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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5675	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:34:00 - [1] - Quote Over the several threads and posts regarding the Amarr scout bonus, no one has yet to attempt to counter this argument right here: If the Amarr scout's bonus was 20% per level, it would have 45 seconds of sprint at level 5. If a Gallente scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Caldari scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Minmatar scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 44.1 seconds of sprint. All of these are comparable values, plus they are also faster than the Amarr so would travel further in the slightly shorter time frame. And yes, it would be fair that these suits would have to equip a module to achieve comparable performance because likewise, the Amarr scout would have to equip a complex profile dampner, a complex precision enhancer, or complex codebreaker to achieve comparable performance to the other scouts in these respective areas. So, anyone want to take a crack at countering this? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5985	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:36:00 - [2] - Quote I'm willing to revise my current position on this if someone can make a well reasoned argument against this . "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2905	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:38:00 - [3] - Quote I can counter it: Sprinting for 45 seconds is bloody pointless. Give the Amarr something useful No.
JL3Eleven 1589	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:39:00 - [4] - Quote Because you touch yourself. How did I do? Supercorp: A corporation with the ability to shape and control events and project power on a New Eden-wide scale.
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 95	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:40:00 - [5] - Quote So you two are the same person then - its decided! :) By the way your logic appears to be sound.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1689	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:41:00 - [6] - Quote We'll you can get to objectives before other scouts built to run faster ( TROLL FACE ) "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5797	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:41:00 - [7] - Quote CPU/PG. A complex cardiac regulator is a CPU/PG hog that profile damps and precision enhancers simply aren't. It was in another scout thread that I saw where someone did the math, if you compare it in terms of CPU/PG, it all fits. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3876	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:44:00 - [8] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: I can counter it: Sprinting for 45 seconds is bloody pointless. Give the Amarr something useful Gallente : Uber Long ranged pasive radar + Complex profile dampener! (not to mention new innate 3 armor PER Sec repair! Caldari: Uber precise Radar capabilities + Complex Profile dampener! Minmatar: Uber leet Cx Codebreaker + 3 Cx Damage mosd worth in Nova Knife damage! Amarr: Runs more... equivalent to less than a MLT cardiac reg. Something is off.... GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5992	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:46:00 - [9] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CPU/PG. A complex cardiac regulator is a CPU/PG hog that profile damps and precision enhancers simply aren't. It was in another scout thread that I saw where someone did the math, if you compare it in terms of CPU/PG, it all fits. Can you elaborate more. Where last I checked the Cardiac Regulator isn't that much of a fittings hog. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5678	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:47:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CPU/PG. A complex cardiac regulator is a CPU/PG hog that profile damps and precision enhancers simply aren't. It was in another scout thread that I saw where someone did the math, if you compare it in terms of CPU/PG, it all fits. Amarr: Standard cardiac regulator: 5CPU 4PG Gallente: Complex profile dampener and standard range amp: 48CPU 0PG Caldari: Complex precision enhancer and standard range amp: 31 CPU 0PG Minmatar: Complex codebreaker (ignoring NK damage since that's hard to equate to a module): 45CPU 11PG Currently, the Amarr bonus's "CPU/PG equivalency" is not nearly in line with the rest. And for the record, a complex cardiac regulator is 12 CPU 8 PG, so I fail to see how your argument holds up. Care to explain? For the record, if anyone can counter this thread's argument soundly, then I will change my opinion. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6021	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:05:00 - [11] - Quote As will I. I'm not about to hold onto an ideal where someone presents me with irrefutable evidence that it is or is not correct. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 463	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:08:00 - [12] - Quote Running longer is obviously a sin... lol GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
King of Ghosts Nos Nothi 63	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:09:00 - [13] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CPU/PG. A complex cardiac regulator is a CPU/PG hog that profile damps and precision enhancers simply aren't. It was in another scout thread that I saw where someone did the math, if you compare it in terms of CPU/PG, it all fits. Can you elaborate more. Where last I checked the Cardiac Regulator isn't that much of a fittings hog. It's not. It's like what? 15 CPU and 8 PG at proto? That Hack bonus though. 54 CPU and 11 PG for a complex codebreaker. And it free's up a low slot. I'm in love with my Min Scout. I really hope you guys find something useful though The only Idea I had was a bonus to ferroscale plates, letting you armor tank more effectively without slowing down... I am most definitely, maybe, probably, possibly, PERHAPS, Ghost Kaisar. Nos Nothi Moderator: Call me if you need me.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5691	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:12:00 - [14] - Quote King Ghosts, it's actually 12 CPU 8 PG And honestly guys, this argument in the OP is the fundamental reason why I believe the current values of the Amarr racial bonus are under powered. So either a) Someone provides a clear counter and thus I am ok with the current planned bonus or b) No one can provide a counter, CCP sees this, they can't provide a counter, and they update the bonus It's a win-win situation and hopefully shows that I'm trying to be rational. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 531	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:12:00 - [15] - Quote Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Green Living 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1164	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:15:00 - [16] - Quote Bump. Saving my SP for the Amarr scout now.
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2257	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:16:00 - [17] - Quote I think the amarr, as their ethos goes, is relentless assault, grinding all beneath the boot type thing so with that stamina with one cardiac regulator means that you always remain getting in and out of combat at a steady unrelenting pace, never faltering, never giving the enemy one inch. Rp: Your faith gives you the strength to never yield. I'm not sure though, just trying to make sense of it. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2257	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:17:00 - [18] - Quote You'd never run out of stamina, ever pretty much. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5691	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:18:00 - [19] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. Amarr Scout Base Stamina: 225 20% per level = 100% bonus at level 5 225 x 2 = 450 = 45 seconds Now for the complex cardiac regulators, they are 100% bonuses as well but also the skill is 2% efficacy per level, so once you can buy complex regulators they are actually 110%. This is fair to include in the calculations since the Amarr scout wouldn't be able to take advantage of this skill. Gallente Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Caldari Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Minmatar Scout Base Stamina: 210 110% bonus 210 * 2.1 = 441 = 44.1 seconds ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 42	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:18:00 - [20] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: I can counter it: Sprinting for 45 seconds is bloody pointless. Give the Amarr something useful Gallente : Uber Long ranged pasive radar + Complex profile dampener! (not to mention new innate 3 armor PER Sec repair! Caldari: Uber precise Radar capabilities + Complex Profile dampener! Minmatar: Uber leet Cx Codebreaker + 3 Cx Damage mosd worth in Nova Knife damage! Amarr: Runs more... equivalent to less than a MLT cardiac reg. Something is off.... Caldari dont get bones equal to a dampener.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5695	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:20:00 - [21] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: You'd never run out of stamina, ever pretty much. Is that supposed to be your counter? Because neither would any of the other scouts in my argument, pretty much. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2258	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:23:00 - [22] - Quote I'm not trying to justify it either or prove anything about its validity, just chucking that out there. Scouts by nature don't even seem to fit the Amarr code of honour, if you was truly faithful, why'd you need to hide? Or even run fast for that matter? Why would you run? Meh lol Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2258	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:23:00 - [23] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: You'd never run out of stamina, ever pretty much. Is that supposed to be your counter? Because neither would any of the other scouts in my argument, pretty much. Nah I'm not even arguing lol. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 996	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:25:00 - [24] - Quote alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. {:)}{3GÇó>
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2258	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:28:00 - [25] - Quote Oh yeah I'm knackered, forgot the likes lol. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5701	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:29:00 - [26] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2258	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:30:00 - [27] - Quote Done lol Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 533	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:30:00 - [28] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. Amarr Scout Base Stamina: 225 20% per level = 100% bonus at level 5 225 x 2 = 450 = 45 seconds Now for the complex cardiac regulators, they are 100% bonuses as well but also the skill is 2% efficacy per level, so once you can buy complex regulators they are actually 110%. This is fair to include in the calculations since the Amarr scout wouldn't be able to take advantage of this skill. Gallente Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Caldari Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Minmatar Scout Base Stamina: 210 110% bonus 210 * 2.1 = 441 = 44.1 seconds Thanks. I'll do some digging tomorrow. Bit I'm curious what effects the regen and speed have on the overall picture. So might be best to determine how far they go in a given timeframe. Or perhaps a m/s compare. I don't know how to do that without some digging. But perhaps someone with l33t math skills can do it. Might end up proving your point even more. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 618	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:31:00 - [29] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: I can counter it: Sprinting for 45 seconds is bloody pointless. Give the Amarr something useful Gallente : Uber Long ranged pasive radar + Complex profile dampener! (not to mention new innate 3 armor PER Sec repair! Caldari: Uber precise Radar capabilities + Complex Profile dampener! Minmatar: Uber leet Cx Codebreaker + 3 Cx Damage mosd worth in Nova Knife damage! Amarr: Runs more... equivalent to less than a MLT cardiac reg. Something is off.... Caldari don't get dampners. They get radar radius and precision.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2053	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:31:00 - [30] - Quote How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire

IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 533	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:35:00 - [31] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. I think he means if you no longer "need" to equip a green. Basically u would have infinite stamina, it would be a bit op. To compare, a gal with 25% more range would be 20+5. Which isn't all that far. So equipping another range amp would be useful. Minmitar having 25% more hack speed is only 2 less seconds. But putting on a code breaker makes it 7 less. With the 20% boost you would never "need" to have more stamina. Which means slightly op. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 618	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:35:00 - [32] - Quote Also, to contribute to the thread: I have level 1 cardiac just for the basic module (me no likey militia) and let me tell you: from nothing to basic, it feels like you can run forever and your stamina regains super fast. I don't know why anyone would use anything above basic unless they want to hack the point closest to the enemy's MCC...
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5701	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:35:00 - [33] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. Amarr Scout Base Stamina: 225 20% per level = 100% bonus at level 5 225 x 2 = 450 = 45 seconds Now for the complex cardiac regulators, they are 100% bonuses as well but also the skill is 2% efficacy per level, so once you can buy complex regulators they are actually 110%. This is fair to include in the calculations since the Amarr scout wouldn't be able to take advantage of this skill. Gallente Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Caldari Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Minmatar Scout Base Stamina: 210 110% bonus 210 * 2.1 = 441 = 44.1 seconds Thanks. I'll do some digging tomorrow. Bit I'm curious what effects the regen and speed have on the overall picture. So might be best to determine how far they go in a given timeframe. Or perhaps a m/s compare. I don't know how to do that without some digging. But perhaps someone with l33t math skills can do it. Might end up proving your point even more. As far as stamina recovery goes, using the same math, the results would be Amarr: 80 Gallente: 63 Caldari: 63 Minmatar: 73.5 Thus, if you divide the stamina by the stamina recovery you will get how long it would take to fully recharge this stamina, Amarr: 5.625 seconds Gallente: 6.666 seconds Caldari: 6.666 seconds Minmatar: 6.000 seconds Which is all pretty much in line, again. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 533	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:35:00 - [34] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5701	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:36:00 - [35] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Also, to contribute to the thread: I have level 1 cardiac just for the basic module (me no likey militia) and let me tell you: from nothing to basic, it feels like you can run forever and your stamina regains super fast. I don't know why anyone would use anything above basic unless they want to hack the point closest to the enemy's MCC... This personal anecdote does not address the argument presented in the original post of this thread. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 996	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:40:00 - [36] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. First the 500% number would be total bonus so 100%/Lv. Actually I think the number would be more like 400%. I was thinking the current base stat (16m) instead of the 1.8 base stat (20m). So 80m/Lv. My reasoning is quite simple. I am quite satisfied with my current scan radius of 73m (will be 76 in 1.8 if I remember the numbers right). In order to achieve that scan radius, it requires me to equip two complex range amps. Hence the utility of these respective modules is not equal, because noone ever has need/desire to equip two card regs. {:)}{3GÇó>
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:42:00 - [37] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. I think he means if you no longer "need" to equip a green. Basically u would have infinite stamina, it would be a bit op. To compare, a gal with 25% more range would be 20+5. Which isn't all that far. So equipping another range amp would be useful. Minmitar having 25% more hack speed is only 2 less seconds. But putting on a code breaker makes it 7 less. With the 20% boost you would never "need" to have more stamina. Which means slightly op. One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. And to address that concern, let's take the Gallente scout for example since it perfectly mirrors the Amarr scout's slot layout and is good for comparison. So the Amarr scout doesn't need to equip a green anymore because it pretty much has infinite stamina, so that saves it one low slot, leaving it with all 4 left. Meanwhile a Gallente scout would have to use up one low slot to have this infinite stamina, leaving it with 3 lows left. But now, say the Gallente wants to avoid Gal Logi scanners, it would only have to put in one complex profile dampener since it already has one built in, leaving it with 2 low slots left. For the Amarr to do the same thing, it would need to apply two complex profile dampeners, leaving it with 2 low slots left. They are now at the same spot. Hope that makes sense. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 463	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:43:00 - [38] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. I think he means if you no longer "need" to equip a green. Basically u would have infinite stamina, it would be a bit op. To compare, a gal with 25% more range would be 20+5. Which isn't all that far. So equipping another range amp would be useful. Minmitar having 25% more hack speed is only 2 less seconds. But putting on a code breaker makes it 7 less. With the 20% boost you would never "need" to have more stamina. Which means slightly op. Hmm.. I see your point. This is exactly why I would personally settle on 10% per level. Not sure about other amarr scouts though. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:44:00 - [39] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1689	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:48:00 - [40] - Quote Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. I think he means if you no longer "need" to equip a green. Basically u would have infinite stamina, it would be a bit op. To compare, a gal with 25% more range would be 20+5. Which isn't all that far. So equipping another range amp would be useful. Minmitar having 25% more hack speed is only 2 less seconds. But putting on a code breaker makes it 7 less. With the 20% boost you would never "need" to have more stamina. Which means slightly op. Hmm.. I see your point. This is exactly why I would personally settle on 10% per level. Not sure about other amarr scouts though. I'd be happy with that but if that's it any other scout is still more desirable "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:52:00 - [41] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Marad''er wrote: Hmm.. I see your point. This is exactly why I would personally settle on 10% per level. Not sure about other amarr scouts though. I'd be happy with that but if that's it any other scout is still more desirable At the very least, we are making progress in getting our point of view across in a way that doesn't come off as whining, QQing, or plain Amarr bias. If anything, I just want people to see that we are being rational. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2053	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:56:00 - [42] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. I'm trying to figure out what the Amarr scouts stamina would be with current proposed bonus and what the stamina would be with your bonus. Im tired and my brain isn't that good to begin with. I'm trying to figure out...stuff "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 996	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:56:00 - [43] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. {:)}{3GÇó>
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:58:00 - [44] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. But whatever it is, the Gal scout would require one less low slot to achieve it than the Amarr scout (using this comparison because they have the same slot layout). So freeing up that one extra low slot is then equivalent to the Amarr scout not needing to apply a green and freeing up one low slot. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 466	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:00:00 - [45] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. I'm trying to figure out what the Amarr scouts stamina would be with current proposed bonus and what the stamina would be with your bonus. Im tired and my brain isn't that good to begin with. I'm trying to figure out...stuff Base stamina? 5% per level = 281.25 stamina base. + 1 Complx cardiac = 562.5 20% per level = 450 stamina base. + 1 Complx cardiac = 900 GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5703	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:03:00 - [46] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. I'm trying to figure out what the Amarr scouts stamina would be with current proposed bonus and what the stamina would be with your bonus. Im tired and my brain isn't that good to begin with. I'm trying to figure out...stuff Base stamina? 5% per level = 281.25 stamina base. + 1 Complx cardiac = 562.5 20% per level = 450 stamina base. + 1 Complx cardiac = 900 But the whole point is the bonus saves you a low slot, so if you want to use that latter comparison then you need to compare it to every other scout using two complex cardiac regulators. Honestly I don't see why anyone would do that, but still. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 997	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:05:00 - [47] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. But whatever it is, the Gal scout would require one less low slot to achieve it than the Amarr scout (using this comparison because they have the same slot layout). So freeing up that one extra low slot is then equivalent to the Amarr scout not needing to apply a green and freeing up one low slot. I see wher you are coming from. I just think that ten % and something else small would be a better idea. Personally, I think a small bonus to clock field active time or clock cost to activate would be cool. {:)}{3GÇó>
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5703	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:08:00 - [48] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. But whatever it is, the Gal scout would require one less low slot to achieve it than the Amarr scout (using this comparison because they have the same slot layout). So freeing up that one extra low slot is then equivalent to the Amarr scout not needing to apply a green and freeing up one low slot. I see wher you are coming from. I just think that ten % and something else small would be a better idea. Personally, I think a small bonus to clock field active time or clock cost to activate would be cool. I would definitely be ok with 10% and something else small. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 621	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:09:00 - [49] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Over the several threads and posts regarding the Amarr scout bonus, no one has yet to attempt to counter this argument right here: If the Amarr scout's bonus was 20% per level, it would have 45 seconds of sprint at level 5. If a Gallente scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Caldari scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Minmatar scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 44.1 seconds of sprint. All of these are comparable values, plus they are also faster than the Amarr so would travel further in the slightly shorter time frame. Scout ak0: 236m before stamina is exhausted Scout gk0: 228m Scout ck0: 228m Scout mk0: 249m so yeah. "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 121	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:09:00 - [50] - Quote I notice in your math you for the a-scout you had the x2 multiplier for it while the others got a x2.1, why would you exclude the 10% efficiency skill bonus for c-regs on Amarr but add it to the others? If they are all using complex to get that x2, they would all get the bonus, just asking, as it confused me when I saw your example.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:14:00 - [51] - Quote Absoliav wrote: I notice in your math you for the a-scout you had the x2 multiplier for it while the others got a x2.1, why would you exclude the 10% efficiency skill bonus for c-regs on Amarr but add it to the others? If they are all using complex to get that x2, they would all get the bonus, just asking, as it confused me when I saw your example. Because the Amarr bonus would simply be 100% more (20% per level times 5 levels), while the other scouts would have to use a complex regulator, but in order to use complex regulators you need cardiac regulation to 5 which gives you the bonus of 10% more efficacy towards cardiac regulators. And since the Amarr scout wouldn't use a cardiac regulator module, as it already has practically infinite stamina an no need for one of these modules, it would not be able to take advantage of this efficacy bonus. And for further clarification, the Amarr saving one slot with the cardiac regulator is equivalent to Gallente saving a slot with profile dampening, Caldari saving a slot with scan precision, and Minmatar saving a slot with hack speed. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:16:00 - [52] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Over the several threads and posts regarding the Amarr scout bonus, no one has yet to attempt to counter this argument right here: If the Amarr scout's bonus was 20% per level, it would have 45 seconds of sprint at level 5. If a Gallente scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Caldari scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Minmatar scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 44.1 seconds of sprint. All of these are comparable values, plus they are also faster than the Amarr so would travel further in the slightly shorter time frame. Scout ak0: 236m before stamina is exhausted Scout gk0: 228m Scout ck0: 228m Scout mk0: 249m so yeah. And of course the Amarr would take 3 seconds longer to do this than the Caldari and Gallente (45 seconds to exhaust sprint opposed to 42) and 0.9 seconds longer than Minmatar, while traveling less distance noneless. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 894	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:21:00 - [53] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: So, anyone want to take a crack at countering this? This run-in-a-straight-line thought experiment fails to speak to the combat value of Stamina Regen. I assume you are tankier than other Scouts because you're intended to perform more combat functions. So to a hit-and-run, up-armored, Combat Scout ... What is more important, Stamina Regen or Stamina Pool? If you wanted to "win the distance race" ... why not pile KinCats and CardRegs onto a non-up-armored Scout? Or take a Vehicle? Scouts were replaced as "first to letter on foot" long ago. The vehicle will always win. You guys are downplaying the significant combat value of Stamina Regen. I defer to Marauder on this topic; I believe he has said the bonus should be +10% rather than +5% per level.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 997	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:23:00 - [54] - Quote Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. {:)}{3GÇó>
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 121	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:23:00 - [55] - Quote Looking at the a-scout's stats, it looks to me that is is going to be the most durable of the scouts and judging from it's race bonus and slot layout, it's leaning more towards a battle scout making it the hardest scout to put down if you put a complex damp, reg, ferroscales, and a reper, I don't really see the issue hear, yeah it won't be as stealthy as the others, or as fast, but that doesn't really mean much if the other scouts die from just looking at them.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 619	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:25:00 - [56] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Joel II X wrote: Also, to contribute to the thread: I have level 1 cardiac just for the basic module (me no likey militia) and let me tell you: from nothing to basic, it feels like you can run forever and your stamina regains super fast. I don't know why anyone would use anything above basic unless they want to hack the point closest to the enemy's MCC... This personal anecdote does not address the argument presented in the original post of this thread. From what I understood, you wanted to know why every other scout has complex level mods to their suits at level 5 when the Amarr, doesn't. Is that right? If so, then I told you why from my opinion. It already feels like you can run forever with the basic module. With a free complex one, you could run even further, and possibly faster. That wouldn't give the time for anyone to catch up. Not only that, but your stamina would regenerate faster than I could blink. In my opinion, if the bonus was to get a boost, it shouldn't be a lot.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:26:00 - [57] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: So, anyone want to take a crack at countering this? This run-in-a-straight-line thought experiment fails to speak to the combat value of Stamina Regen. I assume you are tankier than other Scouts because you're intended to perform more combat functions. So to a hit-and-run, up-armored, Combat Scout ... What is more important, Stamina Regen or Stamina Pool? If you wanted to "win the distance race" ... why not pile KinCats and CardRegs onto a non-up-armored Scout? Better yet, if you want to "win the distance race", why not just take a Vehicle? You guys are downplaying the significant combat value of Stamina Regen. I defer to Marauder on this topic; I believe he has said the bonus should be +10% rather than +5% per level. This isn't a "run-in-a-straight-line" experiment, I listed the total stamina of all races. Also a few posts ago I did the math for stamina regen for all races. They are all in line with each other, giving them the the same combat value of the stamina as well. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3271	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:26:00 - [58] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: And yes, it would be fair that these suits would have to equip a module to achieve comparable performance because likewise, the Amarr scout would have to equip a complex profile dampner, a complex precision enhancer, or complex codebreaker to achieve comparable performance to the other scouts in these respective areas. This is wrong, though not in the way you'd think. Can an Amarr Scout equip 1 complex profile dampener to equal that bonus? Yes. Can an Amarr Scout equip 1 complex precision enhancer to equal that bonus? NO A complex precision enhancer only imparts a 20% bonus, you'd need more than that. Can an Amarr Scout equip 1 complex codebreaker to equal that bonus? NO A complex codebreaker imparts 25%, but the Minmatar suit in particular has a 5% inherent suit hacking bonus over the other races. A single complex codebreaker wouldn't match this. That's aside from a secondary bonus, etc. to match the other bonuses. But I think this bears repeating, since a complex precision enhancer or codebreaker isn't actually enough just to match their -single- bonus, while a Basic Cardiac Regulator surpasses the Amarr's current bonus. Join my cult.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:27:00 - [59] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Joel II X wrote: Also, to contribute to the thread: I have level 1 cardiac just for the basic module (me no likey militia) and let me tell you: from nothing to basic, it feels like you can run forever and your stamina regains super fast. I don't know why anyone would use anything above basic unless they want to hack the point closest to the enemy's MCC... This personal anecdote does not address the argument presented in the original post of this thread. From what I understood, you wanted to know why every other scout has complex level mods to their suits at level 5 when the Amarr, doesn't. Is that right? If so, then I told you why from my opinion. It already feels like you can run forever with the basic module. With a free complex one, you could run even further, and possibly faster. That wouldn't give the time for anyone to catch up. Not only that, but your stamina would regenerate faster than I could blink. In my opinion, if the bonus was to get a boost, it shouldn't be a lot. But then look at how that compared to other scouts using a complex cardiac regulator with the freed up slot they gain from their respective bonuses, that is what I'm saying. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:28:00 - [60] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here, a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2129	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:32:00 - [61] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: King Ghosts, it's actually 12 CPU 8 PG And honestly guys, this argument in the OP is the fundamental reason why I believe the current values of the Amarr racial bonus are under powered. So either a) Someone provides a clear counter and thus I am ok with the current planned bonus or b) No one can provide a counter, CCP sees this, they can't provide a counter, and they update the bonus It's a win-win situation and hopefully shows that I'm trying to be rational. I really need to pay attention to what account I post with THIS Thread has been very rational. Others have not. I don't feel the need to include examples, because we have seen them. As I said, I can't think of a good bonus for you guys, so all I can do is wish you luck and go back to building my Min Suit. I. Can't. Wait. For 1.8. Also, I'll pop in here if you guys need someone to bounce idea's off of. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5706	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:35:00 - [62] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Also, I'll pop in here if you guys need someone to bounce idea's off of. Check the updated OP, what do you think? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2129	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:36:00 - [63] - Quote Reserved, this will take a while to read. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 834	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:36:00 - [64] - Quote King of Ghosts wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CPU/PG. A complex cardiac regulator is a CPU/PG hog that profile damps and precision enhancers simply aren't. It was in another scout thread that I saw where someone did the math, if you compare it in terms of CPU/PG, it all fits. Can you elaborate more. Where last I checked the Cardiac Regulator isn't that much of a fittings hog. It's not. It's like what? 15 CPU and 8 PG at proto? That Hack bonus though. 54 CPU and 11 PG for a complex codebreaker. And it free's up a low slot. I'm in love with my Min Scout. I really hope you guys find something useful though The only Idea I had was a bonus to ferroscale plates, letting you armor tank more effectively without slowing down... I like the ferroscale thing you are suggesting. Another i think very good option that will make everyone hapy would be to keep curre stamina bonus and take enhanced precision from Caldari and instead give Caldari shield recharge bonus. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Piraten Hovnoret Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 234	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:37:00 - [65] - Quote They al need to sacrifice a module 2 get the same sprint speed. So amar have to sacrifice a slot to get dampening or whatever is kind of the backside of the coin. One thing I don't understand is in what way the amar lore concept works with this running bonus, I believed the amar was to high and mighty run and sh-ít. =ƒÿé Regards War never changes
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 121	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:38:00 - [66] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Absoliav wrote: I notice in your math you for the a-scout you had the x2 multiplier for it while the others got a x2.1, why would you exclude the 10% efficiency skill bonus for c-regs on Amarr but add it to the others? If they are all using complex to get that x2, they would all get the bonus, just asking, as it confused me when I saw your example. Because the Amarr bonus would simply be 100% more (20% per level times 5 levels), while the other scouts would have to use a complex regulator, but in order to use complex regulators you need cardiac regulation to 5 which gives you the bonus of 10% more efficacy towards cardiac regulators. And since the Amarr scout wouldn't use a cardiac regulator module, as it already has practically infinite stamina an no need for one of these modules, it would not be able to take advantage of this efficacy bonus. And for further clarification, the Amarr saving one slot with the cardiac regulator is equivalent to Gallente saving a slot with profile dampening, Caldari saving a slot with scan precision, and Minmatar saving a slot with hack speed. But would you skip putting a damp on a Cal scout just cause of a native bonus? If yes, then that's just silly to skip on a clear advantage, judging from the stats on the A-Scout, it is clearly built to last longer then the other scouts, it has more total health, four lows and more stamina/recov than the others, unlike Cal and Gal, you wouldn't have to use two slots to get the most out of it's bonus as Gal would need to reserve two slots just to take advantage of it's bonuses, Amarr would only need one and would have five free slots to take advantage of it's higher durability. The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5710	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:49:00 - [67] - Quote Absoliav wrote: But would you skip putting a damp on a Cal scout just cause of a native bonus? If yes, then that's just silly to skip on a clear advantage, judging from the stats on the A-Scout, it is clearly built to last longer then the other scouts, it has more total health, four lows and more stamina/recov than the others, unlike Cal and Gal, you wouldn't have to use two slots to get the most out of it's bonus as Gal would need to reserve two slots just to take advantage of it's bonuses, Amarr would only need one and would have five free slots to take advantage of it's higher durability. The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. The Cal scout has no native bonus to dampening, you are thinking th Gal scout? And a couple things, 1) I am not too sure the A-Scout is built to last longer. It only has 30 more HP, but at total HP values as low as scouts that doesn't really mean as much as movement speed for dodging bullets, and the Amarr scout has the least movement speed. Saying the Amarr scout is built to last longer is thus entirely subjective. 2) While the Cal and Gal scout would still need to apply profile dampeners/precision enhancers, the amount they need to apply would be 1 slot less than what the Amarr scout would need to apply to get comparable values. This saving of one slot is equivalent to the Amarr saving one slot by not needing a Cardiac regulator. Of course, as Son-Of A-Gun pointed out, this means the Amarr can save skill points by not needing to spec into cardiac regulation at all, so a 20% bonus per level isn't exactly fair. He suggested instead it is a 10% per level bonus along with a small secondary bonus, which sounds good and in line with the other bonuses. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core 443	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:55:00 - [68] - Quote What will the amarr scouts's recovery rate be compared to the other scouts? A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2129	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:57:00 - [69] - Quote Updated my Post. @ Johnny Check my post. I give a rough estimate. I can give you exact details if you wish. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5710	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:58:00 - [70] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: What will the amarr scouts's recovery rate be compared to the other scouts? Aero Yassavi wrote: As far as stamina recovery goes, using the same math, the results would be Amarr: 80 Gallente: 63 Caldari: 63 Minmatar: 73.5 Thus, if you divide the stamina by the stamina recovery you will get how long it would take to fully recharge this stamina, Amarr: 5.625 seconds Gallente: 6.666 seconds Caldari: 6.666 seconds Minmatar: 6.000 seconds Which is all pretty much in line, again. Added to the original post. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:09:00 - [71] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Absoliav wrote: But would you skip putting a damp on a Cal scout just cause of a native bonus? If yes, then that's just silly to skip on a clear advantage, judging from the stats on the A-Scout, it is clearly built to last longer then the other scouts, it has more total health, four lows and more stamina/recov than the others, unlike Cal and Gal, you wouldn't have to use two slots to get the most out of it's bonus as Gal would need to reserve two slots just to take advantage of it's bonuses, Amarr would only need one and would have five free slots to take advantage of it's higher durability. The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. The Cal scout has no native bonus to dampening, you are thinking th Gal scout? And a couple things, 1) I am not too sure the A-Scout is built to last longer. It only has 30 more HP, but at total HP values as low as scouts that doesn't really mean as much as movement speed for dodging bullets, and the Amarr scout has the least movement speed. Saying the Amarr scout is built to last longer is thus entirely subjective. 2) While the Cal and Gal scout would still need to apply profile dampeners/precision enhancers, the amount they need to apply would be 1 slot less than what the Amarr scout would need to apply to get comparable values. This saving of one slot is equivalent to the Amarr saving one slot by not needing a Cardiac regulator. Of course, as Son-Of A-Gun pointed out, this means the Amarr can save skill points by not needing to spec into cardiac regulation at all, so a 20% bonus per level isn't exactly fair. He suggested instead it is a 10% per level bonus along with a small secondary bonus, which sounds good and in line with the other bonuses. Alright then, this is good progress. The next step, I think, is to start making these ideas a [feedback] thread in the feedback section of the forums. What you should do is, write up the ideas fostered in this thread as well as several acceptable "other small bonuses" and post it in the feed back section with a link to this thread so the DEVs can appreciate/understand how we arrived at where we are now. Then you should also start a new thread in GD and gather more opinions on "other small bonuses" and link that thread to the feedback thread, and ask for the GD community to help you keep the feedback thread alive in the OP of the new GD thread. I think that that would just about do it. {:)}{3GÇó>
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2131	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:11:00 - [72] - Quote Absoliav wrote: The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. Yep. M-Scout: "To heck with health! I'll be gone before they turn around!!" A-Scout: " I will catch up to you. And I WILL* kill you. "* C-Scout: "Hey guys! THEY'RE OVER HERE" G-Scout: "......." (He's staying silent to stay hidden") Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5714	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:20:00 - [73] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 121	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:23:00 - [74] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The Cal scout has no native bonus to dampening, you are thinking th Gal scout? And a couple things, 1) I am not too sure the A-Scout is built to last longer. It only has 30 more HP, but at total HP values as low as scouts that doesn't really mean as much as movement speed for dodging bullets, and the Amarr scout has the least movement speed. Saying the Amarr scout is built to last longer is thus entirely subjective. 2) While the Cal and Gal scout would still need to apply profile dampeners/precision enhancers, the amount they need to apply would be 1 slot less than what the Amarr scout would need to apply to get comparable values. This saving of one slot is equivalent to the Amarr saving one slot by not needing a Cardiac regulator. Of course, as Son-Of A-Gun pointed out, this means the Amarr can save skill points by not needing to spec into cardiac regulation at all, so a 20% bonus per level isn't exactly fair. He suggested instead it is a 10% per level bonus along with a small secondary bonus, which sounds good and in line with the other bonuses. Thank you for the correction, I did in fact meant to Gal, if the skills for armor and shields stay the same in 1.8 the Amarr Scout with max skills would have a sum of 287 total health, and with 4 lows to play with can easily armor tank with ferros, add one ferro, 370, two equals 452, and it'll still have the same speed and two free high slots to ether put on extenders or damage mods. The Amarr is clearly built for more conflict then the others, just as the Amarr Logi is more the aggresive logi for it's obvious weapon advantage over the other logis. I understand if we look at A-Scout bonus froma single comparative perspective it's clearly the weaker bonus, but if we expand our view too look and consider the applications and how they can be applied on the field, we can see it's far more useful then at first glance.
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 121	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:25:00 - [75] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Absoliav wrote: The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. Yep. M-Scout: "To heck with health! I'll be gone before they turn around!!" A-Scout: " I will catch up to you. And I WILL* kill you. "* C-Scout: "Hey guys! THEY'RE OVER HERE" G-Scout: "......." (He's staying silent to stay hidden") I would love to see this in comic format!
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1000	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:26:00 - [76] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while. {:)}{3GÇó>
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2134	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:26:00 - [77] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Absoliav wrote: The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. Yep. M-Scout: "To heck with health! I'll be gone before they turn around!!" A-Scout: " I will catch up to you. And I WILL* kill you. "* C-Scout: "Hey guys! THEY'RE OVER HERE" G-Scout: "......." (He's staying silent to stay hidden") I would love to see this in comic format! Sadly, I am the furthest thing from a comic artist. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5715	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:33:00 - [78] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while. By the way, with that like I welcome you to the ranks for Forum Warrior ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2136	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:34:00 - [79] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while. By the way, with that like I welcome you to the ranks for Forum Warrior Yep! He's at 1k now! Congrats! ONE OF US. ONE OF US. ONE OF US. I really need to go to sleep...... Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 234	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:34:00 - [80] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. Amarr Scout Base Stamina: 225 20% per level = 100% bonus at level 5 225 x 2 = 450 = 45 seconds Now for the complex cardiac regulators, they are 100% bonuses as well but also the skill is 2% efficacy per level, so once you can buy complex regulators they are actually 110%. This is fair to include in the calculations since the Amarr scout wouldn't be able to take advantage of this skill. Gallente Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Caldari Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Minmatar Scout Base Stamina: 210 110% bonus 210 * 2.1 = 441 = 44.1 seconds Add to base stamina that what we get from skills. I'm here since may 2012, my EVE alter ego is Nosum Hseebnrido.

Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1002	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:42:00 - [81] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while. By the way, with that like I welcome you to the ranks for Forum Warrior Yep! He's at 1k now! Congrats! ONE OF US. ONE OF US. ONE OF US. I really need to go to sleep...... It would have been a long time ago if I hadn't kept getting banned. My Ignoble Son character (my main account) has about 500 or so likes too, but he is currently banned till mid Feb. Sadly I did not even know I was about to break 1000. For the last week I haven't been able to see any "poster" information other than their name and I have no idea what the problem is or how to fix it. But I appreciate you letting me know. Yay me. Forum warrior Lv 1 alright. {:)}{3GÇó>
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 196	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:48:00 - [82] - Quote First bonus: 10% reduction to spawns time (i left the +2 to max. spawn count per level for balance) Second Bonus 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or First bonus: 12% reduction to PG/CPU cost of drop uplink equipment Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or first bonus: Amarr Scout Bonus: 5% reduction to cloak field cooldown per level. And maybe a second bonus (depend if Cloak sucks a little or whatnot): 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or First bonus: 3% Scrambler Pistol damage per level. Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen CCP this or just remove Amarr scout dropsuit QQ king kobrah QQ
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5715	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:55:00 - [83] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: First bonus: 10% reduction to spawns time (i left the +2 to max. spawn count per level for balance) Second Bonus 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or First bonus: 12% reduction to PG/CPU cost of drop uplink equipment Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or first bonus: Amarr Scout Bonus: 5% reduction to cloak field cooldown per level. And maybe a second bonus (depend if Cloak sucks a little or whatnot): 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or First bonus: 3% Scrambler Pistol damage per level. Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen CCP this or just remove Amarr scout dropsuit 1st proposal interferes too much with the Amarr logi bonus. 2nd proposal creates another fitting bonus, which is silly when the class bonus is already a fitting bonus 3rd proposal sounds good but a lot of people don't like the thought of cloak performance bonuses 4th proposal sounds too overpowered, we should try to avoid giving flat out damage bonuses. This is one of the problem with the Amarr scout, there are only so many stats you can affect and none seem quite right. My favorite suggestion so far is a stamina bonus and a bonus to ferroscale plates, but I need to put a little more thought into that as well as calculations. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3277	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:23:00 - [84] - Quote Ferroscale bonuses would be crap. First among the low-hp suits would still be a crappy tank and a subpar scout. Plus, it locks you into a very specific module for a bonus. Which means you're ONLY getting to use your bonus if you choose to be that crappy tank. Amarr Scout bonuses are best on movement, utility, and attack. Just because they have a reputation for armor-tanking and militarism doesn't mean all their bonuses have to be tank-related. It just gets silly. The scout should be a scout. Join my cult.
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:30:00 - [85] - Quote I've ran the math in another thread, where the Amarr bonus would really shine is in equipping a cardiac regulator. Assuming 100% bonus. You've got to figure in biotics skill because everyone should have it. Base stats for the Amarr with the 100% bonus. Stamina 472.5 Stamina Regen 84. Alright now let's figure a Gal and Minnie with a Pro Cardiac Regulator max biotics and reg skill. Gal Stamina 441 Stamina Regen 66.15 Minnie Stamina 463.05 Stamina Regen 77.175 Ya you're probably thinking oh that's pretty close what's wrong with that? Let's add a regulator to the Amarr. Amarr Stamina 992.25 Stamina Regen 176.4. Easily 100% or 2x more effective than any other scout running the same mod. That's 99 seconds of run time recharging in 5.625 secs Figure a Gal with Max skills and Pro Dampener DB rating is 17.71875. Amarr with a Dampener 23.625. Notice how Gal is only 25% or 1.25 more effective? The 100% bonus is asking a lot. As Son-of-a-Gun said, it should max at 50% with a secondary bonus. The bonus base stamina and the way the math figures still leaves Amarr as kings of stamina. They will be bunny hopping all over the place.
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 197	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:30:00 - [86] - Quote hey you are too much of a picky , i think 2nd proposal is best and the 3% Scrambler Pistol damage per level complex mod + enchanted is ok i mean Nk is 25 % max compared to Scrambler Pistol 15 % max QQ king kobrah QQ
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 197	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:34:00 - [87] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: I've ran the math in another thread, where the Amarr bonus would really shine is in equipping a cardiac regulator. Assuming 100% bonus. You've got to figure in biotics skill because everyone should have it. Base stats for the Amarr with the 100% bonus. Stamina 472.5 Stamina Regen 84. Alright now let's figure a Gal and Minnie with a Pro Cardiac Regulator max biotics and reg skill. Gal Stamina 441 Stamina Regen 66.15 Minnie Stamina 463.05 Stamina Regen 77.175 Ya you're probably thinking oh that's pretty close what's wrong with that? Let's add a regulator to the Amarr. Amarr Stamina 992.25 Stamina Regen 176.4. Easily 100% or 2x more effective than any other scout running the same mod. That's 99 seconds of run time recharging in 5.625 secs Figure a Gal with Max skills and Pro Dampener DB rating is 17.71875. Amarr with a Dampener 23.625. Notice how Gal is only 25% or 1.25 more effective? The 100% bonus is asking a lot. As Son-of-a-Gun said, it should max at 50% with a secondary bonus. The bonus base stamina and the way the math figures still leaves Amarr as kings of stamina. They will be bunny hopping all over the place. bunny hopping< Aim assist QQ king kobrah QQ
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 457	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:45:00 - [88] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: hey you are too much of a picky , i think 2nd proposal is best and the 3% Scrambler Pistol damage per level complex mod + enchanted is ok i mean Nk is 25 % max compared to Scrambler Pistol 15 % max But NK's are pretty hard to use when it's not on a level 5 min scout, at least against decent suits. Scrambler pistols have crazy alpha damage and can deal it out over range, plus the burst and some other variants are getting a large range buff. I would rather them buff up the stamina/stamina recovery to 10% per level. As many others have stated it really couldn't be that OP because the other scouts can cover more ground with their sprint speed and it's not like running around forever really is that powerful. It still won't matter since HP > all because it's hit detection 514. We won't even be able to use half of our stamina before we get killed in 0.3 seconds by a rail rifle from 120 meters away! Do you think there'll be QQ threads when 1.8 comes out because Amarr scouts can run too long? Do you really think that would happen? Director of ZionTCD Amarr Logi \| Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Scout (SoonGäó) Current weapon: Kaalakiota Rail Rifle
boba's fetta Dead Man's Game 234	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:48:00 - [89] - Quote stamina doesnt matter much if they see you.. just saying.
Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 287	Posted - 2014.01.21 10:20:00 - [90] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: First bonus: 3% Scrambler Pistol damage per level. Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Aero and I discussed scrambler pistol bonuses in another thread yesterday, the only bonus that wouldnt leave the pistol even more devastating than it already is would be extra maximum ammo per level +1 clip size/level would just allow you to fire almost 50% longer (11 shots -> 16 shots) +5% reload speed of pistols/level would severely blur the already short reload time on pistols (2.15 seconds -> 1.52 seconds) +3% damage per level is just another set of proficiency skills for the pistol (+67.5% headshot damage -> +135% headshot damage, before any damage mods (also improves the scaling of damage mods by a large amount)) +5% max ammo/level: allows you longer times away from a nanohive, would potentially free up an equipment slot on the scout Aero personally believes that +1 clipsize per level is redundant, i personally think giving another operation skill bonus would just allow myself an other pistol users to kill even more people between reloads Tech De Ra for CPM1

Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 10	Posted - 2014.01.21 13:42:00 - [91] - Quote I agree with 10% stamina and regen per level plus another bonus. 5% is a little poor considering this can be achieved with a basic module and is a little underwhelming. 20% would be unnecessary and feel weird from a rp perspective (I could believe it more easily if it was the result of mental green drugs). In reality there is not much difference between a basic and a complex cardiac regulator, which is why people tend to use a basic one or none at all. With a basic regulator you can generally run as far as you want with a minimal stamina recharge time. The issue is the use of a low slot as has been mentioned previously. The Amarr bonus saves a slot in the same way as the other suit's primary bonus. I also agree they need a secondary bonus like the other suits. I too was thinking a bonus to scrambler pistols. Scrambler pistol: extra ammo or extra clipsize. I like how both maintain the idea of the Amarr being "relentless". Also it nicely mirrors the minmatar bonus to knives. The questions are whether clipsize would be op or ammo would be rubbish? P.S. I know Tech De Ra stated these ideas earlier, just re-posting them as I had exactly the same ideas.
Fristname Family name The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 48	Posted - 2014.01.21 14:00:00 - [92] - Quote Best argument is that..... amar sucks how bout you just spec into everysingle thing you want then get your scout. Idk where the f you finding these stats ( been searching for hours ) but unless you link me there ammar scout should just be on fire. ___________killing tanks since 1989______ Hershal noooooooo :( ( walking dead
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 937	Posted - 2014.01.21 14:22:00 - [93] - Quote Hmm...I think they should possibly buff this bonus until they can give the Amarr Scouts some specific skill although leave the dropsuit with some actual stamina focus. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 20	Posted - 2014.01.21 15:17:00 - [94] - Quote Just a question - Has the 5% max stamina and stamina regen from the Biotic Upgrades skill been factored in to all of these calculations? "Shine bright like a diamond"
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5738	Posted - 2014.01.21 15:42:00 - [95] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Just a question - Has the 5% max stamina and stamina regen from the Biotic Upgrades skill been factored in to all of these calculations? No, though feel free to add that 5% to all values listed, it does not change much. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Onesimus Tarsus 891	Posted - 2014.01.21 17:36:00 - [96] - Quote boba's fetta wrote: stamina doesnt matter much if they see you.. just saying. ... and if they can guess two or three bullets into you for the kill, not even cloaking matters. I don't date magnets, but it's difficult to deny the attraction.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 537	Posted - 2014.01.21 17:54:00 - [97] - Quote Alright my counter argument. The reasoning for the amarr scout getting only a 25% increase to regen and stamina is because it ties in line with the same bonus multipliers as the other bonuses. The reasoning behind only 25% instead of 50/100% is because the balance lies in the fact CCP wants to ensure you still need to equip a card reg to really capitalize on that bonus. Same with all other scouts or racials for that matter. Minmitar - 25% bonus to hacking. Equates to 2 seconds less of hacking, not all that useful. With a cpx codebreaker 7 seconds less of hacking. Caldari - Precision enhancement gives you the option to see mediums but not scouts. Equip precision mod, you get to see scouts Galentte - Damp bonus enhancement keeps you safe from most scanners, but not prototype and not gal scanners. Amarr - Gives you longer run times and increased regen, adding a cpx card reg gives you the option to never stop running. Now if you gave the Amarr a 50% or 100% bonus to regen and stamina they would never have to slip in GREEN pills. It would effectively be a waste to the suit. Which I think is the main reasoning for the way the bonus is balanced. Also, it is important to balance from the top down. That measly hp bonus actually equates to 87 more hitpoints when skilled up. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5748	Posted - 2014.01.21 17:58:00 - [98] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. The reasoning for the amarr scout getting only a 25% increase to regen and stamina is because it ties in line with the same bonus multipliers as the other bonuses. The reasoning behind only 25% instead of 50/100% is because the balance lies in the fact CCP wants to ensure you still need to equip a card reg to really capitalize on that bonus. Same with all other scouts or racials for that matter. Minmitar - 25% bonus to hacking. Equates to 2 seconds less of hacking, not all that useful. With a cpx codebreaker 7 seconds less of hacking. Caldari - Precision enhancement gives you the option to see mediums but not scouts. Equip precision mod, you get to see scouts Galentte - Damp bonus enhancement keeps you safe from most scanners, but not prototype and not gal scanners. Amarr - Gives you longer run times and increased regen, adding a cpx card reg gives you the option to never stop running. Now if you gave the Amarr a 50% or 100% bonus to regen and stamina they would never have to slip in GREEN pills. It would effectively be a waste to the suit. Which I think is the main reasoning for the way the bonus is balanced. Also, it is important to balance from the top down. That measly hp bonus actually equates to 87 more hitpoints when skilled up. As stated, never needing to slip in a green pill saves you one low slot. As compared to other bonuses like say the Gallente's profile dampening, you still need to slip in more profile dampening but the amount you need to is one less than everyone else, so that saves you one low slot. However, because not needing to slip a green pill at all saves you SP that is why I am backing down to 50% at level 5. And actually your math is wrong, the measly 30 extra hit points actually equates to 37.5 more hitpoints when Armor and Shield Upgrades are maxed compared to the Gal and Cal scouts with those skills maxed as well. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 537	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:07:00 - [99] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. The reasoning for the amarr scout getting only a 25% increase to regen and stamina is because it ties in line with the same bonus multipliers as the other bonuses. The reasoning behind only 25% instead of 50/100% is because the balance lies in the fact CCP wants to ensure you still need to equip a card reg to really capitalize on that bonus. Same with all other scouts or racials for that matter. Minmitar - 25% bonus to hacking. Equates to 2 seconds less of hacking, not all that useful. With a cpx codebreaker 7 seconds less of hacking. Caldari - Precision enhancement gives you the option to see mediums but not scouts. Equip precision mod, you get to see scouts Galentte - Damp bonus enhancement keeps you safe from most scanners, but not prototype and not gal scanners. Amarr - Gives you longer run times and increased regen, adding a cpx card reg gives you the option to never stop running. Now if you gave the Amarr a 50% or 100% bonus to regen and stamina they would never have to slip in GREEN pills. It would effectively be a waste to the suit. Which I think is the main reasoning for the way the bonus is balanced. Also, it is important to balance from the top down. That measly hp bonus actually equates to 87 more hitpoints when skilled up. As stated, never needing to slip in a green pill saves you one low slot. As compared to other bonuses like say the Gallente's profile dampening, you still need to slip in more profile dampening but the amount you need to is one less than everyone else, so that saves you one low slot. However, because not needing to slip a green pill at all saves you SP that is why I am backing down to 50% at level 5. And actually your math is wrong, the measly 30 extra hit points actually equates to 37.5 more hitpoints when Armor and Shield Upgrades are maxed compared to the Gal and Cal scouts with those skills maxed as well. EDIT: And also the Gallente profile bonus does get you under proto scanners without needing anything else, just not Gal proto scanners. But that is besides the point. Yes but the idea is to balance bonus vs bonus. I understand what you mean when you say that other suits have to fit additional slots to equate the same effective bonus. At 50% more stamina and regen without any greens the amarr will never NEED to fit a green. While all other scouts will have to, at some point need to fit another mod of the same bonus type to be effective. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5750	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:13:00 - [100] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. The reasoning for the amarr scout getting only a 25% increase to regen and stamina is because it ties in line with the same bonus multipliers as the other bonuses. The reasoning behind only 25% instead of 50/100% is because the balance lies in the fact CCP wants to ensure you still need to equip a card reg to really capitalize on that bonus. Same with all other scouts or racials for that matter. Minmitar - 25% bonus to hacking. Equates to 2 seconds less of hacking, not all that useful. With a cpx codebreaker 7 seconds less of hacking. Caldari - Precision enhancement gives you the option to see mediums but not scouts. Equip precision mod, you get to see scouts Galentte - Damp bonus enhancement keeps you safe from most scanners, but not prototype and not gal scanners. Amarr - Gives you longer run times and increased regen, adding a cpx card reg gives you the option to never stop running. Now if you gave the Amarr a 50% or 100% bonus to regen and stamina they would never have to slip in GREEN pills. It would effectively be a waste to the suit. Which I think is the main reasoning for the way the bonus is balanced. Also, it is important to balance from the top down. That measly hp bonus actually equates to 87 more hitpoints when skilled up. As stated, never needing to slip in a green pill saves you one low slot. As compared to other bonuses like say the Gallente's profile dampening, you still need to slip in more profile dampening but the amount you need to is one less than everyone else, so that saves you one low slot. However, because not needing to slip a green pill at all saves you SP that is why I am backing down to 50% at level 5. And actually your math is wrong, the measly 30 extra hit points actually equates to 37.5 more hitpoints when Armor and Shield Upgrades are maxed compared to the Gal and Cal scouts with those skills maxed as well. EDIT: And also the Gallente profile bonus does get you under proto scanners without needing anything else, just not Gal proto scanners. But that is besides the point. Yes but the idea is to balance bonus vs bonus. I understand what you mean when you say that other suits have to fit additional slots to equate the same effective bonus. But a bonus to the suit doesn't incur stack penalties. At 50% more stamina and regen without any greens the amarr will never NEED to fit a green. While all other scouts will have to, at some point need to fit another mod of the same bonus type to be effective. If an Amarr suit will never need to fit a green, then why are you talking stacking penalties? Also the no stacking penalty thing also applies to every other racial bonus as well. And my point stands, all the bonus would do by not needing to fit a green is free up one low slot. This is equivalent to every other scout also freeing up one low slot with their bonus, even if they still need to fit more. Let me explain: The subjects here will be the Scout gk.0 and Scout ak.0 since they have the same slot layout. The ak.0 doesn't need to fit a green, still has all 4 lows The gk.0 needs to fit a green, has 3 lows left The ak.0 needs to apply 2 complex profile dampeners to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left The gk.0 needs to apply 1 complex profile dampener to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left See what I'm getting at? Simply saying "never needing to fit a green" isn't a valid enough argument without providing the context. However, a good counter argument would be what Son-Of A-Gun stated, which is that never fitting a green means you can save SP. That is why my opinion is now changed from 20% per level to 10% per level and with another small secondary bonus like the rest of the scouts. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5751	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:17:00 - [101] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: EDIT: Gal wont be immune to the focused scanner (14dB) until they fit damps. Regardless of who is running the focused. General rule of thumb when talking about proto scanners (plural) is all proto scanners except the Duvolle Focused, as they are all 28 dB. The Duvolle Focused is just one scanner (singular). However, the point still holds that however many profile dampeners the other scouts need to fit to avoid the Duvolle Focused, the Gal scout will need one less. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 537	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:21:00 - [102] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: EDIT: Gal wont be immune to the focused scanner (14dB) until they fit damps. Regardless of who is running the focused. General rule of thumb when talking about proto scanners (plural) is all proto scanners except the Duvolle Focused, as they are all 28 dB. The Duvolle Focused is just one scanner (singular). However, the point still holds that however many profile dampeners the other scouts need to fit to avoid the Duvolle Focused, the Gal scout will need one less. I understand that. But you haven't debated the argument of needing to still fit card regs on an Amarr scout at 50%. They will never need to fit them. While all other scouts will still need to fit a mod for their bonus to be effective. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5751	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:25:00 - [103] - Quote Also since I double posted and one post got left behind on the last page, just wanting to make sure that you see that one as well. It covers that argument. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12424	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:10:00 - [104] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either to the bonus outside of reducing the number of modules not fit. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5753	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:12:00 - [105] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either. It does, because the current 5% per level puts the Amarr scout at about 29 seconds of sprint, which isn't quite the same as "infinite sprint" like the other scouts would have in the detailed math of my original post to this thread. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3279	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:13:00 - [106] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either to the bonus outside of reducing the number of modules not fit. That's... kind of a large value actually. Join my cult.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1004	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:15:00 - [107] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either to the bonus outside of reducing the number of modules not fit. When does an additional n% have no value? Jump much? {:)}{3GÇó>
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 541	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:36:00 - [108] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. snip snip snip If an Amarr suit will never need to fit a green, then why are you talking stacking penalties? Also the no stacking penalty thing also applies to every other racial bonus as well. And my point stands, all the bonus would do by not needing to fit a green is free up one low slot. This is equivalent to every other scout also freeing up one low slot with their bonus, even if they still need to fit more. Let me explain: The subjects here will be the Scout gk.0 and Scout ak.0 since they have the same slot layout. The ak.0 doesn't need to fit a green, still has all 4 lows The gk.0 needs to fit a green, has 3 lows left The ak.0 needs to apply 2 complex profile dampeners to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left The gk.0 needs to apply 1 complex profile dampener to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left See what I'm getting at? Simply saying "never needing to fit a green" isn't a valid enough argument without providing the context. However, a good counter argument would be what Son-Of A-Gun stated, which is that never fitting a green means you can save SP. That is why my opinion is now changed from 20% per level to 10% per level and with another small secondary bonus like the rest of the scouts. My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 316	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:38:00 - [109] - Quote The "saving" SP excuse is invalid. This is "core" passive skills EVERYBODY should have level 5 once you got 10 million SP...... Even me on my Logi have it level 5.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12426	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:42:00 - [110] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either. It does, because the current 5% per level puts the Amarr scout at about 29 seconds of sprint, which isn't quite the same as "infinite sprint" like the other scouts would have in the detailed math of my original post to this thread. /me plugs in an additional 5% per level. for a total of 50% at lvl 5 Marathon Fits (regulators) Ak. 7.29 m/s 1767.90 meters covered a cycle Mk. 7.81 m/s 1091.68 meters covered a cycle Gk. 7.53 m/s 1102.09 meters covered a cycle Ck. 7.49 m/s 816 meters covered a cycle Nekkid (no bonus) Ak. 6.93 m/s 194 meters covered a cycle Mk. 7.40 m/s 200 meters covered a cycle Gk. 7.08 m/s 188 meters covered a cycle Ck. 7.08 m/s 188 meters covered a cycle Bonused Nekkid Ak. 6.93 m/s 292.3 meters covered a cycle Dash Fits (Kin kats) Ak. 22.39 m/s 906 meters covered a cycle Mk. 21.25 m/s 573 meters covered a cycle Gk. 22.66 m/s 604 meters covered a cycle Ck. 15.58 m/s 415 meters covered a cycle CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Mordecai Sanguine What The French 316	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:49:00 - [111] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. snip snip snip If an Amarr suit will never need to fit a green, then why are you talking stacking penalties? Also the no stacking penalty thing also applies to every other racial bonus as well. And my point stands, all the bonus would do by not needing to fit a green is free up one low slot. This is equivalent to every other scout also freeing up one low slot with their bonus, even if they still need to fit more. Let me explain: The subjects here will be the Scout gk.0 and Scout ak.0 since they have the same slot layout. The ak.0 doesn't need to fit a green, still has all 4 lows The gk.0 needs to fit a green, has 3 lows left The ak.0 needs to apply 2 complex profile dampeners to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left The gk.0 needs to apply 1 complex profile dampener to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left See what I'm getting at? Simply saying "never needing to fit a green" isn't a valid enough argument without providing the context. However, a good counter argument would be what Son-Of A-Gun stated, which is that never fitting a green means you can save SP. That is why my opinion is now changed from 20% per level to 10% per level and with another small secondary bonus like the rest of the scouts. My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Dude this is so What Da'Hell....... Agains this is an opinion from someone that's NEVER going to use Amarr Scout...... You forgot one ESSENTIEL thing : 2 sec of hacks means 2 sec without possibility to MOVE SHOOT SEE THE ENNEMY AND everybody know you're here. 2 sec of run is....well nothing. Amarr Scout is the slowest same than assault. Dodging is not possible for him. He CAN'T run away of battle. You're trying to explain how stamina is useful on YOUR SUIT which is damn fast. Here we have a SLOOOOW suit everything you think you can do with stamina is IMPOSSIBLE for Amarr. Escape a fight ? NO. Dodge bullets ? NO. Go left then fast go left around a corner ? NO. And finally it's the cheaper Mod and we don't even hve one basic..... Any suits wants the Level 5 of Amarr ? Fit a Basic Cardiac Reg : SP cost : 40.000 PG : 4 CPU 5 Now let see if Amarr wants others suits onus level 5 : Minmatarr : Codebreaker Complex : SP cost : A Million. 11 PG Damager Complex : SP cost : 700.000 SP. Well you wanted the SP "excuse" well it's saving 40.000SP against almost 2 Million. Funny isn't how "argument" can be reversed ?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:50:00 - [112] - Quote IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 100	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:52:00 - [113] - Quote stamina is one of the best items a scout can have it allows for jumping to nova knife a red dot it allows you to jump over all the little crap others have to go around it allows you to get up on that hilltop to snipe right off the bat its a great bonus for uplink running like I said before stamina can be the difference between life and death for the scout Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12427	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:54:00 - [114] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I will also state it again Modules and Bonuses and Innate stats of the suit are inseparable. Prove me wrong by giving the amarr bonus to the caldari. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:55:00 - [115] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 100	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:55:00 - [116] - Quote the amarr scout is the slowest but has 4 low slot to fit as you desire Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 100	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:56:00 - [117] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. the minmatar scout only has 3 low slots Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:00:00 - [118] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:01:00 - [119] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. the minmatar scout only has 3 low slots And 3 highs, while Amarr has 2 highs. Same number of slots. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Greasepalms Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 425	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:01:00 - [120] - Quote the bonus definitely looks lackluster but if they buff it they have to be careful not to make the amarr scout a bunnyhopping suit. Lots of people are mentioning running distance but don't forget stamina is used for hopping as well.

DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 102	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:01:00 - [121] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12430	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:02:00 - [122] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Moduled and Bonused Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Moduled and Bonused Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Nekked Stealth Tied Sensors Tied Bonused Nekkid Stealth Gallente 1st Amarr Caldari Minmatar 2nd Sensors Caldari 1st Amarr Gallente Minmatar 2nd CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 102	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:02:00 - [123] - Quote stamina is more important on a scout then most of you will ever know Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 193	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [124] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3065	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [125] - Quote Regulators > Kincats Speed is moot if you're a smart scout. The ability to maintain motion is a much better survival tool. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [126] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Modules and Bonuses and Innate stats of the suit are inseparable. Prove me wrong by giving the amarr bonus to the caldari. Selection of the bonus type may be inseparable, but the values of the bonus type are most definitely not. And because of this it doesn't prove any point by giving the Caldari the Amarr bonus, as I agree the bonus type doesn't reflect it properly. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Onesimus Tarsus 896	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:04:00 - [127] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: I think the amarr, as their ethos goes, is relentless assault, grinding all beneath the boot type thing so with that stamina with one cardiac regulator means that you always remain getting in and out of combat at a steady unrelenting pace, never faltering, never giving the enemy one inch. Rp: Your faith gives you the strength to never yield. I'm not sure though, just trying to make sense of it. A bonus that only affects lore is really not very bonus-y in a firefight. I don't date magnets, but it's difficult to deny the attraction.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:04:00 - [128] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Have any reasoning behind this? Or just some arbitrary system set up by yourself? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3065	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:05:00 - [129] - Quote Low slot/high slot count Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:06:00 - [130] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:08:00 - [131] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3066	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:10:00 - [132] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd rather take a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. But this is more for hunting scouts than for actual scouting. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior (being sneaky) than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12430	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:10:00 - [133] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Have any reasoning behind this? Or just some arbitrary system set up by yourself? 1 Scan Profile, Sig Rad, Scan Range are equal on across ALL scout suits. 2 When moduled and no bonuses profile damps will favor those with the most low slots, thus caldari will rank worst, minmatar mid grade and gallente and amarr ranking first 2.a bonus thrown in gallente pulls ahead due to natural suit properties because of the bonus. 3. Inversely Scan range or profiling are invertedly opposite favoring high slots. with no bonuses caldari are alone superior in this, minmatar being mid grade and amarr and gallente scoring the worst points. 3a since gallente have also range amplification bonus the caldari will still pull ahead due to able to fit one more module than the gallente can in range. One does not need math to figure this out. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 104	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:12:00 - [134] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. it seems most people are stuck on the total nuber of stamina instead of the most important part of the bonus the stamina regen Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:12:00 - [135] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd ratke a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. But most the combatants on the battlefield aren't going to be scouts. You can scan virtually every non-scout with just one high slot, so how far out you can scan these becomes much more important.. And with scouts and cloaks, it doesn't matter much if you can passively scan them if you don't see them until they're already in close. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
mollerz Minja Scouts 2055	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:13:00 - [136] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:13:00 - [137] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. it seems most people are stuck on the total nuber of stamina instead of the most important part of the bonus the stamina regen Nope, covered that in the OP too. Read it and get back to me. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:14:00 - [138] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? Do you run this? How often do you? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 104	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:15:00 - [139] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. ^ the honest truth Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 545	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:15:00 - [140] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. Facepalm. I am not talking about single mod replacements. I already said I agree with the fact its not a "fair" mod/slots wise. But its the sum of the parts that makes it a good/fair bonus. If you actually take your example to completion you would see the minmitar is not any better. The minmitar has one less low slot and less CPU/PG, which HAS to be factored into the equation. You cant just cherry pick the individual stats you want and supplant all the rest. With 50% bonus an amarr scout could fit 1 cGREEN and 2 cREDS and would be nigh impossible to catch. It could also outrun every scout suit in the game for days. You have to think at the highest level. Not the basic mod to mod variations. The amarr scout could actually run faster and farther than every scout in the game with its current bonuses and you want to quadruple/double that? Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3279	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:16:00 - [141] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. ... There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower. Join my cult.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:17:00 - [142] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Facepalm. I am not talking about single mod replacements. I already said I agree with the fact its not a "fair" mod/slots wise. But its the sum of the parts that makes it a good/fair bonus. If you actually take your example to completion you would see the minmitar is not any better. The minmitar has one less low slot and less CPU/PG, which HAS to be factored into the equation. You cant just cherry pick the individual stats you want and supplant all the rest. With 50% bonus an amarr scout could fit 1 cGREEN and 2 cREDS and would be nigh impossible to catch. It could also outrun every scout suit in the game for days. You have to think at the highest level. Not the basic mod to mod variations. The amarr scout could actually run faster and farther than every scout in the game with its current bonuses and you want to quadruple/double that? Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. But the Minmatar has one more high slot than the Amarr, so it balances out. If you don't believe so, I gave the same example with a scout gk.0 which has the same slot layout as the Amarr and it was the same results - they could both do the same thing except Gallente could run longer and faster. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3066	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:17:00 - [143] - Quote Practical applications of stamina and paper applications of stamina are much different and you really have to realize that. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12433	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:19:00 - [144] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd ratke a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. But most the combatants on the battlefield aren't going to be scouts. You can scan virtually every non-scout with just one high slot, so how far out you can scan these becomes much more important.. And with scouts and cloaks, it doesn't matter much if you can passively scan them if you don't see them until they're already in close. You mean no high slots, provided they don't stealth up either. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 122	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:19:00 - [145] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. Why would you do any of that, why would you play outside of a suit's role and away from it's bonus, what do you intend to do with a role if you don't use it's perks? It sounds to me you don't like the Amarr bonus cause it doesn't suit your playstyle preference, you keep saying it's UP, you keep saying it's bonus is weaker than the others, but at this point you're just ignoring the advantages of the A-Scout. If you don't enjoy the thought of combat, pick a Gal scout, you wanna one-two-punch a heavy, pick the Min, you want to help the team find tagets, pick the Cal, if you want to be alive to do any of these thing, pick the Amarr. Your argument relies on the thought that all of the scouts would be using a card.reg, the only one that would even consider the thought of using a slot for that will be a M-Scout, all the scouts will have a define playstyle picked by their role bonuses and suit fittings, if you choose to ignore those clear advantages cause you want to prove you can do something better than an other suit don't be surprise when you fall short.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12433	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:20:00 - [146] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Practical applications of stamina and paper applications of stamina are much different and you really have to realize that. Right, I cannot tell you how many times I have died in this shinobi event because I ran out of moose juice at worst time. Roles the Amarr Scout suit will fulfill Recon Sniper Scout Sniper Skirmisher EOD Demolitions Skirmisher Perimeter Defense Intercept CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 122	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:21:00 - [147] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. ... There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower. Actually CCP said that's a possibility, they even said they would rather nerf everyone else's speed over giving Scouts more speed.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3067	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [148] - Quote lol moose juice. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
mollerz Minja Scouts 2057	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [149] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? No. I am saying that every minja can only run one, but also, that they HAVE to run one. There are situations where you'd value a red jar over a green jar, of course. No one would run 2 green jars because they couldn't, but I would absolutely love to have the stamina it bestowed. I know the critical advantages that comes of it. I don't need to go over the limits of the math of the bonus, because I know any stamina over 500 is the sweet spot that covers every map objective no matter where you are. I'd know that with that regen rate and the extra EHP I;d be ready to rock and roll upon arrival as opposed to making it to a staging area to recover and surveil, potentially losing precious initiative. You going back to numbers completely negates the advantages only a skilled scout would see beyond the numbers. even 2 seconds more sprint equates to a huge advantage for a scout. For you to not know this, tells me you don't run scout enough. Or you don't push the limits of the suit if you do, and probably should just cave and take up the suit that matches the role you want to play because amarr scout definitely is not the role for you. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [150] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:26:00 - [151] - Quote I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:26:00 - [152] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Facepalm. I am not talking about single mod replacements. I already said I agree with the fact its not a "fair" mod/slots wise. But its the sum of the parts that makes it a good/fair bonus. If you actually take your example to completion you would see the minmitar is not any better. The minmitar has one less low slot and less CPU/PG, which HAS to be factored into the equation. You cant just cherry pick the individual stats you want and supplant all the rest. With 50% bonus an amarr scout could fit 1 cGREEN and 2 cREDS and would be nigh impossible to catch. It could also outrun every scout suit in the game for days. You have to think at the highest level. Not the basic mod to mod variations. The amarr scout could actually run faster and farther than every scout in the game with its current bonuses and you want to quadruple/double that? Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. But the Minmatar has one more high slot than the Amarr, so it balances out. If you don't believe so, I gave the same example with a scout gk.0 which has the same slot layout as the Amarr and it was the same results - they could both do the same thing except Gallente could run longer and faster. No it doesn't balance out. High slots have nothing to do with movement/biotics. An A-scout can run faster and farther than any minmintar scout. Again this is something IWS has been stating, synergy of the suit is important. How about this, I agree with your 20% bonus to stamina if you take away a low slot and make it a high slot. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:27:00 - [153] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? No. I am saying that every minja can only run one, but also, that they HAVE to run one. There are situations where you'd value a red jar over a green jar, of course. No one would run 2 green jars because they couldn't, but I would absolutely love to have the stamina it bestowed. I know the critical advantages that comes of it. I don't need to go over the limits of the math of the bonus, because I know any stamina over 500 is the sweet spot that covers every map objective no matter where you are. I'd know that with that regen rate and the extra EHP I;d be ready to rock and roll upon arrival as opposed to making it to a staging area to recover and surveil, potentially losing precious initiative. You going back to numbers completely negates the advantages only a skilled scout would see beyond the numbers. even 2 seconds more sprint equates to a huge advantage for a scout. For you to not know this, tells me you don't run scout enough. Or you don't push the limits of the suit if you do, and probably should just cave and take up the suit that matches the role you want to play because amarr scout definitely is not the role for you. But what about the Scout gk.0? Same slot layout, same problem ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:28:00 - [154] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? Going to quote myself here since everyone is now complaining that it is unfair to the Minmatar scout because it only gets 3 lows, but here is something to chew on for the Gallente scout with the same slot layout. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:29:00 - [155] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? And you want to double that with the amarr who has the same low slot count with only slightly lower sprint speed? 80 seconds of sprinting at 10m/s is a life time. The minimtar can only do that for 20 seconds. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:30:00 - [156] - Quote I sincerely hope CCP has more logic and reasoning than all you people who simply say "It looks good because I run scout and can look at things practically." I run proto scouts too, you know ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12434	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:31:00 - [157] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I sincerely hope CCP has more logic and reasoning than all you people who simply say "It looks good because I run scout and can look at things practically." I run proto scouts too, you know They do have more logic. Why do you think I am arguing with you over how silly this looks? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:32:00 - [158] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? And you want to double that with the amarr who has the same low slot count with only slightly lower sprint speed? 80 seconds of sprinting at 10m/s is a life time. The minimtar can only do that for 20 seconds. The Amarr scout would not be able to sprint as fast, and the Gal scout would be able to do all of this while avoiding proto scanners (save the Focused and Gal logis). The Amarr scout would only be able to do this if he is ok with getting scanned by proto scanners, which is hardly a good trade-off considering there isn't much practical use of sprinting 164 seconds in Dust opposed to 82. Both are essentially "infinite." ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3067	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:32:00 - [159] - Quote The way you talk to us is like telling your car mechanic he's wrong because you looked at the instruction manual when he has experience being a mechanic. Your attitude is simply irritating and it discourages anyone from wanting to help you. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12434	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:32:00 - [160] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? Going to quote myself here since everyone is now complaining that it is unfair to the Minmatar scout because it only gets 3 lows, but here is something to chew on for the Gallente scout with the same slot layout. Based on initial information Gallente will be the BEST cloaker suit, PERIOD. Amarr would be nearly third worst despite the same slot layout CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:33:00 - [161] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I sincerely hope CCP has more logic and reasoning than all you people who simply say "It looks good because I run scout and can look at things practically." I run proto scouts too, you know They do have more logic. Why do you think I am arguing with you over how silly this looks? Because all your arguments are based on just that, looks opposed to reason. I am very thankful you do not work for CCP. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:34:00 - [162] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? And you want to double that with the amarr who has the same low slot count with only slightly lower sprint speed? 80 seconds of sprinting at 10m/s is a life time. The minimtar can only do that for 20 seconds. The Amarr scout would not be able to sprint as fast, and the Gal scout would be able to do all of this while avoiding proto scanners (save the Focused and Gal logis). The Amarr scout would only be able to do this if he is ok with getting scanned by proto scanners, which is hardly a good trade-off considering there isn't much practical use of sprinting 164 seconds in Dust opposed to 82. Both are essentially "infinite." Quoting for new page. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:34:00 - [163] - Quote Lets compromise. 10% per level. That's it. Is that too much IWS and igniteable aura? GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
