Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledges problems and/or proposes solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong ... that's the problem" and "all newbros need is more training ... that's the solution".

Maybe he's right on some level, but other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap which separate vets from newbros -- certainly play a part and certainly are not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong.

At this point all we can do is willingly die for the newbros or mentor them. It's not up to us to change the NPE. It's up to CCP.

Sadly, the vibe I'm picking up appears to be:

"If there are any problems with NPE, those problems should be blamed squarely on the newbros themselves. They must be doing it wrong. And tell 'em to quit complaining about it; pretty sure we had it harder back in the day.

PS: Please, CCP, can we get some penalties put into place to keep newbros from leaving battle when we farm them?"

Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledged problems and/or proposed solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong; that's the problem" and "newbros need more training; that's the solution".

Maybe he's right on some level, but a number of other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap -- are playing a part and are certainly not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong.

A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now*. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point.

Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk.

*: Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing

Citation needed. What data has Rattati shared with us that says the average active player of Dust 514 has 100,000,000 lifetime SP? Please link it, I'd like to take a look.
Officer spam is a problem. I will agree with you on that. Hopefully the recent change to the experimental lab will help curtail the officer stomping a bit.
No, I can deny it actually. A new player is capable of insta-gibbing people with a PLC or SG. They can provide suppression fire with MDs and LRs. They can chuck grenades that now do proto-tier damage at all tiers and ruin someone's day.

They have tools available to them that can make a difference in a battle.

If you want to help a new player then squad with them, give them advice on fittings, if you are feeling generous then give them some ISK. THAT is how you help new players. Not telling them to tuck tail and run at the first sight of a difficult battle.

:: snip ::

Player behavior is a funny thing. New players are told to "git gud" and vets are called losers for using proto. Vets aren't (not all, just the tryhard corps) willing to change their playstyle despite the impact on NPE. New players cannot just "git gud" and attain proto instantly. So in answer to stubborn vets, clutching on to proto for dear life, we will not participate in games with you. We may not be able to avoid it entirely. We can however leave games that will not net us any SP or hardly any isk.

Personally with the attitude of most "vets" I will now encourage noobs in leaving games. Between insults, being told to git gud or for new players to quit if they dont like it is just unacceptable. So I realized this is probably the most effective way to fight against proto stompers when you have low SP. They refuse to use any other kit except the best, then we'll simply refuse to fight them and find a new game.

Enjoy less kills, worse games, less isk and less SP. Meanwhile I don't mind leaving 2-3 games in a row where I'd only get 2-3 kills and hardly any isk or SP. As a new player it is far more worth your time to find a good game instead of playing against proto stacked squads.

Maybe with enough lopsided boring redlines these corps will realize what's up. Or the cries for matchmaking will become so deafening that meta locks or another tiericide option will be sooner explored.

What's worse to low SP players: leaving a couple games so as to have a great game, or playing 2-3 redline games where you hardly acquire SP and isk while burning through isk getting farmed? Even using a free fit doesn't somehow make those games worth the time.

I used to think not leaving was honorable or something, but after meeting some of the characters who are always stomping, its has nothing to do with honor or good sportsmanship in those games. It's just plain stupid and at our disadvantage to let them shoot us like fish in a barrel.

In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality.

Why obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. Newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself?

Turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so one could always argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo.

To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks.

Not a popular idea among the vets? Surprise, surprise.

You clearly didn't even read what Z wrote.

You deserve a golf clapand a padded helmet.

You know Ghost started a thread calling for increased starting skills for new bros right?

Of course you didn't, because like Z pointed out, you take anything that isn't complete agreement as complete disagreement.

Congrats on not being helpful at all, keep it up.

Why obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. With time, newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself?

Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a pile of new tutorials. Well, it turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo.

To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks.

Not a popular idea among the vets? Surprise, surprise.

Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a pile of new tutorials. Well, it turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done.

To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks.

What newbros really need are some "you can do it" motivational posters in their merc quarters.

I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong

This is really the gist of what he's contributed.

There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself.

It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized.

The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution.

Why argue with an idiot?

This is really the gist of what he's contributed.

There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself.

It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized.

