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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9356
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Posted - 2017.05.31 07:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Our role in this episode of Theory Workshop, we will be exploring an expansion of a concept present by the developers of CCPGÇÖs Project Nova. Specifically, we will be discussing dropsuit progression and unlocking gear. Please bear in mind that this is simply an expansion of an idea that was presented by the developer and should be considered a starting point for a discussion and not a finalized concept.
http://biomassed.net/2017/05/31/theory-workshop-project-nova-dropsuit-progression/
Please discuss and provide feedback!
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Nomex Gallatin
Direct Action Resources
Rise Of Legion.
194
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Posted - 2017.05.31 12:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
That really helps to clear up and mollifies my top concerns about dropsuit progress.
Thanks Pokey!
GǣGǪ shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.Gǥ - General Heinz Gaedke
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DUST Fiend
19254
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Posted - 2017.05.31 12:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9359
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Posted - 2017.05.31 13:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.
Just going off of the terms Rattati used for that one.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28079
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Posted - 2017.05.31 13:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol.
where does it not exist, in your mind?
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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DUST Fiend
19254
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Posted - 2017.05.31 13:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol. where does it not exist, in your mind?
A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die.
Also
Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA 
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
3246
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Posted - 2017.05.31 14:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
I like it in terms of accessibility, I hate it because character development is on rails.
One great thing about MMOs, Eve and Dust in particular, is that sense of agency that comes from making tough, interesting & exciting decisions while growing your character.
Rattati's comment about the pain-in-the-assedness of the earn sp-buy skillbook-use skillbook-spend so-etc. was right on the money and that part of the progression system really needed to go.
As presented, Nova is being streamlined, which is good, but at the cost of player volition. There are far fewer opportunities to make stupid mistakes in Nova, and far fewer opportunities to make smart/wise decisions in Nova. Is there even any kind of long game anymore in regards to player development? I suppose it comes down to what order we choose to work through the unlocks.
Mentally taxing it is not.
Spending merc fortune like water keeping these clone tumors under control....
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9361
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Posted - 2017.05.31 14:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
You're correct that it's more on the rails than what we are used to, and more aptly put, less room to make mistakes.
I think in some sense, allowing new players to make lots of mistakes is kind of counterproductive. I know we love to put our Dust Hipster Hats on and talk about how it needs to be ultra hardcore because we went through that and that's how it should be.
But to someone who is new, particularly a broad audience, punishing people for making long term choices that they have no means of actually understanding isn't good game design. Like we joke about it now, but I've talked to new players who spent a ton of SP on Dropsuit Operation IV and V because they were under the impression that it would unlock new suits.
Now obviously that skill had issues, but that player felt absolutely ****** because he had made a long term irreversible mistake at a time when that SP could have really been spent on something he needed early on. Was it his fault that he didn't read every item description and guide to realize he was wasting his SP? Sure, but is it really reasonable to demand that players be extremely well versed in a game they just started playing? Absolutely not.
Now the direction I see the dev team pushing is more so "There is less room to make mistakes in the long term skill training stage...however we are trying to give players as many short term choices (such as fitting) as possible, which means plenty of room for mistakes. The difference being is that a stupid fit screws you for one battle, a stupid choice leveling a skill to V could screw you for weeks. Choice should matter, but the act of realizing you screwed up and trying to figure out how to fix it next time is fun...grinding sp to fix a bad skill choice, not so much.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DiablosMajora
462
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Posted - 2017.05.31 15:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
The progression is all well and good, but I have a couple of questions/concerns.
How big will the power/bonus be between each tier of dropsuits?
Are there mechanics in place to prevent or discourage protostomping like we had before in Dust, be they monetary rewards or lack thereof?
Prepare your angus
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DUST Fiend
19254
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Posted - 2017.05.31 15:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
But to someone who is new, particularly a broad audience, punishing people for making long term choices that they have no means of actually understanding isn't good game design.
Free Respec
*forum explodes* Ahh, those were the good ol' days.
Seriously though. Same exact system, but respec as you please, perhaps with an ISK cost at most. Your SP is yours to do with as you please.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9361
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Posted - 2017.05.31 15:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:The progression is all well and good, but I have a couple of questions/concerns.
How big will the power/bonus be between each tier of dropsuits?
Are there mechanics in place to prevent or discourage protostomping like we had before in Dust, be they monetary rewards or lack thereof?
Well, players unlock the bonuses to the modules fairly early, that's probably the biggest jump in power/survivability.
Bonuses are of course the next big jump. However you basically had these in DUST anyways (core skills and role bonuses).
However all modules are the same tier, and any variants you unlock are side grades. So I'm terms of actual fitting, there is zero disparity in power between vet and noob, only the ability for more variety.
I'm short, you can have an advantage over a new player if your dropsuit is upgraded, but any protostomping effect will be largely diminished.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1273
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Posted - 2017.05.31 15:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
The alternative to changing the SP system or laughing at the newbro with Dropsuit Operation 5 would be to just remove dead/no effect upgrades.
I.e. can only upgrade to 3 for Dropsuit operation, and no unlock at 1, 3 & 5.
Interesting point about respecs though, in the old system I would think it was quite the money spinner, but I guess we don't know what monetization model Nova will follow.
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28080
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol. where does it not exist, in your mind? A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die. Also Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone. "The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."
Found here, though not an official source. Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic.
Civilian can also stand for "used for civilian work" such as civil engineering. Hazmat suits and zero-g maintenance work could theoretically be jobs that are "now" done by specialists, retired mercs etc.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2789
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:You're correct that it's more on the rails than what we are used to, and more aptly put, less room to make mistakes.
I think in some sense, allowing new players to make lots of mistakes is kind of counterproductive. I know we love to put our Dust Hipster Hats on and talk about how it needs to be ultra hardcore because we went through that and that's how it should be.
But to someone who is new, particularly a broad audience, punishing people for making long term choices that they have no means of actually understanding isn't good game design. Like we joke about it now, but I've talked to new players who spent a ton of SP on Dropsuit Operation IV and V because they were under the impression that it would unlock new suits.
Now obviously that skill had issues, but that player felt absolutely ****** because he had made a long term irreversible mistake at a time when that SP could have really been spent on something he needed early on. Was it his fault that he didn't read every item description and guide to realize he was wasting his SP? Sure, but is it really reasonable to demand that players be extremely well versed in a game they just started playing? Absolutely not.
Now the direction I see the dev team pushing is more so "There is less room to make mistakes in the long term skill training stage...however we are trying to give players as many short term choices (such as fitting) as possible, which means plenty of room for mistakes. The difference being is that a stupid fit screws you for one battle, a stupid choice leveling a skill to V could screw you for weeks. Choice should matter, but the act of realizing you screwed up and trying to figure out how to fix it next time is fun...grinding sp to fix a bad skill choice, not so much.
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I didn't know anyone (that I'm aware of) who would spend SP on useless skills. It was the other way around.
SP was hard to get and you needed lots of it thus making you think : what do I spend it on.
Honestly, if someone can't add 1 to 1 and read 10 words, he deserves to be punished
Just don't give people the feeling of : my mistakes don't matter, is all I'm asking for. As it will create a whiny playerbase.
Now more to the point. All of this looks very simplistic.
Unlock system - I hope it won't require from you too many hours to get tech II
Choose few mods, choose a bonus = your fit is good to go. You can't go more basic any further than this  so it should do
The thing I'm most curious about is Ewar as it was one of my favourtie parts of the game.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9362
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Luckily I have a degree in Civil Engineering. I am qualified to use a civilian suit.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DUST Fiend
19254
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol. where does it not exist, in your mind? A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die. Also Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone. "The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."
Found here, though not an official source. Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic. Civilian can also stand for "used for civilian work" such as civil engineering. Hazmat suits and zero-g maintenance work could theoretically be jobs that are "now" done by specialists, retired mercs etc.
Fair enough, but why would mercs be using such low end equipment for combat purposes? I know the burden of past decisions really isn't on you but all mercs were given warbarges, yet are running around in the Janitors Iron Man cosplay? I'm curious if there will be any lore in New Eden reflecting what happened to DUST.
I know there are far bigger fish to fry lol, just me resisting change o7
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28080
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol. where does it not exist, in your mind? A civilian is a regular person living out their lives. A merc is a genetically modified / engineered warrior of death. If you put a civilian in a dropsuit I'm pretty sure they would die. Also Hi :) Don't mind my general bitterness, it's a flaw in my DNA I'm trying to look up some of the old lore and stuff on this but can't seem to find it, I just could have sworn that Mercs had some serious modifications going on and were much less human than clone. "The first generation of 'dropsuits' where at best crude adoptions of already existing gear given to the most elite of Special Forces. With the knowledge that the clones lives are so disposable, the technology began to take a turn towards the idea of using methods that would kill or severely shorten any mortal soldiers lifespan significantly. Radiation of shields and the portable reactors which would normally burn most regular humans and cancer ridden them for the remainder of lives was of no concern to the immortal soldiers."
Found here, though not an official source. Also yes, I realize that I'm splitting hairs here lol. I was being pedantic. Civilian can also stand for "used for civilian work" such as civil engineering. Hazmat suits and zero-g maintenance work could theoretically be jobs that are "now" done by specialists, retired mercs etc. Fair enough, but why would mercs be using such low end equipment for combat purposes? I know the burden of past decisions really isn't on you but all mercs were given warbarges, yet are running around in the Janitors Iron Man cosplay? I'm curious if there will be any lore in New Eden reflecting what happened to DUST. I know there are far bigger fish to fry lol, just me resisting change o7
who knows what happened in between...
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17202
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Posted - 2017.05.31 16:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
I will share further thoughts later as I am still reading through and processing, but I just wanted to say that I can't imagine anyone reading through that and thinking that Nova will still come out like CoD.
Overall I am really liking it, but I will come by later with more specific thoughts.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9363
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Posted - 2017.05.31 17:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
To be fair Dust Fiend, isn't the Forge Gun a modified mining tool? And Minmatar suits have equipment integrated that was originally for heavy industrial lifting. Combat gear originating from humble roots isn't exactly a new concept.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Lightning35 Delta514
Federation Marines 62
5328
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Posted - 2017.05.31 17:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol. where does it not exist, in your mind?
As Fiend said after, civilians are meh in merc suits.
How about-
Merc (paid soldier) - replaces militia gear (tier 1)
Militia (somewhat official military) - replaces basic gear (tier 2)
Recruit/ low class enlistee (official military) - replaces advanced gear (tier 3)
Chiefs /High class enlistee (official military) - replaces proto gear (tier 4)
Officer (official military) - officer stuff (tier 5)
You had mentioned now fighting for factions which would work.
As you continue to fight for each faction, you work up your way in their military systems starting as a merc and later become an officer
CEO of Federation Marines 62 - Bravo Company
Gallente - Quafe - Gk.0s/Gv.0s - 72m SP
Quafe Master - Quamander - Quad
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1924
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Posted - 2017.05.31 17:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
who knows what happened in between...
I stand by the unexpected peace theory... Where all the mercs stop fighting because they wouldn't leave the red zone. |
DUST Fiend
19254
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Posted - 2017.05.31 17:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:who knows what happened in between...
TELL ME THE SECRETS!!!!
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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DUST Fiend
19254
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Posted - 2017.05.31 17:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:To be fair Dust Fiend, isn't the Forge Gun a modified mining tool? And Minmatar suits have equipment integrated that was originally for heavy industrial lifting. Combat gear originating from humble roots isn't exactly a new concept.
I guess right now I'm having issue with the context. I have trouble conceptualizing things without actually having a physical representation of it to mess around with (i.e., the game) You gotta pull some lore fu over on people like me, because context matters. Maybe CONCORD CONCORDed all the mercs by frying their implant, or perhaps it was just a random glitch and it killed everyone, and then all the equipment was rounded up and salvage (vehicles :') and MCCs and RDVs and Installations along with all the infantry stuff. That would imply a large amount of time and a period of peace or something, in order to regress to the need to use improvised gear to carry out contracts.
OR
Caldari businessmen managed to sell new Dropsuit tech to the masses by using DUST mercs as a trial experiment for wealthy investors. Restricted to Molden Heath they were strictly monitored as they suffered and died, day in and day out for a glory that never existed. Once the dropsuit was perfected for average civilian use, it was ready to marketed in mass.
No one need know of the trial runs....Mordus Trials...
DUSTCEPTION
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
14326
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Posted - 2017.05.31 18:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:who knows what happened in between... I know my merc became a slushie salesman by day, and an exotic dancer going by the name of Ripped Riley by night.
My advice to you, playa.
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DiablosMajora
462
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Posted - 2017.05.31 18:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
However all modules are the same tier, and any variants you unlock are side grades.
So if I understand, there is only one "tier" of each module (standard) and all "sidegrades" are varations thereof? Example being a Drop Uplink, one with faster spawntime but less spawns, and slower spawns but more spawns?
Improvements to modules then come directly from suits and respective classes/roles? If this is the case, it seems to imply that "loot" will not be a thing in Vanilla Nova and modules will not have Meta Levels?
Prepare your angus
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9363
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Posted - 2017.05.31 18:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
However all modules are the same tier, and any variants you unlock are side grades.
So if I understand, there is only one "tier" of each module (standard) and all "sidegrades" are varations thereof? Example being a Drop Uplink, one with faster spawntime but less spawns, and slower spawns but more spawns? Improvements to modules then come directly from suits and respective classes/roles? If this is the case, it seems to imply that "loot" will not be a thing in Vanilla Nova and modules will not have Meta Levels?
Correct.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DiablosMajora
462
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Posted - 2017.05.31 21:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Correct.
My initial reaction to that is mixed, however I also realize this is the first iteration of Nova and basic progression details of the game haven't even been completed yet; getting the literal ground game going is the priority.
