For those wondering about the repair tool comment and the in depth explanation by Cross Atu and the response from the devs please see this Risk v Reward progression for support action

Initial HP
But to the Amarr Logi. I have been playing him a little more to verify what has been written in this post. He really is a unique character. Buffed HP stats seem to take the place of a H slot right out of the gate, when most Logis are 90/180 or 180/90 or the minmatar with 90/150 the AMARR is at 120/180. So, the armor is on par with the others, no bonuses there. On shields he has only 30 more or 50 less - that is and ADV Shield mod, nothing more. Granted you start with this but he might make a bigger impact on the Logi/Assault if he had the same HP as his basic frame counter part at 180/180. So that in comparison to any race he has an automatic Complex shield or armor mod. Yet, with the same amount of armor he is still slower than than the armor Logis. So, he gained what would be a High slot but only at a medium level. One fix is to keep the stat and add a High or Buff the Shield stat to a Complex Mod level - especially if he is going to be the Tanky Logi right out of the gate that suffers from fewer slots.

Speed
Next is his speed. He is the slowest, for no real reason as his armor is not greater than anyone elses, but that might just be the nature of the Amarr as the assaults are slowed as well, but cant compare the heavies yet. It seems that that is meant to mean they are a bit beefier... but they also have the best stamina. So while they cannot sprint as fast they can sprint greater distances and more often. Interesting choice, it certainly makes him unique. If it had been on the Minmatar that may make some more sense but it compensates a bit for his slow speed. But looking to the setup of the soldier we see that when we apply the armor modules it slows his sprinting speed. Meaning that to keep up with the group he will always be sprinting and then be a little gimped in weaving out of fire - slow targets are easier to hit. So his stamina regen is the balance for his speed but it can be brought to a point where wearing more armor will defeat the purpose of sprinting.

Shield Regen and Shield Delay
Second best shield regen 17, as opposed to 20 or 15. He has a standard shield regen time of 6 seconds BUT if his shields are depleted the time is reduced to 5 seconds. This guy is unique. What appears to be an armor tanker is better with shield tanking for his recharge rate and recharge time.

Implied play experience vs Real play
With his racial bonus one would normally believe that he is meant to be an armor tanker. But in play that fails as the Armor penalty to movement is too great and outweigh the benefits. What it seems to be is that he is meant to be in a constant state of repair and lose his shield in each encounter to get into armor only to have it repaired quickly. Equipping a shield extender and shield recharger with a shield regulator and armor repair mod would seem to be the way to get the most out of this guy in the beginning, but it also means playing smarter. The limitations of slots at the proto level means that one would need these to be complex mods of the highest order or a setup like:

Highs 2 shield extenders and 1 recharger w/ lows 1 recharger 1 armor and 1 repper or 1 armor and 2 reppers. So just focusing on Repair tanking and jump in and out of battle. Problem is he cant move fast enough to just jump in and out of battle. He may be able to outrun them in distance but not with speed so he must stand his position and have other players help take some of the heat at times.

Playing him in battle means walking an edge of always losing shields and but not losing all the armor. He lives for the Regen, and every skill should be focused to boost his initial hp and then his mods should focus on Regen. He is pretty unique and pretty fun but he cant fit into the role as is.

Corrections to Balance:
His role requires more CPU/PG - that is established and moot as an arguable point
It also requires 1 more High or Low slot
IN Favor of a HIGH - take advantage of his shields and shield recharge ability.
IN Favor of a LOW - More intune with established Lore and to fit this regen roll to either make him the best repair guy (currently beat by the Gallente with his many lows) or take the AMARR role and armor tank.

Lastly the sidearm issue. There have different suggestions of when to give him his 3E slots, the 1 proposed increase to a high or low slot, and when to give the character a sidearm. I would say immediately. This is the draw of the class. This is his purpose - with only 2E slots he is not really a logi and is more assault right from the start. The progression balance of the Caldari and Minmatar is pretty good. The Gallente is weighted to get everything at the Proto level and as is the AMARR. From a gaming standpoint that is not that fun. Giving an increase for every level is the reason for progression and gets rid of the Proto or Militia attitude. ADV should be used and should be a benefit for each class.

