*Clears Throat*
Another high powered slot please - the fact that Amarr logis get an amour repair boost lessens the need for more low powered based modules... =D

Did this thread just die because we are out of suggestions or arguments or because the new weapons came out and we can finally kill those Caldari shield tankers and new meat to pubstomp?

You are completely right. Gallente could do it better, less stamina and base HP, but it could do the repair much better. Just goes to show you what a great suit the Gallente is - many options there. Amarr... not so many and needs work.

...

This guy ^

Amarr logi is an assault suit that repairs itself and has a sidearm.

This is exactly right we can live with everything else even less slots we just really need PG much more base PG than present frankly.


If we had more pg it wold solve the following:

We woudn't have to use a PG module to stay viable.

We get that extra low slot back for using a second complex or advanced repper so we can actually take advantage of our racial bonus.

It would allow us to have level 4 or proto gear for team support.

In an ideal world I would like the following

To be able to have 3 complex shileds

To be able to have flexibilty in the 3 low slots e.g.

1 complex plate 1 complex repper 1 adv repper. 2 complex reppers 1 adv plate, or 2 adv plate and 1 complex repper etc.

To have at the very least a level 4 equipment a level 3 equipment and a proto equipment

Proto grenades

Proto weapon and advanced sidearm.


So I am not expecting to be able to field multiple proto nanohives or anything like other logis can do. However I would like to have some flexibilty in my builds whithout putting other parts of the suit at a sevear disadvantage.

You think the Amarr Logi should only have 66 pg or that is a bug or typo as well? < serious question not sarcastic.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

For those wondering about the repair tool comment and the in depth explanation by Cross Atu and the response from the devs please see this Risk v Reward progression for support action

Initial HP
But to the Amarr Logi. I have been playing him a little more to verify what has been written in this post. He really is a unique character. Buffed HP stats seem to take the place of a H slot right out of the gate, when most Logis are 90/180 or 180/90 or the minmatar with 90/150 the AMARR is at 120/180. So, the armor is on par with the others, no bonuses there. On shields he has only 30 more or 50 less - that is and ADV Shield mod, nothing more. Granted you start with this but he might make a bigger impact on the Logi/Assault if he had the same HP as his basic frame counter part at 180/180. So that in comparison to any race he has an automatic Complex shield or armor mod. Yet, with the same amount of armor he is still slower than than the armor Logis. So, he gained what would be a High slot but only at a medium level. One fix is to keep the stat and add a High or Buff the Shield stat to a Complex Mod level - especially if he is going to be the Tanky Logi right out of the gate that suffers from fewer slots.

Speed
Next is his speed. He is the slowest, for no real reason as his armor is not greater than anyone elses, but that might just be the nature of the Amarr as the assaults are slowed as well, but cant compare the heavies yet. It seems that that is meant to mean they are a bit beefier... but they also have the best stamina. So while they cannot sprint as fast they can sprint greater distances and more often. Interesting choice, it certainly makes him unique. If it had been on the Minmatar that may make some more sense but it compensates a bit for his slow speed. But looking to the setup of the soldier we see that when we apply the armor modules it slows his sprinting speed. Meaning that to keep up with the group he will always be sprinting and then be a little gimped in weaving out of fire - slow targets are easier to hit. So his stamina regen is the balance for his speed but it can be brought to a point where wearing more armor will defeat the purpose of sprinting.

Shield Regen and Shield Delay
Second best shield regen 17, as opposed to 20 or 15. He has a standard shield regen time of 6 seconds BUT if his shields are depleted the time is reduced to 5 seconds. This guy is unique. What appears to be an armor tanker is better with shield tanking for his recharge rate and recharge time.

