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George Moros Area 514 274	Posted - 2014.01.13 09:36:00 - [331] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: What you say makes sense on many levels, and I share the concerns about other suits easily fitting the cloak. (It is likely a very easy fit for Logi) One concern with the cloak being a "mandatory" fit is that scouts only have one equipment slot, and extremely low ability to fit anything at this point. If scouts can only fit a cloak, and are only "viable" with one, it actually severely limits the versatility and roles that can already be performed. Your example of the NK wielding heavy is very different from a scout only being able to use a cloak. The Heavy still has a number of options open to them where as, if cloak becomes the only viable choice it is eliminating options for the scout suit. Heavies can fit heavy weapons, but it is not required for the fitting to function, that is a very different scenario. We currently don't know if scout dropsuit will have same slot layouts and CPU/PG as before. However, if they do, then 1 equipment slot they have is in essence reserved for cloak, which means they will effectively have no equipment slots. This will make scouts useable only for assassination-style gameplay which, in principle, I've got nothing against except for the fact that the term "scout" is then misleading. I think CCP should consider introducing other light dropsuit roles. Maybe the current layout should be called "assassin", and a "scout" should have 2 equipment slots, and possibly only i sidearm. One other thing to consider (I don't know if anyone mentioned this in this, or other cloak-related threads): Will cloaked mercs be visible to friendly troops or not? If yes, in what way? Will they be fully visible, as if not wearing cloak at all, or will there some other way of making friendlies know where they are? This is especially important in FW, where friendly fire is enabled. What if I see a cloak shimmer in front of me, and (naturally) fire a burst in that direction, only to find out I just killed a cloaked friendly? Pulvereus ergo queritor.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 217	Posted - 2014.01.13 10:30:00 - [332] - Quote helll no that should not be possible, I would even go so far as to say their should be a weapons lock for a short duration afterwards unless you you are running something akin to the COV OPS cloak in eve. I do actually like what little Ive pickup about it reading suit bonuses.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2600	Posted - 2014.01.13 14:20:00 - [333] - Quote Firing while cloaked allows a player to alpha strike and get the upper hand in an engagement and deny the player under attack the ability to respond to the threat effectively. It essentially creates an I-win tool for winning a firefight in many situations especially with the current time to kill. It basically adds a gimmicky mechanic to a tool that could potentially bring a lot of tactical variation to the battlefield. Shooting while cloaked will turn it into something that decreases the enjoyment and how fun Dust is on a whole. I'm already concerned with how much cloaks will slow down the game even if they have no ability to shoot while cloaked. The ability to shoot while cloaked just pushes the mechanic over the top. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news

CCP Logibro C C P C C P Alliance 4254	Posted - 2014.01.13 15:01:00 - [334] - Quote We're aware of the concerns, and it's still something in development. CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics

Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 566	Posted - 2014.01.13 15:25:00 - [335] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Shion Typhon wrote: Because this is what you can do in a game with all those restrictions about not firing with cloaks are present, now double or triple that carnage. I've done this plenty of times, I specialise as a CQC Infiltrator in PS2 Why double or triple that carnage? Here's a link to what we currently know about the dust cloak and it's function. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1709951#post1709951 As to your video, it does indeed look unbalanced. But has very little to do with Dust. From what we do know, someone trying to run through a group of mercs like that would be 'shimmering', so would be noticeable. How noticeable, we don't know yet, because we haven't seen it in action. We also know that firing from cloak will result in you de-cloaking, and the device going into re-charge. Currently we don't know what the cool down time is, so there's no way to say if you can re-cloak that quickly and I won't comment on my opinion. Nothing we know would indicate that the implementation would be anything like the one you've shown, and basing a discussion and nerf requests on what other games are doing is no basis for a rational decision. This is pretty rational. Until someone's playtested it we don't know how well the mechanic will work in practice and considering the exact specifics aren't even nailed down yet, even theoretical conjecture isn't really useful. I think even when it is implemented, there'll be other uses/exploits of the mechanic that may be discovered that no one every thought of, and it's only then that they can move to change it or hotfix it if it's really breaking the game - that being said there are many completely irrational features that made it into the game first and only after a bit of use figures showed there was indeed a problem (list your favourite here: murder taxis, flaylocks, etc.) Of course, this again produces the demand for a comprehensive test server for Dust - but that's another thread entirely. :)
