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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
996
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Posted - 2014.01.21 06:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite.
The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp.
I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
996
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Posted - 2014.01.21 06:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:alright, counter argument against 20%, sure I'll bite.
The cardiac regulator is one of the very few modules where once you equip one you hardly feel the need to ever equip another. Giving the Amarr the 20% Bonus, in order to equate to a complex, would be the equivalent of giving the Gal or Cal a 500% bonus to scan radius (which would be necessary to get them up to around 80m scan radius), so that they would have no need to ever equip a range amp.
I could support a 10% bonus but not a 20%. Explain your reasoning a bit more? Particularly how it relates to the stats I posted comparing the results of the Amarr stamina bonus compared to other scouts using a single complex cardiac regulator, and how it is fair to make that comparison. Not trying to be a jerk, I am very open to hearing what you have to say, however I'd like a little more detail and logic (esepcially behind how you got that 500% number) so I can better understand your point of view.
First the 500% number would be total bonus so 100%/Lv. Actually I think the number would be more like 400%. I was thinking the current base stat (16m) instead of the 1.8 base stat (20m). So 80m/Lv.
My reasoning is quite simple. I am quite satisfied with my current scan radius of 73m (will be 76 in 1.8 if I remember the numbers right). In order to achieve that scan radius, it requires me to equip two complex range amps. Hence the utility of these respective modules is not equal, because noone ever has need/desire to equip two card regs.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
996
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Posted - 2014.01.21 06:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp.
Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
997
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Posted - 2014.01.21 07:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:One thing to correct you on is the complex mod for Gal we are comparing this to is profile dampening, not the 25% more range which is only a standard range amp. Dampen era would be even worse. You would need to get my Gal scout below 10.6 dB, in order to beat ALL scanners. I don't feel like doing the math on this, but I can tell you, it is a lot. But whatever it is, the Gal scout would require one less low slot to achieve it than the Amarr scout (using this comparison because they have the same slot layout). So freeing up that one extra low slot is then equivalent to the Amarr scout not needing to apply a green and freeing up one low slot.
I see wher you are coming from. I just think that ten % and something else small would be a better idea. Personally, I think a small bonus to clock field active time or clock cost to activate would be cool.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
997
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Posted - 2014.01.21 07:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Actually skilling card regs to Lv 5, in order to use the complex regs (which the a-scout would never have to do with a 20% bonus) it is a quite large SP sink that would only affect the other races. This is another reason for a 10% argument.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1000
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Posted - 2014.01.21 08:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Absoliav wrote:
But would you skip putting a damp on a Cal scout just cause of a native bonus?
If yes, then that's just silly to skip on a clear advantage, judging from the stats on the A-Scout, it is clearly built to last longer then the other scouts, it has more total health, four lows and more stamina/recov than the others, unlike Cal and Gal, you wouldn't have to use two slots to get the most out of it's bonus as Gal would need to reserve two slots just to take advantage of it's bonuses, Amarr would only need one and would have five free slots to take advantage of it's higher durability.
The M-Scout forsakes defense for the sake of offense with speed, the A-Scout will be it's opposite, durability will be it's strong point, the just like it always has for Amarr.
The Cal scout has no native bonus to dampening, you are thinking th Gal scout? And a couple things, 1) I am not too sure the A-Scout is built to last longer. It only has 30 more HP, but at total HP values as low as scouts that doesn't really mean as much as movement speed for dodging bullets, and the Amarr scout has the least movement speed. Saying the Amarr scout is built to last longer is thus entirely subjective. 2) While the Cal and Gal scout would still need to apply profile dampeners/precision enhancers, the amount they need to apply would be 1 slot less than what the Amarr scout would need to apply to get comparable values. This saving of one slot is equivalent to the Amarr saving one slot by not needing a Cardiac regulator. Of course, as Son-Of A-Gun pointed out, this means the Amarr can save skill points by not needing to spec into cardiac regulation at all, so a 20% bonus per level isn't exactly fair. He suggested instead it is a 10% per level bonus along with a small secondary bonus, which sounds good and in line with the other bonuses.
Alright then, this is good progress. The next step, I think, is to start making these ideas a [feedback] thread in the feedback section of the forums.
What you should do is, write up the ideas fostered in this thread as well as several acceptable "other small bonuses" and post it in the feed back section with a link to this thread so the DEVs can appreciate/understand how we arrived at where we are now.
Then you should also start a new thread in GD and gather more opinions on "other small bonuses" and link that thread to the feedback thread, and ask for the GD community to help you keep the feedback thread alive in the OP of the new GD thread.
I think that that would just about do it.
{:)}{3GÇó>
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1000
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Posted - 2014.01.21 08:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77
Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1002
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Posted - 2014.01.21 08:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Son-Of A-Gun, I'll probably get to that sometime tomorrow as I want to make the thread very clear and well written. You have a skype so I can perhaps get in contact with you sometime before posting and let you see the rough draft? My skype ID is seventy_x_seven77 Actually I don't have a Skype, but you can contact me via the in game chat channel "3OD Public" just to confirm that is a capital O not a zero. After that we can exchange email. I'll be on at around 12:00pm PST, and will be around for quite a while. By the way, with that like I welcome you to the ranks for Forum Warrior  Yep! He's at 1k now! Congrats! ONE OF US. ONE OF US. ONE OF US. I really need to go to sleep......
It would have been a long time ago if I hadn't kept getting banned. My Ignoble Son character (my main account) has about 500 or so likes too, but he is currently banned till mid Feb. 
Sadly I did not even know I was about to break 1000. For the last week I haven't been able to see any "poster" information other than their name and I have no idea what the problem is or how to fix it. But I appreciate you letting me know.
Yay me. Forum warrior Lv 1 alright.
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2014.01.21 19:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:How long could a Proto Amarr scout run with a complex reg+100 percent boost from the optimal skill? That's with lows filled with complex regs. With current stats(5%) AK 1443 Meters MK 1057 Meters GK 1065 Meters CK 780 Meters This argument in particular I find holds little value because, as you already stated there would be no reason for an Amarr scout to fit a cardiac regulator, let alone 4, and likewise any other race to equip more than 1. And in that case, we are back to the values presented in the first post. Then an additional n% has no value either to the bonus outside of reducing the number of modules not fit.
When does an additional n% have no value? Jump much?
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Son-Of A-Gun
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2014.01.21 23:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Geez, you guys have been very busy in this thread, and from what I have read, and hopfully understood, things seem to have gotten confused some what. There seems to be far to many absolutist positioning/argument countering going on than actual exchanging of ideas and compromise.
So, what have we so far?
1. 5% max/regen: The original bonus, is there anyone how thinks that this alone is a fair bonus?
2. 20% max/regen: this has been pretty much ruled out, and I believe that there are very few, if any, still arguing for it.
3. 10% max/regen: arguments are still raging against even this level of bonus as being to much. While it has been suggested by others that this in addition to a small other side bonus would be fair (I have suggested a small bonus to cloak field others a bonus to scrambler pistols or ferroscale plates etc.)
4. 10% max 5% regen: may this not be the compromise we need considering the heated debate still raging over "3."? This in addition to some other small side bonus?
5. 5% max/regen + other small bonus: is this the compromise that needs to be made?
We need to strat working more together, to try to achieve a compromise that we can present to CCP. If we cannot then we are surly at the mercy of what ever CCP decide, for better or worse
We need to start proposing ideas, and bickering less, and accept that though our ideas and points may feel entirely proper/valid rarely are they perfect. Learn to compromise.
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