Or you could just accept that scout suits have less armour as a trade off to better speed and agility. They are also smaller BY DESIGN.
If I design something to be smaller and quicker but as a result it has less armour, where's the imbalance?

And no, not everyone will be a scout. They have horrible CPU/PG and can't really carry anything useful.

Besides hit detection issues the character model of the scout is too small.

Scout suit will be fine once they fix hit detection.

I play scout and I get tore up against people with assault suits that can aim. I wish I would have never put all those SP into scout. Scout is for people who like to run away and use RE. I like to stand and fight.

I Should have skilled into assault.

Three weeks ago it was tanks.
Then it was swarms and forges.
Then it was the proto ARs.
Now it's scouts.

Every week there will be something that seems imbalanced to people. That's ok. That's how the game works.
Something is only overpowered until others find a way to counter it. Then the countering agent is considered overpowered until overthrown.

It's the circle of Perfect Imbalance.

Edit: I'm not saying it's perfect NOW. I just think fixing hit detection will fix this entirely.

Scout suit will be fine once they fix hit detection.

I play scout and I get tore up against people with assault suits that can aim. I wish I would have never put all those SP into scout. Scout is for people who like to run away and use RE. I like to stand and fight.

I Should have skilled into assault.

Not aim. Get lucky. Aiming has nothing to do with it. The rate at which a scout strafe causes on to have to lead by as much as 2 character models to hit. If they cut and strafe the other way they no longer meet the bullet so no hit is registered in most cases there is another person shooting the scout in the side so the strafing does not affect him. I am not the best player when it comes to gun game...that title goes to proto, but I am also not a scrub by any means. Scouts die fast when they aren't moving.

I remember you use to rock the heavy with the HW lol!

I have heard that once hit detection is fixed it will not be an issue. I am not convinced. Moving or a straight line scouts do not receive damage like other suits. Is this part of the game or an area that will be addressed?
The scout is the hardest suit to hit. Everyone can see it is broken. Without RE's to corner scouts with, they will be matrix-like. I have had two friends quit already: saying "scouts are too unbalanced", "hit detection is whack". I went through 120 rounds once with a scout zigzagging 3 meters from me. It is... irritating. Not having them in the game would be an improvement.

.

-Sigh- Heavies and Machine-guns and now Scouts and their Submachine Guns... Can't you people just accept the fact that there is **** in this game designed to kill you?

They even said at Fanfest that if a Scout suit gets close enough to move around you that you're ****** because you won't be able to turn fast enough - that is what they do. They are there to act as hit-and-run specialists. This "character model isn't big enough" bullshit honestly needs to stop right here and now.

Honestly, you people don't know how to adapt to a battlefield. We're about to enter a new build and you ******* -FINALLY- realized that tanks don't go away unless they're killed - so you all went Anti-Vehicle. Now, whenever you're faced with heavy Anti-vehicle on the opposition, you don't know how to go back to Infantry and bring the fight to them. You just spawn in more vehicles and die a lot saying that the Swarm Launcher/Forge Gun is over-powered.

YOU DIE. LEARN THIS ALREADY. ACCEPT IT. ADAPT AND SURVIVE.

Jesus christ - you know, I don't have any issues with this game. I get killed, I look back and learn what I did wrong and evolve on that. I used to run Scout suits frequently and for the past three weeks I've run Logistics - Scouts don't bother me. I aim, I fire, they die. They get too close, I die. That's the nature of this game.

Scouts have had issues with hit detection ever since the build back in december. The character models need to be bigger.

I highly doubt CCP intended for them to be able to DODGE BULLETS.

I'll say it again: The reason you are dying is because they invested in a combat style that is meant to counter yours. Find something to counter theirs. If you think Hit Detection is such a ***** than start using a Mass Driver.

Please. Scouts are the most well balances character models in-game bar none. I'll grant you that the hit detection is not worth much at the moment in-game, but even still the scout is most balanced. I would have said that I could not believe tat this would have come up as an issue, but then again considering how everyone loves to just whine and complain about everything here I am not so surprised as I may have should have been.

Scout is balanced. We have horrid shield, and armor ratings and as pointed our CPU (Central Processing Unit) and PG (Power Grid) output is for crap. Especially compared to -- heavy, logistic, or even assault. We trade all of that off for what? A little advantage in base speed and sprint? Wow. Totally worth complaining about. I'll be looking for you come wednesday. My SMG wants to say hello.

Hit detection is broke with the scout suits its why you can sponge a million bullets and not take damage

Once hit detection is fixed you will drop like flies why you try to bunny hop and fail

You are only surviving and thinking you are doing well because the hit detection is way off with scout suits so damage barely registers

Hit detection is broke with the scout suits its why you can sponge a million bullets and not take damage

Once hit detection is fixed you will drop like flies why you try to bunny hop and fail

You are only surviving and thinking you are doing well because the hit detection is way off with scout suits so damage barely registers

Those people complaining about hit detection ain't lying.