commando biffle Shadow Company HQ 10	Posted - 2014.01.13 15:37:00 - [336] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Firing while cloaked allows a player to alpha strike and get the upper hand in an engagement and deny the player under attack the ability to respond to the threat effectively. It essentially creates an I-win tool for winning a firefight in many situations especially with the current time to kill. It basically adds a gimmicky mechanic to a tool that could potentially bring a lot of tactical variation to the battlefield. Shooting while cloaked will turn it into something that decreases the enjoyment and how fun Dust is on a whole. I'm already concerned with how much cloaks will slow down the game even if they have no ability to shoot while cloaked. The ability to shoot while cloaked just pushes the mechanic over the top. it's like that right now just flank a gay and shoot
Zekain K Expert Intervention Caldari State 1025	Posted - 2014.01.13 16:18:00 - [337] - Quote commando biffle wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Firing while cloaked allows a player to alpha strike and get the upper hand in an engagement and deny the player under attack the ability to respond to the threat effectively. It essentially creates an I-win tool for winning a firefight in many situations especially with the current time to kill. It basically adds a gimmicky mechanic to a tool that could potentially bring a lot of tactical variation to the battlefield. Shooting while cloaked will turn it into something that decreases the enjoyment and how fun Dust is on a whole. I'm already concerned with how much cloaks will slow down the game even if they have no ability to shoot while cloaked. The ability to shoot while cloaked just pushes the mechanic over the top. it's like that right now just flank a gay and shoot Not cool. *CALDARI not so MASTER RACE* Forum Warrior Level: 10
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12011	Posted - 2014.01.13 16:44:00 - [338] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Wx4_Dcd4Q This one is a non invincible one, Imagine yourself as ever one of those guys that got stabbed. You'd think with squad comms they'd knew there was an invisible guy running around. 0/10, would not read again. You've managed to almost exactly replicate your previous post, while providing exactly zero information on what this has to do with the dust implementation. Here's my response again, as you appear to have missed it. Updated for the new video and underlined. Brokerib wrote: Once again, this has nothing to do with the situation at hand. Someone hacking BF4 to be invisible has nothing to do with the explicit introduction of a stealth mechanic into a game, particularly where there are known hard and soft counters that compliment the introduction. You're just making things worse. I'll explain this again for the cheap seats: Just write down what the problem is and why cloaking, and specifically firing from cloak, is so inherently broken that you're trying to sabotage it's implementation since you're unable to stop it coming into game. No hypotheticals, no links off site, just the straight facts as you see them. If cloaking is that big a problem, it shouldn't be so hard to explain. And if you find that you have to resort to hyperbole and fear-mongering to get your point across, then maybe you need to reconsider your position. If the CPM is going to put out a call for arms and try to rally the community to their side then they should, at minimum: be able to explain the issue clearly and succinctly respond with fact or opinion without resorting to hyperbole be able to justify their position So far you're 0/3. Edit: updated to include an additional minimum. Problem is we had done so and people like yourself dismiss it. Excessively poor cloaking mechanics are exceptionally unfun for those who don't cloak. If you do not understand the frustration in dealing with cloaked players, try playing crysis 2 or 3, or even defiance pvp where it is a exceptional problem over there. (AKA you're labeled a noob if you do anything else) On the flip side Cloaking fittings and the way of implementation is ultimately a scout nerf Despite scouts getting bonuses to cloak and cloaking performance it does not make up for the fit neutering and ultimately suits like the logistics or assaults even will have more play room left over and will continue to outperform the scouts. The supposive counter using active scanner play overnerfed the scouts further since none of them will be able to achieve the stealth levels required and ultimately pre-nerfs the cloaks into oblivion as everyone will be training the scanner up more than ever. There are hundreds of ways to go about nerfing the cloak so its appealing to a lighter class and not the heavier ones but so far I have yet to see anything worthwhile from most of the opposition. Also recommended reading over the subject https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=search&postedby=CCP+Remnant&devbadge=1&gmbadge=1 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Minmatar Citizen 3173120 Xpert Intervention 86	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:21:00 - [339] - Quote If cloaks come in, I demand xray goggles! I refuse to be rapped by casper. Not cool!