This brings up another set of possibly premature questions we may not yet have the answer to, such as:
- What is the business model and how will the game be monetized? Assuming in a similar manner to Dust, SKINs will be back. Will new models come with these a la League of Legends?
- How big will the maps be and what gametypes can be expected? Again, I can only assume what Dust had in this regard so TDM and King of the Hill-ish modes.
- What is the incentive to keep playing? In Dust it was the treadmill/grind of skill progression and territory control in high-level play but that seems to be gone in favor of simply upping the size of your bank account. How will a bigger bank account function with a Marketplace, but even then if all suits come pre-equipped with gear will we have a need for a Market?
- It seems clear now that being a good FPS is the focus, but will the MMO elements be completely thrown out in favor of this or will they be added/iterated upon over time?
Not ranting, just honest questions 
Prepare your angus
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Terry Webber
WarRavens Auxiliaries
988
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Posted - 2017.05.31 21:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:To be fair Dust Fiend, isn't the Forge Gun a modified mining tool? And Minmatar suits have equipment integrated that was originally for heavy industrial lifting. Combat gear originating from humble roots isn't exactly a new concept. I guess right now I'm having issue with the context. I have tro uble conceptualizing things without actually having a physical representation of it to mess around with (i.e., the game) You gotta pull some lore fu over on people like me, because context matters. Maybe CONCORD CONCORDed all the mercs by frying their implant, or perhaps it was just a random glitch and it killed everyone, and then all the equipment was rounded up and salvage (vehicles :') and MCCs and RDVs and Installations along with all the infantry stuff. That would imply a large amount of time and a period of peace or something, in order to regress to the need to use improvised gear to carry out contracts. OR Caldari businessmen managed to sell new Dropsuit tech to the masses by using DUST mercs as a trial experiment for wealthy investors. Restricted to Molden Heath they were strictly monitored as they suffered and died, day in and day out for a glory that never existed. Once the dropsuit was perfected for average civilian use, it was ready to be marketed en mass. They hit the killswitch and hurled the evidence into the nearest star. No one need know of the trial runs....Mordus Trials... DUSTCEPTION I like the second lore concept better, especially if you consider the fact that the members from the Thukker tribe from Minimatar Republic were the ones who let us take over Molden Heath to kick out the Angel Cartel (https://goo.gl/ebkumS). The Caldari businessmen might have bribed some of them to put this plan into motion. Getting rid of the Cartel was only part of the story.
But this is a tin foil subject for another thread so I won't distract you guys any further from the original discussion of this thread.
Inertial Booster Module
Vehicle Installation
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TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
3472
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Posted - 2017.05.31 22:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
who knows what happened in between...
I stand by the unexpected peace theory... Where all the mercs stop fighting because they wouldn't leave the red zone. 
Such dropsuits could have some merit in alternative gamemodes, PVE or resource extraction which is open to raids from other mercenaries then "civilian" dropsuits would be an interesting addition....
One thought would be have Myofibril abilities limited to an engineer class,, keeping a jumping ability and removing it's combat effectiveness, if this class could be selected in any gamemode, I would imagine it to me...
-Medium frame suit -L5?=3 active equipment slots (repair/scan/tools?)-No bandwidth-Sidearm only
This would keep it away from Logistics role.. offer some self defense while also keeping it away from a combat role..
I can't really say how it would fit into a battles purpose without knowing if such suits could potentially affect installations.. drones.. resource recovery.. some maps could have Mining facilities where civilian suits are need to harvest and mercs defend them, earning an evenly shared team bonus so we don't get 16 jumping flaylock engineers trying to farm... as much
Areas such as the "acid pits" could be accessed in Hazmat suits with a similar layout...
Because the entire area around objective B has gotten some toxic gas leak giving you the option to try a suicide run to capture it before the fumes choke you or assist the team in another Civilian role... interesting 
Nova Knife Now.
CCPLS
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17202
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Posted - 2017.05.31 22:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
After having read through the blog, and thought about it, I think I like the progression the more that I know and think about it. Especially the fact that you have this one suit, that you work on, and amend. It is like having your own house, that you can fix up and upgrade based upon what you want it to be. At first, everyone will have similar stuff (especially within a given role), but as time goes on, roles and playstyles will find their own flavors, even within a role/suit.
Firstly, I like that progression is based on usage. FotM chasing drove me nuts in Dust. People would abuse whatever was OP at the moment, break it so that it got nerfed, then those who really liked the role/item/weapon and were going to use it anyways got the short end of the stick. All the while, the chasers just moved on to wreck something else.
At least this way, people can't stock up on SP then just change roles when what they abused got nerfed.
Plus, it rewards people for sticking to their play style.
Second, I like that some (all?) of the bonuses/modules at the T1 level are tied to a role. This will make it much easier to prevent role bleed. At the same time, allowing gear to be transferable once into T2 means that there is still some freedom to have niche fits, like a fatty with knives.
And while I agree that this is much more streamlined than the Skill Books, I think there is still room for mistakes, if I understood the model correctly. (Which I might not have)
For example: You are able to upgrade to T2 once the first level all T1 gear is unlocked. What happens if you unlock those, and then immediately upgrade to T2? It would appear that once you are in a T2 suit, that the T1 gear no longer gets upgraded. Or maybe you have the ability to chose playing in T1 gear to continue to upgrade gear, even though your T2 suit is available? Can't really tell.
What I didn't like, on the initial read through, was the way in which gear that was not within a role needed to be achieved. It seemed like a lot of work to have to take another role and play it until you unlock things in T2 suits (which it still could be depending on the amount of grind). I think, in the end though, that I would rather reward people for using items the way this system does, than to allow just anyone to get any gear they wanted, regardless of the suits and items they played with. Plus, it is not like there was a hard wall put up between suits and item usage, there is still the ability to, if you wanted to put forth the effort.
Lastly, I think the T3 concept is really interesting. In Dust, it did kind of stink when you were in this role, like a Minja, and you had these bonuses. Some of which you really wanted to take advantage of (knife bonus), some of which you may not have at times (hacking). With T3 and the firmware, you seem to be able to adjust those to your liking, and maybe making all the bonuses of a suit compliment the role you want to play versus having 2/3 bonuses reflect a role.
In the end, hands on experience obviously lacking, I think they have created an improved system of progression. I think it reduces any concern that the game would simply be dumbed down too much, and that there would not be any freedom at all. It does a good job of balancing simplicity for new "civilian" players, while allowing veterans freedom to change bonuses and gear without being able to do it in an easily abusive manner.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17202
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Posted - 2017.05.31 22:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Luckily I have a degree in Civil Engineering. I am qualified to use a civilian suit.
Does that mean YOU can fix the tram?
Ripley Riley wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:who knows what happened in between... I know my merc became a slushie salesman by day, and an exotic dancer going by the name of Ripped Riley by night. Man has to make a living somehow...
I thought that was you I saw getting into that semi with the trucker...
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
10880
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 01:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
I don't think I get it.
The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?
Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2
How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?
A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol
Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17203
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 02:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:I don't think I get it.
The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?
Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2
How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?
A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol
Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.
I don't think you get it either.
It is WAAAAY different.
Example: In Dust, if you used a Militia suit, but had all your core skills like Armor, Dampening, Shields etc maxed, and you played against a new player using the exact same Militia suit, your stats would be different because of yours skills.
In Nova, that won't happen. If you use the same Civilian suit, you will have the same stats regardless.
Secondly, in Dust, if you progressed, you simply upgraded your skills. Period. Your armor bonuses were greater, your CPU usages were less etc. In Nova, if you progress, you can now choose module that may have a more specific usage, but it isn't a simple addition or increase. For that more specific bonus, you will lose a bonus that you previously had. It would be like an advanced minmatar scout equivalent in Nova being able to increase his knife damage at the cost of the hacking bonus. So while in that instance you would be able to be a better knifer at a higher tier, you would be doing it at the expense of your hacking ability. In Dust, you simply would increase the bonus, and not lose anything.
The reason for Civilian suits is not that you should want to use them over Tx gear, it is that New Players can just jump into the game without having to learn all about SP and whatnot first. In Dust, if you wanted to try a class, even at standard tier levels, you had to spend SP. If you did not like that style, you just wasted your SP, and you were no further along towards finding what you liked. Also, if you intended to skill in to one suit, but accidentally skilled into another, that was a mistake for life (barring paid respecs, or the incredibly rare free respec). In Nova, you simply choose a different suit.
I think you should slow down, and read through the blog more thoroughly. It is not as scary as it looks.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9364
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 02:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:I don't think I get it.
The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?
Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2
How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?
A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol
Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it.
Advantages you could have in Dust
Core Skills (Boost base stats)
Modules Skills (Boost module stats)
Dropsuit Skills (Bonuses)
Module Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Dropsuit Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Weapon Tiers (MLT-PRO)
Advantages you can have in Nova
Tech I bonuses (boost module stats)
Tech II bonuses (dropsuit bonuses)
Tech III bonuses (slight better dropsuit bonuses - replaces Tech II bonus while active)
Which do you think has worse power creep? I'd say Dust.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9364
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 05:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Update to original blog post.
UPDATE: CCP Rattati provided some clarification regarding Tech II and sharing gear between classes. Dropsuits initially start with "Fixed" slots which cannot be fit with anything outside that class's initial fit. At Tech II, those slots can be unlocked and converted to Omni slots. This allows the gear in that slot to be transferred to other classes, but it also allows you to fit gear from other classes in that slot. That being said, both classes must unlock Omni slots before they can trade gear between one another. For example, leveling an Assault to Tech II and unlocking the Fixed Shield Extender slot would allow the Shield Extender to be fit to other Classes. However, if I wanted to fit that shield extender to my Vanguard, I would first need to level Vanguard to Tech II and unlock an Omni slot to fit the Shield Extender in. As CCP Rattati put it "Both classes need to reach the same milestone"
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1273
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 08:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
"So I have to play a class I don't like to unlock something for my preferred suit, well I'll just go AFK"
This means the progression shouldn't be time based system
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28084
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 09:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:"So I have to play a class I don't like to unlock something for my preferred suit, well I'll just go AFK"
This means the progression shouldn't be time based system
no passive SP, feel free to afk
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Clone D
Solo Zen
2251
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 09:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Update to original blog post.
UPDATE: CCP Rattati provided some clarification regarding Tech II and sharing gear between classes. Dropsuits initially start with "Fixed" slots which cannot be fit with anything outside that class's initial fit. At Tech II, those slots can be unlocked and converted to Omni slots. This allows the gear in that slot to be transferred to other classes, but it also allows you to fit gear from other classes in that slot. That being said, both classes must unlock Omni slots before they can trade gear between one another. For example, leveling an Assault to Tech II and unlocking the Fixed Shield Extender slot would allow the Shield Extender to be fit to other Classes. However, if I wanted to fit that shield extender to my Vanguard, I would first need to level Vanguard to Tech II and unlock an Omni slot to fit the Shield Extender in. As CCP Rattati put it "Both classes need to reach the same milestone"
Seems convoluted. What is the point of this? To prevent people from using Civ and Tech I suits for versatile fittings? Why is this necessary? The "emotional attachment to the suit" argument is unfounded. A lot of dust players were emotionally attached to their suits, and we weren't subjected to these contrived limitations.
How many hours of play are required to progress through this nonsense? |
Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1274
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 09:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Juno Tristan wrote:"So I have to play a class I don't like to unlock something for my preferred suit, well I'll just go AFK"
This means the progression shouldn't be time based system no passive SP, feel free to afk
People will try and break the game so the progression system has to be pretty robust to deal with it.
If I can upgrade my dropsuit by simply deploying it for X matches or spending Y time in it then it encourages AFK behavior in some of the playerbase
Any active system can also be exploited if the PCE (Planetary Conquest Equivalent) allows for 'friendly' matches to be set up. Such as rep X damage or supply Y ammo. So perhaps should be excluded from generating progression or a cap per match applied
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
10881
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 09:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Joel II X wrote:I don't think I get it.
The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?
Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2
How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?
A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol
Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it. Advantages you could have in Dust Core Skills (Boost base stats) Modules Skills (Boost module stats) Dropsuit Skills (Bonuses) Module Tiers (MLT-PRO) Dropsuit Tiers (MLT-PRO) Weapon Tiers (MLT-PRO) Advantages you can have in Nova Tech I bonuses (boost module stats) Tech II bonuses (dropsuit bonuses) Tech III bonuses (slight better dropsuit bonuses - replaces Tech II bonus while active) Which do you think has worse power creep? I'd say Dust.
Oh, psh yeah. No doubt it. I just thought CCP wanted to level the playing field by getting rid of tiers in favor of racial bonuses only. I thought the difference from a T1 to a T2 suit would be going to a more specialized suit by it both greater strength and weakness (as in going from 300 shields / 200 armor to 400/100, etc). Same amount of 'tokens', but placed in different locations.
Last question: in your article, did you mean that T1 suits will have T1 bonuses, and T2 will have both T1 and T2 bonuses?
Thanks.
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
10883
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 10:08:00 -
[41] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Joel II X wrote:I don't think I get it.
The way I see it, this seems even more broken than Dust. Everyone was complaining about tiers in Dust, and then CCP brings it back ten fold by even separating tiers with bonuses? What?
Civilian - no bonuses
Tech I - Bonus 1
Tech II - Bonus 1 + Bonus 2
How is this any different? In Dust, you could choose how you upgrade your characters. In here, your choice is limited by what you are using (which is okay, I guess), but progressing and widening the gap between Newbie fits vs Vet fits is still there. There's no pass-through content, except why would anyone use Civilian over Tech X suits?
