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Sticky:[Data Insights] Rifle Balance Update

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CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17318	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:03:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Freccia di Lybra Simple Trading Union 504	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:15:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] May be interesting to see the STD / PRO sheets as well Ei fu, xxwhitedevilxx former Co-CEO Maphia Clan Corporation / Unit Unicorn
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1756	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:16:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] Let me zoom on picture!! Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 198	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:18:00 - [4] - Quote It is interesting to be sure...any chance we can get some other chart formats to compare the data as well? This one looks cool, but the lack of axis label, and the fact that it's the size of the particular section that matters makes it a bit difficult to understand at first... As for comments on it...the AScR may be under-performing overall, but against the right targets (shield suits) it absolutely wrecks...so I would posit that the problem with it has more to do with the heavy emphasis on armor in the current meta (at least from my observations, shield tanking has shown up a bit more...but I don't have the specific data you might)...and buffing the AScR won't do much to encourage shield tankers to actually fit their tank. I don't use the Plasma Rifle weaponry, so I'm not really set up to comment one them (in this case the TAR and BAR), but I'd be cautious about how you handle them...to make sure they don't outshine the weapons they're supposed to be mimicking (CBR and ScR respectively) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Freccia di Lybra Simple Trading Union 505	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:19:00 - [5] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] Let me zoom on picture!! http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png Ei fu, xxwhitedevilxx former Co-CEO Maphia Clan Corporation / Unit Unicorn
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2865	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:19:00 - [6] - Quote Saved for later post. Could you edit the graph and make the color differentiation a bit more apparent? It's incredibly hard to read the graph because I'm having to go into MS Paint to make sure I'm looking at the correct respective shade of blue. Also, could we get some values on the graph? Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1756	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:21:00 - [7] - Quote The Rail Rifle to me seems fine, I rarely ever get killed by it. The kick is horrendous. As for the Assault Rifle and ScR. It's all about the Armor Meta. Everybody armor tanks so people would rather use weapons made for killing armor than shield.. P.S. The ScR is ridiculous against shields. 700 shield Caldari Assault can lose all it's shields in under 2 seconds to a standard ScR. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6652	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:23:00 - [8] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Saved for later post. Could you edit the graph and make the color differentiation a bit more apparent? It's incredibly hard to read the graph because I'm having to go into MS Paint to make sure I'm looking at the correct respective shade of blue. I believe each series appears in the same order listed in the legend. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Freccia di Lybra Simple Trading Union 505	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:25:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] I think it may be also interesting to show and consider the PC datas about suits and weapons. It may potentially tell more than pubs: in fact in pubs I always use the weapon I "like" not necessarily the one I consider the strongest in the whole game, same goes for the suits. Ei fu, xxwhitedevilxx former Co-CEO Maphia Clan Corporation / Unit Unicorn
The Eristic Dust 90210 798	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:29:00 - [10] - Quote Freccia di Lybra wrote: May be interesting to see the STD / PRO sheets as well Burst and Tac will be serious underperformers on the STD chart. ;^) Their absence might also contribute to how underused they are at Advanced, as non-vets won't know what they're about and choose to skill up CR/RR instead. AScR, otoh, is just kinda balls most of the time, even though it shouldn't be. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2171	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:41:00 - [11] - Quote Ambush still accounting for a lot of rr kills I think. I don't see it too often in objective based game modes, unless its a Dom where heavies aren't that great. Burst rifles too bursty (less RoF higher dmg bursts). Tar maybe slightly higher damage per shot & less RoF? Scope is a big problem for both tar & bar (takes up too much screen space). AScR has strange hit detection, might be better if made more similar to BrAR. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5316	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:43:00 - [12] - Quote Make one for the side arms (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx 405	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:48:00 - [13] - Quote Tread very lightly with the ascr. Its really not a bad gun, its just not god mode. All it needs is the recoil and/or muzzle flash reduced. I find alot of the time i kind of lose the target with the flash. The recoil is ok once you get used to it so do something about the muzzle flash first. The ascr situation is starting to feel a lot like the pre buff breach ar. Honestly though, my amarr commando would love a ascr dmg buff "In a world gone mad,only a lunatic is truly insane" Homer J Simpson
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9559	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:49:00 - [14] - Quote Why are all the colors around the same tones! *~New Eden's #1 Gallente Arm's Dealer*
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge 2892	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:52:00 - [15] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Why are all the colors around the same tones! Excellent question! What about the colorblind people? Think of them! *Quoth the Raven "Nevermore!"* - Edgar Allan Poe
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2171	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:10:00 - [16] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Why are all the colors around the same tones! Excellent question! What about the colorblind people? Think of them! As a shirt of mine once said "Fck the colourblind". Nah just kidding, color differentiation would make things easier to read. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.* I have a few alts.
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 258	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:12:00 - [17] - Quote I have used the Tac ar and it lacks in range pretty heavy as well the burst ar the range is always going to be a decisive factor for these weapons, reason why many ppl don't use them. What I want to recommend is that they generally need a damage increase, because it is way risky trying to get in range, so to not have problems with other weapons ranges I would increase the damage, at least if u get the right range u deserve the damage to actually get the kill. That's something natural in this kind of things. Ppl will use the weapons with greater ranges, instead the ones that have a higher risk to use. (that doesn't apply to melee and knifing. Lol trolling reasons) well that is my thought With the ascr not pretty sure what it needs. Maybe some extra damage also because it is as bad as an smg. Or increase the clip a little bit so it will have a better dmg in total. Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 366	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:33:00 - [18] - Quote Ratatti, you've previously said you have no desire to run tanks/vehicles, no explanation given I think you should consider that opinion when looking at the underperforming weapons. Sometimes they're not used because they are UP, they are just less exciting and only will get used if they are OP (looking at you breach AR). Also, I'd love to see the LR stats ADS Ramming Revenge! Should Have Stayed Inside (the Tank)
alias lycan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 36	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:52:00 - [19] - Quote Don't assume lack of popularity means a weapon is UP. The only gun that I see that might need adjustments is the ASCR. I don't really have enough experience with TAC ARs but I've been running burst ARs almost exclusively and I refuse to believe they're UP.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3207	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:04:00 - [20] - Quote MOAR DATA PLZ!

Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 382	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:10:00 - [21] - Quote alias lycan wrote: Don't assume lack of popularity means a weapon is UP. The only gun that I see that might need adjustments is the ASCR. I don't really have enough experience with TAC ARs but I've been running burst ARs almost exclusively and I refuse to believe they're UP. I second this particular opinion. As of now I would say Tac AR's are in a good spot overall and the burst well I will just say that they work surprisingly well. No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game RUST415 275	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:26:00 - [22] - Quote Is this graph related to "Fifty shades of Blue" or something? Rise? That's what they used to call me. Sequal Rise. That was my name. Now I come Back to you, at the turn of the tide.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12053	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:34:00 - [23] - Quote Reduce TAR kick. The kick is not much of a big deal in close range, but at longer ranges it makes it impossible to fully make use of the fire rate without it flying all over the place. Give the ASCR a mechanic that makes the heat buildup justified. The regular SCR has the charge shot which is balanced by heat buildup, the laser rifle has has a damage buildup mechanic that has to be balanced by the heat buildup. On the ASCR though, doesn't feel justified, so I recommend giving it a "damage buildup per based on continuous fire duration" feature like the laser rifle... or at the very least, just make it less jittery, and reduce dispersion. As for the burst AR, I don't really know what to attribute the lack of use to, but seems pretty solid to me. Perhaps people just haven't found out how good it is? Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2386	Posted - 2015.02.13 07:06:00 - [24] - Quote For the love of all that is holy, use a color other than blue. I can't make heads or tails of that graph. Graphmaking 101, man. Home at Last <3
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 22145	Posted - 2015.02.13 07:07:00 - [25] - Quote I would be very hesitant to suggest buffing the TAR. I'm not sure why the data doesn't perfectly reflect it, but I am finding it an exceedingly powerful weapon, to the point where I have sometimes taken heavies head on and won. If you do buff it, please be cautious. moobius 2013 never forget
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1008	Posted - 2015.02.13 07:54:00 - [26] - Quote The only weapon that needs a good buff is the Assault Scrambler Rifle. While the Assault Combat Rifle needs a considerable nerf to the point where it out classes the Assault Rifle in its own turf. And please. Change the colors. I got so confused at looking at the charts. Changes to Damage mods!
Grimmiers 796	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:03:00 - [27] - Quote More range will always be safer than having most of your fights sandwiched between scouts and heavies, so I'm not surprised by the chart. The Assault bonuses for the minmatar and the design of the assault combat rifle really overshadow anything the Plasma ar can do along with more heavies and armor tanked suits on the field. It also has a bit more range. The scrambler rifle on the other hand is almost exclusively used by amarr assaults which completely outclasses the assault scrambler in close and long range. You can switch from alpha to dps and then switch to a sidearm if the enemy isn't already melted. The assault rifle is always only slightly more powerful than similar rifles when in close range and at time useless when it comes to long range. I accept that I'm using a close range weapons, so it doesn't bother me when I can't fight back at longer ranges, but there are so much better close ranged weapons that aren't necessarily rifles like a shotgun, hmg, smg, etc. The increase in clips size should be replaced imo. The rail rifle just seems to have it all with the only downside being a charge up and some wacky dispersion which probably helps more than it harms at close range where you would need to keep the trigger held. The clip size also seems a bit large for a long range weapon. Overall I'd say the balance is almost there with some discrepancies in assault bonuses and some toe stepping for intended uses.
cray cray FISH Caught Me With My Pants Down 34	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:14:00 - [28] - Quote Where are these battles where people are getting kills with standard RR and Assault rifles? Since the recoil of the RR i have found the assault RR much more practical and the TAC is the best weapon in the game in the right hands... Although we are all in agreement, the ASCR is UP, though it is the assist king. Catchphrase: "I hate team games, I'm shellfish" Team BD's Resident Fish
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1473	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:33:00 - [29] - Quote You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. Retired
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4024	Posted - 2015.02.13 09:11:00 - [30] - Quote I use adv Ascr on my gal logi, i don't think it's underperforming, maybe some other weapons are overperforming, that's why people keep using only them. Maybe people just use what they are confortable with, i've never been a fan of weapons which shoot on trigger release, but i see scr rifle wreking everything that is not tanked with over 600 armor. Despite ACR it's not extremely powerful, people keep using it because it's easy to use and it's more popular than AR because it has better damage profile on armor. I prefer automatic weapons because i'm lazy and i don't want to spam R1. I just want to say that there are many different reasons to use a weapon, not always because it's OP. Some have luck, some have money, trading is not a crime. Minmatar omni-merc

iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game RUST415 679	Posted - 2015.02.13 09:52:00 - [31] - Quote its the +20/-20 profile screwing the ascr and considering it doesn't heat up that bad the amarr ass. really don't help it, the regular scr can get away with the +20/-20 cause of the charge shot and the amarr ass. bonus, and high damage per shot. (n`-´)+Æ;;; shotgun blast yo ASs _/ \
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1561	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:22:00 - [32] - Quote We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17372	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:33:00 - [33] - Quote Jathniel wrote: You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. This is someone biased in favor of the TAR, pleading with you not to buff it any further. It really does not need it. It is a GOOD thing that the TAR takes skill to use, and is limited to a few users. TAR worst K/S bar none...don't know how those opinions "align" "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17372	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:38:00 - [34] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7168	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:41:00 - [35] - Quote What this tells me is that shield suits are still deeply in the minority despite the fact that they are damn good. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7168	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:42:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range May I weigh in here? AV
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1563	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:43:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range Amen, Rattati! Thank you! That's exactly the problem, the hmg can even outrange an AR user! Thank god we have CCP Rattati. One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 15143	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:43:00 - [38] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Reduce TAR kick. The kick is not much of a big deal in close range, but at longer ranges it makes it impossible to fully make use of the fire rate without it flying all over the place. Give the ASCR a mechanic that makes the heat buildup justified. The regular SCR has the charge shot which is balanced by heat buildup, the laser rifle has has a damage buildup mechanic that has to be balanced by the heat buildup. On the ASCR though, doesn't feel justified, so I recommend giving it a "damage buildup per based on continuous fire duration" feature like the laser rifle... or at the very least, just make it less jittery, and reduce dispersion. As for the burst AR, I don't really know what to attribute the lack of use to, but seems pretty solid to me. Perhaps people just haven't found out how good it is? ASCR is actually an incredibly good rifle without heat. Fastest reload, tight dispersion, arguably best sight of all the Assault variants, excellent range, etc'. It also has a high damage per mag, though I don't remember if the AR caught up or not since the mag damage increase. I really don't know why it doesn't perform. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 15143	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:47:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range While I think the problem is damage combined with ease of use and not range, it's still better than a heat build up nerf that in effect does very little on the field. Since even with heat build, the HMG can still destroy every suit in its path 3 times over. Except sentinels, those it can do twice over Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2176	Posted - 2015.02.13 10:55:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range I'd roll back the damage honestly. 720 dps (-15/+15) at MLT level. 792 (-15/+15) at proto without proficiency or damage mods. That's 910dps vs armor. On suits that can have 2000 EHP if they fully brick out. I'd pair the dps up with something like an assault combat rifle, then just let it fire for the left side of forever. Also, might it be possible that HMG's are really **ing with the kills per spawn of assault rifle variants? They are in roughly the same range after all. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.

Haerr Nos Nothi 2332	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:07:00 - [41] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: MOAR DATA PLZ! YES MOAR PLZ!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7168	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:08:00 - [42] - Quote It's not just the HMG. It's the design philosophy behind the HMG and sentinel is restricting a slow, heavily armored sensor-blind monster to CQC. Why does the HMG overperform? Because CQC dominance means it's expected to function best in an environment that negates most of it's disadvantages. Bluntly the only reason to have something built like a sentinel is if it's expected to be exposed providing supporting fire and needs to be able to take multiple strong hits. I remember the original heavy turn speed penalty. It allowed people to circle tge fatty and use superior mobility to rip said heavy apart. Basically it negated the heavy's CQC role entirely. But it didn't really interfere with the forge gun's lethality at a distance. Why? Because the forge gun is a long-range, open ground weapon. You didn't expect to live if an assault or a scout got too close. So why do I bring it up? Because it could have been a balancing factor to a fire SUPPORT platform. HMG sentinels are at the top because you can too-easily use them as lockdown point defense and heavy assault suits. They are in environments where their mobility issues are a nonfactor and they can casually negate sensor blindness by putting their backs in a corner or having a rep tool behind them. AV
Haerr Nos Nothi 2332	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:09:00 - [43] - Quote Data on Breach Shotguns, all tiers? Pretty please. :-)
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 249	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:31:00 - [44] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: What this tells me is that shield suits are still deeply in the minority despite the fact that they are damn good. And that any scrambler tech instantly forces them to use armor suits, while armor doesn't have to change. Molestia approved
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1291	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:32:00 - [45] - Quote Dear Rattati, could you repaint this chart in any colors besides blue, light blue, light blue and dark blue? Damn hard recognized. Please support fair play!
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2176	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:34:00 - [46] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this tells me is that shield suits are still deeply in the minority despite the fact that they are damn good. And that any scrambler tech instantly forces them to use armor suits, while armor doesn't have to change. It's not that. It is quite simply, that any damage taken (even incidental damage from people shooting **ing assault rifles at you 100m away!) stops shield repair. The same is not true of stopping armor repair. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Cat Merc Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 15143	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:36:00 - [47] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this tells me is that shield suits are still deeply in the minority despite the fact that they are damn good. And that any scrambler tech instantly forces them to use armor suits, while armor doesn't have to change. Umm, have you seen what a Combat Rifle does to armor? Or explosive spam that is common in CQC maps? Saying that armor suits don't have their hard counters is bullshit. The majority of weapons on the field are anti armor. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 845	Posted - 2015.02.13 11:44:00 - [48] - Quote I don't know how the burst AR can be considered not good enough. Its devastating, its has all the strengths of the combat rifle, does more damage, and a better damage profile. The ASCR I repeatedly covered with charts and data showing exactly why its UP but that never got any traction. In case your wondering, the Proto ASCR does less damage against armor than all of the ADV Rail rifle vs shield, ADV Combat rifle vs shield, and ADV AR vs Armor. The ADV ASCR in the same situation is on STD rifle tier. The TAC AR is pretty good, but like the plasma cannon, niche because its a bit unwieldy. It might need some tweaks to make it easier to handle, but damage output and range, its fine. As long as Logis are sticking to HMGS they will always have the highest K/S ratio. That should be taken into consideration. Perhaps you can work out the kills /spawn as well as look at healing recieved. Then you can judge how op heavies seem to be. As in heavies a lower healing recieved stats might be more balanced with the other suits. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Francois Sanchez Prima Gallicus 243	Posted - 2015.02.13 12:04:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jathniel wrote: You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. This is someone biased in favor of the TAR, pleading with you not to buff it any further. It really does not need it. It is a GOOD thing that the TAR takes skill to use, and is limited to a few users. TAR worst K/S bar none...don't know how those opinions "align" The K/S may be lower, but it's not because the weapon needs a buff, but simply because : - people are armour tanking, an anti-shield weapon can perform as well as anti-armour without being OP (moreover powerful anti-shield weapons push shield users to armour tank too) - gallente rifles in general are more effective at shorter range where they have to face the king HMG, moreover getting close to the enemy is more dangerous than sitting far away by definition (less exposed to flank, traps etc)
Jebus McKing Nos Nothi 1448	Posted - 2015.02.13 12:06:00 - [50] - Quote The AScR is a decent weapon. It's just that the ScR is so overwhelmingly more powerful. Jebus still hates scans.

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 845	Posted - 2015.02.13 12:16:00 - [51] - Quote Current Burst AR in action If thats not good enough, then what is? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
GrimzOvaHourz The Forgotten Spirits 72	Posted - 2015.02.13 12:46:00 - [52] - Quote **** your data
zzZaXxx The Exemplars 720	Posted - 2015.02.13 13:32:00 - [53] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I would be very hesitant to suggest buffing the TAR. I'm not sure why the data doesn't perfectly reflect it, but I am finding it an exceedingly powerful weapon, to the point where I have sometimes taken heavies head on and won. If you do buff it, please be cautious. It needs one thing: reduced ADS kick. Or just mimic the SCR's ADS kick (which is less and also seems to have no horizontal kick)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 5973	Posted - 2015.02.13 13:53:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range I guess I will be using my sidearm more in the near future... But then just about every proposed solution we have come up with to balance the HMG would lead to Sentinels having to switch to sidearms in specific situations, so I guess we will try the range approach and see how it works out. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15602	Posted - 2015.02.13 14:28:00 - [55] - Quote How is the Tactical AR underpowered when it does more damage than the SCR, can fire more shots than the SCR can before overheating, has the same RPM, while only having -15m? How is the Burst AR underpowered when it does more damage than the CR, has a larger magazine than the CR (even with MinAssault V), has the same RPM, while only having -12m? Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. Claiming it does is fallacious because it fails to assess other factors which would cause it to be used more (or less), such as objectives being CQC oriented, weapons only being able to damage vehicles, weapon isn't great against the most prevalent tank, etc. Easy examples would be the pre-1.7 Swarm Launcher, which despite being overpowered still remained as the 3rd least used Light Weapon, and the the SMG which despite being the most used Sidearm in the history of DUST is balanced and has adequate advantages and drawbacks to other weapons. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1254	Posted - 2015.02.13 14:47:00 - [56] - Quote when was the last update on this post? tac and burst are awsome. subnote : in the future can you make more contrasting colours on your charts? why do you hate the colour blind, I cant tell a squad member from a blue *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17408	Posted - 2015.02.13 15:02:00 - [57] - Quote Atiim wrote: How is the Tactical AR underpowered when it does more damage than the SCR, can fire more shots than the SCR can before overheating, has the same RPM, while only having -15m? How is the Burst AR underpowered when it does more damage than the CR, has a larger magazine than the CR (even with MinAssault V), has the same RPM, while only having -12m? Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. Claiming it does is fallacious because it fails to assess other factors which would cause it to be used more (or less), such as objectives being CQC oriented, weapons only being able to damage vehicles, weapon isn't great against the most prevalent tank, etc. Easy examples would be the pre-1.7 Swarm Launcher, which despite being overpowered still remained as the 3rd least used Light Weapon, and the the SMG which despite being the most used Sidearm in the history of DUST is balanced and has adequate advantages and drawbacks to other weapons. Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. It's just facts, that need to be reconciliated with those things. Why indeed? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 7784	Posted - 2015.02.13 15:08:00 - [58] - Quote Atiim wrote: Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. If useage was the only data he was examining, then yes, you would be right. In the OP he clearly states... CCP Rattati wrote: The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" Rattati is also monitoring each weapon's Kills/Spawn: their killing efficiency. "You don't want McSyphilis. Don't nobody want McSyphilis." - One Eyed King
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4955	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:07:00 - [59] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range I guess I will be using my sidearm more in the near future... But then just about every proposed solution we have come up with to balance the HMG would lead to Sentinels having to switch to sidearms in specific situations, so I guess we will try the range approach and see how it works out. This seems like a reasonable solution to me. I often carry a longer range sidearm...and then realize I don't really need it most of the time "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7173	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:21:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range why aren't we looking at reversing the role and making them vulnerable in CQC and deadly at long range? There's only so many more nerf options before the stupid thing gets pushed off a cliff. I'm not trying to be high and mighty or condescending. I'm honestly believing CQC HMGs aren't working, haven't worked as intended since their inception and making them and the Sentinel platform a CQC thing was a bad idea to begin with. We also need to consider that in my experience most HMG engagements and kills happen at 20m or less. Sentinels hug CQC areas like it's their lifeline to force people to fight them on optimal terms for them. Anything inside 20m is chutney, so that's where the hits tend to happen. until you drop the HMG below shotgun optimal these nerfs are going to be a zero-sum effort because a logi and tight spaces will do the work and they will continue racking up kills. It'll also see more fatties resorting to tactics like murder taxis to bypass the range restrictions. Ejecting sentinels from CQC is, in my opinion, the best answer. AV

Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2376	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:32:00 - [61] - Quote Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7173	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:36:00 - [62] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. RR should have had a sharpshooter skill to reduce recoil, and the calassault should have a charge time reduction. AV
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 957	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:37:00 - [63] - Quote Travis Stanush wrote: alias lycan wrote: Don't assume lack of popularity means a weapon is UP. The only gun that I see that might need adjustments is the ASCR. I don't really have enough experience with TAC ARs but I've been running burst ARs almost exclusively and I refuse to believe they're UP. I second this particular opinion. As of now I would say Tac AR's are in a good spot overall and the burst well I will just say that they work surprisingly well. I've run CR since day one, over a year ago, and just recently tried the burst AR. With one damage mode, makes up for the damage profile against armor, it is great. Seems people freak when their Sheilds disappear in two shots and then are easier to finish. I only have problems with amarr assaults and sentiniels. Their hard but not impossible. I actually prefer the slower rate of fire with the burst AR over the CR. Would prolly use it as my main if it had a slightly slower rate of fire but maintaining same DPS. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 957	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:47:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It's not just the HMG. It's the design philosophy behind the HMG and sentinel is restricting a slow, heavily armored sensor-blind monster to CQC. Why does the HMG overperform? Because CQC dominance means it's expected to function best in an environment that negates most of it's disadvantages. Bluntly the only reason to have something built like a sentinel is if it's expected to be exposed providing supporting fire and needs to be able to take multiple strong hits. I remember the original heavy turn speed penalty. It allowed people to circle tge fatty and use superior mobility to rip said heavy apart. Basically it negated the heavy's CQC role entirely. But it didn't really interfere with the forge gun's lethality at a distance. Why? Because the forge gun is a long-range, open ground weapon. You didn't expect to live if an assault or a scout got too close. So why do I bring it up? Because it could have been a balancing factor to a fire SUPPORT platform. HMG sentinels are at the top because you can too-easily use them as lockdown point defense and heavy assault suits. They are in environments where their mobility issues are a nonfactor and they can casually negate sensor blindness by putting their backs in a corner or having a rep tool behind them. I agree with this Completely!!!! It NEEDS to happen. It will improve he game A LOT!!! + 10 Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 251	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:53:00 - [65] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: duster 35000 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this tells me is that shield suits are still deeply in the minority despite the fact that they are damn good. And that any scrambler tech instantly forces them to use armor suits, while armor doesn't have to change. Umm, have you seen what a Combat Rifle does to armor? Or explosive spam that is common in CQC maps? Saying that armor suits don't have their hard counters is bullshit. The majority of weapons on the field are anti armor. Armor suits don't have a hard counter. scrambler tech kills shield suits very very fast, while using a CR doesn't instakill armor. Molestia approved
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 252	Posted - 2015.02.13 16:59:00 - [66] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. RR should have had a sharpshooter skill to reduce recoil, and the calassault should have a charge time reduction. Why do people keeping saying that? It's a very ****** bonus, charge time? There are many better ones than a crappy bonus. Molestia approved
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 957	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:03:00 - [67] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range why aren't we looking at reversing the role and making them vulnerable in CQC and deadly at long range? There's only so many more nerf options before the stupid thing gets pushed off a cliff. I'm not trying to be high and mighty or condescending. I'm honestly believing CQC HMGs aren't working, haven't worked as intended since their inception and making them and the Sentinel platform a CQC thing was a bad idea to begin with. We also need to consider that in my experience most HMG engagements and kills happen at 20m or less. Sentinels hug CQC areas like it's their lifeline to force people to fight them on optimal terms for them. Anything inside 20m is chutney, so that's where the hits tend to happen. until you drop the HMG below shotgun optimal these nerfs are going to be a zero-sum effort because a logi and tight spaces will do the work and they will continue racking up kills. It'll also see more fatties resorting to tactics like murder taxis to bypass the range restrictions. Ejecting sentinels from CQC is, in my opinion, the best answer. Again I can't see in flaw in breakin's logic. Or any viable alternative! Logics just makes sense. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7177	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:15:00 - [68] - Quote duster 35000 wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. RR should have had a sharpshooter skill to reduce recoil, and the calassault should have a charge time reduction. Why do people keeping saying that? It's a very [DATA REDACTED], charge time? There are many better ones than a crappy bonus. you can always make the sharpshooter charge time and the suit bonus to kick. Charge time DOES make a pronounced difference in the damage output of the weapon. AV
Ku Shala UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE 1257	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:24:00 - [69] - Quote do these include weapons with damage mods. can we have the data only for fits without damage mods too? *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist Superior technology will privale.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7177	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:25:00 - [70] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: do these include weapons with damage mods. can we have the data only for fits without damage mods too? that would actually give an interesting take on it, as would the dropsuits they're primarily being used on. AV

