I understand that the sidearm is good, but really, 3 low slots against 5 from the Gallente? It's a little too much, And the gallente actually gets more Infantry slots. lol

I'm having a hard time being a medic with my amarr suit because I can't use naniteinjector/nanohives/repair tools.
Having one less infantry slot is enough of a penalty for the sidearm. That's a fact.

Llan Heindell.

For a true Logistics the side arm is not needed. CCP had intended for the Amarr to work as the "assault" Logi but we see how that worked out.

I'd given this some more thought, and think the Amarr Logi is more than a little off.

Caldari/Gallente/Minmatar all have 12-slot totals at Proto:
C=5H 4L 3E=12
G=3H 5L 4E=12
M=4H 4L 4E=12

The Amarr has 9 (3/3/3) and a sidearm. It's also worth mentioning that the sidearm doesn't become a factor till proto level, so it's not really a balancing factor on the lower tiers. Either way, they're effectively claim that ONE sidearm slot equals THREE slots, right?

However, if you check out something like the Caldari Assault for comparison (4H 3L) there's only a two-slot difference in modules capacity between the assault and the Logistics - the Logi has +2 module fitting that sets it apart from the assault version. The Amarr assault and logi are inexplicably the same - 3H 3L.

The PG difference seems like a typo honestly. Every other logistics/assault comparison will show the logistics getting higher PG (for fitting more crap), and the Amarr logistics mysteriously has less PG than the assault and basic frames.

I think the Amarr Logi does need to be better than the Amarr Assault in terms of slots, even with a sidearm. I'd give the Logistics ONE more low slot to make it 3H 4L. Then it's trading two slots for the sidearm.

The assault class needs other tweaks as well, but I think that would be fair to the Amarr Logi.

I like your enthusiasm, but make it a low slot and you have a deal. Add a piece of equipment for a bonus. Amarr are armor driven, a High slot would mean more shields and would make it more Caldari... no, switch it to a low slot.

lvl 1 2/2/2
Adv 3/3/3
Proto 3/4/3

or 2/2/2
3/4/2
3/4/3

That is the way i see it. 1 side arm bonus is not equal to -1/-1/-2 in comparison to the other logis and the base logi from chromosome. He needs to be more. A beefier logi that loses an equipment slot and a high in the end for bonuses to armor.
Sure, it might seem op for some people, but it just seems right.

only AV & the laser profits from the sidearm because it has no other way of engaging up close. all other weapons listed can easily fight on their own at close range and the reloading time is not even long. the sidearms wont even come to use most of the time because the average engagement range is beyond 20m and all the sidearms have ~15 optimal range.

the sidearm is definately not worth 2 slots, especially when dont get it before proto. the AR is still superb at all ranges, why would someone take any other weapon?

my opinion stands, give the amarr logi the sidearm from the beginning and keep the slot layout as it is and incease the PG/CPU. amarr is the laser faction and the laser is useless up close thus you need a sidearm thus let them carry one.

Still stupidly gimped. So a the Amarr has higher armor than the Gallente? Good. The Gallente has 5, count them 5 that he could dump armor into - i've seen it in stories. All the logis have a wider versatility than the Amarr. That is part of the reason for increasing his slot count or his equipment count.

As it stands he is soooo middle of the road.. Coolest looking armor, most average presence on the battlefield. Mediocre, characterless, common, conventional, dull, humdrum, inferior, intermediate, ordinary, passable, pedestrian, second-rate, undistinguished, unexceptional, uninspired, vanilla - when he is in proto form. Its' like he's missing the next level, a proto +1 or something.

and yes a thesaurus was involved.

I would rather like to see the layout look like this:
hi/low/equipment
standard 2/2/2 + side arm
advanced 2/3/2 + side arm
proto 3/3/3 + side arm
+ a PG/CPU boost

I think 3/3/3/sidearm is good enough at proto, it allows you to choose from a vast amount of different fits which makes it a real good support suit. it is strange that you dont get the major benefit of the amarr logi till proto levels but you already pay for it at advanced level. just give the suit the side arm from the beginning and increase its PG/CPU to be able to fit it.