A year after Nova's launch vets using Tech X will still be stomping civilians lol
Is this how it is going to work? If not, enlighten me, por favor because I just don't get it. I don't think you get it either. It is WAAAAY different. Example: In Dust, if you used a Militia suit, but had all your core skills like Armor, Dampening, Shields etc maxed, and you played against a new player using the exact same Militia suit, your stats would be different because of yours skills. In Nova, that won't happen. If you use the same Civilian suit, you will have the same stats regardless. Secondly, in Dust, if you progressed, you simply upgraded your skills. Period. Your armor bonuses were greater, your CPU usages were less etc. In Nova, if you progress, you can now choose module that may have a more specific usage, but it isn't a simple addition or increase. For that more specific bonus, you will lose a bonus that you previously had. It would be like an advanced minmatar scout equivalent in Nova being able to increase his knife damage at the cost of the hacking bonus. So while in that instance you would be able to be a better knifer at a higher tier, you would be doing it at the expense of your hacking ability. In Dust, you simply would increase the bonus, and not lose anything. The reason for Civilian suits is not that you should want to use them over Tx gear, it is that New Players can just jump into the game without having to learn all about SP and whatnot first. In Dust, if you wanted to try a class, even at standard tier levels, you had to spend SP. If you did not like that style, you just wasted your SP, and you were no further along towards finding what you liked. Also, if you intended to skill in to one suit, but accidentally skilled into another, that was a mistake for life (barring paid respecs, or the incredibly rare free respec). In Nova, you simply choose a different suit. I think you should slow down, and read through the blog more thoroughly. It is not as scary as it looks.
Reason why I asked such questions is because Pokey wrote that Rattati said that there will be no "pass-thru" content, and then shows us that T3 is obviously the superior choice compared to all other tiers, as well as modules. I seems every item in the game will have a "pass-thru" version of it. It seems like such a backwards thing, so it threw me off.
Also, I assume matchmaking will still put players fresh from Academy unto the cruel, cruel world against anyone, so anyone that is only into T1 will have odds stacked against them if they get put up against T2 players. This also seems weird, since everyone wanted to get rid of this in Dust. Judging from what I remember from the article, it seems only T3 will be limited to its own game mode.
I don't think the article is scary at all, I'm just kind of surprised to see that they're bringing tiers back in a Dust-like balancing manner -- and we all know how that went.
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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Clone D
Solo Zen
2252
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 10:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
Are you telling me that if I want to max out every role, that I will have to go through the same Civ, T1, T2 basic progression for each one? Wash, rinse, repeat? How agonizing is that? This is going to demoralize polymaths.
Nova player: "Yeah, when I first started playing I chose a heavy class. Now that I'm a year and a half into it, I wish I had gone with assault but it would take too long to do it all over again, so I'll just stick with what I've got. Wish it didn't take so long to level up ..."
Nova player buddy: "Yeah it would be sweet to transfer my skill level over to another class. I'm tired of the same old suit day in and day out. But you're right, it would take forever to get back to where I am now." |
Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
10883
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 10:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Update to original blog post.
UPDATE: CCP Rattati provided some clarification regarding Tech II and sharing gear between classes. Dropsuits initially start with "Fixed" slots which cannot be fit with anything outside that class's initial fit. At Tech II, those slots can be unlocked and converted to Omni slots. This allows the gear in that slot to be transferred to other classes, but it also allows you to fit gear from other classes in that slot. That being said, both classes must unlock Omni slots before they can trade gear between one another. For example, leveling an Assault to Tech II and unlocking the Fixed Shield Extender slot would allow the Shield Extender to be fit to other Classes. However, if I wanted to fit that shield extender to my Vanguard, I would first need to level Vanguard to Tech II and unlock an Omni slot to fit the Shield Extender in. As CCP Rattati put it "Both classes need to reach the same milestone"
A part of me died reading this.
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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DUST Fiend
19258
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 12:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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DiablosMajora
463
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 12:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.
By the sounds of things though, that grind doesn't seem like it would be terribly awful.
Prepare your angus
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Clone D
Solo Zen
2252
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 12:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
What about celebrating the best of both worlds? Have a skill tree for some core skills, but also build in suit advancement. Core skills would be global bonuses that apply regardless of which suit you are wearing. Suit bonuses would be unlocked for a specific suit as you progress in the suit track. This would prevent civ and T1 from being boilerplate advancement tracks. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9365
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:
Oh, psh yeah. No doubt it. I just thought CCP wanted to level the playing field by getting rid of tiers in favor of racial bonuses only. I thought the difference from a T1 to a T2 suit would be going to a more specialized suit by it both greater strength and weakness (as in going from 300 shields / 200 armor to 400/100, etc). Same amount of 'tokens', but placed in different locations.
Last question: in your article, did you mean that T1 suits will have T1 bonuses, and T2 will have both T1 and T2 bonuses?
Thanks.
Well the playing field hasn't been completely leveled, but the difference has been reduced significantly. Remember, you're not unlocking new suits, you're taking the base one you have and layering on new bonuses. So your T1 simply turns into your T2, it's not like you'll have a T1 suit sitting in your closet and then a T2 of the same suit sitting next to it.
So yes, each suit has all of the benefits that come before it (T2 has T2 + T1 bonuses). So there is power increase there which was similar in Dust.
However unlike Dust, the slots, hp, resources, ect. Are the same regardless of tech level. Also there are not tiers of weapons, modules, ect. So that's going to be a huge difference in closing that gap.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DUST Fiend
19259
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules. By the sounds of things though, that grind doesn't seem like it would be terribly awful.
That's actually partly what I'm worried about. It feels like since you can unlock the skills for anything you have equipped that you will either unlock everything too quickly, or each thing will take so long to unlock that it feels like you're never making any meaningful progression.
I guess I'm the only one who thought the very deep and difficult to complete skill tree was a strength instead of a weakness.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28084
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules.
feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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DiablosMajora
463
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:...market...
Will there still be a Market like there was in Dust? The way progression was described, suits will come pre-equipped with modules so what purpose would a Market served in this instance
Prepare your angus
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DUST Fiend
19259
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules. feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market to make you obsolete. and lol at "make". Play your role and you don't have to do anything. Oh, you "want" another module, earn it.
But if you want to flesh out your role....you need full access to modules....to have diversity of fits....to deal with a diversity of issues....thus making the moment to moment gameplay more interesting and deep....
Before if I wanted to try out a shield module on my heavy I just store up some SP, and try it out. Now I have to push down the assault tree that I can't stand just to try it? Sure, I could settle for an inferior or limited fits, but at some point I'll have to play another class just to get access to more fits. It's creating an illusion of depth and diversity by forcing the players down paths that might not interest them in order to give them more things to unlock and "do". It's going to lead to players AFKing (if there are rewards simply for winning or participating, things generally needed to help noobs unless they have a fleshed out area to play for a while) or not really caring about matches they have to grind through in suits they dislike just to try out a build that interests them.
If you're a dedicated Logi you're going to be better than an FOTM chaser at what you do, always. Also, how exactly does one make a dedicated Logi obsolete by cherry picking skills and modules? Other than simply being a more dedicated player who's spent more time with their build, which still doesn't actually lead to any inate in game disadvantage.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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DiablosMajora
463
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:But if you want to flesh out your role....you need full access to modules....to have diversity of fits....to deal with a diversity of issues....thus making the moment to moment gameplay more interesting and deep....
Before if I wanted to try out a shield module on my heavy I just store up some SP, and try it out. Now I have to push down the assault tree that I can't stand just to try it?
If you're a dedicated Logi you're going to be better than an FOTM chaser at what you do, always. Also, how exactly does one make a dedicated Logi obsolete by cherry picking skills and modules? Other than simply being a more dedicated player who's spent more time with their build, which still doesn't actually lead to any inate in game disadvantage.
If I recall, "Assault" will consist of Heavy, Medium, and Light suits. Each "class" has size variants.... unless I misunderstood?
Prepare your angus
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28084
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules. feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market to make you obsolete. and lol at "make". Play your role and you don't have to do anything. Oh, you "want" another module, earn it. But if you want to flesh out your role....you need full access to modules....to have diversity of fits....to deal with a diversity of issues....thus making the moment to moment gameplay more interesting and deep.... Before if I wanted to try out a shield module on my heavy I just store up some SP, and try it out. Now I have to push down the assault tree that I can't stand just to try it? Sure, I could settle for an inferior or limited fits, but at some point I'll have to play another class just to get access to more fits. It's creating an illusion of depth and diversity by forcing the players down paths that might not interest them in order to give them more things to unlock and "do". It's going to lead to players AFKing or not really caring about matches they have to grind through in suits they dislike just to try out a build that interests them. If you're a dedicated Logi you're going to be better than an FOTM chaser at what you do, always. Also, how exactly does one make a dedicated Logi obsolete by cherry picking skills and modules? Other than simply being a more dedicated player who's spent more time with their build, which still doesn't actually lead to any inate in game disadvantage.
no passive sp, so go ahead and try to afk for SP
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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DUST Fiend
19259
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Posted - 2017.06.01 13:27:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:no passive sp, so go ahead and try to afk for SP
Which doesn't address my second point of it creating an environment that you feel forced to play through something you dislike. I have friends who ONLY play support in FPS games. You make them play an assault class and they'll get frustrated or depressed because they can't make any impact, and since you're trying to kill AFK then that means you want a performance not match based reward, they will have that much more trouble unlocking new things, which DIRECTLY punishes newer and less skilled players.
I hope that matchmaker works like a charm and keeps people separated.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
1474
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:no passive sp, so go ahead and try to afk for SP Which doesn't address my second point of it creating an environment that you feel forced to play through something you dislike. I have friends who ONLY play support in FPS games. You make them play an assault class and they'll get frustrated or depressed because they can't make any impact, and since you're trying to kill AFK then that means you want a performance not match based reward, they will have that much more trouble unlocking new things, which DIRECTLY punishes newer and less skilled players. I hope that matchmaker works like a charm and keeps people separated. Also this begs a question. You say you can't AFK, yet how exactly does one unlock a module by "using it" Does that mean to level up shield extenders I have to keep getting hit to gain XP? Or does it gain XP by victory, or time in match? If either of the latter, AFK is alive and well.
WARPOINTS
Your friendly Pub match logi
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LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
1474
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'm not as salty about the concept. Like the idea. Though I do have a question, if I play minlogi and want to use droplinks does that mean I have to play Amarr logi to get them and cal logi for nanohives? If so it would seriously diversify the playing field which is a great idea.
Your friendly Pub match logi
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DUST Fiend
19261
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
LOL KILLZ wrote:WARPOINTS
Please elaborate, I have a desperate, terminal case of the dumb as made evident by the repeated smashing of my face against various inanimate objects.
A WP centric system without passive gains would further punish the newbro that this whole system is supposedly designed to help carry along through the game. If the matchmaker is robust enough and the community large enough and the Academy lasts long enough then I can see this not being much of an issue and concede there. However if the matchmaker / end game activities don't split up the game enough, I don't see how it will stop squads from T2 stomping with a large array of fits and just coming in and crushing newbros anyways.
Rage flavored bitter berry
#BUS514
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9365
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:LOL KILLZ wrote:WARPOINTS Please elaborate, I have a desperate, terminal case of the dumb as made evident by the repeated smashing of my face against various inanimate objects. A WP centric system without passive gains would further punish the newbro that this whole system is supposedly designed to help carry along through the game. If the matchmaker is robust enough and the community large enough and the Academy lasts long enough then I can see this not being much of an issue and concede there. However if the matchmaker / end game activities don't split up the game enough, I don't see how it will stop squads from T2 stomping with a large array of fits and just coming in and crushing newbros anyways.
I will gladly shoot you in the face repeatedly to help you level up. Because we are buddies like that.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Clone D
Solo Zen
2253
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
@Rattati
I would like to better understand your vision for dropsuit advancement timeline. In terms of hours of play, what is your target for maxing out one dropsuit track from civ to T3?
What is your intended reward schedule in terms of dropsuit milestones?
Thank you |
DUST Fiend
19261
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 13:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I will gladly shoot you in the face repeatedly to help you level up. Because we are buddies like that.
I'm not worried about me. With no passive gains I won't have any reason to store up for the eventual potential maybe tm release of vehicles, so unless I happen to get sucked in I just plan to pop in for technical tests and my own curiosity with the development. And if I do get sucked in to the game, while I might be trash I'm far less trash than 60-70% of the regular FPS crowd so I tend to float upwards regardless of how drunk I am.
My arguments simply come from a point of concern in regards to the "soul of DUST" and how exactly this all helps the newbro in the end, thus theoretically justifying the radical shift in design. |
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9366
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Posted - 2017.06.01 13:58:00 -
[61] - Quote
LOL KILLZ wrote:I'm not as salty about the concept. Like the idea. Though I do have a question, if I play minlogi and want to use droplinks does that mean I have to play Amarr logi to get them and cal logi for nanohives? If so it would seriously diversify the playing field which is a great idea.
Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. But you get the right idea, you'll have to play different classes to unlock gear if you want to use it on your main.
It's very similar to Cross-Class Skills from MMORPGs. Final Fantasy XIV comes to mind since that's what I'm playing right now.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
664
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 14:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi.
I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr).
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2792
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Posted - 2017.06.01 14:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
So now the question that stands is : how much work/time will you need to put in order to get a full tech II and/or III for a given class. Maybe an approximate number / or an idea?
As others pointed out, being forced to play a class you very much dislike in order to make your class better is a grind no matter how you look at it. Depending on the previous question's answer this can be bearable or unbearable.
I use the word "forced" because that's the feeling someone who wants to maximize his class potential will get.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9366
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Posted - 2017.06.01 14:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr).
That is correct.
Firmware obviously offers some variety, but I imagine that future expansion of the system would yield new classes, rather than variations of existing ones.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
664
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Posted - 2017.06.01 14:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
Doesn't sound very EVE like to me (unless EVE was limited to 1 Exploration frigate, 1 Logistics frigate, 1 Attack frigate, and 1 Destroyer ).
