an hour or two on a new character and just Q pubs. Come back with an educated opinion rather than endless theory crafting. If any person is unwilling to do this, then you really should reserve your arguments to things you can actually speak to. [/quote] I did what you said and what I say is completely honest. It is most definitely harder to compete against other people who: -have more skill than you -have better gear than you -simply just out number you However, I am sill able to get very decent kill death ratios and I AM able to kill proto stompers. and again as mentioned before in this thread, all you need to do is abuse your positioning. I understand that the NPE is very bad. I was there and I hated it and it almost made me quit this game many years ago. Although once you start to realize that Dust 514 is more about positioning and tactical gameplay and not about suiciding into a wall of enemies, I believe that newer players will have a decent time against the Stronger opposition. I understand what you are saying though. Leavaing battle does avoid the problem of proto stompers, although the more games you leave, the more oppurtunities you let go. I have learn through hardship, that a team of proto stompers is not something to run for but to challenge myself to take as many down as possible. I just wish that newer players would take the time and just look ahead and not think aobut the SP and ISK. Yes you might lose your gear, yes you might rage and possibly quit, but new players will find a way to fight through this. I came from the era of Gallente Logi's stacking armor, OP AR's and DMG mods. Newer players are coming into and era with soo much more at their disposal. They just need to find what strategy works for them and once again abuse it with good positioning. I do like your thread though :) +1 The fall of the Berlin Wall had nothing to do with the collapse of Communism, but rather, a weekend project gone wrong.
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.10.28 04:09:00 - [112] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: This Dust 514 doesn't compare to the old Dust 514. When somebody said git gud scrub, you could actually sit down, calculate your mistakes, hone your skills, and learn Dust warfare. Now its a bunch of gamers who use the cheapest tactics while using forums to change metas for personal attempt at digital stardom. Like ChicagoCubs4Ever mutated; that guy sucked at other FPS games but somehow was a star here. Oh and Guitar Hero is awesome! That's funny. It's easy to talk sh*t about someone who led one of best corps in this game. He was also one of the best FC's hands down if not the best. It's a shame how he went about quitting dust but im sure he had reasons.
Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 132	Posted - 2015.10.28 04:14:00 - [113] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: This Dust 514 doesn't compare to the old Dust 514. When somebody said git gud scrub, you could actually sit down, calculate your mistakes, hone your skills, and learn Dust warfare. Now its a bunch of gamers who use the cheapest tactics while using forums to change metas for personal attempt at digital stardom. Like ChicagoCubs4Ever mutated; that guy sucked at other FPS games but somehow was a star here. Oh and Guitar Hero is awesome! That's funny. It's easy to talk sh*t about someone who led one of best corps in this game. He was also one of the best FC's hands down if not the best. It's a shame how he went about quitting dust. I bet this guy's definition of "the cheapest tactics" boil down to "any tactics I don't personally use." Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 390	Posted - 2015.10.28 04:14:00 - [114] - Quote Kail Mako wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: This Dust 514 doesn't compare to the old Dust 514. When somebody said git gud scrub, you could actually sit down, calculate your mistakes, hone your skills, and learn Dust warfare. Now its a bunch of gamers who use the cheapest tactics while using forums to change metas for personal attempt at digital stardom. Like ChicagoCubs4Ever mutated; that guy sucked at other FPS games but somehow was a star here. Oh and Guitar Hero is awesome! That's funny. It's easy to talk sh*t about someone who led one of best corps in this game. He was also one of the best FC's hands down if not the best. It's a shame how he went about quitting dust. I bet this guy's definition of "the cheapest tactics" boil down to "any tactics I don't personally use." lol 'this guy' Something is killing new player retention.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 497	Posted - 2015.10.28 06:53:00 - [115] - Quote Scrilllix wrote: I did what you said and what I say is completely honest. It is most definitely harder to compete against other people who: -have more skill than you -have better gear than you -simply just out number you However, I am sill able to get very decent kill death ratios and I AM able to kill proto stompers. and again as mentioned before in this thread, all you need to do is abuse your positioning. I understand that the NPE is very bad. I was there and I hated it and it almost made me quit this game many years ago. Although once you start to realize that Dust 514 is more about positioning and tactical gameplay and not about suiciding into a wall of enemies, I believe that newer players will have a decent time against the Stronger opposition. I understand what you are saying though. Leavaing battle does avoid the problem of proto stompers, although the more games you leave, the more oppurtunities you let go. I have learn through hardship, that a team of proto stompers is not something to run for but to challenge myself to take as many down as possible. I just wish that newer players would take the time and just look ahead and not think aobut the SP and ISK. Yes you might lose your gear, yes you might rage and possibly quit, but new players will find a way to fight through this. I came from the era of Gallente Logi's stacking armor, OP AR's and DMG mods. Newer players are coming into and era with soo much more at their disposal. They just need to find what strategy works for them and once again abuse it with good positioning. I do like your thread though :) +1 Think I ran into the other end of your Creodron Shotty earlier today! Thanks for the post and also getting some first hand experience, appreciate the info! You're a damn devil in your scout suit o7
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 497	Posted - 2015.10.28 07:01:00 - [116] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: @ Ghost How do you explain the experinces of vets who make new characters? Everything between the controller and chair is the same. And yet, the experience is VASTLY different! If the gear and the NPE were optimal, there would be a minimal reduction in efficacy, but that is not the case. That should be a major hint to a man of science that something is wrong. When all else being equal, the same person on the same console with the same controller and internet connection can go from being relevant on a high SP toon to being utterly irrelevant on a new toon the reason can be NOTHING other than the current gap in high end item/SP vs low end item/SP. We tried to present numbers and we were called scrubs for doing so. Original thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=218233
Scrilllix Calmacht 27	Posted - 2015.10.28 14:32:00 - [117] - Quote [/quote] Think I ran into the other end of your Creodron Shotty earlier today! Thanks for the post and also getting some first hand experience, appreciate the info! You're a damn devil in your scout suit o7[/quote] I think I remember that now you bring it up xD I appreciate your compliments on my scouting, as I have done it since I played this game. Isolating Specific targets to neutalize an area is my specialty as a scout and I take pride in using proper positioning to my advantage as a scout. Not suicide remoting or charging head first into a group of 5 enemies. see you on the battlefield o7 The fall of the Berlin Wall had nothing to do with the collapse of Communism, but rather, a weekend project gone wrong.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 14:41:00 - [118] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: @ Ghost How do you explain the experinces of vets who make new characters? Everything between the controller and chair is the same. And yet, the experience is VASTLY different! If the gear and the NPE were optimal, there would be a minimal reduction in efficacy, but that is not the case. That should be a major hint to a man of science that something is wrong. When all else being equal, the same person on the same console with the same controller and internet connection can go from being relevant on a high SP toon to being utterly irrelevant on a new toon the reason can be NOTHING other than the current gap in high end item/SP vs low end item/SP. Incorrect. I'm saying that the problem here is USER ERROR. Give a man all the tools in the world, if he doesn't know how to use them, he will be useless. New players are lots of ways to help them progress, but not to succeed. Dust needs better TUTORIALS for sure. The new players don't know how to play the game. They don't know the victory conditions. They don't know that uplinks are needed, that they can use various equipment to make them more effective. The current tutorial throws them in a match with a ton of other people who ALSO don't know what they're doing. They then TDM until the match ends. Then they get thrown out of academy, and to the wolves. They need better tutorials and a longer time in academy until they actually know how to play the game. As for the undelined: I have an alt that I used to skill caldari frames ages ago. He ran Advanced Caldari suits with properly distributed SP. I think I had around 4 Mil SP. I still trashed most the people I ran into. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 14:45:00 - [119] - Quote Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap between high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 984	Posted - 2015.10.28 14:57:00 - [120] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: This Dust 514 doesn't compare to the old Dust 514. When somebody said git gud scrub, you could actually sit down, calculate your mistakes, hone your skills, and learn Dust warfare. Now its a bunch of gamers who use the cheapest tactics while using forums to change metas for personal attempt at digital stardom. Like ChicagoCubs4Ever mutated; that guy sucked at other FPS games but somehow was a star here. Oh and Guitar Hero is awesome! That's funny. It's easy to talk sht about someone who led one of best corps in this game. He was also one of the best FC's hands down if not the best. It's a shame how he went about quitting dust. Yeah, some guy who screams at you who isn't your drill instructor or football coach, is a great FC. CC4E was an ****** and his people skills were even known to EVE pilots. Maybe how he quit Dust showed the merit of his character? The same way the majority praised Judge like the second coming and he turned out to be a fantastic addition to CPM? A great leader knows that greatness comes from servitude and respecting those who put their trust in their leadership. Saying what's on people's minds

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 15:08:00 - [121] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap between high-end and low-end loadouts. If TTK is the answer to everything, why isn't everyone running Gal Assaults with 1000 armor? Average TTK is higher for higher end suits, that's true. But they pay a premium for a very small bonus. For 4.4 Mil SP, you can get Cal Assault to 3, all relevant fittings to 3, and a fully fit advanced Cal Assault. Protofits still hasn't updated for Foxfour though :( Nonetheless, it will still be amazingly effective and only cost 50k. Has around 700 eHP. My fully fit CK.0 runs a similar build, and runs 837 eHP. Now, on paper 137 looks huge. But in reality, that is: 0.34 seconds of RR fire 0.25 seconds of AR fire 0.31 seocnds of ACR fire And my suit costs 174k. For an extra 120k, I can buy myself just under 4 tenths of a second extra durability. In a firefight, this normally will amount to jack sh*t, because that's around 2 shots. In a perfect environment, he has an advantage, but NOBODY fights perfectly in battle. What about that 1000 armor Gal Assault? He has no regen. Hit him, use cover, and outlast him. Nobody runs those fits because they're slow, easy to flank, and easy to tear down if you have a brain. Yeah, higher SP characters also have higher DPS, are faster, harder to scan etc. But in all honesty, against a competent opponent, they don't mean much. I have been killed countless times by an Apex suit with a RR because I was an idiot and caught out in the open. Or by an AR in CQC on a advanced gal assault. Even a half a second advantage on starting a fight negates the advantages of a proto suit. If you lose a fight you started that early, it probably didn't matter what suit he was running, you couldn't hit him, and he destroyed you. That's you getting schooled, not a product of the suit he was wearing. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:22:00 - [122] - Quote @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:38:00 - [123] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:39:00 - [124] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. That example though Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:57:00 - [125] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: That example though I almost responded to the one guy talking ish about how vets on new characters suck...lolol. You put a vet in the academy when everyone is on 'equal footing' sp and gear wise and you will see persuasive demonstrations of the influence game knowledge and FPS skill has on your aptitude at dust. Even when I left the academy on my alts/spy accounts I had no issues...That's why Dwater and Jenova and so many others of FA's a-team were able to still stand up to AE successfully despite having 3 mill...5 mill...7 mill sp. Running into PC matches vs the best in the game with advanced suits.. NPE will be influenced best IMO by adding avenues of integration for players in the community and intuitive improvements that allow players to grasp the larger concepts while baiting them to dig deeper in a way that isn't isn't cumbersome or overwhelming. Give the kittens milk not meat, but make sure they know where the smokehouse is out back if they decide they want more. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 17:18:00 - [126] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Even when I left the academy on my alts/spy accounts I had no issues...That's why Dwater and Jenova and so many others of FA's a-team were able to still stand up to AE successfully despite having 3 mill...5 mill...7 mill sp. Running into PC matches vs the best in the game with advanced suits.. It also gave rise to some of the most hilarious tactics I've ever seen. We couldn't deal with ADS's because if we switched HMG's to Forges, they would jump out with 2 or 3 slayer logi's and just start tearing up the ground. Our solution? Use cover to force them to get close, throw fluxes and shred them with HMG's I actually got my PC chops running the old min scout in those fights. Ran a damp and a speed with the old dB bonuses, tore people up with shotguns, smg's and nova knives. I miss running with Solaire, TTW, and B0rom1r Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 153	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:01:00 - [127] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:21:00 - [128] - Quote Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? Dropsuit Usage Rates
