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CPM: Petition to CCP Regarding Cloaks

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Tech De Ra Electronic Sports League 272	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:01:00 - [121] - Quote Mirroring the kz3 cloak is probably the best way to go Being able to fire while cloaked will be crazy OP if there isnt a hard counter, but if there is a hard counter to it then i doubt that cloaking will have a use outside of pub matches at all light weapons and sidearms should not be able to fire while cloaked, the only exception in my eyes might be the nova knives Melee should be able to be used while cloaked ideally, provided that you decloak when you use it Tech De Ra for CPM1
DISGRUNTLEDev Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 249	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:04:00 - [122] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1702030#post1702030
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2508	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:04:00 - [123] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: All I have to say the delay between decloak and shooting for scouts better be short as hell. Like, insanely short. I can get within 3m of an enemy without a cloak, fire, and have him turn around and kill me in a couple shots. If I have to decloak with a loud ass noise, wait a second, then fire you will have more scout deaths than before because it will hinder more than it will help. This will be even more worthless since Minjas will be the least stealthy and shittiest with cloaks. I'm okay with having to decloak to fire but it needs to be able to happen fluidly, fast, and natural. The more cumbersome this mechanic is for scouts the more you will be hurting the class. This should not be used to merely help a scout cross an open field or cross the street. This needs to help them IN COMBAT as well as out of it. Some really good points. For me the line in the sand is that you have to decloak before you fire. Everything else is up in the air. There just needs to be a firewall between actively cloaking and firing a weapon. I agree it needs to be fluid process, but the line of shooting while cloaked should not be crossed. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 609	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:13:00 - [124] - Quote Baltazar Pontain wrote: Can someone explain me why this topic is so hot discussed? Has CCP delivered some hard facts about cloacking I have missed? If not I suggest to cool down and wait until they have delivered. If yes, can someone post me the link? As someone who has played a lot of Team Fortress 2, the Spy class (with cloak) has consistently been the class with the most balancing issues, so it makes sense to learn from the harsh lessons learned by previous games instead of making the same mistakes. "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1477	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:19:00 - [125] - Quote /Signed. /me goes back to KZ:SF where the Scout can melee while cloaked, but not fire any weapon, yet can still dominate. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2512	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:31:00 - [126] - Quote DISGRUNTLEDev wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1702030#post1702030 Yeah, I definitely see how the cloak on other suits could become a big issue especially when CPU and PG differences are taken into account. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9835	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:36:00 - [127] - Quote Scouts should just receive a straight up 50% reduction to fitting requirements for cloak, and keep their current per level bonus / get a new one. Assault Dropship Montage Incubus Pilot, AV Specialist, Fat Scout DUST addict
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2512	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:37:00 - [128] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Scouts should just receive a straight up 50% reduction to fitting requirements for cloak, and keep their current per level bonus / get a new one. In terms of the Scout role as I whole I would tend to agree. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
Oswald Rehnquist 1039	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:40:00 - [129] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Scouts should just receive a straight up 50% reduction to fitting requirements for cloak, and keep their current per level bonus / get a new one. which was my sentiment as well, I have no issues with neutering cloak if the scout wasn't tied to it role and racial for some. We need new racials/role if the cloak is getting nerfed Below 28 dB
Rusty Shallows 734	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:40:00 - [130] - Quote sammus420 wrote: Can we at least try it out before we get all wound up about it? I said the same thing about 1.7 and have ended up regretting it ever since. The Devs only react to stressed repetitive simplistic responses, careful analysis seems wasted. We need to force the Devs to think. Otherwise we will continue to get these lackluster results. As for firing while cloaked No: If mediums frames can do it. Yes: If only Scouts can do it (no Light Frames or future Light Frame Specializations getting on the action). Scouts need a buff and have been waiting for the promised "love" since July of 2013. Nerf it later if it breaks the game. MCC Lounge Lizard Forums > Game Fix the game CCP

jerrmy12 kahoalii The Phoenix Federation 301	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:40:00 - [131] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Scouts should just receive a straight up 50% reduction to fitting requirements for cloak, and keep their current per level bonus / get a new one. They need a slight hp and cpu/pg increase I use a tablet so beware of typos
Admonishment The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 56	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:41:00 - [132] - Quote I noticed the word balance used a lot in this post, where was this "balance" when scouts were forced to go on patch after patch being gimped against mediums able to do the job of a scout better than the scout? Pretty confident most the names on here did not utter a single word against that. Where is the "balance" when someone spends less sp to gain a prototype scanner when scouts have to spend double or triple that amount just to attempt to counter? Scouts have no role its just simply hard mode for people that decided not to do the most common setup and they have been penalized for it ever since. Soon as they get some kind of attention however that's when the "balance" threads start popping up daily lol. I have been asking for months on end why Gallente scout gains a high slot at adv but losses it at proto, when they should just gain a third low slot at adv. Never got a reply. Scouts in general have been gimped for long enough, I guess shooting or knifing someone with perfect accuracy in the back just to have them turn around and hip fire you to death instantly is balanced lol. I also noticed people saying what a scouts role is when they have none, in the description is says assassin/infiltrator but I see people saying they are for intel gathering, I don't see many people playing scout just to gather intel, it would be a very boring and pointless role to do when someone can just equip a scanner and spam that while doing the 360 dance. Scanners took that ability away from scouts since anyone with an equipment slot can equip them. Scouts should be able to effectively do what their description says as a specialty, not what someone that never bothered investing the points into them thinks. I have seen and heard plenty of that enough already. Its been AR/Tank/medium suit 514 before, how about it be balanced game 514 and actually have incentive to use something other than a bricked medium/heavy suit with a combat/rail rifle. Diversity is needed badly in this game, if certain people had their way it would all just be AR variants in the kill feed and its pretty close to that already. Level 5 Proficiency in basket weaving.
DISGRUNTLEDev Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 256	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:42:00 - [133] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Scouts should just receive a straight up 50% reduction to fitting requirements for cloak, and keep their current per level bonus / get a new one. They need a slight hp and cpu/pg increase Now we have to wait another year for a buff! Stop talking about it.
True Adamance Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5495	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:46:00 - [134] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: It's difficult to pass judgment when no hard numbers are available on cooldown, duration, fire cost, ect. The system sounds similar to Killzone 3 which I actually rather liked, however this is not the same as cloaks are in EVE. For those of you who don't know, most cloaks in EVE operate like this: Movement Speed Reduced by 90% Unable to use any weapons or modules while cloaked Any ship within 2500m will decloak your ship There is a delay after you decloak before you can lock on and use modules. Perhaps add more limitations to the proposed cloaking, such as a movement penalty and excessive cooldown time. Then offer a variant (Covert-Ops?) which does not include movement penalty and a shorter cooldown, but you are unable to fire your weapon until x-seconds after decloaking? The first would benefit snipers and those who need to stay hidden for long periods of time without moving. The latter would benefit those who want to play more of a field support role, but not a combat one. A harsh penalty for Scouts in this game though. Fair analysis though. To a Texan like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Gunlogi. Reference = ISK
Nazz'Dragg planetary retaliation organisation 23	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:47:00 - [135] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Dear CCP and the Community of Dust 514, I would like it to be made publicly and clearly known that the CPM does not support the ability to fire a weapon while cloaked. If you support this (and even if you don't) I encourage you to post your thoughts so that CCP can hear our voices and change the course away from what would be a game-breaking mechanic. The devil is always in the details, but I think we can all agree that firing while cloaking is a line in the sand that CCP must not cross. /signed Kain Spero of CPM 0 If scouts are getting the TF2 spy clocking devices, heavies should get the pyro heavy flame thrower. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lum_B9Scwo8#t=0m17s I would never of thought about that myself, Thanks.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 9837	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:48:00 - [136] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Scouts should just receive a straight up 50% reduction to fitting requirements for cloak, and keep their current per level bonus / get a new one. In terms of the Scout role as I whole I would tend to agree. I think pigeon holing the scout role by tying its performance bonuses only to the cloak is a bad way to go. Personally I'd like to see the pilot suit scrapped, scouts buffed to be more of a skirmisher role, and a new covert ops light frame added which is built from the ground up with cloak in mind. But that's just me. Assault Dropship Montage Incubus Pilot, AV Specialist, Fat Scout DUST addict
Akdhar Saif Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 165	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:51:00 - [137] - Quote Totally Agree. +1 Signed.
DISGRUNTLEDev Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 257	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:52:00 - [138] - Quote Nazz'Dragg wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Dear CCP and the Community of Dust 514, I would like it to be made publicly and clearly known that the CPM does not support the ability to fire a weapon while cloaked. If you support this (and even if you don't) I encourage you to post your thoughts so that CCP can hear our voices and change the course away from what would be a game-breaking mechanic. The devil is always in the details, but I think we can all agree that firing while cloaking is a line in the sand that CCP must not cross. /signed Kain Spero of CPM 0 If scouts are getting the TF2 spy clocking devices, heavies should get the pyro heavy flame thrower. I'll take it!