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9368
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Posted - 2017.06.01 14:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:So now the question that stands is : how much work/time will you need to put in order to get a full tech II and/or III for a given class. Maybe an approximate number / or an idea?
As others pointed out, being forced to play a class you very much dislike in order to make your class better is a grind no matter how you look at it. Depending on the previous question's answer this can be bearable or unbearable.
I use the word "forced" because that's the feeling someone who wants to maximize his class potential will get.
I think that's a pretty fair question that seems to be cropping up a lot.
"As a player who wants access to most or modules, how long will it take for me to unlock the ability to do so?"
Or a more.focused inquiry would be "How long does it take to get a class to tech Ii?" And "How long does it take to unlock an Omni slot?"
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1276
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
They've got to allow some overlap in the progression system for example
Drop uplinks could be considered light support
Triage hives could be considered heavy support
You would want medium support to have access to both of these but I would not expect to have to get light and heavy to tech 2 to accomplish this.
I would think the progression is get tech 1, earn WP using the suit to unlock the slots and allow you to put something else in that fits the suit profile I.e swap out the repair tool for hives
Level the whole suit to tech 2 then level up the slots again to unlock the equipment for use on any suit I.e. cloak on a heavy
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9370
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:06:00 -
[68] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:They've got to allow some overlap in the progression system for example
Drop uplinks could be considered light support
Triage hives could be considered heavy support
You would want medium support to have access to both of these but I would not expect to have to get light and heavy to tech 2 to accomplish this.
I would think the progression is get tech 1, earn WP using the suit to unlock the slots and allow you to put something else in that fits the suit profile I.e swap out the repair tool for hives
Level the whole suit to tech 2 then level up the slots again to unlock the equipment for use on any suit I.e. cloak on a heavy
I think there would obviously have to be some overlap in some cases. Like Shield Extender for example, multiple classes are going to have that right? So the base module is the same, but each could have unique variants you unlock through that class, so you're still encouraged to try and unlock them if they have a variant you're looking to get.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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byte modal
1335
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 15:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr). That is correct. Firmware obviously offers some variety, but I imagine that future expansion of the system would yield new classes, rather than variations of existing ones.
This is just for context here to make sure I'm following, but in this example I assume it would at best be impractical to build a squad purely for the RP value (or any other reason) of say just Minmatar suits? This is not a comparison to DUST. I just want to know if this is the foundation that NOVA is being built on. Or at least a reasonable interpretation.
Or is this one generic logi suit without racial affiliation?
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9370
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:31:00 -
[70] - Quote
byte modal wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr). That is correct. Firmware obviously offers some variety, but I imagine that future expansion of the system would yield new classes, rather than variations of existing ones. This is just for context here to make sure I'm following, but in this example I assume it would at best be impractical to build a squad purely for the RP value (or any other reason) of say just Minmatar suits? This is not a comparison to DUST. I just want to know if this is the foundation that NOVA is being built on. Or at least a reasonable interpretation. Or is this one generic logi suit without racial affiliation?
The suit is tied specifically to an NPC corps/manufacturer. That manufacturer likely has a race it is tied to (Boundless Minmatar, Creodron Gallente, ect.)
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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byte modal
1335
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:38:00 -
[71] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:byte modal wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr). That is correct. Firmware obviously offers some variety, but I imagine that future expansion of the system would yield new classes, rather than variations of existing ones. This is just for context here to make sure I'm following, but in this example I assume it would at best be impractical to build a squad purely for the RP value (or any other reason) of say just Minmatar suits? This is not a comparison to DUST. I just want to know if this is the foundation that NOVA is being built on. Or at least a reasonable interpretation. Or is this one generic logi suit without racial affiliation? The suit is tied specifically to an NPC corps/manufacturer. That manufacturer likely has a race it is tied to (Boundless Minmatar, Creodron Gallente, ect.)
But what I'm getting at is if that one Logi suit is then tied to a single NPC corp, that NPC corp is going to be tied to a race. So the one logi suit is only ever a Minmatar suit. Am I understanding that right? And there is only one logi suit? So every logi suit is Minmatar?
Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read/listen to the OP for clarity so I may be rehashing all this.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9370
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
To the best of my understanding, you are correct. All Logis will be the same race.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
667
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:48:00 -
[73] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:To the best of my understanding, you are correct. All Logis will be the same race.
Don't you mean faction?
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9371
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:49:00 -
[74] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:To the best of my understanding, you are correct. All Logis will be the same race. Don't you mean faction?
Well I do, but he's speaking from a roleplay perspective of "Which race will the manufacturer be tied to."
You are correct though, all suits of the same class as tied to the same Corp/Faction
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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byte modal
1336
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:53:00 -
[75] - Quote
Ok. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I'm only speaking broadly to race. I don't like getting into specifics (factions) if my understandings of a bigger picture are wrong. ...usually ;)
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Sergeant Sazu
Mantodea MC
1170
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
So if a given suit type is made by a manufacturer tied to a faction... I'm concerned an entire role will be railroaded into it's racial doctrine until it's a high enough tier to make your own changes.
I could be missing something, but that's what I'm getting from this.
"Stab you to death, stab you to life!"
-Truck Fist while knifing a red and reviving me
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Moorian Flav
670
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:57:00 -
[77] - Quote
I was just hassling you, Pokey. Everyone got what you were saying.
Anyway, coming from DUST, this is kind of a crushing disappointment. CCP definitely seems aimed toward streamlining/simplifying their FPS though for the mainstream though.
Ironically, faction is a big factor starting out in EVE as an Alpha clone as it locks you only to the ships of the faction you picked during character creation. That is why it is all the more surprising to me factions have so little focus in Nova. In fact, moving from EVE to Nova or Nova to EVE, I see it really making zero sense to players. That is why with all of the streamlining being done to Nova, I am not even sure why CCP kept it within the EVE universe instead of making it's own standalone title.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9371
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Posted - 2017.06.01 16:08:00 -
[78] - Quote
Sergeant Sazu wrote:So if a given suit type is made by a manufacturer tied to a faction... I'm concerned an entire role will be railroaded into it's racial doctrine until it's a high enough tier to make your own changes.
I could be missing something, but that's what I'm getting from this. Are the suits gonna be more or less neutral in their attributes to prevent this?
It's unclear how they plan to do the base fits, but it stands to reason they would adopt the manufacturers design doctrine.
Kinda like how Borderlands 2 guns follow certain design principles depending on who made the gun.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1277
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Posted - 2017.06.01 16:15:00 -
[79] - Quote
Are shield vs armour suits still a thing?
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9371
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Posted - 2017.06.01 16:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:I was just hassling you, Pokey. Everyone got what you were saying.
Anyway, coming from DUST, this is kind of a crushing disappointment. CCP definitely seems aimed toward streamlining/simplifying their FPS for the mainstream though.
Ironically, faction is a big factor starting out in EVE as an Alpha clone as it locks you only to the ships of the faction you picked during character creation. That is why it is all the more surprising to me factions have so little focus in Nova. In fact, moving from EVE to Nova or Nova to EVE, I see it really making zero sense to players. That is why with all of the streamlining being done to Nova, I am not even sure why CCP kept it within the EVE universe instead of making it's own standalone scifi FPS title.
Actually Thaddeus Reynolds wrote up these amazing lore blurbs based off of the lore in EVE that laid out all of the design doctrines for the manufacturers/corps. Rattati already snatched it up and forwarded it to the design team.
So less focus on the 4 empires, more focus on the corporations within them, but they're very invested in making it fit the lore of those corporations.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1925
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Posted - 2017.06.01 17:15:00 -
[81] - Quote
Sounds like the issue of people running Logi to max out their sp gains is solved... Wont help you beyond leveling your Logi suit, lol.
As long as the bonuses you unlock with each suit make sense, then no one will have to play a role they don't want, because you wont need the modules/bonuses it has.
It also means the best of each role will be decided on who works on that role the most, as opposed to whoever maxed out something first being able to just passively get better at every other role even though they never play it.
Sounds pretty solid to me.
Would be nice to know if maxing out a suit is going to be long term (years with daily/weekly/monthly caps) or if it's more short term (get to your max level for end-game, week/month tops.) |
Moorian Flav
674
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Posted - 2017.06.01 17:33:00 -
[82] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Would be nice to know if maxing out a suit is going to be long term (years with daily/weekly/monthly caps) or if it's more short term (get to your max level for end-game, week/month tops.)
To me with the continually streamlined scope (and seemingly less to unlock), Nova sounds like a much shorter term game than what was planned for DUST. Off the info given, my guess would be 2-3 year game lifespan. Only thing that would change that is if there is a killer end game mode to keep players playing for longer.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
617
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Posted - 2017.06.01 17:36:00 -
[83] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:It feels pretty weak to make people play classes they dislike just to fill out their equipment and modules. feels pretty weak to be a dedicated logi and FOTM chasers cherrypick skills and modules from the market to make you obsolete. and lol at "make". Play your role and you don't have to do anything. Oh, you "want" another module, earn it. No passive SP -This is a rational move.
Dust system was like being a Carpenter for last 10 years, working with wood everyday andthen suddently within a few hours being able to change your profession to sucesfull wall street broker or another Luciano Pavarotti like it was nothing. Total nonsense. I think that many players will understand it, and find it logic.
When I was playing World Of Tanks years ago I had to start each class from the beginning, and there was no shortcuts on learning 'how to play' with each of them, of curse I could buy some top tier tank, but on long term it was better to learn tactics on lowe tier matches with last shorter compart to high tier matches.
What I do not like about presented progression is that damage bonus. When players starts playing new game, their aiming skills are not that good, but with the time they getting better and better.. and after some time do they really need any extra help in form of damage bonus, while player who progres slower with his aiming skills need that help. Damage bonus continues bad players to be a bad player, and good players to be even better players. Extended magazine size instead of damage bonus would be better, more efficient.
This is Skirmish v1.0.
In my free time I like to spend time.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9371
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Posted - 2017.06.01 17:39:00 -
[84] - Quote
Don't take those bonuses to mean much. Literally pulled them out of my ass at 2am when I was writing this. They were purely to present and easily understandable example, and not a finalized design.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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byte modal
1337
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 18:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Don't take those bonuses to mean much. Literally pulled them out of my ass at 2am when I was writing this. They were purely to present and easily understandable example, and not a finalized design.
I like it when you talk dirty. I miss that about you.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9373
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Posted - 2017.06.01 18:30:00 -
[86] - Quote
byte modal wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Don't take those bonuses to mean much. Literally pulled them out of my ass at 2am when I was writing this. They were purely to present and easily understandable example, and not a finalized design. I like it when you talk dirty. I miss that about you.
Oh dear...
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
675
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Posted - 2017.06.01 19:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Actually Thaddeus Reynolds wrote up these amazing lore blurbs based off of the lore in EVE that laid out all of the design doctrines for the manufacturers/corps. Rattati already snatched it up and forwarded it to the design team.
So less focus on the 4 empires, more focus on the corporations within them, but they're very invested in making it fit the lore of those corporations.
I think I am pretty good at bending lore around in-game functionality with some of my suggestions I've made in the past but I do not see how a single Assault suit design or single Assault Rifle model could be explained as the only ones used within an entire universe (EVE). Case in point: The Earth is only one planet and it has how many Assault rifle models? Even if you narrow that number down within the last 10 years, it is still a lot.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9373
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 19:45:00 -
[88] - Quote
And only 4 assault suits in Dust made much more sense?
Besides, what you're seeing are different corporations takes on the same ideas.
Corp A says "We want a suit that's well rounded with food speed, defense, and damage output" so they make the Assault suit
Corp B says "We want an offensive suit with lots of flexibility and hp even if it costs us some speed" so they make the Vanguard (which is like the heavy assault)
Corp C says "we want an offensive suit that's agile and stealthy, good for assassinations and covert kills" so they make the Infiltrator (which is like the light Assault)
In the future you may get Corp D that says "We want an offer some suit that specializes in sapping enemy capacitor to fuel his active offensive abilities" and create their own take on the idea of "Assault"
Or Corp E that says "we want an offensive suit that specializes in indirect damage with lots of bonuses to grenades and aoe weapons" and create their own take on "Assault"
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2792
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Posted - 2017.06.01 20:12:00 -
[89] - Quote
In other words you get a piece of clay which you further shape to suit your own imagination?
Depending on the source (class) the clay will be more or less plastic, it will differ in density, etc.
Am I comprehending it good?
P.S. I can get behind the idea of a single suit. Say it's the foundation from which you base your own design.
It's good enough that people don't change a certain aspect of the suit but modify the other.
Take a look at the kevlar. The principal is the same, it looks very similar. It's a piece of metal / composite.
What changes is the material, its thickness and its layers. Just like the bonuses and mods you will change.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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byte modal
1338
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Posted - 2017.06.01 20:23:00 -
[90] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:And only 4 assault suits in Dust made much more sense?
Besides, what you're seeing are different corporations takes on the same ideas.
Corp A says "We want a suit that's well rounded with food speed, defense, and damage output" so they make the Assault suit
Corp B says "We want an offensive suit with lots of flexibility and hp even if it costs us some speed" so they make the Vanguard (which is like the heavy assault)
Corp C says "we want an offensive suit that's agile and stealthy, good for assassinations and covert kills" so they make the Infiltrator (which is like the light Assault)
In the future you may get Corp D that says "We want an offer some suit that specializes in sapping enemy capacitor to fuel his active offensive abilities" and create their own take on the idea of "Assault"
Or Corp E that says "we want an offensive suit that specializes in indirect damage with lots of bonuses to grenades and aoe weapons" and create their own take on "Assault"
I guess it depends from what perspective you are seeing that play out. Four assault suits do make sense in DUST if each race has a racial suit to fill an assault role. From that perspective, yes, it does make sense.