Love it. Ask for the most so that when they back it off it comes out to workable. I agree that if I could push for the best it would be a 4/5/3 with a side arm. Very much like the Gallente without the extra equipment slots. It would be OP as hell, but I would love it.

using mini logi at mo , but intend on unlocking all logi suits ,so would like them to have different roles within the logistics umbrella. As amarr is supposed to be the more combat focused , why not give std and advanced versions a side arm and the proto 2 light weapon slots.cpu/pg can be altered to finely balance, they loose logistical utility while gaining combat focused utility , allowing them to perform maybe something more like a combat engineer rather than medic/supply/fire support combo logistics they are at present .maybe this would encroach on the assault or heavy roles to much,but it would make logistics an interesting career if all 4 factions had there own specialty niche within the logistics bracket.

I've been running the proto suit a lot more lately and there have been times where it was fun to use. I'd move forward, encounter some resistance and retreat into cover as my armor started to take damage. Then the guy I was fighting charges in to try and finish me off, not realizing that my armor is repairing and that I have my smg out. I've even gotten a few kills that way. A few problems though

1) If you aren't literally right next to cover, the armor reps don't save you. I'm running enhanced plate and two complex reppers.
2) If the guy you bait in by falling back is using a proto suit, you're a goner. That stunt only works against standard or militia suits. Against advanced suit enemies it's a bit of a coin toss.
3) Doing this in any meaningful way seems to require a ton more SP than other races, since you absolutely rely on dual tanking. There's no way in hell you can rely on armor alone. If you try that you get swatted down like a starter suit. I have 10.5 million SP and I the only proto level gear I can use is armor repair modules and my suit. Everything else is at advanced (enhanced extenders, plates etc).

This is not a complaint but feedback regarding the Proto Logi Suit for the Amarr.

There needs to be a significant disadvantage given to the Amarr Logi suit due to its advanatge of the sidearm however I believe that the balancing has gone a little to far meaning that there is a PG or slot issue.


Ok first of all I really dont understand why the logi has a pg of 67 with fewer slots than other logi's they are allready at a disadvantage due to not having much room for cpu or pg boosters. In order to have a reasonable offence / support hybrid logi you are required to get a PG booster in one of the 3 low slots this has the following implications:

1. You can't take full advantage of the armours racial speclaisation bonus as basicly you will have to run with one armor and 1 complex repper due to the complex PG being in low slot.

2. This means that with low high slots and only two low slots the final armor and shield stats for total hit points are probably far lower than the other three logi's with only a slight hit point rep advantage.

3. Even with the PG boosters your only going to afford to have a proto weapon an advanced sidearm then a proto support tool and two advanced support tools with enough room for proto grens.

I have found that you have to have 3 shield extenders 1 complex repper and 1 armour and 1 PG amplifier. Nothing else makes sense you cant afford to put complex damage mods with so few high slots and the low PG means that the only way to take a small advantage of the racial bonuses the 3 low slots have to be tied up in the way I mention. This means that there is no flexibilty at all in the low or high slots nothing else really makes any sense. The only flexibilty is in the weapon, equipment and grenade slots.

I have two possible solutions to put the Amarr Logi back on balance with the other classes.

The first and least drastic buff is to put the starting pg up even if it goes from 67 to 70 like the Amarr Assault this will help. I have no idea why the Amarr Logi has such a low PG when every other Logi has more PG than its assault variants why has the Amarr logi suit has less makes no logical sense to me at all.

A more dramatic buff would be another low slot to at least put another advanced plate or armour repper so that the racial benefit of the suit actually does benefit the user.

A PG buff of 3 and a extra low slot would be the biggest buff, however I don't know if this would make the Amarr Logi on parr or maybe give an edge to this suit so this may make the suit a little imbalanced.

I hope CCP can have a look at the suit because I genunily believe that the 67 PG is a mistake I cannot believe that the designer intended to give less pg to a logi suit that the assault/logi variants.

With what we have now I'd also prefer another highslot over a low. It would give the option of either another shield extender (no further loss of mobility, two plates is just a bad idea) or a damage mod so that we can actually perform as a mix of assault and logi.

But, there are the new armor modules coming. Like the ones that give less hp but no speed penalty, or the ones that are a mix of plate and repairer. Another low could be useful for that. Being able to fit a hacking module could be good too.