AMARR suffers from that attitude. And when we see that most other races get slot buffs in every class for their increase in skill level this should be the same with the AMARR LOGI and relegate his sidearm bonus as the starting bonus to set the class up as an Assault/Logi from the beginning. But, looking at the assaults that automatically makes him better than the assaults if one only looks at the slot count and not the other stats - but that speaks to balancing the Assaults more than the balance of the Logi's and that is another discussion.

What!?
"...keep 'killers' out of the suit...?"
Dude this is a first person shooter - we play because we like to shoot, & people get killed when they're shot(plus, there are guys with guns looking to shoot us 'everywhere') - it's Kill or be Killed...
Why should there be restrictions to a Logi with a strong offence?
THE FASTER YOU KILL AN ENEMY IS THE LESS TIME HES HAS TO KILL YOU(OR WEAKEN YOU FOR HIS TEAMMATES)...
Why the hec do you want to get in the way of that?
I as a Logi should run around without a gun then? Apparently, my only function is to support my team - right? Do you run around as a Logi with out a gun?
Hear what - play as a Logi with only a STD lvl scrambler pistol(without any damage mods of course)& see how good you can 'support your team' ok? Try it...

Anyways - there is nothing wrong with a Logi having a strong offence - leave that alone...

I still plan on going amarr logi after my optional respec. I have faith that CcP will bring balance to the force.

CCP's concept of balance is flimsy at best

I still plan on going amarr logi after my optional respec. I have faith that CcP will bring balance to the force.

Hi there.

I decided to go the logistics path in Dust, and as I like armor repair modules I chose Amarr because of the nice bonuses to it.
After 2 days now of playing I begun to notice something - the Amarr Logisuit is quite subpar when looking another, flat out better dropsuit -> the Gallente Logisuit.
Let me explain:

The T3 Amarr logisuit has 3x low slots, this results in one being able to carry 3x armor repairer modules at most.
The T3 Gallente logisuit has the amazing number of 5x low suits, making one being able to use 5x armor repairer modules.
Logistics Suit Bonus +1 HP to dropsuit armor repair rate per level.
Amarr Logi Bonus +5% to efficacy of armor repairer modules per level.
Amarr Repair Systems +5% to armor repair modules efficacy per level.
Complex Armor Repairer 5,0 HP/s.

These values only count if one has lvl 5 in the following skills skills:
Armor Repair Systems
Amarr Logistics Dropsuit / Gallente Logistics Dropsuit

Amarr Suit:

25%+25% = 50%
50% + 100% = 150%
150% / 100 = growth factor 1,50

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,5 = 7,5 HP/s
7,5 HP/s x 3 low slots = 22,5 HP/s
22,5 HP/s + 5 HP/s = 27,5 HP/s

Gallente Suit:

25% + 100% = 125%
125% / 100 = growth factor 1,25

5 HP/s x growth factor 1,25 = 6,25 HP/s
6,25 HP/s x 4 lowslots = 25 HP/s
25HP/s + 5 HP/s = 30 HP/s

6,25 HP/s x 5 lowslots = 31,25 HP/s
31,25 HP/s + 5HP/s = 36,25 HP/s


As you can see, the gallente dropsuit is superior in armor repairing because of its extra low slots.

I think it would be nice if the T3 Amarr Logisuit had one more low slot to make its suitbonus more useful for those (like me) who stack up on armor repair modules.



Need to end this thread now as I need to leave, but I will continue later about another amarr dropsuit topic that I have in mind.


- Haron Vathek

(sorry for any grammar / speling mistakes, english is not my native language)


Edit1: Fixed some wrong numbers

Agree with your post as long as the end result of balancing doesn't lead to a nerf for the Gallente logis, as a Gallente logi myself I say that we are on a fine thread of being terrible on the battlefield, or OP.

So I've been whining about this off and on for a bit and will continue to do so because I'm that sort of idiot. Anyway...

Proto Amarr medium frame 70 PG base

Proto Amarr logistics 66 PG base, Total module slots 6

Proto Gallente logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 8

Proto Minmatar logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 8

Proto Caldari logistics 78 PG base, Total module slots 9


WTF CCP you give the medium frame suit more PG than the proto logistics, was the design teams thought when doing this screw the Amarr their logis don't get equipment? I mean the frame has more than the logi suit!

You thought that having the PG to equip decent equipment, a light weapon, and a side arm with a whopping 3 highs and 3 lows was going to be OP, but that having a Caldari logi that can stack 5 complex shield extenders (or damage mods), run proto of the kill everythng at every range gun (I.E. Tac AR), run 4 shield regulators, armor reppers, or plates if they wanted to, and have all the PG and CPU in the world is OK?

The Amarr logi suit is already paying for it's sidearm by having less module slots than all the other logi suits by 2.

Please, please, please, increase the PG on the dang suit to near the levels of all the others, I've given up on 78 like all my other logi-bros get, how about we split the difference and go 72?

Maybe then it won't be me and about 5 other stubborn fools who play this game trying to be Amarr and logi

Moved this from where I miss posted it in the General forums, I am sure others have broken it down just as well but I need to throw my analysis in too, even if it is a bit late to the party

Yeah, we're going to be bringing the race bonus down onto the basic suits. It's one of a few adjustments to the dropsuit progression we'll be outlining in the next few days. Some adjustments we'll be making very shortly, but others will be a fair bit later.

Yes, that is the message overall: Don't nerf suits from what they are now, bring other suits up to par. The Amarr needs love. The Minmatar is perfectly balanced. Caldari seems balanced for combat and module variety. Gallente is balanced for module variety and equipment. Amarr is balance for... no it is not, nevermind.

Yes, that is the message overall: Don't nerf suits from what they are now, bring other suits up to par. The Amarr needs love. The Minmatar is perfectly balanced. Caldari seems balanced for combat and module variety. Gallente is balanced for module variety and equipment. Amarr is balance for... no it is not, nevermind.

Yeah, it needs some love, a touch more PG (should at least keep pace with it's racial assault counterpart and 1 more Low Power slot to allow better utility of it's racial skill buffs and we're in business IMO.

Sorry about the radio silence. We're definitely reading as much as we can and anything we miss the community guys quickly point out, so rest assured your concerns do get through to us.

I'm responsible for both weapon and dropsuit balance so I apologize if I haven't responded as quickly as you'd like. We're taking a look at a few of the roles and will address some of the concerns with them in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure to read well-explained posts.

Personally the PG has to be changed its way to low and is I believe a mistake on the devs part.

As for putting low or high slot I don't now I would personally like a low slot but then is it on part with other suits or is it then slightly better.

I don't want the characteristics changed I would like to try using the stupidly fast time to recharge rate on the shields and the very high passive bonuses of the suit for armour to make a Less overall HP suit but balanced with the best 0>full hp suit in the game that would make the suit have its on niche in combat.

For example having 2x shield extenders and 1x Shield recharge in the highs having 1 advanced or complex plate and 2x complex reppers in the lows (combined with level 5 in passives to get stamina and speed 5 percent to offset the armour slowness) would mean around 600 hps but stupidly fast shield regeneration on damage with low downtime on recharge and lowish armour but again the equivelant of a tier 2 repper on you at all times.

Personally people advocating for extra high are looking for damage mods and i dont think thats what the class is about so much, low slot addition would be less powerfull buff but add versatlity.

Maybe a PG upgrade would be best as long as its fairly significant and then have a look at the balance of the class after that.

Personally the PG has to be changed its way to low and is I believe a mistake on the devs part.