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9563	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:29:00 - [71] - Quote TAR sucks because its supposed to be a ranged rifle that sucks when you compare it to other ranged rifles. On its own its incredibly good Rattati and you'd have to be very careful with buffing it because its borderline OP right now with a turbo controller. Most people pick up the TAR and suspect to use it like a M21 from most others games when it really doesn't have the comparative range to other weapons perform well in that area. If I were to have it my way id decrees the Mag size back to what it was and increase the optimal range on the rifle as well as increase recoil, I want that weapon to lower everytime it fires. Damage should be looked at afterwards. *~New Eden's #1 Gallente Arm's Dealer*
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 957	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:30:00 - [72] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: It's not just the HMG. It's the design philosophy behind the HMG and sentinel is restricting a slow, heavily armored sensor-blind monster to CQC. Why does the HMG overperform? Because CQC dominance means it's expected to function best in an environment that negates most of it's disadvantages. Bluntly the only reason to have something built like a sentinel is if it's expected to be exposed providing supporting fire and needs to be able to take multiple strong hits. I remember the original heavy turn speed penalty. It allowed people to circle tge fatty and use superior mobility to rip said heavy apart. Basically it negated the heavy's CQC role entirely. But it didn't really interfere with the forge gun's lethality at a distance. Why? Because the forge gun is a long-range, open ground weapon. You didn't expect to live if an assault or a scout got too close. So why do I bring it up? Because it could have been a balancing factor to a fire SUPPORT platform. HMG sentinels are at the top because you can too-easily use them as lockdown point defense and heavy assault suits. They are in environments where their mobility issues are a nonfactor and they can casually negate sensor blindness by putting their backs in a corner or having a rep tool behind them. Breakin, how would the affect CQC? Do you foresee any imbalances after the sentiniels removal from CQC? Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7177	Posted - 2015.02.13 17:50:00 - [73] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Breakin, how would the affect CQC? Do you foresee any imbalances after the sentiniels removal from CQC? people will start whining that the galassault is OP. AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2181	Posted - 2015.02.13 18:18:00 - [74] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. RR should have had a sharpshooter skill to reduce recoil, and the calassault should have a charge time reduction. Nooooooo. This breaks the rifle. The charge time reduction is fractions of a second it is not a good bonus. Kick reduction is fine. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
J0LLY R0G3R And the ButtPirates 2127	Posted - 2015.02.13 19:20:00 - [75] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Current Burst AR in action If thats not good enough, then what is? clearly it is under powered. needs buff XD TLDR : XD
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2872	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:16:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. It's just facts, that need to be reconciliated with those things. Why indeed? Because they're niche weapons. Naturally they're not going to perform as well as weapons that don't require as much finesse to use. A long range single-shot tactical rifle is harder to get kills with than a spray-n-pray ACR or RR or what have you. Ease-of-use plays a large part into why weapons perform better than others. You said yourself that the HMG is overperforming, and the HMG is probably hands down the easiest weapon to get kills with assuming you're in optimal range. In order to get a clearer picture I wanted to give some alternative ways to look at the data: Firing Mode 10. Full-auto 9. Burst-fire 8. Single-shot 7. Full-auto with charge-up 6. Single-shot 5. Full-auto 4. Burst-fire 3. Full-auto 2. Full-auto 1. Full-auto with charge-up Damage Profile 10. Laser 9. Plasma 8. Plasma 7. Rail 6. Laser 5. Plasma 4. Projectile 3. Plasma 2. Projectile 1. Rail Theoretical ADV DPS (Shield / Armor) 10. 490 / 327 9. 649 / 531 8. 765 / 626 7. 360 / 440 6. 818 / 546 5. 476 / 389 4. 482 / 652 3. 479 / 392 2. 354 / 479 1. 342 / 418 Damage Per Clip (Excluding Damage Profile) 10. 2498 9 . 2065 8. 1668 7. 2320 6. 2047 5. 2271 4. 1530 3. 1830 2. 1416 1. 2072 Time to Expend Clip (Assuming Max ROF, Disregarding Overheat, Including Charge-up) 10. 6.1s 9. 3.5s 8. 2.4s 7. 6.1s 6. 3.0s 5. 5.3s 4. 2.7s 3. 4.2s 2. 3.4s 1. 5.9s These are just some different ways to look at the data. Take from it what you will. I want to give the people here more ways beyond "kills" to look at the weapons to discuss them. I'll give my own insights in a later post. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 132	Posted - 2015.02.13 21:06:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jathniel wrote: You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. This is someone biased in favor of the TAR, pleading with you not to buff it any further. It really does not need it. It is a GOOD thing that the TAR takes skill to use, and is limited to a few users. TAR worst K/S bar none...don't know how those opinions "align" The main issue with the Tac AR is it's kick is slightly to high. You slow down your fire rate a lot to go for accurate headshots. I can put multiple bursts on the burst AR on the head and that extra damage makes it very effective even beyond the edge of it's range. If it's kick was lowered, it would be perfect. (also, please make a standard variant of it. MY standard commando needs one) Another reason why it might be less popular now is because of the fact that the Min assault is popular right now, and it is hard to hit speedy, twitchy people with a semi automatic gun. The burst seems nice right now, and if it did slightly more damage I think it might shine a bit more. Lastly, the main issue of assault rifles is the big gap between effective and optimal range. It's 28m. Compare this to the 20m of the RR and ScR, and you add the fact that their range is so low, and you can see why even though it is effective at 90m, the tac is only doing max damage up to to 62m. This is how all the ARs work. (And I think maybe combat rifles too.) Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
The-Errorist 1044	Posted - 2015.02.13 22:20:00 - [78] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. RR should have had a sharpshooter skill to reduce recoil, and the calassault should have a charge time reduction. Cal assault should have a bonus towards reload speed and recoil reduction and here's the trello card to vote it. duster 35000 wrote: Armor suits don't have a hard counter. scrambler tech kills shield suits very very fast, while using a CR doesn't instakill armor. We need tactical combat & rail rifles. Also to shields need to have a threshold of damage required to start shield recharge pause like there is for vehicles. It should be around 10 damage. Suits, Tanks, a mode
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7181	Posted - 2015.02.13 22:22:00 - [79] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Not sure if on topic, but the RR seriously kicks too much in ADS. Think it about it lore wise too, why would a long range race allow their primary use rifle to kick so damn much, regardless of the technological realities. Honestly it makes the weapon a pain to use on anything other than scouts. Also the ridiculous hipfire kick makes it nauseating to use on a big screen. I honestly wish we could just make it have horrid hipfire accuracy, like the Tac Ar but worse, and have close to 0 kick like most other weapons. RR should have had a sharpshooter skill to reduce recoil, and the calassault should have a charge time reduction. Cal assault should have a bonus towards reload speed and recoil reduction and here's the trello card to vote it. duster 35000 wrote: Armor suits don't have a hard counter. scrambler tech kills shield suits very very fast, while using a CR doesn't instakill armor. We need tactical combat & rail rifles. Also to shields need to have a there needs to be a threshold of damage required to start shield recharge pause like there is for vehicles. It should be around 10 damage. There is literally no weapon in the game that will fail to do 10 damage With one bullet. AV
Luis rules 1st Valor Coalition 56	Posted - 2015.02.13 22:42:00 - [80] - Quote Maybe just another comment, but here it goes. Maybe it's getting a little out of topic, but I don't believe by any reason HMG are OP. HMG are good only if they are at proper range. With that being said, plasma weapons (like TAR and burst AR) should have a greater damage. I wouldn't give them more range, as it would mess with the others weapon range, but plasma weapons, as in EvE, should be devastating at the proper distance. (Similar to the HMG and that's the reason I started this with that comment). The Assault scramble needs maybe a little more damage and less recoil. It's not suitable to kill someone at the effective range due recoil. But anyway, the low kills with this weapon is due most people with this weapon also have Amarr suits, and if you already have an Amarr, better use the regular scramble. As long as the regular scramble can deal that much damage and the assault can't, it won't be used. So adjusting this weapon would require also a slight decrease in damage for the scramble. The trade-up in most weapons between regular and assault is clear, but in Scramble, where there is no reason to use the assault version. Also, getting out of topic again, but the combat riffle can't be used at its full potential inside installations. Maybe this is due the FPS generally decrease indoors, but shouldn't happen, imo. L8er! Edit: Breakin Stuff wrote: There is literally no weapon in the game that will fail to do 10 damage With one bullet. It's related to the range. I could shot my SMG at an awesome distance and stop your shields from regenerating some time. So I support the idea of dealing a minimal damage before stopping the shields from regenerating. And if you believe 10 is too low, maybe 20 then. It has to be less than any bullet at the right distance, tho.

The-Errorist 1046	Posted - 2015.02.13 22:56:00 - [81] - Quote Luis rules 1st wrote: .... Edit: Breakin Stuff wrote: There is literally no weapon in the game that will fail to do 10 damage With one bullet. It's related to the range. I could shot my SMG at an awesome distance and stop your shields from regenerating some time. So I support the idea of dealing a minimal damage before stopping the shields from regenerating. And if you believe 10 is too low, maybe 20 then. It has to be less than any bullet at the right distance, tho. 10 is a good starting number; 20 would be too high because that's around how much a combat rilfe, SMG, and HMG does per bullet. Suits, Tanks, a mode
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1763	Posted - 2015.02.14 00:10:00 - [82] - Quote This is awesome, but please please pretty please label your axes and define parameters! This is one of the first things they drill into your head in any statistics class, you need to tell the viewer what an axis means and the units it's measured in for it to be a proper graph. Like this one is pretty and all, but I have no idea what 0%-100% means or the units that's measured in. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15605	Posted - 2015.02.14 00:58:00 - [83] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Atiim wrote: Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. If useage was the only data he was examining, then yes, you would be right. In the OP he clearly states... CCP Rattati wrote: The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" Rattati is also monitoring each weapon's Kills/Spawn: their killing efficiency. Still a flawed premise. Kills per Spawn data is influenced by a variety of factors beyond the power of a weapon, such as how skilled the players using a weapon is, how skilled the players fighting against the weapon are, the environment the weapon is being used in, the HP type the weapon's being used against, etc. As such, attempting to balance anything around KSR without assessing why an item has an abnormal KSR foolish, and won't do anything besides making a balanced weapon OP or UP. CCP Rattati wrote: Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. Which means that the players using the weapons are terrible, hence why they perform so poorly with variants that are superior to the ones which your data ironically claims are overpowered. Though besides usage and KSR (which are both flawed methods of determining a weapon's power), is there any actual reason as to why the Burst and Tactical ARs need a buff? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
PLAYSTTION Corrosive Synergy 506	Posted - 2015.02.14 02:30:00 - [84] - Quote The burst AR is UP? sure whatever you say buff it some more!!! Gassault Calogi and more. `- Open Beta Vet - 35mil sp - - Director of Corrosive Synergy -`
DRT 99 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 101	Posted - 2015.02.14 02:49:00 - [85] - Quote @Rattati I realize that you said that these measurements were taken at ADV, and that all 3 underperforming weapon variants are available, but hear me out. I believe part of the reason they arent being used as much is not because they are bad, but because people are inexperienced with them - this in turn is because they are not available at basic. people naturally tend to lean towards things they already know and are comfortable with. Ontop of that, new players dont want to risk 10k ISK on an adv weapon when they die frequently just to try out a new variant. I believe that making these variants available at basic will lead to increased use at other tiers, the BrAR is available at standard right now, but only through the gal LP store (regular item and on the APEX galmando)
The-Errorist 1046	Posted - 2015.02.14 04:15:00 - [86] - Quote These are rifle changes that I think are needed: a small hip-fire spread nerf for the scrambler rifle a small recoil buff for the tactical plasma rifle. Suits, Tanks, a mode
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8709	Posted - 2015.02.14 07:00:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range The range, huh..? Couldn't be that exclusion from the 10% damage reduction to all weaponry, bar the HMG, back in 1.7/1.8..? What would reducing the range do other than make it slightly less effective at "rifle" range (excluded the Assault Rifle who is always going to have to compete with the HMG). Come on, give me a reason to want to use the AR over the HMG. 5-10m of extra range doesn't do jack when the DPS on the HMG makes up for that. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8709	Posted - 2015.02.14 07:03:00 - [88] - Quote Atiim wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: Atiim wrote: Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. If useage was the only data he was examining, then yes, you would be right. In the OP he clearly states... CCP Rattati wrote: The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" Rattati is also monitoring each weapon's Kills/Spawn: their killing efficiency. Still a flawed premise. Kills per Spawn data is influenced by a variety of factors beyond the power of a weapon, such as how skilled the players using a weapon is, how skilled the players fighting against the weapon are, the environment the weapon is being used in, the HP type the weapon's being used against, etc. As such, attempting to balance anything around KSR without assessing why an item has an abnormal KSR foolish, and won't do anything besides making a balanced weapon OP or UP. CCP Rattati wrote: Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. Which means that the players using the weapons are terrible, hence why they perform so poorly with variants that are superior to the ones which your data ironically claims are overpowered. Though besides usage and KSR (which are both flawed methods of determining a weapon's power), is there any actual reason as to why the Burst and Tactical ARs need a buff? I use the TAR frequently. Have a few videos posted where I use it. It's a very niche weapon that needs the correct environment. Scrambler Rifle is better and it's probably not surprising to anyone that I started using it in place of my TAR. TAR can't make up for the ability to charge shot, longer range, etc. I've had a long drawn out argument about this in another thread. If you want the TAR to be more competitive, needs to have something that'll compete with the Scrambler Rifle - which won't happen because the Scrambler rifle is just outright better. TAR would need excruciatingly high alpha damage to make up for a lack of charge, range, etc. No-one will allow that for fear of it being OP. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 08:32:00 - [89] - Quote Recoil reduction. Probably wouldn't even take MUCH recoil reduction. AV
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 158	Posted - 2015.02.14 08:45:00 - [90] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: ASCR is actually an incredibly good rifle without heat. Fastest reload, tight dispersion, arguably best sight of all the Assault variants, excellent range, etc'. It also has a high damage per mag, though I don't remember if the AR caught up or not since the mag damage increase. I really don't know why it doesn't perform. Because modern control + SCR > ASCR Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M

