X players are killing the game!

Lets kill the game faster!

Race you suckers to the bottom.

You want real change? Work constructively, not destructively.

Coordination and actual skill Better Gear + More HP > SP.

If you think the old days were harder then now for new players, I wanna have whatever the hell you are smoking...

You missed the point.
I would <3LOVE<3 to run in:
- STD/MLT freebies
- ADV cost-efficient all-rounders
- PC gear with limited LP store weps and EQs
- Try out those officer suits (a week ago I actually fitted and ran my first ever officer suit run - that's a lot because I've had those Balac Ck.0s for two months shy of three years)



So the point is my PRO fittings fill up the roster (with now two cheaper narrow use APEXes). If I try to create another setup you suggested, upon hitting the first 'create new' I get the message "maximum fitting amount reached".
And yes, I do refuse to recreate my tuned fittings daily, and I refuse to spend 2mins in match rebuilding a higher/lower tier suit idle in the MCC.

@ Ghost

Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon.

Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right?

PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability.

Actually, better tutorials, and extending the academy would fix basically everything wrong with NPE. Including TTK. Think about it, if you're in the academy until you get roughly around 5 million SP that means you can come out with proto gear assuming you're not a complete moron. At that point, kicking you into the main game would be fine because the TTK gap would be close to non-existent.

BS.

I get around 400-500k from missions these days. You get a warbarge for another 120k free ISK, and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match.

At 50k a suit, that gives you ~520k to start with, and 200k per match.

If a newbie wants to play 5 matches, that gives him 1.52 Mil ISK to blow (And this is the LOW estimate. That's enough for 30 suits.

That's 6 deaths a match in full ADV gear.

For anyone doing decent, that's more than enough.

Data by itself is nowhere near enough. You seem to be forgetting how Dust works.

No matter what you do, so long as higher tier gear is more expensive, lower KD/R's will ALWAYS gravitate towards the lower end of the spectrum, simply because of the fact that they die so much.

They can't afford to die 20+ times in Proto gear. They would soon be forced out of it due to costs. Same with advanced gear, all the way down to STD.

What about the high end? Players who are really good at the game will naturally gravitate towards the higher end of the spectrum. They can afford to run the higher tier gear due to how little they die, and people who are REALLY good can run it 24/7. There is no "ceiling" for these players. The ones that are good enough to crush 90% of the opposition they meet will almost always run proto gear, simply because they can.

Not only that, but most people LIKE the proto gear. It makes you feel powerful, it looks kick ass, and you feel like you can take on the world with it (Only to realize that a dren shotgun on a BPO suit can ruin your day for the lovely cost of two complex damps). Everyone remembers getting their first proto suit. You WANTED to take your toy out to play. The ones who can afford to run it 24/7 almost always do so, inflating the proto K/DR even higher.

Combining these two causes the phenomenon you see here. The bad players stick to STD because they can't afford to die over and over in higher tier gear, and the better players stick to ADV or higher because they can afford to run it.

Its the nature of EVE and this game. There will always be sharks and fish. Some people simply aren't good enough at FPS games to be sharks. EVE and Dust tackle this by giving you SUPPORT roles, such as the Scout and Logistics. With enough game knowledge, you don't have to slay people constantly to be a benefit. Running around as a scout, hacking points and killing uplinks and going 2/5, is FAR more beneficial than a guy going 6/20 trying to meat grind.

KDR isn't the answer to everything. You get ISK based off of WARPOINTS, not kills. You get more for WINNING, not losing.

P-T-F-O

In all honesty, half the power of PRO comes from mentality.

You ignore the core of the argument and cherry pick what you want to discredit.

I've seen kids in my Speech 101 class do better than this, and half of them are unprepared and terrified.

That post was entirely dedicated to showing how the data you presented as proof was skewed by in game mechanics.

Not just trying to give new bros a "Pep talk"

The moment someone disagrees with you, you blot out everything else they've ever said/done, and focus on a small part that you disagree with.

That's horrendous arguing.

Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any.

"Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy."
Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap.

"The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear."
Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys.

"Noobs should PTFO."
Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear.

"Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear."
OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us?

"There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological."
Gonna have to disagree with this one.

---

Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread.

You aren't even arguing, you just keep spamming Shawns post like its your own.

That, and using anecdotal evidence of your own, while discounting all the others.

And as for your issue, I've already said my part about it. I want a better academy, and higher base skills. Issue solved.

All CCP has to do is make it. Until then, learn to play better, that's all you can do. Skill is all that can help you now.

Or you could just leave matches 24/7, because that will help.

I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers?

*Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps*
*Protests players leaving games*
*New players say it isn't fun*
*Vet tells them to git gud scrub*
*New player leaves game*

It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now.

But what if the only restriction was on the highest of MUs? As in really stacked players couldn't bring those kits in. Just two tiers, I don't even know what the highest meta level possible is, but I imagine a reasonable cutoff could be found.

And it doesn't separate the player base, just what gear you can use. Playing FW, PC or high end pubs? Play to the max!

Just participating in casual pubs? You can still play at the highest cutoff point, definitely gaining your earned advantage over other players. But at least the newbros won't have to contend against the highest MU, wealthiest players onna regular basis in the same way they do now.

This isn't a fix all end all solution. But for a declining game without much support I see it as an easy fix that *might* go a long way in helping new players feel at home and not totally out classed. It also wouldn't require major modifications to the game.

That's why I support tiered gameplay. Not across all levels, just basically reserving the highest end gear for higher end play. I just got my first proto suit and I love feeling so powerful. But I would not mind reserving it for FW, PC and high end pubs. Adv. Gear is just as fun, especially if you're fighting similarly geared opponents! Same with proto! A fair fight is always more fun to me, especially when I lose to someone geared like myself. It's a great learning experience to understand you were on even ground and you fcked up.

Meta Level locking is a bad idea.

You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago.