DUST Search - Someone counter this argument on Amarr Scout bonus

All Channels

General Discussions

Someone counter this argument on Amarr Scout bonus

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5675	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:34:00 - [1] - Quote Over the several threads and posts regarding the Amarr scout bonus, no one has yet to attempt to counter this argument right here: If the Amarr scout's bonus was 20% per level, it would have 45 seconds of sprint at level 5. If a Gallente scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Caldari scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Minmatar scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 44.1 seconds of sprint. All of these are comparable values, plus they are also faster than the Amarr so would travel further in the slightly shorter time frame. And yes, it would be fair that these suits would have to equip a module to achieve comparable performance because likewise, the Amarr scout would have to equip a complex profile dampner, a complex precision enhancer, or complex codebreaker to achieve comparable performance to the other scouts in these respective areas. So, anyone want to take a crack at countering this? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5678	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:47:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CPU/PG. A complex cardiac regulator is a CPU/PG hog that profile damps and precision enhancers simply aren't. It was in another scout thread that I saw where someone did the math, if you compare it in terms of CPU/PG, it all fits. Amarr: Standard cardiac regulator: 5CPU 4PG Gallente: Complex profile dampener and standard range amp: 48CPU 0PG Caldari: Complex precision enhancer and standard range amp: 31 CPU 0PG Minmatar: Complex codebreaker (ignoring NK damage since that's hard to equate to a module): 45CPU 11PG Currently, the Amarr bonus's "CPU/PG equivalency" is not nearly in line with the rest. And for the record, a complex cardiac regulator is 12 CPU 8 PG, so I fail to see how your argument holds up. Care to explain? For the record, if anyone can counter this thread's argument soundly, then I will change my opinion. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5691	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:12:00 - [3] - Quote King Ghosts, it's actually 12 CPU 8 PG And honestly guys, this argument in the OP is the fundamental reason why I believe the current values of the Amarr racial bonus are under powered. So either a) Someone provides a clear counter and thus I am ok with the current planned bonus or b) No one can provide a counter, CCP sees this, they can't provide a counter, and they update the bonus It's a win-win situation and hopefully shows that I'm trying to be rational. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5691	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:18:00 - [4] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. Amarr Scout Base Stamina: 225 20% per level = 100% bonus at level 5 225 x 2 = 450 = 45 seconds Now for the complex cardiac regulators, they are 100% bonuses as well but also the skill is 2% efficacy per level, so once you can buy complex regulators they are actually 110%. This is fair to include in the calculations since the Amarr scout wouldn't be able to take advantage of this skill. Gallente Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Caldari Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Minmatar Scout Base Stamina: 210 110% bonus 210 * 2.1 = 441 = 44.1 seconds ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5695	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:20:00 - [5] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: You'd never run out of stamina, ever pretty much. Is that supposed to be your counter? Because neither would any of the other scouts in my argument, pretty much. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5701	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:29:00 - [6] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5701	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:35:00 - [7] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero please include an example of your math so we understand how you determined the numbers. Not being a troll, honest. Amarr Scout Base Stamina: 225 20% per level = 100% bonus at level 5 225 x 2 = 450 = 45 seconds Now for the complex cardiac regulators, they are 100% bonuses as well but also the skill is 2% efficacy per level, so once you can buy complex regulators they are actually 110%. This is fair to include in the calculations since the Amarr scout wouldn't be able to take advantage of this skill. Gallente Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Caldari Scout Base Stamina: 200 110% bonus 200 * 2.1 = 420 = 42 seconds Minmatar Scout Base Stamina: 210 110% bonus 210 * 2.1 = 441 = 44.1 seconds Thanks. I'll do some digging tomorrow. Bit I'm curious what effects the regen and speed have on the overall picture. So might be best to determine how far they go in a given timeframe. Or perhaps a m/s compare. I don't know how to do that without some digging. But perhaps someone with l33t math skills can do it. Might end up proving your point even more. As far as stamina recovery goes, using the same math, the results would be Amarr: 80 Gallente: 63 Caldari: 63 Minmatar: 73.5 Thus, if you divide the stamina by the stamina recovery you will get how long it would take to fully recharge this stamina, Amarr: 5.625 seconds Gallente: 6.666 seconds Caldari: 6.666 seconds Minmatar: 6.000 seconds Which is all pretty much in line, again. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5701	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:36:00 - [8] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Also, to contribute to the thread: I have level 1 cardiac just for the basic module (me no likey militia) and let me tell you: from nothing to basic, it feels like you can run forever and your stamina regains super fast. I don't know why anyone would use anything above basic unless they want to hack the point closest to the enemy's MCC... This personal anecdote does not address the argument presented in the original post of this thread. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:42:00 - [9] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite. The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp. I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view. I think he means if you no longer "need" to equip a green. Basically u would have infinite stamina, it would be a bit op. To compare, a gal with 25% more range would be 20+5. Which isn't all that far. So equipping another range amp would be useful. Minmitar having 25% more hack speed is only 2 less seconds. But putting on a code breaker makes it 7 less. With the 20% boost you would never "need" to have more stamina. Which means slightly op. One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. And to address that concern, let's take the Gallente scout for example since it perfectly mirrors the Amarr scout's slot layout and is good for comparison. So the Amarr scout doesn't need to equip a green anymore because it pretty much has infinite stamina, so that saves it one low slot, leaving it with all 4 left. Meanwhile a Gallente scout would have to use up one low slot to have this infinite stamina, leaving it with 3 lows left. But now, say the Gallente wants to avoid Gal Logi scanners, it would only have to put in one complex profile dampener since it already has one built in, leaving it with 2 low slots left. For the Amarr to do the same thing, it would need to apply two complex profile dampeners, leaving it with 2 low slots left. They are now at the same spot. Hope that makes sense. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:44:00 - [10] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:52:00 - [11] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Marad''er wrote: Hmm.. I see your point. This is exactly why I would personally settle on 10% per level. Not sure about other amarr scouts though. I'd be happy with that but if that's it any other scout is still more desirable At the very least, we are making progress in getting our point of view across in a way that doesn't come off as whining, QQing, or plain Amarr bias. If anything, I just want people to see that we are being rational. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5702	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:58:00 - [12] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. But whatever it is, the Gal scout would require one less low slot to achieve it than the Amarr scout (using this comparison because they have the same slot layout). So freeing up that one extra low slot is then equivalent to the Amarr scout not needing to apply a green and freeing up one low slot. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5703	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:03:00 - [13] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. I'm trying to figure out what the Amarr scouts stamina would be with current proposed bonus and what the stamina would be with your bonus. Im tired and my brain isn't that good to begin with. I'm trying to figure out...stuff Base stamina? 5% per level = 281.25 stamina base. + 1 Complx cardiac = 562.5 20% per level = 450 stamina base. + 1 Complx cardiac = 900 But the whole point is the bonus saves you a low slot, so if you want to use that latter comparison then you need to compare it to every other scout using two complex cardiac regulators. Honestly I don't see why anyone would do that, but still. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5703	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:08:00 - [14] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. But whatever it is, the Gal scout would require one less low slot to achieve it than the Amarr scout (using this comparison because they have the same slot layout). So freeing up that one extra low slot is then equivalent to the Amarr scout not needing to apply a green and freeing up one low slot. I see wher you are coming from. I just think that ten % and something else small would be a better idea. Personally, I think a small bonus to clock field active time or clock cost to activate would be cool. I would definitely be ok with 10% and something else small. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:14:00 - [15] - Quote Absoliav wrote: I notice in your math you for the a-scout you had the x2 multiplier for it while the others got a x2.1, why would you exclude the 10% efficiency skill bonus for c-regs on Amarr but add it to the others? If they are all using complex to get that x2, they would all get the bonus, just asking, as it confused me when I saw your example. Because the Amarr bonus would simply be 100% more (20% per level times 5 levels), while the other scouts would have to use a complex regulator, but in order to use complex regulators you need cardiac regulation to 5 which gives you the bonus of 10% more efficacy towards cardiac regulators. And since the Amarr scout wouldn't use a cardiac regulator module, as it already has practically infinite stamina an no need for one of these modules, it would not be able to take advantage of this efficacy bonus. And for further clarification, the Amarr saving one slot with the cardiac regulator is equivalent to Gallente saving a slot with profile dampening, Caldari saving a slot with scan precision, and Minmatar saving a slot with hack speed. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:16:00 - [16] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Over the several threads and posts regarding the Amarr scout bonus, no one has yet to attempt to counter this argument right here: If the Amarr scout's bonus was 20% per level, it would have 45 seconds of sprint at level 5. If a Gallente scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Caldari scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 42 seconds of sprint. If a Minmatar scout equipped a complex cardiac regulator, it would have 44.1 seconds of sprint. All of these are comparable values, plus they are also faster than the Amarr so would travel further in the slightly shorter time frame. Scout ak0: 236m before stamina is exhausted Scout gk0: 228m Scout ck0: 228m Scout mk0: 249m so yeah. And of course the Amarr would take 3 seconds longer to do this than the Caldari and Gallente (45 seconds to exhaust sprint opposed to 42) and 0.9 seconds longer than Minmatar, while traveling less distance noneless. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:26:00 - [17] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: So, anyone want to take a crack at countering this? This run-in-a-straight-line thought experiment fails to speak to the combat value of Stamina Regen. I assume you are tankier than other Scouts because you're intended to perform more combat functions. So to a hit-and-run, up-armored, Combat Scout ... What is more important, Stamina Regen or Stamina Pool? If you wanted to "win the distance race" ... why not pile KinCats and CardRegs onto a non-up-armored Scout? Better yet, if you want to "win the distance race", why not just take a Vehicle? You guys are downplaying the significant combat value of Stamina Regen. I defer to Marauder on this topic; I believe he has said the bonus should be +10% rather than +5% per level. This isn't a "run-in-a-straight-line" experiment, I listed the total stamina of all races. Also a few posts ago I did the math for stamina regen for all races. They are all in line with each other, giving them the the same combat value of the stamina as well. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:27:00 - [18] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Joel II X wrote: Also, to contribute to the thread: I have level 1 cardiac just for the basic module (me no likey militia) and let me tell you: from nothing to basic, it feels like you can run forever and your stamina regains super fast. I don't know why anyone would use anything above basic unless they want to hack the point closest to the enemy's MCC... This personal anecdote does not address the argument presented in the original post of this thread. From what I understood, you wanted to know why every other scout has complex level mods to their suits at level 5 when the Amarr, doesn't. Is that right? If so, then I told you why from my opinion. It already feels like you can run forever with the basic module. With a free complex one, you could run even further, and possibly faster. That wouldn't give the time for anyone to catch up. Not only that, but your stamina would regenerate faster than I could blink. In my opinion, if the bonus was to get a boost, it shouldn't be a lot. But then look at how that compared to other scouts using a complex cardiac regulator with the freed up slot they gain from their respective bonuses, that is what I'm saying. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5705	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:28:00 - [19] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here, a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5706	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:35:00 - [20] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Also, I'll pop in here if you guys need someone to bounce idea's off of. Check the updated OP, what do you think? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5710	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:49:00 - [21] - Quote Absoliav wrote: But would you skip putting a damp on a Cal scout just cause of a native bonus? If yes, then that's just silly to skip on a clear advantage, judging from the stats on the A-Scout, it is clearly built to last longer then the other scouts, it has more total health, four lows and more stamina/recov than the others, unlike Cal and Gal, you wouldn't have to use two slots to get the most out of it's bonus as Gal would need to reserve two slots just to take advantage of it's bonuses, Amarr would only need one and would have five free slots to take advantage of it's higher durability. The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. The Cal scout has no native bonus to dampening, you are thinking th Gal scout? And a couple things, 1) I am not too sure the A-Scout is built to last longer. It only has 30 more HP, but at total HP values as low as scouts that doesn't really mean as much as movement speed for dodging bullets, and the Amarr scout has the least movement speed. Saying the Amarr scout is built to last longer is thus entirely subjective. 2) While the Cal and Gal scout would still need to apply profile dampeners/precision enhancers, the amount they need to apply would be 1 slot less than what the Amarr scout would need to apply to get comparable values. This saving of one slot is equivalent to the Amarr saving one slot by not needing a Cardiac regulator. Of course, as Son-Of A-Gun pointed out, this means the Amarr can save skill points by not needing to spec into cardiac regulation at all, so a 20% bonus per level isn't exactly fair. He suggested instead it is a 10% per level bonus along with a small secondary bonus, which sounds good and in line with the other bonuses. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5710	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:58:00 - [22] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: What will the amarr scouts's recovery rate be compared to the other scouts? Aero Yassavi wrote: As far as stamina recovery goes, using the same math, the results would be Amarr: 80 Gallente: 63 Caldari: 63 Minmatar: 73.5 Thus, if you divide the stamina by the stamina recovery you will get how long it would take to fully recharge this stamina, Amarr: 5.625 seconds Gallente: 6.666 seconds Caldari: 6.666 seconds Minmatar: 6.000 seconds Which is all pretty much in line, again. Added to the original post. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5714	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:20:00 - [23] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5715	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:33:00 - [24] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while. By the way, with that like I welcome you to the ranks for Forum Warrior ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5715	Posted - 2014.01.21 08:55:00 - [25] - Quote Faquira Bleuetta wrote: First bonus: 10% reduction to spawns time (i left the +2 to max. spawn count per level for balance) Second Bonus 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or First bonus: 12% reduction to PG/CPU cost of drop uplink equipment Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or first bonus: Amarr Scout Bonus: 5% reduction to cloak field cooldown per level. And maybe a second bonus (depend if Cloak sucks a little or whatnot): 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen Or First bonus: 3% Scrambler Pistol damage per level. Second Bonus: 5% to max stamina & Stamina regen CCP this or just remove Amarr scout dropsuit 1st proposal interferes too much with the Amarr logi bonus. 2nd proposal creates another fitting bonus, which is silly when the class bonus is already a fitting bonus 3rd proposal sounds good but a lot of people don't like the thought of cloak performance bonuses 4th proposal sounds too overpowered, we should try to avoid giving flat out damage bonuses. This is one of the problem with the Amarr scout, there are only so many stats you can affect and none seem quite right. My favorite suggestion so far is a stamina bonus and a bonus to ferroscale plates, but I need to put a little more thought into that as well as calculations. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5738	Posted - 2014.01.21 15:42:00 - [26] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Just a question - Has the 5% max stamina and stamina regen from the Biotic Upgrades skill been factored in to all of these calculations? No, though feel free to add that 5% to all values listed, it does not change much. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5748	Posted - 2014.01.21 17:58:00 - [27] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. The reasoning for the amarr scout getting only a 25% increase to regen and stamina is because it ties in line with the same bonus multipliers as the other bonuses. The reasoning behind only 25% instead of 50/100% is because the balance lies in the fact CCP wants to ensure you still need to equip a card reg to really capitalize on that bonus. Same with all other scouts or racials for that matter. Minmitar - 25% bonus to hacking. Equates to 2 seconds less of hacking, not all that useful. With a cpx codebreaker 7 seconds less of hacking. Caldari - Precision enhancement gives you the option to see mediums but not scouts. Equip precision mod, you get to see scouts Galentte - Damp bonus enhancement keeps you safe from most scanners, but not prototype and not gal scanners. Amarr - Gives you longer run times and increased regen, adding a cpx card reg gives you the option to never stop running. Now if