Sorry, not trying to sound like a ****, but well you mentioned that you're new to logistics. So, do you realize that the Amarr Logistics is the only one that gets a sidearm? Where every other Logi suit only has one gun, you have two. That it why the others are more powerful in terms of high slots, low slots and equipment.

amarr logi is fine. the suit has higher base hp and also receives a sidearm slot at proto levels.

the caldari and minmatar are actually out of place with huge tanking (if that is what you want) capabilities due to their slots but the purpose is actually to have a balanced fit to be able to keep up with assaults.

That's not true.
We should not be able to fight 1v1 against an assault.
It's stupid to be able to be even better. They are the ******* killing machines not us.

Llan Heindell.

oh really? how do you want to support the assaults when you slowboat behind them? you need the slots for biotic modules to be able to keep up with the flow of the battle (which is controlled be the assaults, assaults are faster and the majority of mercs run assaults) and when you keep up with the assaults then you also need slots for tanking because someone will sooner or later start to shoot you.

full tank logis are useless, they arrive into the battle when it is already over and then get killed like everyone else.

you think gallente is best? try with caldari...LOL

You silly creature. I don't need to keep up with assaults. I have 21m range. I can be really far from them in a very good and safe location.

My point is, they need to be better then us.

Llan Heindell.

Weirdness of amarr logi strikes even if you compare it with amarr assault. And Gal logi as bonus compare.
..............Amarr Logi...................Amarr Assault..................Gallente Logi
PG...............66..................................70.......................................78
CPU...........390.................................350......................................390
High.............3.....................................3..........................................3
Low..............3....................................3..........................................5
Eq.................3....................................1..........................................4
Shield.........120...............................180.........................................90
Armor..........180..............................180.......................................180
Run..............4.5................................4.8........................................4.7
Sprint...........6.4................................6.7........................................6.6


Amarr logi for some reason have less PG then amarr assault (and much less then any other logi), but with same High/Low and +2 equipment slots.
And logi need huge PG supply to fit all those extra equipment. Which is hard with lacking PG.

So comparing to Gallente logi, again HUGE lack of PG.
Gallente have -30EHP with +2Low and +12PG (+4 from skills 30%*12) and -25% PG/CPU on all equipment, which is HUGE for logi.
And with that all extra PG/CPU that Gallente have from suit itself or skill for equipment he can just actually fit one free* rep module into extra low slot to compensate for amarr's repair bonus from skill.

For me side arm just not worth the PG/Low drawbacks.

amarr logi have less PG because he has less slots than other logis.

why logis have less PG than assault? I can only assume this is because equipment is more CPU demanding and to make the logi do compromises.

Again i don't think that sidearm is worth -12PG and -2Fiting slots and -1Equipment

oh really? how do you want to support the assaults when you slowboat behind them? you need the slots for biotic modules to be able to keep up with the flow of the battle (which is controlled be the assaults, assaults are faster and the majority of mercs run assaults) and when you keep up with the assaults then you also need slots for tanking because someone will sooner or later start to shoot you.

full tank logis are useless, they arrive into the battle when it is already over and then get killed like everyone else.

I agree. The Amarr logi or Captain Mediocre as I call him, cannot compete against the other logis. To do so he would have to proto two weapons on top of all the logi skills he must have and decide between his equipment slots on what to sacrifice to stay in the game. Don't assault suits get two equipment slots at proto level? Meaning that an ASSAULT caldari would be a better logi than and AMARR logi - or at least on par with him as the caldari has more slots. That shouldn't happen.

If his bonus applied to ALL armor restoring equipment the skill may be worth the sacrifice. As in the bonus applying to his repair tool, nanite injectors, and armor reppers. One would sacrifice the medium stats for an advanced repping skill. That I could go for, but as is he is sad.

I agree. The Amarr logi or Captain Mediocre as I call him, cannot compete against the other logis. To do so he would have to proto two weapons on top of all the logi skills he must have and decide between his equipment slots on what to sacrifice to stay in the game. Don't assault suits get two equipment slots at proto level? Meaning that an ASSAULT caldari would be a better logi than and AMARR logi - or at least on par with him as the caldari has more slots. That shouldn't happen.

If his bonus applied to ALL armor restoring equipment the skill may be worth the sacrifice. As in the bonus applying to his repair tool, nanite injectors, and armor reppers. One would sacrifice the medium stats for an advanced repping skill. That I could go for, but as is he is sad.

I understand that the sidearm is good, but really, 3 low slots against 5 from the Gallente? It's a little too much, And the gallente actually gets more Infantry slots. lol

I'm having a hard time being a medic with my amarr suit because I can't use naniteinjector/nanohives/repair tools.
Having one less infantry slot is enough of a penalty for the sidearm. That's a fact.

Llan Heindell.

Hi there.

I decided to go the logistics path in Dust, and as I like armor repair modules I chose Amarr because of the nice bonuses to it.
After 2 days now of playing I begun to notice something - the Amarr Logisuit is quite subpar when looking another, flat out better dropsuit -> the Gallente Logisuit.
Let me explain:

The T3 Amarr logisuit has 3x low slots, this results in one being able to carry 3x armor repairer modules at most.
The T3 Gallente logisuit has the amazing number of 5x low suits, making one being able to use 5x armor repairer modules.
Logistics Suit Bonus +1 HP to dropsuit armor repair rate per level.
Amarr Logi Bonus +5% to efficacy of armor repairer modules per level.
Amarr Repair Systems +5% to armor repair modules efficacy per level.
Complex Armor Repairer 5,0 HP/s.

These values only count if one has lvl 5 in the following skills skills:
Armor Repair Systems
Amarr Logistics Dropsuit / Gallente Logistics Dropsuit

Amarr Suit:

25%+25% = 50%
50% + 100% = 150%
150% / 100 = growth factor 1,50

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,5 = 7,5 HP/s
7,5 HP/s x 3 low slots = 22,5 HP/s
22,5 HP/s + 5 HP/s = 27,5 HP/s

Gallente Suit:

25% + 100% = 125%
125% / 100 = growth factor 1,25

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,25 = 6,25 HP/s
6,25 HP/s x 4 lowslots = 25 HP/s
25HP/s + 5 HP/s = 30 HP/s

6,25 HP/s x 5 lowslots = 31,25 HP/s
31,25 HP/s + 5HP/s = 36,25 HP/s


As you can see, the gallente dropsuit is superior in armor repairing because of its extra low slots.

I think it would be nice if the T3 Amarr Logisuit had one more low slot to make its suitbonus more useful for those (like me) who stack up on armor repair modules.



Need to end this thread now as I need to leave, but I will continue later about another amarr dropsuit topic that I have in mind.


- Haron Vathek

(sorry for any grammar / speling mistakes, english is not my native language)


Edit1: Fixed some wrong numbers

Late on writing this, but I guess its better late than never.

My second topic about the Amarr Logistics Suit is primarily focused around the Advanced(T2) one, more spesificly named the Logistics A/1-Series.
The logistic class rely on its vast amount of equipment slots, in fact its what defines us as a logistic (other than the banana suits). Therefore it has come to my attention that the Logistics A/1-Series only have 2 equipment slots like its Standard (T1) version, the Logistics A-I, this is something that severly weakens the suits supportive capabilites. I know that the suit has 3 High and 3 Low slots which are not bad for a Advanced(T2) suit, but I still feel as a logistics player its lacking on the supportive side rather than the defensive / offensive one.
Right now I am only able to carry one remote armor repairer and one nanite injector, even in the Advanced(T2) suit and this gimps my capabilities bigtime.

Therefore I suggest having 1 High slot replaced with 1 equipment slot on the Advanced(T2) Amarr logistics suit.

This would make it easier for Amarr logistics to support their team better at earlier levels and even though it might look similar to the Advanced(T2) Gallente logistics suit since its layout is 2 High, 3 Low and 3 equipment slots. There would still be the CPU and PG difference, making the Gallente one more viable for more resource heavy modules.


- Haron Vathek

(sorry or any grammar / spelling mistakes, english is not my native language)

Weirdness of amarr logi strikes even if you compare it with amarr assault. And Gal logi as bonus compare.
..............Amarr Logi...................Amarr Assault..................Gallente Logi
PG...............66..................................70.......................................78
CPU...........390.................................350......................................390
High.............3.....................................3..........................................3
Low..............3....................................3..........................................5
Eq.................3....................................1..........................................4
Shield.........120...............................180.........................................90
Armor..........180..............................180.......................................180
Run..............4.5................................4.8........................................4.7
Sprint...........6.4................................6.7........................................6.6


Amarr logi for some reason have less PG then amarr assault (and much less then any other logi), but with same High/Low and +2 equipment slots.
And logi need huge PG supply to fit all those extra equipment. Which is hard with lacking PG.

So comparing to Gallente logi, again HUGE lack of PG.
Gallente have -30EHP with +2Low and +12PG (+4 from skills 30%*12) and -25% PG/CPU on all equipment, which is HUGE for logi.
And with that all extra PG/CPU that Gallente have from suit itself or skill for equipment he can just actually fit one free* rep module into extra low slot to compensate for amarr's repair bonus from skill.

For me side arm just not worth the PG/Low drawbacks.

Sorry, not trying to sound like a ****, but well you mentioned that you're new to logistics. So, do you realize that the Amarr Logistics is the only one that gets a sidearm? Where every other Logi suit only has one gun, you have two. That it why the others are more powerful in terms of high slots, low slots and equipment.

The amarr logi is not suited to front line combat at all. I've rarely ever lived long enough after taking fire for my repair modules to do anything to help. Generally I'm dead before I can blink. This is with around 430 or so total hp. May as well run a skinweave logi suit, which survives just as long and doesn't cost SP or isk.

It seemed like a great suit for a couple days, then the average dps put out by players jumped through the roof. Now the suit is about as resilient as a wet piece of toilet paper.

I agree. The Amarr logi or Captain Mediocre as I call him, cannot compete against the other logis. To do so he would have to proto two weapons on top of all the logi skills he must have and decide between his equipment slots on what to sacrifice to stay in the game. Don't assault suits get two equipment slots at proto level? Meaning that an ASSAULT caldari would be a better logi than and AMARR logi - or at least on par with him as the caldari has more slots. That shouldn't happen.

If his bonus applied to ALL armor restoring equipment the skill may be worth the sacrifice. As in the bonus applying to his repair tool, nanite injectors, and armor reppers. One would sacrifice the medium stats for an advanced repping skill. That I could go for, but as is he is sad.

Agreed.

I have been a longtime Logi since I strated Dust. It is very frustrating to say the least. With that yellow color all the Douvale Tac rifes pick you off first before you can even see them. I started an alt and have put my main Logi on hold. I went Amarr because of my toons faction and regret it.

For a true Logistics the side arm is not needed. CCP had intended for the Amarr to work as the "assault" Logi but we see how that worked out.

You guys are thinking of it as a logi is the problem, it's just an assault that gave up some HP and speed so it could carry more equipment.

I'd given this some more thought, and think the Amarr Logi is more than a little off.

Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar all have 12-slot totals at Proto:
C=5H 4L 3E=12
G=3H 5L 4E=12
M=4H 4L 4E=12

The Amarr has 9 (3/3/3) and a sidearm. It's also worth mentioning that the sidearm doesn't become a factor till proto level, so it's not really a balancing factor on the lower tiers. Either way, they're effectively claim that ONE sidearm slot equals THREE slots, right?

However, if you check out something like the Caldari Assault for comparison (4H 3L) there's only a two-slot difference in modules capacity between the assault and the Logistics - the Logi has +2 module fitting that sets it apart from the assault version. The Amarr assault and logi are inexplicably the same - 3H 3L.

The PG difference seems like a typo honestly. Every other logistics/assault comparison will show the logistics getting higher PG (for fitting more crap), and the Amarr logistics mysteriously has less PG than the assault and basic frames.

I think the Amarr Logi does need to be better than the Amarr Assault in terms of slots, even with a sidearm. I'd give the Logistics ONE more low slot to make it 3H 4L. Then it's trading two slots for the sidearm.

The assault class needs other tweaks as well, but I think that would be fair to the Amarr Logi.

*Clears Throat*
Another high powered slot please - the fact that Amarr logis get an amour repair boost lessens the need for more low powered based modules... =D

The ability to use a sidearm along side a light weapon is a lot better than you seem to be giving it credit for.

Mass driver / SMG

Swarm launcher /SMG

AR / Flaylock

Scram rifle / Flaylock


All these options give you two clear methods of engaging hostile targets, either by allowing you to combat vehicles or by giving you a CQC weapon as well as an AOE support weapon.

I play logi and I went for Minmatar, since I want equipment slots, versatility and speed which the suit provides. I spent a long time weighing it against the amarr for the sidearm so I could use a mass driver in a support role and back it up with an SMG, its a very neat and unique option for a logi.

Amarr slot layout: (3/3/3)
Minmatar slot layout: (4/4/4)

If you gained another equip or module slot.. amarr would be a a clearly superior choice, I'd have gone for it for sure.

The ability to use a sidearm along side a light weapon is a lot better than you seem to be giving it credit for.

Mass driver / SMG

Swarm launcher /SMG

AR / Flaylock

Scram rifle / Flaylock


All these options give you two clear methods of engaging hostile targets, either by allowing you to combat vehicles or by giving you a CQC weapon as well as an AOE support weapon.

I play logi and I went for Minmatar, since I want equipment slots, versatility and speed which the suit provides. I spent a long time weighing it against the amarr for the sidearm so I could use a mass driver in a support role and back it up with an SMG, its a very neat and unique option for a logi.

Amarr slot layout: (3/3/3)
Minmatar slot layout: (4/4/4)

If you gained another equip or module slot.. amarr would be a a clearly superior choice, I'd have gone for it for sure.

I don't have much to add to this discussion but just wanted to point out - no assault (even proto) has more than 1 equipment slot. In fact only logi suits have more than 1 equipment slot in the entire game.

Not a logistics so take this with a grain of salt, but if armor rep mod stacking took a hard penalty dive after 2 or 3, would that not balance things out between the logistics by creating diminishing returns for the Gallante Logistics?

Edit:

The way I see it, the Amarr logistics was meant to be the logi assault hybrid, similar to how the Minmatar scout is the scout assault hybrid. A sidearm gives laser rifle and submachine gun to cover distance/damage types for this suit. That being said the above fix should sway the balance back to Amarr being better armor reppers.

THANK ALL OF YOU AMARR PROTO LOGI USERS WHO SPOKE UP...

The Amerr proto has been made too weak...
It's Really Just the Logi suit for me(aside from the fact it doesn't look like a Minmatar), however, the fact that it has a side arm slot - Just A Side Arm Slot - should NOT mean that it should loose a High Powered slot AND a Low Powered slot, AND an Equipment slot(it actually only lost 2 slots but......)...
GUYS - THREE SLOTS lost for supposedly gaining ONE? THAT'S A BIT HARSH(don't you think?)... =\
The Proto Amarr should have say, simply exchanged a low powered slot(which it can fairly spare due to it's armor repair boost), for the sidearm slot & keep 4 high powered & 4 equipment slots(or at least kept 4 high powered slots - at least)...
Having a side arm slot does not give any sort of advantage - it simply makes the already versatile Logi even more versatile - so I don't see why, Especially since it seems that y'all did simple rotations of slots with the other proto logis & because even though the Amarr Logi has a sidearm slot, it's CPU & PG is still limited & one can't just go into overkill with one's weapons - right?

So I'm Officially starting some sort of petition thing for the Amarr Logi Proto to at least get an additional High Powered slot...

GIVE THE AMARR PROTO LOGIS AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF SLOTS(or-at-least-another-high-powered-slot) - WHO'S WITH ME!!! O.O (=])

(For Your - the developers - consideration...)