My first realisation was when I fired 4 massdriver shot at a heavy and somehow the heavy just absorbed the shots. No explosion,

no damage nothing. I died

Have a lot of blue flare shots with the sniper after I abandoned the Logistic/mass driver build to test scouts.

I blame the nanohive manufacturers, those little bots are producing duds. Or maybe the atmosphere of ERPG lacks the right minerals for good ammo.

The speed of the scout suit is fine, but the character model and hit box on the scout is too small. Damage doesn't always register against them. Anybody that denies this is clearly abusing the class.

I started a fight put my smg on him with his back to me only for him to whirl around and almost insta kill me to. It's not a perfect game.

If you think hit detection vs scouts is unfair try playing from asia on us or europe servers where your gun shots dont register at all even though the shield is flashing and your cursor is red.

As for the character model well they should be small that's the whole point and they haven't got the cpu or pg to back it up either.

If the assault class can do everything the scout can whats the point of having a scout class?

Did I ever say hit detection vs scouts was unfair? Why would I play on the EU or Asia server when I can play on the US server?

The scout has been broken since december. The character model and hit-box are too small. Some people win their gunfights using the scout not because they can outmaneuver their opponent, but because damage doesn't register because the hit-box is too small.

The only advantage a scout should have against another class is speed not a smaller hit-box.

I started a fight put my smg on him with his back to me only for him to whirl around and almost insta kill me to. It's not a perfect game.

If you think hit detection vs scouts is unfair try playing from asia on us or europe servers where your gun shots dont register at all even though the shield is flashing and your cursor is red.

As for the character model well they should be small that's the whole point and they haven't got the cpu or pg to back it up either.

If the assault class can do everything the scout can whats the point of having a scout class?

I am still genuinely interested however do people think that the assault should be as good as scouts in the open in cqc, despite having a significant ranged advantage?

Wow the scout users are saying it is fine. Do you guys really believe your good? You may be but using the scout is no way to judge this. Your literally immune to hits as long as your moving. We are not making this up. Do you think this is a conspiracy? A group of hundred players jealous that we didn't pick scout suits?
3 meters away...You strafe back and forth and kill me. My suit has 450 hp if I remember correctly. I am using a Duvolle...I think this gun has the third highest DPS in the game. I pull the trigger and let loose all rounds...then go 20 deep into my sidearm. NO HITS.

As persistent as you scouts are maybe I need to put two systems side by side and see what each client sees. Do not get me wrong. I run an assault and notice if I simply strafe a little left and right...bullets connect less. This should not be as I am still in a stream of fire...I hope it is only hit detection and like I have been saying not game design.

We all agree scouts move fast...they are smaller...smaller hitbox...fine. But are you not understanding immune. No bullets connect. You guys go 20-2 ....27-4... Put on another suit and I bet you will be very surprised.

We all agree scouts move fast...they are smaller...smaller hitbox...fine. But are you not understanding immune. No bullets connect. You guys go 20-2 ....27-4... Put on another suit and I bet you will be very surprised.

So I should not speak on broken mechanics? I thought that is why we had the forums? BTW the Duvolle is close to the top 5 fastest shooting weapons. The point is lost on you. It is not the "slow" rate of fire that allows your special suit to live when you dry ******* me. It is the said broken mechanics.

One game I just got through finishing off a Surya and turned around to find a scout sneaking up behind me . I laughed at the little little man whipped out my Boundless SMG and shot him in the face.
I'm a heavy ........and a AV heavy at that yet I'm not seeing that much problem with Scouts .. Sure there are times they catch me completely out in the open and rip me apart but that's life .....and death.....and respawn and try again .

yes a scout running in a linear motion is easy to kill....this thread is about scouts quick strafing at 5 or so meters away, and if he was quick strafing, I am glad you got lucky.

Aw. Someone is angry. Okay kidding aside. Do not blow your top.

No, you can voice your opinion, but I will not take it seriously unless it is calm, civil, and rationally thought out. Calling out the band wagoners, and calling for a salem wicth hunt is not going to justify any thing. I see the point and can see various points, but the general complaint is laughable almost. Scouts are not some invicible, or overpowered dropsuit with deity like abilities. I have offered up the most rational points as to why things are unnaturally tipped at the moment to the scouts favor when in CQC. I even agreed with some of those same points. What I did do is dismiss the most likely to be complaining at it's best. Barking loudly to vex and raise the torches of the people.

People are w-a-y too quick to band wagon, and scream aloud then think. I find it funny that I have little problem killing other scouts or dieing just the same, but others seem to feel we're deities. That too me is just laugh aloud hilarious. It's not out of disrespect, or being judgmental. I just believe if people accurately and rationally looked at their incurssion ratio of wins to losses against a or the scout they would find they are either winning most incurssions, or only slightly lossing. If you can keep us at a minimum four meters distance the assault will usually win especially those who are aware, or at atleast average skill. Even a militia AR will tear through a scout unimpeaded.