EET SUM MOR Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2015.02.14 08:49:00 - [91] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Why are all the colors around the same tones! You're damn right
EET SUM MOR Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2015.02.14 08:56:00 - [92] - Quote ...may I suggest a further Breach AR nerf, maybe another mag reduction, like ten rounds x mag? I'm just saying, if you want to ruin a weapon like the great Breach AR was, you're just on the right path, and for the courtesy to all whiners as well.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 08:56:00 - [93] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Cat Merc wrote: ASCR is actually an incredibly good rifle without heat. Fastest reload, tight dispersion, arguably best sight of all the Assault variants, excellent range, etc'. It also has a high damage per mag, though I don't remember if the AR caught up or not since the mag damage increase. I really don't know why it doesn't perform. Because modern control + SCR > ASCR Modded controllers are the gaming equivalent of filing down the sear of an AK-47. AV
Greiv Rabbah 13Art of War13 66	Posted - 2015.02.14 09:05:00 - [94] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: How is the Tactical AR underpowered when it does more damage than the SCR, can fire more shots than the SCR can before overheating, has the same RPM, while only having -15m? How is the Burst AR underpowered when it does more damage than the CR, has a larger magazine than the CR (even with MinAssault V), has the same RPM, while only having -12m? Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. Claiming it does is fallacious because it fails to assess other factors which would cause it to be used more (or less), such as objectives being CQC oriented, weapons only being able to damage vehicles, weapon isn't great against the most prevalent tank, examples would be the pre-1.7 Swarm Launcher, which despite being overpowered still remained as the 3rd least used Light Weapon, and the the SMG which despite being the most used Sidearm in the history of DUST is balanced and has adequate advantages and drawbacks to other weapons. Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. It's just facts, that need to be reconciliated with those things. Why indeed? The tactical plasma rifle and burst plasma rifle are both close range weapons(blasters) while the cr is a short-mid range weapon(firearms) and the scr is a mid-long range weapon(lasers). These weapons may be underperforming as a result of players trying to use a tar the same as they'd use a scr(fire from range instead of splatter in cqc) or the bar as a cr(potshots from a distance instead of a hard and fast ambush at close range. A blaster cant be treated as a firearm for the simple fact that the forcefield won't carry the fireballs as far as the compressor will hurl the metal shards. In the same way the compressor in a firearm can't hurl the metal shards as far/fast as the crystal can focus the energy pulses. In the same way, a scr vs a tactical snr will lose out bc even though they're both a tactical rifle, the electromagnets in the tactical snr(railgun) shoot the flechette much farther than a laser can travel before the pulse decays. Tl;dr... The tar and bar are probably used poorly not bc of being UP but because people treat every gun in dust as a firearm. A lot of them are blasters, lasers, or railguns, and blasters should be kept at blaster range, not firearm or laser range
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 09:26:00 - [95] - Quote Let's be honest. You could normalize all the rifles at 500 DPS and the firing mechanics and profiles would change the feel of all of them. With minor tweaking to alpha, RoF, range and such you would get a lot of weapons that feel different and perform different in various situations. I know it's a COD/BF type thing but I haven't seen any other shooter where the same gun can have two different performance profiles based on what it's shooting at. It just isn't done. Every other game treats shields as regenerating armor. Not saying it's the grandest idea but it makes sense given the battle rifles all perform the same function, or at least they are SUPPOSED to. Why woukd you make a plasma rifle that couldn't compete with the rail rifle? From a military/weapons expert perspective that's ass-backward. AV
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1474	Posted - 2015.02.14 09:54:00 - [96] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I use the TAR frequently. Have a few videos posted where I use it. It's a very niche weapon that needs the correct environment. Scrambler Rifle is better and it's probably not surprising to anyone that I started using it in place of my TAR. TAR can't make up for the ability to charge shot, longer range, etc. I've had a long drawn out argument about this in another thread. If you want the TAR to be more competitive, needs to have something that'll compete with the Scrambler Rifle - which won't happen because the Scrambler rifle is just outright better. TAR would need excruciatingly high alpha damage to make up for a lack of charge, range, etc. No-one will allow that for fear of it being OP. The TAR already has dreadfully high alpha damage. With damage mods it's a nightmare. Some folks just haven't rediscovered it yet. I respect the Scrambler Rifle, but the TAR was meant to imitate, not surpass it. It's in a good spot. Just some extra range. Give it a some reach, and it'll be used more. At the moment, the TAR has better zoom than the scrambler rifle, but less range. Let it rival the scrambler rifle's range, and I guarantee you will see increased usage. But damage buffs would put it over the edge. Retired

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17443	Posted - 2015.02.14 09:57:00 - [97] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: This is awesome, but please please pretty please label your axes and define parameters! This is one of the first things they drill into your head in any statistics class, you need to tell the viewer what an axis means and the units it's measured in for it to be a proper graph. Like this one is pretty and all, but I have no idea what 0%-100% means or the units that's measured in. This is a stacked area chart and only shows the mix of kills. The colors align with the categories on the right and are in the same order. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx 414	Posted - 2015.02.14 10:09:00 - [98] - Quote I know im in the minority but I'd like the tar better with iron sights. That scope is wonky and unnecessary. "In a world gone mad,only a lunatic is truly insane" Homer J Simpson
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1767	Posted - 2015.02.14 10:52:00 - [99] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: This is awesome, but please please pretty please label your axes and define parameters! This is one of the first things they drill into your head in any statistics class, you need to tell the viewer what an axis means and the units it's measured in for it to be a proper graph. Like this one is pretty and all, but I have no idea what 0%-100% means or the units that's measured in. This is a stacked area chart and only shows the mix of kills. The colors align with the categories on the right and are in the same order. This displeases me. Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 10:54:00 - [100] - Quote Any comments on my assessment of the HMG Rattati? AV

Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8712	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:03:00 - [101] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I use the TAR frequently. Have a few videos posted where I use it. It's a very niche weapon that needs the correct environment. Scrambler Rifle is better and it's probably not surprising to anyone that I started using it in place of my TAR. TAR can't make up for the ability to charge shot, longer range, etc. I've had a long drawn out argument about this in another thread. If you want the TAR to be more competitive, needs to have something that'll compete with the Scrambler Rifle - which won't happen because the Scrambler rifle is just outright better. TAR would need excruciatingly high alpha damage to make up for a lack of charge, range, etc. No-one will allow that for fear of it being OP. The TAR already has dreadfully high alpha damage. With damage mods it's a nightmare. Some folks just haven't rediscovered it yet. I respect the Scrambler Rifle, but the TAR was meant to imitate, not surpass it. It's in a good spot. Just some extra range. Give it a some reach, and it'll be used more. At the moment, the TAR has better zoom than the scrambler rifle, but less range. Let it rival the scrambler rifle's range, and I guarantee you will see increased usage. But damage buffs would put it over the edge. Oh lord, here we go with the whole "it's an imitator and shouldn't be competitive against it because it's not the real thing". Seriously, I really do hate that argument, it's archaic and out-dated. With that logic, all the Assault variants should pale in comparison to the Assault Rifle but they don't. In some cases, in particular the ARR, they're even better. It's -always- been that way. The constant misconception that a weapon has to be worse than a similar weapon just because of some concept a CCP Dev put down two years ago shouldn't even be a thing anymore. If anything we should have evolved from that with racial takes on the variations including their own unique flare to make the weapon competitive; and by that logic the TAR would have -much- higher damage than the Scrambler Rifle while simultaneously having lower range. The question you have to ask: "What is the functionality of this weapon if it is an imitator that isn't competitive with the other weapon?" Functionless gameplay is a waste of time. If your idea doesn't serve a purpose, providing something new and unique that we don't already have, then it doesn't need to be implemented because we already have that. Making something "kinda similar but not as powerful because #reasons" is just annoying, adds repetition, and punishes players for making the wrong choices. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Izlare Lenix Pub Stars 1253	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:20:00 - [102] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: How is the Tactical AR underpowered when it does more damage than the SCR, can fire more shots than the SCR can before overheating, has the same RPM, while only having -15m? How is the Burst AR underpowered when it does more damage than the CR, has a larger magazine than the CR (even with MinAssault V), has the same RPM, while only having -12m? Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. Claiming it does is fallacious because it fails to assess other factors which would cause it to be used more (or less), such as objectives being CQC oriented, weapons only being able to damage vehicles, weapon isn't great against the most prevalent tank, etc. Easy examples would be the pre-1.7 Swarm Launcher, which despite being overpowered still remained as the 3rd least used Light Weapon, and the the SMG which despite being the most used Sidearm in the history of DUST is balanced and has adequate advantages and drawbacks to other weapons. Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. It's just facts, that need to be reconciliated with those things. Why indeed? Power also has to deal with ease of use. The hmg is so powerful because it has massive dps, massive clip, too much range and it's easy as hell to use all while using the highest ehp suits in the game. Meanwhile Nova Nova knives can one swipe almost every suit in the game but they are not easy to use. The limited range of knives paired with low ehp suits balance them perfectly with their ability to ohk almost everything. But because they require real skill, they are not as common as other weapons even though they are extremely strong. I think this is why armor based weapons dominate this chart. They are easier to use most of the time and since dust is way too armor based you are more likely to get the kill with an armor based weapon. Also consider this. As a ScR user at least 1/3 (sometimes more) of my kills are achieved with my smg to avoid overheating my ScR. This is something almost no other weapon has to deal with except maybe the Tar with its small clip. I have also noticed way more kills stolen when I use shield based weapons especially during that 1/2 second I am switching to my smg. It is quite annoying and I'm sure it is skewing this graph. The only real truth in history is that it was bloody.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7184	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:51:00 - [103] - Quote Rather than simply hacking stats off the HMG I would like to see it made more difficult to employ. Honestly using real life examples gives ample methods for bringing the weapon to heel. AV
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5352	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:34:00 - [104] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Rather than simply hacking stats off the HMG I would like to see it made more difficult to employ. Honestly using real life examples gives ample methods for bringing the weapon to heel. Care to.... add more. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1474	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:49:00 - [105] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Jathniel wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I use the TAR frequently. Have a few videos posted where I use it. It's a very niche weapon that needs the correct environment. Scrambler Rifle is better and it's probably not surprising to anyone that I started using it in place of my TAR. TAR can't make up for the ability to charge shot, longer range, etc. I've had a long drawn out argument about this in another thread. If you want the TAR to be more competitive, needs to have something that'll compete with the Scrambler Rifle - which won't happen because the Scrambler rifle is just outright better. TAR would need excruciatingly high alpha damage to make up for a lack of charge, range, etc. No-one will allow that for fear of it being OP. The TAR already has dreadfully high alpha damage. With damage mods it's a nightmare. Some folks just haven't rediscovered it yet. I respect the Scrambler Rifle, but the TAR was meant to imitate, not surpass it. It's in a good spot. Just some extra range. Give it a some reach, and it'll be used more. At the moment, the TAR has better zoom than the scrambler rifle, but less range. Let it rival the scrambler rifle's range, and I guarantee you will see increased usage. But damage buffs would put it over the edge. Oh lord, here we go with the whole "it's an imitator and shouldn't be competitive against it because it's not the real thing". Seriously, I really do hate that argument, it's archaic and out-dated. With that logic, all the Assault variants should pale in comparison to the Assault Rifle but they don't. In some cases, in particular the ARR, they're even better. It's -always- been that way. The constant misconception that a weapon has to be worse than a similar weapon just because of some concept a CCP Dev put down two years ago shouldn't even be a thing anymore. If anything we should have evolved from that with racial takes on the variations including their own unique flare to make the weapon competitive; and by that logic the TAR would have -much- higher damage than the Scrambler Rifle while simultaneously having lower range. The question you have to ask: "What is the functionality of this weapon if it is an imitator that isn't competitive with the other weapon?" Functionless gameplay is a waste of time. If your idea doesn't serve a purpose, providing something new and unique that we don't already have, then it doesn't need to be implemented because we already have that. Making something "kinda similar but not as powerful because #reasons" is just annoying, adds repetition, and punishes players for making the wrong choices. o0 I didn't say it shouldn't be competitive... I said it shouldn't surpass it. And not "because reasons", but "because balance". The TAR doesn't hit harder than the SCR commensurate to the SCR's range. If we simply increase the TAR's range to approximate the SCR, that will make it an overall more competitive weapon, without supplanting the weapon it's meant to imitate. Increasing it's damage would be like using an ice pick to do a tooth pick's job; it would increase damage at range, but also make it OP within its optimal. As you said, I am one of those that fear a damage buff would make it OP. A moderate range buff however, would not. Arguing whether variants should be better than a family of weapons is moot. You want comparable performance, adaptive as per the situation or target you are facing. We have good balance right now with weapons, but accepting some weapons as UP is not something we should accept, whether or not "its always been that way". Retired
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7189	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:17:00 - [106] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Rather than simply hacking stats off the HMG I would like to see it made more difficult to employ. Honestly using real life examples gives ample methods for bringing the weapon to heel. Care to.... add more. I have, repeatedly. I'd rather not post my spiel more than once per thread. I hate sounding like a broken record. AV
Valish'r Dravix Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:36:00 - [107] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Rather than simply hacking stats off the HMG I would like to see it made more difficult to employ. Honestly using real life examples gives ample methods for bringing the weapon to heel. Care to.... add more. I have, repeatedly. I'd rather not post my spiel more than once per thread. I hate sounding like a broken record. Repetition is how people learn, so speak once again please. My names Soul, Nocturnal Soul
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7193	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:11:00 - [108] - Quote Fine. This post and this post. AV
Bremen van Equis BASTARDS OF BEDLAM 172	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:17:00 - [109] - Quote Waiter, what's this MATH doing in my WEEKEND?? -or- US citizens are not allowed to do math on Presidents Weekend. It's the law. -or- You got your math all over my weekend. -or- Any gun that kills me is this. All kidding aside thank you for this informationGÇª it's this type of stuff that's missing from every other game I TRY to get into! Buckle up, boysGÇªthis ramp leads to space. -Axe Cop
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1476	Posted - 2015.02.14 22:22:00 - [110] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: We need the kills/spawn ratio of hmg It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. I am working on Hotfix Echo, where the plan is to rein in the range, and nothing else. They are too effective in "rifle" range why aren't we looking at reversing the role and making them vulnerable in CQC and deadly at long range? There's only so many more nerf options before the stupid thing gets pushed off a cliff. I'm not trying to be high and mighty or condescending. I'm honestly believing CQC HMGs aren't working, haven't worked as intended since their inception and making them and the Sentinel platform a CQC thing was a bad idea to begin with. We also need to consider that in my experience most HMG engagements and kills happen at 20m or less. Sentinels hug CQC areas like it's their lifeline to force people to fight them on optimal terms for them. Anything inside 20m is chutney, so that's where the hits tend to happen. until you drop the HMG below shotgun optimal these nerfs are going to be a zero-sum effort because a logi and tight spaces will do the work and they will continue racking up kills. It'll also see more fatties resorting to tactics like murder taxis to bypass the range restrictions. Ejecting sentinels from CQC is, in my opinion, the best answer. Well, I think I like the track you're on, but I can't picture what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting repurposing the HMG as a mid-long range weapon? I look at these things intuitively and I cant see how that would address its overperforming. I was guessing that the HMG was doing well, because it was being used exactly as it was designed to be; and that the only reason we are seeing such high heavy/hmg usage is because the sockets were designed that way (by order of CCP Remnant, whom I still can't forgive over it). Folks were so obsessed with keeping snipers out of the fight, that they directly created the circumstances where heavies would thrive. So what exactly do you have in mind? Retired

