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Sticky:[Data Insights] Rifle Balance Update

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6833	Posted - 2015.02.22 15:19:00 - [151] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2400	Posted - 2015.02.22 15:29:00 - [152] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? Not all weapons will have the same efficiency. Just a fact that you will have to deal with. There will always be ones more efficient than others. Period. Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back? Ratatti has decided to do the logical thing and balance efficiency with usage rates. This way, all weapons get roughly the same amount of kills overall. Home at Last <3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6834	Posted - 2015.02.22 16:52:00 - [153] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? So, that's a metric by which to measure balance. You and other players say it is "fine"; this metric disagrees. So do other players. What I find least "fine" is ScR's capacity for spin-and-win against low-tank units. I believe its range profile is more like an RR's than the AR's, and I believe it should perform from the hip more like an RR than an AR. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back? The title of this thread reads "Rifle Balance". You and I can discuss Fine Rifle vs Shotgun performance in the next Shotgun Balance thread. I may seem to be a Shotgunner, but I've also run ever Fine Rifle in the game at Proficiency V. The ScR is currently one of them. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2553	Posted - 2015.02.22 17:27:00 - [154] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: The ScR hipfire is balanced as it is for the type of game Dust is. I was under the impression that the ScR's efficiency (kills/spawn) was higher than any other Fine Rifle. Yeah. So? So, that's a metric by which to measure balance. You and other players say it is "fine"; this metric disagrees. So do other players. What I find least "fine" is ScR's capacity for spin-and-win against low-tank units. I believe its range profile is more like an RR's than the AR's, and I believe it should perform from the hip more like an RR than an AR. Fizzer XCIV wrote: Although, you seem to be a Shotgunner, and I'd guess the Shotgun has a higher efficiency than any of the rifles. So... three fingers pointing back? The title of this thread reads "Rifle Balance". You and I can discuss Fine Rifle vs Shotgun performance in the next Shotgun Balance thread. I Shotgun often, but I've also run every Fine Rifle in the game at Proficiency V. The ScR is currently one of them. Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? Sniper rifle kill/spawn is even higher, this does not mean its unbalanced. If it truly was that OP, why aren't more people using it? Wouldn't it top the market in sales? Yet it does not. Chalk that up to its overheat. The power it has is very high for a very limited window. That's why people don't use it. Because people want something powerful and easy, and the ScR is not easy. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 688	Posted - 2015.02.23 01:48:00 - [155] - Quote Logging in for the first time in almost a week (thanks Sony.) The graph is a bit hard to understand for me Rattati. Actually I don't get it at all even though I have read the whole thread. Can you explain it a bit better? I'd really like to know what I am looking at. Edit note: Easier to differentiate colors would also be cool... Unrelated note, why the hell are random people on the forums trying to hijack a thread about rifle balance to argue or propaganda about HMGs among other stuff? So ridiculous...you know who are you are...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7358	Posted - 2015.02.23 11:15:00 - [156] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Logging in for the first time in almost a week (thanks Sony.) The graph is a bit hard to understand for me Rattati. Actually I don't get it at all even though I have read the whole thread. Can you explain it a bit better? I'd really like to know what I am looking at. Edit note: Easier to differentiate colors would also be cool... Unrelated note, why the hell are random people on the forums trying to hijack a thread about rifle balance to argue or propaganda about HMGs among other stuff? So ridiculous...you know who are you are... HMGs are actually a fairly important factor in how rifles are balanced. The problem is no one agrees on how they need to fit in, others claim they are "fine" even though they negate the utility of gallente suicide range weapons. Honestly I think the numbers are distorted by the presence of the HMG in it's current incarnation. Plus Rattati thinks they're still overperforming (and has said as much in this thread) so I would rather offer constructive advice for fixes rather than waiting for a slapdown similar to the ADS one. I feel the longer range weapons are performing better because the CQC weapons are competing with fatties for dominance. Otherwise your point on the HMG is completely valid. AV
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 690	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:05:00 - [157] - Quote No HMG is not a factor hit how you balance rifles anymore than the sniper or mass driver is a factor for how you balance rifles. Assaults and light rifles are (implied) to be the bread and butter guns of Dust. always have been. So we fix light weapons against each other, then alter the specialty weapons around that. I respect your opinion on how the HMG should be (even though I completely disagree with it for many many reasons) but that is literally for another thread. For example, one that discusses suit effectiveness. For now, I'd like to understand that graph. Understand the data behind how rifles compare to each other. Once we do that everyone can put their heads together and figure out the causes of said data. As it is we are just guessing what it means which makes our respective opinions on cause even further away from the truth. Focusing on giving each rifle overlapping roles and relative flexibility is paramount. That'll make everything else (explosive balance, equipment balance, suit balance, specialty weapon balance, armor/shield dynamic balance, sidearm balance, etc) significantly easier as we will be easily able to see where all of the above compliments, overlaps, supplements, and even supplants the basic bread and butter guns. ie...light rifles. So again Ratatati, can you explain this graph better and PLEASE make the colors significantly easier to differentiate so that we, the players, can provide any sort of constructive feedback and maybe even good ideas?