As for putting low or high slot I don't now I would personally like a low slot but then is it on part with other suits or is it then slightly better.

I don't want the characteristics changed I would like to try using the stupidly fast time to recharge rate on the shields and the very high passive bonuses of the suit for armour to make a Less overall HP suit but balanced with the best 0>full hp suit in the game that would make the suit have its on niche in combat.

For example having 2x shield extenders and 1x Shield recharge in the highs having 1 advanced or complex plate and 2x complex reppers in the lows (combined with level 5 in passives to get stamina and speed 5 percent to offset the armour slowness) would mean around 600 hps but stupidly fast shield regeneration on damage with low downtime on recharge and lowish armour but again the equivelant of a tier 2 repper on you at all times.

Personally people advocating for extra high are looking for damage mods and i dont think thats what the class is about so much, low slot addition would be less powerfull buff but add versatlity.

Maybe a PG upgrade would be best as long as its fairly significant and then have a look at the balance of the class after that.

First an informational side note, the Amarr line of racial suits is supposed to be armor tanked. Granted that doesn't mean it should possess no ability to use shield mods etc. but the racial balance is mar/gal favor armor and cal/min favor shields (with the note that winmatar do some quirky things and may not hold to a true pattern as clearly).

The main weakness of an active tank is alpha damage, in essence being 1-2 shotted before the rep/recharge can do you any good. 2x contact nades is 800 damage. A militia nade + one TAR round is ~478 damage (assuming no buffs from skills or damage mods and only frontal body shots).

The Gal suit can have a better active armor tank than the Amarr suit (and that's with max armor tanking skills for the Amarr suit). If we're establishing niche roles then of the two armor tankers (Gal / Amarr) one should be better situated for buffer tank and the other for active. With the touch up on PG and the extra Low Power slot the Amarr becomes able to active tank more effectively than the Gal suit while the greater number of Low Power slots on the Gal suit combined with the fittings savings buff allows for better buffer tank. This configuration still maintains the base "you pay more for flexibility" aspect of the Logi suit line in general. Honestly the Amarr suit would even be improved by moving one high slot over to the low for 2 high 4 low since it's a suit specifically created for an active armor tank (as both lore and the onboard suit buffs show us).
Based on internal Logi suit balance however adding a single low slow is superior to just moving one slot.

0.02 ISK
Cross

Yes I use 2 damage mods on my Amarr Proto Logi(APL) - one Light, one Sidearm - so what? The reason I want the extra slot isn't for more damage - I need it for shields which I lack in...

I build a self sufficient suit with which I can support my teammates & hold my own, because if I don't, I'll be spending my time respawning instead of supporting... Plus, my suit(s - I've made a hack focused suit)is of the most versatile NOT, because it has an extra low slot, but because I carry a swarm launcher & can aid in vehicular destruction...

Y'all need to ease off this 'a Logi isn't supposed to have a strong offence - that's not it's function' - the ability to efficiently take out enemies is just as important as being able to take a fair amount of damage regardless of which role you're playing... & if you disagree - just swap your weapon to a standard scrambler pistol with no damage mods, load up lots of armor, get into a game & see how much fun you have dying over & over at your disadvantages(slow & weak = easy target that only 'tickles' enemies - SMH)...

Again, because of the fact that the suit is already the slowest & has a race boost - which allows one to easily go without a low slot yet remain on par with a 4 low slot suit - the APL doesn't need another low slot...

I do not like the idea of using a suit with 225 shields & 569 armor - I prefer 300 or so of each... If you do not understand that either excessive shields & low armor or vice versa has disadvantages against certain weapons, all is lost... But then again - make suits of same, experiment & see, how well you do in battle - & don't forget to ONLY use a standard scrambler pistol with no damage mods, because 'offense' is not a function of Logistics right?

Oh, & only a suit's equipment slot & weapon variety dictates it's versatility...

PS: I would say do it without a weapon period, but we all know you can't...