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 944	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:22:00 - [340] - Quote Dammit Spero, I miss the old days when nothing but trolls and egotistical posts came outta Imps. Not this logical community minded crap. You need to get Zitro and Omni Zitro back in here to mix things up, you and steadyhand are ruining my nostalgia. Reggy's the only troll holdout I see left, and even he's been helpful over the last few months /signed (Does ReFlex still play? I've not seen him since Chromosome... ) Buff passive scans & fix TTK! My Closed Beta Alts - Overlord Ulath, Overlord Bosse, Overlord Zero

Orin the Freak The Solecism of Limitation 678	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:44:00 - [341] - Quote First off, I agree 100% with Kain and the majority of others here. NO fire while cloaked. I really like the idea of you having to hold the cloaking device in your hand (possible explanation: to constantly monitor the field and adjust it's frequency or some such thing) for the cloak to be active. To unequip it, you must first deactivate it (by pressing fire again), the module goes on cooldown, then you can switch. Thus, there will be roughly a 1 - 1.5 second delay (possibly less for higher-tier modules) before you can fire a weapon, or use other equipment. then, you can bring out the module, but can't activate the cloak again until it's done cooling down. As others have mentioned, down the road there should be a "black ops" scout variant, that can perhaps somehow speed up the decloak to fire process. but thats for another patch.
Long Evity 1008	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:45:00 - [342] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: First off, I agree 100% with Kain and the majority of others here. NO fire while cloaked. I really like the idea of you having to hold the cloaking device in your hand (possible explanation: to constantly monitor the field and adjust it's frequency or some such thing) for the cloak to be active. To unequip it, you must first deactivate it (by pressing fire again), the module goes on cooldown, then you can switch. Thus, there will be roughly a 1 - 1.5 second delay before you can fire a weapon, or use other equipment. then, you can bring out the module, but can't activate the cloak again until it's done cooling down. As others have mentioned, down the road there should be a "black ops" scout variant, that can perhaps somehow speed up the decloak to fire process. but thats for another patch. Holy shut. ORIN LIVES?!??! - SoTa PoP I am not who you think I am, only but just a dream.
Orin the Freak The Solecism of Limitation 678	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:46:00 - [343] - Quote Long Evity wrote: Orin the Freak wrote: First off, I agree 100% with Kain and the majority of others here. NO fire while cloaked. I really like the idea of you having to hold the cloaking device in your hand (possible explanation: to constantly monitor the field and adjust it's frequency or some such thing) for the cloak to be active. To unequip it, you must first deactivate it (by pressing fire again), the module goes on cooldown, then you can switch. Thus, there will be roughly a 1 - 1.5 second delay before you can fire a weapon, or use other equipment. then, you can bring out the module, but can't activate the cloak again until it's done cooling down. As others have mentioned, down the road there should be a "black ops" scout variant, that can perhaps somehow speed up the decloak to fire process. but thats for another patch. Holy shut. ORIN LIVES?!??! - SoTa PoP Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I play DUST. Thats far from living. :/ at any rate, o/ SoTa :)
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6414	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:50:00 - [344] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: We're aware of the concerns, and it's still something in development. OMG a Blue Tag! OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6414	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:52:00 - [345] - Quote I'm starting to have another round of second thoughts on the cloak. Now I'm not sure how it should be implemented in regards to how cloak should be held. Man, I'm becoming more of a flip flop than Sen. John Kerry. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 947	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:11:00 - [346] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I'm starting to have another round of second thoughts on the cloak. Now I'm not sure how it should be implemented in regards to how cloak should be held. Man, I'm becoming more of a flip flop than Sen. John Kerry. Danger! Danger! Flip-Flop level "John Kerry" now passed! Aporaching "Mitt Romney" levels! Danger! Danger! Buff passive scans & fix TTK! My Closed Beta Alts - Overlord Ulath, Overlord Bosse, Overlord Zero
