A lot of veterans went through what the new players are going through now*. We got repeatedly curb stomped in matches and eventually clawed our way to where we are today. Some veterans feel that this is almost a rite of passage at this point.

Honestly, a new player can do things for their team. Usually it involves sticking close to other blueberries, providing fire support, nanohives and other useful equipment. So no, they don't get to Rambo Jihad themselves at the enemy, but saying that their ONLY option is to leave battle... that is silly talk.

*: Mind you, we didn't have dropsuit slot progression flattened, a warbarge to pump out free SP/ISK every single day, and daily missions to provide free gear/ISK/SP just for playing

I just wanna say that from the stomping point of view... RUNNING PROTO IS SO ADDICTIVE. I don't know if it's just me or what but of the changing the play style part, it's hard when you get so addicted. Just to let you know how it is, especially for this event, o had 20m isk. I usually stop running pro when I am at that mark and I go to adv or basic. For the event, I thought, f my deaths, I'm addicted to pro and officer, just spam it.

I'm down to 1m isk and I've lost about 8 officer suits as a whole. ITS ADDICTING.

On the other hand, few do change style for fun or other reasons. Today in the morning I decided not to run pro for a few matches. I pullout my Amarr scout, put on my newly aquired skin, a quafe scrambler, and ran that.

Citation needed. What data has Rattati shared with us that says the average active player of Dust 514 has 100,000,000 lifetime SP? Please link it, I'd like to take a look.
Officer spam is a problem. I will agree with you on that. Hopefully the recent change to the experimental lab will help curtail the officer stomping a bit.
No, I can deny it actually. A new player is capable of insta-gibbing people with a PLC or SG. They can provide suppression fire with MDs and LRs. They can chuck grenades that now do proto-tier damage at all tiers and ruin someone's day.

They have tools available to them that can make a difference in a battle.

If you want to help a new player then squad with them, give them advice on fittings, if you are feeling generous then give them some ISK. THAT is how you help new players. Not telling them to tuck tail and run at the first sight of a difficult battle.

I tried this a long ass time ago. The vet mentality is perfectly seen here almost 3 years ago. 0 f*ks given and still to this day.

post

While there may be hyperbole, the point still stands.

I have rather limited playing time and still have something like 30 mil SP, which is more than enough to confer a significant advantage over new players.

You can say what you want about flat slot progression, but the facts are that vets who have maxed shields, armor, engineering, and CPU (forgot which skill), have a massive advantage even using start vs starter. What good does flat slot progression do when they don't have the cpu/pg, or even SP into useful things such as kinkcats or myos?

At this point you are saying there is only one way to skill into anything until you have enough SP to diversify. Because there is no point in trying to skill into the play style they want, because its ok that those are ineffective until you get 10mil SP or so.

Frankly, I think the notion that new players have it better now than those of us that have been here years is simply not the case, as any positive change like slot progression flatness has significantly overshadowed by the many changes to make proto much better than standard gear. For many months there were changes to weaponry and eq that took once viable standard gear and made them ineffective in the name of encouraging proto skilling. It was understandable but misguided and many people pointed out the dangers and effects on the NPE.

I know you want this game ported, but if you cannot acknowledge these problems, and find ways to address them, we will simply port the problems to a new platform, and doom a port before it has even begun.

I think its funny the newberries complain so much about stopming. I still remember Nyain San /Chan Stomping Ambush all day everyday with full proto squads and Ion blaster tanks. but hey NPE is so much worse now right?

I personally cannot run lower tier than proto, because all my 30 fitting slots are occupied by varieties of suit+wep combos, with emphasis on Logi equipment combos as I'm a logi oriented player.
And no increase in max fittings is to be expected.


So there are other reasons as well beside pure dickery.

It is better.

If you go back through the forums you will see countless threads decrying stompers. Many of the changes listed in this thread were in direct response to the **** poor NPE.

You missed the point.
I would <3LOVE<3 to run in:
- STD/MLT freebies
- ADV cost-efficient all-rounders
- PC gear with limited LP store weps and EQs
- Try out those officer suits (a week ago I actually fitted and ran my first ever officer suit run - that's a lot because I've had those Balac Ck.0s for two months shy of three years)



So the point is my PRO fittings fill up the roster (with now two cheaper narrow use APEXes). If I try to create another setup you suggested, upon hitting the first 'create new' I get the message "maximum fitting amount reached".
And yes, I do refuse to recreate my tuned fittings daily, and I refuse to spend 2mins in match rebuilding a higher/lower tier suit idle in the MCC.

Obviously not in total cause the game is on a dying console but as a percentage I would say yes.

This game requires time invested for you to be any good but, when you get pissed and ragequit after two matches well.... you get the idea

Some of us play PC on a regular basis and need all those fittings regularly.

If I'm not in a PC suit, I'm in an Apex. And I only have two apex suits to run, my Min Assault and Scout. Two slots is all I will devote to pubs.

I believe that graph would attest to the fact that the game is no a console that will stop receiving support sometime in the next year and the long term bugs/ balance issues that this game has experienced.

It speaks nothing about the NPE which has objectively gotten better in terms of how quickly a new player can earn enough skill points to compete at a reasonable level.



But nice try moving the goal post there.

I did what you said and what I say is completely honest. It is most definitely harder to compete against other people who:

-have more skill than you
-have better gear than you
-simply just out number you

However, I am sill able to get very decent kill death ratios and I AM able to kill proto stompers. and again as mentioned before in this thread, all you need to do is abuse your positioning. I understand that the NPE is very bad. I was there and I hated it and it almost made me quit this game many years ago. Although once you start to realize that Dust 514 is more about positioning and tactical gameplay and not about suiciding into a wall of enemies, I believe that newer players will have a decent time against the Stronger opposition.

I understand what you are saying though. Leavaing battle does avoid the problem of proto stompers, although the more games you leave, the more oppurtunities you let go. I have learn through hardship, that a team of proto stompers is not something to run for but to challenge myself to take as many down as possible.

I just wish that newer players would take the time and just look ahead and not think aobut the SP and ISK. Yes you might lose your gear, yes you might rage and possibly quit, but new players will find a way to fight through this.

I came from the era of Gallente Logi's stacking armor, OP AR's and DMG mods. Newer players are coming into and era with soo much more at their disposal. They just need to find what strategy works for them and once again abuse it with good positioning.

I do like your thread though :) +1

@ Ghost

How do you explain the experinces of vets who make new characters?

Everything between the controller and chair is the same.

And yet, the experience is VASTLY different!

If the gear and the NPE were optimal, there would be a minimal reduction in efficacy, but that is not the case.

That should be a major hint to a man of science that something is wrong. When all else being equal, the same person on the same console with the same controller and internet connection can go from being relevant on a high SP toon to being utterly irrelevant on a new toon the reason can be NOTHING other than the current gap in high end item/SP vs low end item/SP.

BS.

I get around 400-500k from missions these days. You get a warbarge for another 120k free ISK, and you can easily pull 200k+ from a match.

At 50k a suit, that gives you ~520k to start with, and 200k per match.

If a newbie wants to play 5 matches, that gives him 1.52 Mil ISK to blow (And this is the LOW estimate. That's enough for 30 suits.

That's 6 deaths a match in full ADV gear.

For anyone doing decent, that's more than enough.

Data by itself is nowhere near enough. You seem to be forgetting how Dust works.

No matter what you do, so long as higher tier gear is more expensive, lower KD/R's will ALWAYS gravitate towards the lower end of the spectrum, simply because of the fact that they die so much.

They can't afford to die 20+ times in Proto gear. They would soon be forced out of it due to costs. Same with advanced gear, all the way down to STD.

What about the high end? Players who are really good at the game will naturally gravitate towards the higher end of the spectrum. They can afford to run the higher tier gear due to how little they die, and people who are REALLY good can run it 24/7. There is no "ceiling" for these players. The ones that are good enough to crush 90% of the opposition they meet will almost always run proto gear, simply because they can.

Not only that, but most people LIKE the proto gear. It makes you feel powerful, it looks kick ass, and you feel like you can take on the world with it (Only to realize that a dren shotgun on a BPO suit can ruin your day for the lovely cost of two complex damps). Everyone remembers getting their first proto suit. You WANTED to take your toy out to play. The ones who can afford to run it 24/7 almost always do so, inflating the proto K/DR even higher.

Combining these two causes the phenomenon you see here. The bad players stick to STD because they can't afford to die over and over in higher tier gear, and the better players stick to ADV or higher because they can afford to run it.

Its the nature of EVE and this game. There will always be sharks and fish. Some people simply aren't good enough at FPS games to be sharks. EVE and Dust tackle this by giving you SUPPORT roles, such as the Scout and Logistics. With enough game knowledge, you don't have to slay people constantly to be a benefit. Running around as a scout, hacking points and killing uplinks and going 2/5, is FAR more beneficial than a guy going 6/20 trying to meat grind.

KDR isn't the answer to everything. You get ISK based off of WARPOINTS, not kills. You get more for WINNING, not losing.

P-T-F-O

This is really the gist of what he's contributed.

There's a petty pattern present that's repeated itself.

It involves elements of strawman's, dismissing others opinions and rebuttals without resolving or providing a rejoinder , eschewing data in favor of rhetoric, and relies on gross mischaracterizations to demonize opposition...actual or fantasized.

The purpose isn't to convince him...the playerbase aren't idiots and it's them that need to make the choice between reasoned conclusions and grandiose elocution.

Lol!

I presented 2 examples of newbro experiences...I haven't said that isk gap or other factors aren't playing a part, merely challenging the assertions that don't seem factually based despite being promoted as such.

Who is this "we" and where is their data? because that's what I've been asking for.

Your presumptions that anyone's opinions are set in stone only serve to confirm your own bias...not mine.

Since when has pointing out flawed arguments been tantamount to manipulation of conversation?

Dubious proposition.

Pot, meet kettle.



The difference being...I'm asking for data from which meaningful conclusions can be had.

It's like any number of times in academia when a young grad student finds data that supports his thesis, and then simply refuses to do more research because the more research that's done, the less black and white his grand conclusion becomes.

Hence why those of us who have the faintest idea are far more likely to say "hey this supports my notion...I probably need more data" than "hey this supports my assertions!!! We have the silver bullet let's draw conclusions now!"



Where have people been saying that proto shouldn't be changed or the that NPE shouldn't be improved upon?

It must be someone else, I'm simply wondering who. If it's me feel free to quote where I said this.

Maybe you could point out where people said it's not a factor?

When data needs to be qualified as 'simple' that should indicate as to the strength of any conclusions drawn from it.

I'm sure you feel that everyone who disagrees with you must be immature, motivated by pride under the impressions they simply are better, and must use emotional responses...but the problem here is that this is an emotional response...plain and simple.

I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit.

Basic level player:

Armor Plating I
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I

+5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 0
Augmented Ammo 0

+15% damage vs armor

Proto level player:

Armor Plating 5
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5

+25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 5
Augmented Ammo 5

+35% damage vs armor

Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage?

"But that's just the way of New Eden"

This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to.

I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?'

---

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

---

Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear.

Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and;

Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them:
372.5 Shield HP
347.5 Armor HP
and they do:
27.3 HP/round to Shield
43.1 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top.

Now things get nasty
Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them:
407.7 Shield HP
402.5 Armor HP
and they do:
30.45 HP/round to Shield
46.8 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top.


I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon:

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2996827#post2996827 || Because you missed it.

My main argument has always been simple: Proto suits by themselves are not the problem. Compared statistically to other suits based on RAW stats and costs, Proto gives a minute advantage over advanced for a much higher ticket.

Everyone who says "Proto suits are the problem" are dead wrong. The suits themselves are wonderfully balanced.

"High SP gives you too big of an advantage!". Dead wrong as well, but a bit more merit to it. SP gives you large advantages for sure, but all that SP doesn't equate to skill or game knowledge. I can hop on a 4 Mil SP toon and trash most players, simply because I understand the game far better, and play far better. SP is very helpful though, and necessary to progress. We have made great strides in helping them get along, with passive warbarge SP, missions, higher cap, etc. Getting SP is not an issue.

What happens when you combine the proto suit, high SP, and game knowledge/Skill and throw him at someone brand new? Proto will win 9 times out 10. Why? Individually, these bonuses don't mean much, but combined they create quite a large gap.

Shawns example is on the right track. Which is why I mentioned in that above post, I wanted them to have better base skills, better tutorials, and removing militia and incentivising getting ADV gear ASAP.