rpastry Dead Man's Game 316	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:23:00 - [129] - Quote Need to get rid of the enemy team display, as its full squads of vet fags deciding they don't like the look of the opposition and leaving right at the start that ruins most games. I'd take off enemy name tags in battle too, but keep the kill display. [Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:34:00 - [130] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? BS. I get around 400-500k from missions these days. You get a warbarge for another 120k free ISK, and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match. At 50k a suit, that gives you ~520k to start with, and 200k per match. If a newbie wants to play 5 matches, that gives him 1.52 Mil ISK to blow (And this is the LOW estimate. That's enough for 30 suits. That's 6 deaths a match in full ADV gear. For anyone doing decent, that's more than enough. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:44:00 - [131] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? BS. I get around 400-500k from missions these days. You get a warbarge for another 120k free ISK, and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match. At 50k a suit, that gives you ~520k to start with, and 200k per match. If a newbie wants to play 5 matches, that gives him 1.52 Mil ISK to blow (And this is the LOW estimate. That's enough for 30 suits. That's 6 deaths a match in full ADV gear. For anyone doing decent, that's more than enough. You think the average pub pay is 400-500k, Ghost? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:51:00 - [132] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match. You think the average pub pay is 400-500k, Ghost? lol I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 19:26:00 - [133] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? BS. I get around 400-500k from missions these days. You get a warbarge for another 120k free ISK, and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match. At 50k a suit, that gives you ~520k to start with, and 200k per match. If a newbie wants to play 5 matches, that gives him 1.52 Mil ISK to blow (And this is the LOW estimate. That's enough for 30 suits. That's 6 deaths a match in full ADV gear. For anyone doing decent, that's more than enough. You think the average pub pay is 400-500k, Ghost? I typically make 200-250k when placing 1st in Ambush and 125-175k when placing in the top half. Is it more likely that a given noob will place in the top or bottom half of the leaderboard? What do you think the bottom half makes? Re-read what I wrote and try again. Underlined for you convenience. And yes, making 200k per match is dead easy. Bring some uplinks and get some WP. Hack some installations. Bring a needle. You don't need to be a 20+ kill slayer to do decent in a pub. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 19:39:00 - [134] - Quote 80 clone Ambush, 12-16 players/team, ~6 deaths per player per match on average. At 40k-50k per advanced loadout, the average payout would need exceed 240-300k for the average merc to turn a profit. Pay rates halfway down the ambush leaderboard are no where near that. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.28 19:51:00 - [135] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 80 clone Ambush, 12-16 players/team, ~6 deaths per player per match on average. At 40k-50k per advanced loadout, the average payout would need exceed 240-300k for the average merc to turn a profit. Pay rates halfway down the ambush leaderboard are no where near that. 1.) Why are you playing ambush in anything but free suits? 2.) Read 1 again Seriously, its a horrible game mode. You will get farmed, or do the farming. Play skirmish if you actually want to make ISK using normal suits. The 150 clones + larger maps mean that you will typically live longer and more clones in total will be killed for each side. This gives you more ISK overall, and a higher WP average if you PTFO. Hell, I played one match as an assault with a needle. ADV needle with a defend order gives in the ballpark of 80 WP IIRC. It's 108 if you use a proto needle. And you're forgetting once again salvage, missions, and warbarge. There is SO much ISK you can get from matches, even going a little bit negative from time to time in match you can still pull a net positive. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 499	Posted - 2015.10.28 20:31:00 - [136] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? BS. I get around 400-500k from missions these days. You get a warbarge for another 120k free ISK, and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match. At 50k a suit, that gives you ~520k to start with, and 200k per match. If a newbie wants to play 5 matches, that gives him 1.52 Mil ISK to blow (And this is the LOW estimate. That's enough for 30 suits. That's 6 deaths a match in full ADV gear. For anyone doing decent, that's more than enough. My buddy had 21mil SP from starting a toon on release and never playing. So I got him skilled up into proto suits and weapons with some complex mods. Even if he goes positive he cannot keep up with the cost of his suit. He's my house mate so I have no problem giving him isk when we play togrther, but he definitely cannot sustain running proto unless he's playing extremely conservatively. And Ghost, you can theory craft all you like. Go make a new toon with fresh everything. Squad up with non newbs and queue for normal games. Try your half a second advantage on most proto suits, it doesn't happen like that. Where do you see just a half second advantage in any of these examples?
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 499	Posted - 2015.10.28 20:32:00 - [137] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit. Basic level player: Armor Plating I Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I +5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 0 Augmented Ammo 0 +15% damage vs armor Proto level player: Armor Plating 5 Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5 +25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 5 Augmented Ammo 5 +35% damage vs armor Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage? "But that's just the way of New Eden" This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to. I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?' I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem. I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers. Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has: 288 Shield HP 271 Armor HP and does: 24 HP/round damage to Shield 32.8 HP/round damage to Armor Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has: 335.1 Shield HP 314.5 Armor HP and does: 25.2 HP/round damage to shield 39.6 HP/round damage to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top. Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear. Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and; Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them: 372.5 Shield HP 347.5 Armor HP and they do: 27.3 HP/round to Shield 43.1 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top. Now things get nasty Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them: 407.7 Shield HP 402.5 Armor HP and they do: 30.45 HP/round to Shield 46.8 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top. I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon: For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.10.28 20:42:00 - [138] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: That example though I almost responded to the one guy talking ish about how vets on new characters suck...lolol. You put a vet in the academy when everyone is on 'equal footing' sp and gear wise and you will see persuasive demonstrations of the influence game knowledge and FPS skill has on your aptitude at dust. Even when I left the academy on my alts/spy accounts I had no issues...That's why Dwater and Jenova and so many others of FA's a-team were able to still stand up to AE successfully despite having 3 mill...5 mill...7 mill sp. Running into PC matches vs the best in the game with advanced suits.. NPE will be influenced best IMO by adding avenues of integration for players in the community and intuitive improvements that allow players to grasp the larger concepts while baiting them to dig deeper in a way that isn't isn't cumbersome or overwhelming. Give the kittens milk not meat, but make sure they know where the smokehouse is out back if they decide they want more. No where did I suggest that knowledge of the game was not a problem for new players. Nor did I suggest that vets couldn't go into the Academy and wreck shop. If you could point out any comments that you interpreted that way, I would be more than happy to clarify or amend my post to be more clear. None of that has anything to do with the fact that new players currently have a greater gap between them and a vet. Part of it is indeed knowledge. But a large part is also the SP gap, and the tiering of items such that when you compound that issue with Warbage advantages and the passive bonuses of the skills the SP confers, the gap becomes much larger than the gap many of us saw when we first start. Also, what did your characters do when they got out of the academy? Did you skill into a specific set up you knew would be viable at low SP levels? Tutorials, info etc would definitely go a long way toward helping with understanding and NPE improvement, but that is significantly more resource intensive than adjusting weapon, EQ, and module stats to create a less steep progression, and allow new players who do have some skills to be more encouraged than discouraged to stick with the game. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 155	Posted - 2015.10.28 20:54:00 - [139] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? Making ISK today is easier than it was back when I started. The payouts are higher, and the Warbarge didn't exist to give me free ISK every day. I was still able to consistently make money by simply farming ambush. Remember, I started when all of the vets had proto gear already, and there was massive tank stomping by NS. The secret to this is called avoidance. You can get a massive advantage with a sniper, or a scout suit. Also, during this event I ran at least half of my matches in an ADV suit with two ADV flaylocks. Yes, two flaylocks. My most used suit costs under 50K I managed to make 10mil ISK during the event despite everyone kill hoarding. I consistently place in the top 5 on my team. Oh, and think about how long it takes to make 5 million SP. Let's suppose that you make a little over a million a week. (That's highballing by the way, especially for new players who are likely to barely make half of that). That means you have a roughly a whole month in the academy to farm ISK running militia, and basic gear. If you haven't managed to get enough money to run ADV or Proto when you get to the real game then there really isn't any helping you. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 500	Posted - 2015.10.28 21:09:00 - [140] - Quote My academy experience lasted 3 games. Topped the board in WP and kills even with no idea of what was going on. I have 7mil SP and I started playing August 22nd.

byte modal 277	Posted - 2015.10.28 21:43:00 - [141] - Quote full knowledge, best case scenarios. sometimes it might be fun to have the world view of a 12 year old again. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 22:44:00 - [142] - Quote Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Agreed that better tutorials + extending academy duration would help. But these will not narrow the TTK gap which separates high-end loadouts from their low-end equivalents. Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent. Early career players can't afford to consistently run Advanced Gear. Do you expect they'd be able to afford Proto? 1. Making ISK today is easier than it was back when I started. The payouts are higher, and the Warbarge didn't exist to give me free ISK every day. I was still able to consistently make money by simply farming ambush. Remember, I started when all of the vets had proto gear already, and there was massive tank stomping by NS. The secret to this is called avoidance. You can get a massive advantage with a sniper, or a scout suit. 2. Also, during this event I ran at least half of my matches in an ADV suit with two ADV flaylocks. Yes, two flaylocks. My most used suit costs under 50K I managed to make 10mil ISK during the event despite everyone kill hoarding. I consistently place in the top 5 on my team. 3. Oh, and think about how long it takes to make 5 million SP. Let's suppose that you make a little over a million a week. (That's highballing by the way, especially for new players who are likely to barely make half of that). That means you have a roughly a whole month in the academy to farm ISK running militia, and basic gear. If you haven't managed to get enough money to run ADV or Proto when you get to the real game then there really isn't any helping you. 1. Newbros today know all about avoidance. That's what this thread is all about; check the title. And I'll bet avoidance has something to do with all those dots behind the redline every time I queue for something other than Ambush. Today's new players who actually push -- just like you vs Nyain San's Blaster Tanks in Ambush -- die far too often to afford to consistently field Advanced Gear. That's the point. Players are effectively being encouraged to not participate. The cost of meaningful participation is too high, and the TTK gap between high-end gear and the gear new players can actually afford is too wide. 2. If you've been around since Uprising 1.7, you aren't a newbro. And if you consistently place in the Top 5, you are by definition performing above average. We're talking about what the average newbro can or cannot afford; derping on-and-on about what the earnings of above average veterans earn serves little purpose. It isn't relevant. 3. You've misunderstood. I'm not worried about my ISK. Most old farts can afford to run proto gear each and every match from today until the day they pull the plug. That's part of the problem. ISK isn't really a balancing factor as it doesn't have much meaning to those with hundreds of millions of it. The claim "but vets pay steep price for their proto advantage" might apply in some cases, but it doesn't apply in all cases. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 23:11:00 - [143] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 80 clone Ambush, 12-16 players/team, ~6 deaths per player per match on average. At 40k-50k per advanced loadout, the average payout would need exceed 240-300k for the average merc to turn a profit. Pay rates halfway down the ambush leaderboard are no where near that. 1.) Why are you playing ambush in anything but free suits? 2.) Read 1 again Seriously, its a horrible game mode. You will get farmed, or do the farming. Play skirmish if you actually want to make ISK using normal suits. The 150 clones + larger maps mean that you will typically live longer and more clones in total will be killed for each side. This gives you more ISK overall, and a higher WP average if you PTFO. Hell, I played one match as an assault with a needle. ADV needle with a defend order gives in the ballpark of 80 WP IIRC. It's 108 if you use a proto needle. And you're forgetting once again salvage, missions, and warbarge. There is SO much ISK you can get from various sources, even going a little bit negative from time to time in match you can still pull a net positive. Ambush is what I know best, so that's the example I'm offering. I've literally seen thousands of Ambush EOM Leaderboards, and I know for a fact that average and below average players -- a category which more likely than not includes new players -- die too often to consistently field Advanced Gear. They can afford to run STD gear, so they do exactly that ... and they get wrecked by players in PRO gear like me. In many cases, even when they "do it right". Say what you want about the mode, but if Ambush does one thing well it is making players fight. There's literally no where to hide. What better place to observe the performance gaps between different tiers of gear? I observe those performance gaps firsthand every day, and I see massive opportunity for improvement. What may or may not be the norm in Skirm, I don't know. But when it comes to TTK disparity, I can't imagine there being a substantial difference from what's observed in Ambush. Players are leaving battle and camping in the redline for a reason. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.28 23:35:00 - [144] - Quote A few months back, Rattati gave us Kill/Spawn Efficiency Data to chew on. This data gives us everything we need to put a number on the "performance gap" between STD and PRO Gear: Assaults Average STD: 1.0175 Average PRO: 3.295 Performance Gap: 323.83% Logi Average STD: 0.8275 Average PRO: 2.115 Performance Gap: 255.59% Scout Average STD: 0.78 Average PRO: 2.09 Performance Gap: 267.95% Commando Average STD: 1.06 Average PRO: 3.65 Performance Gap: 345.73% Sentinel Average STD: 1.225 Average PRO: 2.515 Performance Gap: 205.31% I believe a fair challenge to those who'd claim that there's no big difference between STD and PRO loadouts. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.29 14:58:00 - [145] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: A few months back, Rattati gave us some Efficiency Data to chew on. This data gives us everything we need to put a number on the "performance gap" between STD and PRO Gear: Assault KDR Average STD: 1.0175 Average PRO: 3.295 Difference: 323.83% Logi KDR Average STD: 0.8275 Average PRO: 2.115 Difference: 255.59% Scout KDR Average STD: 0.78 Average PRO: 2.09 Difference: 267.95% Commando KDR Average STD: 1.06 Average PRO: 3.65 Difference: 345.73% Sentinel KDR Average STD: 1.225 Average PRO: 2.515 Difference: 205.31% I believe this to be a fair challenge to those who'd claim that there's no big difference between STD and PRO loadouts. Is the gap between ADV and PRO less substantial? Absolutely. But can early career mercs truly afford to routinely field ADV gear? I (for one) don't believe so. Data by itself is nowhere near enough. You seem to be forgetting how Dust works. No matter what you do, so long as higher tier gear is more expensive, lower KD/R's will ALWAYS gravitate towards the lower end of the spectrum, simply because of the fact that they die so much. They can't afford to die 20+ times in Proto gear. They would soon be forced out of it due to costs. Same with advanced gear, all the way down to STD. What about the high end? Players who are really good at the game will naturally gravitate towards the higher end of the spectrum. They can afford to run the higher tier gear due to how little they die, and people who are REALLY good can run it 24/7. There is no "ceiling" for these players. The ones that are good enough to crush 90% of the opposition they meet will almost always run proto gear, simply because they can. Not only that, but most people LIKE the proto gear. It makes you feel powerful, it looks kick ass, and you feel like you can take on the world with it (Only to realize that a dren shotgun on a BPO suit can ruin your day for the lovely cost of two complex damps). Everyone remembers getting their first proto suit. You WANTED to take your toy out to play. The ones who can afford to run it 24/7 almost always do so, inflating the proto K/DR even higher. Combining these two causes the phenomenon you see here. The bad players stick to STD because they can't afford to die over and over in higher tier gear, and the better players stick to ADV or higher because they can afford to run it. Its the nature of EVE and this game. There will always be sharks and fish. Some people simply aren't good enough at FPS games to be sharks. EVE and Dust tackle this by giving you SUPPORT roles, such as the Scout and Logistics. With enough game knowledge, you don't have to slay people constantly to be a benefit. Running around as a scout, hacking points and killing uplinks and going 2/5, is FAR more beneficial than a guy going 6/20 trying to meat grind. KDR isn't the answer to everything. You get ISK based off of WARPOINTS, not kills. You get more for WINNING, not losing. P-T-F-O Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 504	Posted - 2015.10.29 16:38:00 - [146] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: A few months back, Rattati gave us some Efficiency Data to chew on. This data gives us everything we need to put a number on the "performance gap" between STD and PRO Gear: Assault KDR Average STD: 1.0175 Average PRO: 3.295 Difference: 323.83% Logi KDR Average STD: 0.8275 Average PRO: 2.115 Difference: 255.59% Scout KDR Average STD: 0.78 Average PRO: 2.09 Difference: 267.95% Commando KDR Average STD: 1.06 Average PRO: 3.65 Difference: 345.73% Sentinel KDR Average STD: 1.225 Average PRO: 2.515 Difference: 205.31% I believe this to be a fair challenge to those who'd claim that there's no big difference between STD and PRO loadouts. Is the gap between ADV and PRO less substantial? Absolutely. But can early career mercs truly afford to routinely field ADV gear? I (for one) don't believe so. Data by itself is nowhere near enough. You seem to be forgetting how Dust works. No matter what you do, so long as higher tier gear is more expensive, lower KD/R's will ALWAYS gravitate towards the lower end of the spectrum, simply because of the fact that they die so much. They can't afford to die 20+ times in Proto gear. They would soon be forced out of it due to costs. Same with advanced gear, all the way down to STD. What about the high end? Players who are really good at the game will naturally gravitate towards the higher end of the spectrum. They can afford to run the higher tier gear due to how little they die, and people who are REALLY good can run it 24/7. There is no "ceiling" for these players. The ones that are good enough to crush 90% of the opposition they meet will almost always run proto gear, simply because they can. Not only that, but most people LIKE the proto gear. It makes you feel powerful, it looks kick ass, and you feel like you can take on the world with it (Only to realize that a dren shotgun on a BPO suit can ruin your day for the lovely cost of two complex damps). Everyone remembers getting their first proto suit. You WANTED to take your toy out to play. The ones who can afford to run it 24/7 almost always do so, inflating the proto K/DR even higher. Combining these two causes the phenomenon you see here. The bad players stick to STD because they can't afford to die over and over in higher tier gear, and the better players stick to ADV or higher because they can afford to run it. Its the nature of EVE and this game. There will always be sharks and fish. Some people simply aren't good enough at FPS games to be sharks. EVE and Dust tackle this by giving you SUPPORT roles, such as the Scout and Logistics. With enough game knowledge, you don't have to slay people constantly to be a benefit. Running around as a scout, hacking points and killing uplinks and going 2/5, is FAR more beneficial than a guy going 6/20 trying to meat grind. KDR isn't the answer to everything. You get ISK based off of WARPOINTS, not kills. You get more for WINNING, not losing. P-T-F-O And that's exactly why EVE introduced tiericide. Dust will follow suit or its port will. I guarantee its not going to stay like this. It literally doesn't make sense in its current model. You brought up great points about how vets like their proto and will run it simply because they can. But that doesn't mean the TTK gap should stay be so egregious, times will change eventually. But as for now I guess we just have to deal with it!
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.29 16:46:00 - [147] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: A few months back, Rattati gave us some Efficiency Data to chew on. This data gives us everything we need to put a number on the "performance gap" between STD and PRO Gear: Assault KDR Average STD: 1.0175 Average PRO: 3.295 Difference: 323.83% Logi KDR Average STD: 0.8275 Average PRO: 2.115 Difference: 255.59% Scout KDR Average STD: 0.78 Average PRO: 2.09 Difference: 267.95% Commando KDR Average STD: 1.06 Average PRO: 3.65 Difference: 345.73% Sentinel KDR Average STD: 1.225 Average PRO: 2.515 Difference: 205.31% I believe this to be a fair challenge to those who'd claim that there's no big difference between STD and PRO loadouts. Is the gap between ADV and PRO less substantial? Absolutely. But can early career mercs truly afford to routinely field ADV gear? I (for one) don't believe so. Data by itself is nowhere near enough. You seem to be forgetting how Dust works. No matter what you do, so long as higher tier gear is more expensive, lower KD/R's will ALWAYS gravitate towards the lower end of the spectrum, simply because of the fact that they die so much. They can't afford to die 20+ times in Proto gear. They would soon be forced out of it due to costs. Same with advanced gear, all the way down to STD. What about the high end? Players who are really good at the game will naturally gravitate towards the higher end of the spectrum. They can afford to run the higher tier gear due to how little they die, and people who are REALLY good can run it 24/7. There is no "ceiling" for these players. The ones that are good enough to crush 90% of the opposition they meet will almost always run proto gear, simply because they can. Not only that, but most people LIKE the proto gear. It makes you feel powerful, it looks kick ass, and you feel like you can take on the world with it (Only to realize that a dren shotgun on a BPO suit can ruin your day for the lovely cost of two complex damps). Everyone remembers getting their first proto suit. You WANTED to take your toy out to play. The ones who can afford to run it 24/7 almost always do so, inflating the proto K/DR even higher. Combining these two causes the phenomenon you see here. The bad players stick to STD because they can't afford to die over and over in higher tier gear, and the better players stick to ADV or higher because they can afford to run it. Its the nature of EVE and this game. There will always be sharks and fish. Some people simply aren't good enough at FPS games to be sharks. EVE and Dust tackle this by giving you SUPPORT roles, such as the Scout and Logistics. With enough game knowledge, you don't have to slay people constantly to be a benefit. Running around as a scout, hacking points and killing uplinks and going 2/5, is FAR more beneficial than a guy going 6/20 trying to meat grind. KDR isn't the answer to everything. You get ISK based off of WARPOINTS, not kills. You get more for WINNING, not losing. P-T-F-O And that's exactly why EVE introduced tiericide. Dust will follow suit or its port will. I guarantee its not going to stay like this. It literally doesn't make sense in its current model. You brought up great points about how vets like their proto and will run it simply because they can. But that doesn't mean the TTK gap should stay be so egregious, times will change eventually. But as for now I guess we just have to deal with it! I've wanted tiericide for ages. I'm not against it. I'm pointing out the flaw in Shotty's example. Raw KD/R trying to show correlation for the power of STD-PRO gear is incorrect, since it doesn't account for the fact that bad players can only afford to run STD gear due to costs. Not just vets like to run proto. Anyone who can succeed with the suit will. In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality. People have gotten it into their head that a proto suit is this insurmountable advantage, to the point where people misuse the suit, and people who face it give up before actually fighting. Proto does not mean you can 1v4. That basic suit can, and WILL kill you if you don't take it seriously. Good players in ADV and Basic suits are still a threat. Everyone decent knows this. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
postapo wastelander Corrosive Synergy RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.10.29 16:58:00 - [148] - Quote The answer can be "underdog" bonus too. *"Completion by direct action"* `Forge syndicalist of Corrosive Synergy`
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.10.29 17:59:00 - [149] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing False. I'm a vet (E3 Beta), and the new player experience that we went through was much less difficult than the current NPE. We didn't go up against players with 70M+ SP, we didn't go against players with Gal Logi's blasting us with permascans. We didn't play against officer suits and a full line up of officer weapons. The tips that you have offered are valid, and there are things that new players can do to improve their play and experience. But comparing our NPE to the current NPE is to make a false equivalence "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.29 21:53:00 - [150] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledges problems and/or proposes solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong ... that's the problem" and "all newbros need is more training ... that's the solution". Maybe he's right on some level, but other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap which separate vets from newbros -- certainly play a part and certainly are not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong. Dropsuit Usage Rates

Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 175	Posted - 2015.10.29 22:01:00 - [151] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledges problems and/or proposes solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong ... that's the problem" and "all newbros need is more training ... that's the solution". Maybe he's right on some level, but other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap which separate vets from newbros -- certainly play a part and certainly are not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong. At this point all we can do is willingly die for the newbros or mentor them. It's not up to us to change the NPE. It's up to CCP. Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.29 22:15:00 - [152] - Quote Kail Mako wrote: At this point all we can do is willingly die for the newbros or mentor them. It's not up to us to change the NPE. It's up to CCP. The most popular position among vets in this thread appears to be: If there are any problems with NPE, those problems should be blamed on the newbros themselves. They're doing it wrong. And tell 'em to quit complaining about being farmed; we had it harder back in the day. PS: Can we get some penalties put into place to keep newbros from backing out or camping the redline? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 300	Posted - 2015.10.30 00:40:00 - [153] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kail Mako wrote: At this point all we can do is willingly die for the newbros or mentor them. It's not up to us to change the NPE. It's up to CCP. Sadly, the vibe I'm picking up appears to be: "If there are any problems with NPE, those problems should be blamed squarely on the newbros themselves. They must be doing it wrong. And tell 'em to quit complaining about it; pretty sure we had it harder back in the day. PS: Please, CCP, can we get some penalties put into place to keep newbros from leaving battle when we farm them?" Because you are trusting your obviously half baked instincts instead of actually reading. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 05:06:00 - [154] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledged problems and/or proposed solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong; that's the problem" and "newbros need more training; that's the solution". Maybe he's right on some level, but a number of other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap -- are playing a part and are certainly not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong. lol! good try bud but this is pretty basic logic. Inferring ghost doesn't think NPE should be improved because he didn't specifically say it...yeah that's a no-no. You continually misconstrue people pointing out flaws in your arguments as intending to suggest anything other than the flaw they are pointing out. Honestly if there's enough playerbase and the matchmaking was better we wouldn't be having people with 2 mill sp facing off against those with 70 IMO. But I don't need to provide examples like the one above to demonstrate I think that the NPE should be improved. There's a lot we can do for newbro's, but we don't have to tell them they are wrong if we've taught them right...which is why tutorials should be at the fore of any improvements to NPE. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
korrah silain True Illuminate 117	Posted - 2015.10.30 05:56:00 - [155] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point. Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk. : Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing I was abused as a child so I don't see why its not OK to abuse MY child! Yeah OK that makes sense you ever get to that point where you know you should sleep, but ya just...dont? yeah...me too.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 73	Posted - 2015.10.30 10:02:00 - [156] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: TheD1CK wrote: average opponent had uto 100mil SP? Citation needed. What data has Rattati shared with us that says the average active player of Dust 514 has 100,000,000 lifetime SP? Please link it, I'd like to take a look. TheD1CK wrote: Or dealing with Officer gear being as common as it is now. Officer spam is a problem. I will agree with you on that. Hopefully the recent change to the experimental lab will help curtail the officer stomping a bit. TheD1CK wrote: Crappy as it is, you cannot deny the OP makes more sense than most of the replies to his post. No, I can deny it actually. A new player is capable of insta-gibbing people with a PLC or SG. They can provide suppression fire with MDs and LRs. They can chuck grenades that now do proto-tier damage at all tiers and ruin someone's day. They have tools available to them that can make a difference in a battle. If you want to help a new player then squad with them, give them advice on fittings, if you are feeling generous then give them some ISK. THAT is how you help new players. Not telling them to tuck tail and run at the first sight of a difficult battle. A new player may indeed be able to do all these things, but they don't know what to do or how to do it. This is the real fundamental difference between vets and noobs.