I like your enthusiasm, but make it a low slot and you have a deal. Add a piece of equipment for a bonus. Amarr are armor driven, a High slot would mean more shields and would make it more Caldari... no, switch it to a low slot.

lvl 1 2/2/2
Adv 3/3/3
Proto 3/4/3

or 2/2/2
3/4/2
3/4/3

That is the way i see it. 1 side arm bonus is not equal to -1/-1/-2 in comparison to the other logis and the base logi from chromosome. He needs to be more. A beefier logi that loses an equipment slot and a high in the end for bonuses to armor.
Sure, it might seem op for some people, but it just seems right.

only AV & the laser profits from the sidearm because it has no other way of engaging up close. all other weapons listed can easily fight on their own at close range and the reloading time is not even long. the sidearms wont even come to use most of the time because the average engagement range is beyond 20m and all the sidearms have ~15 optimal range.

the sidearm is definately not worth 2 slots, especially when dont get it before proto. the AR is still superb at all ranges, why would someone take any other weapon?

my opinion stands, give the amarr logi the sidearm from the beginning and keep the slot layout as it is and incease the PG/CPU. amarr is the laser faction and the laser is useless up close thus you need a sidearm thus let them carry one.

Hi there.

I decided to go the logistics path in Dust, and as I like armor repair modules I chose Amarr because of the nice bonuses to it.
After 2 days now of playing I begun to notice something - the Amarr Logisuit is quite subpar when looking another, flat out better dropsuit -> the Gallente Logisuit.
Let me explain:

The T3 Amarr logisuit has 3x low slots, this results in one being able to carry 3x armor repairer modules at most.
The T3 Gallente logisuit has the amazing number of 5x low suits, making one being able to use 5x armor repairer modules.
Logistics Suit Bonus +1 HP to dropsuit armor repair rate per level.
Amarr Logi Bonus +5% to efficacy of armor repairer modules per level.
Amarr Repair Systems +5% to armor repair modules efficacy per level.
Complex Armor Repairer 5,0 HP/s.

These values only count if one has lvl 5 in the following skills skills:
Armor Repair Systems
Amarr Logistics Dropsuit / Gallente Logistics Dropsuit

Amarr Suit:

25%+25% = 50%
50% + 100% = 150%
150% / 100 = growth factor 1,50

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,5 = 7,5 HP/s
7,5 HP/s x 3 low slots = 22,5 HP/s
22,5 HP/s + 5 HP/s = 27,5 HP/s

Gallente Suit:

25% + 100% = 125%
125% / 100 = growth factor 1,25

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,25 = 6,25 HP/s
6,25 HP/s x 4 lowslots = 25 HP/s
25HP/s + 5 HP/s = 30 HP/s

6,25 HP/s x 5 lowslots = 31,25 HP/s
31,25 HP/s + 5HP/s = 36,25 HP/s


As you can see, the gallente dropsuit is superior in armor repairing because of its extra low slots.

I think it would be nice if the T3 Amarr Logisuit had one more low slot to make its suitbonus more useful for those (like me) who stack up on armor repair modules.



Need to end this thread now as I need to leave, but I will continue later about another amarr dropsuit topic that I have in mind.


- Haron Vathek

(sorry for any grammar / speling mistakes, english is not my native language)


Edit1: Fixed some wrong numbers

Still stupidly gimped. So a the Amarr has higher armor than the Gallente? Good. The Gallente has 5, count them 5 that he could dump armor into - i've seen it in stories. All the logis have a wider versatility than the Amarr. That is part of the reason for increasing his slot count or his equipment count.

As it stands he is soooo middle of the road.. Coolest looking armor, most average presence on the battlefield. Mediocre, characterless, common, conventional, dull, humdrum, inferior, intermediate, ordinary, passable, pedestrian, second-rate, undistinguished, unexceptional, uninspired, vanilla - when he is in proto form. Its' like he's missing the next level, a proto +1 or something.

and yes a thesaurus was involved.

Did this thread just die because we are out of suggestions or arguments or because the new weapons came out and we can finally kill those Caldari shield tankers and new meat to pubstomp?

My feelings haven't changed. I still think they need AT LEAST another low slot at at proto -and PG/CPU higher than the Assault, and even then I'm not sure I'd call it balanced.

Honestly, I'd figured the hp bonus (compared to the other logis) would be a bit higher too considering the speed and slot restriction. Part of the assault-difference from logis is they're faster, but the Amarr logi doesn't really see this, right? The tradeoff for being "assault" instead of logi gets you higher hp, higher speed, better regen, better stamina - normally, right?

I'm not sure if the Amarr logi hp and sidearm quite justifies them being the slowest, fewest slots, etc.

The low slot and PG fix is just an obvious correction to me (The logi should NOT have the same slots than the assault, even if it's just one more). However, depending on just how "assault-oriented" the Amarr logi is meant to be, it's possible other stats need to be looked at too. But, Jebus... give them another low slot and fix that PG.

I completely agree. The slight stat increase that justifies the many lost slots, +the odd suit bonus, the lost pg/cpu, etc. I agree that an increase in pgu/cpu and a low slot makes it fit a little better with the other logis, but only at proto level and therein lies one issue. The extra low slot needs to be made available earlier or the added equipment slot.

The way I see it there are several progression choices - assuming the pg/cpu increases are already in play:

A _______________B____________________C
2/2/2--------------or----------2/2/2-----------------or-------2/2/2 side arm
3/3/3---------------------------3/3/3 side arm--------------3/3/2 side arm
3/4/3 side arm-------------3/4/3 side arm--------------3/4/3 side arm

I think I like C the best. Why? There is a little more balance.
A - gives you everything at proto level - and one should get a bonus each level with the side arm being the reason for this class.

B - gives both the logi bonus of more equipment and the assault bonus of the sidearm at the same time with just a slot bonus for the proto level. Seems like it is too much all at one time.

C - gives the player the initial class defining bonus of the side arm - the Assault bonus right of the bat. It establishes his role as the attack logi with the slight stat boost.
The Advanced level gives just a standard slot increase keeping with the bonuses of other suits but not quite the Logi suits which normally gets an equipment bonus. But being the assault suit it seems appropriate - not that many slot increases - so really nothing special here and keeps the class a bit frustrating as a logi without a 3rd equipment slot but in line with the idea of a Logissault.
Proto Level - gives the final bonuses. A slot increase - not large like other classes as it also has a logi increase in stats and an equipment bonus. The class definition has already been there (the side arm and slowed progression in slot increases) - and he is still middle of the road. A cross class for real.
_____

The Amarr is the in-between for an Assault/Logi. That being the case it should have a side arm starting out and keep the standard beginning slots and stats. Each level increase increases the pg/cpu as it does with other suits but redefining the role of the Amarr Logi in the beginning allows a progression that is understandable as the cross class suit.

While there may be some hidden power and reason behind the defeated Amarr Logi, we have yet to see it. New planned weapons or other things that I have seen do not seem to justify the future of this suit. As of now there is little draw to this suit. If the bonuses were adjusted - +5% bonus to repair on everything (vehicles you're in, tools one uses, modules used, etc.) then the gimpyness may be justified. As of now it is a broken and sad suit. A little more durable but still sad. We have yet to see the redeeming quality of this class and the question is... will we ever?

The quick fix is a slot increase, quicker sidearm gain or quicker equipment gain, with PG/CPU increases. Something must be done.

I would rather like to see the layout look like this:
hi/low/equipment
standard 2/2/2 + side arm
advanced 2/3/2 + side arm
proto 3/3/3 + side arm
+ a PG/CPU boost

I think 3/3/3/sidearm is good enough at proto, it allows you to choose from a vast amount of different fits which makes it a real good support suit. it is strange that you dont get the major benefit of the amarr logi till proto levels but you already pay for it at advanced level. just give the suit the side arm from the beginning and increase its PG/CPU to be able to fit it.

This thread needs to addressed. Such a broken logi suit. Seriously, no 3rd equipment slot till proto. Come on CCP. What kind of logi is this? Not pleased.

I would rather like to see the layout look like this:
hi/low/equipment
standard 2/2/2 + side arm
advanced 2/3/2 + side arm
proto 3/3/3 + side arm
+ a PG/CPU boost

I think 3/3/3/sidearm is good enough at proto, it allows you to choose from a vast amount of different fits which makes it a real good support suit. it is strange that you dont get the major benefit of the amarr logi till proto levels but you already pay for it at advanced level. just give the suit the side arm from the beginning and increase its PG/CPU to be able to fit it.

It needs its damn 3rd equipment slot at Adv. and some more pg lol. Proto needs more sustenance. Maybe better base stats. Btw, its a lot of points to get to proto logi, shouldn't have to have a PROTO to be an effective LOGI suit.

That 3/3/3 +sidearm setup is NOT good enough - nor is the extra low powered slot...
Where is your(all of you low powered junkies)sense of balance?
The Amarr Proto Logi has been unfairly 'nerfed' & should only have been adjusted to facilitate the sidearm, that is, it should be 4/4/3 +sidearm where it would retain all standard 14slots which a Proto Logi should have & have enough slots for increased SHIELDING which it lacks in...
THINK people... O.O
(I just checked)For some reason they've made all Amarr Protos to have one less slot than the other Protos(Basic, Assault & Logi)... If they must keep up with this, 'tradition', at least give the Amarr Proto Logi a 4th HIGH POWERED slot which is NEEDS...
Just because the Amarr Logi is Amarr, doesn't mean it has to be an amour based tank people - it's already slow & Does Not Need Another Low Powered slot due to it's bonuses - JEEZ...

Love it. Ask for the most so that when they back it off it comes out to workable. I agree that if I could push for the best it would be a 4/5/3 with a side arm. Very much like the Gallente without the extra equipment slots. It would be OP as hell, but I would love it.

Yeah...
Based on what I see going on with the Proto Logis - they all get 14 slots - & compared to other suits, Amarr suits always get one slot less than the rest...
With this in mind, I won't argue the 14 slots much - I'll just ask - but, I'll argue that the Amarr Proto Logi(which I've used since the respec)deserves at least one more slot, which is a high powered, because my current shield is like half of my armor & that puts me at a disadvantage against certain weapons...

If he had 4 Low slots at Proto, the Repair module bonus wouldn't be nearly as difficult to work with. I think it's already been pointed out that a Gallente Proto can actually get higher Repair than the Amarr Logi just on number of slots.

(in the interest of full disclosure, I run Caldari Logistics - so Amarr bonuses wouldn't even help me, I just feel bad for it being the gimpiest of the suits)

You are completely right. Gallente could do it better, less stamina and base HP, but it could do the repair much better. Just goes to show you what a great suit the Gallente is - many options there. Amarr... not so many and needs work.

...

using mini logi at mo , but intend on unlocking all logi suits ,so would like them to have different roles within the logistics umbrella. As amarr is supposed to be the more combat focused , why not give std and advanced versions a side arm and the proto 2 light weapon slots.cpu/pg can be altered to finely balance, they loose logistical utility while gaining combat focused utility , allowing them to perform maybe something more like a combat engineer rather than medic/supply/fire support combo logistics they are at present .maybe this would encroach on the assault or heavy roles to much,but it would make logistics an interesting career if all 4 factions had there own specialty niche within the logistics bracket.

I've been running the proto suit a lot more lately and there have been times where it was fun to use. I'd move forward, encounter some resistance and retreat into cover as my armor started to take damage. Then the guy I was fighting charges in to try and finish me off, not realizing that my armor is repairing and that I have my smg out. I've even gotten a few kills that way. A few problems though

1) If you aren't literally right next to cover, the armor reps don't save you. I'm running enhanced plate and two complex reppers.
2) If the guy you bait in by falling back is using a proto suit, you're a goner. That stunt only works against standard or militia suits. Against advanced suit enemies it's a bit of a coin toss.
3) Doing this in any meaningful way seems to require a ton more SP than other races, since you absolutely rely on dual tanking. There's no way in hell you can rely on armor alone. If you try that you get swatted down like a starter suit. I have 10.5 million SP and I the only proto level gear I can use is armor repair modules and my suit. Everything else is at advanced (enhanced extenders, plates etc).

This is not a complaint but feedback regarding the Proto Logi Suit for the Amarr.

There needs to be a significant disadvantage given to the Amarr Logi suit due to its advanatge of the sidearm however I believe that the balancing has gone a little to far meaning that there is a PG or slot issue.


Ok first of all I really dont understand why the logi has a pg of 67 with fewer slots than other logi's they are allready at a disadvantage due to not having much room for cpu or pg boosters. In order to have a reasonable offence / support hybrid logi you are required to get a PG booster in one of the 3 low slots this has the following implications:

1. You can't take full advantage of the armours racial speclaisation bonus as basicly you will have to run with one armor and 1 complex repper due to the complex PG being in low slot.

2. This means that with low high slots and only two low slots the final armor and shield stats for total hit points are probably far lower than the other three logi's with only a slight hit point rep advantage.

3. Even with the PG boosters your only going to afford to have a proto weapon an advanced sidearm then a proto support tool and two advanced support tools with enough room for proto grens.

I have found that you have to have 3 shield extenders 1 complex repper and 1 armour and 1 PG amplifier. Nothing else makes sense you cant afford to put complex damage mods with so few high slots and the low PG means that the only way to take a small advantage of the racial bonuses the 3 low slots have to be tied up in the way I mention. This means that there is no flexibilty at all in the low or high slots nothing else really makes any sense. The only flexibilty is in the weapon, equipment and grenade slots.

I have two possible solutions to put the Amarr Logi back on balance with the other classes.

The first and least drastic buff is to put the starting pg up even if it goes from 67 to 70 like the Amarr Assault this will help. I have no idea why the Amarr Logi has such a low PG when every other Logi has more PG than its assault variants why has the Amarr logi suit has less makes no logical sense to me at all.

A more dramatic buff would be another low slot to at least put another advanced plate or armour repper so that the racial benefit of the suit actually does benefit the user.

A PG buff of 3 and a extra low slot would be the biggest buff, however I don't know if this would make the Amarr Logi on parr or maybe give an edge to this suit so this may make the suit a little imbalanced.

I hope CCP can have a look at the suit because I genunily believe that the 67 PG is a mistake I cannot believe that the designer intended to give less pg to a logi suit that the assault/logi variants.

With what we have now I'd also prefer another highslot over a low. It would give the option of either another shield extender (no further loss of mobility, two plates is just a bad idea) or a damage mod so that we can actually perform as a mix of assault and logi.

But, there are the new armor modules coming. Like the ones that give less hp but no speed penalty, or the ones that are a mix of plate and repairer. Another low could be useful for that. Being able to fit a hacking module could be good too.

I think all the Logis have been feeling the SP pinch of course, but the Amarr has the short end of the stick in many ways. It's meant to be the "assault-Logi" (or "Combat-focused" suit if you prefer the in-game description), but the slot-short element makes it lose the logi flexibility while also lacking many of the assault strengths. I guess I already described above how the Gallente outclasses it in terms of armor-tanking, and I'm not sure if that's wrong necessarily (it is their thing).

However, assault suits gain speed, better regen, durability, and combat passives to differentiate them from something like a Logi (which gets more module slots). This "assault" Logi is the slowest Logi, it's only marginally more durable than the other logis for a full hit to assault traits, the slots don't allow it to compete in durability, the slot-restriction makes a slot-based class bonus less useful, and that's all aside from the mysteriously lower fitting traits compared to Logis and the Amarr assault. Insult to injury is the module slots being the same as the Amarr assault I think.

I don't know that an extra low slot would "fix" the suit, but it would certainly help I think.

Hmm? What? Self repairing armor modules coming? YES PLEASE!!!

(AWESOME news aside)Y'all are still not considering that an uneven amount of armor vs shields leaves one vulnerable to anti armor weapons - that is, you be gobbled up...