The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution.

And you don't see the same thing coming from your side of the aisle? No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims.

We give you data to work with and are still met with opinion. Opinion that you all see as set in stone, then claim we won't listen to any other ideas and are manipulating the conversation.

I mean, its really hypocritical at the least.

It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Sure, the KDR data and then TTK data between suits is a BASIC set of examples. But they are examples that illustrate a glaring problem and we have quantified *some* data.

All of the arguments for keeping proto and the game the way it is are opinion based emotional responses from those who firmly believe they are just better players, and that gear does not factor in as a large advantage. Simple data examples would tell us otherwise, if you're not mature enough to look at the problem for what it is then we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims.

I never had the chance to use proto before yesterday. And you guys are ******* drunk if you don't think that power gap is an OBVIOUS advantage and factor in your performance in firefights.

Lol!

I presented 2 examples of newbro experiences...I haven't said that isk gap or other factors aren't playing a part, merely challenging the assertions that don't seem factually based despite being promoted as such.

Who is this "we" and where is their data? because that's what I've been asking for.

Your presumptions that anyone's opinions are set in stone only serve to confirm your own bias...not mine.

Since when has pointing out flawed arguments been tantamount to manipulation of conversation?

Dubious proposition.

Pot, meet kettle.



The difference being...I'm asking for data from which meaningful conclusions can be had.

It's like any number of times in academia when a young grad student finds data that supports his thesis, and then simply refuses to do more research because the more research that's done, the less black and white his grand conclusion becomes.

Hence why those of us who have the faintest idea are far more likely to say "hey this supports my notion...I probably need more data" than "hey this supports my assertions!!! We have the silver bullet let's draw conclusions now!"



Where have people been saying that proto shouldn't be changed or the that NPE shouldn't be improved upon?

It must be someone else, I'm simply wondering who. If it's me feel free to quote where I said this.

Maybe you could point out where people said it's not a factor?

When data needs to be qualified as 'simple' that should indicate as to the strength of any conclusions drawn from it.

I'm sure you feel that everyone who disagrees with you must be immature, motivated by pride under the impressions they simply are better, and must use emotional responses...but the problem here is that this is an emotional response...plain and simple.

You ignore the core of the argument and cherry pick what you want to discredit.

I've seen kids in my Speech 101 class do better than this, and half of them are unprepared and terrified.

That post was entirely dedicated to showing how the data you presented as proof was skewed by in game mechanics.

Not just trying to give new bros a "Pep talk"

The moment someone disagrees with you, you blot out everything else they've ever said/done, and focus on a small part that you disagree with.

That's horrendous arguing.

I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit.

Basic level player:

Armor Plating I
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I

+5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 0
Augmented Ammo 0

+15% damage vs armor

Proto level player:

Armor Plating 5
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5

+25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 5
Augmented Ammo 5

+35% damage vs armor

Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage?

"But that's just the way of New Eden"

This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to.

I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?'

---

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

---

Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear.

Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and;

Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them:
372.5 Shield HP
347.5 Armor HP
and they do:
27.3 HP/round to Shield
43.1 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top.

Now things get nasty
Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them:
407.7 Shield HP
402.5 Armor HP
and they do:
30.45 HP/round to Shield
46.8 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top.


I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon:

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.

Lol not really man. Sure the data we presented is basic. Sure its possibly skewed because it doesn't account for every single factor (which some are not quantifiable, as in player behavior and actual player skill level) BUT it is the only data anyone has this far tried to present.

So from both pieces of data (the KDR gaps and TTK gaps) not a single meaningful conclusion can be drawn?

And my statement about proto wasn't anything more than me sharing MY personal experience. Did I say it was factual data?

You wanna talk about strawmanning and all your fancy conversational trappings, these are semantics. Can we actually talk about the numbers besides "I don't like those numbers, so this data is flawed, no conclusion can be drawn whatsoever... Git gud scrubz!"

Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledged problems and/or proposed solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong; that's the problem" and "newbros need more training; that's the solution".

Maybe he's right on some level, but a number of other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap -- are playing a part and are certainly not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong.

Your examples of newbro experience are not data. They are anectdoal at best.

No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims.