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True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6041	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:46:00 - [181] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: mollerz wrote: no. not what about any other scout. This goat rodeo merry go round of an argument you have lacks any further interest for me. It is blander than my taint. You might be the biggest scout tourist I've ever come across. I feel bad for actual Amarr scouts who have to suffer your hijacking of their role. And the counter arguments have officially turned into name calling! name calling? lolololol okay whatever. my apologies. So you aren't a scout tourist? I don't think Aero is even speccing scout..... but you know how Aero and most of PIE Inc have felt about suit frames. You cannot call us scouts because CCP took 6 ******* months to release our racial variant. I know I am speccing scout to complement my pilot suit theme. Even so I fail to see how you can go on and on about the other bonuses being fair and gifting significant boons to scout based aspects, but you cannot bring yourself to accept that the Amarr scout could indeed be the biotics scout and have superior Stamina and regen? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
mollerz Minja Scouts 2058	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 - [182] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I've been scouting since Chromosome and have an alt with Scout gk.0 maxed out that I have had since the beginning of Uprising. Yet you do not understand the value of the current stamina bonus. hmm... You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 126	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 - [183] - Quote Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath.
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:49:00 - [184] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing ** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. I see. Then may we ask for a secondary bonus? What about a bonus to stamina consumption of jumping? 5% /level I'm assuming you mean a reduction to stamina consumption of jumping. Not sure about that. Jumping isn't too reliable with AA how it is. It works from time to time but it isn't reliable. I was thinking more of a direct combat bonus. I personally prefer scrambler pistol bonuses But I could settle on jumping I guess. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4** \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Jen Gelfling Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:50:00 - [185] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. ... There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? Well, if they can't make scouts any faster, I guess they could make everything else slower. Actually CCP said that's a possibility, they even said they would rather nerf everyone else's speed over giving Scouts more speed. Wouldn't be the first time they adjusted suit speed I guess. I kinda thought suit speed changes would already be in the works for this. If there's an overlap in the speed of medium suits (Logi/Assault), then it makes sense because those suits are the same mass/size/tier. An overlap in the speed of an assault and a scout suit doesn't really make sense though.
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6041	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:50:00 - [186] - Quote mollerz wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I've been scouting since Chromosome and have an alt with Scout gk.0 maxed out that I have had since the beginning of Uprising. Yet you do not understand the value of the current stamina bonus. hmm... Of course we do which is why we want one that is balanced against a 25% faster hacking speed, being 25% harder to detect, and being able to detect people 25% more easily, amongst the other bonuses these other scout suits receive. "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 6041	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:52:00 - [187] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right? "My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:52:00 - [188] - Quote Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. Oh of course. EHP is the greatest. However people were arguing saying stamina was more important than speed. Which I don't agree with. And to your scenario, that is impossible because in PC you die very fast. Rarely do you actually have to stop and regen stamina in combat. Even without running cardiacs. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3070	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:54:00 - [189] - Quote Let's all keep in mind the Amarr are long distance fighters. Giving them the ability to dominate in short range innately over other suits (minmatar and gallente) is not the way to go for balance sake. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:58:00 - [190] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Let's all keep in mind the Amarr are long distance fighters. Giving them the ability to dominate in short range innately over other suits (minmatar and gallente) is not the way to go for balance sake. Stamina would not be dominating innately in cqc. Speed(strafe and sprint) and EHP are what cqc domination is. Currently amarr have with skills maxed, about 40-50 more hp right? So it would win in the hp department but no speed. I believe the scouts are actually pretty well balanced for cqc fighting against each other GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY

Nikea Nei Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 70	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:59:00 - [191] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development. Yeah. Even with a stamina bonus, the Amarr scout's speed gimp will make it the worst scout. Movement speed while strafing, etc. will have a larger impact on encounters than any other bonuses. Stamina doesn't mean the scout can completely avoid encounters, and a sniping role that wouldn't involve direct encounters is better served by the tank to absorb countersniping fire than stamina/profile.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 3071	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:59:00 - [192] - Quote I meant the scrambler pistol bonus. XD Those things border on ridiculous as is. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 547	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:04:00 - [193] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. It wouldn't be the same as all other scouts as they have much lower base stats. Two complex card regs on other scouts besides gal would never happen as its just not effective and you use most of your slots. Try using a range amp on a minmitar build vs a gal build and you see a huge spike in effectiveness of range amps. Its the same idea. The truth is the cardiac regs will make a huge impact on the amarr scout while they will be marginal impacts on the other scouts because of: Lower base stats, no role bonus. A-scouts at max skills will have several skills that improve upon their innate high stamina skills that put it in a "league of their own" These bonuses will be stacking free. So it will add up much more quickly than if someone fit mods. You have: 5% stamina, recovery, sprint speed 10% increased effectiveness of card regs bonuses 25% increased racial bonus Amr scout with single complex Green 225 * 1.05 * 1.25 = 295 * 2.10 = 620 stamina pool 40 * 1.05 * 1.25 = 53 * 2.10 = 111 stamina recovery Gal scout (closest scenario / best case) with single complex Green 210 * 1.05 = 220.5 * 2.10 = 463 stamina pool 35 * 1.05 = 36.75 * 2.10 = 77 recovery You can see a huge difference in their stamina and regen and this is with a best case scenario. Now you want to double that bonus. You can see why that would be a bit OP. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 547	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:08:00 - [194] - Quote Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. I see. Then may we ask for a secondary bonus? What about a bonus to stamina consumption of jumping? 5% /level I'm assuming you mean a reduction to stamina consumption of jumping. Not sure about that. Jumping isn't too reliable with AA how it is. It works from time to time but it isn't reliable. I was thinking more of a direct combat bonus. I personally prefer scrambler pistol bonuses But I could settle on jumping I guess. Problem with combat bonuses is they directly impact the assault category. I was going more in the line of building on the stamina bonus and the first thing I could thing of that would likely kill a scout is having to jump a ledge. As that means no more stamina in most cases. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12439	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:10:00 - [195] - Quote Nikea Nei wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development. Yeah. Even with a stamina bonus, the Amarr scout's speed gimp will make it the worst scout. Movement speed while strafing, etc. will have a larger impact on encounters than any other bonuses. Stamina doesn't mean the scout can completely avoid encounters, and a sniping role that wouldn't involve direct encounters is better served by the tank to absorb counter sniping fire than stamina/profile. Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Melai For'Aiur Shining Flame Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:13:00 - [196] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Let's all keep in mind the Amarr are long distance fighters. Giving them the ability to dominate in short range innately over other suits (minmatar and gallente) is not the way to go for balance sake. Amarr are "typically" long-distance fighters. With no tank shooting at range, they're liable to get dropped by the guy with the rail rifle they're shooting at. Shotgun scouts are effective because of the high damage and difficulty tracking a target up-close (you have to turn more) when you're surprised. If they're sniping, then it doesn't matter what suit they're wearing, but one with more than 2 high slots and more tank would be much better. A scrambler bonus makes sense in being an alternative to that shotgun-style of play, and a Tactical Scrambler is "kinda" long-range... for a sidearm. I think a bonus to Scrambler rifles would be more OP (though acceptable to some would-be Amarr scouts I'm sure). The clip-size bonus isn't quite the imbalance as a flat damage or headshot bonus would be either. Alternatively, they could get a range bonus to sidearms or scrambler rifles/pistols. That's fitting with long-distance fighting.
Freya Tegley Algintal Core Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:24:00 - [197] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults?
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5775	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:25:00 - [198] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Marad''er wrote: Stop throwing **** at each other. Compromise on a bonus. I proposed 10% per level. Is that too much? Do you want it to stay at 5%? I think 10% is still too great of a bonus. 50% extra stamina is friggin huge. Thats an enormous stamina pool with even a single card reg and you have to realize people will fit those to get infinite stamina. But would it not be the same thing as any other scout using two complex cardiac regulators to get infinite stamina? And yes you can argue slot layout, but you can't ignore the Gal scout which has the same slot layout. And if you are running a scout, you HAVE to at least get your profile below 28 dB, Amarr scout would need to use one it's lows to do that and Gal would not, so it is fair to compare a Gal scout with 2 compelx cardiacs to an Amarr scout with 1. It wouldn't be the same as all other scouts as they have much lower base stats. Two complex card regs on other scouts besides gal would never happen as its just not effective and you use most of your slots. The only better base stats the Amarr have is the 30 extra HP (37.5 at max skills) and the stamina/stamina regen. You then fit a the Gal scout like I told you, and the stamina and stamina regen benefits go away (you're looking at a 1 second difference in a full stamina recovery, check out first post). Plus Gal scout also has inherent 3 hp/s armor repair. Hardly much lower base stats. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12440	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:27:00 - [199] - Quote Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 477	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:29:00 - [200] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 Is there? Is it being raised or lowered? GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY

Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 127	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:29:00 - [201] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right? If you choose to be a less stealthy Gal Scout, no problem, that's what you want to do, don't take advantage of your bonuses, that's what you choose to do, it doesn't make your choice make your choice any more stupid or smart, it's how you feel you can make the most of what you have to fit your playstyle. But keep in mind what you forsake, playing outside of a suits bonus puts you at a disadvantage in the suit's respective role, if I want to be stealthy, I'll choose Gal and maximize it's for stealth, if I want to know where my enemy is at all time, I'll go with Cal and keep my distance, if I want sabotage my enemies defense, I'll pick Min and max my speed, I can decide to deviate from these roles if I please but I will always be at a disadvantage compared to those that specialize in a role I pick. If you want to tank in a Gal suit, that's fine, you could have just used an Amarr, if you want to use an Amarr instead of a Gal for stealth too, it's all good, just keep in mind that you will still be comparatively weaker to the suit you're trying to imitate.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3291	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:47:00 - [202] - Quote Absoliav wrote: True Adamance wrote: Absoliav wrote: Marad''er wrote: I have been a scout since uprising came out. I have probably the most PC experience as a scout in the game. I'm here to say speed > stamina. Especially in PC. That's right I said it. Note : for combat purposes. Also with shotgun Speed < EHP, especially since the return of AA. Imagine shotgunning without dying with the beat of an eyelash and only being slightly slower than a Gal, while rarely having to stop to catch your breath. You do realise the Gall Scout can be faster when brick tanked, only have 37 less HP, and be 25% harder to detect, in addition of having a built in ADV repper .....you do right? If you choose to be a less stealthy Gal Scout, no problem, that's what you want to do, don't take advantage of your bonuses, that's what you choose to do, it doesn't make your choice make your choice any more stupid or smart, it's how you feel you can make the most of what you have to fit your playstyle. But keep in mind what you forsake, playing outside of a suits bonus puts you at a disadvantage in the suit's respective role, if I want to be stealthy, I'll choose Gal and maximize it's for stealth, if I want to know where my enemy is at all time, I'll go with Cal and keep my distance, if I want sabotage my enemies defense, I'll pick Min and max my speed, I can decide to deviate from these roles if I please but I will always be at a disadvantage compared to those that specialize in a role I pick. If you want to tank in a Gal suit, that's fine, you could have just used an Amarr, if you want to use an Amarr instead of a Gal for stealth too, it's all good, just keep in mind that you will still be comparatively weaker to the suit you're trying to imitate. The point seems to have been that the Gallente is better than the Amarr at being a tank, because it would retain a speed advantage with only a slight hp difference, as well as having built-in reps and more stealth. Join my cult.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12442	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:49:00 - [203] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 Is there? Is it being raised or lowered? It will take longer to make kills with various weapons. That 30 HP may mean much more. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3292	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:54:00 - [204] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. Join my cult.
Arrach Sarkal Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:09:00 - [205] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here and go with his previous suggestion that a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. This sort of balance only works in the short term, at best. Neither skillpoints or ISK are zero-sum, both are inflationary. Tying balance of anything to the perceived value of either at a fixed point in time is doomed to failure. Or to put it another way, if you've been playing for any length of time, the value of X skillpoints to you today is less than the same number a month, six months or a year ago. Peg balance of a suit (or anything else) to that and the same will happen to that.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12445	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:11:00 - [206] - Quote Arguing skill points is almost irrelevant at times. Its like trying to balance by isk . CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 5781	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:12:00 - [207] - Quote Arrach Sarkal wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Son-Of A-Gun wrote: Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument. This is perhaps the best counter argument I heard and I do not have anything to go against this at this time. So I am inclined to agree with Son-Of A-Gun here and go with his previous suggestion that a 10% per level bonus as well as a small secondary bonus would be a better approach. This sort of balance only works in the short term, at best. Neither skillpoints or ISK are zero-sum, both are inflationary. Tying balance of anything to the perceived value of either at a fixed point in time is doomed to failure. Or to put it another way, if you've been playing for any length of time, the value of X skillpoints to you today is less than the same number a month, six months or a year ago. Peg balance of a suit (or anything else) to that and the same will happen to that. Arrach, notice I stated adding a separate secondary bonus in addition to simply 10% per level, that way it can still remain on par. If this were the case, then the Amarr would still have to skill into cardiac regulation, negating the SP argument, but would still have an even value to its bonus. I definitely agree with your sentiment. ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 105	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:15:00 - [208] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Lets compromise. 10% per level. That's it. Is that too much IWS and igniteable aura? I can agree with 10% but it has to be applied to stamina and not regen regen stays with the 5% Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 128	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:16:00 - [209] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. This is a very good point, and a good analogy to go with, at this time we should all just wait and see how things pan out.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12445	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:17:00 - [210] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. Arguably so is the new stamina bonuses and sensor bonuses on these new scout builds. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked



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