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7201	Posted - 2015.02.15 00:45:00 - [111] - Quote Jathniel wrote: So what exactly do you have in mind? put the HMG heavies in a situation where their ideal combat arena is filled with snipers, forge gunners and rail rifles, ideally. If the HMG sucks ass in CQC this breaks the Heavy > All meta in half and forces people to use heavies to keep people out of the facilities entirely, by using them at entrances as overwatch, locking down open fields, etc, and NOT participating gleefully in the knife-fighting. If someone's in knife range the heavy should bluntly be dogmeat unless he's LUCKY. AV
zzZaXxx Capital Acquisitions LLC 722	Posted - 2015.02.15 02:22:00 - [112] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: How is the Tactical AR underpowered when it does more damage than the SCR, can fire more shots than the SCR can before overheating, has the same RPM, while only having -15m? How is the Burst AR underpowered when it does more damage than the CR, has a larger magazine than the CR (even with MinAssault V), has the same RPM, while only having -12m? Your entire premise is flawed because usage does not equate to power. Claiming it does is fallacious because it fails to assess other factors which would cause it to be used more (or less), such as objectives being CQC oriented, weapons only being able to damage vehicles, weapon isn't great against the most prevalent tank, etc. Easy examples would be the pre-1.7 Swarm Launcher, which despite being overpowered still remained as the 3rd least used Light Weapon, and the the SMG which despite being the most used Sidearm in the history of DUST is balanced and has adequate advantages and drawbacks to other weapons. Ask the players, they don't choose those weapons, and when they do, they perform worse with them than other weapons. It's just facts, that need to be reconciliated with those things. Why indeed? I'll tell you why. It aint no secret. TAR: Only Gal Assault can use it somewhat effectively (if you're really REALLY used to it) due to kick and spread. Even Gal Assault will deal with major frustration over its ADS kick though. Try the SCR with Amarr Assault for a while and then switch to GalAss with TAR. With the SCR you have some ADS kick but it's less horizontal (or not at all?) and less overall, so you can keep your crosshairs on target longer and burn em down. With the TAR you're all over the place after a few shots. At the range at which you want to be shooting through that WACK scope it's REALLY hard to stay on target. It can be a powerful weapon, but it's even more of a you-have-to-only-use-it-all-the-time-and-get-used-to-it rifle than SCR, and well...no thanks. I tried. I REALLY tried. But now...pffft SCR all the way when I'm not destroying with ACR. And if it's handling problems aren't enough to turn you away, it misfires. The SCR will shoot a round every single time you touch R1. The TAR will miss a round here and there. NO. Watch that video again where that guy compared the two. ASCR: The way the ASCR works--full auto, huge clip, decent range and accuracy--you need to keep firing and drill your opponent down before he can do critical damage to you...but that will never happen with this gun. Closer up you won't be able to work through his armor fast enough. Meanwhile you're exposed. That equals death. At range you're chipping away at armor so slowly targets tend to find cover. Burst AR: Basically it's the CR with less range and more damage (but less dmg against armor, which constitutes a higher percentage of total HP you're working through), and range trumps damage every time, especially with a burst weapon (full auto is better up close). Also its scope is a joke. The zoom is a liabilty within the range you want to firing down sights with this gun, and teases you into firing beyond your range.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7204	Posted - 2015.02.15 03:54:00 - [113] - Quote I don't use the TAR because... I never really tried it. The burst AR irritates the hell out of me. I like the scrambler rifles on the amarr assault. the burst CR annoys me the assault variants of everything work well for me except the assault rifle itself I prefer the breach AR and I do well with the vanilla RR assault scrambler just doesn't do damage fast enough even against shield suits to make up for the incoming pain you're gettting in turn strafe dancing absolutely exacerbates the worse traits of your lower performance weapons, inertia would actually solve the problem to keep people from juking back and forth without losing speed, which would allow actual aiming skill to come into play. And if you bring in an autocannon I'm speccing out of the HMG. I would like to play a proper machinegunner, thanks AV
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1489	Posted - 2015.02.15 07:41:00 - [114] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: And if you bring in an autocannon I'm speccing out of the HMG. I would like to play a proper machinegunner, thanks Fix the HMG to be like autocannons, like it should I'm the Rayman of uplinks. AIV member. 21 day EVE trial.
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1476	Posted - 2015.02.15 07:48:00 - [115] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jathniel wrote: So what exactly do you have in mind? put the HMG heavies in a situation where their ideal combat arena is filled with snipers, forge gunners and rail rifles, ideally. If the HMG sucks ass in CQC this breaks the Heavy > All meta in half and forces people to use heavies to keep people out of the facilities entirely, by using them at entrances as overwatch, locking down open fields, etc, and NOT participating gleefully in the knife-fighting. If someone's in knife range the heavy should bluntly be dogmeat unless he's LUCKY. That's a tough one...... I can see pulling this off as a redesign of the HMG to mimic the Breach FG. - Can't move when firing. - Super narrow firing cone with hyper-extended range and camera zoom, to put it into the long-range playing field. As a caveat for this repurposing, I would make it effective against vehicles, triple the mag size/max ammo, and cut heat buildup by 50%. I would also give Sentinels a pinch of bandwidth and give them an equipment slot, to carry a hive or an uplink. Proper positioning would be critical, to properly transform the Sentinel from a CQC lurker into a living, mobile, turret. That's quite a change though. I wouldn't expect to hear people backing such a radical transformation for the HMG. Retired
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7209	Posted - 2015.02.15 09:45:00 - [116] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jathniel wrote: So what exactly do you have in mind? put the HMG heavies in a situation where their ideal combat arena is filled with snipers, forge gunners and rail rifles, ideally. If the HMG sucks ass in CQC this breaks the Heavy > All meta in half and forces people to use heavies to keep people out of the facilities entirely, by using them at entrances as overwatch, locking down open fields, etc, and NOT participating gleefully in the knife-fighting. If someone's in knife range the heavy should bluntly be dogmeat unless he's LUCKY. That's a tough one...... I can see pulling this off as a redesign of the HMG to mimic the Breach FG. - Can't move when firing. - Super narrow firing cone with hyper-extended range and camera zoom, to put it into the long-range playing field. As a caveat for this repurposing, I would make it effective against vehicles, triple the mag size/max ammo, and cut heat buildup by 50%. The Sentinel suits will need to be reworked as well. I would give Sentinels a pinch of bandwidth and give them an equipment slot, to carry a hive or an uplink. Maybe increase their resistances by 10%, because if they aren't moving, they are going to be absorbing a LOT of fire. Proper positioning would be critical, to properly transform the Sentinel from a CQC lurker into a living, mobile, turret. That's quite a change though. I wouldn't expect to hear people backing such a radical transformation for the HMG. movement lockdowwn is a crap mechanic. it puts the nail on the coffin of the breach as a useful standalone weapon. Bandwidth is a no in my opinion under any circumstances, right now we do not needthe current best slayer to gain the ability to throw down hives or uplinks. The suits are bluntly fine. I use the IAFG as area denial. It works extremely well in the poen without adjustment. Trust me, sentinels should have been in the open from the first place because the defenses are for a thing intended to take a lot of fire, and open ground makes up for the fact that your detection radius is inferior in all ways to the mark-1 eyeball. the only thing sentinels lack for open ground work is an open ground weapon that performs poorly in CQC besides the Forge. AV
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1025	Posted - 2015.02.15 10:22:00 - [117] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Jathniel wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Jathniel wrote: So what exactly do you have in mind? put the HMG heavies in a situation where their ideal combat arena is filled with snipers, forge gunners and rail rifles, ideally. If the HMG sucks ass in CQC this breaks the Heavy > All meta in half and forces people to use heavies to keep people out of the facilities entirely, by using them at entrances as overwatch, locking down open fields, etc, and NOT participating gleefully in the knife-fighting. If someone's in knife range the heavy should bluntly be dogmeat unless he's LUCKY. That's a tough one...... I can see pulling this off as a redesign of the HMG to mimic the Breach FG. - Can't move when firing. - Super narrow firing cone with hyper-extended range and camera zoom, to put it into the long-range playing field. As a caveat for this repurposing, I would make it effective against vehicles, triple the mag size/max ammo, and cut heat buildup by 50%. The Sentinel suits will need to be reworked as well. I would give Sentinels a pinch of bandwidth and give them an equipment slot, to carry a hive or an uplink. Maybe increase their resistances by 10%, because if they aren't moving, they are going to be absorbing a LOT of fire. Proper positioning would be critical, to properly transform the Sentinel from a CQC lurker into a living, mobile, turret. That's quite a change though. I wouldn't expect to hear people backing such a radical transformation for the HMG. movement lockdowwn is a crap mechanic. it puts the nail on the coffin of the breach as a useful standalone weapon. Bandwidth is a no in my opinion under any circumstances, right now we do not needthe current best slayer to gain the ability to throw down hives or uplinks. The suits are bluntly fine. I use the IAFG as area denial. It works extremely well in the poen without adjustment. Trust me, sentinels should have been in the open from the first place because the defenses are for a thing intended to take a lot of fire, and open ground makes up for the fact that your detection radius is inferior in all ways to the mark-1 eyeball. the only thing sentinels lack for open ground work is an open ground weapon that performs poorly in CQC besides the Forge. What Sentinels are missing for open ground combat is a good Heavy weapon that can perform there. The HMG is a a CQC only weapon and since it is the only good Heavy weapon to slay infantry with. I expect when the Amarr Heavy Weapon comes, we will see tons of Sentinels performing well on open ground. And if the the Caldari gets an Anti-Infantry Heavy Weapon... Sentinels would bee widely used. I forsee them as "Heavy Assaults" while the Assault suits will perform like "Light Assaults" Changes to Damage mods!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7228	Posted - 2015.02.16 18:24:00 - [118] - Quote drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. AV
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 265	Posted - 2015.02.17 02:22:00 - [119] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. Please do not mess with the hmg. If ccp want to makes autocannons in that way go ahead, but the hmg is good as it is right now. I wouldn't tolerate another nerf, in that weapon. Also that is off topic. Talk about the Tar, ascr n bar. Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2196	Posted - 2015.02.17 06:22:00 - [120] - Quote Alex-ZX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. Please do not mess with the hmg. If ccp want to makes autocannons in that way go ahead, but the hmg is good as it is right now. I wouldn't tolerate another nerf, in that weapon. Also that is off topic. Talk about the Tar, ascr n bar. "Please don't take away my 900dps face melter I carry on a 2k ehp suit". Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7243	Posted - 2015.02.17 09:22:00 - [121] - Quote Alex-ZX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. Please do not mess with the hmg. If ccp want to makes autocannons in that way go ahead, but the hmg is good as it is right now. I wouldn't tolerate another nerf, in that weapon. Also that is off topic. Talk about the Tar, ascr n bar. Rattati brought up the HMG needing a nerf. I'm suggesting one because I'd rather have the range than the instamurder. AV
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 266	Posted - 2015.02.17 12:03:00 - [122] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alex-ZX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. Please do not mess with the hmg. If ccp want to makes autocannons in that way go ahead, but the hmg is good as it is right now. I wouldn't tolerate another nerf, in that weapon. Also that is off topic. Talk about the Tar, ascr n bar. Rattati brought up the HMG needing a nerf. I'm suggesting one because I'd rather have the range than the instamurder. Well if there's gonna be a nerf I prefer loosing my range. But the dps is the only good that has that weapon, decreasing it to keep the range is a double nerf, cus' it isn't able to reach a good range, after all if u didn't see HMGs from chromosome, u didn't see anything. Well is a shame that ccp still nerfing that weapon, I can see how the circle is gonna end. Lol Ccp just a petition, please stop nerfing my hmg, because at first instance u said it was able to shoot 12 secs, right now not sure about that promise. And now range? So as a friendly petition. Do not nerf my hmg anymore, at least keep that as it is right now. Thanks. Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7246	Posted - 2015.02.17 15:34:00 - [123] - Quote We knew it was coming. You wanna bury your head in the sand and try to stonewall or would you rather help the rest of us figure out how to meet rattati in the middle so ADS doesn't repeat itself? AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2203	Posted - 2015.02.17 22:28:00 - [124] - Quote Did a little testing today and the assault rail rifle doesn't start having any damage drop off until 71m. This seems to be where this weapon is overperforming I would happily take 100 less dps for 26m more range. Std rail seems to be okay, I'm not 100% on where its overperforming. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2396	Posted - 2015.02.18 06:55:00 - [125] - Quote Alex-ZX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. Please do not mess with the hmg. If ccp want to makes autocannons in that way go ahead, but the hmg is good as it is right now. I wouldn't tolerate another nerf, in that weapon. Also that is off topic. Talk about the Tar, ascr n bar. Lol. "Tolerate" What are you gonna do? Send Ratatti to the principals office? Home at Last <3
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 268	Posted - 2015.02.18 11:40:00 - [126] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Alex-ZX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: drop HMG to 2000 RPM, increase range to 40m. puts it at 650 DPS-ish. Please do not mess with the hmg. If ccp want to makes autocannons in that way go ahead, but the hmg is good as it is right now. I wouldn't tolerate another nerf, in that weapon. Also that is off topic. Talk about the Tar, ascr n bar. Lol. "Tolerate" What are you gonna do? Send Ratatti to the principals office? Haha u may be a child. I just would stop using the hmg, or would find another way to annoy ppl with. Tolerate.. Is just a way to say "no I will stop using it" after all is not my game or anything like that, but ccp is doing the same as they did, however, still having a ton of sp to spec into something else, I haven't use the hmg seriously in a good time, but I felt that it was perfect, maybe it seems op because there are many noobs. Well that is part of another topic. Ccp for the ascr I would increase its damage something like a 5 or 3% and see how it works. It's not a really good weapon because of the damage and specialisation that one has to do. Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2551	Posted - 2015.02.18 16:37:00 - [127] - Quote Just reduce HMG dispersion. I don't see why this is hard to realize. HMG kills because a lot of weak bullets hit you really fast. Cutting the range is pointless because you can still apply a metric f*ckton of bullets into a target. Just increase dispersion so that less bullets actually make contact. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 434	Posted - 2015.02.18 19:12:00 - [128] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Jathniel wrote: You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. This is someone biased in favor of the TAR, pleading with you not to buff it any further. It really does not need it. It is a GOOD thing that the TAR takes skill to use, and is limited to a few users. TAR worst K/S bar none...don't know how those opinions "align" It needs a range buff. The tactical rifles should be good at picking at people from long range, but you actually have to enter combat rifle optimal to use the TAR well, this means its going to be directly competing with stuff like the CR/ACR/ARR that can just poop way more damage unless you are using a modded controller on that TAR. The range difference and the difference in kick is why the scrambler is better than the TAR, it doesnt have to deal with the damage falloff or the weapon kicking off target, so the SCR ends up being much better at all ranges. P.S. please nerf SCR burst performance (not talking about the charge shot, talking about the massive 10+ shot alpha damage you can crap out in half a second) Also TAR and SCR are still horrifically exploitable by people using modded controllers to fire as many shots as they can in virtually 0 time.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2398	Posted - 2015.02.18 22:38:00 - [129] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Jathniel wrote: You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. This is someone biased in favor of the TAR, pleading with you not to buff it any further. It really does not need it. It is a GOOD thing that the TAR takes skill to use, and is limited to a few users. TAR worst K/S bar none...don't know how those opinions "align" It needs a range buff. The tactical rifles should be good at picking at people from long range, but you actually have to enter combat rifle optimal to use the TAR well, this means its going to be directly competing with stuff like the CR/ACR/ARR that can just poop way more damage unless you are using a modded controller on that TAR. The range difference and the difference in kick is why the scrambler is better than the TAR, it doesnt have to deal with the damage falloff or the weapon kicking off target, so the SCR ends up being much better at all ranges. P.S. please nerf SCR burst performance (not talking about the charge shot, talking about the massive 10+ shot alpha damage you can crap out in half a second) Also TAR and SCR are still horrifically exploitable by people using modded controllers to fire as many shots as they can in virtually 0 time. 1.) Adding range to the TacAR isn't an option without also buffing the ScR range or nerfing TacAR Damage, both of which I'm sure you're quite against. It has a mere 5m less optimal than the ScR, add any meaningful range to it, and it will outrange the ScR, which is out of the question. 2.)ScR has more kick than the TacAR. And theTacAR with sharpshooter and Galassault has miniscule kick. Small enough to be practically nonexistent. The major differences between the two is that the ScR kicks harder and straight up, while the TAC kicks softer and more wildly. I won't lie, the ScR has a more desirable aiming kick overall, but the TacAR also has a more desirable hipfire overall. This seems to work well racially. 3.) I don't understand how somebody can complain about the ScRs burst damage, but not the TacARs. The TacAR has more bust damage than the ScR. Their RoF is the same and the TAC does more damage, so it just seems silly to me to say something like that in defense of the TAC. "For every finger you point, you point three back at yourself..." Home at Last <3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6761	Posted - 2015.02.19 00:26:00 - [130] - Quote Thinking ScR hipfire dispersion needs to be increased. The weapon is both highly effective down range and when "panic spammed" from the hip in CQC. Doing so would help with its over-efficiency. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7294	Posted - 2015.02.19 09:05:00 - [131] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Does ScR hipfire dispersion need to be increased? The weapon is both highly effective down range and highly effective when spammed from the hip in CQC. Is it unreasonable to ask a long-rang combatant to switch to sidearm for CQC engagements? Bluntly there shouldn't be this much performance variance between battle rifles. They all perform the same function, they are all the mainstay for racial infantry. The fact that one is clearly superior to another is an idiot ball. I'm not saying universal homogeneity of weapons is a grand idea, but the performance of the rifles shouldn't be so wildly varied that one negates the utility of the others. Sidearms are backups for when you are out of ammo, cant afford to reload or using a weapon that is worthless in close like a forge. Battle rifles should be primarily differentiated by profile and firing mechanics with small tweaks to represent variation in racial design. Not one hits hard at 40m but the other gets +75% range advantage. The wild variances should be represented in the support weapons that form the battle tactics around those rifles. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6772	Posted - 2015.02.19 14:16:00 - [132] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Does ScR hipfire dispersion need to be increased? The weapon is both highly effective down range and highly effective when spammed from the hip in CQC. Is it unreasonable to ask a long-rang combatant to switch to sidearm for CQC engagements? Bluntly there shouldn't be this much performance variance between battle rifles. They all perform the same function, they are all the mainstay for racial infantry. The fact that one is clearly superior to another is an idiot ball. I'm not saying universal homogeneity of weapons is a grand idea, but the performance of the rifles shouldn't be so wildly varied that one negates the utility of the others. Sidearms are backups for when you are out of ammo, cant afford to reload or using a weapon that is worthless in close like a forge. Battle rifles should be primarily differentiated by profile and firing mechanics with small tweaks to represent variation in racial design. Not one hits hard at 40m but the other gets +75% range advantage. The wild variances should be represented in the support weapons that form the battle tactics around those rifles. We've a wide variety of Fine Rifles now, so I must disagree if you're suggesting that all of them should be supremely effective both up close and down range. Having the right tool for the job in hand should matter, and the ScR's competence in CQC should be subject to the same scrutiny as that of the pre-nerf Rail Rifle. Suggestion In a long-range engagement, a Long Rifle will consistently outperform the short-to-mid-range Battle Rifles. These ranged titans, however, are a 'bit too unwieldy to perform reliably at shorter ranges, which is where the more compact Battle Rifles excel. Long Rifles - RR, ScR, LSR, Tac AR Battle Rifles - ARR, aScR, AR, BrAR, BAR, CRs Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7297	Posted - 2015.02.19 15:33:00 - [133] - Quote Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary. And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore. My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams. And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6772	Posted - 2015.02.19 15:45:00 - [134] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary. And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore. My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams. And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor. While the scrambler rifle isn't particularly effective against Heavies, it is obscenely effective against low-HP units and Scouts. And there's nothing "single shot" about an ScR volley. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7297	Posted - 2015.02.19 15:53:00 - [135] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary. And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore. My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams. And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor. While the scrambler rifle isn't particularly effective against Heavies, it is obscenely effective against low-HP units and Scouts. Weapon balance must take into account suit variety. breach ARs are also obscenely effective against low HP suits and scouts. I think this is a bad idea, thoroughly. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6773	Posted - 2015.02.19 16:01:00 - [136] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary. And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore. My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams. And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor. While the scrambler rifle isn't particularly effective against Heavies, it is obscenely effective against low-HP units and Scouts. Weapon balance must take into account suit variety. breach ARs are also obscenely effective against low HP suits and scouts. I think this is a bad idea, thoroughly. Not even close to the same scale as the ScR. Think Burst HMG vs MLT gear; it is that fast. This would be fine if the weapon were more limited in its arena of competence, but it isn't. Example: While in an Assault Ak.0, I got shotgunned twice in the back last night by a Advanced Scout wielding a CRG-3. I twirled around and melted his face with Adv ScR without the slightest effort in aiming. This was an experienced Scout; I've played against him many times, and he had me dead-to-rights. The moment I melted him, I knew that this was wrong-by-design. I am not a KB/M user, so I twirl more slowly than others. I am not a modded-controller user, so I spam this ScR more slowly than others. Even in my sub-optimal hands, I find the "panic spam" feature of this weapon to be straight-up broken. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2398	Posted - 2015.02.19 19:53:00 - [137] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary. And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore. My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams. And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor. While the scrambler rifle isn't particularly effective against Heavies, it is obscenely effective against low-HP units and Scouts. Weapon balance must take into account suit variety. breach ARs are also obscenely effective against low HP suits and scouts. I think this is a bad idea, thoroughly. Not even close to the same scale as the ScR. Think Burst HMG vs MLT gear; it is that fast. This would be fine if the weapon were more limited in its arena of competence, but this is not the case. Example: While running Assault Ak.0 ast night, I got shotgunned twice in the back by a Advanced Scout wielding a CRG-3. I twirled around and melted him in ~0.3 seconds with Adv ScR (no dmg mods) and without the slightest effort in aiming. This was an experienced Scout whom I've played against many times, and he had me dead-to-rights. The moment I melted him, I knew that this was wrong-by-design. I am not a KB/M user, so I twirl more slowly than others; I am not a modded-controller user, so I spam ScR more slowly than others. Even in my sub-optimal, old-man hands, I find the "panic spam" feature of this weapon to be straight-up broken. What happened last night shouldn't happen, and it is happening every day. This is the impetus behind my recommendation. Nice exaggerations. 0.3s Lol. What, did he die in two shots? Unless he was a barebones Minscout and you landed double headshots, he didn't die that fast... Happens every day, huh? Home at Last <3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6775	Posted - 2015.02.19 20:08:00 - [138] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Nice exaggerations. 0.3s Lol. What, did he die in two shots? Unless he was a barebones Minscout and you landed double headshots, he didn't die that fast... Happens every day, huh? I don't make stuff up. Never have. He died in under half a second. If I had to estimate, I'd say I volleyed ~4 shots in roughly one third of a second. He was running Advanced GalScout. I was running Pro 5 Adv ScR. I haven't done the math, but I'm sure it checks out because this is exactly what happened. And, yes, panicked ScR users "spin-and-win" against shotgunners and nova knifers every day. It is nothing short of a free pass, and the fact that one of longest range rifles available is the very best at it only adds insult to injury. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
HOLY PERFECTION OUTCAST MERCS RISE of LEGION 31	Posted - 2015.02.20 06:15:00 - [139] - Quote Combat rifle Buff. YES!!!!!! *I WILL WIN... DESTINY*
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2398	Posted - 2015.02.20 09:49:00 - [140] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Nice exaggerations. 0.3s Lol. What, did he die in two shots? Unless he was a barebones Minscout and you landed double headshots, he didn't die that fast... Happens every day, huh? I don't make stuff up. He died in under half a second. If I had to estimate, I'd say I volleyed ~4 shots in roughly one third of a second. He was running Advanced GalScout. I was running Pro 5 Adv ScR. I haven't done the math, but I'm sure it checks out because this is exactly what happened. And, yes, panicked ScR users "spin-and-win" against SG and NK Scouts every day. I know this because I see it everyday. It is nothing short of a free pass, and the fact that one of longest range rifles available is the very best at it only adds insult to injury. Its impossible to fire 4 shots in 0.3-0.33s. The fire rate is capped at 600, so it's only possible to fire 1 shot every 0.1s. Considering you also, "spam more slowly" as well, I'm going to assume 4 shots probably takes you 0.55s-0.65s, which is a very average 370-435 RoF. A ~0.6s TTK is average. Any other gun would kill just as fast if they land all shots. You were exaggerating, by alot. You're trying to say the ScR kills roughly 2x faster than it actually does. Also, if a Galscout died in 4 shots, he either had absolutely no HP modules and/ar you landed headshots. Everyday occurances though, right? Or he was previously wounded, in which case he shouldn't have engaged you and deserved to die. Home at Last <3