Lazy Bass The Generals General Tso's Alliance 47	Posted - 2014.01.09 23:58:00 - [139] - Quote Signed Dust 514 Primera League EU tournament winner Director of The Generals Slayer of Frogs
Benjamin Ciscko The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1170	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:02:00 - [140] - Quote My opinion is cloak should make you virtually invisible you show a shimmer and the and at higher levels your cloak lasts longer and the shimmer visibility decreases. You MUST de cloak before firing, you can use nova knives while cloaked but may not charge them a single hit point of damage deactivates cloak (excluding fall damage). I have no background knowledge on how cloaks will work so some of my recommendations may be in the plan already. Caldari Tanker/Minmatar Assault Forum warrior lvl 1

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 6354	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:05:00 - [141] - Quote Check out @Henry_Haphorn's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Henry_Haphorn/status/421427485524627456 Retweet when you have the chance so that CCP can see this. CCP Remnant, take note. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Asha Starwind VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 95	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:09:00 - [142] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Baltazar Pontain wrote: Can someone explain me why this topic is so hot discussed? Has CCP delivered some hard facts about cloacking I have missed? If not I suggest to cool down and wait until they have delivered. If yes, can someone post me the link? As someone who has played a lot of Team Fortress 2, the Spy class (with cloak) has consistently been the class with the most balancing issues, so it makes sense to learn from the harsh lessons learned by previous games instead of making the same mistakes. Well, if you played enough TF2 you would know that the uncontested problem child of TF2 is the Demoman which has just about been the recipient of almost every type of nerf imaginable, and runners up being the pyro and heavy. The spy has been one of the more balanced classed in TF2, there has never been an imbalance with the spy or the default spy kit (cloak included) but instead with weapons and equip added later on, notably the enforcer(OP), dead ringer (while feigning death, 80% dr that can be maintained indef with ammo, closest to god mode I've ever been in a game PvP, damn near unkillable), saharan spy set(silent cloak) and the ambassador(OP).
Harken Torkal Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 26	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:16:00 - [143] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: All I have to say the delay between decloak and shooting for scouts better be short as hell. Like, insanely short. I can get within 3m of an enemy without a cloak, fire, and have him turn around and kill me in a couple shots. If I have to decloak with a loud ass noise, wait a second, then fire you will have more scout deaths than before because it will hinder more than it will help. GÇª This should not be used to merely help a scout cross an open field or cross the street. This needs to help them IN COMBAT as well as out of it. Some really good points. For me the line in the sand is that you have to decloak before you fire. Everything else is up in the air. There just needs to be a firewall between actively cloaking and firing a weapon. I agree it needs to be fluid process, but the line of shooting while cloaked should not be crossed. Having the "cloaking cortex" equitable and thus having to switch to a weapon to shoot solves the issue: you can switch and be shooting as your cloak dissolves (loud noise or not). The philosophy in EVE used to be "release new features pre-nerfed." That is: release a new feature in such a state that players are not scrambling over each other to get to it. If you release a feature and everyone wants to use it all the time, it's overpowered. If a few adventurous players pick it up and start playing with it, you know you've got it pre-nerfed correctly. Once the feature is working as designed (and common bugs/glitches are sorted out) you can then work on improving the feature. So for example introduce the cloak with a half second decloaking delay (i.e.: from the time you switch weapons to the time pressing the trigger actually causes the weapon to fire), have any interaction decloak the user (e.g.: summoning a vehicle, boarding a vehicle, hacking, activating a repper of any kind), and then work on improved cloak modules which reduce decloaking delay and allow certain actions to be taken while cloaked, such as a non-equip cloak which allows a sniper to aim while cloaked, with a re-cloaking delay after shooting which prevents the sniper simply popping out of cloak to fire, then immediately recloaking. Whether cloaking ends up as a baked-in feature of some suits or not, it should start in a "nerfed" state in which "nobody" will use it. Then gradually improve the utility of the feature until people are using it. If everyone uses it, it's OP.