you gave the Amarr a 50% or 100% bonus to regen and stamina they would never have to slip in GREEN pills. It would effectively be a waste to the suit. Which I think is the main reasoning for the way the bonus is balanced. Also, it is important to balance from the top down. That measly hp bonus actually equates to 87 more hitpoints when skilled up. As stated, never needing to slip in a green pill saves you one low slot. As compared to other bonuses like say the Gallente's profile dampening, you still need to slip in more profile dampening but the amount you need to is one less than everyone else, so that saves you one low slot. However, because not needing to slip a green pill at all saves you SP that is why I am backing down to 50% at level 5. And actually your math is wrong, the measly 30 extra hit points actually equates to 37.5 more hitpoints when Armor and Shield Upgrades are maxed compared to the Gal and Cal scouts with those skills maxed as well. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5750	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:13:00 - [28] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Alright my counter argument. The reasoning for the amarr scout getting only a 25% increase to regen and stamina is because it ties in line with the same bonus multipliers as the other bonuses. The reasoning behind only 25% instead of 50/100% is because the balance lies in the fact CCP wants to ensure you still need to equip a card reg to really capitalize on that bonus. Same with all other scouts or racials for that matter. Minmitar - 25% bonus to hacking. Equates to 2 seconds less of hacking, not all that useful. With a cpx codebreaker 7 seconds less of hacking. Caldari - Precision enhancement gives you the option to see mediums but not scouts. Equip precision mod, you get to see scouts Galentte - Damp bonus enhancement keeps you safe from most scanners, but not prototype and not gal scanners. Amarr - Gives you longer run times and increased regen, adding a cpx card reg gives you the option to never stop running. Now if you gave the Amarr a 50% or 100% bonus to regen and stamina they would never have to slip in GREEN pills. It would effectively be a waste to the suit. Which I think is the main reasoning for the way the bonus is balanced. Also, it is important to balance from the top down. That measly hp bonus actually equates to 87 more hitpoints when skilled up. As stated, never needing to slip in a green pill saves you one low slot. As compared to other bonuses like say the Gallente's profile dampening, you still need to slip in more profile dampening but the amount you need to is one less than everyone else, so that saves you one low slot. However, because not needing to slip a green pill at all saves you SP that is why I am backing down to 50% at level 5. And actually your math is wrong, the measly 30 extra hit points actually equates to 37.5 more hitpoints when Armor and Shield Upgrades are maxed compared to the Gal and Cal scouts with those skills maxed as well. EDIT: And also the Gallente profile bonus does get you under proto scanners without needing anything else, just not Gal proto scanners. But that is besides the point. Yes but the idea is to balance bonus vs bonus. I understand what you mean when you say that other suits have to fit additional slots to equate the same effective bonus. But a bonus to the suit doesn't incur stack penalties. At 50% more stamina and regen without any greens the amarr will never NEED to fit a green. While all other scouts will have to, at some point need to fit another mod of the same bonus type to be effective. If an Amarr suit will never need to fit a green, then why are you talking stacking penalties? Also the no stacking penalty thing also applies to every other racial bonus as well. And my point stands, all the bonus would do by not needing to fit a green is free up one low slot. This is equivalent to every other scout also freeing up one low slot with their bonus, even if they still need to fit more. Let me explain: The subjects here will be the Scout gk.0 and Scout ak.0 since they have the same slot layout. The ak.0 doesn't need to fit a green, still has all 4 lows The gk.0 needs to fit a green, has 3 lows left The ak.0 needs to apply 2 complex profile dampeners to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left The gk.0 needs to apply 1 complex profile dampener to avoid Gal logi scans, has 2 lows left See what I'm getting at? Simply saying "never needing to fit a green" isn't a valid enough argument without providing the context. However, a good counter argument would be what Son-Of A-Gun stated, which is that never fitting a green means you can save SP. That is why my opinion is now changed from 20% per level to 10% per level and with another small secondary bonus like the rest of the scouts. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5751	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:17:00 - [29] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: EDIT: Gal wont be immune to the focused scanner (14dB) until they fit damps. Regardless of who is running the focused. General rule of thumb when talking about proto scanners (plural) is all proto scanners except the Duvolle Focused, as they are all 28 dB. The Duvolle Focused is just one scanner (singular). However, the point still holds that however many profile dampeners the other scouts need to fit to avoid the Duvolle Focused, the Gal scout will need one less. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5751	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:25:00 - [30] - Quote Also since I double posted and one post got left behind on the last page, just wanting to make sure that you see that one as well. It covers that argument. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5753	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:12:00 - [31] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either. It does, because the current 5% per level puts the Amarr scout at about 29 seconds of sprint, which isn't quite the same as "infinite sprint" like the other scouts would have in the detailed math of my original post to this thread. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:50:00 - [32] - Quote IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:55:00 - [33] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:00:00 - [34] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:01:00 - [35] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: My counter point has plenty of context. All the other suits are required to still use the mod with which they get a bonus for. If amarr got a 50% bonus they would never have a reason to fit a card reg. Tipping the scales in the other direction. 50% is just too much of a bonus. You stated that a 2 second less stamina boost is useless, which is the current bonus for Amarr. Well you get 2 less seconds to hack as a minmitar. Is that bonus equally as useless? 2 seconds less hacking time is only when hacking, while utilizing stamina is an all battle long skill bonus. Does that mean a minmitar should never have to fit codebreakers? If so they should just get a 75% bonus to hack speed so it "frees up a slot" I would rather as a minmitar scout have a 25% bonus to stamina than a 25% hack bonus. Stamina is the life blood of a scout. The hack bonus is uselss by itself, its only useful when coupled with the mods it bonuses that it becomes useful. Thats the whole point of the stamina bonus to amarr currently. Its not all that great until you utilize a card reg. I understand where you are coming from in terms of "mod cost" but role bonuses are not there to "free up a slot" they are there to create a ROLE. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking. the minmatar scout only has 3 low slots And 3 highs, while Amarr has 2 highs. Same number of slots. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:03:00 - [36] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Modules and Bonuses and Innate stats of the suit are inseparable. Prove me wrong by giving the amarr bonus to the caldari. Selection of the bonus type may be inseparable, but the values of the bonus type are most definitely not. And because of this it doesn't prove any point by giving the Caldari the Amarr bonus, as I agree the bonus type doesn't reflect it properly. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:04:00 - [37] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Have any reasoning behind this? Or just some arbitrary system set up by yourself? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:06:00 - [38] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:08:00 - [39] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:12:00 - [40] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd ratke a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. But most the combatants on the battlefield aren't going to be scouts. You can scan virtually every non-scout with just one high slot, so how far out you can scan these becomes much more important.. And with scouts and cloaks, it doesn't matter much if you can passively scan them if you don't see them until they're already in close. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:13:00 - [41] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: I run gk.o scout and I have ran scout since I started DUST and stamina mods are more important then kinkats for all my fits I run a scout gk.0 as well. I'm not arguing that stamina is not important. Read the OP and get back to me. it seems most people are stuck on the total nuber of stamina instead of the most important part of the bonus the stamina regen Nope, covered that in the OP too. Read it and get back to me. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:14:00 - [42] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. This is why you will never realize how ridiculous your argument is. It doesn't just lack imagination i.e. falling back to hard numbers period, it is devoid of tactical experience. That's right. You must have no idea how to play a scout. Any minja will tell you that putting a complex card reg on their suit is not endless stamina. In fact, you always have to manage it. You will easily run it down, out, and then have to contend with a second of delay before it starts recharging. Then you have to actually let it recharge, and 39.69 is slllooooooow. Why slow? Meanwhile, tanks are rolling on you, LAVS with heavies, other scouts, the entire squad your tacnet somehow didn't pick up, etc. I know this much, my C Car Reg'd 441 stamina isn't nearly enough.I'll bet if you played that amarr scout as is for a month and then tried ot play another scout you'd seriously miss that extra stamina to the point it would be hard to adapt to the lack of it. Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? Do you run this? How often do you? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5758	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:17:00 - [43] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Facepalm. I am not talking about single mod replacements. I already said I agree with the fact its not a "fair" mod/slots wise. But its the sum of the parts that makes it a good/fair bonus. If you actually take your example to completion you would see the minmitar is not any better. The minmitar has one less low slot and less CPU/PG, which HAS to be factored into the equation. You cant just cherry pick the individual stats you want and supplant all the rest. With 50% bonus an amarr scout could fit 1 cGREEN and 2 cREDS and would be nigh impossible to catch. It could also outrun every scout suit in the game for days. You have to think at the highest level. Not the basic mod to mod variations. The amarr scout could actually run faster and farther than every scout in the game with its current bonuses and you want to quadruple/double that? Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. But the Minmatar has one more high slot than the Amarr, so it balances out. If you don't believe so, I gave the same example with a scout gk.0 which has the same slot layout as the Amarr and it was the same results - they could both do the same thing except Gallente could run longer and faster. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 - [44] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:27:00 - [45] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Are you suggesting that anyone is going to run two complex cardiac regulators in sacrifice for other modules they could of used that low slot for? No. I am saying that every minja can only run one, but also, that they HAVE to run one. There are situations where you'd value a red jar over a green jar, of course. No one would run 2 green jars because they couldn't, but I would absolutely love to have the stamina it bestowed. I know the critical advantages that comes of it. I don't need to go over the limits of the math of the bonus, because I know any stamina over 500 is the sweet spot that covers every map objective no matter where you are. I'd know that with that regen rate and the extra EHP I;d be ready to rock and roll upon arrival as opposed to making it to a staging area to recover and surveil, potentially losing precious initiative. You going back to numbers completely negates the advantages only a skilled scout would see beyond the numbers. even 2 seconds more sprint equates to a huge advantage for a scout. For you to not know this, tells me you don't run scout enough. Or you don't push the limits of the suit if you do, and probably should just cave and take up the suit that matches the role you want to play because amarr scout definitely is not the role for you. But what about the Scout gk.0? Same slot layout, same problem ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5771	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:28:00 - [46] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? Going to quote myself here since everyone is now complaining that it is unfair to the Minmatar scout because it only gets 3 lows, but here is something to chew on for the Gallente scout with the same slot layout. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:30:00 - [47] - Quote I sincerely hope CCP has more logic and reasoning than all you people who simply say "It looks good because I run scout and can look at things practically." I run proto scouts too, you know ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:32:00 - [48] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? And you want to double that with the amarr who has the same low slot count with only slightly lower sprint speed? 80 seconds of sprinting at 10m/s is a life time. The minimtar can only do that for 20 seconds. The Amarr scout would not be able to sprint as fast, and the Gal scout would be able to do all of this while avoiding proto scanners (save the Focused and Gal logis). The Amarr scout would only be able to do this if he is ok with getting scanned by proto scanners, which is hardly a good trade-off considering there isn't much practical use of sprinting 164 seconds in Dust opposed to 82. Both are essentially "infinite." ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:33:00 - [49] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I sincerely hope CCP has more logic and reasoning than all you people who simply say "It looks good because I run scout and can look at things practically." I run proto scouts too, you know They do have more logic. Why do you think I am arguing with you over how silly this looks? Because all your arguments are based on just that, looks opposed to reason. I am very thankful you do not work for CCP. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:34:00 - [50] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? And you want to double that with the amarr who has the same low slot count with only slightly lower sprint speed? 