I'll say it again, so people can't try to twist my words.

Proto Suits aren't the problem.

High SP isn't the problem.

Proto Suits + High SP + Skill / Game knowledege against the lower end of the spectrum is the problem.

At the end of the day, the BEST way to improve your overall performance is to learn how to play the game better. SP and Gear will easily come with time once you figure out how to stop throwing your clone away and actually DO something.

Snip

I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit.

Basic level player:

Armor Plating I
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I

+5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 0
Augmented Ammo 0

+15% damage vs armor

Proto level player:

Armor Plating 5
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5

+25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 5
Augmented Ammo 5

+35% damage vs armor

Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage?

"But that's just the way of New Eden"

This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to.

I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?'

---

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

---

Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear.

Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and;

Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them:
372.5 Shield HP
347.5 Armor HP
and they do:
27.3 HP/round to Shield
43.1 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top.

Now things get nasty
Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them:
407.7 Shield HP
402.5 Armor HP
and they do:
30.45 HP/round to Shield
46.8 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top.


I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon:

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.

Oh...well, I find most arguments you mentioned just as counter productive as the kinds of rhetoric I have been playing devil's advocate with in this thread.

I don't think that it's impossible that tutorials could play a larger factor than eliminating any power gap between proto and militia gear..but I'm completely open to information that contradicts that opinion and thus changing it in the wake of new information.

But that's always been me. You probably are a little jaded from all the idiots you've been responding to.

I'm maddeningly logical...I really couldn't care who's right...I only care what's right and that conclusions are well reasoned...not promoted under a banner of 'shoddy gobang' arguments.

You aren't even arguing, you just keep spamming Shawns post like its your own.

That, and using anecdotal evidence of your own, while discounting all the others.

And as for your issue, I've already said my part about it. I want a better academy, and higher base skills. Issue solved.

All CCP has to do is make it. Until then, learn to play better, that's all you can do. Skill is all that can help you now.

Or you could just leave matches 24/7, because that will help.

Which is why we need more data...not more conclusions.

You don't draw conclusions on the faintest of data...you use that data to stake out some possibilities and then inquire for more data to see if the theory continues to hold true...or if the premise becomes murky because it's conflicting...or the premise has to be repurposed or manipulated for the data to fit...or the data manipulated to fit the premise.

Which is exactly where I'm at...if newbro tutorials aren't worth doing...then I'd be mighty surprised but ultimately satisfied with whatever course nets the highest returns/proves most worthy and efficacious.

So perhaps we should be exploring what types of data would be relevant for proving differing kinds of propositions.

LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck!
Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation!

You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon?

...for what it's worth.

Considering the vast number of statements I've endured from you that aren't much different, I'd avoid hypocrisy and cut him a little slack.

But that's just my advice.

ELO based matchmaking.

Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU.

Sounds like another stall tactic aimed at preserving the status quo. We've waxed lyrical long enough. I say we take action and improve NPE while there's still time.

---

* There's a significant power gap between STD and PRO. Let's stop pretending it isn't there and stop wasting time trying to measure it. Instead, let's focus on finding ways to narrow it.

* Newbros can't afford ADV gear. Let's tweak pub pay, implement underdog bonuses, etc. It is better we pay them too much than leave them in the redline or lose them for good.

* Newbros need more initial training. Let's give them more SP upfront, extend the Academy duration and give them a respec on graduation. Why not?

* Newbros need tutorials. Let's build simple tutorials into Achievements 1.0. "Complete X task, Y times, and get Z rewards. Here's how to do X."

* Newbros need mentors. On arrival, let's systematically put them in touch with D-UNI, The Learning Coalition, etc via NPC mail or chat channel or whatever. Or perhaps even add a mentor section in squad finder and devise a simple system which rewards trainer/trainee participation.

* The power and wealth gaps which separate vets from newbros is too wide. Let's come up with creative, performance-driven means by which to narrow it. Example.

Meta Level locking is a bad idea.

You can easily make a viable fit with officer weapons for under 40 Meta. We had a thread on it a while ago.

Link? I must've missed that discussion, as I'd still default to favoring Meta locks over Tier locks. At first glance, seems it'd be easier to implement and would leave more room for loadout flexibility. Deathwind solved the officer gear problem. What else am I missing?