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Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2014.01.21 07:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
I notice in your math you for the a-scout you had the x2 multiplier for it while the others got a x2.1, why would you exclude the 10% efficiency skill bonus for c-regs on Amarr but add it to the others?
If they are all using complex to get that x2, they would all get the bonus, just asking, as it confused me when I saw your example. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
121
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Posted - 2014.01.21 07:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
Looking at the a-scout's stats, it looks to me that is is going to be the most durable of the scouts and judging from it's race bonus and slot layout, it's leaning more towards a battle scout making it the hardest scout to put down if you put a complex damp, reg, ferroscales, and a reper, I don't really see the issue hear, yeah it won't be as stealthy as the others, or as fast, but that doesn't really mean much if the other scouts die from just looking at them. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 07:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Absoliav wrote:I notice in your math you for the a-scout you had the x2 multiplier for it while the others got a x2.1, why would you exclude the 10% efficiency skill bonus for c-regs on Amarr but add it to the others?
If they are all using complex to get that x2, they would all get the bonus, just asking, as it confused me when I saw your example. Because the Amarr bonus would simply be 100% more (20% per level times 5 levels), while the other scouts would have to use a complex regulator, but in order to use complex regulators you need cardiac regulation to 5 which gives you the bonus of 10% more efficacy towards cardiac regulators. And since the Amarr scout wouldn't use a cardiac regulator module, as it already has practically infinite stamina an no need for one of these modules, it would not be able to take advantage of this efficacy bonus. And for further clarification, the Amarr saving one slot with the cardiac regulator is equivalent to Gallente saving a slot with profile dampening, Caldari saving a slot with scan precision, and Minmatar saving a slot with hack speed.
But would you skip putting a damp on a Cal scout just cause of a native bonus?
If yes, then that's just silly to skip on a clear advantage, judging from the stats on the A-Scout, it is clearly built to last longer then the other scouts, it has more total health, four lows and more stamina/recov than the others, unlike Cal and Gal, you wouldn't have to use two slots to get the most out of it's bonus as Gal would need to reserve two slots just to take advantage of it's bonuses, Amarr would only need one and would have five free slots to take advantage of it's higher durability.
The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 08:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote: The Cal scout has no native bonus to dampening, you are thinking th Gal scout?
And a couple things, 1) I am not too sure the A-Scout is built to last longer. It only has 30 more HP, but at total HP values as low as scouts that doesn't really mean as much as movement speed for dodging bullets, and the Amarr scout has the least movement speed. Saying the Amarr scout is built to last longer is thus entirely subjective.
2) While the Cal and Gal scout would still need to apply profile dampeners/precision enhancers, the amount they need to apply would be 1 slot less than what the Amarr scout would need to apply to get comparable values. This saving of one slot is equivalent to the Amarr saving one slot by not needing a Cardiac regulator.
Of course, as Son-Of A-Gun pointed out, this means the Amarr can save skill points by not needing to spec into cardiac regulation at all, so a 20% bonus per level isn't exactly fair. He suggested instead it is a 10% per level bonus along with a small secondary bonus, which sounds good and in line with the other bonuses.
Thank you for the correction, I did in fact meant to Gal, if the skills for armor and shields stay the same in 1.8 the Amarr Scout with max skills would have a sum of 287 total health, and with 4 lows to play with can easily armor tank with ferros, add one ferro, 370, two equals 452, and it'll still have the same speed and two free high slots to ether put on extenders or damage mods. The Amarr is clearly built for more conflict then the others, just as the Amarr Logi is more the aggresive logi for it's obvious weapon advantage over the other logis.
I understand if we look at A-Scout bonus froma single comparative perspective it's clearly the weaker bonus, but if we expand our view too look and consider the applications and how they can be applied on the field, we can see it's far more useful then at first glance. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 08:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Absoliav wrote:
The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr.
Yep. M-Scout: "To heck with health! I'll be gone before they turn around!!"A-Scout: " I will catch up to you. And I WILL kill you. "C-Scout: "Hey guys! THEY'RE OVER HERE"G-Scout: "......." (He's staying silent to stay hidden")
I would love to see this in comic format! |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
122
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Posted - 2014.01.21 20:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote: If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator.
So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid.
This is the sort of context that your arguments are lacking.
Why would you do any of that, why would you play outside of a suit's role and away from it's bonus, what do you intend to do with a role if you don't use it's perks?
It sounds to me you don't like the Amarr bonus cause it doesn't suit your playstyle preference, you keep saying it's UP, you keep saying it's bonus is weaker than the others, but at this point you're just ignoring the advantages of the A-Scout. If you don't enjoy the thought of combat, pick a Gal scout, you wanna one-two-punch a heavy, pick the Min, you want to help the team find tagets, pick the Cal, if you want to be alive to do any of these thing, pick the Amarr.
Your argument relies on the thought that all of the scouts would be using a card.reg, the only one that would even consider the thought of using a slot for that will be a M-Scout, all the scouts will have a define playstyle picked by their role bonuses and suit fittings, if you choose to ignore those clear advantages cause you want to prove you can do something better than an other suit don't be surprise when you fall short. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
122
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Posted - 2014.01.21 20:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:
Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons...
-So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue.
...
There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left?
Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower.
Actually CCP said that's a possibility, they even said they would rather nerf everyone else's speed over giving Scouts more speed. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
126
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Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Marad''er wrote:I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game.
I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC.
That's right I said it.
Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun
Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA.
Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
127
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Posted - 2014.01.21 21:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Absoliav wrote:Marad''er wrote:I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game.
I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC.
That's right I said it.
Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right?
If you choose to be a less stealthy Gal Scout, no problem, that's what you want to do, don't take advantage of your bonuses, that's what you choose to do, it doesn't make your choice make your choice any more stupid or smart, it's how you feel you can make the most of what you have to fit your playstyle. But keep in mind what you forsake, playing outside of a suits bonus puts you at a disadvantage in the suit's respective role, if I want to be stealthy, I'll choose Gal and maximize it's for stealth, if I want to know where my enemy is at all time, I'll go with Cal and keep my distance, if I want sabotage my enemies defense, I'll pick Min and max my speed, I can decide to deviate from these roles if I please but I will always be at a disadvantage compared to those that specialize in a role I pick.
If you want to tank in a Gal suit, that's fine, you could have just used an Amarr, if you want to use an Amarr instead of a Gal for stealth too, it's all good, just keep in mind that you will still be comparatively weaker to the suit you're trying to imitate. |
Absoliav
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
128
|
Posted - 2014.01.21 22:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8
It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page.
This is a very good point, and a good analogy to go with, at this time we should all just wait and see how things pan out. |
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