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2605	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:59:00 - [347] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Dammit Spero, I miss the old days when nothing but trolls and egotistical posts came outta Imps. Not this logical community minded crap. You need to get Zitro and Omni Zitro back in here to mix things up, you and steadyhand are ruining my nostalgia. Reggy's the only troll holdout I see left, and even he's been helpful over the last few months /signed (Does ReFlex still play? I've not seen him since Chromosome... ) ReFlex has actually been trying out the assault dropship. Many IMPs have always had an eye to improving the game as a whole. Our trolls just happen to be some of the loudest and the hardest hitting. The Zitros are definitely missed. ....... Whether or not the cloak has to be held the whole time it's active I don't know. As long as you can't shoot at the same time you are cloaked is my main sticking point. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and CPM news
CHICAGOCUBS4EVER TeamPlayers 2641	Posted - 2014.01.13 20:02:00 - [348] - Quote having to hold it would ensure someone cant figure out a workaround to shooting while cloaked... and rest assured, if theres a way, it will happen. just the nature of the beast. make it something u have to equip, solve a pile of problems before they ever surface. OR... do what normally happens, allowing things to become an exploit without simple countermeasures implemented beforehand... and long as u keep Telcontar off the forums its a small win.. for everyone Common Sense and *Logic* are 2 things you have to forget when posting on these forums.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 237	Posted - 2014.01.13 21:27:00 - [349] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Firing while cloaked allows a player to alpha strike and get the upper hand in an engagement and deny the player under attack the ability to respond to the threat effectively. It essentially creates an I-win tool for winning a firefight in many situations especially with the current time to kill. It basically adds a gimmicky mechanic to a tool that could potentially bring a lot of tactical variation to the battlefield. Shooting while cloaked will turn it into something that decreases the enjoyment and how fun Dust is on a whole. I'm already concerned with how much cloaks will slow down the game even if they have no ability to shoot while cloaked. The ability to shoot while cloaked just pushes the mechanic over the top. Thank you for a reasonable response Kain. Are you about to explain how the ability to alpha strike from cloak differs from the ability to alpha strike using a sniper fit or REs? Also, can you explain what you mean by "cloaks will show down the game".
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 237	Posted - 2014.01.13 21:38:00 - [350] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber Problem is we had done so and people like yourself dismiss it. [* wrote: Excessively poor cloaking mechanics are exceptionally unfun for those who don't cloak. If you do not understand the frustration in dealing with cloaked players, try playing crysis 2 or 3, or even defiance pvp where it is a exceptional problem over there. (AKA you're labeled a noob if you do anything else) On the flip side Cloaking fittings and the way of implementation is ultimately a scout nerf Despite scouts getting bonuses to cloak and cloaking performance it does not make up for the fit neutering and ultimately suits like the logistics or assaults even will have more play room left over and will continue to outperform the scouts. The supposive counter using active scanner play overnerfed the scouts further since none of them will be able to achieve the stealth levels required and ultimately pre-nerfs the cloaks into oblivion as everyone will be training the scanner up more than ever. There are hundreds of ways to go about nerfing the cloak so its appealing to a lighter class and not the heavier ones but so far I have yet to see anything worthwhile from most of the opposition other than stonewalling which suggests they want it removed. Also recommended reading over the subject https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=search&postedby=CCP+Remnant&devbadge=1&gmbadge=1 Thanks for an actual response. Can you explain what about the dust mechanics make them "excessively poor"? Can you explain how any of the nerfs you have suggested will benefit scouts? To all appearances, you have been advocating breaking the cloak, not fixing the scout, so while I agree with some of your points it would be disingenuous to suggest that you started off this action with scouts in mind.

