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Posted - 2015.02.13 04:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:Saved for later post. Could you edit the graph and make the color differentiation a bit more apparent? It's incredibly hard to read the graph because I'm having to go into MS Paint to make sure I'm looking at the correct respective shade of blue.
I believe each series appears in the same order listed in the legend.
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- Ripley Riley
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Posted - 2015.02.19 00:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thinking ScR hipfire dispersion needs to be increased. The weapon is both highly effective down range and when "panic spammed" from the hip in CQC. Doing so would help with its over-efficiency.
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Posted - 2015.02.19 14:16:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Does ScR hipfire dispersion need to be increased?
The weapon is both highly effective down range and highly effective when spammed from the hip in CQC. Is it unreasonable to ask a long-rang combatant to switch to sidearm for CQC engagements? Bluntly there shouldn't be this much performance variance between battle rifles. They all perform the same function, they are all the mainstay for racial infantry. The fact that one is clearly superior to another is an idiot ball. I'm not saying universal homogeneity of weapons is a grand idea, but the performance of the rifles shouldn't be so wildly varied that one negates the utility of the others. Sidearms are backups for when you are out of ammo, cant afford to reload or using a weapon that is worthless in close like a forge. Battle rifles should be primarily differentiated by profile and firing mechanics with small tweaks to represent variation in racial design. Not one hits hard at 40m but the other gets +75% range advantage. The wild variances should be represented in the support weapons that form the battle tactics around those rifles.
We've a wide variety of Fine Rifles now, so I must disagree if you're suggesting that all of them should be supremely effective both up close and down range. Having the right tool for the job in hand should matter, and the ScR's competence in CQC should be subject to the same scrutiny as that of the pre-nerf Rail Rifle.
Suggestion In a long-range engagement, a Long Rifle will consistently outperform the short-to-mid-range Battle Rifles. These ranged titans, however, are a 'bit too unwieldy to perform reliably at shorter ranges, which is where the more compact Battle Rifles excel.
Long Rifles - RR, ScR, LSR, Tac AR Battle Rifles - ARR, aScR, AR, BrAR, BAR, CRs
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Posted - 2015.02.19 15:45:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote:Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary.
And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore.
My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams.
And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor.
While the scrambler rifle isn't particularly effective against Heavies, it is obscenely effective against low-HP units and Scouts. And there's nothing "single shot" about an ScR volley.
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Posted - 2015.02.19 16:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Forcing a single shot weapon to perform poorly in close is unnecessary.
And if we do it because modded Control sh*tlords then we screw legit players hardcore.
My two cents, since I'm not really having a problem with close up scrams.
And I'm gravitating to shield suits more and more. Just having more fun with them than I am armor. While the scrambler rifle isn't particularly effective against Heavies, it is obscenely effective against low-HP units and Scouts. Weapon balance must take into account suit variety. breach ARs are also obscenely effective against low HP suits and scouts. I think this is a bad idea, thoroughly.
Not even close to the same scale as the ScR. Think Burst HMG vs MLT gear; it is that fast. This would be fine if the weapon were more limited in its arena of competence, but it isn't.
Example:
While in an Assault Ak.0, I got shotgunned twice in the back last night by a Advanced Scout wielding a CRG-3. I twirled around and melted his face with Adv ScR without the slightest effort in aiming. This was an experienced Scout; I've played against him many times, and he had me dead-to-rights. The moment I melted him, I knew that this was wrong-by-design. I am not a KB/M user, so I twirl more slowly than others. I am not a modded-controller user, so I spam this ScR more slowly than others. Even in my sub-optimal hands, I find the "panic spam" feature of this weapon to be straight-up broken.
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote: Nice exaggerations. 0.3s Lol. What, did he die in two shots? Unless he was a barebones Minscout and you landed double headshots, he didn't die that fast... Happens every day, huh?
I don't make stuff up. Never have.
He died in under half a second. If I had to estimate, I'd say I volleyed ~4 shots in roughly one third of a second. He was running Advanced GalScout. I was running Pro 5 Adv ScR. I haven't done the math, but I'm sure it checks out because this is exactly what happened.
And, yes, panicked ScR users "spin-and-win" against shotgunners and nova knifers every day. It is nothing short of a free pass, and the fact that one of longest range rifles available is the very best at it only adds insult to injury.
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Posted - 2015.02.20 12:55:00 -
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Fizzer XCIV wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: Nice exaggerations. 0.3s Lol. What, did he die in two shots? Unless he was a barebones Minscout and you landed double headshots, he didn't die that fast... Happens every day, huh?
I don't make stuff up. He died in under half a second. If I had to estimate, I'd say I volleyed ~4 shots in roughly one third of a second. He was running Advanced GalScout. I was running Pro 5 Adv ScR. I haven't done the math, but I'm sure it checks out because this is exactly what happened. And, yes, panicked ScR users "spin-and-win" against SG and NK Scouts every day. I know this because I see it everyday. It is nothing short of a free pass, and the fact that one of longest range rifles available is the very best at it only adds insult to injury. Its impossible to fire 4 shots in 0.3-0.33s. The fire rate is capped at 600, so it's only possible to fire 1 shot every 0.1s. Considering you also, "spam more slowly" as well, I'm going to assume 4 shots probably takes you 0.55s-0.65s, which is a very average 370-435 RoF. A ~0.6s TTK is average. Any other gun would kill just as fast if they land all shots. You were exaggerating, by alot. You're trying to say the ScR kills roughly 2x faster than it actually does.