I am really looking forward to more Armor modules coming out, but not holding my breath.

This guy ^

Amarr logi is an assault suit that repairs itself and has a sidearm.

Amarr logi here.

In my opinion, what's lacking with this suit is the lower amount of base PG compared to the other logis, I can't think of a reason as to why it is like that.

Additionally, the advanced tier suit should have a side-arm slot, not just the proto.

This is exactly right we can live with everything else even less slots we just really need PG much more base PG than present frankly.


If we had more pg it wold solve the following:

We woudn't have to use a PG module to stay viable.

We get that extra low slot back for using a second complex or advanced repper so we can actually take advantage of our racial bonus.

It would allow us to have level 4 or proto gear for team support.

In an ideal world I would like the following

To be able to have 3 complex shileds

To be able to have flexibilty in the 3 low slots e.g.

1 complex plate 1 complex repper 1 adv repper. 2 complex reppers 1 adv plate, or 2 adv plate and 1 complex repper etc.

To have at the very least a level 4 equipment a level 3 equipment and a proto equipment

Proto grenades

Proto weapon and advanced sidearm.


So I am not expecting to be able to field multiple proto nanohives or anything like other logis can do. However I would like to have some flexibilty in my builds whithout putting other parts of the suit at a sevear disadvantage.

I kinda figured the Amarr Assault having more PG than the Logi was a bug or typo. I do think the logi needs another slot (low imho, but others feel differently).

Why is everyone throwing numbers around? Amarr logi is an assault suit that repairs itself and has a sidearm. If that's not a solid support for YOURSELF, until your team can help you.... well, then you need a better squad.

Also, shame on you if you chose high SP suit without understanding the costs and playstyle involved. Welcome to New Eden, we've all made mistakes like that.

This is exactly right we can live with everything else even less slots we just really need PG much more base PG than present frankly.


If we had more pg it wold solve the following:

We woudn't have to use a PG module to stay viable.

We get that extra low slot back for using a second complex or advanced repper so we can actually take advantage of our racial bonus.

It would allow us to have level 4 or proto gear for team support.

In an ideal world I would like the following

To be able to have 3 complex shileds

To be able to have flexibilty in the 3 low slots e.g.

1 complex plate 1 complex repper 1 adv repper. 2 complex reppers 1 adv plate, or 2 adv plate and 1 complex repper etc.

To have at the very least a level 4 equipment a level 3 equipment and a proto equipment

Proto grenades

Proto weapon and advanced sidearm.


So I am not expecting to be able to field multiple proto nanohives or anything like other logis can do. However I would like to have some flexibilty in my builds whithout putting other parts of the suit at a sevear disadvantage.

You think the Amarr Logi should only have 66 pg or that is a bug or typo as well? < serious question not sarcastic.

I'm responsible for - dropsuit balance

Well, you aren't doing the best of jobs, then.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

Plus sometimes, we only think were right. But mm. In a lot of cases yeah you could be doing a better job no offence, its your art and I'm telling what ate the weakest parts in my opinion .

Dropsuit balance and bonuses . You should give the basic suits a single bonus btw something the same across race. And they would stack with the nee bonuses and give a reason to bring basic to 5 becuase it would increase the bonus on all suits.

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

Have you maxed out your PG boosting skillz?
Have you maxed out your PG reducing skillz?
No further questions... =P

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

I give exact numbers in the previous page but 770k ssp nets me 1 extra pg from engineering level 4 to level 5 and 3 extra from complex pg mod. spending millions of sp into pg reduction in weapons (light / sidearm) may save me around an extra 4 or 5.

For a more indepth analyses please look at my previous posts in this thread.

Hold on - wait...
Lets put it this way - how much PG do you use\need ATM?
By my calculations, you can get up to 85.8 PG with the bonuses(yes I know it'll cost millions in SP - I'm just saying)PLUS, there are PG reducing skills for weapons THUS, the combination of the PG boosting & reducing skills at a low level MAY allow a decent amount of PG use...
Have you already exhausted these options? O.O

Hold on - wait...
Lets put it this way - how much PG do you use\need ATM?
By my calculations, you can get up to 85.8 PG with the bonuses(yes I know it'll cost millions in SP - I'm just saying)PLUS, there are PG reducing skills for weapons THUS, the combination of the PG boosting & reducing skills at a low level MAY allow a decent amount of PG use...
Have you already exhausted these options? O.O

I posted this to support but they directed me back more it has more details regarding my findings on the Amarr Logi!:

I am going through calculations for getting complex PG and extra 5 pecent (to top engineering to 5) to get the full use of my Amarr Proto Logi suit imagine to my horror that this 770 sp is going to cost me one low slot (complex PG mod) and only an extra 4 PG on my suit.

I really don't understand how I am to compete and support in a proto level encounters when the PG is so low.

I have calculated that with all core skills at maximum (core skill + engineering) I will have 83 total pg to spread between 3 high 3 low 3 equipment a grenade and two weapons (light _ sidearm)

For the amarr medium frame I will have a total of 88 pg with two less equipment slots.

I do not understand that while the CPU is higher for the logi suit the pg is less but the pg needs for equipment are very high.

I understand the need for less slots than other logi's due to game balance on the sidearm.

However I do not understand that whilest the other 3 logi's have higher PG's than their assault variants the Amarr Logi is the only one to have LESS than their assault variant.

WHAT THIS MEANS

The Amarr Logi is supposed to be a bit of a tank hybrid that can take damage dish some out (though not as good as assault) whilest having reaonsable level of on field battle support.

Due to the pg being so low though what its doing is actually crippling the suit in the following ways.

The only way to get decent equipment (and im not talking all prototype). You have to use a PG complex mod (cpu to pg).

This means that you sacrifice 1 slot to compensate for the sever lack of pg.

Your now down to two low slots for defence wich one of has to be a complex rep to take any kind of advantage of the racial bonus and one slot for armour.

THis means that all other suits (logi's and assaults) have a huge low slot advantage over the Amarr Logi able to put extra rep modules or extra armour modules. This is exasibated even further where some of the logi's have four low slots to.

Due to only having two slots this also means that you are unable to take advantage of one of the main strengths of the suit that is the racial modifier. You can only practicly run one complex rep at the time as you need the other two for a armour buffer and pg unit. To take advantage of the 25 percent extra hps from rep modules you really need two repair modules going at the same time either two enhanced or two complex which is impossible.

I know I can take advantage of weapon pg to squeeze some extra pg space later on but 25 percent of weapon pg is not going to save to much at all. (I have calculated a rough gain of about 3 for main weapon and 1 or 2 for side weapon for a huge SP cost).

Here is my example proto fit with level 4 engineering just to give you some idea of the equipment I am carrying:

3 complex shields
1 enhanced armor
1 enhanced armor repper (only level 3 in armor reppers atm)
1 enhanced PG unit
Proto Cathum Scrambler rifle
Toxin SMG
EX 11 packed AV gren
K17/D nano hive
Core Focused remote repair tool
Kin Nano Injector

thats 356 shield (level 5 shield extender, level 3 shield ops)
299 armor (Level 3 armour op, level 3 armour)

485/491 CPU
94/94 PG

So at the moment I can only fit 5 proto gear and 6 enhanced items and 1 standerd item maxing out PG.

Please could you look into this because I think that the 66 PG is a genuine mistake on creating the suit at the very least it should be the same as the assault class and if the logi suit follows the examples of others it should have more.

I just want to put my hat in the ring for nerfing the other 3 logis to the level of the ammar with 10 slots instead of 12.

Then the ammar would get 6fitting 3equipment 2 weapons and all other suits would get 7 fitting 3 equipment 1 weapon

Logis should have one less high/mid slot than the assault in trade for 2 more equipment slots. I think it's important to remember they have a built in +5 repper, that should count as a low slot and every logi across the board *but the ammar one * should lose a low.

I think having 3 equipment slots and a built in repper is worth having one less slot to fit stuff into. The Ammar suit is the only one in a good place, in fact it should gain at least one slot even.

