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DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 102	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:01:00 - [121] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12430	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:02:00 - [122] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Moduled and Bonused Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Moduled and Bonused Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Nekked Stealth Tied Sensors Tied Bonused Nekkid Stealth Gallente 1st Amarr Caldari Minmatar 2nd Sensors Caldari 1st Amarr Gallente Minmatar 2nd CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 102	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:02:00 - [123] - Quote stamina is more important on a scout then most of you will ever know Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 193	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [124] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3065	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [125] - Quote Regulators > Kincats Speed is moot if you're a smart scout. The ability to maintain motion is a much better survival tool. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [126] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Modules and Bonuses and Innate stats of the suit are inseparable. Prove me wrong by giving the amarr bonus to the caldari. Selection of the bonus type may be inseparable, but the values of the bonus type are most definitely not. And because of this it doesn't prove any point by giving the Caldari the Amarr bonus, as I agree the bonus type doesn't reflect it properly. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Onesimus Tarsus 896	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:04:00 - [127] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: I think the amarr, as their ethos goes, is relentless assault, grinding all beneath the boot type thing so with that stamina with one cardiac regulator means that you always remain getting in and out of combat at a steady unrelenting pace, never faltering, never giving the enemy one inch. Rp: Your faith gives you the strength to never yield. I'm not sure though, just trying to make sense of it. A bonus that only affects lore is really not very bonus-y in a firefight. I don't date magnets, but it's difficult to deny the attraction.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:04:00 - [128] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Have any reasoning behind this? Or just some arbitrary system set up by yourself? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3065	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:05:00 - [129] - Quote Low slot/high slot count Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:06:00 - [130] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:08:00 - [131] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3066	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:10:00 - [132] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd rather take a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. But this is more for hunting scouts than for actual scouting. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior (being sneaky) than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12430	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:10:00 - [133] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Have any reasoning behind this? Or just some arbitrary system set up by yourself? 1 Scan Profile, Sig Rad, Scan Range are equal on across ALL scout suits. 2 When moduled and no bonuses profile damps will favor those with the most low slots, thus caldari will rank worst, minmatar mid grade and gallente and amarr ranking first 2.a bonus thrown in gallente pulls ahead due to natural suit properties because of the bonus. 3. Inversely Scan range or profiling are invertedly opposite favoring high slots. with no bonuses caldari are alone superior in this, minmatar being mid grade and amarr and gallente scoring the worst points. 3a since gallente have also range amplification bonus the caldari will still pull ahead due to able to fit one more module than the gallente can in range. One does not need math to figure this out. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 104	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:12:00 - [134] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. it seems most people are stuck on the total nuber of stamina instead of the most important part of the bonus the stamina regen Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:12:00 - [135] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd ratke a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. But most the combatants on the battlefield aren't going to be scouts. You can scan virtually every non-scout with just one high slot, so how far out you can scan these becomes much more important.. And with scouts and cloaks, it doesn't matter much if you can passively scan them if you don't see them until they're already in close. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
mollerz Minja Scouts 2055	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:13:00 - [136] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:13:00 - [137] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. it seems most people are stuck on the total nuber of stamina instead of the most important part of the bonus the stamina regen Nope, covered that in the OP too. Read it and get back to me. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:14:00 - [138] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? Do you run this? How often do you? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 104	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:15:00 - [139] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. ^ the honest truth Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 545	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:15:00 - [140] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. Facepalm. I am not talking about single mod replacements. I already said I agree with the fact its not a "fair" mod/slots wise. But its the sum of the parts that makes it a good/fair bonus. If you actually take your example to completion you would see the minmitar is not any better. The minmitar has one less low slot and less CPU/PG, which HAS to be factored into the equation. You cant just cherry pick the individual stats you want and supplant all the rest. With 50% bonus an amarr scout could fit 1 cGREEN and 2 cREDS and would be nigh impossible to catch. It could also outrun every scout suit in the game for days. You have to think at the highest level. Not the basic mod to mod variations. The amarr scout could actually run faster and farther than every scout in the game with its current bonuses and you want to quadruple/double that? Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3279	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:16:00 - [141] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. ... There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower. Join my cult.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:17:00 - [142] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Facepalm. I am not talking about single mod replacements. I already said I agree with the fact its not a "fair" mod/slots wise. But its the sum of the parts that makes it a good/fair bonus. If you actually take your example to completion you would see the minmitar is not any better. The minmitar has one less low slot and less CPU/PG, which HAS to be factored into the equation. You cant just cherry pick the individual stats you want and supplant all the rest. With 50% bonus an amarr scout could fit 1 cGREEN and 2 cREDS and would be nigh impossible to catch. It could also outrun every scout suit in the game for days. You have to think at the highest level. Not the basic mod to mod variations. The amarr scout could actually run faster and farther than every scout in the game with its current bonuses and you want to quadruple/double that? Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. But the Minmatar has one more high slot than the Amarr, so it balances out. If you don't believe so, I gave the same example with a scout gk.0 which has the same slot layout as the Amarr and it was the same results - they could both do the same thing except Gallente could run longer and faster. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3066	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:17:00 - [143] - Quote Practical applications of stamina and paper applications of stamina are much different and you really have to realize that. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12433	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:19:00 - [144] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd ratke a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. But most the combatants on the battlefield aren't going to be scouts. You can scan virtually every non-scout with just one high slot, so how far out you can scan these becomes much more important.. And with scouts and cloaks, it doesn't matter much if you can passively scan them if you don't see them until they're already in close. You mean no high slots, provided they don't stealth up either. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 122	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:19:00 - [145] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. Why would you do any of that, why would you play outside of a suit's role and away from it's bonus, what do you intend to do with a role if you don't use it's perks? It sounds to me you don't like the Amarr bonus cause it doesn't suit your playstyle preference, you keep saying it's UP, you keep saying it's bonus is weaker than the others, but at this point you're just ignoring the advantages of the A-Scout. If you don't enjoy the thought of combat, pick a Gal scout, you wanna one-two-punch a heavy, pick the Min, you want to help the team find tagets, pick the Cal, if you want to be alive to do any of these thing, pick the Amarr. Your argument relies on the thought that all of the scouts would be using a card.reg, the only one that would even consider the thought of using a slot for that will be a M-Scout, all the scouts will have a define playstyle picked by their role bonuses and suit fittings, if you choose to ignore those clear advantages cause you want to prove you can do something better than an other suit don't be surprise when you fall short.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12433	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:20:00 - [146] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Practical applications of stamina and paper applications of stamina are much different and you really have to realize that. Right, I cannot tell you how many times I have died in this shinobi event because I ran out of moose juice at worst time. Roles the Amarr Scout suit will fulfill Recon Sniper Scout Sniper Skirmisher EOD Demolitions Skirmisher Perimeter Defense Intercept CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 122	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:21:00 - [147] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. ... There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower. Actually CCP said that's a possibility, they even said they would rather nerf everyone else's speed over giving Scouts more speed.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3067	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [148] - Quote lol moose juice. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
mollerz Minja Scouts 2057	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [149] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? No. I am saying that every minja can only run one, but also, that they HAVE to run one. There are situations where you'd value a red jar over a green jar, of course. No one would run 2 green jars because they couldn't, but I would absolutely love to have the stamina it bestowed. I know the critical advantages that comes of it. I don't need to go over the limits of the math of the bonus, because I know any stamina over 500 is the sweet spot that covers every map objective no matter where you are. I'd know that with that regen rate and the extra EHP I;d be ready to rock and roll upon arrival as opposed to making it to a staging area to recover and surveil, potentially losing precious initiative. You going back to numbers completely negates the advantages only a skilled scout would see beyond the numbers. even 2 seconds more sprint equates to a huge advantage for a scout. For you to not know this, tells me you don't run scout enough. Or you don't push the limits of the suit if you do, and probably should just cave and take up the suit that matches the role you want to play because amarr scout definitely is not the role for you. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [150] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open



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