mollerz Minja Scouts 2057	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:35:00 - [164] - Quote no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:35:00 - [165] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The way you talk to us is like telling your car mechanic he's wrong because you looked at the instruction manual when he has experience being a mechanic. Your attitude is simply irritating and it discourages anyone from wanting to help you. Poor analogy is poor analogy. But it's ok, I enjoy reading common fallacies. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:37:00 - [166] - Quote mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3067	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:38:00 - [167] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The way you talk to us is like telling your car mechanic he's wrong because you looked at the instruction manual when he has experience being a mechanic. Your attitude is simply irritating and it discourages anyone from wanting to help you. Poor analogy is poor analogy. But it's ok, I enjoy reading common fallacies. Lol You're well liked a person I can tell. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:39:00 - [168] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? And you want to double that with the amarr who has the same low slot count with only slightly lower sprint speed? 80 seconds of sprinting at 10m/s is a life time. The minimtar can only do that for 20 seconds. The Amarr scout would not be able to sprint as fast, and the Gal scout would be able to do all of this while avoiding proto scanners (save the Focused and Gal logis). The Amarr scout would only be able to do this if he is ok with getting scanned by proto scanners, which is hardly a good trade-off considering there isn't much practical use of sprinting 164 seconds in Dust opposed to 82. Both are essentially "infinite." The amarr scouts sprint would be nearly 10m/s and could do it for a full 80 seconds. If the A-scout got scanned the dude wouldn't be able to catch him and the A-scout would be looooong gone by the time they got there. The A-scout would only need to fit a single damp to avoid a non-gal pro scan and would still be able to outrun a gal. Slot layout matters, base stats matter, the whole package matters when you look at balancing the role bonus. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:39:00 - [169] - Quote Stop throwing ** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? Edit: if you want it to stay at 5%.. Can we ask for a secondary bonus then? GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4** \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5773	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:40:00 - [170] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The way you talk to us is like telling your car mechanic he's wrong because you looked at the instruction manual when he has experience being a mechanic. Your attitude is simply irritating and it discourages anyone from wanting to help you. Poor analogy is poor analogy. But it's ok, I enjoy reading common fallacies. Lol You're well liked a person I can tell. Cyrius, at least IWS and Igniteable have been using actual data to back up their claims. All you have used in your counter arguments is "I am proto scout I am right." ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:41:00 - [171] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. What about a bonus to stamina consumption of jumping? 5% /level PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:42:00 - [172] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing ** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. I see. Then may we ask for a secondary bonus? GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4** \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
mollerz Minja Scouts 2058	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:43:00 - [173] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! name calling? lolololol okay whatever. my apologies. So you aren't a scout tourist? You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6040	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:43:00 - [174] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. Fair given that 25% profile dampening, and 25% faster hack speeds with no stacking penalties are massive bonuses. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:44:00 - [175] - Quote Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. I see. Then may we ask for a secondary bonus? What about a bonus to stamina consumption of jumping? 5% /level PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3069	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:44:00 - [176] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? With max skills and one complex regulator you're running for nearly 75 seconds with a recharge of around 7 seconds. that's kind of ridiculous. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5773	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:44:00 - [177] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
mollerz Minja Scouts 2058	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:45:00 - [178] - Quote I was wondering- with lv 5 skills- Does this fit work for ak.0? 2xC C Regs 2xC Kin Cats 2xC Extenders Viziam SCR Viziam SCP You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5773	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:45:00 - [179] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! name calling? lolololol okay whatever. my apologies. So you aren't a scout tourist? I've been scouting since Chromosome and have an alt with Scout gk.0 maxed out that I have had since the beginning of Uprising. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 546	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:45:00 - [180] - Quote True Adamance wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. Fair given that 25% profile dampening, and 25% faster hack speeds with no stacking penalties are massive bonuses. Those are not massive, 2 seconds faster hack and ability to hide against one more meta level of scanner. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube

True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6041	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:46:00 - [181] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! name calling? lolololol okay whatever. my apologies. So you aren't a scout tourist? I don't think Aero is even speccing scout..... but you know how Aero and most of PIE Inc have felt about suit frames. You cannot call us scouts because CCP took 6 ******* months to release our racial variant. I know I am speccing scout to complement my pilot suit theme. Even so I fail to see how you can go on and on about the other bonuses being fair and gifting significant boons to scout based aspects, but you cannot bring yourself to accept that the Amarr scout could indeed be the biotics scout and have superior Stamina and regen? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
mollerz Minja Scouts 2058	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 - [182] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I've been scouting since Chromosome and have an alt with Scout gk.0 maxed out that I have had since the beginning of Uprising. Yet you do not understand the value of the current stamina bonus. hmm... You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 126	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 - [183] - Quote Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath.
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 - [184] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing ** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. I see. Then may we ask for a secondary bonus? What about a bonus to stamina consumption of jumping? 5% /level I'm assuming you mean a reduction to stamina consumption of jumping. Not sure about that. Jumping isn't too reliable with AA how it is. It works from time to time but it isn't reliable. I was thinking more of a direct combat bonus. I personally prefer scrambler pistol bonuses But I could settle on jumping I guess. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4** \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Jen Gelfling Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:50:00 - [185] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. ... There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower. Actually CCP said that's a possibility, they even said they would rather nerf everyone else's speed over giving Scouts more speed. Wouldn't be the first time they adjusted suit speed I guess. I kinda thought suit speed changes would already be in the works for this. If there's an overlap in the speed of medium suits (Logi/Assault), then it makes sense because those suits are the same mass/size/tier. An overlap in the speed of an assault and a scout suit doesn't really make sense though.
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6041	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:50:00 - [186] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I've been scouting since Chromosome and have an alt with Scout gk.0 maxed out that I have had since the beginning of Uprising. Yet you do not understand the value of the current stamina bonus. hmm... Of course we do which is why we want one that is balanced against a 25% faster hacking speed, being 25% harder to detect, and being able to detect people 25% more easily, amongst the other bonuses these other scout suits receive. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6041	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:52:00 - [187] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:52:00 - [188] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. Oh of course. EHP is the greatest. However people were arguing saying stamina was more important than speed. Which I don't agree with. And to your scenario, that is impossible because in PC you die very fast. Rarely do you actually have to stop and regen stamina in combat. Even without running cardiacs. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3070	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:54:00 - [189] - Quote Let's all keep in mind the Amarr are long distance fighters. Giving them the ability to dominate in short range innately over other suits (minmatar and gallente) is not the way to go for balance sake. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:58:00 - [190] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Let's all keep in mind the Amarr are long distance fighters. Giving them the ability to dominate in short range innately over other suits (minmatar and gallente) is not the way to go for balance sake. Stamina would not be dominating innately in cqc. Speed(strafe and sprint) and EHP are what cqc domination is. Currently amarr have with skills maxed, about 40-50 more hp right? So it would win in the hp department but no speed. I believe the scouts are actually pretty well balanced for cqc fighting against each other GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY

Nikea Nei Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 70	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:59:00 - [191] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development. Yeah. Even with a stamina bonus, the Amarr scout's speed gimp will make it the worst scout. Movement speed while strafing, etc. will have a larger impact on encounters than any other bonuses. Stamina doesn't mean the scout can completely avoid encounters, and a sniping role that wouldn't involve direct encounters is better served by the tank to absorb countersniping fire than stamina/profile.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3071	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:59:00 - [192] - Quote I meant the scrambler pistol bonus. XD Those things border on ridiculous as is. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 547	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:04:00 - [193] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. It wouldn't be the same as all other scouts as they have much lower base stats. Two complex card regs on other scouts besides gal would never happen as its just not effective and you use most of your slots. Try using a range amp on a minmitar build vs a gal build and you see a huge spike in effectiveness of range amps. Its the same idea. The truth is the cardiac regs will make a huge impact on the amarr scout while they will be marginal impacts on the other scouts because of: Lower base stats, no role bonus. A-scouts at max skills will have several skills that improve upon their innate high stamina skills that put it in a "league of their own" These bonuses will be stacking free. So it will add up much more quickly than if someone fit mods. You have: 5% stamina, recovery, sprint speed 10% increased effectiveness of card regs bonuses 25% increased racial bonus Amr scout with single complex Green 225 * 1.05 * 1.25 = 295 * 2.10 = 620 stamina pool 40 * 1.05 * 1.25 = 53 * 2.10 = 111 stamina recovery Gal scout (closest scenario / best case) with single complex Green 210 * 1.05 = 220.5 * 2.10 = 463 stamina pool 35 * 1.05 = 36.75 * 2.10 = 77 recovery You can see a huge difference in their stamina and regen and this is with a best case scenario. Now you want to double that bonus. You can see why that would be a bit OP. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 547	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:08:00 - [194] - Quote Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. I see. Then may we ask for a secondary bonus? What about a bonus to stamina consumption of jumping? 5% /level I'm assuming you mean a reduction to stamina consumption of jumping. Not sure about that. Jumping isn't too reliable with AA how it is. It works from time to time but it isn't reliable. I was thinking more of a direct combat bonus. I personally prefer scrambler pistol bonuses But I could settle on jumping I guess. Problem with combat bonuses is they directly impact the assault category. I was going more in the line of building on the stamina bonus and the first thing I could thing of that would likely kill a scout is having to jump a ledge. As that means no more stamina in most cases. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12439	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:10:00 - [195] - Quote Nikea Nei wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development. Yeah. Even with a stamina bonus, the Amarr scout's speed gimp will make it the worst scout. Movement speed while strafing, etc. will have a larger impact on encounters than any other bonuses. Stamina doesn't mean the scout can completely avoid encounters, and a sniping role that wouldn't involve direct encounters is better served by the tank to absorb counter sniping fire than stamina/profile. Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Melai For'Aiur Shining Flame Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:13:00 - [196] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Let's all keep in mind the Amarr are long distance fighters. Giving them the ability to dominate in short range innately over other suits (minmatar and gallente) is not the way to go for balance sake. Amarr are "typically" long-distance fighters. With no tank shooting at range, they're liable to get dropped by the guy with the rail rifle they're shooting at. Shotgun scouts are effective because of the high damage and difficulty tracking a target up-close (you have to turn more) when you're surprised. If they're sniping, then it doesn't matter what suit they're wearing, but one with more than 2 high slots and more tank would be much better. A scrambler bonus makes sense in being an alternative to that shotgun-style of play, and a Tactical Scrambler is "kinda" long-range... for a sidearm. I think a bonus to Scrambler rifles would be more OP (though acceptable to some would-be Amarr scouts I'm sure). The clip-size bonus isn't quite the imbalance as a flat damage or headshot bonus would be either. Alternatively, they could get a range bonus to sidearms or scrambler rifles/pistols. That's fitting with long-distance fighting.