Why is everyone throwing numbers around? Amarr logi is an assault suit that repairs itself and has a sidearm. If that's not a solid support for YOURSELF, until your team can help you.... well, then you need a better squad.

Also, shame on you if you chose high SP suit without understanding the costs and playstyle involved. Welcome to New Eden, we've all made mistakes like that.

This is exactly right we can live with everything else even less slots we just really need PG much more base PG than present frankly.


If we had more pg it wold solve the following:

We woudn't have to use a PG module to stay viable.

We get that extra low slot back for using a second complex or advanced repper so we can actually take advantage of our racial bonus.

It would allow us to have level 4 or proto gear for team support.

In an ideal world I would like the following

To be able to have 3 complex shileds

To be able to have flexibilty in the 3 low slots e.g.

1 complex plate 1 complex repper 1 adv repper. 2 complex reppers 1 adv plate, or 2 adv plate and 1 complex repper etc.

To have at the very least a level 4 equipment a level 3 equipment and a proto equipment

Proto grenades

Proto weapon and advanced sidearm.


So I am not expecting to be able to field multiple proto nanohives or anything like other logis can do. However I would like to have some flexibilty in my builds whithout putting other parts of the suit at a sevear disadvantage.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

I give exact numbers in the previous page but 770k ssp nets me 1 extra pg from engineering level 4 to level 5 and 3 extra from complex pg mod. spending millions of sp into pg reduction in weapons (light / sidearm) may save me around an extra 4 or 5.

For a more indepth analyses please look at my previous posts in this thread.

Please note that the only skills I have to get is Engineering 5 and The Weapon skills to lower PG.

As noted above I will have a maximum of 83 PG after spending a further 770k ( a gain of 1 pg) to get to engineering 5 and an extra 3 PG for using the complex PG module.

Your math for 85.8 is wrong im sorry.

Spending 3.2 million in Light Weapon and Sidearm FItting will net me about 4 total PG back.

I went through tons of fitting without the PG module and you have to make large sacrifices for example using an advanced shield and all advanced equipment in low slots meaning that you can only carry two proto equipment and or gun and equipment. Some of these fit required I carried no grenade etc. Without using a PG module even with +4 for spending 3.9 million sp your still going to have a suit that looks more like an advanced suit with the equipment on it than a proto level suit.

Doesn't matter if you nerf the others because they will still be far superior.

THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THE TINY PG POOL

To be competative you have to use a low slot for PG module

thats 2 low that you havent got any choice but to put an armour module in and a repper module in.

Why?

Having two reppers on base armour will do nothing under fire you need an armour there to actually rep.

Not having a repper in one of the slots mean you dont get to use racial bonus.

Every single proto Amarr logi will be forced to use armour, repper, PG unit due to the huge PG disparity we have real choice or flexibilty in the matter.

You have two solutions for balance:

Buff the PG in the Amarr Logi suit.

Nerf everyone elses PG (Assaults and Logi's) so they have the same difficulty in balancing their weapons, equipment and low and high slots.

I know from a techincal point which would be easiest!

Lets pretend that your running Amarr Logi as Assault.

Using only 1 equipment slot should be simpler right?

Wait a second though the Logi suit has 4 BASE PG LESS than the Amarr Assault.

So even not using the two equipment slots the logi suit is inferior to the Amarr Assault with PG this makes no sense whatsoever.

The way they do it and it is very very close to your figure is

Engineering = 1.25
Core Upgrades = 1.05
Base = 66

1.25*1.05*66=86.6

Agree on Amarr logi being subpar for all the various reasons already mentioned. Sidearm slot is not worth that much IMO. Plus its only useful at proto levels. Which I dont feel is a sustainable approach anyway. Considering the lack of PG it also makes a fit WITH a sidearm difficult AND you have to allocate SP into that to be effective.

I was actually planning on using laser logi and sidearm for close range. But again, its only doable in proto level.

Give the bonus to an actual logi role. Like remote rep and please please please give us remote infantry shield reps already, give a bonus to caldari and minmitar bonus for repping shield and amarr and gal for armor. It could be increased range or increased rep amount.

