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Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:38:00 - [1] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 16:57:00 - [2] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: That example though I almost responded to the one guy talking ish about how vets on new characters suck...lolol. You put a vet in the academy when everyone is on 'equal footing' sp and gear wise and you will see persuasive demonstrations of the influence game knowledge and FPS skill has on your aptitude at dust. Even when I left the academy on my alts/spy accounts I had no issues...That's why Dwater and Jenova and so many others of FA's a-team were able to still stand up to AE successfully despite having 3 mill...5 mill...7 mill sp. Running into PC matches vs the best in the game with advanced suits.. NPE will be influenced best IMO by adding avenues of integration for players in the community and intuitive improvements that allow players to grasp the larger concepts while baiting them to dig deeper in a way that isn't isn't cumbersome or overwhelming. Give the kittens milk not meat, but make sure they know where the smokehouse is out back if they decide they want more. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.28 18:51:00 - [3] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match. You think the average pub pay is 400-500k, Ghost? lol I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 05:06:00 - [4] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Ghost Am I understanding correctly that your position is largely "everything NPE is fine" and that the only thing holding newbros back is a lack of training / FPS experience? If that's correct, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that the state of NPE can and should be improved upon. Besides, if TTK is no big deal, then vets won't mind if/when theirs is tuned to more closely match that of newbros (or vice versa). Right? PS: The answer to your question is that mobility plays a part in survivability. I don't think he was suggesting NPE shouldn't be mproved upon...or that everything NPE is fine. Did I miss the part where Ghost acknowledged problems and/or proposed solutions as it relates it NPE? What I've seen so far from him is "newbros are doing it wrong; that's the problem" and "newbros need more training; that's the solution". Maybe he's right on some level, but a number of other factors -- such as the TTK Gap and Wealth Gap -- are playing a part and are certainly not helping NPE. There's so much more we can do for newbros than tell them that they're doing it wrong. lol! good try bud but this is pretty basic logic. Inferring ghost doesn't think NPE should be improved because he didn't specifically say it...yeah that's a no-no. You continually misconstrue people pointing out flaws in your arguments as intending to suggest anything other than the flaw they are pointing out. Honestly if there's enough playerbase and the matchmaking was better we wouldn't be having people with 2 mill sp facing off against those with 70 IMO. But I don't need to provide examples like the one above to demonstrate I think that the NPE should be improved. There's a lot we can do for newbro's, but we don't have to tell them they are wrong if we've taught them right...which is why tutorials should be at the fore of any improvements to NPE. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:37:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: :: snip :: Why obfuscate what are simple issues? NPE needs work. It has needed work since Beta. Newbro ignorance does not need work. With time, newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. Why commit Dev Resources to a problem that fixes itself? Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a pile of new tutorials. Well, it turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. We attribute NPE issues to newbro ignorance, we assume that they must be doing it wrong, we blame them for letting us farm them, we tell ourselves that vet perks have nothing to do with abysmal newbro performance and retention rates, and we ardently object to any and every challenge to the status quo. To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks. Not a popular idea among the vets? Surprise, surprise. Newbro ignorance does not need work. With time, newbro ignorance fixes itself automatically. I find this woefully presumptuous. I think in the main most players quit far more because they don't stay around long enough to dispel their ignorance. The lack of information arming them puts them at a much worse disadvantage than any minor differences TTK has or isk they couldn't benefit from a whole lot as a newbro. Being overwhelmed by the complexity of the game's mechanics seems much more logical and indeed validate based on my experiences bringing people to play dust. My little brother in law won't touch dust even if he has all the sp and isk in the world...he doesn't even know people have crazy amounts of isk or what the difference is between militia and officer is....he thinks heavies are the best in the game because he gets mowed down by hmg's. Quote: Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a pile of new tutorials. Well, it turns out that newbro knowledge is impossible to measure, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done. This is the kind of nonsense that deserves little more than a collective yawn. Here, here let me try making hypotheticals! And while i'm at it I'll just broadly categorize people and pigeonhole their views because that's convenient...and perhaps a dash of bullshit about it all being caused by selfishness...without ever backing it up... "Say the Devs did spend time and effort on putting together a way so that all gear was equal and everyone had equal amounts of it. Well, it turns out that newbro's were still ** stomped and nothing changed in the data, so vets could (and would) continue to argue that newbros must need more of it. That's convenient. And it is precisely what we vets have always done." Quote: To date, "blame the newbro" has not improved NPE, and it isn't ever going to improve NPE. If growing the playerbase is still an objective, I'd say it is due time we pursue options other than "blame the newbro". I'd say it's time we have a look at those vet perks. I could again rephrase this to demonstrate the ineptitude that callous self righteousness seems to have elicited...but suffice it to say that this whole argument might be remotely worthy of consideration if it wasn't lacking in every way in demonstrative evidence. Call it 'blaming the newbro's" if that gross characterization helps you to justify the house you've built here on proverbial sand...but anyone with a brain isn't moved because we're all waiting for you to stop telling us it hasn't worked...and demonstrate to us where attempts have been made to improve newbro knowledge and show in relevant data that it hasn't had the desired effect. A healthy dose of devil's advocate would do all a world of good. Before you set out against a different viewpoint...be capable of making the strongest arguments for the other side such that they would find you convincing. I leave you with that invitation. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:49:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong This is really the gist of what he's contributed. There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself. It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized. The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 16:53:00 - [7] - Quote Ayuzawa wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not diluted enough to believe that any of my opinions are ever wrong This is really the gist of what he's contributed. There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself. It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized. The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution. Why argue with an idiot? I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:18:00 - [8] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: And you don't see the same thing coming from your side of the aisle? No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims. We give you data to work with and are still met with opinion. Opinion that you all see as set in stone, then claim we won't listen to any other ideas and are manipulating the conversation. I mean, its really hypocritical at the least. Lol! I presented 2 examples of newbro experiences...I haven't said that isk gap or other factors aren't playing a part, merely challenging the assertions that don't seem factually based despite being promoted as such. Who is this "we" and where is their data? because that's what I've been asking for. Your presumptions that anyone's opinions are set in stone only serve to confirm your own bias...not mine. Since when has pointing out flawed arguments been tantamount to manipulation of conversation? Dubious proposition. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:26:00 - [9] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Sure, the KDR data and then TTK data between suits is a BASIC set of examples. But they are examples that illustrate a glaring problem and we have quantified some data. All of the arguments for keeping proto and the game the way it is are opinion based emotional responses from those who firmly believe they are just better players, and that gear does not factor in as a large advantage. Simple data examples would tell us otherwise, if you're not mature enough to look at the problem for what it is then we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Daemonn Adima wrote: It's a common defense when presented with information that might invalidate a long held belief. You resort to cherrypicking and anectodal arguments when you don't actually have any data or factual basis for your claims. Pot, meet kettle. Daemonn Adima wrote: I never had the chance to use proto before yesterday. And you guys are ***** drunk if you don't think that power gap is an OBVIOUS advantage and factor in your performance in firefights. The difference being...I'm asking for data from which meaningful conclusions can be had. It's like any number of times in academia when a young grad student finds data that supports his thesis, and then simply refuses to do more research because the more research that's done, the less black and white his grand conclusion becomes. Hence why those of us who have the faintest idea are far more likely to say "hey this supports my notion...I probably need more data" than "hey this supports my assertions!!! We have the silver bullet let's draw conclusions now!" I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:50:00 - [10] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Lol not really man. Sure the data we presented is basic. Sure its possibly skewed because it doesn't account for every single factor (which some are not quantifiable, as in player behavior and actual player skill level) BUT it is the only data anyone has this far tried to present. So from both pieces of data (the KDR gaps and TTK gaps) not a single meaningful conclusion can be drawn? And my statement about proto wasn't anything more than me sharing MY personal experience. Did I say it was factual data? You wanna talk about strawmanning and all your fancy conversational trappings, these are semantics. Can we actually talk about the numbers besides "I don't like those numbers, so this data is flawed, no conclusion can be drawn whatsoever... Git gud scrubz!" "It's the only data, let's use what we have" I addressed this "skewed because it doesn't account for every single factor" lol, how about discussing what factors it actually does account for vs the number it doesn't.. This comes off as "Sorry it doesn't have EVERY SINGLE LAST FACTOR" "So from both pieces of data (the KDR gaps and TTK gaps) not a single meaningful conclusion can be drawn?" It's certainly a place to start, but not grounds for wholehearted conclusions. "And my statement about proto wasn't anything more than me sharing MY personal experience. Did I say it was factual data?" If you can't see the hypocrisy in suggesting that others are biased because they present anecdotal evidence...and then providing anecdotal evidence...then I uhh...well I really just don't know that's quite perplexing. The 'did i say it's factual data' is even more shocking. Has anyone suggested that anecdotal evidence is factual data? If not...then wtf was the point there? "Can we actually talk about the numbers besides "I don't like those numbers, so this data is flawed, no conclusion can be drawn whatsoever... Git gud scrubz!"" Semantics? SMH... Now you're pulling a 'shoddy gobang' I don't think anyone has said "I don't like those numbers" but I'm sure from a biased perspective that might be the way one might go about characterizing those who challenge their opinions. I'd stated quite clearly where I stand, if there's further useful discussion you desire feel free to set the topic. I would like to point out that you're cherrypicking much less than Adipem and I extoll your character...you see how I'm not avoiding any of your premises? I answer them, not cherry pick maybe one thing that i can twist to make a point with...I have no qualms reconciling and discussing anything you propose. Feel free to do the same. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily

Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 17:55:00 - [11] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Your examples of newbro experience are not data. They are anectdoal at best. Where were they presented as data...oh no man, here we go with the mischaracterizations. That there is a fallacy buddy I presented them as a refutation of your assertion that Quote: No one can seem to respond with anything except anecdotal responses with your "vet experience" being your only credentials or evidence for your claims. By pointing out that I've provided anecdotal evidence that has nothing to do with my own vet experiences...it's newbro experiences being witnessed and asserted. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:02:00 - [12] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any. "Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy." Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap. "The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear." Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys. "Noobs should PTFO." Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear. "Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear." OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us? "There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological." Gonna have to disagree with this one. Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread. "Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap." That is a presumption not based in fact. It's quite possible that tutorials and other fixes could very well mitigate any power gap that exists to 'acceptable' levels. "Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys." Disagreeing is great...but not an adequate refutation of an assertion. "Gonna have to disagree with this one." Don't know that this is a satisfactory characterization of his position, but if so...disagreeing isn't a rebuttal..and thus doesn't help anyone to draw closer to a mutual understanding or consensus." I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:12:00 - [13] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: If you've been keeping up with the argument over the last few weeks and several threads, you'd read many opposing any MU or tier locks are because they firmly believe proto gear is not a factor or not as big of a factor as other things like: newbro knowledge, some say squads hurt this game the most, others say its scrubs who don't know how to play, most just tell you to "git gud". Oh...well, I find most arguments you mentioned just as counter productive as the kinds of rhetoric I have been playing devil's advocate with in this thread. I don't think that it's impossible that tutorials could play a larger factor than eliminating any power gap between proto and militia gear..but I'm completely open to information that contradicts that opinion and thus changing it in the wake of new information. But that's always been me. You probably are a little jaded from all the idiots you've been responding to. I'm maddeningly logical...I really couldn't care who's right...I only care what's right and that conclusions are well reasoned...not promoted under a banner of 'shoddy gobang' arguments. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:25:00 - [14] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: And to that I applaud you. What I'm seeing is: We have minor tangible data to understand gear/performance disparity and the relationship with new players. We have no tangible evidence or data to work with in regards to helping new players learn the game or play the game better. I'm not building a foundation for the next church of Jesus Christ on those numbers, but I am aware they are the only real attempt at understanding the performance disparity and all the newbro posts complaining about people being too strong for them. Again, I'm not defining my argument with those numbers but they are helping me make an argument. If this was in reverse and some how we had statistics on player skill, newbro knowledge/retention rate and conversely no data on TTK or KDR then I would most likely be on the side of the argument that has data. Even if it is minor and not without flaws. Which is why we need more data...not more conclusions. You don't draw conclusions on the faintest of data...you use that data to stake out some possibilities and then inquire for more data to see if the theory continues to hold true...or if the premise becomes murky because it's conflicting...or the premise has to be repurposed or manipulated for the data to fit...or the data manipulated to fit the premise. Which is exactly where I'm at...if newbro tutorials aren't worth doing...then I'd be mighty surprised but ultimately satisfied with whatever course nets the highest returns/proves most worthy and efficacious. So perhaps we should be exploring what types of data would be relevant for proving differing kinds of propositions. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:28:00 - [15] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy. Considering the vast number of statements I've endured from you that aren't much different, I'd avoid hypocrisy and cut him a little slack. But that's just my advice. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:40:00 - [16] - Quote How about we gather data on the prevalence of each suit? Or the variance in an average match in sp and gear ran? What if we tried to ascertain if there's a general consensus at which players become isk efficient...and whether that isk efficiency allows them to run proto and advanced with regularity or whether invariably they are reduced back to militia suits? There's ** tons of ideas I'm sure could be conceived that would prove useful in drawing healthy and reasoned conclusions. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 18:43:00 - [17] - Quote byte modal wrote: LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck! Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation! You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon? ...for what it's worth. Right! Exactly you read my mind The more we stop insulting and generally casting shade on others and focus more on what they are actually trying to get across...the more we're going to learn. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:25:00 - [18] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: -SNIP- This is the rabble people make to convince others that whatever paltry 'evidence' justifies their heavy handed solutions is enough. * There's an insignificant power gap between ADV and PRO. Let's stop pretending there's more there and stop wasting time trying to suggest that 99% of the playerbase play in militia ** fits vs vets in officer gear. I could go on but I tire of rebuttling "shoddy gobang's" like the one I posed above. When there's more data to be digested or conversations more worthy than the mostly inept facade being propogated in comments like these, I'm sure I'll get pinged. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily**
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 5	Posted - 2015.10.30 20:29:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ayuzawa wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Why argue with an idiot? So ... now I'm an idiot? Would love to know what data and metrics were used in drawing that conclusion. Or are data and metrics only required when others are drawing conclusions? Lol. Opinions =/= Facts And for the record...she called you an idiot in that instance...my quoted comments were stating that the playerbase aren't idiots. I'm irrelevant, feel free to ignore me. :) No matter what. FAmily

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