My advice to you? Try some of these as they seem to work on me effectively enough --

• Infantry Grenades (Locust)
• Mass Driver
• Scrambler Pistol
• Assualt Rifle
• Shotgun
• Sub Machine Gun

Funny enough I have been sniped by heavies wielding forge guns from over a hundred meters away. That is insane. Point is crap happens, and people by nature fly off the handle. I have in the moment rage, I'll curse, and complain even lay blame to everything, but myself. It's just in the moment rage though. Some people though just do not calm down as quickly though. Does the game have issues? Yeah. Is CCP working to ressolve said issues? I better will hope they are. Is the scout over powered and some deity that is invincible? Nope.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to fetch my monacle.

Funny enough I have been sniped by heavies wielding forge guns from over a hundred meters away. That is insane.

CCP really ****** up by adding aim assist and it doesn't help that we are on these testing servers. The cursor jerks to where the scout was and not where he actually is this makes it so we have to fight it and lead scouts by over a foot even when they are just a few feet away. With better servers to greatly reduce hit detection issues and a REMOVAL OF AIM ASSIST let me repeat a REMOVAL OF AIM ASSIST, (CCP I'm looking at you) the scout suit will play as intended with great straight line speed, stealth, and weak defense and will no longer make the users play like Neo.

Carlos you just need to learn how to aim....Yes that is your problem you are a scrub....who can't aim...

A forge gun fires a slug that travels 7000 m/s, so how is it insane that you got sniped from only a few hundred meters?

Sorry for the off topic response but seriously.

I am not immune and I find proto assault and proto breach rifle very difficult to kill. To get any type of advantage over this variant I have to do the following.

Make sure that I am in optimum CQC reach (I have to plan tactically where I engage.

I have to make sure that the ground will not impede me in any way if I strafe into a wall im dead.

I must be aware of any walls when I can retreat to if I need to regain shields.

Due to me carrying teleports etc. i am usually carrying proto smg due to low levels of cpu and pg compared to assault. This means I have to hit my target first and try to keep my fire on the target than the opposition.

Despite all this against proto gear if the guy anticipates my strafe or due to clever dodging on the opponents behalf going against a proto suit and proto rifle is tough.

If you see me before I close distance im probably dead or will have to disengage.

If my get stuck or another person joins the fight I'm dead.

If you use any type of explosive im probably dead.

Being a scout is not an I win button for CQC even in its present state. You have to think and react tactically to get in optimum range especially if you run with an SMG due to using teleporters etc.

The reason often that the scout has the drop on you is he's

1) seen you on the radar due to being spotted or your firing etc

2) they then close on you from a distance trying to use cover to get in close

3) they then attack at an opportune moment when your on your own

I don't see it far then after all that information and planning that the assault has equal chance at CQC as this will make the assault suit overpowered,

As for being better at distance with a sniper rifle I don't see an advantage in being a scout with a rifle over assault to be honest one can argue that the extra shields and armour and pg and cpu would make a superior sniper.

This is a game which is supposed to be tactical. The scouts (with exception of any hit detection bugs) are well balanced and very squishy,

At the end of the day the scout is supposed to be a lone wolf they should have the advantage in one on one situations by their very nature. Good tactics (spacing using shotguns/mass drivers etc) or staying with a buddy etc are a counter to scouts or other suggestions that I gave before in my other long post.

I hope that is sarcasm or else you just painted a big target on you back.

I have died from forge guns as well, 250 splash dmg will do that...the issue with scout suits is the strafing up close....the only thing that kills that is splash dmg....no one is saying scout suits cannot be killed, it is unlikely when they are strafing up close to get a hit on them. What you are suggesting is that everyone needs to keep scouts (the fastest suit) at a safe distance by being "aware" in a game that only pings people who are seen? The point is there should not be an "unhittable" zone for a scout as long as he strafes back and forth.

just using you as an example...you and proto have both posted on this forum yet these people somehow think that the people with the scout problem just can't aim....

Scout suit will be fine once they fix hit detection.

I play scout and I get tore up against people with assault suits that can aim. I wish I would have never put all those SP into scout. Scout is for people who like to run away and use RE. I like to stand and fight.

I Should have skilled into assault.

Okay, so lets talk about some of your logic...you can only carry an SMG, designed for CQC, and happens to have higher DPS then its AR brothers, and somehow you see a problem? Scouts should NOT be 1v1 kings....I am not talking about getting snuck up on by a scout I am saying full bore 1v1 sometimes when I start it by shooting at them, then they turn and strafe into god mode...not all scouts know how to twitch strafe.

The idea that I need to have another assault friend with me to cover my butt doesn't work either...the scout is faster then us so he decides the angle of the fight and as long as we don't get perpendicular to him we are unlikely to hit him.