The Robot Devil molon labe. Public Disorder. 1546	Posted - 2014.01.13 21:47:00 - [351] - Quote I do think that giving the scout suits a cloak bonus is a nerf to the suit. Light frames are hard to use and easy to kill and a cloak bonus takes up a bonus that could be use on something else and they lose a slot that they desperately need. There are not enough light frames in the game and this just makes the scout even more useless. I don't like the idea that cloaks should have a finite cloak time. I don't like that cloaks will only be scouts or will be so restrictive that other suits are useless with one. I don't think super high fitting costs is that great of an idea because we shouldn't be using price or resource draw to control what items are being used. Yes, in EVE the Covert Ops cloak can only really use on covert ops ships but those ships have a role bonus that doesn't take another bonus out. I would much rather see the cloak come with stats that makes it useless without bonuses. I might want to run a cloak on my Amarr assaut but I can't because it is a scout item? That kind of flies in the face of the concept of fitting your suit how you want to fit your play style. Have the cool down be excessive so that weapons can't be fired within 6 seconds of decloak or something in that vein. If a team of heavies and logi want to stealth their way to an objective around the edge of the map then they are out of luck because they either won't be able to fit a cloak or if they do will not be combat effective. I do agree that scouts should use them a little better and I do agree that being able to fire while cloaked isn't good but denying entire classes the ability to fit a cloak is bad also. Dust will be missing out on emergent game play, the meta game and loads of tactics if a cloak is restricted to one frame size. I feel that buy gearing them towards scouts we are limiting the players. Have the cloak reduce speed, increase weapon switch time, have a timer that doesn't allow one to hack for a second or two after decloak or some drawback that punishes everyone the same way and then bonus the light frames to alleviate the punishment. Cloaks should be able to used on any suit if you are willing to give up the slot. I would know that a heavy could be cloaked around the corner but at the same time I would know that he has to wait 3 seconds(or some other amount of time) and is short a module on his suit. I have read precious few posts that make the cloak sound like a good idea, again the problem is that there is not enough light frames to make it interesting. I see a scout and know that they are still junk and even more so because they have no combat bonuses. We have relegated the scout suit and Light frames to nothing more than a hide and go seek game. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2251	Posted - 2014.01.13 22:54:00 - [352] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Neither you, nor anyone else calling for a nerf, has been able to provide solid reasoning for why firing from cloak is so bad that it should be considered broken, or breaks the game. Until you provide actual reasoning for it, its not a fact, it's your opinion. . I'll jump in here and try to break this down, then. The CPM is unanimous that cloaks as currently described are poor for balance and the overall health of the game. What constitutes fair balance, though? Should everything have the exact same stats and be able to kill everything equally? Not at all. In this instance... "Fair" in an FPS game constitutes a player having the ability of being aware how they died, and being able to learn and adapt so as not to die the same way again. Knowing who killed them and how is an important tool, as well is knowing how they could've avoided it. In the case of someone sneaking up behind someone, they are taking advantage of their own situational awareness while using the lack thereof in their victim. The victim can then take from that death "Maybe I should've been looking around more as I ran along the map" In this sense, melee and 'stealth' builds are completely fair, as a friendly teammate spotting or just better situational awareness can prevent all but the sneakiest of sneakers. In regards to the hot button point of firing while cloaked : There is nothing wrong with being able to fire on an unaware enemy. To say otherwise might as well be saying everyone should be on their enemies' maps all the time because "stealth is OP" (lol) However, (IMO) fairness dictates that anyone about to take an offensive position should also be vulnerable to counterattack at that same time. The cloak somewhat (though not completely) invalidates this point, as it provides a measure of safety both before (and after, if activated after firing rather than before) that prevents this opportunity except in the rarest of cases. It is the CPM's position that cloaks should be a tool used to escape, evade, and outmaneuver an enemy force, rather than a tool to be used actively in combat. We feel that this style of cloaking would maintain or even improve the pace of the game, and go a long way towards eliminating redline situations. Building on that last point, brings me to the second point of dispute among the CPM (Not unanimously agreed) The shimmer effect should only be present or "super