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6801	Posted - 2015.02.20 12:55:00 - [141] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Nice exaggerations. 0.3s Lol. What, did he die in two shots? Unless he was a barebones Minscout and you landed double headshots, he didn't die that fast... Happens every day, huh? I don't make stuff up. He died in under half a second. If I had to estimate, I'd say I volleyed ~4 shots in roughly one third of a second. He was running Advanced GalScout. I was running Pro 5 Adv ScR. I haven't done the math, but I'm sure it checks out because this is exactly what happened. And, yes, panicked ScR users "spin-and-win" against SG and NK Scouts every day. I know this because I see it everyday. It is nothing short of a free pass, and the fact that one of longest range rifles available is the very best at it only adds insult to injury. Its impossible to fire 4 shots in 0.3-0.33s. The fire rate is capped at 600, so it's only possible to fire 1 shot every 0.1s. Considering you also, "spam more slowly" as well, I'm going to assume 4 shots probably takes you 0.55s-0.65s, which is a very average 370-435 RoF. A ~0.6s TTK is average. Any other gun would kill just as fast if they land all shots. You were exaggerating, by alot. You're trying to say the ScR kills roughly 2x faster than it actually does. It appears that my initial report was off by either 0.1 seconds or 1 shot. I'm not using a stopwatch or a modded controller, so there's going to be some estimation when discussing a very small duration. None of this detracts from my point that one of the longest range rifles in the game doubles as a shotgun in CQC. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Also, if a Galscout died in 4 shots, he either had absolutely no HP modules and/ar you landed headshots. Everyday occurances though, right? Or he was previously wounded, in which case he shouldn't have engaged you and deserved to die. I can tell you with absolute certainly that "spin and win" by ScR users is an everyday problem for NK and SG Scouts. This shotgunner hit me twice in the back before I insta-melted him; he didn't deserve to die, he deserved a win. The fact that I flipped the odds in my favor at minimal effort struck me as a free pass. The fact that I can do it again and again strikes me as a Rifle Balance problem. Current aScR - highly effective at CQC; less effective at Range ScR - highly effective at Range; highly effective at CQC Suggestion aScR - highly effective at CQC; less effective at Range (see ARR) ScR - highly effective at Range; less effective at CQC (see RR) If ScR kills/spawn efficiency is too high and aScR utilization rates too low, it is very likely that the above suggestion would move both statistics in the right direction. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Dreis Shadowweaver T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 1959	Posted - 2015.02.20 19:07:00 - [142] - Quote It's really difficult to see which colour represents which rifle in the graph; they look very similar. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 You got gud - DAAAA BEAST
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 1175	Posted - 2015.02.21 11:49:00 - [143] - Quote ScR still OP beyond hell against Caldari suits, hit its em dmg and up its thermal dmg, ie, let it hurt armor a bit more and shields a bit less and RP the reasons cause its insanely far too good at its intended role. Nemo me impune lacessit CCP - Announcing games at the same time as killing the ones you love CCP - No Credibility
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2551	Posted - 2015.02.21 14:49:00 - [144] - Quote The ScR should absolutely without a doubt be just as effective at 5m as it is as 70m. ALL RIFLES should be just as effective as 5m as they are at the edge of their optimals. What should separate CQC from long range rifles is how quickly and how easily they can apply their damage. Nothing more, nothing less. DPS should be what separates them, not some funky mechanic. And all SCR arguments seem to ignore the fact that you can only get out around 1000 damage before seizing up a ScR unless you use AmAssault, assuming no damage mods. That assumes you land all 16 shots on target. A PR can get out 2380 damage with absolutely no overheat, barely any kick, and you can reset the kick by stopping your fire for a split second. That is over double the damage. The ScR is not even one of the top 10 rifles in market purchases. You know why? Because it is a ***** to learn how to use. Yes, it is very very good if your opponent has low health or is shield based and you can land every single shot. Miss some and that damage is lowered drastically, and then you either have to seize up and wait for it to cool down, or switch to your sidearm to finish the job. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6819	Posted - 2015.02.21 15:04:00 - [145] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The ScR should absolutely without a doubt be just as effective at 5m as it is as 70m. ALL RIFLES should be just as effective as 5m as they are at the edge of their optimals. What should separate CQC from long range rifles is how quickly and how easily they can apply their damage. Nothing more, nothing less. DPS should be what separates them, not some funky mechanic. There's no point to a short-range rifle if a long-range rifle is just as good from the hip in short range. I disagree with you completely, but I'll play ball. Is it hard or easy pull a trigger really fast while not aiming? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2551	Posted - 2015.02.21 15:19:00 - [146] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: The ScR should absolutely without a doubt be just as effective at 5m as it is as 70m. ALL RIFLES should be just as effective as 5m as they are at the edge of their optimals. What should separate CQC from long range rifles is how quickly and how easily they can apply their damage. Nothing more, nothing less. DPS should be what separates them, not some funky mechanic. There's no point to a short-range rifle if a long-range rifle is just as good from the hip in short range. I disagree with you completely, but I'll play ball. Is it hard or easy pull a trigger really fast while not aiming? You missed a paragraph. Alena Ventrallis wrote: And all SCR arguments seem to ignore the fact that you can only get out around 1000 damage before seizing up a ScR unless you use AmAssault, assuming no damage mods. That assumes you land all 16 shots on target. A PR can get out 2380 damage with absolutely no overheat, barely any kick, and you can reset the kick by stopping your fire for a split second. That is over double the damage. The ScR is not even one of the top 10 rifles in market purchases. You know why? Because it is a ***** to learn how to use. Yes, it is very very good if your opponent has low health or is shield based and you can land every single shot. Miss some and that damage is lowered drastically, and then you either have to seize up and wait for it to cool down, or switch to your sidearm to finish the job. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6820	Posted - 2015.02.21 15:45:00 - [147] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: You missed a paragraph: And all SCR arguments seem to ignore the fact that you can only get out around 1000 damage before seizing up a ScR unless you use AmAssault, assuming no damage mods. That assumes you land all 16 shots on target. A PR can get out 2380 damage with absolutely no overheat, barely any kick, and you can reset the kick by stopping your fire for a split second. That is over double the damage. The ScR is not even one of the top 10 rifles in market purchases. You know why? Because it is a ***** to learn how to use. Yes, it is very very good if your opponent has low health or is shield based and you can land every single shot. Miss some and that damage is lowered drastically, and then you either have to seize up and wait for it to cool down, or switch to your sidearm to finish the job. The longer range rifles I've used in other shooters were consistently unwieldy when fired from the hip. They still hit hard and could kill in CQC, but not without significant effort on the part of the shooter. The ScR requires no such effort. Orient oneself toward a target and spam. That's it. Heat management is not difficult to learn, nor is switching to a sidearm to finish the job. There are units in the game without 1000HP. Weapon Balance must take into account their existence. CQC Scouts have every right to viability, and to these units ScR spin-and-win represents a serious balance problem. There is no skill, effort or planning involved. Spin. Spam. Win. It is an expressed Design Goal that all playstyles should be viable. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2551	Posted - 2015.02.21 19:17:00 - [148] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The longer range rifles I've used in other shooters were consistently unwieldy when fired from the hip. They still hit hard and could kill in CQC, but not without significant effort on the part of the shooter. The long-range ScR requires no such effort in close quarters. Orient oneself toward a target and spam. That's it. Heat management is not difficult to learn, nor is switching to a sidearm to finish the job. Anecdotal evidence at best, but let's look at this. What kind of ranges were these weapons? Were they measured in 10s of meters, or 100s? 70m for a weapon is not long range at all. Let's exclude real life weaponry, which can easily reach 300m for a similar style rifle on the low end. Even in video games, 70m is a solid mid-range weapon. As such, classifying the ScR as "long range" is fallicious. The Laser rifle even would be considered mid ranged by other shooter's standards. Of course, this is anecdotal as well, so both our arguments are moot. Adipem Nothi wrote: There are units in the game without 1000HP. Weapon Balance must take into account their existence. It is an expressed Design Goal that all playstyles should be viable, and to the best of my knowledge SG/NK Scouts are still considered to be a legitimate playstyle. To these units ScR spin-and-win is a serious balance problem. Spin. Spam. Win. There is no skill, effort or planning involved. By your logic, the PR is massively OP because all suits have less than 2380 hp. SG/NK scouts are a legitimate playstyle, and have been, right alongside this "OP" ScR for months. As a matter of fact, scouts have long been considered more OP than ScR, if forum rants have been evidence of anything. The reason these low HP suits can survive is a reason you seem to be forgetting: human error. If I miss 5 shots with the ScR, thats about 33% of the total damage you can put out before overheat wasted because of inaccuracy. Missing 5 shots with the PR accounts for about 7.5% of the total damage it can do before reload. ScR punishes misses far more than any other rifle. This is part of the balance of the rifle; either you win or you die. This goes to my argument of ease of use. The ScR has extremely high DPS for a very limited window. If you do not down your opponent inside that window, you either have to switch to a sidearm, stop firing and back off to cool down, or seize up. That's how it's balanced. As well, SG/NK scouts shouldn't be getting shot at at all by the ScR. They should be ambushing from the sides or the rear; a head on charge into an enemy's face should lead to their death no matter what weapon their opponent uses, ScR or otherwise. Adipem Nothi wrote: You say, "What should separate CQC from long range rifles is how quickly and how easily they can apply their damage." I'll ask you again, is it hard or easy pull a trigger really fast while not aiming? Do you fins it hard to hold down the trigger while not aiming with the ACR? Should we nerf it too? How about the PR? It is just as easy as the ACR. Perhaps we should nerf it as well? The ScR is powerful, I will not disagree there. But I know, and have proven here, that the power comes at a price, a price you seem to ignore. Saying all the rifles should be just as useful at 0m as their optimals doesn't mean they should all have the same DPS. The reason the RR should be beaten by the PR in CQC only because the PR has a greater DPS than the RR. While the 1.7 RR had lower DPS than the PR, the reason the RR was considered OP was because the difference in DPS was not great enough to justify the much greater range over the PR, but I digress. The reason the SCR needs CQC ability is because the rifle's should be the generalist weapon. They should adequately cover CQC and the edge of their optimals. The ScR does this, and has a punishing overheat to balance it's greater potential DPS. The problem we have is people want the rifles to be only good at one or the other, and that's not how it should be. Whereas the SG/NK are pure CQC, and the SR/LR are strictly mid-long range, the rifles should be the bridge between the two; decent at both, but not as good as the specialized weapons. Now as to your argument that they are too effective against shields, I actually agree with you; I proposed about a month ago a fix for that. But as far as its performance in general, the ScR is fine. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6826	Posted - 2015.02.22 02:37:00 - [149] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The longer range rifles I've used in other shooters were consistently unwieldy when fired from the hip. They still hit hard and could kill in CQC, but not without significant effort on the part of the shooter. The long-range ScR requires no such effort in close quarters. Orient oneself toward a target and spam. Anecdotal evidence at best, but let's look at this. What kind of ranges were these weapons? The weapons I had in mind were the MK14 and FAD from MW3. MK14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdzOtdDoEOc FAD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erf9qrQhYBw#t=94 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2400	Posted - 2015.02.22 09:09:00 - [150] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The longer range rifles I've used in other shooters were consistently unwieldy when fired from the hip. They still hit hard and could kill in CQC, but not without significant effort on the part of the shooter. The long-range ScR requires no such effort in close quarters. Orient oneself toward a target and spam. Anecdotal evidence at best, but let's look at this. What kind of ranges were these weapons? The weapons I had in mind were the FAD and the MK14 from MW3. One rifle is as accurate as a submachine gun from the hip but relatively weak at range. The other rifle is absolutely devastating down range but horribly inaccurate from the hip. These are two ends of the rifle spectrum from one CoD title. As a rule of thumb in all CoD titles, the more effective a weapon is down range, the less effective it is when spammed from the hip. I know that Dust isn't CoD, but that doesn't mean we can't look to CoD and appreciate the things it has done right. Weapon balance is one of those things. We can't look at CoD for this type of thing, actually. Tracking shooters and twitch shooters need to be balanced extremely differently. When it takes 10x the bullets to kill, balance has to be almost completely reworked from the ground up. A better example is the DMR in Halo. Great hipfire despite longer range. Or the Scout Rifles in Destiny. But even those aren't perfect examples. Both of those games have high jumps and very strong aim assist reliance. So the hipfire in Dust shouldn't be that tight, because we don't have to track high jumps here, and the playing field is less level because out aim assistance isnt as strong. The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. Home at Last <3