Lol yeah its pretty absurd, people always assume QQ when actually some are trying to improve gameplay.

You and doc should hit me up and do some Q-syncing with STB on our vent server, get a chance to play my me GoD-Nova, Youngcuz, cpt_krucial, Tednuget, Lurachaurus, and a few others who are active in the beta. When the grouping system kicks in STB will be an unstoppable force.

I full skilled into assault and was thinking I shoulda skilled heavy. I have max skilled shields and to me armor is better then shields, doesn't drop as quick. At least from my perspective. I'm thinking of going logi suit next build.

On topic though, I think scout suits are will be fine once hit detection is corrected.

If somone sees me first and is shooting me as you said im usually dead the scout must have very high shield extenders to stay alive as the assault rifles especally proto cuts me to shreds. Even small sustained fire from assault rifles diminishes the shields rapidly. I have tried doing what you said that scout done and even trying to turn and jump in the air im usually dead before i hit the ground.

As for your two vs one well its just not that easy to kill one person with an smg never mind two even if your right beside behind each other.

Your not sitting still, im not sitting sitting still and your pal is not sitting still. The smg really is meant for 1 on 1 due to the fact its so dam hard keeping your gun on someone during all that movement and the shots are not hitting nearly as hard. It's almost impossible to use that dps because the of target acquisition. I have faced two guys with protos and proto breaches and I had next to no chance as im getting hit by two lanes of fire.

The only time I can fight more than one on one is if they other guys are new people and not aggressive allowing me to recharge and reload.

Remember also that my spec is CQC for the most part by design yet with an assault rife your wanting equal ground in cqc superior mid range and superior long range how is that fair?

If your one due has an smg or shotgun or massdriver and the other guy has an assault rifle then this will make it very difficult for the scout to kill you as you have speced to cover short range and medium and long range.

People seem to want the assault to be able to chose proto suit proto breach assault and dominate at all ranges?

I have God Nova on my PSN as a friend, Doc and I are a tad oldschool, we don't do comp coms, we have actually taken to do just ambush because there is only one game happening so we always play together...but when groups happen you can bet a scouts @ss in spandex we will jump on that.

Yeah most of us use both in-game comms and use vent to Q-sync, The beauty of vent is that it is available for PC, Mac, linux, iPhone, iPad, and android.

Nothing stops you from using Proto ARs, all i am saying is that SMGs are better than ARs, I only do sidearms, that is it, I have a loadout with just pistols and I do just fine, the only time there is an issue is with scout suits dancing about. Scouts are not meant to be Directs combat, but this "glitch" allows them to do so.
Oh and for your info jumping is bad for scouts...you can't twitch strafe in the air...you have one trajectory and it becomes possible to lead you, which means you die. I will repeat my first statement...SMGs are better than ARs

But like others have said, a scout should not feel confident when going into a gun fight. I have played as a heavy and have had scouts stand and fight me straight up while I am wielding a HMG and they have an AR.

>>Implying I should engage your heavy at Mid-Range rather than Close while maneuvering around you to take advantage of slow turn speed.
Edit: I use Boundless Breach SMG, not AR

Also, Ambush Scouts need that fearlessness in order to cause chaos/panic/confusion. I've played plenty of matches where I've thrown a grenade into the surrounding area of an objective, run up a hill, and long jumped into the area where I then proceed to run around gaining bearings of where enemies are located and using the environment to flank them or catch the advantage. Without the fearlessness we wouldnt be able to cause that confusion/chaos to take advantage of, especially when engaging multiple targets.

Obviously moving around me at a close distance is your best bet, my implication was that I thought even though this is the best tactic for a scout up close to a heavy, i would have thought it be more of a last resort rather than a full on charge at the heavy...

I have heard that once hit detection is fixed it will not be an issue. I am not convinced. Moving or a straight line scouts do not receive damage like other suits. Is this part of the game or an area that will be addressed?
The scout is the hardest suit to hit. Everyone can see it is broken. Without RE's to corner scouts with, they will be matrix-like. I have had two friends quit already: saying "scouts are too unbalanced", "hit detection is whack". I went through 120 rounds once with a scout zigzagging 3 meters from me. It is... irritating. Not having them in the game would be an improvement.

Hello Doc, how have you been? I played with you in MAG, and I know you are a good player, so don't think that I am undermining your opinion or anything, but I do disagree with you. I'll explain...

I play as a scout, and have little to no difficulty killing other scouts. In fact, I'm happy when I meet a scout on the battlefield because it means I am about 90% likely to get a kill. Seriously, I rarely ever get killed by other scouts. You could make the argument "Well, you move fast like a scout, so that's why you can kill them", but that doesn't explain why they can't kill me.

When I meet Assault suits, it's more of an issue. Not just because they all ***** the Creodon Breach nowadays, but because they move decently fast while strafing back and forth PLUS they have way, way more health. Too much health for me to fire through with consistent, accurate hits while we both strafe back and forth as I try to hit them and avoid their AR (which does more damage up close than my SMG does).

