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Sticky:[Data Insights] Rifle Balance Update

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17318	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:03:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Freccia di Lybra Simple Trading Union 504	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:15:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] May be interesting to see the STD / PRO sheets as well Ei fu, xxwhitedevilxx former Co-CEO Maphia Clan Corporation / Unit Unicorn
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1756	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:16:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] Let me zoom on picture!! Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 198	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:18:00 - [4] - Quote It is interesting to be sure...any chance we can get some other chart formats to compare the data as well? This one looks cool, but the lack of axis label, and the fact that it's the size of the particular section that matters makes it a bit difficult to understand at first... As for comments on it...the AScR may be under-performing overall, but against the right targets (shield suits) it absolutely wrecks...so I would posit that the problem with it has more to do with the heavy emphasis on armor in the current meta (at least from my observations, shield tanking has shown up a bit more...but I don't have the specific data you might)...and buffing the AScR won't do much to encourage shield tankers to actually fit their tank. I don't use the Plasma Rifle weaponry, so I'm not really set up to comment one them (in this case the TAR and BAR), but I'd be cautious about how you handle them...to make sure they don't outshine the weapons they're supposed to be mimicking (CBR and ScR respectively) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Freccia di Lybra Simple Trading Union 505	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:19:00 - [5] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] Let me zoom on picture!! http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png Ei fu, xxwhitedevilxx former Co-CEO Maphia Clan Corporation / Unit Unicorn
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2865	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:19:00 - [6] - Quote Saved for later post. Could you edit the graph and make the color differentiation a bit more apparent? It's incredibly hard to read the graph because I'm having to go into MS Paint to make sure I'm looking at the correct respective shade of blue. Also, could we get some values on the graph? Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1756	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:21:00 - [7] - Quote The Rail Rifle to me seems fine, I rarely ever get killed by it. The kick is horrendous. As for the Assault Rifle and ScR. It's all about the Armor Meta. Everybody armor tanks so people would rather use weapons made for killing armor than shield.. P.S. The ScR is ridiculous against shields. 700 shield Caldari Assault can lose all it's shields in under 2 seconds to a standard ScR. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6652	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:23:00 - [8] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Saved for later post. Could you edit the graph and make the color differentiation a bit more apparent? It's incredibly hard to read the graph because I'm having to go into MS Paint to make sure I'm looking at the correct respective shade of blue. I believe each series appears in the same order listed in the legend. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Freccia di Lybra Simple Trading Union 505	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:25:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, with all that's happening it's sometimes hard to find time to deep dives, so I am going to try and explain less, and just show some "random" data and give shorter updates/insights. Here you can see the Kills by Advanced Rifles in Public Contracts. I believe we can say that our methodology is working well. We have managed to make rifles that were overwhelming, just about right, and we are managing to improve the ones that were underwhelming. Please discuss. The obvious lesson is that ASCR, TAR and Burst AR are not good enough, and those three also have the lowest Kills/Spawn ratio (similar to KDR ratio), so low usage and low efficiency indicates "not good enough" That's all for now. Hope to do more. [img]http://puu.sh/fQDBl/54dcc3b129.png[/img] I think it may be also interesting to show and consider the PC datas about suits and weapons. It may potentially tell more than pubs: in fact in pubs I always use the weapon I "like" not necessarily the one I consider the strongest in the whole game, same goes for the suits. Ei fu, xxwhitedevilxx former Co-CEO Maphia Clan Corporation / Unit Unicorn