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6833	Posted - 2015.02.22 15:19:00 - [151] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2400	Posted - 2015.02.22 15:29:00 - [152] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? Not all weapons will have the same efficiency. Just a fact that you will have to deal with. There will always be ones more efficient than others. Period. Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back? Ratatti has decided to do the logical thing and balance efficiency with usage rates. This way, all weapons get roughly the same amount of kills overall. Home at Last <3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6834	Posted - 2015.02.22 16:52:00 - [153] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? So, that's a metric by which to measure balance. You and other players say it is "fine"; this metric disagrees. So do other players. What I find least "fine" is ScR's capacity for spin-and-win against low-tank units. I believe its range profile is more like an RR's than the AR's, and I believe it should perform from the hip more like an RR than an AR. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back? The title of this thread reads "Rifle Balance". You and I can discuss Fine Rifle vs Shotgun performance in the next Shotgun Balance thread. I may seem to be a Shotgunner, but I've also run ever Fine Rifle in the game at Proficiency V. The ScR is currently one of them. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2553	Posted - 2015.02.22 17:27:00 - [154] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? So, that's a metric by which to measure balance. You and other players say it is "fine"; this metric disagrees. So do other players. What I find least "fine" is ScR's capacity for spin-and-win against low-tank units. I believe its range profile is more like an RR's than the AR's, and I believe it should perform from the hip more like an RR than an AR. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back? The title of this thread reads "Rifle Balance". You and I can discuss Fine Rifle vs Shotgun performance in the next Shotgun Balance thread. I Shotgun often, but I've also run every Fine Rifle in the game at Proficiency V. The ScR is currently one of them. Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? Sniper rifle kill/spawn is even higher, this does not mean its unbalanced. If it truly was that OP, why aren't more people using it? Wouldn't it top the market in sales? Yet it does not. Chalk that up to its overheat. The power it has is very high for a very limited window. That's why people don't use it. Because people want something powerful and easy, and the ScR is not easy. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 688	Posted - 2015.02.23 01:48:00 - [155] - Quote Logging in for the first time in almost a week (thanks Sony.) The graph is a bit hard to understand for me Rattati. Actually I don't get it at all even though I have read the whole thread. Can you explain it a bit better? I'd really like to know what I am looking at. Edit note: Easier to differentiate colors would also be cool... Unrelated note, why the hell are random people on the forums trying to hijack a thread about rifle balance to argue or propaganda about HMGs among other stuff? So ridiculous...you know who are you are...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7358	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:15:00 - [156] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Logging in for the first time in almost a week (thanks Sony.) The graph is a bit hard to understand for me Rattati. Actually I don't get it at all even though I have read the whole thread. Can you explain it a bit better? I'd really like to know what I am looking at. Edit note: Easier to differentiate colors would also be cool... Unrelated note, why the hell are random people on the forums trying to hijack a thread about rifle balance to argue or propaganda about HMGs among other stuff? So ridiculous...you know who are you are... HMGs are actually a fairly important factor in how rifles are balanced. The problem is no one agrees on how they need to fit in, others claim they are "fine" even though they negate the utility of gallente suicide range weapons. Honestly I think the numbers are distorted by the presence of the HMG in it's current incarnation. Plus Rattati thinks they're still overperforming (and has said as much in this thread) so I would rather offer constructive advice for fixes rather than waiting for a slapdown similar to the ADS one. I feel the longer range weapons are performing better because the CQC weapons are competing with fatties for dominance. Otherwise your point on the HMG is completely valid. AV
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 690	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:05:00 - [157] - Quote No HMG is not a factor hit how you balance rifles anymore than the sniper or mass driver is a factor for how you balance rifles. Assaults and light rifles are (implied) to be the bread and butter guns of Dust. always have been. So we fix light weapons against each other, then alter the specialty weapons around that. I respect your opinion on how the HMG should be (even though I completely disagree with it for many many reasons) but that is literally for another thread. For example, one that discusses suit effectiveness. For now, I'd like to understand that graph. Understand the data behind how rifles compare to each other. Once we do that everyone can put their heads together and figure out the causes of said data. As it is we are just guessing what it means which makes our respective opinions on cause even further away from the truth. Focusing on giving each rifle overlapping roles and relative flexibility is paramount. That'll make everything else (explosive balance, equipment balance, suit balance, specialty weapon balance, armor/shield dynamic balance, sidearm balance, etc) significantly easier as we will be easily able to see where all of the above compliments, overlaps, supplements, and even supplants the basic bread and butter guns. ie...light rifles. So again Ratatati, can you explain this graph better and PLEASE make the colors significantly easier to differentiate so that we, the players, can provide any sort of constructive feedback and maybe even good ideas?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7360	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:55:00 - [158] - Quote Honestly I tend to agree that if the four rifles were representative of some level of parity it'd be easier to "spiral out" and make the support weapons interlock the pattern. And I'm just as baffled as you are on how to read that graph. All I know is the gallente rifles by and large feel completely outclassed due to impotent ranges and heavy weapon overlap. In my experience a rail rifle or combat rifle will win against a same-tier assault rifle 3/4 times unless the plasma rifle gets the drop on them. Overall in my opinion the combat rifle variants have the best overall feel and ease of use As far as the weapons go overall. It's also (anecdotally I admit) the other weapon that dominates the killfeed overall In my observation. You have similar experiences? The ASCR has been rather subpar ever since about a month after it released when it was hit with the nerf bat rather hard. Using it on a gallente or amarr assault (or God forbid an armor heavy) the overall feel is one of futility. Combining this with the fact that the easy majority of enemy dropsuits tends to be armor tanked means the weapon falls behind due to both rapid overheat and significantly reduced damage from the standard scram. It eats shields at an excellent pace but the damage is too low to do more than **** off a gallente ferro tank. The Rail Rifle is hit or miss for me. It either performs phenomenally well or it's utter trash with no middle ground. When it's the rifle to use it's dominant at long range. I've seen the standard be relatively trashy in CQC but the ARR seems to handle the CQC transition better. Given the abundance of armor suits the rail rifle seems to be more useful especially since most players see no reason to mount it on a caldari or minmatar suit. Overall the scram is either sh*t or it's mounted on a level 3-5 Amarr Assault. The disparity of performance between the scrambler on an Amarr Assault vs. an Amarr Commando is rather saddening to watch. The way the gun is set up there is little to no reason to deploy it on anything but an amarr assault. My two cents. Personally I believe that the firing mechanics and profiles should be what differentiate between the rifles with base stats similar because they are generic battle rifles. The further away we keep the weapons from each other the less they will balance out. Nevermind I believe firmly that until controls and hit detection are fixed we will NEVER see anything resembling true balance and/or parity in DUST. These assessments are too dependent upon "consistent" client performance. But it's been well established that the game performance varies wildlt between different players. AV
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15744	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:17:00 - [159] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2408	Posted - 2015.02.23 14:35:00 - [160] - Quote Atiim wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. Home at Last <3