When it comes to Heavy armor users, If I meet them one on one, I lose about 75% of the time. The only time I can ever beat them is if I run away and lure them into reinforcements, find them with their back turned (even then they often manage to turn around and take me out because of how weak the SMG is against Heavies and their weapons), or find them engaged with another enemy and unable to fire at me.

Right now, this game isn't about skill, it's about experience and how "leveled" your character is, so for a scout, it's REALLY hard to beat someone if they are on the same level and have shield/armor extenders. So maybe that will help you. The success of a scout really relies on your failure at aiming, not so much their talent with gun game - not at this point in the beta anyway. Nothing is more frustrating than hitting an enemy with 80 bullets to the back and not getting a kill, then having them turn around and hit you 4 times with a creo and shuffling off like they have so much talent.

Has anyone actually tried specing as a scout killer i.e. massdriver, shotgun, or smg spec with speed boosters in assault?

Or is everyone saying that na I can spec generally and should still have the same chance (human talents not withstanding) as someone who has specialized in something?

Hint: counter is heavy using an HMG, more effective if his back is against the wall

I wrecked you two nights ago... easy mode

BTW your not a good scout

I have heard that once hit detection is fixed it will not be an issue. I am not convinced. Moving or a straight line scouts do not receive damage like other suits. Is this part of the game or an area that will be addressed?
The scout is the hardest suit to hit. Everyone can see it is broken. Without RE's to corner scouts with, they will be matrix-like. I have had two friends quit already: saying "scouts are too unbalanced", "hit detection is whack". I went through 120 rounds once with a scout zigzagging 3 meters from me. It is... irritating. Not having them in the game would be an improvement.

Wow, you're so cool. Everyone wants to hang out with you now, lol.

I wouldn't doubt you wrecked me. I accidentally bought a bunch of tier 2 scout suits and wanted to burn through them. Not like it even matters since this is the last weekend of this beta phase. If I was an awful player I wouldn't have a 2.53 KDR.

I think I might remember you - you run the assault suit and... not the creo or the duvolle but a different AR right? I'm pretty damn sure you have at least 2 shield extenders because I remember emptying clips into your ass and getting no where. Anyway, as I said, Assault suits are harder to take down given their speed and typical damage output, so the fact that you even said anything about besting me in a beta that I wasn't even trying in just shows how desperate you are for approval.

Why don't you and I meet up again in the final game and see what happens? BOTH in the same suit with the same weapon and modules?

I'd just like to point out smgs do not do more paper dps, although they are likely doing more applied dps at cqc. Seriously, some people need to spend more time with spreadsheets before declaring opinion fact.

Noc you are bad at math. Sorry, so here goes, the numbers will be a bit off since I am doing this from memory, we will compare the oooooo so deadly creon AR and the Assault SMG, Both are proto and both assume max skills and a 10% dmg buff.

Creon 57.6 base dmg with a 401 ROF
SMG 24 base dmg with 1050 ROF

So what we must do is make the ROF per second, so we devide by 60 which gets us....

6.68 bullets/sec for the CREON
17.5 Bullets/sec for SMG

now for the DMG...so an SMG lvled up with a 10% dmg mod is +50% dmg (15%for wpnry and 25% from SMG ops) 36dmg/bullet
The CREON with a 10% booster +40% (15% from wpn and 15% from asslt prof) 80.64dmg/ bullet......
NOW THE MATH
6.68*80.64=538.67 DPS for the creon! which will kill a decent assault suit hurray!
17.5*36=630 DPS for the SMG....umm wait...last time I checked 630>539(I rounded up to be nice)

So the SMGs do more paper DPS...I mean in your world they don't, and also in your world the scout suit is fine and dandy...
By the way the assault scrambler pistol does 1050 DPS....

but a duvolle with the same 40% damage buff is 630. so...

plus i think you're SLIGHTLY overestimating the smg RoF, and under estimating the creodrons.

i think the ishukune assault is either 1024 or 1048? but i know it's not a nice round number like 1050

same with the creodron, i think it ends in a decimal. so it's prolly something stupid like 401.1. even so, most prototype weapons out dps a creodron. on paper

Besides hit detection issues the character model of the scout is too small.

There is absolutely no reason to think that the visual model of the suit is too small. It is a scout suit. It is meant to be small because it lacks armor and equipment.

As for hit detection, I really do not see a problem with it. I am a scout and I have had several occasions where I was shot down easily even when zig zagging. It is just a case of being good with a gun. If there is a hit detection problem, then either I really suck at running away from a gun fight or the conditions for the hit detections just havent happen yet.

I must not be good with a gun to consistently drop 40+ kills per game regardless of attack/defense

The scout suit has been broken since december the hit box needs to be larger damage doesn't always consistently register against the scout suit like it does against any other suit.