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7360	Posted - 2015.02.23 12:55:00 - [158] - Quote Honestly I tend to agree that if the four rifles were representative of some level of parity it'd be easier to "spiral out" and make the support weapons interlock the pattern. And I'm just as baffled as you are on how to read that graph. All I know is the gallente rifles by and large feel completely outclassed due to impotent ranges and heavy weapon overlap. In my experience a rail rifle or combat rifle will win against a same-tier assault rifle 3/4 times unless the plasma rifle gets the drop on them. Overall in my opinion the combat rifle variants have the best overall feel and ease of use As far as the weapons go overall. It's also (anecdotally I admit) the other weapon that dominates the killfeed overall In my observation. You have similar experiences? The ASCR has been rather subpar ever since about a month after it released when it was hit with the nerf bat rather hard. Using it on a gallente or amarr assault (or God forbid an armor heavy) the overall feel is one of futility. Combining this with the fact that the easy majority of enemy dropsuits tends to be armor tanked means the weapon falls behind due to both rapid overheat and significantly reduced damage from the standard scram. It eats shields at an excellent pace but the damage is too low to do more than **** off a gallente ferro tank. The Rail Rifle is hit or miss for me. It either performs phenomenally well or it's utter trash with no middle ground. When it's the rifle to use it's dominant at long range. I've seen the standard be relatively trashy in CQC but the ARR seems to handle the CQC transition better. Given the abundance of armor suits the rail rifle seems to be more useful especially since most players see no reason to mount it on a caldari or minmatar suit. Overall the scram is either sh*t or it's mounted on a level 3-5 Amarr Assault. The disparity of performance between the scrambler on an Amarr Assault vs. an Amarr Commando is rather saddening to watch. The way the gun is set up there is little to no reason to deploy it on anything but an amarr assault. My two cents. Personally I believe that the firing mechanics and profiles should be what differentiate between the rifles with base stats similar because they are generic battle rifles. The further away we keep the weapons from each other the less they will balance out. Nevermind I believe firmly that until controls and hit detection are fixed we will NEVER see anything resembling true balance and/or parity in DUST. These assessments are too dependent upon "consistent" client performance. But it's been well established that the game performance varies wildlt between different players. AV
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15744	Posted - 2015.02.23 13:17:00 - [159] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2408	Posted - 2015.02.23 14:35:00 - [160] - Quote Atiim wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. Home at Last <3

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6866	Posted - 2015.02.23 15:01:00 - [161] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Atiim wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. I think you're right. dust.thang.dk and stuff514.com might be outdated; they show effective range progressing with tier. Protofits has the same effective range for each tier. Per protofits, the difference in effective range between RR and ScR appears to be 4m. If the RR is in fact 4% better at range than the ScR, the ScR should be 4% better from the hip than the RR. ^ Not really, but you get the idea. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 690	Posted - 2015.02.24 00:25:00 - [162] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Atiim wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Edit: Is there any truth to this thread? Does the ScR really out-range the RR? According to these tests performed in-game, the range is about the same (SCR is higher by 1m). That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. There is a theory bouncing around (that fits in with my experience) about damage falloff curve. Essentially, as a weapon is fired at a target at ranges between optimal and effective the damage reduces. That rate is different for each weapon and follows different damage falloff curves. For example, (made up numbers for easy demonstration purposes only:) Urine Soaked Pillow Launcher 9000: 1000rpm. 10 damage per shot. Optimal - 50m (100% damage) Effective - 60m (80% damage) Loses 1% damage per meter from 51m to 55m. Loses 3% damage per meter from 56m to 60m. ie. 51m = 99% 52m = 98% ... 55m = 95% 56m = 92% 57m = 89% ... 59m = 83% 60m = 80% vs. Earwax Chaingun Omega the Final: 1000rpm. 10 damage per shot. Optimal - 50m (100% damage) Effective - 60m (80% damage) Loses 3% damage per meter from 51m to 55m. Loses 1% damage per meter from 56m to 60m. ie. 51m = 97% 52m = 94% ... 54m = 88% 55m = 85% 56m = 84% ... 59m = 81% 60m = 80% With these two hypothetical weapons (assume same recoil, dispersion) you have the exact same DPS and ranges. However, the Pillow Launcher will outperform the Earwax Chaingun simply by virtue of the damage fall off curve. It appears that many guns in Dust have different curves, and as such some guns seem to perform bettter at ranges outside of their optimal (up to effective) than others. This many be what you are seeing when you experience some weapons performing where you would not expect them to. Add to that, virtually every time someone comments on weapon balance on the forums they only consider optimal only in extremely rare cases consider effective -- much less the difference in weapon effective ranges. Post to be continued in further edit.