byte modal 277	Posted - 2015.10.30 15:29:00 - [157] - Quote Still not sure how NPE became the topic. Of course that is a problem, but in the here-and-now it doesn't exist. Period. Pointing to it as justification for the skill discrepancies only goes so far, as if to say "Well, the real problem here is a lack of NPE training so because of that it's totally cool to stomp, tell the new players to gitgud and HTFU, and obliterate the potential player base that is needed to perpetuate this game. After all, it's not MY fault that NPE doesn't do its job!" Yes, it's a game. Do wtfever you want and have fun doing it. Just don't pretend we, as veteran players of a game that honestly deserves so much more on so many levels (the game deserves, not the player), are without responsibility to the lack of player retention. I'm not saying cater, but surely you do understand that running new players off only hurts the game in the long run. Do all new players give up? No. We wouldn't be here if that were true, but judging by the numbers I'd say that more leave than stay. That is not a good thing. EvE places the new capsuler into HISEC space as a buffer. DUST newbies are dropped direct into the suck. Stat pad if you want. Some will endure and find it refreshing to work the uphill battle. Power to them. We've all done it. But to pretend we're not part of the problem is willfully ignorant at best. ..just my 0.02ISK. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 15:36:00 - [158] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: :: snip :: Why attempt to obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. Newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself? Turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so one could always argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo. To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we look at those vet perks. Is that idea not popular among the vets? Surprise, surprise. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Radiant Pancake3 KILL-EM-QUICK 1	Posted - 2015.10.30 15:42:00 - [159] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk. Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game. Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads. Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored. What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time. I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel. #nohonour Learned the ways of N4g from Alcina's mom Deemed the most Kinkiest Corp Mate. Min Loyalist.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 15:48:00 - [160] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Efficiency Data Ghost Kaiser wrote: In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality. What newbros really need are some "you can do it" motivational posters in their merc quarters. Dropsuit Usage Rates

Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 315	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:04:00 - [161] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: :: snip :: Why obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. Newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself? Turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so one could always argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo. To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks. Not a popular idea among the vets? Surprise, surprise. You clearly didn't even read what Z wrote. You deserve a golf clapand a padded helmet. You know Ghost started a thread calling for increased starting skills for new bros right? Of course you didn't, because like Z pointed out, you take anything that isn't complete agreement as complete disagreement. Congrats on not being helpful at all, keep it up. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:28:00 - [162] - Quote Press Attache wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: :: snip :: Why obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. Newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself? Turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so one could always argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo. To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks. Not a popular idea among the vets? Surprise, surprise. You clearly didn't even read what Z wrote. You deserve a golf clapand a padded helmet. You know Ghost started a thread calling for increased starting skills for new bros right? Of course you didn't, because like Z pointed out, you take anything that isn't complete agreement as complete disagreement. Congrats on not being helpful at all, keep it up. So long as I have good odds of killing newbros who shoot me in the back, I'm going to argue that vet perks are a part of the NPE problem. I'm not diluted enough to believe that my prevailing over other players who have me dead to rights is a function of player skill. I don't think I'm "schooling" other players; I think that I'm exploiting a very potent and persistent gear gap. I call it how I see it, and as I see it, player skill is playing second fiddle to the fact that my PRO Gear/TTK/DPS is substantially better than that of the newbros in STD gear I'm wrecking. The gear gap between ADV and PRO is indeed less substantial, but newbros aren't making enough ISK to routinely field ADV gear, regardless of what Ghost Kaiser says he earns in pubs or what small amounts of ISK player warbarges produce each day. There are problems with NPE wholly unrelated to academy duration, lack of tutorials / newbro ignorance, and newbro SP levels. Whether vets like it or not, vet perks will need to be factored into NPE improvements if those improvements are to have any real effect on new player retention. It blows my mind that vets clamor to maintain the advantages of an unhealthy status quo in a game they themselves don't even play anymore. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:37:00 - [163] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: :: snip :: Why obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. With time, newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself? Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a pile of new tutorials. Well, it turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo. To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks. Not a popular idea among the vets? Surprise, surprise. Newbro ignorance does not need work. With time, newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. I find this woefully presumptuous. I think in the main most players quit far more because they don't stay around long enough to dispel their ignorance. The lack of information arming them puts them at a much worse disadvantage than any minor differences TTK has or isk they couldn't benefit from a whole lot as a newbro. Being overwhelmed by the complexity of the game's mechanics seems much more logical and indeed validate based on my experiences bringing people to play dust. My little brother in law won't touch dust even if he has all the sp and isk in the world...he doesn't even know people have crazy amounts of isk or what the difference is between militia and officer is....he thinks heavies are the best in the game because he gets mowed down by hmg's. Quote: Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a pile of new tutorials. Well, it turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. This is the kind of nonsense that deserves little more than a collective yawn. Here, here let me try making hypotheticals! And while i'm at it I'll just broadly categorize people and pigeonhole their views because that's convenient...and perhaps a dash of bullshit about it all being caused by selfishness...without ever backing it up... "Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a way so that all gear was equal and everyone had equal amounts of it. Well, it turns out that newbro's were still ** stomped and nothing changed in the data, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done." Quote: To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks. I could again rephrase this to demonstrate the ineptitude that callous self righteousness seems to have elicited...but suffice it to say that this whole argument might be remotely worthy of consideration if it wasn't lacking in every way in demonstrative evidence. Call it 'blaming the newbro's" if that gross characterization helps you to justify the house you've built here on proverbial sand...but anyone with a brain isn't moved because we're all waiting for you to stop telling us it hasn't worked...and demonstrate to us where attempts have been made to improve newbro knowledge and show in relevant data that it hasn't had the desired effect. A healthy dose of devil's advocate would do all a world of good. Before you set out against a different viewpoint...be capable of making the strongest arguments for the other side such that they would find you convincing. I leave you with that invitation. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:37:00 - [164] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Efficiency Data Ghost Kaiser wrote: In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality. What newbros really need are some "you can do it" motivational posters in their merc quarters. You ignore the core of the argument and cherry pick what you want to discredit. I've seen kids in my Speech 101 class do better than this, and half of them are unprepared and terrified. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:49:00 - [165] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong This is really the gist of what he's contributed. There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself. It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized. The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Ayuzawa 27	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:50:00 - [166] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong This is really the gist of what he's contributed. There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself. It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized. The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution. Why argue with an idiot? As if you could kill time without injuring eternity. - Henry David Thoreau
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:53:00 - [167] - Quote Ayuzawa wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong This is really the gist of what he's contributed. There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself. It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized. The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution. Why argue with an idiot? I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 513	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:55:00 - [168] - Quote It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Sure, the KDR data and then TTK data between suits is a BASIC set of examples. But they are examples that illustrate a glaring problem and we have quantified some data. All of the arguments for keeping proto and the game the way it is are opinion based emotional responses from those who firmly believe they are just better players, and that gear does not factor in as a large advantage. Simple data examples would tell us otherwise, if you're not mature enough to look at the problem for what it is then we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I bought a respec after falling 25 kills short of my event total. I only have 7mil SP and I consolidated my roles and got a Gk.0 suit with some complex mods and proto ARs. And I've got to tell you guys, its everything I dreamed it would be. Literally within my first three games I could feel the difference. I could go toe to toe with pro suits without feeling weak and some newbros died in under 2 seconds of landing AR shots in their direction. I don't even have all skills to 5 for my Assault kit. I can only imagine what it would feel like using officer gear and weapons with fully upgraded skills. I never had the chance to use proto before yesterday. And you guys are ******* drunk if you don't think that power gap is an OBVIOUS advantage and factor in your performance in firefights.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 513	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:58:00 - [169] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong This is really the gist of what he's contributed. There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself. It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized. The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution. And you don't see the same thing coming from your side of the aisle? No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims. We give you data to work with and are still met with opinion. Opinion that you all see as set in stone, then claim we won't listen to any other ideas and are manipulating the conversation. I mean, its really hypocritical at the least.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:18:00 - [170] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: And you don't see the same thing coming from your side of the aisle? No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims. We give you data to work with and are still met with opinion. Opinion that you all see as set in stone, then claim we won't listen to any other ideas and are manipulating the conversation. I mean, its really hypocritical at the least. Lol! I presented 2 examples of newbro experiences...I haven't said that isk gap or other factors aren't playing a part, merely challenging the assertions that don't seem factually based despite being promoted as such. Who is this "we" and where is their data? because that's what I've been asking for. Your presumptions that anyone's opinions are set in stone only serve to confirm your own bias...not mine. Since when has pointing out flawed arguments been tantamount to manipulation of conversation? Dubious proposition. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily

CUSE TOWN333 Capital Acquisitions LLC 3	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:25:00 - [171] - Quote F the new players. actions speak louder then words.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:26:00 - [172] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Sure, the KDR data and then TTK data between suits is a BASIC set of examples. But they are examples that illustrate a glaring problem and we have quantified some data. All of the arguments for keeping proto and the game the way it is are opinion based emotional responses from those who firmly believe they are just better players, and that gear does not factor in as a large advantage. Simple data examples would tell us otherwise, if you're not mature enough to look at the problem for what it is then we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Daemonn Adima wrote: It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Pot, meet kettle. Daemonn Adima wrote: I never had the chance to use proto before yesterday. And you guys are ***** drunk if you don't think that power gap is an OBVIOUS advantage and factor in your performance in firefights. The difference being...I'm asking for data from which meaningful conclusions can be had. It's like any number of times in academia when a young grad student finds data that supports his thesis, and then simply refuses to do more research because the more research that's done, the less black and white his grand conclusion becomes. Hence why those of us who have the faintest idea are far more likely to say "hey this supports my notion...I probably need more data" than "hey this supports my assertions!!! We have the silver bullet let's draw conclusions now!" I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 518	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:34:00 - [173] - Quote Lol not really man. Sure the data we presented is basic. Sure its possibly skewed because it doesn't account for every single factor (which some are not quantifiable, as in player behavior and actual player skill level) BUT it is the only data anyone has this far tried to present. So from both pieces of data (the KDR gaps and TTK gaps) not a single meaningful conclusion can be drawn? And my statement about proto wasn't anything more than me sharing MY personal experience. Did I say it was factual data? You wanna talk about strawmanning and all your fancy conversational trappings, these are semantics. Can we actually talk about the numbers besides "I don't like those numbers, so this data is flawed, no conclusion can be drawn whatsoever... Git gud scrubz!"