If the corp is manufacturing these suits to sell (rather than to deploy directly), then that can make sense to me as well. If the corp is wanting to take part in some militant advance or defense, it would make absolutely no sense to produce and field only one class of combat suit.
...
Team, I want to build an army like no other, to expand our military might and to conquer this stinking sector of the known universe!!!!!
Yes Sir!!!
I want all ideas on the table! Leave no stone un-turned!!!
Well...I was thinking. What if we put all of our eggs into one basket here and only research, develop, and deploy heavy pounding but slow suits so that we can turtle bottleneck entry points?
BRILLIANT thinking there, Jimmy!! *pats little Jimmy on the butt*
Awe shucks, Sir!!
But Sir... what if we are deployed in open terrain? And the enemy forces are made up of lighter, more mobile infantry that our heavies cannot track?
PREPOSTEROUS, Tommy!!!! Who would think to deploy a team of only light scouts?! Use that brain of yours, son, and start thinking for a change!!
...
Jimmy?
Yes....um. Yes, Sir?
Meet me out back for a little PT.
Sir, yes Sir!
lol. anyway. The point I guess I'm worming around here is that context is a huge factor in understanding some of this. As more posts pop up, I am realizing some of these key factors are missing and are being misunderstood in assumption. The more of these type of details that we can learn, the more likely we are to get the design of the bigger picture.
Corps specializing and fielding only one suit type is not practical at all.
Corps specializing and SELLING only one suit type can be profitable.
That distinction is missing here and can seriously distort the view of what's playing out, I believe.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9375
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Posted - 2017.06.01 21:18:00 -
[91] - Quote
Well people are locked into the idea that all assault suits need to be called "Assault". What if he just look at the types of roles in two very broad categories.
Assault - These are your primary damage dealers, the ones kicking the doors in, doing the most damage, and focusing on killing the enemy.
Support - These are the force multipliers. The roles that fill in the gaps and perform more specialist roles. They're the ones providing cover fire, healing allies, and picking off long range targets.
So now if we think in these broad terms, now let's say you have 6 corporations each making their own version of a suit that fits into one of those broad categories.
So corporation A-C builds their version an Assault Dropsuit. Corporations D-F builds their version of a Support dropsuit.
A builds a Vanguard
B builds a Frontline
C builds an infiltrator
D builds a Sentinel
E builds a Logistics
F builds a marksman
Does that make sense?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
676
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 22:16:00 -
[92] - Quote
First off, Pokey, I would like to point out I am not trying to be a jerk/troll and start stuff here. I am just giving my thoughts about Nova although my perspective in all honesty is filtered from my experience in both DUST and EVE. If you take DUST and EVE out of the equation, the little I've heard about Nova sounds like it might be pretty solid. I am just confused as at Fanfest it was said Nova was moved to Iceland to be more EVE like but am not seeing the likeness between Nova and EVE besides Insurance and Nova sharing some of EVE's NPC corporations.
With all that said, I will back off on this thread so I can see where it goes instead of seemingly just adding bumps in the road.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9375
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Posted - 2017.06.01 22:49:00 -
[93] - Quote
I didn't get that impression at all man. Honestly just trying to talk it all out and swap ideas. You know, what forums are supposed to be like haha.
No need to back off, I'm enjoying the conversation.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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byte modal
1339
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 23:39:00 -
[94] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Well people are locked into the idea that all assault suits need to be called "Assault". What if he just look at the types of roles in two very broad categories.
Assault - These are your primary damage dealers, the ones kicking the doors in, doing the most damage, and focusing on killing the enemy.
Support - These are the force multipliers. The roles that fill in the gaps and perform more specialist roles. They're the ones providing cover fire, healing allies, and picking off long range targets.
So now if we think in these broad terms, now let's say you have 6 corporations each making their own version of a suit that fits into one of those broad categories.
So corporation A-C builds their version an Assault Dropsuit. Corporations D-F builds their version of a Support dropsuit.
A builds a Vanguard
B builds a Frontline
C builds an infiltrator
D builds a Sentinel
E builds a Logistics
F builds a marksman
Does that make sense?
I think the reason we are locked into the idea of assaults being assaults is because our only context is through what was experienced in DUST. That goes back to my point though with these smaller details. I think so much time has passed living in a holding pattern post-DUST waiting for the next thing, that we've more or less run our own speculations in a completely hypothetical environment---because there was nothing else provided to counter that. A lot of us DUST players are unfortunately stuck in the DUST mindset (some out of stubbornness, others simply because we have no other context to base our views upon than what we experienced). Assault is "assault" as DUST defined assault. for good or bad, that's our starting point of context.
Apparently our perspective is off now. Which is fine. Really. I think as time passes and more of us realize CCP's intentional redirection from a DUST replacement to a "NEW and SEPARATE game," we will all come around; however, there are still pockets of missing information where it is just too easy to rely on preconceived notions based on DUST's teachings and our experiences there.
Pokey: Keep fighting the good fight. Your posts are helping mediate between the two camps.
To the suit explanation, I think I get where you're coming from but I still say it would be impractical for a corporation to specialize in just one type of suit if that corporation has desire to field those suits for aggression against other corps. In your outline, that really would only make sense if each of the separate corporations had an agreement with one another to form some type of coalition to fight along side each other. This would be designed to take advantage of other corp suit types to complement their own suit weaknesses. Like, "Hey my suit is logi! I can't fight a battle for my corp with a field full of logis?! Your corp designed a kick-ass frontline attack suit? Hey! Let's work together!!! Or I'll sell you some of mine and you sell me some of yours?" I struggle with the idea that only a Minmatar corp would create a logi, and would be willing to share that logi tech for assault tech designed by an Amarr corp ...in mutual support for each other.
Let me repeat my earlier statement though: If the corp's sole purpose in development of a single suit type is to SELL for profit, then by all means let them. That makes perfect sense. If corps are creating and selling to us, the mercs to do with as we place, then I think that is logical. Otherwise I can't realistically see 16 Min logis running around a battlefield if individual corps are fighting their own wars.
Hey. I'm not trying to be difficult, I promise. I'm only providing an example of a seemingly subtle detail that could be causing confusion here, and as a result, more push back in resistance. It confused me (still does, to a small degree!!), but I'm trying to see it the way you are reading it.
Alright. I gotta leave for the day. Take care and thanks for the responses so far.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1497
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 01:54:00 -
[95] - Quote
I've real issues with what's been said on the last few pages here.
first off, I'm not clear on the break down of classes/suits and their association with corps/factions.
When we say the classes are based on factions... i want to know who's factions? Amarr factions? Caldari Factions? Minmatar or Gallente?
"CCP Rattati
We are not making 4 of each, so racial limitations are not smart. ItGÇÖs more GÇ£supportGÇ¥ weapons or GÇ£offensiveGÇ¥ weapons we are not making 4 races of every object."
http://biomassed.net/2017/05/18/project-nova-ongoing-updates-may-16th/
I think people may have gotten lost on this statement. it refers to weapon systems, not suits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Togcb1rNnko
In the video, you'll see a gal scout in the menu, but amarr and minmatar scouts in game. Why put the effort into the art assets and not allow their use in game?
thats like saying only one corp in New Eden produces an assault suit and no other corp or race had need of an assault suit.
Eve Online: Assault ships... each races has TWO variants of the assault ships class. Each variant is made by a different corp.
But then there's this....
"CCP Rattati
What are your favorite NPC corporations and why? We are exploring a new way to approach player classes. less focus on empires, and more on the fact that these are humans and humans interact with corporations more than empires. We are also not interested in making GÇÿ4 of eachGÇÖ anymore.
So you could start by playing the GÇ£heavy supportGÇ¥ or Sentinel. That Sentinel, much like and AK-47 is made by a company. The company inherits some flavor from its native empire. So the Sentinel is made by Kaalakiota lets say; the Vanguard is made by CONCORD. But, much like the M16 has factory settings, the Navy Seals have a custom M16 which could then be the Carthum M16. Same chassis, different decals and skin and GÇ£flavoredGÇ¥ stats GÇö Better damage, less clip"
http://biomassed.net/2017/05/20/project-nova-what-we-know-so-far/
This seems to actually indicated the the U.S., Russia, China, and U.K. all use an AK-47, but that we can choose a HK produced AK-47, or S&W produce AK-47, or and AK-47 made by some other company.
The reality is that, no. We're using AK-47, M16, G36c, FAMAS, and other stuff. But they are all of the "assault rifle class"
What needs to be clarified is whether CCP intends to give us corp based variants of a caldari assault suit, but not corp based variants of a amarr assault suit.
The NPC corps Kaalakiota and CreoDrone do not make variants of the same base design of a light scout.
Will there be Kaalakiota, CreoDron, Khanid Kingdom, Brutor Tribe vanguard suits? Each corp just named is from a different race, but each would be representing a "vanguard class" dropsuit.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1499
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 02:03:00 -
[96] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Well people are locked into the idea that all assault suits need to be called "Assault". What if he just look at the types of roles in two very broad categories.
Assault - These are your primary damage dealers, the ones kicking the doors in, doing the most damage, and focusing on killing the enemy.
Support - These are the force multipliers. The roles that fill in the gaps and perform more specialist roles. They're the ones providing cover fire, healing allies, and picking off long range targets.
So now if we think in these broad terms, now let's say you have 6 corporations each making their own version of a suit that fits into one of those broad categories.
So corporation A-C builds their version an Assault Dropsuit. Corporations D-F builds their version of a Support dropsuit.
A builds a Vanguard
B builds a Frontline
C builds an infiltrator
D builds a Sentinel
E builds a Logistics
F builds a marksman
Does that make sense?
No.
What is a Vanguard?
What is an Assault Dropsuit?
I'm reading this more like... the only assualt dropsuit in the game is one made by Brutor Tribe of the Minmatar Republic.
WTF happened to the gallente, caldari, and amarr assault dropsuit? Do none of their corps produce assault dropsuits?
That's like trying to tell me that Chinese based company in China has the only planes in the world. If you want to buy a plane, you have to buy theirs. But French companies make planes too, and American companies and lots of others.
or better yet cars. Are all cars made by Honda? This idea that only one company makes something is either complete BS that needs to be reviewed, or is in need of SEVERE clarification |
byte modal
1340
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 02:03:00 -
[97] - Quote
Yay!
Some common ground here, finally ;)
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9378
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 02:21:00 -
[98] - Quote
Vanguard is the new name for Commando.
I just said Frontline instead of Assault to avoid confusion.
As for the rest, I've explained this a few different ways but it seems none of them are really clicking with you, and for that I apologize. Perhaps someone else will have better luck, cause I'm not really sure how else to explain it.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1499
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 02:51:00 -
[99] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Vanguard is the new name for Commando.
I just said Frontline instead of Assault to avoid confusion.
As for the rest, I've explained this a few different ways but it seems none of them are really clicking with you, and for that I apologize. Perhaps someone else will have better luck, cause I'm not really sure how else to explain it.
I'm trying to get clarification.
Amarr Ship Tree
This picture illustrates my expectation for Nova.
Ship "Classes" break down into specialized ships, each of which developed by a corp that is a member of its race and based off a base line ship.
Will Nova follow this structure or not?
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DUST Fiend
19268
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 03:02:00 -
[100] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:these are humans and humans interact with corporations more than empires.
Wait.....what?
I didn't know humans could respawn |
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 03:10:00 -
[101] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:these are humans and humans interact with corporations more than empires. Wait.....what? I didn't know humans could respawn
"CCP Rattati
What are your favorite NPC corporations and why? We are exploring a new way to approach player classes. less focus on empires, and more on the fact that these are humans and humans interact with corporations more than empires. We are also not interested in making GÇÿ4 of eachGÇÖ anymore."
[url]http://biomassed.net/2017/05/20/project-nova-what-we-know-so-far/[/url]
Why you saying I said something I never actually said? |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9378
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 03:16:00 -
[102] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Vanguard is the new name for Commando.
I just said Frontline instead of Assault to avoid confusion.
As for the rest, I've explained this a few different ways but it seems none of them are really clicking with you, and for that I apologize. Perhaps someone else will have better luck, cause I'm not really sure how else to explain it. I'm trying to get clarification. Amarr Ship TreeThis picture illustrates my expectation for Nova. Ship "Classes" break down into specialized ships, each of which developed by a corp that is a member of its race and based off a base line ship. Will Nova follow this structure or not?
From my understanding, no.
This is my understanding of how it will look (forgive the half assed flow chart)
Remember that I am obviously not a developer and everything I know is available on Biomassed.net, so there is a degree of speculation on my part, so take it with a grain of salt.
http://biomassed.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Rough-Class-Progression-Page-1.png
Also I'm trying to get clarification about the "one faction for each class" thing. It's been implied to be that way but I will try to get a definitive confirmation one way or another.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
|
DUST Fiend
19268
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 03:44:00 -
[103] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:these are humans and humans interact with corporations more than empires. Wait.....what? I didn't know humans could respawn "CCP Rattati What are your favorite NPC corporations and why? We are exploring a new way to approach player classes. less focus on empires, and more on the fact that these are humans and humans interact with corporations more than empires. We are also not interested in making GÇÿ4 of eachGÇÖ anymore." [url]http://biomassed.net/2017/05/20/project-nova-what-we-know-so-far/[/url] Why you saying I said something I never actually said?
Oops my bad, I didn't mean to imply you said it. Messed up the quotes. I need sleep not forums lol o7 |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 09:04:00 -
[104] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Vanguard is the new name for Commando.
I just said Frontline instead of Assault to avoid confusion.