The Eristic Dust 90210 798	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:29:00 - [10] - Quote Freccia di Lybra wrote: May be interesting to see the STD / PRO sheets as well Burst and Tac will be serious underperformers on the STD chart. ;^) Their absence might also contribute to how underused they are at Advanced, as non-vets won't know what they're about and choose to skill up CR/RR instead. AScR, otoh, is just kinda balls most of the time, even though it shouldn't be. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2171	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:41:00 - [11] - Quote Ambush still accounting for a lot of rr kills I think. I don't see it too often in objective based game modes, unless its a Dom where heavies aren't that great. Burst rifles too bursty (less RoF higher dmg bursts). Tar maybe slightly higher damage per shot & less RoF? Scope is a big problem for both tar & bar (takes up too much screen space). AScR has strange hit detection, might be better if made more similar to BrAR. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5316	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:43:00 - [12] - Quote Make one for the side arms (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
JUDASisMYhomeboy xCosmic Voidx 405	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:48:00 - [13] - Quote Tread very lightly with the ascr. Its really not a bad gun, its just not god mode. All it needs is the recoil and/or muzzle flash reduced. I find alot of the time i kind of lose the target with the flash. The recoil is ok once you get used to it so do something about the muzzle flash first. The ascr situation is starting to feel a lot like the pre buff breach ar. Honestly though, my amarr commando would love a ascr dmg buff "In a world gone mad,only a lunatic is truly insane" Homer J Simpson
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9559	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:49:00 - [14] - Quote Why are all the colors around the same tones! *~New Eden's #1 Gallente Arm's Dealer*
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge 2892	Posted - 2015.02.13 04:52:00 - [15] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Why are all the colors around the same tones! Excellent question! What about the colorblind people? Think of them! *Quoth the Raven "Nevermore!"* - Edgar Allan Poe
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2171	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:10:00 - [16] - Quote sir RAVEN WING wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Why are all the colors around the same tones! Excellent question! What about the colorblind people? Think of them! As a shirt of mine once said "Fck the colourblind". Nah just kidding, color differentiation would make things easier to read. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.* I have a few alts.
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 258	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:12:00 - [17] - Quote I have used the Tac ar and it lacks in range pretty heavy as well the burst ar the range is always going to be a decisive factor for these weapons, reason why many ppl don't use them. What I want to recommend is that they generally need a damage increase, because it is way risky trying to get in range, so to not have problems with other weapons ranges I would increase the damage, at least if u get the right range u deserve the damage to actually get the kill. That's something natural in this kind of things. Ppl will use the weapons with greater ranges, instead the ones that have a higher risk to use. (that doesn't apply to melee and knifing. Lol trolling reasons) well that is my thought With the ascr not pretty sure what it needs. Maybe some extra damage also because it is as bad as an smg. Or increase the clip a little bit so it will have a better dmg in total. Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 366	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:33:00 - [18] - Quote Ratatti, you've previously said you have no desire to run tanks/vehicles, no explanation given I think you should consider that opinion when looking at the underperforming weapons. Sometimes they're not used because they are UP, they are just less exciting and only will get used if they are OP (looking at you breach AR). Also, I'd love to see the LR stats ADS Ramming Revenge! Should Have Stayed Inside (the Tank)
alias lycan Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 36	Posted - 2015.02.13 05:52:00 - [19] - Quote Don't assume lack of popularity means a weapon is UP. The only gun that I see that might need adjustments is the ASCR. I don't really have enough experience with TAC ARs but I've been running burst ARs almost exclusively and I refuse to believe they're UP.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3207	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:04:00 - [20] - Quote MOAR DATA PLZ!

Travis Stanush Y.A.M.A.H 382	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:10:00 - [21] - Quote alias lycan wrote: Don't assume lack of popularity means a weapon is UP. The only gun that I see that might need adjustments is the ASCR. I don't really have enough experience with TAC ARs but I've been running burst ARs almost exclusively and I refuse to believe they're UP. I second this particular opinion. As of now I would say Tac AR's are in a good spot overall and the burst well I will just say that they work surprisingly well. No I will not show you where they touched me!!!