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 518	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:37:00 - [174] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: And you don't see the same thing coming from your side of the aisle? No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims. We give you data to work with and are still met with opinion. Opinion that you all see as set in stone, then claim we won't listen to any other ideas and are manipulating the conversation. I mean, its really hypocritical at the least. Lol! I presented 2 examples of newbro experiences...I haven't said that isk gap or other factors aren't playing a part, merely challenging the assertions that don't seem factually based despite being promoted as such. Who is this "we" and where is their data? because that's what I've been asking for. Your presumptions that anyone's opinions are set in stone only serve to confirm your own bias...not mine. Since when has pointing out flawed arguments been tantamount to manipulation of conversation? Dubious proposition. Your examples of newbro experience are not data. They are anectdoal at best. Rattati provided KDR gaps between suit types. Shawn Iwario ran numbers on TTK gaps. That's what I'm referring to. Both have been posted and linked to through out this thread.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 518	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:40:00 - [175] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Pot, meet kettle. Daemonn Adima wrote: I never had the chance to use proto before yesterday. And you guys are ***** drunk if you don't think that power gap is an OBVIOUS advantage and factor in your performance in firefights. The difference being...I'm asking for data from which meaningful conclusions can be had. It's like any number of times in academia when a young grad student finds data that supports his thesis, and then simply refuses to do more research because the more research that's done, the less black and white his grand conclusion becomes. Hence why those of us who have the faintest idea are far more likely to say "hey this supports my notion...I probably need more data" than "hey this supports my assertions!!! We have the silver bullet let's draw conclusions now!" Daemonn Adima wrote:** All of the arguments for keeping proto and the game the way it is are opinion based emotional responses from those who firmly believe they are just better players, and that gear does not factor in as a large advantage. Simple data examples would tell us otherwise, if you're not mature enough to look at the problem for what it is then we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Where have people been saying that proto shouldn't be changed or the that NPE shouldn't be improved upon? It must be someone else, I'm simply wondering who. If it's me feel free to quote where I said this. Maybe you could point out where people said it's not a factor? When data needs to be qualified as 'simple' that should indicate as to the strength of any conclusions drawn from it. I'm sure you feel that everyone who disagrees with you must be immature, motivated by pride under the impressions they simply are better, and must use emotional responses...but the problem here is that this is an emotional response...plain and simple. If you've been keeping up with the argument over the last few weeks and several threads, you'd read many opposing any MU or tier locks are because they firmly believe proto gear is not a factor or not as big of a factor as other things like: newbro knowledge, some say squads hurt this game the most, others say its scrubs who don't know how to play, most just tell you to "git gud".
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:43:00 - [176] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Efficiency Data Ghost Kaiser wrote: In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality. What newbros really need are some "you can do it" motivational posters in their merc quarters. You ignore the core of the argument and cherry pick what you want to discredit. I've seen kids in my Speech 101 class do better than this, and half of them are unprepared and terrified. That post was entirely dedicated to showing how the data you presented as proof was skewed by in game mechanics. Not just trying to give new bros a "Pep talk" The moment someone disagrees with you, you blot out everything else they've ever said/done, and focus on a small part that you disagree with. That's horrendous arguing. Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any. "Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy." Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap. "The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear." Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys. "Noobs should PTFO." Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear. "Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear." OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us? "There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological." Gonna have to disagree with this one. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 518	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:46:00 - [177] - Quote Shaun Iwairo wrote: I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit. Basic level player: Armor Plating I Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I +5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 0 Augmented Ammo 0 +15% damage vs armor Proto level player: Armor Plating 5 Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5 +25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 5 Augmented Ammo 5 +35% damage vs armor Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage? "But that's just the way of New Eden" This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to. I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?' I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem. I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers. Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has: 288 Shield HP 271 Armor HP and does: 24 HP/round damage to Shield 32.8 HP/round damage to Armor Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has: 335.1 Shield HP 314.5 Armor HP and does: 25.2 HP/round damage to shield 39.6 HP/round damage to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top. Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear. Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and; Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them: 372.5 Shield HP 347.5 Armor HP and they do: 27.3 HP/round to Shield 43.1 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top. Now things get nasty Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them: 407.7 Shield HP 402.5 Armor HP and they do: 30.45 HP/round to Shield 46.8 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top. I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon: For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top. No conclusions can be drawn?
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:50:00 - [178] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Lol not really man. Sure the data we presented is basic. Sure its possibly skewed because it doesn't account for every single factor (which some are not quantifiable, as in player behavior and actual player skill level) BUT it is the only data anyone has this far tried to present. So from both pieces of data (the KDR gaps and TTK gaps) not a single meaningful conclusion can be drawn? And my statement about proto wasn't anything more than me sharing MY personal experience. Did I say it was factual data? You wanna talk about strawmanning and all your fancy conversational trappings, these are semantics. Can we actually talk about the numbers besides "I don't like those numbers, so this data is flawed, no conclusion can be drawn whatsoever... Git gud scrubz!" "It's the only data, let's use what we have" I addressed this "skewed because it doesn't account for every single factor" lol, how about discussing what factors it actually does account for vs the number it doesn't.. This comes off as "Sorry it doesn't have EVERY SINGLE LAST FACTOR" "So from both pieces of data (the KDR gaps and TTK gaps) not a single meaningful conclusion can be drawn?" It's certainly a place to start, but not grounds for wholehearted conclusions. "And my statement about proto wasn't anything more than me sharing MY personal experience. Did I say it was factual data?" If you can't see the hypocrisy in suggesting that others are biased because they present anecdotal evidence...and then providing anecdotal evidence...then I uhh...well I really just don't know that's quite perplexing. The 'did i say it's factual data' is even more shocking. Has anyone suggested that anecdotal evidence is factual data? If not...then wtf was the point there? "Can we actually talk about the numbers besides "I don't like those numbers, so this data is flawed, no conclusion can be drawn whatsoever... Git gud scrubz!"" Semantics? SMH... Now you're pulling a 'shoddy gobang' I don't think anyone has said "I don't like those numbers" but I'm sure from a biased perspective that might be the way one might go about characterizing those who challenge their opinions. I'd stated quite clearly where I stand, if there's further useful discussion you desire feel free to set the topic. I would like to point out that you're cherrypicking much less than Adipem and I extoll your character...you see how I'm not avoiding any of your premises? I answer them, not cherry pick maybe one thing that i can twist to make a point with...I have no qualms reconciling and discussing anything you propose. Feel free to do the same. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:53:00 - [179] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledged problems and/or proposed solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong; that's the problem" and "newbros need more training; that's the solution". Maybe he's right on some level, but a number of other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap -- are playing a part and are certainly not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2996827#post2996827 \|\| Because you missed it. My main argument has always been simple: Proto suits by themselves are not the problem. Compared statistically to other suits based on RAW stats and costs, Proto gives a minute advantage over advanced for a much higher ticket. Everyone who says "Proto suits are the problem" are dead wrong. The suits themselves are wonderfully balanced. "High SP gives you too big of an advantage!". Dead wrong as well, but a bit more merit to it. SP gives you large advantages for sure, but all that SP doesn't equate to skill or game knowledge. I can hop on a 4 Mil SP toon and trash most players, simply because I understand the game far better, and play far better. SP is very helpful though, and necessary to progress. We have made great strides in helping them get along, with passive warbarge SP, missions, higher cap, etc. Getting SP is not an issue. What happens when you combine the proto suit, high SP, and game knowledge/Skill and throw him at someone brand new? Proto will win 9 times out 10. Why? Individually, these bonuses don't mean much, but combined they create quite a large gap. Shawns example is on the right track. Which is why I mentioned in that above post, I wanted them to have better base skills, better tutorials, and removing militia and incentivising getting ADV gear ASAP. I'll say it again, so people can't try to twist my words. Proto Suits aren't the problem. High SP isn't the problem. Proto Suits + High SP + Skill / Game knowledege against the lower end of the spectrum is the problem. At the end of the day, the BEST way to improve your overall performance is to learn how to play the game better. SP and Gear will easily come with time once you figure out how to stop throwing your clone away and actually DO something. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:55:00 - [180] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Your examples of newbro experience are not data. They are anectdoal at best. Where were they presented as data...oh no man, here we go with the mischaracterizations. That there is a fallacy buddy I presented them as a refutation of your assertion that Quote: No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims. By pointing out that I've provided anecdotal evidence that has nothing to do with my own vet experiences...it's newbro experiences being witnessed and asserted. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:02:00 - [181] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any. "Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy." Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap. "The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear." Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys. "Noobs should PTFO." Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear. "Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear." OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us? "There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological." Gonna have to disagree with this one. Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread. "Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap." That is a presumption not based in fact. It's quite possible that tutorials and other fixes could very well mitigate any power gap that exists to 'acceptable' levels. "Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys." Disagreeing is great...but not an adequate refutation of an assertion. "Gonna have to disagree with this one." Don't know that this is a satisfactory characterization of his position, but if so...disagreeing isn't a rebuttal..and thus doesn't help anyone to draw closer to a mutual understanding or consensus." I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:02:00 - [182] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: I'll say it again, so people can't try to twist my words. Proto Suits aren't the problem. High SP isn't the problem. Proto Suits + High SP + Skill / Game knowledege against the lower end of the spectrum is the problem. At the end of the day, the BEST way to improve your overall performance is to learn how to play the game better. SP and Gear will easily come with time once you figure out how to stop throwing your clone away and actually DO something. I agree, to a degree. I stand my positions that (A) the STD/PRO power gap is too substantial and (B) that the average noob needs to be able to afford to run the ADV gear he unlocks. MLT Gear - Remove it STD Gear - Average noob turns a healthy profit ADV Gear - Average noob breaks even PRO Gear - Average noob incurs a healthy loss Dropsuit Usage Rates
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 521	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:08:00 - [183] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledged problems and/or proposed solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong; that's the problem" and "newbros need more training; that's the solution". Maybe he's right on some level, but a number of other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap -- are playing a part and are certainly not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2996827#post2996827 \|\| Because you missed it. My main argument has always been simple: Proto suits by themselves are not the problem. Compared statistically to other suits based on RAW stats and costs, Proto gives a minute advantage over advanced for a much higher ticket. Everyone who says "Proto suits are the problem" are dead wrong. The suits themselves are wonderfully balanced. "High SP gives you too big of an advantage!". Dead wrong as well, but a bit more merit to it. SP gives you large advantages for sure, but all that SP doesn't equate to skill or game knowledge. I can hop on a 4 Mil SP toon and trash most players, simply because I understand the game far better, and play far better. SP is very helpful though, and necessary to progress. We have made great strides in helping them get along, with passive warbarge SP, missions, higher cap, etc. Getting SP is not an issue. What happens when you combine the proto suit, high SP, and game knowledge/Skill and throw him at someone brand new? Proto will win 9 times out 10. Why? Individually, these bonuses don't mean much, but combined they create quite a large gap. Shawns example is on the right track. Which is why I mentioned in that above post, I wanted them to have better base skills, better tutorials, and removing militia and incentivising getting ADV gear ASAP. I'll say it again, so people can't try to twist my words. Proto Suits aren't the problem. High SP isn't the problem. Proto Suits + High SP + Skill / Game knowledege against the lower end of the spectrum is the problem. At the end of the day, the BEST way to improve your overall performance is to learn how to play the game better. SP and Gear will easily come with time once you figure out how to stop throwing your clone away and actually DO something. No one is saying "proto suits are the problem". We are saying its a problem to let the MOST WELL EQUIPPED go against the LEAST WELL EQUIPPED. That is the ISSUE. Can we talk about the issue and stop mincing words? Good god.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:10:00 - [184] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Efficiency Data Ghost Kaiser wrote: In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality. What newbros really need are some "you can do it" motivational posters in their merc quarters. You ignore the core of the argument and cherry pick what you want to discredit. I've seen kids in my Speech 101 class do better than this, and half of them are unprepared and terrified. That post was entirely dedicated to showing how the data you presented as proof was skewed by in game mechanics. Not just trying to give new bros a "Pep talk" The moment someone disagrees with you, you blot out everything else they've ever said/done, and focus on a small part that you disagree with. That's horrendous arguing. Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any. "Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy." Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap. "The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear." Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys. "Noobs should PTFO." Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear. "Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear." OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us? "There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological." Gonna have to disagree with this one. Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread. Mostly correct. We need better tutorials and better academy for sure. The AVERAGE noob can afford to run it. Easily. You guys keep describing the "average" player as someone who gets in the bottom 4 consistently with 6+ deaths and no WP. To which I always say, "If you can't slay, be a logi". You want to know how to get out of the bottom 4? Contribute. DO SOMETHING. I do NOT support trying to let people to do nothing and get rewarded for it. If they're consistently horrible, send them back to that improved academy. If they never improve, let them stay there. Noobs should absolutely PTFO. Basic suit with uplinks and injector, easiest ISK in the world. No excuses. Not everyone was born a slayer, and Dust shouldn't be full of nothing BUT slayers. We have scouts and Logi's too you know. What I have an issue with. >"Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear." If I say that A causes B, it doesn't mean that B causes A. I said that the data is skewed because the nature of Dust makes lower KD/R's gravitate towards STD gear. That doesn't mean that I implied that players are bad, because they use STD gear. My argument was directed at the cost of the suit in relation to how often they died, tied into skill. Not simply "This data says good players use PRO gear". Bad players use PRO gear too, and they drive down the KD/R until they hit ADV, then they drive that down till they hit STD. Due to cost. >"~~There is no real STD/PRO power gap~~; the proto advantage is largely psychological." FTFY. Don't put words in my mouth. The STD-PRO gap is definite, the ADV-PRO gap is small, and rarely worth the premium. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 521	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:11:00 - [185] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Snip What I'd like to discuss is: Shaun Iwairo wrote: I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit. Basic level player: Armor Plating I Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I +5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 0 Augmented Ammo 0 +15% damage vs armor Proto level player: Armor Plating 5 Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5 +25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP Combat Rifle Proficiency 5 Augmented Ammo 5 +35% damage vs armor Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage? "But that's just the way of New Eden" This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to. I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?' I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem. I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers. Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has: 288 Shield HP 271 Armor HP and does: 24 HP/round damage to Shield 32.8 HP/round damage to Armor Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has: 335.1 Shield HP 314.5 Armor HP and does: 25.2 HP/round damage to shield 39.6 HP/round damage to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top. Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear. Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and; Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them: 372.5 Shield HP 347.5 Armor HP and they do: 27.3 HP/round to Shield 43.1 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top. Now things get nasty Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them: 407.7 Shield HP 402.5 Armor HP and they do: 30.45 HP/round to Shield 46.8 HP/round to Armor For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top. I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon: For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:12:00 - [186] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: If you've been keeping up with the argument over the last few weeks and several threads, you'd read many opposing any MU or tier locks are because they firmly believe proto gear is not a factor or not as big of a factor as other things like: newbro knowledge, some say squads hurt this game the most, others say its scrubs who don't know how to play, most just tell you to "git gud". Oh...well, I find most arguments you mentioned just as counter productive as the kinds of rhetoric I have been playing devil's advocate with in this thread. I don't think that it's impossible that tutorials could play a larger factor than eliminating any power gap between proto and militia gear..but I'm completely open to information that contradicts that opinion and thus changing it in the wake of new information. But that's always been me. You probably are a little jaded from all the idiots you've been responding to. I'm maddeningly logical...I really couldn't care who's right...I only care what's right and that conclusions are well reasoned...not promoted under a banner of 'shoddy gobang' arguments. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:13:00 - [187] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: No one is saying "proto suits are the problem". We are saying its a problem to let the MOST WELL EQUIPPED go against the LEAST WELL EQUIPPED. That is the ISSUE. Can we talk about the issue and stop mincing words? Good god. You aren't even arguing, you just keep spamming Shawns post like its your own. That, and using anecdotal evidence of your own, while discounting all the others. And as for your issue, I've already said my part about it. I want a better academy, and higher base skills. Issue solved. All CCP has to do is make it. Until then, learn to play better, that's all you can do. Skill is all that can help you now. Or you could just leave matches 24/7, because that will help. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:14:00 - [188] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any. "Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy." Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap. "The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear." Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys. "Noobs should PTFO." Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear. "Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear." OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us? "There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological." Gonna have to disagree with this one. Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread. "Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap." That is a presumption not based in fact. It's quite possible that tutorials and other fixes could very well mitigate any power gap that exists to 'acceptable' levels. "Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys." Disagreeing is great...but not an adequate refutation of an assertion. "Gonna have to disagree with this one." Don't know that this is a satisfactory characterization of his position, but if so...disagreeing isn't a rebuttal..and thus doesn't help anyone to draw closer to a mutual understanding or consensus." He's not trying to argue here, just clarifying where we both stand on the issue. I corrected him where applicable. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 521	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:18:00 - [189] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: If you've been keeping up with the argument over the last few weeks and several threads, you'd read many opposing any MU or tier locks are because they firmly believe proto gear is not a factor or not as big of a factor as other things like: newbro knowledge, some say squads hurt this game the most, others say its scrubs who don't know how to play, most just tell you to "git gud". Oh...well, I find most arguments you mentioned just as counter productive as the kinds of rhetoric I have been playing devil's advocate with in this thread. I don't think that it's impossible that tutorials could play a larger factor than eliminating any power gap between proto and militia gear..but I'm completely open to information that contradicts that opinion and thus changing it in the wake of new information. But that's always been me. You probably are a little jaded from all the idiots you've been responding to. I'm maddeningly logical...I really couldn't care who's right...I only care what's right and that conclusions are well reasoned...not promoted under a banner of 'shoddy gobang' arguments. And to that I applaud you. What I'm seeing is: We have minor tangible data to understand gear/performance disparity and the relationship with new players. We have no tangible evidence or data to work with in regards to helping new players learn the game or play the game better. I'm not building a foundation for the next church of Jesus Christ on those numbers, but I am aware they are the only real attempt at understanding the performance disparity and all the newbro posts complaining about people being too strong for them. Again, I'm not defining my argument with those numbers but they are helping me make an argument. If this was in reverse and some how we had statistics on player skill, newbro knowledge/retention rate and conversely no data on TTK or KDR then I would most likely be on the side of the argument that has data. Even if it is minor and not without flaws.
DeathwindRising Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:19:00 - [190] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. i usually run apex suits with standard weapons. i still manage double digit kills and single digit deaths, and players still leave matches. it doesnt matter if it's proto or not, a stomp is a stomp. good players will still be good, and experienced vets will almost always beat new players. how do you fix differences in experience?

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:20:00 - [191] - Quote @ Zatara If the proto advantage is largely psychological, hanging motivational "you can do it" posters in newbro merc quarters might actually help. We can't know until we try and measure effect, right? The hard part will be to find a way to quantify the effects of the "you can do it" posters; this is the only way we'll be able to know if they're working. We'll need a separate but similar system of metrics for tracking newbro knowledge. Otherwise, we won't know if the tutorials are working, and such a system might produce data that "demonstrates the impact SP and Isk wealth has on NPE in comparison to the effects of simply being unknowledgable of mechanics." Very Important Before doing anything which might upset the status quo and/or affect veterans, we need to devise quantitative systems for measuring qualitative effects. Sorry, newbros. This is going to take some time. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 523	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:23:00 - [192] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: No one is saying "proto suits are the problem". We are saying its a problem to let the MOST WELL EQUIPPED go against the LEAST WELL EQUIPPED. That is the ISSUE. Can we talk about the issue and stop mincing words? Good god. You aren't even arguing, you just keep spamming Shawns post like its your own. That, and using anecdotal evidence of your own, while discounting all the others. And as for your issue, I've already said my part about it. I want a better academy, and higher base skills. Issue solved. All CCP has to do is make it. Until then, learn to play better, that's all you can do. Skill is all that can help you now. Or you could just leave matches 24/7, because that will help. Lol spamming Shauns as if its my own? That's why I quote him and give credit in threads started with it? Thanks for the jab though man. And I argue that meta locks or tier locks are a better solution. I've said this countless times across many threads, so if it seems like I'm "not arguing" its because these threads are constantly derailed by trolls or people who come to mince words instead of work on a solution. I get along just fine in games, thanks for your concern though. This is more in response to the weekly of not daily newbro ragequit post. I couldn't understand why so many people felt the same way and it wasn't a well discussed topic within the current community. That's why these threads have come to exist. Not because I'm having trouble in games. I just akled into my first proto suit, mods and weapons. So I'm doing just fine, thanks though bro. Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:24:00 - [193] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Don't put words in my mouth. The STD-PRO gap is definite, the ADV-PRO gap is small. Agreed. I'd like to see the former narrowed when and where possible until such time that newbros can afford to field ADV gear. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:25:00 - [194] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: And to that I applaud you. What I'm seeing is: We have minor tangible data to understand gear/performance disparity and the relationship with new players. We have no tangible evidence or data to work with in regards to helping new players learn the game or play the game better. I'm not building a foundation for the next church of Jesus Christ on those numbers, but I am aware they are the only real attempt at understanding the performance disparity and all the newbro posts complaining about people being too strong for them. Again, I'm not defining my argument with those numbers but they are helping me make an argument. If this was in reverse and some how we had statistics on player skill, newbro knowledge/retention rate and conversely no data on TTK or KDR then I would most likely be on the side of the argument that has data. Even if it is minor and not without flaws. Which is why we need more data...not more conclusions. You don't draw conclusions on the faintest of data...you use that data to stake out some possibilities and then inquire for more data to see if the theory continues to hold true...or if the premise becomes murky because it's conflicting...or the premise has to be repurposed or manipulated for the data to fit...or the data manipulated to fit the premise. Which is exactly where I'm at...if newbro tutorials aren't worth doing...then I'd be mighty surprised but ultimately satisfied with whatever course nets the highest returns/proves most worthy and efficacious. So perhaps we should be exploring what types of data would be relevant for proving differing kinds of propositions. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:28:00 - [195] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy. Considering the vast number of statements I've endured from you that aren't much different, I'd avoid hypocrisy and cut him a little slack. But that's just my advice. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
byte modal 281	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:30:00 - [196] - Quote LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck! Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation! You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon? ...for what it's worth. kitten bacon taco (nom)
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 523	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:33:00 - [197] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: And to that I applaud you. What I'm seeing is: We have minor tangible data to understand gear/performance disparity and the relationship with new players. We have no tangible evidence or data to work with in regards to helping new players learn the game or play the game better. I'm not building a foundation for the next church of Jesus Christ on those numbers, but I am aware they are the only real attempt at understanding the performance disparity and all the newbro posts complaining about people being too strong for them. Again, I'm not defining my argument with those numbers but they are helping me make an argument. If this was in reverse and some how we had statistics on player skill, newbro knowledge/retention rate and conversely no data on TTK or KDR then I would most likely be on the side of the argument that has data. Even if it is minor and not without flaws. Which is why we need more data...not more conclusions. You don't draw conclusions on the faintest of data...you use that data to stake out some possibilities and then inquire for more data to see if the theory continues to hold true...or if the premise becomes murky because it's conflicting...or the premise has to be repurposed or manipulated for the data to fit...or the data manipulated to fit the premise. Which is exactly where I'm at...if newbro tutorials aren't worth doing...then I'd be mighty surprised but ultimately satisfied with whatever course nets the highest returns/proves most worthy and efficacious. So perhaps we should be exploring what types of data would be relevant for proving differing kinds of propositions. I think tutorials are definitely an asset worth improving. If we follow the same example Shaun did, but with every possible gear/suit/weapon combination we could find out the effective performance disparity between any level of suit, load out and skill build. This would admittedly be a ridiculous amount of calculations, but I have a feeling the numbers will average out to something similar in the initial data. Give or take 10%-20% variance. I don't know how we can quanitify player skill / Newbro mentality / individual knowledge to help us understand if tutorials and newbros playing the game better is actually the solution.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 523	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:33:00 - [198] - Quote byte modal wrote: LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck! Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation! You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon? ...for what it's worth. I felt like the only one. I'm not alone. Thank jeebus.