As for the rest, I've explained this a few different ways but it seems none of them are really clicking with you, and for that I apologize. Perhaps someone else will have better luck, cause I'm not really sure how else to explain it. I'm trying to get clarification. Amarr Ship TreeThis picture illustrates my expectation for Nova. Ship "Classes" break down into specialized ships, each of which developed by a corp that is a member of its race and based off a base line ship. Will Nova follow this structure or not? From my understanding, no. This is my understanding of how it will look (forgive the half assed flow chart) Remember that I am obviously not a developer and everything I know is available on Biomassed.net, so there is a degree of speculation on my part, so take it with a grain of salt. http://biomassed.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Rough-Class-Progression-Page-1.pngAlso I'm trying to get clarification about the "one faction for each class" thing. It's been implied to be that way but I will try to get a definitive confirmation one way or another.
Well I see it as a problem if they don't.
I was hoping that overall "class" progression followed like in the flow chart, but also that each "class" is actually a category containing different base drop suits. What would be good is that it's totally capable of allowing new corps to be added to each "class"
The problem is how ccp said they don't want 4 of everything. If they followed the approach of multiple corps within each "class", then we'd get something like 8 caldari mega corps. 4 of which were ever represented in game for eve online. A ton of corps would be available for each race as corp product lines.
Instead of 4 empire/racial variants of a particular dropsuit, we could potentially see something over 30 different Corp based variants of the same "class".
A LOT more work but it provides a future wealth of potential content as more and more corps could added to the game. For example, caldari 4 major corps out of their 8 megacorps, are Kaalakiota, Ishikune, lai dai, wiyrkomi.
But a quick look at this more complete listing of caldari corps shows just how many corps there really are to pontentially create content for.
Caldari NPC Corps
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Grimmiers
957
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 09:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
I'm not really a fan of being forced to play other classes to unlock gear you want, but the idea will work much better for new players.
One thing I hope for is the ability to manufacture gear that you can use without training a separate class. The resources required should be shared between eve and nova creating a real infantry market. Even npc corps should have a limited stock available on the market and allow players to sell unused resources to npc's to help them produce things.
Npc corps will even use blueprints sold to them. They'll use the blueprint in the most efficient way creating the most gear per blueprint, but the item will be on the market for anyone to buy. This will make player corporations a lot more meaningful if, for instance, corp members with the same manufacture skill trained will boost production and have control over who gets what. In the end game, players would desire player corp markets and create a more interesting corp battle motive, wherein dust you just sold excess clones.
tl;dr I like the system if there's manufactured gear that you can fit without having to play other classes. |
Clone D
Solo Zen
2256
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 09:46:00 -
[106] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:I'm not really a fan of being forced to play other classes to unlock gear you want, but the idea will work much better for new players.
The fact that a skill tree is considered "too hard" for new players is frightening to me. What? Is this generation a bunch of bumbling buffoons? I can't tell you how many games with a skill tree that I played when I was a kid, and we all thought they were awesome. It is the RPG way, and it allows a strong level of self determination in character development.
I felt personal reward from learning and mastering the skill tree. It required some degree of planning and cultivated a sense of identity with my character.
In Dust, I often skipped using gear until I saved up enough SP to buy level 5 and reaped the benefits of the bonuses. In Nova characters will be subjected to developing the same skill bonuses over and over as they move through different classes in an attempt to unlock new modules. Oh boy |
Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1277
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 09:53:00 -
[107] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:I'm not really a fan of being forced to play other classes to unlock gear you want, but the idea will work much better for new players.
One thing I hope for is the ability to manufacture gear that you can use without training a separate class. The resources required should be shared between eve and nova creating a real infantry market. Even npc corps should have a limited stock available on the market and allow players to sell unused resources to npc's to help them produce things.
Npc corps will even use blueprints sold to them. They'll use the blueprint in the most efficient way creating the most gear per blueprint, but the item will be on the market for anyone to buy. This will make player corporations a lot more meaningful if, for instance, corp members with the same manufacture skill trained will boost production and have control over who gets what. In the end game, players would desire player corp markets and create a more interesting corp battle motive, wherein dust you just sold excess clones.
Most of your gear will be BPOs, with consumable per match firmware
So there won't be an EVE style market for standard gear, hopefully for shiny consumable loot though
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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Joel II X
Bacon with a bottle of Quafe
10886
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 09:53:00 -
[108] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Joel II X wrote:
Oh, psh yeah. No doubt it. I just thought CCP wanted to level the playing field by getting rid of tiers in favor of racial bonuses only. I thought the difference from a T1 to a T2 suit would be going to a more specialized suit by it both greater strength and weakness (as in going from 300 shields / 200 armor to 400/100, etc). Same amount of 'tokens', but placed in different locations.
Last question: in your article, did you mean that T1 suits will have T1 bonuses, and T2 will have both T1 and T2 bonuses?
Thanks.
Well the playing field hasn't been completely leveled, but the difference has been reduced significantly. Remember, you're not unlocking new suits, you're taking the base one you have and layering on new bonuses. So your T1 simply turns into your T2, it's not like you'll have a T1 suit sitting in your closet and then a T2 of the same suit sitting next to it. So yes, each suit has all of the benefits that come before it (T2 has T2 + T1 bonuses). So there is power increase there which was similar in Dust. However unlike Dust, the slots, hp, resources, ect. Are the same regardless of tech level. Also there are not tiers of weapons, modules, ect. So that's going to be a huge difference in closing that gap.
Ahhhhh! Okay, okay. I get it now.
I think this is a pretty cool little thing, if the bonuses are balanced well enough.
Still though, not being able to edit them until T2 is a huge bummer for me. I hope they change their mind on this one before any sort of release.
Scouts United
Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
759
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 11:47:00 -
[109] - Quote
One option for avoiding playing classes you don't like to gain equipment you do could be to do missions for specific corporations or factions that have unique variations of the suit class you like with the specific equipment type you want equipped already...nothing says that all suits of a given faction and race need have the same equipment baked in |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9378
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 13:56:00 -
[110] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Instead of 4 empire/racial variants of a particular dropsuit, we could potentially see something over 30 different Corp based variants of the same "class". A LOT more work but it provides a future wealth of potential content as more and more corps could added to the game. For example, caldari 4 major corps out of their 8 megacorps, are Kaalakiota, Ishikune, lai dai, wiyrkomi. But a quick look at this more complete listing of caldari corps shows just how many corps there really are to pontentially create content for. Caldari NPC Corps
Valid concerns but like you said, a lot more work and more difficulty balancing/designing many variations of effectively the same thing. If anything the firmware system does allow for all of those variations, it just happens at the tail end of the progression rather than the beginning or middle.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28100
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 14:16:00 -
[111] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:One option for avoiding playing classes you don't like to gain equipment you do could be to do missions for specific corporations or factions that have unique variations of the suit class you like with the specific equipment type you want equipped already...nothing says that all suits of a given faction and race need have the same equipment baked in.
For instance, to use the Manufacturer System and a star-ship analogy
Heavy Assault Cruisers are produced by both Khanid Innovations and Viziam. Let's assume for a minute for the sake of argument that they both produce a Vanguard Suit in the same way.
Khanid Innovations merges Caldari Weapon an Electronics Systems with Amarr Engineering and Metalurgy. A Khanid Vanguard may come equipped with a Rail Rifle or Scrambler Rifle with breach Action and an ECM Burst Generator, Armor Hardeners (simplifying for the sake of illustration), and Reactive Plates.
Viziam on the other hand favors traditional Amarrian Weapons philosophy, but general gears more towards precision, so may have a Scrambler Rifle with Tactical Action, a Damage Modifier, a heat sink, an Armor Repairer, and a Nanohive.
To add to that.
In EVE, the ship has to be manufactured ahead of time, explaining Navy Variants etc.
With clone technology you are 3D printing the suit on demand.
If you imagine Firmware being the software on top of the Dropsuit, you can re-wire the "hull and role" bonuses, and because the materials are 3D printed as well, change the skin/visuals.
The difference is, you set the 3D printing formula before battle, including the Firmware. So this battle you will be using a Creodron Dropsuit with a Federal Marine Firmware override, changing its bonuses from plus to Hybrid, to plus to Armour Repair.
The Federal Marine Firmware is then earned with Gallente Navy standings
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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byte modal
1341
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 14:38:00 -
[112] - Quote
@CCP Rattati:
Ok,so to over-simplify here for me to get my head around something that I can relate to, dropsuits are going to be a generic nebulous thing, that we as players will then apply a software design to so that when "built on-the-fly," we can tweak the physical build of the suit to support whatever role we are looking to provide. If anything, it's the firmware patches that we earn/purchase/whatever that defines the suit being BUILT in our little player suitcase (or whatever we call it) that we take to the field.
I take that to mean the original design of a suit is some generic universal template, where race isn't even a factor anymore. Do I assume all races are using the same generic molding blank? I mean as far as lore goes? So each race will then have a "car" template. Basic 4 wheels, sedan, 6-cyl engine. Everyone in the universe has access to this due to some universal socialist-type agreement that this is everyone's base standard; or over some long time-frame that allowed all suit tech to distill itself down to the most basic common version? Instead of evolving the suit, the suit devolved until reaching that most comment default universal state, while custom firmware evolved instead?
Everyone buys a ps3, but with each software update, your ps3 goes to the next gen capability without really changing the ps3 case. Well, I guess in this example, you have a 3d printer at home just building a slightly modified version of the ps3 with each upgrade, but essentially the ps3 is the base model.
Who designed the default suit? How did enemy races get access to that design?
Please correct me where I am wrong. I am only trying to connect the dots. If I am understanding you right, this is *very* different than what we understand dropsuits to be based on our experience with DUST. That is not necessarily a complaint as it is just pointing out why it is so difficult for us out-of-the-know to grasp. We are trying, but all we really have to to relate to is coming from DUST experience. I think it would help greatly to preface everything with "this is not DUST... strap in, because this is going to be tricky to explain! Forget everything you know because it's no longer relatable." ;) I'm over here trying to conceptually patch your A to my understanding of what A used to be and it's no longer a one-to-one relationship. At least something like that would help break us from the ideas we have already built so many fantasies on since NOVA's announcement ;)
I mean that with respect and love btw.
I think I'm getting closer to getting what is going on. Assuming my post is anywhere near point. Thanks for the check-ins.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28102
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 14:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
byte modal wrote:@CCP Rattati:
Ok,so to over-simplify here for me to get my head around something that I can relate to, dropsuits are going to be a generic nebulous thing, that we as players will then apply a software design to so that when "built on-the-fly," we can tweak the physical build of the suit to support whatever role we are looking to provide. If anything, it's the firmware patches that we earn/purchase/whatever that defines the suit being BUILT in our little player suitcase (or whatever we call it) that we take to the field.
I take that to mean the original design of a suit is some generic universal template, where race isn't even a factor anymore. Do I assume all races are using the same generic molding blank? I mean as far as lore goes? So each race will then have a "car" template. Basic 4 wheels, sedan, 6-cyl engine. Everyone in the universe has access to this due to some universal socialist-type agreement that this is everyone's base standard; or over some long time-frame that allowed all suit tech to distill itself down to the most basic common version? Instead of evolving the suit, the suit devolved until reaching that most comment default universal state, while custom firmware evolved instead?
Everyone buys a ps3, but with each software update, your ps3 goes to the next gen capability without really changing the ps3 case. Well, I guess in this example, you have a 3d printer at home just building a slightly modified version of the ps3 with each upgrade, but essentially the ps3 is the base model.
Who designed the default suit? How did enemy races get access to that design?
Please correct me where I am wrong. I am only trying to connect the dots. If I am understanding you right, this is *very* different than what we understand dropsuits to be based on our experience with DUST. That is not necessarily a complaint as it is just pointing out why it is so difficult for us out-of-the-know to grasp. We are trying, but all we really have to to relate to is coming from DUST experience. I think it would help greatly to preface everything with "this is not DUST... strap in, because this is going to be tricky to explain! Forget everything you know because it's no longer relatable." ;) I'm over here trying to conceptually patch your A to my understanding of what A used to be and it's no longer a one-to-one relationship. At least something like that would help break us from the ideas we have already built so many fantasies on since NOVA's announcement ;)
I mean that with respect and love btw.
I think I'm getting closer to getting what is going on. Assuming my post is anywhere near point. Thanks for the check-ins.
Again, we are trying our best to translate the soul. What makes EVE and DUST so great, and where can we improvise without compromising the essence of New Eden.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9378
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 14:50:00 -
[114] - Quote
You're too focused on "what race". The real question is "who is the base manufacturer?".
Each of the 6 base classes has 1 manufacturer. So the base suits design is based off of that manufacturers design specs. Now, that company may belong to a certain race, so those design specs may resemble that race in general.
So the Core Logistics will probably look Minmatar since Core is a Minmatar company.
If Sisters of EVE made a dropsuit, it would probably look like a Sisters of EVE ship, since they're same manufacturer.
The company may or may not be tied to a specific race, so stop focusing on "what race". Focus on the manufacturersGÇï.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
760
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 14:57:00 -
[115] - Quote
byte modal wrote:@CCP Rattati:
Ok,so to over-simplify here for me to get my head around something that I can relate to, dropsuits are going to be a generic nebulous thing, that we as players will then apply a software design to so that when "built on-the-fly," we can tweak the physical build of the suit to support whatever role we are looking to provide. If anything, it's the firmware patches that we earn/purchase/whatever that defines the suit being BUILT in our little player suitcase (or whatever we call it) that we take to the field.
I take that to mean the original design of a suit is some generic universal template, where race isn't even a factor anymore. Do I assume all races are using the same generic molding blank? I mean as far as lore goes? So each race will then have a "car" template. Basic 4 wheels, sedan, 6-cyl engine. Everyone in the universe has access to this due to some universal socialist-type agreement that this is everyone's base standard; or over some long time-frame that allowed all suit tech to distill itself down to the most basic common version? Instead of evolving the suit, the suit devolved until reaching that most comment default universal state, while custom firmware evolved instead?
