Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any.

"Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy."
Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap.

"The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear."
Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys.

"Noobs should PTFO."
Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear.

"Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear."
OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us?

"There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological."
Gonna have to disagree with this one.

---

Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread.

I'll say it again, so people can't try to twist my words.

Proto Suits aren't the problem.
High SP isn't the problem.

Proto Suits + High SP + Skill / Game knowledege against the lower end of the spectrum is the problem.

At the end of the day, the BEST way to improve your overall performance is to learn how to play the game better. SP and Gear will easily come with time once you figure out how to stop throwing your clone away and actually DO something.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2996827#post2996827 || Because you missed it.

My main argument has always been simple: Proto suits by themselves are not the problem. Compared statistically to other suits based on RAW stats and costs, Proto gives a minute advantage over advanced for a much higher ticket.

Everyone who says "Proto suits are the problem" are dead wrong. The suits themselves are wonderfully balanced.

"High SP gives you too big of an advantage!". Dead wrong as well, but a bit more merit to it. SP gives you large advantages for sure, but all that SP doesn't equate to skill or game knowledge. I can hop on a 4 Mil SP toon and trash most players, simply because I understand the game far better, and play far better. SP is very helpful though, and necessary to progress. We have made great strides in helping them get along, with passive warbarge SP, missions, higher cap, etc. Getting SP is not an issue.

What happens when you combine the proto suit, high SP, and game knowledge/Skill and throw him at someone brand new? Proto will win 9 times out 10. Why? Individually, these bonuses don't mean much, but combined they create quite a large gap.

Shawns example is on the right track. Which is why I mentioned in that above post, I wanted them to have better base skills, better tutorials, and removing militia and incentivising getting ADV gear ASAP.

I'll say it again, so people can't try to twist my words.

Proto Suits aren't the problem.

High SP isn't the problem.

Proto Suits + High SP + Skill / Game knowledege against the lower end of the spectrum is the problem.

At the end of the day, the BEST way to improve your overall performance is to learn how to play the game better. SP and Gear will easily come with time once you figure out how to stop throwing your clone away and actually DO something.

Fair enough. Let's recap your arguments so far, shall we? Let me know if I miss any.

"Noobs need better tutorials and more time in the academy."
Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap.

"The average noob can afford to routinely field ADV gear."
Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys.

"Noobs should PTFO."
Sure. But again, it won't resolve the STD/PRO power gap, and they'll go broke if/when they try to narrow the STD/PRO power gap by running ADV gear.

"Efficiency data tells us that good players use PRO gear and bad players use STD gear."
OK? Is that all it tells us? What else might it tell us?

"There is no real STD/PRO power gap; the proto advantage is largely psychological."
Gonna have to disagree with this one.

---

Now, what did I miss? I'm not talking about everything you've ever done. I'm talking about what you've contributed to this thread.

Snip

I think we should also consider the effect skills have on a dropsuit.

Basic level player:

Armor Plating I
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades I

+5% base dropsuit armor HP, + 2% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 0
Augmented Ammo 0

+15% damage vs armor

Proto level player:

Armor Plating 5
Dropsuit Armor Upgrades 5

+25% base dropsuit armor HP, + 10% armor module HP

Combat Rifle Proficiency 5
Augmented Ammo 5

+35% damage vs armor

Just with these two players in the exact same same loadout, the vet gets 20% more hp from their suit and 8% more hp from their modules, and does 20% more damage. How many more shots does the newberry have to land on the vet (edit: compared to the vet on the newberry) to take them out? What other FPSs can you think of that give vets such an advantage?

"But that's just the way of New Eden"

This system works in Eve because you can pick your fights. There is no d-scan to see what's in that plex in Dust. There is no pulling range and warping off in Dust. You fight against who and whatever Scotty tells you to.

I realize this won't be a popular opinion but to me it's just crazy for Dust to not have some sort of mode where all stats are equalized. A mode where I don't have to think 'did I just die because I got outplayed or because that guy just has more hp and does more damage than me?'

---

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

---

Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear.

Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and;

Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them:
372.5 Shield HP
347.5 Armor HP
and they do:
27.3 HP/round to Shield
43.1 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top.

Now things get nasty
Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them:
407.7 Shield HP
402.5 Armor HP
and they do:
30.45 HP/round to Shield
46.8 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top.


I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon:

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.

If you've been keeping up with the argument over the last few weeks and several threads, you'd read many opposing any MU or tier locks are because they firmly believe proto gear is not a factor or not as big of a factor as other things like: newbro knowledge, some say squads hurt this game the most, others say its scrubs who don't know how to play, most just tell you to "git gud".

No one is saying "proto suits are the problem". We are saying its a problem to let the MOST WELL EQUIPPED go against the LEAST WELL EQUIPPED.

That is the ISSUE. Can we talk about the issue and stop mincing words? Good god.

"Absolutely agree. But this will do nothing to resolve the STD/PRO power gap."
That is a presumption not based in fact. It's quite possible that tutorials and other fixes could very well mitigate any power gap that exists to 'acceptable' levels.

"Disagree entirely. Keep an eye on the bottom half of every leaderboard. Averages include those guys."
Disagreeing is great...but not an adequate refutation of an assertion.

"Gonna have to disagree with this one."
Don't know that this is a satisfactory characterization of his position, but if so...disagreeing isn't a rebuttal..and thus doesn't help anyone to draw closer to a mutual understanding or consensus."