Protoman fails at math. The numbers have been thoroughly crunched already. Here is SoCal's AR and SMG table.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8yOSDZD3MfKNXlSX0dxVHJ1TE0/edit
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8yOSDZD3MfKWm8tejRvVVhmMmM/edit

Note that his minimum DPS may not account for the minimum skills required to wield the weapon, which would skew comparisons of the prototype weapons.

I must not be good with a gun to consistently drop 40+ kills per game regardless of attack/defense

The scout suit has been broken since december the hit box needs to be larger damage doesn't always consistently register against the scout suit like it does against any other suit.

Here is SoCal's AR and SMG table.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8yOSDZD3MfKNXlSX0dxVHJ1TE0/edit
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8yOSDZD3MfKWm8tejRvVVhmMmM/edit

Note that his minimum DPS may not account for the minimum skills required to wield the weapon, which would skew comparisons of the prototype weapons.

With Weaponry 5 (15% boost) and SMG Operation 5 (25% SMG boost) and AR Proficiency 5 (15% AR Boost)

DPS: Duvolle AR > Ishukone Assault SMG > Boundless Breach SMG > Creodron Breach AR

Duvolle AR: 36 damage, 750 RPM, 30% damage increase, DPS = 585
Ishukone Assault SMG: 24 damage, 1000 RPM, 40% damage increase, DPS = 560
Boundless Breach SMG: 40.8, 534.8 RPM, 40% damage increase, DPS = 509
Creodron Breach AR: 57.6 damage, 401.1 RPM, 30% damage increase, DPS = 501

Those are the actual DPS with max damage increasing skills and NO damage mods.

Effective range goes as follows
Creodron Breach AR > Duvolle AR > Boundless Breach SMG > Ishukone Assault SMG

Umm well, I hate to say it, but his table is wrong.

I don't know what formula he used for DPS, but you really need to check the math on your source...I could say a lot of things to compliment your blind faith here, but I will try and stay civil Just because someone makes up a table doesn't make it right.

INFO FROM HIS TABLE!
Duvolle AR ROF 750 RPM (that means rounds per minute...to make it rounds per second you must divide by 60.) which equals 12.5...then we multiply that by the damage....we multiply because we want to consider each bullet hitting the target in that second.
12.5*46.8(the listed dmg/bullet) =585 DPS!! wait....that doesn't match the bible....err table he has it as 398.3

I would love to go through and mock all errors but I will quickly do the data for SMG the Ish assault

1052.6/60=17.54*33.6=589 DPS ......It is only a difference of 4 dmg per second, and the breach SMG and CREON are just as close with the breach SMG barely ahead...it is a good chart for the raw data, but sadly he is not, was not, good at math.

But there is your proof that on paper the SMG is "better" at CQC

I have an easy fix that I use:
Use a Mass Driver. No matter how fast you zig-zag, you will not escape the splash damage.
I seriously do not know why I do not see the Mass Driver more.

Umm well, I hate to say it, but his table is wrong.

I don't know what formula he used for DPS, but you really need to check the math on your source...I could say a lot of things to compliment your blind faith here, but I will try and stay civil Just because someone makes up a table doesn't make it right.

INFO FROM HIS TABLE!
Duvolle AR ROF 750 RPM (that means rounds per minute...to make it rounds per second you must divide by 60.) which equals 12.5...then we multiply that by the damage....we multiply because we want to consider each bullet hitting the target in that second.
12.5*46.8(the listed dmg/bullet) =585 DPS!! wait....that doesn't match the bible....err table he has it as 398.3

I would love to go through and mock all errors but I will quickly do the data for SMG the Ish assault

1052.6/60=17.54*33.6=589 DPS ......It is only a difference of 4 dmg per second, and the breach SMG and CREON are just as close with the breach SMG barely ahead...it is a good chart for the raw data, but sadly he is not, was not, good at math.

But there is your proof that on paper the SMG is "better" at CQC

Just so we are clear, am I correct in my assumption that the issue we are discussing is that it appears when a scout suit moves in a specific way ("zig zag" "twitch straffe" ect.) that somehow the game is not registering damage on the scout suit...? We believe this is the case because we can see that our reticle/cross hair is on the player an as we are firing but we can also see the damage displayed not lowering (the bars over the player that display their armor and shield).

Can I further assume that most of us are not complaining that the scout is "too small" or "too fast" ...rather as previously stated, that the game appears to not be registering hits accurately.


Furthermore, a separate concern is, is CCP knowingly and intentionally creating the game with the scout not registering damage in the above mentioned ways because that is their vision for the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2004nrHxa0&feature=related

Proto scouts currently can dodge this and I am hoping it is not game design. Strafe all you want but you will be hit.

Sorry fellow Dusters this has gotten a little winded. Stryker sums it up correctly.