Everyone buys a ps3, but with each software update, your ps3 goes to the next gen capability without really changing the ps3 case. Well, I guess in this example, you have a 3d printer at home just building a slightly modified version of the ps3 with each upgrade, but essentially the ps3 is the base model.
Who designed the default suit? How did enemy races get access to that design?
Please correct me where I am wrong. I am only trying to connect the dots. If I am understanding you right, this is *very* different than what we understand dropsuits to be based on our experience with DUST. That is not necessarily a complaint as it is just pointing out why it is so difficult for us out-of-the-know to grasp. We are trying, but all we really have to to relate to is coming from DUST experience. I think it would help greatly to preface everything with "this is not DUST... strap in, because this is going to be tricky to explain! Forget everything you know because it's no longer relatable." ;) I'm over here trying to conceptually patch your A to my understanding of what A used to be and it's no longer a one-to-one relationship. At least something like that would help break us from the ideas we have already built so many fantasies on since NOVA's announcement ;)
I mean that with respect and love btw.
I think I'm getting closer to getting what is going on. Assuming my post is anywhere near point. Thanks for the check-ins.
So, even in DUST our Suit setups were manufactured on-the-fly. Lore-wise not much has changed directly here.
Each manufacturer then creates a suit of a general size and class (Medium Assault is what might have been Assault, Medium Support is what might have been Logistics, Heavy Assault is what might have been Commando, Heavy Support is what might have been Sentinel...etc etc) and fills it with their equipment, and load their firmware to optimize its operation for their purpose. As you get more familiar with the dropsuit, you start being able to replace said pieces of equipment, and eventually gain the ability to flash the firmware to install any other firmware you are able to purchase or otherwise acquire.
Each Manufacturer has their basis within a Race's/Empire's space, and so ones from the same Empire will generally use very similar methodologies and have very similar looking final products along the classic general lines, but each manufacturer builds their suits for their purposes, so would obviously have different equipment loads built-in
Think of it like getting an "APEX" suit. Eventually you gain the ability to replace the pre-fit modules on it. And at high enough "level" you gain the ability to swap out the bonus on said suit to another compatible bonus (like changing from Hybrid Weapon Damage to Armor Repair Effectiveness) |
byte modal
1341
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Posted - 2017.06.02 15:34:00 -
[116] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:You're too focused on "what race". The real question is "who is the base manufacturer?".
Each of the 6 base classes has 1 manufacturer. So the base suits design is based off of that manufacturers design specs. Now, that company may belong to a certain race, so those design specs may resemble that race in general.
So the Core Logistics will probably look Minmatar since Core is a Minmatar company.
If Sisters of EVE made a dropsuit, it would probably look like a Sisters of EVE ship, since they're same manufacturer.
The company may or may not be tied to a specific race, so stop focusing on "what race". Focus on the manufacturersGÇï.
I'm focused on race because EvE.
Everything is race. That's why I am pushing so hard to get a clear declaration of distinction between NOVA and EvE and/or DUST players' ideas of in-game player separations. Much of the confusion in this thread alone is rooted in the player's misconception that NOVA is treating race as the average EvE/DUST player would simply assume. That does not seem to be the case, which is fine. For me, I am now seeing my disconnect in understanding. I just think to highlight such an obvious (after the fact for me, unfortunately) disconnect in understanding would really help bridge the gap of understanding and translation here that some of us are struggling to obtain. I'm really not trying to be difficult, this is just how my brain works. If i'm thinking orange for the last 4 years, then you tell me, 'no. actually, everything is purple." It's going to take a moment to even comprehend what that means to then begin deconstructing all of my knowledge and now assumptions of how orange is actually not orange.
I get your description. Rat's follow-up helped clarify. I just find it odd that only one racial corp will make a base class. I've already written to that in a previous post. It just is what it is and that will be fine in the end. This is a different game. Part of the confusion comes because of things like this though. On one hand we are moving NOVA development to Iceland to be more EvE like. On the other, we aren't using EvE universe basic principles of how races interact with each other, which is the underlying current of the EvE history and existence.
But again, it's a different game. So be it. Cool. It would just help those of us hung up on looking at this from the perspective learned through EvE, DUST, and CCP to clearly remove the blurry lines on some of this. Or to reinforce that major conceptual differnce moving forward. Knowing that earlier on I think would have saved us both a lot of grief stopping me from posting the last 10-20 posts throughout the last week or so ;) I know you (and others) have got to be getting tired of my push-backs by now :)
Ultimately, I'm honestly just trying to break my assumptions from the vacuum that has been this past year. I want to understand and I am getting things more clearly now. I am pushing now to see if any of my questions, or analogies help others similarly confused by all of this. Concepts are not transposing one-to-one. Now I see why. Perhaps others will start to see it as well and we can all ease back onto the same page to move forward.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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byte modal
1341
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Posted - 2017.06.02 15:43:00 -
[117] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
Again, we are trying our best to translate the soul. What makes EVE and DUST so great, and where can we improvise without compromising the essence of New Eden.
I did not see this response. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9379
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Posted - 2017.06.02 15:50:00 -
[118] - Quote
I get you byte. It can be hard to break a deeply engrained perception of how things are from what you're used to.
It's like biting into an apple expecting it to taste like an apple, but it actually tastes like an orange. Not what you were expecting, but you may end up really liking the new taste anyways.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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byte modal
1341
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Posted - 2017.06.02 16:34:00 -
[119] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I get you byte. It can be hard to break a deeply engrained perception of how things are from what you're used to.
It's like biting into an apple expecting it to taste like an apple, but it actually tastes like an orange. Not what you were expecting, but you may end up really liking the new taste anyways.
Yeah, and I'm ok with eating an orange if that's what it is in the end. Disappointments aside, my biggest concern at this point is the translation between these two positions. Which is really why I keep hammering these few, relatively minor points over and over. I hope that others will start to see what I'm now seeing to understand---whether or not they agree still is a different matter, just that at least our base level of understanding will be on equal footing. Biting into an orange, expecting an apple is jarring. My tastes will tell me what is what, once I've had time to process the experience. Being told that an apple will now taste like an orange without a real point of experience to confirm that is quite another thing altogether ;)
To be clear, I am not drinking the Kool-Aid just yet. I am terribly disappointed on a lot of levels. That's another matter. Understanding here is crucial though if there is to be any reasonable communication and expectation from the carry-over player base. That means CCP must draw very clear and distinct lines for as often as they can to begin breaking away from the DUST paradigm. I understand if there are PR or corporate restrictions preventing this. This is the real world, after all. But it would help tremendously.
Fortunately for CCP, the new player base will be just that: new, and without the influence of DUST and the remaining expectations that it created, for the most part at least. How that will sit with DUST vets grazing in other fields waiting for a sign of return is unknown. I seriously doubt all players are active forum or Discord participants. The old guard may not even matter in the end, if a large enough influx of new mercs come out to play. For good or bad, we'll see what comes.
Thanks for entertaining my rants.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Moorian Flav
681
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 18:39:00 -
[120] - Quote
IDK. Since posting last, I did some serious thinking to wrap my head around all the info provided about Nova so far without any context to EVE or DUST. After doing so, I realized what I ended up with sounded like another game I played before. The game had in game class leveling for what you're playing, ability to easily switch between classes, weapon customization, in game weapon leveling, and had Factions you can pledge allegiance to where you can earn Reputation to buy Faction specific gear.
Someone please tell me I am horribly off base here as I shan't even say the game's name I am referring to.
*EDIT: I thought of one more similarity; it's PVP is 6v6 like the Nova demo at Fanfest 2016.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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byte modal
1342
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Posted - 2017.06.02 18:43:00 -
[121] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:IDK. Since posting last, I did some serious thinking to wrap my head around all the info provided about Nova so far without any context to EVE or DUST. After doing so, I realized what I ended up with sounded like another game I played before. The game had in game class leveling for what you're playing, ability to easily switch between classes, weapon customization, in game weapon leveling, and had Factions you can pledge allegiance to where you can earn Reputation to buy Faction specific gear.
Someone please tell me I am horribly off base here as I shan't even say the game's name I am referring to.
L'oh!
/wave playerName
/whisper *kek kek kek.*
*ambush*
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9382
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 18:46:00 -
[122] - Quote
If you're trying to compare it to Destiny...not even close.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
681
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 18:51:00 -
[123] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:If you're trying to compare it to *******...not even close.
Dang it, Pokey! You gone and said it. 
I originally said the game name myself in my original post but before I knew it, I had a long rant about that game.
BTW, I know you say both games are not even close but am I incorrect with the parallels provided?
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9382
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Posted - 2017.06.02 18:56:00 -
[124] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:If you're trying to compare it to Destiny...not even close. Dang it, Pokey! You gone and said it. I originally said the game name myself in my original post but before I knew it, I had a long rant about that game. BTW, I know you say both games are not even close but am I incorrect with the parallels provided?
If you're speaking in very broad terms, sure, but a lot of games would also follow similar threads. Devil is in the details and execution. For example yes Destiny had some character customization, but you couldn't say swap your Titan skills into your Hunter. In Nova you can. That's a very huge difference.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
681
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 19:08:00 -
[125] - Quote
Valid point, Pokey. I also admit the parallels I provided were very broad. All being fair, a couple of those parallels could apply to DUST as well. As said, I am not trying to start anything; I just referenced what came to mind putting the Nova info together without any context to EVE or DUST.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.02 19:12:00 -
[126] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Valid point, Pokey. I also admit the parallels I provided were very broad. All being fair, a couple of those parallels could apply to DUST as well. As said, I am not trying to start anything; I just referenced what came to mind putting the Nova info together.
And honestly ....is that always a bad thing? Even OK games have some great elements. Absolutely nothing wrong with picking up good ideas from various games, combining them, improving them, and making a new title.
For example Nova Progression reminds me of World of Tanks, but with a twist.
The weapon/suit manufacturers in Nova remind me of Borderlands 2.
The weapon fitting In Nova reminds me of MAG but with more options.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
682
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 19:24:00 -
[127] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:And honestly ....is that always a bad thing? Even OK games have some great elements. Absolutely nothing wrong with picking up good ideas from various games, combining them, improving them, and making a new title.
No, unless you hated that type of design (or the affiliated game).
Really, it is hard to judge such things without just seeing it for yourself. Still, I wonder if Nova will end up being too different for me coming from where I have. I am just one person though that obviously does not really adhere to the mainstream. For example, I have never played WoT as I just have no interest as I prefer infantry combat or mixed.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.02 19:27:00 -
[128] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:And honestly ....is that always a bad thing? Even OK games have some great elements. Absolutely nothing wrong with picking up good ideas from various games, combining them, improving them, and making a new title. No, unless you hated that type of design (or the affiliated game). Really, it is hard to judge such things without just seeing it for yourself. Still, I wonder if Nova will end up being too different for me coming from where I have. I am just one person though that obviously does not really adhere to the mainstream. For example, I have never played WoT as I just have no interest as I prefer ground combat or mixed.
Well I do honestly hope you can keep an open mind and give it a fair shot. I know it's difficult to shift your mindset drastically, but I think there is a lot of good in these ideas...just gotta try em out and see how they feel, even if it's different.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
|
Posted - 2017.06.02 22:44:00 -
[129] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:One option for avoiding playing classes you don't like to gain equipment you do could be to do missions for specific corporations or factions that have unique variations of the suit class you like with the specific equipment type you want equipped already...nothing says that all suits of a given faction and race need have the same equipment baked in.
For instance, to use the Manufacturer System and a star-ship analogy
Heavy Assault Cruisers are produced by both Khanid Innovations and Viziam. Let's assume for a minute for the sake of argument that they both produce a Vanguard Suit in the same way.
Khanid Innovations merges Caldari Weapon an Electronics Systems with Amarr Engineering and Metalurgy. A Khanid Vanguard may come equipped with a Rail Rifle or Scrambler Rifle with breach Action and an ECM Burst Generator, Armor Hardeners (simplifying for the sake of illustration), and Reactive Plates.
Viziam on the other hand favors traditional Amarrian Weapons philosophy, but general gears more towards precision, so may have a Scrambler Rifle with Tactical Action, a Damage Modifier, a heat sink, an Armor Repairer, and a Nanohive. To add to that. In EVE, the ship has to be manufactured ahead of time, explaining Navy Variants etc. With clone technology you are 3D printing the suit on demand. If you imagine Firmware being the software on top of the Dropsuit, you can re-wire the "hull and role" bonuses, and because the materials are 3D printed as well, change the skin/visuals. The difference is, you set the 3D printing formula before battle, including the Firmware. So this battle you will be using a Creodron Dropsuit with a Federal Marine Firmware override, changing its bonuses from plus to Hybrid, to plus to Armour Repair. The Federal Marine Firmware is then earned with Gallente Navy standings
Ok. I figured you might try this.
Only problem I have with it, is that the default Brutor Tribe manufactured logistics class is free and the in order to play as Credrone Logistics, I am required to pay for a fireware that is lost after my match.
That part is not cool.
6 dropsuits that are all either Creodrone produced or Brutor Tribe produced, because obviously one armor tanking suit and one shield tanking are needed at each class for new player to learn both styles.
But then you hit T3 and suddenly Ishokune and Khanid Kingdom produced firmware is available that changes... the color of the Creodrone produced dropsuits to have Ishokune colors? and then change the stats and bonuses to be Ishokune?
Even if it also changed the model for the dropsuit, it's still locked behind "end game" content.
Pokey Dravon wrote:
EDIT: Just confirmed with Rattati. Only one manufacturer per class at launch. The system allows for additional manufacturers of the same class to be added if it makes sense in the future. However you also have the added flexibility of Firmware at Tech III that will allow you to (in a way) convert a suit to be configured differently per the specs of the manufacturer that made the firmware.