visible" when one is sprinting. To do otherwise (Killzone 3 cloaking) only encourages campy, slow-paced playstyles as those are the only ways to use a cloak to maximum effect. This would result in cloaked players generally hovering around single objectives or spawn points, waiting for something to do instead of encouraging cloaked players to be highly mobile gameplay drivers who give OTHER players something to do. I will happily discuss any of these points with anyone who feels they have a reasonable argument against them. For added reference, I will paste the following from an internal CPM thread regarding my own views on the overal goals and "Should/ Should nots" of cloaks. Nova Knife wrote: Basic goal of cloaks should ultimately be to escape, evade, or maneuver into superior position. They should not be a direct tool to be used in active combat, but rather one of mobility. To achieve this, the cloaks should Be an equipment that must be held in one's hands to remain active Have a very audible and recognizable sound when first engaged and when disengaged Have a minimum 20 second cooldown that begins upon deactivation (Increased duration if forcibly decloaked by enemy fire or otherwise taking damage) No maximum active duration Affect speed. Non-Scout suits should move at roughly a 25% decrease to speed. Create very small, yet visible distortion around the cloaked player (not a perfect 'human' outline). Only amplifies to become super visible when sprinting Be directly countered by scanners depending on range and precision. Assuming equal values, at short (30m or less) range the scanner should beat the cloak. At long ranges the cloak should beat the scan. Disable Melee, or carry a steep (minimum 90%) penalty to melee damage while carried. When used on an air vehicle, all weapons and other modules should be disabled and prevented from being activated for the duration of the cloak and for an additional (minimum 15s) timer afterwards. (Higher tiers of cloaks can reduce delay) When used on an air vehicle, flying below a certain altitude should immediately decloak the vehicle. Provide points to a cloaked player if they evade a scan, conversely provide points to a scanner if they reveal a cloaked player to their team. (Scanned players should not be decloaked, but highlighted visually with a much greater distortion than usual which would be visible to players on both teams) Or at the very least, the cloaks SHOULD NOT Allow a player to equip, aim, or fire a weapon while activated Allow a player to regenerate armor or shields, or receive any remote effects while cloak is active and for a short duration after becoming visible Be limited to only a certain class of suit or have abnormally high fitting requirements. All suits should be able to cloak, effectiveness with a cloak should be determined by speed stats and scan profiles. Be accessible to any ground vehicles. None of the ground vehicles currently in the game would contribute positively to gameplay if allowed to cloak. Have visual distortion based on regular movement speed. (See Killzone 3 cloaks for reference on how to /not/ do cloaks) Cloaks which encourage standing still for maximum effect only lead to campy, unfun playstyles. Players should be encouraged to move around while cloaking to aid their team.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12018	Posted - 2014.01.13 23:06:00 - [353] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Iron Wolf Saber Problem is we had done so and people like yourself dismiss it. [* wrote: Excessively poor cloaking mechanics are exceptionally unfun for those who don't cloak. If you do not understand the frustration in dealing with cloaked players, try playing crysis 2 or 3, or even defiance pvp where it is a exceptional problem over there. (AKA you're labeled a noob if you do anything else) On the flip side Cloaking fittings and the way of implementation is ultimately a scout nerf Despite scouts getting bonuses to cloak and cloaking performance it does not make up for the fit neutering and ultimately suits like the logistics or assaults even will have more play room left over and will continue to outperform the scouts. The supposive counter using active scanner play overnerfed the scouts further since none of them will be able to achieve the stealth levels required and ultimately pre-nerfs the cloaks into oblivion as everyone will be training the scanner up more than ever. There are hundreds of ways to go about nerfing the cloak so its appealing to a lighter class and not the heavier ones but so far I have yet to see anything worthwhile from most of the opposition other than stonewalling which suggests they want it removed. Also recommended reading over the subject https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=search&postedby=CCP+Remnant&devbadge=1&gmbadge=1 Thanks for an actual response. Can you explain what about the dust mechanics make them "excessively poor"? Can you explain how any of the nerfs you have suggested will benefit scouts? To all appearances, you have been advocating breaking the cloak, not fixing the scout, so while I agree with some of your points it would be disingenuous to suggest that you started off this action with scouts in mind. Nova Knife pointed out what I truly wanted to say though. If done poorly the cloaks