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 15751	Posted - 2015.02.24 00:28:00 - [163] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. I'm aware that weapon ranges were normalized across each tier, however beyond said normalization there hasn't been any changes to SCR or RR range. Meaning that no matter what tier they were normalized against the difference is still 1m, in favor of the SCR. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2442	Posted - 2015.02.28 06:34:00 - [164] - Quote Atiim wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: That document is painfully outdated. Weapon ranges don't increase with tier anymore like that. The SDE says the RR has an effective of 100m and the ScR has an effective of 96m. No hard info on the Optimal, but anecdotally I can say the RR feels like it reaches further out. I'm aware that weapon ranges were normalized across each tier, however beyond said normalization there hasn't been any changes to SCR or RR range, meaning that no matter what tier they were normalized against the difference is still 1m, in favor of the SCR. Effective Ranges are hardly relevant as weapons are less effective in that range than they are in their Optimal. Fair enough. But this raises questions... Why aren't optimal ranges easily available knowledge? Why does Ratatti do all balancing with Effective Ranges? Home at Last <3
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2442	Posted - 2015.02.28 06:36:00 - [165] - Quote Ratatti, could you give is a chart(not a graph, numbers please) that shows us the K/S ratios of ALL weapons? I'd dearly like to know exactly how much higher the K/S of the ScR actually is... Home at Last <3
Taskanoss What The Pho 44	Posted - 2015.03.02 02:19:00 - [166] - Quote Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. Derpa hard and derpa fast.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7116	Posted - 2015.03.02 02:57:00 - [167] - Quote Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Taskanoss What The Pho 44	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:34:00 - [168] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH! Derpa hard and derpa fast.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7120	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:39:00 - [169] - Quote Taskanoss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH! Maybe Trello doesn't like decimal points; could be he meant to write 1.5%. If it is only 1.5%, I'm definitely with you on the more menacing colors. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2456	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:18:00 - [170] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Taskanoss wrote: Tell me if you agree or disagree. The reason the AScr has such low usage is due to the fact it feels and sounds weak. The sound of the shots being fired seem more like a fast backbeat to a song rather than an usherer of swift Amarrian manufactured death. I believe the AScr shot animation needs a touch of red or something more menacing than bland yellow. The weapon performs amazingly and the only buff I would suggest would be a slight range extend. https://trello.com/c/KL0S9t5N/503-ascr-15-dmg-buff 15%?!?!?!?! That is crazy HIGH! Maybe Trello doesn't like decimal points; could be he meant to write 1.5%. If it is only 1.5%, I'm with you on the more menacing colors and sounds. If they just got rid of the damn shaking and flashing it would be fine. They don't need to touch the damage. It is in line with the damage/range scale for all assault variant rifles. There should be no damage changes to the weapon. The thing can only be used effectively at ranges similar to the AR because of the shaking. It is only really viable while hipfiring because of the shaking and flashing. Adding damage to it won't to anything but intrude on the role of the AR, and cause more dismay amongst the Gallente, something the HMG is already very guilty of. Unless by "15% damage buff" he means he is changing the entire Laser damage profile to +15/-15... Which I would be a fan of. That would be a definite improvement. It would be better to cut 'Lasers' into two damage types though. Lasers and Scramblers, then make Scramblers +15/-15. In this way, they would mirror Projectiles and Explosives. Home at Last <3

Taskanoss What The Pho 45	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:14:00 - [171] - Quote Excellent point Fizzer! Less flashing/shaking (and preferably a sound change) would make it on par. Derpa hard and derpa fast.
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2579	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:25:00 - [172] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: It would be better to cut 'Lasers' into two damage types though. Lasers and Scramblers, then make Scramblers +15/-15. In this way, they would mirror Projectiles and Explosives. Been saying this for awhile now. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2480	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:57:00 - [173] - Quote An interesting way to buff AScRs, and make them functionally different from ARs. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=195005&find=unread Home at Last <3
Taskanoss What The Pho 47	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:04:00 - [174] - Quote Kudos for taking the time and energy to lay this out in the CCP mathematics format. This is a great suggestion, Fizzer. Derpa hard and derpa fast.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17943	Posted - 2015.03.05 09:53:00 - [175] - Quote Thanks for the discussion, I have taken a couple of notes. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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