Oh...well, I find most arguments you mentioned just as counter productive as the kinds of rhetoric I have been playing devil's advocate with in this thread.

I don't think that it's impossible that tutorials could play a larger factor than eliminating any power gap between proto and militia gear..but I'm completely open to information that contradicts that opinion and thus changing it in the wake of new information.

But that's always been me. You probably are a little jaded from all the idiots you've been responding to.

I'm maddeningly logical...I really couldn't care who's right...I only care what's right and that conclusions are well reasoned...not promoted under a banner of 'shoddy gobang' arguments.

I know this isn't somehow a better solution, but if some players refuse to modify their behavior to better the experience for everyone, then why should new players force themselves to stay in stomps? For the enjoyment of the stompers?

*Won't stop officer/proto pub stomps*
*Protests players leaving games*
*New players say it isn't fun*
*Vet tells them to git gud scrub*
*New player leaves game*

It's a strange sort of dichotomy running right now.

You aren't even arguing, you just keep spamming Shawns post like its your own.

That, and using anecdotal evidence of your own, while discounting all the others.

And as for your issue, I've already said my part about it. I want a better academy, and higher base skills. Issue solved.

All CCP has to do is make it. Until then, learn to play better, that's all you can do. Skill is all that can help you now.

Or you could just leave matches 24/7, because that will help.

Don't put words in my mouth. The STD-PRO gap is definite, the ADV-PRO gap is small.

And to that I applaud you.

What I'm seeing is:

We have minor tangible data to understand gear/performance disparity and the relationship with new players.

We have no tangible evidence or data to work with in regards to helping new players learn the game or play the game better.

I'm not building a foundation for the next church of Jesus Christ on those numbers, but I am aware they are the only real attempt at understanding the performance disparity and all the newbro posts complaining about people being too strong for them.

Again, I'm not defining my argument with those numbers but they are helping me make an argument. If this was in reverse and some how we had statistics on player skill, newbro knowledge/retention rate and conversely no data on TTK or KDR then I would most likely be on the side of the argument that has data. Even if it is minor and not without flaws.

Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy.

Which is why we need more data...not more conclusions.

You don't draw conclusions on the faintest of data...you use that data to stake out some possibilities and then inquire for more data to see if the theory continues to hold true...or if the premise becomes murky because it's conflicting...or the premise has to be repurposed or manipulated for the data to fit...or the data manipulated to fit the premise.

Which is exactly where I'm at...if newbro tutorials aren't worth doing...then I'd be mighty surprised but ultimately satisfied with whatever course nets the highest returns/proves most worthy and efficacious.

So perhaps we should be exploring what types of data would be relevant for proving differing kinds of propositions.

LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck!
Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation!

You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon?

...for what it's worth.

Considering the vast number of statements I've endured from you that aren't much different, I'd avoid hypocrisy and cut him a little slack.

But that's just my advice.

LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck!
Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation!

You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon?

...for what it's worth.

Lol spamming Shauns as if its my own? That's why I quote him and give credit in threads started with it? Thanks for the jab though man.

And I argue that meta locks or tier locks are a better solution. I've said this countless times across many threads, so if it seems like I'm "not arguing" its because these threads are constantly derailed by trolls or people who come to mince words instead of work on a solution.

I get along just fine in games, thanks for your concern though. This is more in response to the weekly if not daily newbro ragequit post. I couldn't understand why so many people felt the same way and it wasn't a well discussed topic within the current community. That's why these threads have come to exist. Not because I'm having trouble in games. I just skilled into my first proto suit, mods and weapons. So I'm doing just fine, thanks though bro.

Lost respect for you over this post Ghost, didn't mean to rustle your jimmies cowboy.

i usually run apex suits with standard weapons. i still manage double digit kills and single digit deaths, and players still leave matches. it doesnt matter if it's proto or not, a stomp is a stomp. good players will still be good, and experienced vets will almost always beat new players.

how do you fix differences in experience?

LOL, this thread! It's a damn trainwreck!
Everyone is arguing semantics, seemingly deliberately avoiding the topic to mince words and bicker for the sake of bickering rather than staying true to the spirit of the OP. It's mind-blowing. It's like half of you are in a freshman level Intro to PSYCH class, and you just reached the reference to logic all eager to show off your "knowledge" of this or that but all without actually getting it. It's on the same level as those kids happy to invalidate someone's post because of punctuation!

You're not an idiot, you can read between the lines, lol. Then again, the pettiness of some of these comments, perhaps I spoke too soon?

...for what it's worth.

ELO based matchmaking. Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU.

ELO based matchmaking.

Sadly, requires a higher playerbase to truly be effective. Which is why we get a mockery of it with MU.

How about we gather data on the prevalence of each suit? Or the variance in an average match in sp and gear ran? What if we tried to ascertain if there's a general consensus at which players become isk efficient...and whether that isk efficiency allows them to run proto and advanced with regularity or whether invariably they are reduced back to militia suits?

There's **** tons of ideas I'm sure could be conceived that would prove useful in drawing healthy and reasoned conclusions.

I think something to remember is that yes, vets had it rough. Lots of game breaking bugs, badly implemented features and rough characters did not make growing up in Dust easy.

But the game is dying and I don't think now is the time to hold rites of passage so dearly. Era of the newbro, while seemingly unfair to some, might be the only thing left to do with this game. Last influx of cash from new players to thrust us into #PortDust514Now....