will offer little to no chances of learning on the victim's part and can even disadvantage a class entirely if they don't have the proper knowledge or tools (for example heavies still don't have scanners) Case in point, snipers, while they can attack while at their own advantage, the victim has plenty of room to learn to avoid dying another time, placing cover between him and the sniper, getting a counter snipe or even using an orbital bombardment if he cant reach the guy on foot. Most infantry can quickly ID where sniper shots are coming from and quickly surmise where the sniper is because despite the trail effect being weak, there is one. Snipers in turn can learn when its a good time to leave that spot because their gig is up. The sniper hunter then has to re adjust for that all and think where would be the next spot the sniper might have gone to. With cloaks, if it was done very poorly, there is little chance to learn or pre-act against the threat at times as to many of the cards are in the hands of the victim. It be like playing poker with one person having 2 cards and the cloaker having 5. There are plenty of options on the table from other games on how they 'tried' to balance it but I know some won't work here, for example crysis disrupted penalty gets rid of shields. That wouldn't work in dust 514. Others are more reliant on mechanics that probably don't exist yet, for example we don't have thermal scopes. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
goerf DUST University Ivy League 7	Posted - 2014.01.13 23:30:00 - [354] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Dear CCP and the Community of Dust 514, I would like it to be made publicly and clearly known that the CPM does not support the ability to fire a weapon while cloaked. If you support this (and even if you don't) I encourage you to post your thoughts so that CCP can hear our voices and change the course away from what would be a game-breaking mechanic. The devil is always in the details, but I think we can all agree that firing while cloaking is a line in the sand that CCP must not cross. /signed Kain Spero of CPM 0 Agreed To use a weapon you must de-cloak it seems logical You get unseen movement - how big an advantage does a scout need?
The Robot Devil molon labe. Public Disorder. 1547	Posted - 2014.01.14 00:55:00 - [355] - Quote To achieve this, the cloaks should Be an equipment that must be held in one's hands to remain active Have a very audible and recognizable sound when first engaged and when disengaged Have a minimum 20 second cooldown that begins upon deactivation (Increased duration if forcibly decloaked by enemy fire or otherwise taking damage) No maximum active duration Affect speed. Non-Scout suits should move at roughly a 25% decrease to speed. Create very small, yet visible distortion around the cloaked player (not a perfect 'human' outline). Only amplifies to become super visible when sprinting Be directly countered by scanners depending on range and precision. Assuming equal values, at short (30m or less) range the scanner should beat the cloak. At long ranges the cloak should beat the scan. Disable Melee, or carry a steep (minimum 90%) penalty to melee damage while carried. When used on an air vehicle, all weapons and other modules should be disabled and prevented from being activated for the duration of the cloak and for an additional (minimum 15s) timer afterwards. (Higher tiers of cloaks can reduce delay) When used on an air vehicle, flying below a certain altitude should immediately decloak the vehicle. Provide points to a cloaked player if they evade a scan, conversely provide points to a scanner if they reveal a cloaked player to their team. (Scanned players should not be decloaked, but highlighted visually with a much greater distortion than usual which would be visible to players on both teams) Or at the very least, the cloaks SHOULD NOT Allow a player to equip, aim, or fire a weapon while activated Allow a player to regenerate armor or shields, or receive any remote effects while cloak is active and for a short duration after becoming visible Be limited to only a certain class of suit or have abnormally high fitting requirements. All suits should be able to cloak, effectiveness with a cloak should be determined by speed stats and scan profiles. Be accessible to any ground vehicles. None of the ground vehicles currently in the game would contribute positively to gameplay if allowed to cloak. Have visual distortion based on regular movement speed. (See Killzone 3 cloaks for reference on how to /not/ do cloaks) Cloaks which encourage standing still for maximum effect only lead to campy, unfun playstyles. Players should be encouraged to move around while cloaking to aid their team. Great list and I agree with almost all of them. The two I don't agree with is full invisibility while not moving and a minimum height for dropships. Here are the reasons why. If a merc is at an objective camping it and not moving then they should be invisible and I think the counter to this is partially the wait to fire time and the other main counter would be any weapon with splash damage. A mass driver, flux grenade or even just half a clip of random fire would probably decloak them or force them to move. Also, if they show up when pinged with an active scanner then there is no need to not allow full invisibility. Good teamwork and tactics should counter most cloaks in the long run. I don't like the minimum dropship height that much because they are loud and if you can't hear one hovering over the objective then you probably shouldn't be there, again, a well place round or even one random will decloak the ship. If I can't see the ship above me making all that noise all I have to do is shoot up in the air in the direction of the sound. Cloaks should be a powerful weapon but they shouldn't be unbearable and I think that there is enough direct counters to these two things. Great post, good discussion and I think it is productive as well. Keep up the hard work CPM. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
