DUST Search - Someone counter this argument on Amarr Scout bonus

All Channels

General Discussions

Someone counter this argument on Amarr Scout bonus

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12424	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:10:00 - [1] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either to the bonus outside of reducing the number of modules not fit. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12426	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:42:00 - [2] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either. It does, because the current 5% per level puts the Amarr scout at about 29 seconds of sprint, which isn't quite the same as "infinite sprint" like the other scouts would have in the detailed math of my original post to this thread. /me plugs in an additional 5% per level. for a total of 50% at lvl 5 Marathon Fits (regulators) Ak. 7.29 m/s 1767.90 meters covered a cycle Mk. 7.81 m/s 1091.68 meters covered a cycle Gk. 7.53 m/s 1102.09 meters covered a cycle Ck. 7.49 m/s 816 meters covered a cycle Nekkid (no bonus) Ak. 6.93 m/s 194 meters covered a cycle Mk. 7.40 m/s 200 meters covered a cycle Gk. 7.08 m/s 188 meters covered a cycle Ck. 7.08 m/s 188 meters covered a cycle Bonused Nekkid Ak. 6.93 m/s 292.3 meters covered a cycle Dash Fits (Kin kats) Ak. 22.39 m/s 906 meters covered a cycle Mk. 21.25 m/s 573 meters covered a cycle Gk. 22.66 m/s 604 meters covered a cycle Ck. 15.58 m/s 415 meters covered a cycle CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12427	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:54:00 - [3] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I will also state it again Modules and Bonuses and Innate stats of the suit are inseparable. Prove me wrong by giving the amarr bonus to the caldari. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12430	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:02:00 - [4] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Moduled and Bonused Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Moduled and Bonused Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Nekked Stealth Tied Sensors Tied Bonused Nekkid Stealth Gallente 1st Amarr Caldari Minmatar 2nd Sensors Caldari 1st Amarr Gallente Minmatar 2nd CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12430	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:10:00 - [5] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IWS, you can't compare an Amarr scout with bonus AND module to the other scouts just with module. Did you even read the OP? I explained why this is a fallacy. Cant you read? Nekkid Nekkid (bonused) I was looking at the marathon stats and saw the difference between Amarr and the others and jumped a little quickly, my apologies. Still, the marathon max'd out stamina bonus comparison does not have any value as after adding one complex cardiac regulator to any scout you don't need to worry about stamina anymore. And you also do not include the comparison of Amarr with bonus versus other scouts with module, which is the most important comparison. If the Amarr scout bonus is only 5% per level, it gets 28.1 seconds of sprint. Now say it adds a complex codebreaker to get the same hacking speed as a Minmatar scout. Since the Minmatar scout doesn't need to use a module to get that hacking speed, he can use the slot instead for a complex cardiac regulator. So now the Amarr and Minmatar scout both have the same hacking speed, except the Amarr scout can sprint for 28.1 seconds and the Minmatar scout can sprint for 44.1 seconds (all while being faster too!). Please, tell me how this is valid. Stealth Ranking Gallente 1st Amarr 2nd Mimatar 3rd Caldari 4th Sensors Caldari 1st Minmatar 2nd Gallente 3rd Amarr 4th Have any reasoning behind this? Or just some arbitrary system set up by yourself? 1 Scan Profile, Sig Rad, Scan Range are equal on across ALL scout suits. 2 When moduled and no bonuses profile damps will favor those with the most low slots, thus caldari will rank worst, minmatar mid grade and gallente and amarr ranking first 2.a bonus thrown in gallente pulls ahead due to natural suit properties because of the bonus. 3. Inversely Scan range or profiling are invertedly opposite favoring high slots. with no bonuses caldari are alone superior in this, minmatar being mid grade and amarr and gallente scoring the worst points. 3a since gallente have also range amplification bonus the caldari will still pull ahead due to able to fit one more module than the gallente can in range. One does not need math to figure this out. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12433	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:19:00 - [6] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Low slot/high slot count But scanning isn't just high slots, in fact I'd argue that scan radius, which goes on low slots, is far more important. A scout already has a scan precision of 45 dB. With level 5 precision and one complex precision enhancer, it goes to 32.4 dB. You can pretty much scan most targets besides scouts with that alone. The real test to scanning is how far out you can scan them. There's two different jobs here. Precision is required for find scouts. Thus their scan ability's are much better. A large radius is worthless if you can't see anything. I'd ratke a small radius (20+m) where I can see EVERYONE over a large radius where I can only see some people. Low slots are more important for scout like behavior than high slots. This the reason why the gallente has been the superior scout for a long time. But most the combatants on the battlefield aren't going to be scouts. You can scan virtually every non-scout with just one high slot, so how far out you can scan these becomes much more important.. And with scouts and cloaks, it doesn't matter much if you can passively scan them if you don't see them until they're already in close. You mean no high slots, provided they don't stealth up either. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12433	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:20:00 - [7] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Practical applications of stamina and paper applications of stamina are much different and you really have to realize that. Right, I cannot tell you how many times I have died in this shinobi event because I ran out of moose juice at worst time. Roles the Amarr Scout suit will fulfill Recon Sniper Scout Sniper Skirmisher EOD Demolitions Skirmisher Perimeter Defense Intercept CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12434	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:31:00 - [8] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I sincerely hope CCP has more logic and reasoning than all you people who simply say "It looks good because I run scout and can look at things practically." I run proto scouts too, you know They do have more logic. Why do you think I am arguing with you over how silly this looks? CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12434	Posted - 2014.01.21 20:32:00 - [9] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: IgniteableAura wrote: Again the bonus itself has nothing to do with replacement of mods but what it CAN DO if optimized. Running forever at >10m/s = broken. Oh thank you for saying this! Scout gk.0 optimized with 2 complex kinetic catalyzers and 2 complex cardiac regulators Sprint speed: 9.53 m/s Stamina: 82 seconds Scout gk.0 optimized with 3 complex kinetic catalyzers and 1 complex cardiac regulator Sprint: 10.22 m/s Stamina: 42 seconds Care to continue your argument about optimized fits? Going to quote myself here since everyone is now complaining that it is unfair to the Minmatar scout because it only gets 3 lows, but here is something to chew on for the Gallente scout with the same slot layout. Based on initial information Gallente will be the BEST cloaker suit, PERIOD. Amarr would be nearly third worst despite the same slot layout CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12439	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:10:00 - [10] - Quote Nikea Nei wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: ... This leaves Amarr to use the other following low slot bonuses to synergize stamina, max stamina, max speed, cpu, grid, armor plate efficiency. Max speed is not going to get touched due to technical reasons of the engine and it is by far one of of the heaviest weighed stat (hence stacking penalties, and low overall available multiplier bonuses). Speed is almost nearly a multiplier to the defensive score (instead of an additive) due to compounding effects for a player to choosing when to disengage from a fight. While scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit, it mustn't be the sole option of combat. Eve Online which didn't have the technical problems did have an oversight on speed once and took many patches to destroy it. Essentially one battleship in the game became the fastest ship of all other ships, so fast to the point nobody could reliably engage it for more than a second and when combined with high alpha strike weapons it nearly was impossible to kill while he wove into fleet formations and soloed the entire group. With that we have armor plate efficency, while this would work it would be unscout like, and threatens to role stomp on the assaults. CPU/PG? worst bonus ever if its the only one of the class with it. High Slot bonuses? ignore the suit cannot support nor synergize with it and would be considered a nerf. Max Stamina and Recovery are the only two left for Amarr which makes more sense considering amarr have some of the best energy systems in the game. Maybe if there were other modules that consumed stamina would there be far more value in this like super jumps, slides and other evasive maneuvers. Here's what I got from all this... Speed is nearly a multiplier to the defensive score... -I'm glad you admit this and you're aware of how much this matters Scouts are supposed to excel at this over any other suit... -also true, speed is meant to be the larger factor with a scout, as opposed to ehp, etc. Unfortunately, the base speed of the Amarr scout is slower than a Minmatar assault, which means the Amarr scout doesn't have that "advantage" to the extent of other scouts. Max speed can't be changed for technical reasons... -So, this speed