But that's just my opinion :P

Thanks for thinking about bring bonuses down to basic suits <3

Please note that the only skills I have to get is Engineering 5 and The Weapon skills to lower PG.

As noted above I will have a maximum of 83 PG after spending a further 770k ( a gain of 1 pg) to get to engineering 5 and an extra 3 PG for using the complex PG module.

Your math for 85.8 is wrong im sorry.

Spending 3.2 million in Light Weapon and Sidearm FItting will net me about 4 total PG back.

I went through tons of fitting without the PG module and you have to make large sacrifices for example using an advanced shield and all advanced equipment in low slots meaning that you can only carry two proto equipment and or gun and equipment. Some of these fit required I carried no grenade etc. Without using a PG module even with +4 for spending 3.9 million sp your still going to have a suit that looks more like an advanced suit with the equipment on it than a proto level suit.

Doesn't matter if you nerf the others because they will still be far superior.

THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THE TINY PG POOL

To be competative you have to use a low slot for PG module

thats 2 low that you havent got any choice but to put an armour module in and a repper module in.

Why?

Having two reppers on base armour will do nothing under fire you need an armour there to actually rep.

Not having a repper in one of the slots mean you dont get to use racial bonus.

Every single proto Amarr logi will be forced to use armour, repper, PG unit due to the huge PG disparity we have real choice or flexibilty in the matter.

You have two solutions for balance:

Buff the PG in the Amarr Logi suit.

Nerf everyone elses PG (Assaults and Logi's) so they have the same difficulty in balancing their weapons, equipment and low and high slots.

I know from a techincal point which would be easiest!

Lets pretend that your running Amarr Logi as Assault.

Using only 1 equipment slot should be simpler right?

Wait a second though the Logi suit has 4 BASE PG LESS than the Amarr Assault.

So even not using the two equipment slots the logi suit is inferior to the Amarr Assault with PG this makes no sense whatsoever.

I, for one, feel like the whole team has been WAY more communicative lately.
It is very, very nice to see.
Thank you!

P-A-R-A-D-O-X

The way they do it and it is very very close to your figure is

Engineering = 1.25
Core Upgrades = 1.05
Base = 66

1.25*1.05*66=86.6

Whew. The amarr logi may still be of use!!!

So I know that this thread is about the Amarr logistics, and I agree with everyone that has posted requesting a slight change to the balance. But since you guys are all here, do you mind if I ask a question (as I am also looking to move into logistics).

Is there an advantage to going Gallente? (the OP mentioned it in the first post)

I know that at PROTO levels all these things balance out more, but is it really really bad to go Gallente until proto?

The numbers I'm seeing are,

Power grid, CPU, Shield HP and armor are consistent across the board. (Gallente get 30 more HP on armor at all levels and the Minmitar move faster and have more HP/s shield gain at all levels.)

The confusing part is the slot distribution

Minmitar listed first, then Gallente

T1: 2/2/3 vs. 0/2/3
Simply 2 less slots, otherwise same suit. Why?

T2: 3/3/3 vs. 2/3/3
Again, same suit minus 1 slot. Why?

T3: 4/4/4 vs. 3/5/4
Now for proto it balances with Minmitar working out to be a versatile hacking master, and the gallente able to equip his infantry gear with less issue in the PG/CPU department.

So I really have 3 questions.
1: Why is the gallente suit the same as the minmitar with simply less slots (or did I miss something)?
2: Is there any reason to go gallente unless you're simply looking long term proto gear?
3: Is the Gallente suit bonus meaningful? How much difference does it make to have that 25% lower PG/CPU for equipment?

Thank you so much for answering in advance, I really am just seeking info.

Maybe you guys are asking to much of your suits fitting,wanting proto light weapon and advanced side arm plus complex shields , advanced armour mods and equipment . On my proto mini logi a can not fit a proto weapon with complex SE ,adv armour and adv equipment. there simply is not enough CPU OR PG. I can fit complex SE with basic plates and rep, adv nano hive and repair tool basic nano needle and DU, at this point i can fit a gek and basic grenades or i can drop to standard AR replace basic arm rep for adv . to fit a proto weapon would mean using standard equipment and a standard armour tank.

So the question is should all logi suits have the cpu/pg to fit all proto weapons and complex modules and complex/adv equipment or should they like the other suits be made to make decisions on what is most important to them and sacrificing
other areas to allow the fits.

what fittings can be installed on gallante or caldari logi i do not know but id assume neither can fit proto/complex only fits.

For ammarr to balance needs a complete new slot layout poss 2high 6low 2 equip 1 Side arm 1 light weapon, grenade and removal of additional hp over caldari/galante suits. its easier to balance 4 distinct factions with 2 types of tank than having 3 factions sharing 1 tank and trying to make some cosmetic differences.To me it seems a no brain er that 4 factions should with 2 tanking types cover the spectrum from shield through to armour not have 1 armour and 3 omni -tanking factions.

Sidearm is a huge bonus for a logi. I'd probably give up an equipment slot on my MK.0 for one....
....
....
....
....not really, but you get the point.

Movement speed! that and the sidearm are all that matters to me, it wrenches my insides maybe u could release a aurum suit. maybe add a pistol to the sever

Agree on Amarr logi being subpar for all the various reasons already mentioned. Sidearm slot is not worth that much IMO. Plus its only useful at proto levels. Which I dont feel is a sustainable approach anyway. Considering the lack of PG it also makes a fit WITH a sidearm difficult AND you have to allocate SP into that to be effective.

I was actually planning on using laser logi and sidearm for close range. But again, its only doable in proto level.

Give the bonus to an actual logi role. Like remote rep and please please please give us remote infantry shield reps already, give a bonus to caldari and minmitar bonus for repping shield and amarr and gal for armor. It could be increased range or increased rep amount.

I see the bonus being trifold. Give the logi tree a bonus to rep range and pg/cpu bonus to equipment per level. Then give the racial version bonus to its rep type (shield/armor)

IF you can balance bonus to pg/cpu of equipment you could effectively lower the PG/CPU of the logi suit and keep "killers" out of the suit and actually create a defined role for it. In other words, a person wanting to use a logi for killing wouldnt be able to fit 4 complex dmg mods.

I know eve has always been known for having some fun unorthodox fits, and allowing that creativity. But please give a bonus for the actual role the suit provides rather than a random bonus that doesn't really apply to the dropsuit class.

Amarr have the slowest movement speed but the best intial shield/armour buff this is negated later on with the other logi's superior slots.

Best pure AV in the game would be Amarr logi Personal defence + Proto Swarms + 3 equipment slots for prox minex, remote explosives and nano hive.

Best offensive Logi = Caldari (which is why assaults are going into it)

Best support class = Galante

Best all rounder = Minimatar

Whew. The amarr logi may still be of use!!!

I do certainly agree with more PG. But it also looks like the PG is limited in the game so as to encourage specailization and the maxing of a few traits. In my opinion every proto suit should have enough PG and CPU to have a proto module of the most commonly used types IFF every skill that gave PG/CPU was maxed, every skill to decrease CPU/PG usage for each module, weapon, and equipment was maxed.

A little off topic but it still applies to the difference in CPU/PG in the Amarr Logi

(Red Bleach - Red Bleach? Excuse me? o.O & to some degree Terarrim)

Huh - what? Were you writing English? o.O
I'm a bit unclear to what you were saying... >.>

Anyways, I'm not(ATM)fussing much, as 1, I haven't maxed out my suit yet(I use advanced modules), & 2, I tend to hold back on going proto with equipment - so the lack of PG won't bother me for a while(although I'm near max ATM)...

Does one get extra from using proto equipment? Apart from nanohives that is... Do you get extra points for reviving a teammate with a proto nanite injector? Do you get more points for using a proto repair tool?(especially where points fro using same is limited\capped)

If the answers to those last questions is yes, then I see a need for it - if the answer is no, then why bother going proto? Save the CPU & PG use on those items for last, & if you can 'afford' to fit them, by all means do so, but if you can't, I don't see a problem(apart from the CPU & PG being uneven when compared to other logi suits)...