Freya Tegley Algintal Core Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:24:00 - [197] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5775	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:25:00 - [198] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. It wouldn't be the same as all other scouts as they have much lower base stats. Two complex card regs on other scouts besides gal would never happen as its just not effective and you use most of your slots. The only better base stats the Amarr have is the 30 extra HP (37.5 at max skills) and the stamina/stamina regen. You then fit a the Gal scout like I told you, and the stamina and stamina regen benefits go away (you're looking at a 1 second difference in a full stamina recovery, check out first post). Plus Gal scout also has inherent 3 hp/s armor repair. Hardly much lower base stats. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12440	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:27:00 - [199] - Quote Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 477	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:29:00 - [200] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 Is there? Is it being raised or lowered? GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY

Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 127	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:29:00 - [201] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right? If you choose to be a less stealthy Gal Scout, no problem, that's what you want to do, don't take advantage of your bonuses, that's what you choose to do, it doesn't make your choice make your choice any more stupid or smart, it's how you feel you can make the most of what you have to fit your playstyle. But keep in mind what you forsake, playing outside of a suits bonus puts you at a disadvantage in the suit's respective role, if I want to be stealthy, I'll choose Gal and maximize it's for stealth, if I want to know where my enemy is at all time, I'll go with Cal and keep my distance, if I want sabotage my enemies defense, I'll pick Min and max my speed, I can decide to deviate from these roles if I please but I will always be at a disadvantage compared to those that specialize in a role I pick. If you want to tank in a Gal suit, that's fine, you could have just used an Amarr, if you want to use an Amarr instead of a Gal for stealth too, it's all good, just keep in mind that you will still be comparatively weaker to the suit you're trying to imitate.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3291	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:47:00 - [202] - Quote Absoliav wrote: True Adamance wrote: Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right? If you choose to be a less stealthy Gal Scout, no problem, that's what you want to do, don't take advantage of your bonuses, that's what you choose to do, it doesn't make your choice make your choice any more stupid or smart, it's how you feel you can make the most of what you have to fit your playstyle. But keep in mind what you forsake, playing outside of a suits bonus puts you at a disadvantage in the suit's respective role, if I want to be stealthy, I'll choose Gal and maximize it's for stealth, if I want to know where my enemy is at all time, I'll go with Cal and keep my distance, if I want sabotage my enemies defense, I'll pick Min and max my speed, I can decide to deviate from these roles if I please but I will always be at a disadvantage compared to those that specialize in a role I pick. If you want to tank in a Gal suit, that's fine, you could have just used an Amarr, if you want to use an Amarr instead of a Gal for stealth too, it's all good, just keep in mind that you will still be comparatively weaker to the suit you're trying to imitate. The point seems to have been that the Gallente is better than the Amarr at being a tank, because it would retain a speed advantage with only a slight hp difference, as well as having built-in reps and more stealth. Join my cult.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12442	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:49:00 - [203] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 Is there? Is it being raised or lowered? It will take longer to make kills with various weapons. That 30 HP may mean much more. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3292	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:54:00 - [204] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. Join my cult.
Arrach Sarkal Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:09:00 - [205] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here and go with his previous suggestion that a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. This sort of balance only works in the short term, at best. Neither skillpoints or ISK are zero-sum, both are inflationary. Tying balance of anything to the perceived value of either at a fixed point in time is doomed to failure. Or to put it another way, if you've been playing for any length of time, the value of X skillpoints to you today is less than the same number a month, six months or a year ago. Peg balance of a suit (or anything else) to that and the same will happen to that.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12445	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:11:00 - [206] - Quote Arguing skill points is almost irrelevant at times. Its like trying to balance by isk . CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5781	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:12:00 - [207] - Quote Arrach Sarkal wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here and go with his previous suggestion that a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. This sort of balance only works in the short term, at best. Neither skillpoints or ISK are zero-sum, both are inflationary. Tying balance of anything to the perceived value of either at a fixed point in time is doomed to failure. Or to put it another way, if you've been playing for any length of time, the value of X skillpoints to you today is less than the same number a month, six months or a year ago. Peg balance of a suit (or anything else) to that and the same will happen to that. Arrach, notice I stated adding a separate secondary bonus in addition to simply 10% per level, that way it can still remain on par. If this were the case, then the Amarr would still have to skill into cardiac regulation, negating the SP argument, but would still have an even value to its bonus. I definitely agree with your sentiment. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 105	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:15:00 - [208] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Lets compromise. 10% per level. That's it. Is that too much IWS and igniteable aura? I can agree with 10% but it has to be applied to stamina and not regen regen stays with the 5% Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 128	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:16:00 - [209] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. This is a very good point, and a good analogy to go with, at this time we should all just wait and see how things pan out.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12445	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:17:00 - [210] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. Arguably so is the new stamina bonuses and sensor bonuses on these new scout builds. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Aqua-Regia 634	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:24:00 - [211] - Quote Amarr dead last in FW next to Caldari (3rd). so Amarr don't have the resource to make a good dropsuit, so that why Amarr scoutsuit bonus need to suck. 1st place: Minmatar 2nd place: Gallente 3rd place: Caldari Last place: Amarr GòöGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòùGöÉGòôBPO / BPC Collector Gòû Gòó *S00NGäó*GòPGò¼GòºGò¬GòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòñGò¬GòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòíHELLOGòPGûá GòÜGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGò¥Dust 514 GòPGò¢§GòÆGòúAmarrGòáGòòGòÆGòúRNDGòáGòò
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 1004	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:08:00 - [212] - Quote Geez, you guys have been very busy in this thread, and from what I have read, and hopfully understood, things seem to have gotten confused some what. There seems to be far to many absolutist positioning/argument countering going on than actual exchanging of ideas and compromise. So, what have we so far? 1. 5% max/regen: The original bonus, is there anyone how thinks that this alone is a fair bonus? 2. 20% max/regen: this has been pretty much ruled out, and I believe that there are very few, if any, still arguing for it. 3. 10% max/regen: arguments are still raging against even this level of bonus as being to much. While it has been suggested by others that this in addition to a small other side bonus would be fair (I have suggested a small bonus to cloak field others a bonus to scrambler pistols or ferroscale plates etc.) 4. 10% max 5% regen: may this not be the compromise we need considering the heated debate still raging over "3."? This in addition to some other small side bonus? 5. 5% max/regen + other small bonus: is this the compromise that needs to be made? We need to strat working more together, to try to achieve a compromise that we can present to CCP. If we cannot then we are surly at the mercy of what ever CCP decide, for better or worse We need to start proposing ideas, and bickering less, and accept that though our ideas and points may feel entirely proper/valid rarely are they perfect. Learn to compromise. {:)}{3GÇó>
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6046	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:10:00 - [213] - Quote I like the 10% to both Stamina and Stamina Regen. Personally I feel like its a good balance between the initial complex Cardiac Regulator. However I feel like a bonus to the cloak would be a little unbalancing. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
GRIM GEAR The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 179	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:29:00 - [214] - Quote The strafing argument is null and void it all depends on who's controlling the toon for example; DJINN Soul can out strafe my Minmatar Scout suit with his Caldari assault suit. It's a bird! No it's a plane! Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5794	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:39:00 - [215] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: The strafing argument is null and void it all depends on who's controlling the toon for example; DJINN Soul can out strafe my Minmatar Scout suit with his Caldari assault suit. But if all other things equal, movement speed directly impacts strafe ability. If you put DJINN Soul in a Minmatar Scout, he'd be able to strafe better. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 482	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:45:00 - [216] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: The strafing argument is null and void it all depends on who's controlling the toon for example; DJINN Soul can out strafe my Minmatar Scout suit with his Caldari assault suit. But if all other things equal, movement speed directly impacts strafe ability. If you put DJINN Soul in a Minmatar Scout, he'd be able to strafe better. Likewise if you put him in a heavy, he won't be able to outstrafe anyone GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1690	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:46:00 - [217] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Geez, you guys have been very busy in this thread, and from what I have read, and hopfully understood, things seem to have gotten confused some what. There seems to be far to many absolutist positioning/argument countering going on than actual exchanging of ideas and compromise. So, what have we so far? 1. 5% max/regen: The original bonus, is there anyone how thinks that this alone is a fair bonus? 2. 20% max/regen: this has been pretty much ruled out, and I believe that there are very few, if any, still arguing for it. 3. 10% max/regen: arguments are still raging against even this level of bonus as being to much. While it has been suggested by others that this in addition to a small other side bonus would be fair (I have suggested a small bonus to cloak field others a bonus to scrambler pistols or ferroscale plates etc.) 4. 10% max 5% regen: may this not be the compromise we need considering the heated debate still raging over "3."? This in addition to some other small side bonus? 5. 5% max/regen + other small bonus: is this the compromise that needs to be made? We need to strat working more together, to try to achieve a compromise that we can present to CCP. If we cannot then we are surly at the mercy of what ever CCP decide, for better or worse. We need to start proposing ideas, and bickering less, and accept that though our ideas and points may feel entirely proper/valid rarely are they perfect. Learn to compromise. I choose #3 "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Beck Weathers Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 374	Posted - 2014.01.22 00:00:00 - [218] - Quote Obviously because Amarr just didnt put as much isk into their Scout R&D scout department as the other races
GRIM GEAR The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 179	Posted - 2014.01.22 00:05:00 - [219] - Quote Let's not forget that Amarr, Cal, and Gal scouts may be losing their sidearms whereas Minmatar might only have one equipment slot. I would also like to add that the new base stats on all of the scout suits are awesome, having a 35 DB base and another 4 metres passive scan is a massive gain for all of us. In all honesty if you took away all of the racial and scout bonuses I would gladly have any of the new scout suits over my existing suit. (really I would prefer Amarr it's a no brainer) <--- Joking I really would prefer any of the new suits base stats over what I have now. I hope we can all come to fair agreement and conclude on the Amarr scout bonus debacle. Then it is up to CCP whether or not they act on it is entirely up to them and the CPM. It's a bird! No it's a plane! Never mind it's just my shotgun in your face!
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6051	Posted - 2014.01.22 00:15:00 - [220] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: Let's not forget that Amarr, Cal, and Gal scouts may be losing their sidearms whereas Minmatar might only have one equipment slot. Whats the source for this info? I thought it was confirmed NO side arm trade and 2 Equipment slots. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7493	Posted - 2014.01.22 00:16:00 - [221] - Quote True Adamance wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: Let's not forget that Amarr, Cal, and Gal scouts may be losing their sidearms whereas Minmatar might only have one equipment slot. Whats the source for this info? I thought it was confirmed NO side arm trade and 2 Equipment slots. He probably hasn't heard the news that the losing a sidearm thing has sense been reconsidered and they are no longer pursuing that approach. "You're not even Aero, you're just Aero's friend."
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 269	Posted - 2014.03.12 22:08:00 - [222] - Quote bump (n+ëGèÖGÇ+GèÖ)n+ën+PpÇÄG£º~TEARS~G£ºpÇÅ 1.8 Laser rifle buff faq will be back to melt all ur sorry ass the good ol chromosomes days.


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