Players using scout suits: I am not calling for a nerf. Put your bat away. Most of us agree. There is lag. There are hit detection issues. There is something funky with aim assist pulling our crosshairs (?something amiss) My experience with scout suits is the same as most of yours. I have drilled one as it ran from me and 60 bullets all missed. Fine. I have bad aim or they have a small hit box and I was off.

****This thread was meant to ask DEV's if the CQ "twitch strafe" is intentional. It also was to see how rampant this practice is. Just because you killed a scout does not mean he was "twitch strafing". Just because you died when you were a scout does not mean you were twitch strafing. Just because you died while a scout while twitch strafing does not negate the experiences many of us are having. Maybe you got hit from the side and one bullet from your "dance" partner finished you off. Maybe the game actually worked as it appeared and you did take damage. Please humbly...many of these players speaking about this "scout glitch" have over 30 million SP. We have been around the block. I had 32 million. Some of us had proto scouts and experienced this from both sides of the coin. We are speaking from a lot of gaming hours. Remember I had a mountain climbing accident and can not walk still. I am laid up on a couch 23 hours of the day. Dust takes many of those hours. I am just reporting what appears to be a broken mechanic. If I led you to believe anything else I am sorry. Play a match with me and I believe you will see I am pretty level headed and excited to see Dust 514 succeed.

With Weaponry 5 (15% boost) and SMG Operation 5 (25% SMG boost) and AR Proficiency 5 (15% AR Boost)

DPS: Duvolle AR > Ishukone Assault SMG > Boundless Breach SMG > Creodron Breach AR

Duvolle AR: 36 damage, 750 RPM, 30% damage increase, DPS = 585
Ishukone Assault SMG: 24 damage, 1000 RPM, 40% damage increase, DPS = 560
Boundless Breach SMG: 40.8, 534.8 RPM, 40% damage increase, DPS = 509
Creodron Breach AR: 57.6 damage, 401.1 RPM, 30% damage increase, DPS = 501

Those are the actual DPS with max damage increasing skills and NO damage mods.

Effective range goes as follows
Creodron Breach AR > Duvolle AR > Boundless Breach SMG > Ishukone Assault SMG

Carlos I like you, but you are incorrect, Stryker already corrected you, but was unsure, so here goes. The ROF for the assault SMG is 1052.6, that is why it is the assault varient, higher ROF and increased range. It also has more effective range then the Boundless SMG, how do I know that? Because that is what the description says. It costs more CPU and PG then the other SMGs. I just want to get the facts out there and not opinions or speculation.

Three weeks ago it was tanks.
Then it was swarms and forges.
Then it was the proto ARs.
Now it's scouts.

Every week there will be something that seems imbalanced to people. That's ok. That's how the game works.
Something is only overpowered until others find a way to counter it. Then the countering agent is considered overpowered until overthrown.

It's the circle of Perfect Imbalance.

Edit: I'm not saying it's perfect NOW. I just think fixing hit detection will fix this entirely.

Well said. :)

Well said. :)

except that he only proves our point.....swarms and forges were nerfed because they were not balanced, tanks are going to cost more for balance purposes, ARs....never heard anything about that because they are suppose to be the generic man killer, and I am not sure who, if anyone was saying they were not balanced....so all the issues with the exception of ARs because there was no issue have been fixed or tweeked
And not saying nerf the scout, saying look into the twitch strafe and see why scouts appear unhittable while engaged in this action.

I think ARs are broken, but hey, I don't climb to the hills a scream out NERFGäó. I adapt. There is no need to NERFGäó when you can adapt.
It's the best part of playing a game that offers no set class. You gain the ability to experiment. Hell, I do it in MTG. I'm not the BEST player, but I'm getting a fair share of points for it.
Besides, if your not experimenting, how are you going to get better? Even if your main build is ARtard, you can learn how people move and adjust by honestly stepping in their shoes. I do it. Though I hate the heavy suit, it pays off to know just how long I can last in one, so I can counter it later.


Chameleonic adaption: changing to your environment to blend, which does not change what you are to begin with, but allows you to better adapt to your environment.

ARs should be the best overall (infantry) weapon because of their versatility.

Creo will do roughly 80.64 per bullet....a proto sniper is more than 200....most sniper are actually doing about 300....my proto assault carries about 600 total HP...that is two shots, once I am hit I normally have to sit in cover for 10 seconds while I heal...more likely then not the sniper has called me out and I have a dance before I heal, just because people are good at aiming doesn't make something not balanced, there is a difference between QQ and looking at the facts, the OP of this thread was actually asking the DEVs if the scouts ability to seemigly not take dmg while performing a twitch strafe was intentional or if it is an issue that will be fixed with better hit detection, lag etc.

Really? Are you so sure? The Scout suit's base movement speed: 5.6 meters/sec. Sprint Speed: 7.8 meters/sec.