Implied play experience vs Real play
With his racial bonus one would normally believe that he is meant to be an armor tanker. But in play that fails as the Armor penalty to movement is too great and outweigh the benefits. What it seems to be is that he is meant to be in a constant state of repair and lose his shield in each encounter to get into armor only to have it repaired quickly. Equipping a shield extender and shield recharger with a shield regulator and armor repair mod would seem to be the way to get the most out of this guy in the beginning, but it also means playing smarter. The limitations of slots at the proto level means that one would need these to be complex mods of the highest order or a setup like:

Highs 2 shield extenders and 1 recharger w/ lows 1 recharger 1 armor and 1 repper or 1 armor and 2 reppers. So just focusing on Repair tanking and jump in and out of battle. Problem is he cant move fast enough to just jump in and out of battle. He may be able to outrun them in distance but not with speed so he must stand his position and have other players help take some of the heat at times.

Playing him in battle means walking an edge of always losing shields and but not losing all the armor. He lives for the Regen, and every skill should be focused to boost his initial hp and then his mods should focus on Regen. He is pretty unique and pretty fun but he cant fit into the role as is.

Corrections to Balance:
His role requires more CPU/PG - that is established and moot as an arguable point
It also requires 1 more High or Low slot
IN Favor of a HIGH - take advantage of his shields and shield recharge ability.
IN Favor of a LOW - More intune with established Lore and to fit this regen roll to either make him the best repair guy (currently beat by the Gallente with his many lows) or take the AMARR role and armor tank.

Lastly the sidearm issue. There have different suggestions of when to give him his 3E slots, the 1 proposed increase to a high or low slot, and when to give the character a sidearm. I would say immediately. This is the draw of the class. This is his purpose - with only 2E slots he is not really a logi and is more assault right from the start. The progression balance of the Caldari and Minmatar is pretty good. The Gallente is weighted to get everything at the Proto level and as is the AMARR. From a gaming standpoint that is not that fun. Giving an increase for every level is the reason for progression and gets rid of the Proto or Militia attitude. ADV should be used and should be a benefit for each class.

AMARR suffers from that attitude. And when we see that most other races get slot buffs in every class for their increase in skill level this should be the same with the AMARR LOGI and relegate his sidearm bonus as the starting bonus to set the class up as an Assault/Logi from the beginning. But, looking at the assaults that automatically makes him better than the assaults if one only looks at the slot count and not the other stats - but that speaks to balancing the Assaults more than the balance of the Logi's and that is another discussion.

I still plan on going amarr logi after my optional respec. I have faith that CcP will bring balance to the force.

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

First an informational side note, the Amarr line of racial suits is supposed to be armor tanked. Granted that doesn't mean it should possess no ability to use shield mods etc. but the racial balance is mar/gal favor armor and cal/min favor shields (with the note that winmatar do some quirky things and may not hold to a true pattern as clearly).

The main weakness of an active tank is alpha damage, in essence being 1-2 shotted before the rep/recharge can do you any good. 2x contact nades is 800 damage. A militia nade + one TAR round is ~478 damage (assuming no buffs from skills or damage mods and only frontal body shots).

The Gal suit can have a better active armor tank than the Amarr suit (and that's with max armor tanking skills for the Amarr suit). If we're establishing niche roles then of the two armor tankers (Gal / Amarr) one should be better situated for buffer tank and the other for active. With the touch up on PG and the extra Low Power slot the Amarr becomes able to active tank more effectively than the Gal suit while the greater number of Low Power slots on the Gal suit combined with the fittings savings buff allows for better buffer tank. This configuration still maintains the base "you pay more for flexibility" aspect of the Logi suit line in general. Honestly the Amarr suit would even be improved by moving one high slot over to the low for 2 high 4 low since it's a suit specifically created for an active armor tank (as both lore and the onboard suit buffs show us).
Based on internal Logi suit balance however adding a single low slow is superior to just moving one slot.

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I can't comment on how run speed would effect suit balance in this case (I mean I'd love to move faster but I'm not quite sure where that scales off the top of my head).

PG seems pretty much needed to the point where I honestly entertain the idea that the wrong values were input at build release (maybe there's a great fitting I'm missing that doesn't guzzle PG but usually I'm not that bad at fittings and so far I'm not seeing it).

I still think another Low Power slot is important/nearly requisite as well just to bring the Amarr suit into line with the Gal suit when it comes to tank value (and since the racial buff of the Amarr suit is about active tanking this seems like an area where it's got to be able to compete).

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ps ~ page 10 does seem a bit far back