discrepancy between the Amarr as a "scout" and the assaults can't be rectified? That... seems to present some balance issues, but lets continue. Armor plates would be unscout-like. - I agree, because a scout would be a half-assed tank at best with the low starting ehp, and tanking isn't meant to be their role ..threatens to role-stomp the assaults -Any buff large enough to make a difference would role stomp, and any too small would just make them a crappier assault. That makes sense I think. There's a problem here. Speed is THE scout thing, but the fact Minmatar assault has as much/more than the Amarr scout isn't considered role-stomping? Is that role-stomp just considered "Ok" because "technical reasons". You've admitted that the speed is nearly a multiplier to defense and it's the "scout's" thing. If the fastest assault suit has the speed advantage on the speed suit out of the box AND the hp advantage... what exactly is left? if there were other modules that consumed stamina there might be more value -This an admission of the limited value of a stamina bonus, and yes, if there were more things that used stamina it might be more useful. Of course, there AREN'T more things that use stamina. It sounds like you're basically saying the Amarr scout is screwed on speed, but they can't threaten the arena of assaults (which already trample on the Amarr scout's domain). Stamina is the only thing that makes sense, and maybe some day it'll be made useful after they add a bunch of features they haven't even intimated at being in development. Yeah. Even with a stamina bonus, the Amarr scout's speed gimp will make it the worst scout. Movement speed while strafing, etc. will have a larger impact on encounters than any other bonuses. Stamina doesn't mean the scout can completely avoid encounters, and a sniping role that wouldn't involve direct encounters is better served by the tank to absorb counter sniping fire than stamina/profile. Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12440	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:27:00 - [11] - Quote Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12442	Posted - 2014.01.21 21:49:00 - [12] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Freya Tegley wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Nikea Nei wrote: ...wall of text... Well just saying while meters a second for amarr scout is low, throw in sprinting and start factoring longer time frames, amarrian isn't that much slower than the caldari and gallente clocking in at 7.05 true vs 7.08 true (same for cal and gal) with minnie pulling ahead at 7.4 true speeds before bonuses or modules are factored in. He is not great in cqc as you stated for those reasons by in a stand off fight from cover to cover he perform rather more admirably than any other scout. Close flanking near sight of the enemy not the amarr scout's deal, but long range flanking out of mind will be the amarrian scout's forte. His best utilization is desaturation of hostile forces and prevent formation in a front line. Longer time frames running have a large situational aspect, as I've seldom run out of stamina without any stamina mods as a scout. Movement speed is always relevant. More admirable than "other scout" is rather faint praise, as the hp advantage is slight in comparison with the speed difference. Squishy suits fare poorly at range because they're more easily picked off by CR/RR/SR users. Making use of speed is chiefly a CQC advantage combat-wise. Is there some compelling reason why they couldn't just adjust assault speeds down so that the low end of the scout still has a speed advantage over the top end of the assaults? You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 Is there? Is it being raised or lowered? It will take longer to make kills with various weapons. That 30 HP may mean much more. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12445	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:11:00 - [13] - Quote Arguing skill points is almost irrelevant at times. Its like trying to balance by isk . CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12445	Posted - 2014.01.21 22:17:00 - [14] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: You also have to account there is a TTK adjustment in 1.8 It is difficult to account for that, the cost of a cloak, or make comparisons to assaults/logis (likely to have stat changes it would seem) without knowing the details on those items. A lot of the feedback we've been asked to give on suits/weapons could change given full context. Even on the weapon details we've been provided (Magsec, etc.) it isn't clear if those are already adjusted for new TTK or not, since weapon adjustments were in the cards apparently. It's like being asked to comment on a contract after seeing half a page. Arguably so is the new stamina bonuses and sensor bonuses on these new scout builds. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Copyright © 2013-2024, Chribba - OMG Labs. All Rights Reserved. - perf 0,03s, ref 20241114/2136
EVE-Online™/DUST514™ and EVE/DUST514 imagery © CCP.

bitcoin: 1CHRiBBArqpw5Yz7x5KS2RRtN5ubEn5gF

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.