I see the bonus being trifold. Give the logi tree a bonus to rep range and pg/cpu bonus to equipment per level. Then give the racial version bonus to its rep type (shield/armor)

IF you can balance bonus to pg/cpu of equipment you could effectively lower the PG/CPU of the logi suit and keep "killers" out of the suit and actually create a defined role for it. In other words, a person wanting to use a logi for killing wouldnt be able to fit 4 complex dmg mods.

I know eve has always been known for having some fun unorthodox fits, and allowing that creativity. But please give a bonus for the actual role the suit provides rather than a random bonus that doesn't really apply to the dropsuit class.

I do certainly agree with more PG. But it also looks like the PG is limited in the game so as to encourage specailization and the maxing of a few traits. In my opinion every proto suit should have enough PG and CPU to have a proto module of the most commonly used types IFF every skill that gave PG/CPU was maxed, every skill to decrease CPU/PG usage for each module, weapon, and equipment was maxed.

A little off topic but it still applies to the difference in CPU/PG in the Amarr Logi

No, no bonuses yet for proto equipment - the bonuses from proto modules and weapons shouldn't need to be expanded upon here. But in one of the posts by Cross Atu a developer had spoken to this, and IFF they listen and see the reasoning behind giving more points for going proto then there will be extra points for rezzing, repping, etc. for higher grade equipment. So, not yet, but we hope for it.

Otherwise it is only for the benefit of the team that one would get better equipment.

CCP's concept of balance is flimsy at best

Agree with your post as long as the end result of balancing doesn't lead to a nerf for the Gallente logis, as a Gallente logi myself I say that we are on a fine thread of being terrible on the battlefield, or OP.

So I've been whining about this off and on for a bit and will continue to do so because I'm that sort of idiot. Anyway...

Proto Amarr medium frame 70 PG base

Proto Amarr logistics 66 PG base, Total module slots 6

Proto Gallente logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 8

Proto Minmatar logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 8

Proto Caldari logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 9


WTF CCP you give the medium frame suit more PG than the proto logistics, was the design teams thought when doing this screw the Amarr their logis don't get equipment? I mean the frame has more than the logi suit!

You thought that having the PG to equip decent equipment, a light weapon, and a side arm with a whopping 3 highs and 3 lows was going to be OP, but that having a Caldari logi that can stack 5 complex shield extenders (or damage mods), run proto of the kill everythng at every range gun (I.E. Tac AR), run 4 shield regulators, armor reppers, or plates if they wanted to, and have all the PG and CPU in the world is OK?

The Amarr logi suit is already paying for it's sidearm by having less module slots than all the other logi suits by 2.

Please, please, please, increase the PG on the dang suit to near the levels of all the others, I've given up on 78 like all my other logi-bros get, how about we split the difference and go 72?

Maybe then it won't be me and about 5 other stubborn fools who play this game trying to be Amarr and logi

Moved this from where I miss posted it in the General forums, I am sure others have broken it down just as well but I need to throw my analysis in too, even if it is a bit late to the party

Yes, that is the message overall: Don't nerf suits from what they are now, bring other suits up to par. The Amarr needs love. The Minmatar is perfectly balanced. Caldari seems balanced for combat and module variety. Gallente is balanced for module variety and equipment. Amarr is balance for... no it is not, nevermind.

Personally the PG has to be changed its way to low and is I believe a mistake on the devs part.

As for putting low or high slot I don't now I would personally like a low slot but then is it on part with other suits or is it then slightly better.

I don't want the characteristics changed I would like to try using the stupidly fast time to recharge rate on the shields and the very high passive bonuses of the suit for armour to make a Less overall HP suit but balanced with the best 0>full hp suit in the game that would make the suit have its on niche in combat.

For example having 2x shield extenders and 1x Shield recharge in the highs having 1 advanced or complex plate and 2x complex reppers in the lows (combined with level 5 in passives to get stamina and speed 5 percent to offset the armour slowness) would mean around 600 hps but stupidly fast shield regeneration on damage with low downtime on recharge and lowish armour but again the equivelant of a tier 2 repper on you at all times.

Personally people advocating for extra high are looking for damage mods and i dont think thats what the class is about so much, low slot addition would be less powerfull buff but add versatlity.

Maybe a PG upgrade would be best as long as its fairly significant and then have a look at the balance of the class after that.