Mortedeamor 1204	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:44:00 - [144] - Quote CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote: if u are cloaked, u are just that... in stealth mode. being able to do anything aside from moving behind enemy lines undetected will simply cause headaches and issues that can be avoided by actually listening to people now should be just like an active scanner. Personally it should be an innate skill only in scouts, and I could even get on board with it being a part of the suit, not taking up a slot. same rules as a scanner.. has a cooldown period, and you can do nothing except run and jump (and climb) while its activated. ^^ nuff said Im puerto rican we rage deal with it
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 2493	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:46:00 - [145] - Quote I figured that it would be a given that firing would stop the cloak. ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Kigurosaka Laaksonen Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 75	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:47:00 - [146] - Quote "It's difficult to pass judgment when no hard numbers are available on cooldown, duration, fire cost, ect." I couldn't say one way or another. If only there were a server apart from Tranquility where we could test things like this. A test server, if you will.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 189	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:49:00 - [147] - Quote I'm not sure I understand why firing from cloak is so game breaking, particularly as we've already been informed that firing will break cloak, there is a (as of yet undisclosed) cool down after the cloak is broken, and a hard counter is already in game through the active scanner? It will only really be useful for engaging a single suit unaware, and even then it's not an insta win button as most suits take multiple shots to kill. For a bad scout, it means they'll be able to ambush one red without getting killed before they have a chance. In a average scouts hands, it may mean going from being able to ambush one straggler at a time, to being able to ambush two in a group with a chance of taking both. Good scouts don't need the assistance so I doubt very much you'll see a difference there, they're already stringing together kills without being seen. The main use for the cloak will be to hide, stationary, in facilities while you let the enemy team go past, or move between locations with a little extra protection (no chevron and health is great, but the shimmer will still be there). Useful for being able to watch for when to set off REs and counter hack, or cross sniper alley, but it's not going to let you take down a 3-4 players with guns blazing. Also not sure about the cloaked sniper QQ? Sitting in cloak to shoot is a waste. If you're doing it right, no one knows where you are before you shoot, and if I'm shooting you from 300m out, you won't see me after I start shooting either. It's much better used as a defensive device to move between sniping locations, or as an aid for counter sniping to give you a chance to get a shot off before they pop you. From the description given, the cloak leans towards being a defensive device, not an offensive one. Maybe take a couple of deep breaths and think about the implementation before condemning it to the nerf bin?
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 189	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:58:00 - [148] - Quote Harken Torkal wrote: Whether cloaking ends up as a baked-in feature of some suits or not, it should start in a "nerfed" state in which "nobody" will use it. Then gradually improve the utility of the feature until people are using it. If everyone uses it, it's OP. Please don't take this the wrong way, but get ******. Unless you're going to recommend that equipment be nerfed so hard that the new logi bonuses are useless and light weapons are nerfed so hard that assaults don't want to use them, you're just gimping the single most gimped suit in the game because you're worried that there might possibly be a problem in an implementation you haven't seen, based on incomplete information.
Radar R4D-47 0uter.Heaven 298	Posted - 2014.01.10 00:58:00 - [149] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: I liked KZ3 but I also like KZ4 approach to not letting cloaked scout shoot. instead that "assassination tool" is in the form of a OHK knife. Then let cloaked scout have be able to KNIFE. CLOAKING IS USED IN A MAJORITY OF FPS AS A ASSASSINATION TOOL. Look at the description of scout and find the word. If your saying there is no place in dust for OHK, then that a whole other avenue. Along with then a no place for ASSASSIN. Scouts by description tho are not just recon, but assassins. like in any other fps. Agreed with this. Make the cloak intense for CPU pg. Only thing a mini scout carrying a cloak could fit is a sidearm (before core skills 5) so then you can be an assassain and get 1 kill per life. But some things don't get 1shotted by nova knives even uncloaked I will hit someone will a full charge proficiency 5 isha knives and the 1st swipe won't kill them. I believe if this route is taken would be highly effective and balanced.
Free Beers Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1749	Posted - 2014.01.10 01:08:00 - [150] - Quote Honestly, I have zero faith that this will be nothing but a game breaker. I dont understand why Team True Grit works with the community and got changes to PC and the most successful content in dust is FW. Why must you design dust with your fingers stuck in your ears ccp? I honestly think this is where CCP Rouge needs to answer to the community. Is he going to step in and do the right thing or are we still all a riding a captainless ship. [CCP]FoxFour> STFU beers[CCP]FoxFour> Erm [CCP]FoxFour> I mean[CCP]FoxFour> shit [CCP]FoxFour> you were defending me



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