MassiveNine 0uter.Heaven 763	Posted - 2014.01.14 00:59:00 - [356] - Quote So what about hacking while cloaked? I think it should be allowed. I mean if someone is at a letter and it starts getting hacked any decent player would know to huck a nade or start firing at the hack screen. Official DUST514 LAV Mechanic
DoomLead Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 255	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:00:00 - [357] - Quote I support this idea if it is a scout only mod and i say this as a true blue heavy
Onesimus Tarsus 793	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:01:00 - [358] - Quote I think heavy and medium suits shouldn't be able to shoot until their HP is as low as a scout's. I got my hand around the pistol grip, and the safety's off.
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 239	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:02:00 - [359] - Quote Thanks you Nova and IWS for the posts, they are both informative and explain the CPMs position. That said, I don't 100% agree with you, but that's to be expected as I have a vested interest in protecting the scout. This explains how I see the cloak working in practice. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1702679#post1702679 I see the cloak, as currently explained, as a mainly defensive item (stealth is the scouts armor and shields), that retains a limited ability to be offensive. I'd be happy to see loss of cloak on any sort of attack or usage of equipment, and the cloak recharge time extended (in the same way the shield recharge is extended when fully depleted) when broken in this way instead of through natural depletion. Many of the additional conditions that are being recommended for cloaks are excessive, and massively disadvantage the scout. Just off the top my head: The inability to cloak while shields or armor are depleted or repairing mean we can only use the cloak in pro-active situations, and not for active defence. Having to continually hold the item and having no ability to equip a weapon or piece of equipment mean that if we are caught by a hard or soft counter, we are unable to respond. Cool downs on the ability to shoot out of cloak similarly disadvantage us, as the TTK on scouts is shorter than any other suit. So if we're discovered and come under fire, any delay will almost certainly result in out death. Excessive sounds or tells mean that using the cloak will actually make the scout less stealthy than they are currently, and removes their purpose. I'm still wary of the CPMs motives and methods. IWS has already stated that he's doing everything he can to burn the cloak as he doesn't want it introduced into the game (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1712542#post1712542). This is a position that will directly harm scouts, if the scout bunus changes go ahead as documented. I do think that there is an implementation that will leave the cloak as a useful and wanted piece of equipment, without damaging the overall meta. And I think that implementation is not that far from what CCP has already detailed. But ultra-nerfing the cloak before its introduced is excessive, and will only further marginalise the weakest suit in game.
DeathwindRising ROGUE SPADES 197	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:31:00 - [360] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Dear CCP and the Community of Dust 514, I would like it to be made publicly and clearly known that the CPM does not support the ability to fire a weapon while cloaked. If you support this (and even if you don't) I encourage you to post your thoughts so that CCP can hear our voices and change the course away from what would be a game-breaking mechanic. The devil is always in the details, but I think we can all agree that firing while cloaking is a line in the sand that CCP must not cross. /signed Kain Spero of CPM 0 we need to see how it works first. emptying wholes clips while cloak would be a bit much, but a few rounds would be alright with me. the passive scanning mechanics need reworking to go along with all this. and flux grenades need reworking too. their blast radius needs to be increased and anyone hit with a flux would instantly lose their cloak. basically, you scan the scout and a blip is in front of you but you dont see him, so you throw a flux and poof! there he is. the other thing is that you should need to half at least one shield hp to use the cloak. no shields, then no cloak.



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