P-A-R-A-D-O-X - OUT!!! =]

No, no bonuses yet for proto equipment - the bonuses from proto modules and weapons shouldn't need to be expanded upon here. But in one of the posts by Cross Atu a developer had spoken to this, and IFF they listen and see the reasoning behind giving more points for going proto then there will be extra points for rezzing, repping, etc. for higher grade equipment. So, not yet, but we hope for it.

Otherwise it is only for the benefit of the team that one would get better equipment.

What? Where out of all that thread did you get that opinion? This is the thread of it being broke not amazing, stay on topic :P
Perhaps you could make another thread entitled "the AMARR Logi is Awesome!!" but we would certainly have to troll it. I know what you meant but i couldn't resist.

No, no bonuses yet for proto equipment - the bonuses from proto modules and weapons shouldn't need to be expanded upon here. But in one of the posts by Cross Atu a developer had spoken to this, and IFF they listen and see the reasoning behind giving more points for going proto then there will be extra points for rezzing, repping, etc. for higher grade equipment. So, not yet, but we hope for it.

Otherwise it is only for the benefit of the team that one would get better equipment.

For those wondering about the repair tool comment and the in depth explanation by Cross Atu and the response from the devs please see this Risk v Reward progression for support action

Initial HP
But to the Amarr Logi. I have been playing him a little more to verify what has been written in this post. He really is a unique character. Buffed HP stats seem to take the place of a H slot right out of the gate, when most Logis are 90/180 or 180/90 or the minmatar with 90/150 the AMARR is at 120/180. So, the armor is on par with the others, no bonuses there. On shields he has only 30 more or 50 less - that is and ADV Shield mod, nothing more. Granted you start with this but he might make a bigger impact on the Logi/Assault if he had the same HP as his basic frame counter part at 180/180. So that in comparison to any race he has an automatic Complex shield or armor mod. Yet, with the same amount of armor he is still slower than than the armor Logis. So, he gained what would be a High slot but only at a medium level. One fix is to keep the stat and add a High or Buff the Shield stat to a Complex Mod level - especially if he is going to be the Tanky Logi right out of the gate that suffers from fewer slots.

Speed
Next is his speed. He is the slowest, for no real reason as his armor is not greater than anyone elses, but that might just be the nature of the Amarr as the assaults are slowed as well, but cant compare the heavies yet. It seems that that is meant to mean they are a bit beefier... but they also have the best stamina. So while they cannot sprint as fast they can sprint greater distances and more often. Interesting choice, it certainly makes him unique. If it had been on the Minmatar that may make some more sense but it compensates a bit for his slow speed. But looking to the setup of the soldier we see that when we apply the armor modules it slows his sprinting speed. Meaning that to keep up with the group he will always be sprinting and then be a little gimped in weaving out of fire - slow targets are easier to hit. So his stamina regen is the balance for his speed but it can be brought to a point where wearing more armor will defeat the purpose of sprinting.

Shield Regen and Shield Delay
Second best shield regen 17, as opposed to 20 or 15. He has a standard shield regen time of 6 seconds BUT if his shields are depleted the time is reduced to 5 seconds. This guy is unique. What appears to be an armor tanker is better with shield tanking for his recharge rate and recharge time.

Implied play experience vs Real play
With his racial bonus one would normally believe that he is meant to be an armor tanker. But in play that fails as the Armor penalty to movement is too great and outweigh the benefits. What it seems to be is that he is meant to be in a constant state of repair and lose his shield in each encounter to get into armor only to have it repaired quickly. Equipping a shield extender and shield recharger with a shield regulator and armor repair mod would seem to be the way to get the most out of this guy in the beginning, but it also means playing smarter. The limitations of slots at the proto level means that one would need these to be complex mods of the highest order or a setup like:

Highs 2 shield extenders and 1 recharger w/ lows 1 recharger 1 armor and 1 repper or 1 armor and 2 reppers. So just focusing on Repair tanking and jump in and out of battle. Problem is he cant move fast enough to just jump in and out of battle. He may be able to outrun them in distance but not with speed so he must stand his position and have other players help take some of the heat at times.

Playing him in battle means walking an edge of always losing shields and but not losing all the armor. He lives for the Regen, and every skill should be focused to boost his initial hp and then his mods should focus on Regen. He is pretty unique and pretty fun but he cant fit into the role as is.

Corrections to Balance:
His role requires more CPU/PG - that is established and moot as an arguable point
It also requires 1 more High or Low slot
IN Favor of a HIGH - take advantage of his shields and shield recharge ability.
IN Favor of a LOW - More intune with established Lore and to fit this regen roll to either make him the best repair guy (currently beat by the Gallente with his many lows) or take the AMARR role and armor tank.

Lastly the sidearm issue. There have different suggestions of when to give him his 3E slots, the 1 proposed increase to a high or low slot, and when to give the character a sidearm. I would say immediately. This is the draw of the class. This is his purpose - with only 2E slots he is not really a logi and is more assault right from the start. The progression balance of the Caldari and Minmatar is pretty good. The Gallente is weighted to get everything at the Proto level and as is the AMARR. From a gaming standpoint that is not that fun. Giving an increase for every level is the reason for progression and gets rid of the Proto or Militia attitude. ADV should be used and should be a benefit for each class.

AMARR suffers from that attitude. And when we see that most other races get slot buffs in every class for their increase in skill level this should be the same with the AMARR LOGI and relegate his sidearm bonus as the starting bonus to set the class up as an Assault/Logi from the beginning. But, looking at the assaults that automatically makes him better than the assaults if one only looks at the slot count and not the other stats - but that speaks to balancing the Assaults more than the balance of the Logi's and that is another discussion.

What!?
"...keep 'killers' out of the suit...?"
Dude this is a first person shooter - we play because we like to shoot, & people get killed when they're shot(plus, there are guys with guns looking to shoot us 'everywhere') - it's Kill or be Killed...
Why should there be restrictions to a Logi with a strong offence?
THE FASTER YOU KILL AN ENEMY IS THE LESS TIME HES HAS TO KILL YOU(OR WEAKEN YOU FOR HIS TEAMMATES)...
Why the hec do you want to get in the way of that?
I as a Logi should run around without a gun then? Apparently, my only function is to support my team - right? Do you run around as a Logi with out a gun?
Hear what - play as a Logi with only a STD lvl scrambler pistol(without any damage mods of course)& see how good you can 'support your team' ok? Try it...

Anyways - there is nothing wrong with a Logi having a strong offence - leave that alone...

I still plan on going amarr logi after my optional respec. I have faith that CcP will bring balance to the force.

CCP's concept of balance is flimsy at best

I still plan on going amarr logi after my optional respec. I have faith that CcP will bring balance to the force.

Hi there.

I decided to go the logistics path in Dust, and as I like armor repair modules I chose Amarr because of the nice bonuses to it.
After 2 days now of playing I begun to notice something - the Amarr Logisuit is quite subpar when looking another, flat out better dropsuit -> the Gallente Logisuit.
Let me explain:

The T3 Amarr logisuit has 3x low slots, this results in one being able to carry 3x armor repairer modules at most.
The T3 Gallente logisuit has the amazing number of 5x low suits, making one being able to use 5x armor repairer modules.
Logistics Suit Bonus +1 HP to dropsuit armor repair rate per level.
Amarr Logi Bonus +5% to efficacy of armor repairer modules per level.
Amarr Repair Systems +5% to armor repair modules efficacy per level.
Complex Armor Repairer 5,0 HP/s.

These values only count if one has lvl 5 in the following skills skills:
Armor Repair Systems
Amarr Logistics Dropsuit / Gallente Logistics Dropsuit

Amarr Suit:

25%+25% = 50%
50% + 100% = 150%
150% / 100 = growth factor 1,50

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,5 = 7,5 HP/s
7,5 HP/s x 3 low slots = 22,5 HP/s
22,5 HP/s + 5 HP/s = 27,5 HP/s

Gallente Suit:

25% + 100% = 125%
125% / 100 = growth factor 1,25

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,25 = 6,25 HP/s
6,25 HP/s x 4 lowslots = 25 HP/s
25HP/s + 5 HP/s = 30 HP/s

6,25 HP/s x 5 lowslots = 31,25 HP/s
31,25 HP/s + 5HP/s = 36,25 HP/s


As you can see, the gallente dropsuit is superior in armor repairing because of its extra low slots.