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6866	Posted - 2015.02.23 15:01:00 - [161] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Atiim wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. I think you're right. dust.thang.dk and stuff514.com might be outdated; they show effective range progressing with tier. Protofits has the same effective range for each tier. Per protofits, the difference in effective range between RR and ScR appears to be 4m. If the RR is in fact 4% better at range than the ScR, the ScR should be 4% better from the hip than the RR. ^ Not really, but you get the idea. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 690	Posted - 2015.02.24 00:25:00 - [162] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Atiim wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. There is a theory bouncing around (that fits in with my experience) about damage falloff curve. Essentially, as a weapon is fired at a target at ranges between optimal and effective the damage reduces. That rate is different for each weapon and follows different damage falloff curves. For example, (made up numbers for easy demonstration purposes only:) Urine Soaked Pillow Launcher 9000: 1000rpm. 10 damage per shot. Optimal - 50m (100% damage) Effective - 60m (80% damage) Loses 1% damage per meter from 51m to 55m. Loses 3% damage per meter from 56m to 60m. ie. 51m = 99% 52m = 98% ... 55m = 95% 56m = 92% 57m = 89% ... 59m = 83% 60m = 80% vs. Earwax Chaingun Omega the Final: 1000rpm. 10 damage per shot. Optimal - 50m (100% damage) Effective - 60m (80% damage) Loses 3% damage per meter from 51m to 55m. Loses 1% damage per meter from 56m to 60m. ie. 51m = 97% 52m = 94% ... 54m = 88% 55m = 85% 56m = 84% ... 59m = 81% 60m = 80% With these two hypothetical weapons (assume same recoil, dispersion) you have the exact same DPS and ranges. However, the Pillow Launcher will outperform the Earwax Chaingun simply by virtue of the damage fall off curve. It appears that many guns in Dust have different curves, and as such some guns seem to perform bettter at ranges outside of their optimal (up to effective) than others. This many be what you are seeing when you experience some weapons performing where you would not expect them to. Add to that, virtually every time someone comments on weapon balance on the forums they only consider optimal only in extremely rare cases consider effective -- much less the difference in weapon effective ranges. Post to be continued in further edit.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15751	Posted - 2015.02.24 00:28:00 - [163] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. I'm aware that weapon ranges were normalized across each tier, however beyond said normalization there hasn't been any changes to SCR or RR range. Meaning that no matter what tier they were normalized against the difference is still 1m, in favor of the SCR. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2442	Posted - 2015.02.28 06:34:00 - [164] - Quote Atiim wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. I'm aware that weapon ranges were normalized across each tier, however beyond said normalization there hasn't been any changes to SCR or RR range, meaning that no matter what tier they were normalized against the difference is still 1m, in favor of the SCR. Effective Ranges are hardly relevant as weapons are less effective in that range than they are in their Optimal. Fair enough. But this raises questions... Why aren't optimal ranges easily available knowledge? Why does Ratatti do all balancing with Effective Ranges? Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2442	Posted - 2015.02.28 06:36:00 - [165] - Quote Ratatti, could you give is a chart(not a graph, numbers please) that shows us the K/S ratios of ALL weapons? I'd dearly like to know exactly how much higher the K/S of the ScR actually is... Home at Last <3
Taskanoss What The Pho 44	Posted - 2015.03.02 02:19:00 - [166] - Quote Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. Derpa hard and derpa fast.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7116	Posted - 2015.03.02 02:57:00 - [167] - Quote Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Taskanoss What The Pho 44	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:34:00 - [168] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH! Derpa hard and derpa fast.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7120	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:39:00 - [169] - Quote Taskanoss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH! Maybe Trello doesn't like decimal points; could be he meant to write 1.5%. If it is only 1.5%, I'm definitely with you on the more menacing colors. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2456	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:18:00 - [170] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH! Maybe Trello doesn't like decimal points; could be he meant to write 1.5%. If it is only 1.5%, I'm with you on the more menacing colors and sounds. If they just got rid of the damn shaking and flashing it would be fine. They don't need to touch the damage. It is in line with the damage/range scale for all assault variant rifles. There should be no damage changes to the weapon. The thing can only be used effectively at ranges similar to the AR because of the shaking. It is only really viable while hipfiring because of the shaking and flashing. Adding damage to it won't to anything but intrude on the role of the AR, and cause more dismay amongst the Gallente, something the HMG is already very guilty of. Unless by "15% damage buff" he means he is changing the entire Laser damage profile to +15/-15... Which I would be a fan of. That would be a definite improvement. It would be better to cut 'Lasers' into two damage types though. Lasers and Scramblers, then make Scramblers +15/-15. In this way, they would mirror Projectiles and Explosives. Home at Last <3

Taskanoss What The Pho 45	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:14:00 - [171] - Quote Excellent point Fizzer! Less flashing/shaking (and preferably a sound change) would make it on par. Derpa hard and derpa fast.
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2579	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:25:00 - [172] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: It would be better to cut 'Lasers' into two damage types though. Lasers and Scramblers, then make Scramblers +15/-15. In this way, they would mirror Projectiles and Explosives. Been saying this for awhile now. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2480	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:57:00 - [173] - Quote An interesting way to buff AScRs, and make them functionally different from ARs. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=195005&find=unread Home at Last <3
Taskanoss What The Pho 47	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:04:00 - [174] - Quote Kudos for taking the time and energy to lay this out in the CCP mathematics format. This is a great suggestion, Fizzer. Derpa hard and derpa fast.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17943	Posted - 2015.03.05 09:53:00 - [175] - Quote Thanks for the discussion, I have taken a couple of notes. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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