80 seconds of sprinting at 10m/s is a life time. The minimtar can only do that for 20 seconds. The Amarr scout would not be able to sprint as fast, and the Gal scout would be able to do all of this while avoiding proto scanners (save the Focused and Gal logis). The Amarr scout would only be able to do this if he is ok with getting scanned by proto scanners, which is hardly a good trade-off considering there isn't much practical use of sprinting 164 seconds in Dust opposed to 82. Both are essentially "infinite." Quoting for new page. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:35:00 - [51] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The way you talk to us is like telling your car mechanic he's wrong because you looked at the instruction manual when he has experience being a mechanic. Your attitude is simply irritating and it discourages anyone from wanting to help you. Poor analogy is poor analogy. But it's ok, I enjoy reading common fallacies. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5772	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:37:00 - [52] - Quote mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5773	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:40:00 - [53] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: The way you talk to us is like telling your car mechanic he's wrong because you looked at the instruction manual when he has experience being a mechanic. Your attitude is simply irritating and it discourages anyone from wanting to help you. Poor analogy is poor analogy. But it's ok, I enjoy reading common fallacies. Lol You're well liked a person I can tell. Cyrius, at least IWS and Igniteable have been using actual data to back up their claims. All you have used in your counter arguments is "I am proto scout I am right." ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5773	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:44:00 - [54] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5773	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:45:00 - [55] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! name calling? lolololol okay whatever. my apologies. So you aren't a scout tourist? I've been scouting since Chromosome and have an alt with Scout gk.0 maxed out that I have had since the beginning of Uprising. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5775	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:25:00 - [56] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. It wouldn't be the same as all other scouts as they have much lower base stats. Two complex card regs on other scouts besides gal would never happen as its just not effective and you use most of your slots. The only better base stats the Amarr have is the 30 extra HP (37.5 at max skills) and the stamina/stamina regen. You then fit a the Gal scout like I told you, and the stamina and stamina regen benefits go away (you're looking at a 1 second difference in a full stamina recovery, check out first post). Plus Gal scout also has inherent 3 hp/s armor repair. Hardly much lower base stats. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5781	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:12:00 - [57] - Quote Arrach Sarkal wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here and go with his previous suggestion that a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. This sort of balance only works in the short term, at best. Neither skillpoints or ISK are zero-sum, both are inflationary. Tying balance of anything to the perceived value of either at a fixed point in time is doomed to failure. Or to put it another way, if you've been playing for any length of time, the value of X skillpoints to you today is less than the same number a month, six months or a year ago. Peg balance of a suit (or anything else) to that and the same will happen to that. Arrach, notice I stated adding a separate secondary bonus in addition to simply 10% per level, that way it can still remain on par. If this were the case, then the Amarr would still have to skill into cardiac regulation, negating the SP argument, but would still have an even value to its bonus. I definitely agree with your sentiment. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5794	Posted - 2014.01.21 23:39:00 - [58] - Quote GRIM GEAR wrote: The strafing argument is null and void it all depends on who's controlling the toon for example; DJINN Soul can out strafe my Minmatar Scout suit with his Caldari assault suit. But if all other things equal, movement speed directly impacts strafe ability. If you put DJINN Soul in a Minmatar Scout, he'd be able to strafe better. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 7493	Posted - 2014.01.22 00:16:00 - [59] - Quote True Adamance wrote: GRIM GEAR wrote: Let's not forget that Amarr, Cal, and Gal scouts may be losing their sidearms whereas Minmatar might only have one equipment slot. Whats the source for this info? I thought it was confirmed NO side arm trade and 2 Equipment slots. He probably hasn't heard the news that the losing a sidearm thing has sense been reconsidered and they are no longer pursuing that approach. "You're not even Aero, you're just Aero's friend."

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.