I think it would be nice if the T3 Amarr Logisuit had one more low slot to make its suitbonus more useful for those (like me) who stack up on armor repair modules.



Need to end this thread now as I need to leave, but I will continue later about another amarr dropsuit topic that I have in mind.


- Haron Vathek

(sorry for any grammar / speling mistakes, english is not my native language)


Edit1: Fixed some wrong numbers

Agree with your post as long as the end result of balancing doesn't lead to a nerf for the Gallente logis, as a Gallente logi myself I say that we are on a fine thread of being terrible on the battlefield, or OP.

So I've been whining about this off and on for a bit and will continue to do so because I'm that sort of idiot. Anyway...

Proto Amarr medium frame 70 PG base

Proto Amarr logistics 66 PG base, Total module slots 6

Proto Gallente logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 8

Proto Minmatar logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 8

Proto Caldari logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 9


WTF CCP you give the medium frame suit more PG than the proto logistics, was the design teams thought when doing this screw the Amarr their logis don't get equipment? I mean the frame has more than the logi suit!

You thought that having the PG to equip decent equipment, a light weapon, and a side arm with a whopping 3 highs and 3 lows was going to be OP, but that having a Caldari logi that can stack 5 complex shield extenders (or damage mods), run proto of the kill everythng at every range gun (I.E. Tac AR), run 4 shield regulators, armor reppers, or plates if they wanted to, and have all the PG and CPU in the world is OK?

The Amarr logi suit is already paying for it's sidearm by having less module slots than all the other logi suits by 2.

Please, please, please, increase the PG on the dang suit to near the levels of all the others, I've given up on 78 like all my other logi-bros get, how about we split the difference and go 72?

Maybe then it won't be me and about 5 other stubborn fools who play this game trying to be Amarr and logi

Moved this from where I miss posted it in the General forums, I am sure others have broken it down just as well but I need to throw my analysis in too, even if it is a bit late to the party

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

Yes, that is the message overall: Don't nerf suits from what they are now, bring other suits up to par. The Amarr needs love. The Minmatar is perfectly balanced. Caldari seems balanced for combat and module variety. Gallente is balanced for module variety and equipment. Amarr is balance for... no it is not, nevermind.

Yes, that is the message overall: Don't nerf suits from what they are now, bring other suits up to par. The Amarr needs love. The Minmatar is perfectly balanced. Caldari seems balanced for combat and module variety. Gallente is balanced for module variety and equipment. Amarr is balance for... no it is not, nevermind.

Yeah, it needs some love, a touch more PG (should at least keep pace with it's racial assault counterpart and 1 more Low Power slot to allow better utility of it's racial skill buffs and we're in business IMO.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

Personally the PG has to be changed its way to low and is I believe a mistake on the devs part.

As for putting low or high slot I don't now I would personally like a low slot but then is it on part with other suits or is it then slightly better.

I don't want the characteristics changed I would like to try using the stupidly fast time to recharge rate on the shields and the very high passive bonuses of the suit for armour to make a Less overall HP suit but balanced with the best 0>full hp suit in the game that would make the suit have its on niche in combat.

For example having 2x shield extenders and 1x Shield recharge in the highs having 1 advanced or complex plate and 2x complex reppers in the lows (combined with level 5 in passives to get stamina and speed 5 percent to offset the armour slowness) would mean around 600 hps but stupidly fast shield regeneration on damage with low downtime on recharge and lowish armour but again the equivelant of a tier 2 repper on you at all times.

Personally people advocating for extra high are looking for damage mods and i dont think thats what the class is about so much, low slot addition would be less powerfull buff but add versatlity.

Maybe a PG upgrade would be best as long as its fairly significant and then have a look at the balance of the class after that.

Personally the PG has to be changed its way to low and is I believe a mistake on the devs part.

As for putting low or high slot I don't now I would personally like a low slot but then is it on part with other suits or is it then slightly better.

I don't want the characteristics changed I would like to try using the stupidly fast time to recharge rate on the shields and the very high passive bonuses of the suit for armour to make a Less overall HP suit but balanced with the best 0>full hp suit in the game that would make the suit have its on niche in combat.

For example having 2x shield extenders and 1x Shield recharge in the highs having 1 advanced or complex plate and 2x complex reppers in the lows (combined with level 5 in passives to get stamina and speed 5 percent to offset the armour slowness) would mean around 600 hps but stupidly fast shield regeneration on damage with low downtime on recharge and lowish armour but again the equivelant of a tier 2 repper on you at all times.

Personally people advocating for extra high are looking for damage mods and i dont think thats what the class is about so much, low slot addition would be less powerfull buff but add versatlity.

Maybe a PG upgrade would be best as long as its fairly significant and then have a look at the balance of the class after that.

First an informational side note, the Amarr line of racial suits is supposed to be armor tanked. Granted that doesn't mean it should possess no ability to use shield mods etc. but the racial balance is mar/gal favor armor and cal/min favor shields (with the note that winmatar do some quirky things and may not hold to a true pattern as clearly).

The main weakness of an active tank is alpha damage, in essence being 1-2 shotted before the rep/recharge can do you any good. 2x contact nades is 800 damage. A militia nade + one TAR round is ~478 damage (assuming no buffs from skills or damage mods and only frontal body shots).

The Gal suit can have a better active armor tank than the Amarr suit (and that's with max armor tanking skills for the Amarr suit). If we're establishing niche roles then of the two armor tankers (Gal / Amarr) one should be better situated for buffer tank and the other for active. With the touch up on PG and the extra Low Power slot the Amarr becomes able to active tank more effectively than the Gal suit while the greater number of Low Power slots on the Gal suit combined with the fittings savings buff allows for better buffer tank. This configuration still maintains the base "you pay more for flexibility" aspect of the Logi suit line in general. Honestly the Amarr suit would even be improved by moving one high slot over to the low for 2 high 4 low since it's a suit specifically created for an active armor tank (as both lore and the onboard suit buffs show us).
Based on internal Logi suit balance however adding a single low slow is superior to just moving one slot.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Yes I use 2 damage mods on my Amarr Proto Logi(APL) - one Light, one Sidearm - so what? The reason I want the extra slot isn't for more damage - I need it for shields which I lack in...

I build a self sufficient suit with which I can support my teammates & hold my own, because if I don't, I'll be spending my time respawning instead of supporting... Plus, my suit(s - I've made a hack focused suit)is of the most versatile NOT, because it has an extra low slot, but because I carry a swarm launcher & can aid in vehicular destruction...

Y'all need to ease off this 'a Logi isn't supposed to have a strong offence - that's not it's function' - the ability to efficiently take out enemies is just as important as being able to take a fair amount of damage regardless of which role you're playing... & if you disagree - just swap your weapon to a standard scrambler pistol with no damage mods, load up lots of armor, get into a game & see how much fun you have dying over & over at your disadvantages(slow & weak = easy target that only 'tickles' enemies - SMH)...

Again, because of the fact that the suit is already the slowest & has a race boost - which allows one to easily go without a low slot yet remain on par with a 4 low slot suit - the APL doesn't need another low slot...

I do not like the idea of using a suit with 225 shields & 569 armor - I prefer 300 or so of each... If you do not understand that either excessive shields & low armor or vice versa has disadvantages against certain weapons, all is lost... But then again - make suits of same, experiment & see, how well you do in battle - & don't forget to ONLY use a standard scrambler pistol with no damage mods, because 'offense' is not a function of Logistics right?

Oh, & only a suit's equipment slot & weapon variety dictates it's versatility...

PS: I would say do it without a weapon period, but we all know you can't...