It appears that my initial report was off by either 0.1 seconds or 1 shot. I'm not using a stopwatch or a modded controller, so there's going to be some estimation when discussing a very small duration. None of this detracts from my point that one of the longest range rifles in the game doubles as a shotgun in CQC.
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Also, if a Galscout died in 4 shots, he either had absolutely no HP modules and/ar you landed headshots. Everyday occurances though, right? Or he was previously wounded, in which case he shouldn't have engaged you and deserved to die. I can tell you with absolute certainly that "spin and win" by ScR users is an everyday problem for NK and SG Scouts. This shotgunner hit me twice in the back before I insta-melted him; he didn't deserve to die, he deserved a win. The fact that I flipped the odds in my favor at minimal effort struck me as a free pass. The fact that I can do it again and again strikes me as a Rifle Balance problem.
Current aScR - highly effective at CQC; less effective at Range ScR - highly effective at Range; highly effective at CQC
Suggestion aScR - highly effective at CQC; less effective at Range (see ARR) ScR - highly effective at Range; less effective at CQC (see RR)
If ScR kills/spawn efficiency is too high and aScR utilization rates too low, it is very likely that the above suggestion would move both statistics in the right direction.
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6819
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Posted - 2015.02.21 15:04:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:The ScR should absolutely without a doubt be just as effective at 5m as it is as 70m. ALL RIFLES should be just as effective as 5m as they are at the edge of their optimals. What should separate CQC from long range rifles is how quickly and how easily they can apply their damage. Nothing more, nothing less. DPS should be what separates them, not some funky mechanic. There's no point to a short-range rifle if a long-range rifle is just as good from the hip in short range. I disagree with you completely, but I'll play ball. Is it hard or easy pull a trigger really fast while not aiming?
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Posted - 2015.02.21 15:45:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:You missed a paragraph:
And all SCR arguments seem to ignore the fact that you can only get out around 1000 damage before seizing up a ScR unless you use AmAssault, assuming no damage mods. That assumes you land all 16 shots on target. A PR can get out 2380 damage with absolutely no overheat, barely any kick, and you can reset the kick by stopping your fire for a split second. That is over double the damage. The ScR is not even one of the top 10 rifles in market purchases. You know why? Because it is a ***** to learn how to use. Yes, it is very very good if your opponent has low health or is shield based and you can land every single shot. Miss some and that damage is lowered drastically, and then you either have to seize up and wait for it to cool down, or switch to your sidearm to finish the job.
The longer range rifles I've used in other shooters were consistently unwieldy when fired from the hip. They still hit hard and could kill in CQC, but not without significant effort on the part of the shooter. The ScR requires no such effort. Orient oneself toward a target and spam. That's it. Heat management is not difficult to learn, nor is switching to a sidearm to finish the job.
There are units in the game without 1000HP. Weapon Balance must take into account their existence. CQC Scouts have every right to viability, and to these units ScR spin-and-win represents a serious balance problem. There is no skill, effort or planning involved. Spin. Spam. Win. It is an expressed Design Goal that all playstyles should be viable.
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Posted - 2015.02.22 02:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: The longer range rifles I've used in other shooters were consistently unwieldy when fired from the hip. They still hit hard and could kill in CQC, but not without significant effort on the part of the shooter. The long-range ScR requires no such effort in close quarters. Orient oneself toward a target and spam.
Anecdotal evidence at best, but let's look at this. What kind of ranges were these weapons?
The weapons I had in mind were the MK14 and FAD from MW3.
MK14: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdzOtdDoEOc FAD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erf9qrQhYBw#t=94
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Posted - 2015.02.22 15:19:00 -
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Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is.
I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle.
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Posted - 2015.02.22 16:52:00 -
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Fizzer XCIV wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is.
I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? So, that's a metric by which to measure balance. You and other players say it is "fine"; this metric disagrees. So do other players. What I find least "fine" is ScR's capacity for spin-and-win against low-tank units. I believe its range profile is more like an RR's than the AR's, and I believe it should perform from the hip more like an RR than an AR.
Fizzer XCIV wrote: Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back?
The title of this thread reads "Rifle Balance". You and I can discuss Fine Rifle vs Shotgun performance in the next Shotgun Balance thread. I may seem to be a Shotgunner, but I've also run ever Fine Rifle in the game at Proficiency V. The ScR is currently one of them.
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6866
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Posted - 2015.02.23 15:01:00 -
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Fizzer XCIV wrote:Atiim wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out.
I think you're right. dust.thang.dk and stuff514.com might be outdated; they show effective range progressing with tier. Protofits has the same effective range for each tier. Per protofits, the difference in effective range between RR and ScR appears to be 4m.
If the RR is in fact 4% better at range than the ScR, the ScR should be 4% better from the hip than the RR.
^ Not really, but you get the idea.
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Posted - 2015.03.02 02:57:00 -
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Taskanoss wrote:Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend.
https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff
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Posted - 2015.03.02 03:39:00 -
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Taskanoss wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Taskanoss wrote:Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH!
Maybe Trello doesn't like decimal points; could be he meant to write 1.5%. If it is only 1.5%, I'm definitely with you on the more menacing colors.
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- Ripley Riley
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