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 523	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:34:00 - [199] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy. Considering the vast number of statements I've endured from you that aren't much different, I'd avoid hypocrisy and cut him a little slack. But that's just my advice. Care to quote me?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:36:00 - [200] - Quote byte modal wrote: LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck! Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation! You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon? ...for what it's worth. Veteran 514. Don't want change? Obfuscate facts and issues, then insist that impossible questions be answered before any action is taken. Voila! Status Quo maintained. Dropsuit Usage Rates

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:38:00 - [201] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: No one is saying "proto suits are the problem". We are saying its a problem to let the MOST WELL EQUIPPED go against the LEAST WELL EQUIPPED. That is the ISSUE. Can we talk about the issue and stop mincing words? Good god. You aren't even arguing, you just keep spamming Shawns post like its your own. That, and using anecdotal evidence of your own, while discounting all the others. And as for your issue, I've already said my part about it. I want a better academy, and higher base skills. Issue solved. All CCP has to do is make it. Until then, learn to play better, that's all you can do. Skill is all that can help you now. Or you could just leave matches 24/7, because that will help. Lol spamming Shauns as if its my own? That's why I quote him and give credit in threads started with it? Thanks for the jab though man. And I argue that meta locks or tier locks are a better solution. I've said this countless times across many threads, so if it seems like I'm "not arguing" its because these threads are constantly derailed by trolls or people who come to mince words instead of work on a solution. I get along just fine in games, thanks for your concern though. This is more in response to the weekly if not daily newbro ragequit post. I couldn't understand why so many people felt the same way and it wasn't a well discussed topic within the current community. That's why these threads have come to exist. Not because I'm having trouble in games. I just skilled into my first proto suit, mods and weapons. So I'm doing just fine, thanks though bro. Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy. I'll concede the underlined, it is properly cited. However, You've posted that thing 3 times in the last four pages, discussing none of it yourself, just asking people what they thought on it. We've been discussing that post. In various ways and avenues. That being said, If losing some respect from you gets you to formulate and argue your own ideas, I'd consider it worth. I'm not going to tiptoe around your feelings, and I've never really had to worry about PR. Most people have come to the conclusion that I'm critical, but fair. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:40:00 - [202] - Quote How about we gather data on the prevalence of each suit? Or the variance in an average match in sp and gear ran? What if we tried to ascertain if there's a general consensus at which players become isk efficient...and whether that isk efficiency allows them to run proto and advanced with regularity or whether invariably they are reduced back to militia suits? There's ** tons of ideas I'm sure could be conceived that would prove useful in drawing healthy and reasoned conclusions. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:40:00 - [203] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. i usually run apex suits with standard weapons. i still manage double digit kills and single digit deaths, and players still leave matches. it doesnt matter if it's proto or not, a stomp is a stomp. good players will still be good, and experienced vets will almost always beat new players. how do you fix differences in experience? ELO based matchmaking. Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:43:00 - [204] - Quote byte modal wrote: LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck! Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation! You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon? ...for what it's worth. Right! Exactly you read my mind The more we stop insulting and generally casting shade on others and focus more on what they are actually trying to get across...the more we're going to learn. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:46:00 - [205] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: ELO based matchmaking. Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU. Short of performance improvements, taking action toward improving NPE is our best bet at improving headcounts. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 28	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:48:00 - [206] - Quote Matchmaking is bad NPE is bad we are all bad /thread Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 524	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:56:00 - [207] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. i usually run apex suits with standard weapons. i still manage double digit kills and single digit deaths, and players still leave matches. it doesnt matter if it's proto or not, a stomp is a stomp. good players will still be good, and experienced vets will almost always beat new players. how do you fix differences in experience? ELO based matchmaking. Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU. But what if the only restriction was on the highest of MUs? As in really stacked players couldn't bring those kits in. Just two tiers, I don't even know what the highest meta level possible is, but I imagine a reasonable cutoff could be found. And it doesn't separate the player base, just what gear you can use. Playing FW, PC or high end pubs? Play to the max! Just participating in casual pubs? You can still play at the highest cutoff point, definitely gaining your earned advantage over other players. But at least the newbros won't have to contend against the highest MU, wealthiest players onna regular basis in the same way they do now. This isn't a fix all end all solution. But for a declining game without much support I see it as an easy fix that might go a long way in helping new players feel at home and not totally out classed. It also wouldn't require major modifications to the game. That's why I support tiered gameplay. Not across all levels, just basically reserving the highest end gear for higher end play. I just got my first proto suit and I love feeling so powerful. But I would not mind reserving it for FW, PC and high end pubs. Adv. Gear is just as fun, especially if you're fighting similarly geared opponents! Same with proto! A fair fight is always more fun to me, especially when I lose to someone geared like myself. It's a great learning experience to understand you were on even ground and you fcked up.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 19:00:00 - [208] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: How about we gather data on the prevalence of each suit? Or the variance in an average match in sp and gear ran? What if we tried to ascertain if there's a general consensus at which players become isk efficient...and whether that isk efficiency allows them to run proto and advanced with regularity or whether invariably they are reduced back to militia suits? There's **** tons of ideas I'm sure could be conceived that would prove useful in drawing healthy and reasoned conclusions. Sounds like another stall tactic aimed at preserving the status quo. We've waxed lyrical long enough. I say we take action and improve NPE while there's still time. * There's a significant power gap between STD and PRO. Let's stop pretending it isn't there and stop wasting time trying to measure it. Instead, let's focus on finding ways to narrow it. * Newbros can't afford ADV gear. Let's tweak pub pay, implement underdog bonuses, etc. It is better we pay them too much than leave them in the redline or lose them for good. * Newbros need more initial training. Let's give them more SP upfront, extend the Academy duration and give them a respec on graduation. Why not? * Newbros need tutorials. Let's build simple tutorials into Achievements 1.0. "Complete X task, Y times, and get Z rewards. Here's how." * Newbros need mentors. Let's systematically put them in touch with D-UNI, The Learning Coalition, etc. Or perhaps add a mentor section in squad finder and devise a system which rewards trainer/trainee participation. * The power and wealth gaps which separate vets from newbros is too wide. Let's come up with creative, performance-driven means by which to narrow it. Example. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 526	Posted - 2015.10.30 19:10:00 - [209] - Quote I think something to remember is that yes, vets had it rough. Lots of game breaking bugs, badly implemented features and rough characters did not make growing up in Dust easy. But the game is dying and I don't think now is the time to hold rites of passage so dearly. Era of the newbro, while seemingly unfair to some, might be the only thing left to do with this game. Last influx of cash from new players to thrust us into #PortDust514Now....
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 19:14:00 - [210] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: I think something to remember is that yes, vets had it rough. Lots of game breaking bugs, badly implemented features and rough characters did not make growing up in Dust easy. But the game is dying and I don't think now is the time to hold rites of passage so dearly. Era of the newbro, while seemingly unfair to some, might be the only thing left to do with this game. Last influx of cash from new players to thrust us into #PortDust514Now.... Agreed. #PortDust won't solve NPE problems. If these issues can be addressed and resolved today, why kick the can down the road? I say we own them and fix them so our predecessors won't have to. Dropsuit Usage Rates

Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 526	Posted - 2015.10.30 19:21:00 - [211] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: How about we gather data on the prevalence of each suit? Or the variance in an average match in sp and gear ran? What if we tried to ascertain if there's a general consensus at which players become isk efficient...and whether that isk efficiency allows them to run proto and advanced with regularity or whether invariably they are reduced back to militia suits? There's **** tons of ideas I'm sure could be conceived that would prove useful in drawing healthy and reasoned conclusions. Sounds like another stall tactic aimed at preserving the status quo. We've waxed lyrical long enough. I say we take action and improve NPE while there's still time. * There's a significant power gap between STD and PRO. Let's stop pretending it isn't there and stop wasting time trying to measure it. Instead, let's focus on finding ways to narrow it. * Newbros can't afford ADV gear. Let's tweak pub pay, implement underdog bonuses, etc. It is better we pay them too much than leave them in the redline or lose them for good. * Newbros need more initial training. Let's give them more SP upfront, extend the Academy duration and give them a respec on graduation. Why not? * Newbros need tutorials. Let's build simple tutorials into Achievements 1.0. "Complete X task, Y times, and get Z rewards. Here's how to do X." * Newbros need mentors. On arrival, let's systematically put them in touch with D-UNI, The Learning Coalition, etc via NPC mail or chat channel or whatever. Or perhaps even add a mentor section in squad finder and devise a simple system which rewards trainer/trainee participation. * The power and wealth gaps which separate vets from newbros is too wide. Let's come up with creative, performance-driven means by which to narrow it. Example. Adding "Missions" would be a huge asset in helping new players get into the support roles that they so often miss or never participate in because they are tuned to COD slay slay slay. Dust is different. Give em starter fits appropriate to each round of Missions. First would be a general Assault role, maybe a scanner or uplink set of Missions with a few kill/assists and hack goals. Move on to a basic logi. Injector, repair tool and maybe scanner or hives. Must complete X amount of revives, scans, resupplies. This is a far off idea as it would require a ton of work on CCPs end, but it would be awesome. Imagine if there were Missions for most major roles in Dust, you could complete them at any time but they would give you large amounts of isk and SP once completed and maybe even some starter adv. gear with no restrictions. I digress, lot of good ideas for this game. I hope at least devs have been stalking us and stealing them.
DeathwindRising Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.10.30 19:53:00 - [212] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. i usually run apex suits with standard weapons. i still manage double digit kills and single digit deaths, and players still leave matches. it doesnt matter if it's proto or not, a stomp is a stomp. good players will still be good, and experienced vets will almost always beat new players. how do you fix differences in experience? ELO based matchmaking. Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU. But what if the only restriction was on the highest of MUs? As in really stacked players couldn't bring those kits in. Just two tiers, I don't even know what the highest meta level possible is, but I imagine a reasonable cutoff could be found. And it doesn't separate the player base, just what gear you can use. Playing FW, PC or high end pubs? Play to the max! Just participating in casual pubs? You can still play at the highest cutoff point, definitely gaining your earned advantage over other players. But at least the newbros won't have to contend against the highest MU, wealthiest players onna regular basis in the same way they do now. This isn't a fix all end all solution. But for a declining game without much support I see it as an easy fix that might go a long way in helping new players feel at home and not totally out classed. It also wouldn't require major modifications to the game. That's why I support tiered gameplay. Not across all levels, just basically reserving the highest end gear for higher end play. I just got my first proto suit and I love feeling so powerful. But I would not mind reserving it for FW, PC and high end pubs. Adv. Gear is just as fun, especially if you're fighting similarly geared opponents! Same with proto! A fair fight is always more fun to me, especially when I lose to someone geared like myself. It's a great learning experience to understand you were on even ground and you fcked up. interesting. is it possible to use a characters current learned skills to calculate a highest potential meta level? then we can use that in matches to limit the meta level to the average highest potential meta level. we could use this for pubs.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:03:00 - [213] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers? Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps Protests players leaving games New players say it isn't fun Vet tells them to git gud scrub New player leaves game It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now. i usually run apex suits with standard weapons. i still manage double digit kills and single digit deaths, and players still leave matches. it doesnt matter if it's proto or not, a stomp is a stomp. good players will still be good, and experienced vets will almost always beat new players. how do you fix differences in experience? ELO based matchmaking. Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU. But what if the only restriction was on the highest of MUs? As in really stacked players couldn't bring those kits in. Just two tiers, I don't even know what the highest meta level possible is, but I imagine a reasonable cutoff could be found. And it doesn't separate the player base, just what gear you can use. Playing FW, PC or high end pubs? Play to the max! Just participating in casual pubs? You can still play at the highest cutoff point, definitely gaining your earned advantage over other players. But at least the newbros won't have to contend against the highest MU, wealthiest players onna regular basis in the same way they do now. This isn't a fix all end all solution. But for a declining game without much support I see it as an easy fix that might go a long way in helping new players feel at home and not totally out classed. It also wouldn't require major modifications to the game. That's why I support tiered gameplay. Not across all levels, just basically reserving the highest end gear for higher end play. I just got my first proto suit and I love feeling so powerful. But I would not mind reserving it for FW, PC and high end pubs. Adv. Gear is just as fun, especially if you're fighting similarly geared opponents! Same with proto! A fair fight is always more fun to me, especially when I lose to someone geared like myself. It's a great learning experience to understand you were on even ground and you fcked up. interesting. is it possible to use a characters current learned skills to calculate a highest potential meta level? then we can use that in matches to limit the meta level to the average highest potential meta level. we could use this for pubs. Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:25:00 - [214] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: -SNIP- This is the rabble people make to convince others that whatever paltry 'evidence' justifies their heavy handed solutions is enough. * There's an insignificant power gap between ADV and PRO. Let's stop pretending there's more there and stop wasting time trying to suggest that 99% of the playerbase play in militia ** fits vs vets in officer gear. I could go on but I tire of rebuttling "shoddy gobang's" like the one I posed above. When there's more data to be digested or conversations more worthy than the mostly inept facade being propogated in comments like these, I'm sure I'll get pinged. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:27:00 - [215] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Ayuzawa wrote: Why argue with an idiot? So ... now I'm an idiot? Would love to know what data and metrics were used in your drawing that conclusion. Or are data and metrics only required when others are drawing conclusions? Lol. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:29:00 - [216] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ayuzawa wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Why argue with an idiot? So ... now I'm an idiot? Would love to know what data and metrics were used in drawing that conclusion. Or are data and metrics only required when others are drawing conclusions? Lol. Opinions =/= Facts And for the record...she called you an idiot in that instance...my quoted comments were stating that the playerbase aren't idiots. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:38:00 - [217] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: -SNIP- This is the rabble people make to convince others that whatever paltry 'evidence' justifies their heavy handed solutions is enough. * There's an insignificant power gap between ADV and PRO. Let's stop pretending there's more there and stop wasting time trying to suggest that 99% of the playerbase play in militia ** fits vs vets in officer gear. I could go on but I tire of rebuttling "shoddy gobang's" like the one I posed above. When there's more data to be digested or conversations more worthy than the mostly inept facade being propogated in comments like these, I'm sure I'll get pinged. Here's what you snipped: Quote:** * There's a significant power gap between STD and PRO. Let's stop pretending it isn't there and stop wasting time trying to measure it. Instead, let's focus on finding ways to narrow it. * Newbros can't afford ADV gear. Let's tweak pub pay, implement underdog bonuses, etc. It is better we pay them too much than leave them in the redline or lose them for good. * Newbros need more initial training. Let's give them more SP upfront, extend the Academy duration and give them a respec on graduation. Why not? * Newbros need tutorials. Let's build simple tutorials into Achievements 1.0. "Complete X task, Y times, and get Z rewards. Here's how to do X." * Newbros need mentors. On arrival, let's systematically put them in touch with D-UNI, The Learning Coalition, etc via NPC mail or chat channel or whatever. Or perhaps even add a mentor section in squad finder and devise a simple system which rewards trainer/trainee participation. * The power and wealth gaps which separate vets from newbros is too wide. Let's come up with creative, performance-driven means by which to narrow it. Example. ^ Every single one of these would have a greater impact on improving NPE than anything you've suggested in this thread. We can talk about improving NPE all day long and cook up all manner of interesting metric to study, but at the end of the day NPE will remain unhealthy and talking about it won't solve a thing. We've been talking about it for 3 years. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 543	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:49:00 - [218] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: -SNIP- * There's an insignificant power gap between ADV and PRO. Let's stop pretending there's more there and stop wasting time trying to suggest that 99% of the playerbase play in militia **** fits vs vets in officer gear. In anti-infantry weapons maybe (as they scale 5% per tier), but in terms of modules and equipment...the gap is not what I would call insignificant on a relative scale (although it may appear to be so on an absolute scale). Modules seem to have a mode scaling from ADV to PRO of about 33%...I'll start making the spreadsheet to do have all the actual comparisons out (for instance, Ferros and reactive provide about 33% scaling from ADV to PRO, but PRO is about 53% better than STD on Ferros, and 58% better (in terms of raw HP) and 200% better in terms of repair. The total fitting power of suits will be harder to speak on until I have all the modules input onto a spreadsheet. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. #PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.30 22:50:00 - [219] - Quote ... or is it your plan to drag the issue out indefinitely? Because that's what it sounds like: "Best we change absolutely nothing for now, Mr Newbro. But if it makes you feel better we can talk about things we might change. Just don't get too specific! And please don't suggest anything that might upset the status quo or affect veterans. Most importantly, if you're going to talk, you'd better talk how we tell you to talk and about what we tell you to talk or you'll regret it! Maybe someday down the road, we can revisit your NPE concerns. If and only if, of course, Rattati happens to produce the data and metrics we've requested. You see, we're at a stalemate of sorts; the efficiency data Rattati already gave us isn't good enough to help us come to any conclusions. What we need is data that helps us better understand the inner workings of the newbro mind. Because that's where the problem is. Not with the gear gap. PS: Please don't bring up the gear gap, Mr Newbro. In fact, it's probably best you strike the phrase from your mind. The gear gap isn't real, and you can't prove otherwise. So don't mention it. " More Productive Portion of Post: I've already conceded that the gear gap between ADV and PRO is less substantial than the gear gap between STD and PRO. That's obvious, and it's supported by Rattati's efficiency data. The point remains, however, that newbros are more likely running standard gear than advanced gear as they can't afford to reliably field advanced gear. No, I don't have the ability to poll newbro wallets and prove my point. But my inability to prove the point doesn't make it any less probable. Assume that the average advanced loadout costs 50k. Assume that average pub pay for Skirm is a very generous 200k and Ambush is a very generous 150k. Now, sign off of Destiny and onto Dust, play some matches, and look at the leaderboards. Are the majority of players are dying more than 3-4 times per battle? PS: Never claimed that 99% of encounters are MLT vs OFC. That's sillytalk, breh. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 530	Posted - 2015.10.30 23:12:00 - [220] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. Ok but you are going to be limited in modules. Just because you can use certain levels of gear doesn't mean you won't have to sacrifice things to fit into tier. And meta levels van be adjusted. Just because someone can make an officer weapon on a suit for around 40 meta doesn't mean tier locking is now invalidated. We just need to work on the balance of it... A meta 40 suit with an officer weapon will have to sacrifice things to get that meta. That is the tier system working! If you are forced to pick and choose what equipment to run and you can't stack all the best stuff as normal... It's working! I'd rather face a 40 meta suit with an officer weapon than a full officer suit with officer weapon and all complex mods.

Kail Mako Capital Acquisitions LLC 181	Posted - 2015.10.31 00:13:00 - [221] - Quote As far as I see it, the best solution will be extending the Academy. My suggestion is would be until they have somewhere around 5-7 million SP. Upon graduation you can give them one free respect. This will solve 90% of the problems brought up here. -The newbros don't have enough training.- They'll now have more. -The newbros don't know what to spec into!- That's what the respec is for. -The newbros have to fight people running full proto gear in STD!- Well, with 5-7 mil SP I hope the newbros weren't so dumb they didn't at least get one ADV/Proto suit and gun. -The newbros don't have the game/map knowledge vets have!- By the time they graduate academy they should have at least a month's worth of play. That's enough to deeply familiarize yourself with the game. -The gap between STD, and Proto is too high!- No longer a problem. Since everyone in the academy will be running ADV or lower, and once they get out they should be able to run ADV consistently. -The newbros can't afford to run all ADV!- That's largely dependent on skill. By the time they get out of the Academy, they should have a nice amount of ISK saved up. If we think the average STD suit costs 20k, and they are able to get an average payout of 200k then they should be able to die ten times. Very rarely does that happen. They should have enough ISK saved up to consistently run ADV gear by the time they graduate the Academy Officially recognized for advancing the science of getting bent.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 945	Posted - 2015.10.31 16:36:00 - [222] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: -SNIP- This is the rabble people make to convince others that whatever paltry 'evidence' justifies their heavy handed solutions is enough. * There's an insignificant power gap between ADV and PRO. Let's stop pretending there's more there and stop wasting time trying to suggest that 99% of the playerbase play in militia ** fits vs vets in officer gear. I could go on but I tire of rebuttling "shoddy gobang's" like the one I posed above. When there's more data to be digested or conversations more worthy than the mostly inept facade being propogated in comments like these, I'm sure I'll get pinged. Here are the solutions you snipped: Quote:** * There's a significant power gap between STD and PRO. Let's stop pretending it isn't there and stop wasting time trying to measure it. Instead, let's focus on finding ways to narrow it. * Newbros can't afford ADV gear. Let's tweak pub pay, implement underdog bonuses, etc. It is better we pay them too much than leave them in the redline or lose them for good. * Newbros need more initial training. Let's give them more SP upfront, extend the Academy duration and give them a respec on graduation. Why not? * Newbros need tutorials. Let's build simple tutorials into Achievements 1.0. "Complete X task, Y times, and get Z rewards. Here's how to do X." * Newbros need mentors. On arrival, let's systematically put them in touch with D-UNI, The Learning Coalition, etc via NPC mail or chat channel or whatever. Or perhaps even add a mentor section in squad finder and devise a simple system which rewards trainer/trainee participation. * The power and wealth gaps which separate vets from newbros is too wide. Let's come up with creative, performance-driven means by which to narrow it. Example. ^ Every single one of these would have a greater impact on improving NPE than anything you've suggested in this thread. We can talk about improving NPE all day long and cook up all manner of interesting metric to study, but at the end of the day NPE will remain unhealthy and our talking about it will not have changed a thing. We've been talking about improving NPE for 3+ years. How much more time do you need? His words keep getting bigger and bigger, as if esoteric rhetoric alone makes one right. Sesquipedalian loquaciousness helps none of us who are actually trying to improve NPE. Best to ignore, and focus on a rock solid roadmap for our newbros. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.31 17:06:00 - [223] - Quote Devadander wrote: ... and focus on a rock solid roadmap for our newbros. If such a thing exists, I'd love to see it. If it doesn't, maybe we can pitch in and help CPM put one together. :: Pokes Dennie :: Dropsuit Usage Rates
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 945	Posted - 2015.10.31 17:08:00 - [224] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Devadander wrote: ... and focus on a rock solid roadmap for our newbros. If such a thing exists, I'd love to see it. If it doesn't, maybe we can pitch in and help CPM put one together. :: Pokes Dennie :: I'm in love with 99% of the ideas in this thread. Just need a final polish really. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
DeathwindRising Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.10.31 17:28:00 - [225] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. we can adjust the meta level of weapons yes? make officer weapons carry meta level of something restrictively high. then you cant make viable low meta level fits with high meta level weapons
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 950	Posted - 2015.10.31 17:30:00 - [226] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. we can adjust the meta level of weapons yes? make officer weapons carry meta level of something restrictively high. then you cant make viable low meta level fits with high meta level weapons Tier lock solves the officer gank fit problem. Was like a week long process to get people off meta, and onto tier.... Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.31 17:40:00 - [227] - Quote Devadander wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. we can adjust the meta level of weapons yes? make officer weapons carry meta level of something restrictively high. then you cant make viable low meta level fits with high meta level weapons Tier lock solves the officer gank fit problem. Was like a week long process to get people off meta, and onto tier.... Link? I must've missed that discussion, as I'd still default to favoring Meta locks over Tier locks. At first glance, seems it'd be easier to implement and would leave more room for loadout flexibility. Deathwind solved the officer gear problem. What else am I missing? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Daemonn Adima Y.A.M.A.H 534	Posted - 2015.10.31 19:56:00 - [228] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Devadander wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. we can adjust the meta level of weapons yes? make officer weapons carry meta level of something restrictively high. then you cant make viable low meta level fits with high meta level weapons Tier lock solves the officer gank fit problem. Was like a week long process to get people off meta, and onto tier.... Link? I must've missed that discussion, as I'd still default to favoring Meta locks over Tier locks. At first glance, seems it'd be easier to implement and would leave more room for loadout flexibility. Deathwind solved the officer gear problem. What else am I missing? That's what I've been getting at. The easiest variable to change in terms of tiering or ELO matchmaking is meta level. Tweak whatever items that shouldn't be in the casual bracket. Anything goes in the "pro" bracket. Players won't be divided, gear will be. If players have access to proto and officer, then they by default have access to std. and adv. gear of the same type. If you refuse to run anything but pro/ofc and queue times are slightly longer for the "pro" bracket, that's your choice. Throw on max meta for casual bracket if you don't wanna wait and enjoy. The pro bracket will likely have less people in it, but it will serve as a real challenge and fair fight for those who do participate. I can see some objections from people who want to have a continued advantage over newer players, arguing that they earned the right to stomp. I just don't think this is what CCP envisioned as their "end game".
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 14	Posted - 2015.10.31 21:50:00 - [229] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. I'd rather face a 40 meta suit with an officer weapon than a full officer suit with officer weapon and all complex mods. And I'd rather just have skill based matchmaking. This is a sandbox game. I don't like being told what I can't or can run. My biggest problem with 90% of these discussions is that it always ends with people trying to take choice away from the players. You guys are trying to balance by taking things away, which is deconstructive to a sandbox game. Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_; Wanna play EVE? 30 day trial here
TIGER SHARK1501 Savage Bullet RUST415 559	Posted - 2015.10.31 22:01:00 - [230] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Meta Level locking is a bad idea. You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago. we can adjust the meta level of weapons yes? make officer weapons carry meta level of something restrictively high. then you cant make viable low meta level fits with high meta level weapons I say make a separate game mode like skirmish where only suits, weapons, and modules that can work are Basic. Protection for noobs and a haven for those tired of the stomps.

Vicious Minotaur 3	Posted - 2015.10.31 22:26:00 - [231] - Quote All this talk of meta locks and tier locks... And here I am, wondering why lower tier gear even exists... Comparatively speaking, basic and advanced gear are less fun than prototype. Why are newer/mediocre players forced into using less fun gear? Make a mode with only Militia grade gear available? Congrats. Certain fits are not available. Melee fits with Militia mods? How fun... Logistics with basic equipment? Good god, that is unfun. How about TAC ARs? No longer available in certain modes because they are advanced. Same with Assault Forges. Meta/tier locks don't do much, methinks, with regards to FUN.... But don't mind me, I'm a Minotaur. Minotaur Master Race Forcibly penetrating humans since ca 84 BCE. ( -í° -£-û -í°)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 17	Posted - 2015.10.31 22:53:00 - [232] - Quote I'm with Ghost and Minotaur on Meta/Tier Locks. Would prefer match quality to be improved by other means. Dislike the idea of partitioning the playerbase and/or limiting fits, so long as other options are available. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 956	Posted - 2015.11.01 20:35:00 - [233] - Quote We only need one mode, and it can be a copy so original stays open. New players need a high sec so they stay around long enough to be able to protostomp too. At this point, people who are against a tier/meta locked mode are just wanting to continue stomping noobs out of the game. Just my opinion, but I won't change it. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~


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