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game RUST415 275	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:26:00 - [22] - Quote Is this graph related to "Fifty shades of Blue" or something? Rise? That's what they used to call me. Sequal Rise. That was my name. Now I come Back to you, at the turn of the tide.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12053	Posted - 2015.02.13 06:34:00 - [23] - Quote Reduce TAR kick. The kick is not much of a big deal in close range, but at longer ranges it makes it impossible to fully make use of the fire rate without it flying all over the place. Give the ASCR a mechanic that makes the heat buildup justified. The regular SCR has the charge shot which is balanced by heat buildup, the laser rifle has has a damage buildup mechanic that has to be balanced by the heat buildup. On the ASCR though, doesn't feel justified, so I recommend giving it a "damage buildup per based on continuous fire duration" feature like the laser rifle... or at the very least, just make it less jittery, and reduce dispersion. As for the burst AR, I don't really know what to attribute the lack of use to, but seems pretty solid to me. Perhaps people just haven't found out how good it is? Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2386	Posted - 2015.02.13 07:06:00 - [24] - Quote For the love of all that is holy, use a color other than blue. I can't make heads or tails of that graph. Graphmaking 101, man. Home at Last <3
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 22145	Posted - 2015.02.13 07:07:00 - [25] - Quote I would be very hesitant to suggest buffing the TAR. I'm not sure why the data doesn't perfectly reflect it, but I am finding it an exceedingly powerful weapon, to the point where I have sometimes taken heavies head on and won. If you do buff it, please be cautious. moobius 2013 never forget
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1008	Posted - 2015.02.13 07:54:00 - [26] - Quote The only weapon that needs a good buff is the Assault Scrambler Rifle. While the Assault Combat Rifle needs a considerable nerf to the point where it out classes the Assault Rifle in its own turf. And please. Change the colors. I got so confused at looking at the charts. Changes to Damage mods!
Grimmiers 796	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:03:00 - [27] - Quote More range will always be safer than having most of your fights sandwiched between scouts and heavies, so I'm not surprised by the chart. The Assault bonuses for the minmatar and the design of the assault combat rifle really overshadow anything the Plasma ar can do along with more heavies and armor tanked suits on the field. It also has a bit more range. The scrambler rifle on the other hand is almost exclusively used by amarr assaults which completely outclasses the assault scrambler in close and long range. You can switch from alpha to dps and then switch to a sidearm if the enemy isn't already melted. The assault rifle is always only slightly more powerful than similar rifles when in close range and at time useless when it comes to long range. I accept that I'm using a close range weapons, so it doesn't bother me when I can't fight back at longer ranges, but there are so much better close ranged weapons that aren't necessarily rifles like a shotgun, hmg, smg, etc. The increase in clips size should be replaced imo. The rail rifle just seems to have it all with the only downside being a charge up and some wacky dispersion which probably helps more than it harms at close range where you would need to keep the trigger held. The clip size also seems a bit large for a long range weapon. Overall I'd say the balance is almost there with some discrepancies in assault bonuses and some toe stepping for intended uses.
cray cray FISH Caught Me With My Pants Down 34	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:14:00 - [28] - Quote Where are these battles where people are getting kills with standard RR and Assault rifles? Since the recoil of the RR i have found the assault RR much more practical and the TAC is the best weapon in the game in the right hands... Although we are all in agreement, the ASCR is UP, though it is the assist king. Catchphrase: "I hate team games, I'm shellfish" Team BD's Resident Fish
Jathniel Ahrendee Mercenaries 1473	Posted - 2015.02.13 08:33:00 - [29] - Quote You really really do NOT need to buff that TAR. It's literally my primary weapon. On it's own, it's already extremely effective. With triple-damage mods, it's essentially as powerful as the old-school scrambler pistol..... except with range. It's not under-performing. My guess is most people just don't like the kick. You CANNOT. I repeat. CANNOT safely make that gun ANY stronger damage wise. You can PROBABLY get away with a 25m range buff, without breaking it. Or a 10% kick reduction. But....... Do NOT increase the mag size. Do NOT increase the damage. Do NOT increase the rate of fire. Do NOT improve hip fire accuracy. The TAR is borderline to the lethality it had in 1.0, and that will break it. Retired
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4024	Posted - 2015.02.13 09:11:00 - [30] - Quote I use adv Ascr on my gal logi, i don't think it's underperforming, maybe some other weapons are overperforming, that's why people keep using only them. Maybe people just use what they are confortable with, i've never been a fan of weapons which shoot on trigger release, but i see scr rifle wreking everything that is not tanked with over 600 armor. Despite ACR it's not extremely powerful, people keep using it because it's easy to use and it's more popular than AR because it has better damage profile on armor. I prefer automatic weapons because i'm lazy and i don't want to spam R1. I just want to say that there are many different reasons to use a weapon, not always because it's OP. Some have luck, some have money, trading is not a crime. Minmatar omni-merc



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