Compared to the Assault suit's with 5 meters/sec and 7 meters/sec. This is called Speed Tanking - they fit Kinetic Catalyzers so they can sprint -faster- and invest all of the skill points you would invest in shields/armor skills into their Endurance/Mobility/Vigor. They are doing exactly what they were designed for - you're just dying because you can't grasp that it's not just an HP Bar and point-shoot style gaming.

Armor. Shield. Speed. Electronic Warfare. The four main types of combat in Eve Online. If you go Speed, you can control combat range. When you control combat range - no matter how dangerous or powerful the opposition is they are at your mercy.

They're powered by servo-motors, their suit is a mechanized war machine that allows them to move faster. This is science fiction - not modern combat.

I'll say it again: The reason you are dying is because they invested in a combat style that is meant to counter yours. Find something to counter theirs. If you think Hit Detection is such a ***** than start using a Mass Driver.

Scout suit will be fine once they fix hit detection.

I play scout and I get tore up against people with assault suits that can aim. I wish I would have never put all those SP into scout. Scout is for people who like to run away and use RE. I like to stand and fight.

I Should have skilled into assault.

Best arguments yet!!!

In Eve, speed tanking is called a nano ship and it works with the same principle, give up armor for speed. The answer to that problem is varied but the results are the same. Tackler with webs and scram and the other ships blow it up. Or use smart bombs which is a real scary suprise just before your ship blows up with your pod right behind it.

And if none of this works and they do increase size of scouts then RankRancid has the solution:

All for this as long as when they increase the size, all characters get increases. So increase hit box by 1.5 increase assault and heavy by 1.5.

Don't make it easier to hit me without making it easier for me to hit you.

That would just be stupid.

This Thread is a joke scouts are fine its hit detection that needs to be fixd. i've been a scout since i got in this beta an i almost regreat it sometimes just cause scouts die so easily its almost sad. An now u guys say nerf them cause u cant hit them when they get close lol. I've gone up against alot of scouts an do notice its really hard to hit them but once u land a few shots there pretty much dead. The only problem i have is the hit detection is just so bad. Try usin a pistol or single shot gun an u really notice the terrible hit detection u have to lead shots so much. There is no wonder why scouts are so hard to hit when they strafe cause u cant aim at were the scout is but were he is going to be an when there moving that fast its really hard. But once hit detection is fixd ur probably not going to need to lead ur shots so much making it easier to hit them cause u dont have to guess as much. So really people need to stop bitching bout scouts an just wait until hit detection is fixd then if there still a problem u can *****

This Thread is a joke scouts are fine its hit detection that needs to be fixd. i've been a scout since i got in this beta an i almost regreat it sometimes just cause scouts die so easily its almost sad. An now u guys say nerf them cause u cant hit them when they get close lol. I've gone up against alot of scouts an do notice its really hard to hit them but once u land a few shots there pretty much dead. The only problem i have is the hit detection is just so bad. Try usin a pistol or single shot gun an u really notice the terrible hit detection u have to lead shots so much. There is no wonder why scouts are so hard to hit when they strafe cause u cant aim at were the scout is but were he is going to be an when there moving that fast its really hard. But once hit detection is fixd ur probably not going to need to lead ur shots so much making it easier to hit them cause u dont have to guess as much. So really people need to stop bitching bout scouts an just wait until hit detection is fixd then if there still a problem u can *****

I am sure you just read the OP, or just the title of the thread....it isn't about having to lead..if a scout strafes in a single direction there is no problem leading and killing them....
The issue ONLY...and this isn't sinking in...ONLY happens when scouts twitch strafe which looks like this...
>>>>>>
<<<<<<
>>>>>>

When you lead them..they actually never meet the bullets because they cut back...something about this action makes them unhittable, and we are talking with guns like the HMG, or assault SMG, this isn't a call to NERF, this is a call to see if this occurance is meant to happen or if it is due to Lag, hit detection...

You did read my previous post, correct...?

In case you missed it:
We are all on the same page here, right? ...that we are not arguing scouts are too fast/have too much speed/are too small/need to a nerf......rather we are simply pointing out that at certain times, when fighting a scout, our cross hair dot turns red and we appear to be hitting the scout but no damage is registering.

(Not trying to beat a dead horse I swear)

Point #1 - "I accidentally bought a bunch of tier 2 scout suits and I wanted to burn through them"

You realize this counts towards your overall assets, which I'm sure, they will eventually play a part in the actual game. Don't get in to a habit of doing this.

Point #2 - "If I was an awful player I wouldn't have a 2.53 KDR"

I use Remotes and have a great KDR. Does that make me a good player? No, It means I use my tools effectively. KDR doesn't make you "Great". It makes you valuable.

Point # 3 - "AR AR AR AR AR shield empty clip AR AR AR"

You're still using an AR. You want to test your skill? Use an SMG. Best someone with that and you'll be a better player.

The speed of the scout suit is fine, but the character model and hit box on the scout is too small. Damage doesn't always register against them. Anybody that denies this is clearly abusing the class.