And here... this just actually confuses things more.
If we are able to add additional manufacturers to classes later, what is the point of firmware!?
Now im thinking firmware simply changes the color and stats of the suit, which is like eve taking a Drake battle cruiser and and giving it Credrone color scheme and bonuses.
if CCP ever suggested that for eve online, the forums over there would go nuclear for months. They'd be smashing monuments all over again.
This entire thing should be done without the idea that the easy way is acceptable. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.02 22:49:00 -
[130] - Quote
Most likely firmware will change the Role Bonuses but not the base stats of the suit.
A new manufacturer of the same class would have different base stats, such as a different tanking style.
Also no, there is not a shield tanked and armor tanked version of each class, only one. Certain ones will be armor tanked, certain ones will be shield.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
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Posted - 2017.06.02 23:03:00 -
[131] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Most likely firmware will change the Role Bonuses but not the base stats of the suit.
A new manufacturer of the same class would have different base stats, such as a different tanking style.
Also no, there is not a shield tanked and armor tanked version of each class, only one. Certain ones will be armor tanked, certain ones will be shield.
Not class. I'm sorry.
We have 2 heavies, 2 mediums, and 2 light frames yes? One heavy is armor tanked, the other is shield tanked. same for mediums and light frames. One armor and one shield tanked
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.02 23:17:00 -
[132] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Most likely firmware will change the Role Bonuses but not the base stats of the suit.
A new manufacturer of the same class would have different base stats, such as a different tanking style.
Also no, there is not a shield tanked and armor tanked version of each class, only one. Certain ones will be armor tanked, certain ones will be shield. Not class. I'm sorry. We have 2 heavies, 2 mediums, and 2 light frames yes? One heavy is armor tanked, the other is shield tanked. same for mediums and light frames. One armor and one shield tanked
Maybe, maybe not. One Heavy is a Vanguard (commando) and the other Sentinel. If the role either of them has playstyle that makes sense for shield tanking and the other for armor....then yes.
I will agree that if we have 6, I'd like to see 3 shield and 3 armor, but I don't think it necessarily needs to be split in each weight class. For example both heavies could be armor, both lights be shield, and the mediums split one each way (just as an example).
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
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Posted - 2017.06.03 12:06:00 -
[133] - Quote
i think we still need generic dropsuits even if they're not in game. We need a base line of stats to reference when we eventually do start adding additional classes and manufacturers.
We the foundation here and now to build on later so we don't end up spending months trying to rebalance stuff later. But that's a problem dust had....
We can't balance a game based on content we don't have yet. This is why I believe ccp should bite the bullet and somehow get generic dropsuits added to the game based on armor and shield tanking, heavy, medium, and light frame dropsuits.
I wouldn't want balance broken because we only had armor tanking heavies at launch and now a shield tanking heavy is released. How would it have been balanced against armor tanking heavies?
Also, adding new classes later would be ok, but what about manufactures of a same class? How would that work? Especially if we've unlocked everything already for that class. Does the new class get added with everything unlocked since its part of the same class?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9386
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Posted - 2017.06.03 14:20:00 -
[134] - Quote
Well you balance it when you impliment it, right?
Also a good example of why a Test Server would be great.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
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Posted - 2017.06.03 15:02:00 -
[135] - Quote
Adding new manufacturers to existing classes though is something that should be designed now.
If i unlock all of vanguard class and then another manufacturer is added to vanguard class... do i get the new manufacture immediately unlocked? what about all modules and bonuses?
Are we progressing through "Classes" or not?
If it's classes, then new content would just be unlocked if its in a class you've already progressed through. That removes any progression through the new content. earning modules and bonuses, because I can;t imagine them being the same.
Manufacturers are a sub category of a class?
Rattati only spoke in broad terms of "classes", but if manufacturers are within a class... it's not going to work in term of progression.
bonuses are unlocked at the class level along with modules used for that class. That easy to do when you only have one manufacturer within a class.
You can say, this is Vanguard and made by Creodrone. So bonuses that help the role are nice, but what about the modules? When Ishokune is added later on within the vanguard class, it's not going to come with plate armor and armor reps... its not an armor tanking manufacturer.
Are we unlocking all the content for both manufacturers since they are both vanguard class? Or are we somehow expected to go and play as the manufacturers variant of Vanguard class and progress through it separately?
What are the rules and guidelines for effect expansion upon initially released content?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9386
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Posted - 2017.06.03 15:10:00 -
[136] - Quote
Well, you level up through the class because it's a single dropsuit. If you added a new dropsuit from a new manufacturer, you're starting with a fresh suit and would need to go through the upgrade process again since it's physically a separate entity. I don't think it would make sense for it to come pretty upgraded just because you have a similar suit leveled up.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
763
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 22:42:00 -
[137] - Quote
Okay, so imagine if you will, you start with a few default APEX suits from various manufacturers (The default ones)
- Core Complexion Logistics
- Kaalakiota Assault
- Ishukone Sentinel
- Imperial Armaments Vanguard
- Duvolle Infiltrator
- Boundless Sharpshooter
Each of these comes equipped with a set of weapons and equipment pre-fit to them, like you'd expect from an APEX suit. Manufacturers started giving these out to boost sales and remain competitive in the now returning market of Dropsuits and Personal weapons for Infomorphs.
However, as you build up ISK and loyalty with a few contractors, more options become available...you can start buying things like:
- Carthum Logistics
- Viziam Assault
- Khanid Innovations Assault
- Roden Vanguard
- Lai Dai Infiltrator
- Thukker Assault
etc etc etc. Manufacturers might not produce a version of every suit, but they'll produce suits that fit their specific needs and strategies...just maybe not at launch (remember how early in DUST we had Amarr Sentinel, Caldari Assault, Minmatar Logistics, and Gallente Scout...same thing).
Each of the suits from different manufacturers may come with different weapons and equipment installed onto it by default, along with that specific manufacturer's firmware pre-installed. You need knowledge with each individual suit or maybe even by class of suit to be able to switch out the equipment without breaking everything. We don't know all the details or even if you start with those sets. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9387
|
Posted - 2017.06.03 23:33:00 -
[138] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Okay, so imagine if you will, you start with a few default APEX suits from various manufacturers (The default ones)
- Core Complexion Logistics
- Kaalakiota Assault
- Ishukone Sentinel
- Imperial Armaments Vanguard
- Duvolle Infiltrator
- Boundless Sharpshooter
Each of these comes equipped with a set of weapons and equipment pre-fit to them, like you'd expect from an APEX suit. Manufacturers started giving these out to boost sales and remain competitive in the now returning market of Dropsuits and Personal weapons for Infomorphs. However, as you build up ISK and loyalty with a few contractors, more options become available...you can start buying things like:
- Carthum Logistics
- Viziam Assault
- Khanid Innovations Assault
- Roden Vanguard
- Lai Dai Infiltrator
- Thukker Assault
etc etc etc. Manufacturers might not produce a version of every suit, but they'll produce suits that fit their specific needs and strategies...just maybe not at launch (remember how early in DUST we had Amarr Sentinel, Caldari Assault, Minmatar Logistics, and Gallente Scout...same thing). Each of the suits from different manufacturers may come with different weapons and equipment installed onto it by default, along with that specific manufacturer's firmware pre-installed. You need knowledge with each individual suit or maybe even by class of suit to be able to switch out the equipment without breaking everything. We don't know all the details or even if you start with those sets.
Thank you. You explained it far better than I was.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Kevin244 Adame
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 03:48:00 -
[139] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Our role in this episode of Theory Workshop, we will be exploring an expansion of a concept present by the developers of CCPGÇÖs Project Nova. Specifically, we will be discussing dropsuit progression and unlocking gear. Please bear in mind that this is simply an expansion of an idea that was presented by the developer and should be considered a starting point for a discussion and not a finalized concept. http://biomassed.net/2017/05/31/theory-workshop-project-nova-dropsuit-progression/Please discuss and provide feedback!
**we have more fun in DUST 514 so there have airforces,trucks,and tanks and many soldiers there are lots wars and place.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
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Posted - 2017.06.04 05:32:00 -
[140] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Okay, so imagine if you will, you start with a few default APEX suits from various manufacturers (The default ones)
- Core Complexion Logistics
- Kaalakiota Assault
- Ishukone Sentinel
- Imperial Armaments Vanguard
- Duvolle Infiltrator
- Boundless Sharpshooter
Each of these comes equipped with a set of weapons and equipment pre-fit to them, like you'd expect from an APEX suit. Manufacturers started giving these out to boost sales and remain competitive in the now returning market of Dropsuits and Personal weapons for Infomorphs. However, as you build up ISK and loyalty with a few contractors, more options become available...you can start buying things like:
- Carthum Logistics
- Viziam Assault
- Khanid Innovations Assault
- Roden Vanguard
- Lai Dai Infiltrator
- Thukker Assault
etc etc etc. Manufacturers might not produce a version of every suit, but they'll produce suits that fit their specific needs and strategies...just maybe not at launch (remember how early in DUST we had Amarr Sentinel, Caldari Assault, Minmatar Logistics, and Gallente Scout...same thing). Each of the suits from different manufacturers may come with different weapons and equipment installed onto it by default, along with that specific manufacturer's firmware pre-installed. You need knowledge with each individual suit or maybe even by class of suit to be able to switch out the equipment without breaking everything. We don't know all the details or even if you start with those sets.
I see how that would work. Except it doesn't make sense to add two corps from the same race as manufacturers of the same class.
You wouldn't add Thukker logistics along side an existing Boundless logistics because it's redundant. Isn't that what the firmware is for?
So the logistics class would look more like Boundless, Carthum, Roden, Lai Dai. And then firmware for Thukker, Creodrone, Ishukone, Viziam. |
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
765
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Posted - 2017.06.04 05:51:00 -
[141] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Okay, so imagine if you will, you start with a few default APEX suits from various manufacturers (The default ones)
- Core Complexion Logistics
- Kaalakiota Assault
- Ishukone Sentinel
- Imperial Armaments Vanguard
- Duvolle Infiltrator
- Boundless Sharpshooter
Each of these comes equipped with a set of weapons and equipment pre-fit to them, like you'd expect from an APEX suit. Manufacturers started giving these out to boost sales and remain competitive in the now returning market of Dropsuits and Personal weapons for Infomorphs. However, as you build up ISK and loyalty with a few contractors, more options become available...you can start buying things like:
- Carthum Logistics
- Viziam Assault
- Khanid Innovations Assault
- Roden Vanguard
- Lai Dai Infiltrator
- Thukker Assault
etc etc etc. Manufacturers might not produce a version of every suit, but they'll produce suits that fit their specific needs and strategies...just maybe not at launch (remember how early in DUST we had Amarr Sentinel, Caldari Assault, Minmatar Logistics, and Gallente Scout...same thing). Each of the suits from different manufacturers may come with different weapons and equipment installed onto it by default, along with that specific manufacturer's firmware pre-installed. You need knowledge with each individual suit or maybe even by class of suit to be able to switch out the equipment without breaking everything. We don't know all the details or even if you start with those sets. I see how that would work. Except it doesn't make sense to add two corps from the same race as manufacturers of the same class. You wouldn't add Thukker logistics along side an existing Boundless logistics because it's redundant. Isn't that what the firmware is for? So the logistics class would look more like Boundless, Carthum, Roden, Lai Dai. And then firmware for Thukker, Creodrone, Ishukone, Viziam.
Think of them as being like the Vx.1 APEX suits, slightly different load outs...Khanid might focus on Caldari or Breach weaponry and Damage reaistance, Carthum on Raw Health and Assault Weaponry, Viziam on Damage Mods (and heat sinks) and tactical weaponry...but you may be right, they may end up being too redundant |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 14:02:00 -
[142] - Quote
That's unnecessary.
The Vx. 1 Apex suits were literally the same dropsuit, color scheme, and stats as the original apex suit, but with a different load out.
If we can eventually swap modules from other suits after progressing through them, there's no need to offer something so similar. The way progression was described by Rattati, we would be able to swap out modules on the suit we want and then choose firmware to give the appropriate bonuses.
Suggesting we add Carthum Vanguard next to a Viziam Vanguard, is redundant if they only differ by load out. It produces an item that item otherwise created by the players through progression.
This I kinda what I've been getting at for a week now. The only logical additions to any class, are those manufacturers whose who belong to a different race. Don't add another Amarr vanguard manufacture if one already exists. Players can basically create those themselves using firmware. We would add caldari vanguard manufacturer instead. The base stats would be different for a Lai Dai vanguard vs a Viziam vanguard and would also have different modules. The bonuses can be swapped out. I also think the base stats should change based on firmware.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 14:27:00 -
[143] - Quote
What's kind of a problem is that Rattati isn't acknowledging that manufacturers design everything differently from each other. Sure four of them may produce a vanguard suit, but they would all be made with tweaked base stats and totally different bonuses.
Globally, they follow the theme of racial affiliation, so Amarr manufacturers will still always produce dropsuits that offer superior armor HP compared to caldari, gallente, minmatar manufacturers.
Rattati wants to move away from simply having Caldari, Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar suits, and focus on the the corps that actually produce the suits. But I'm not sure he realizes is actually like this:
Caldari > Ishokune, Lai Dai, Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi.
Amarr > Khanid Kingdom, Viziam, Carthum, Ammatar
This race establishes a baseline, the manufacturers offer variants of it. No matter what Rattati does, it's always going to be caldari, Amarr, gallente, minmatar at the end of the day. The manufacturers simply produce a variation of a baseline that belongs to a race. I've never understood how Rattati thinks Nova will can only focus on particular manufacturers as if they don't all share a common baseline. Perhaps he's just explains things in way that not clear and he actually does intend to follow the established hierarchy. I just don't get that impression.
I means there's lore to back all this stuff up too. Caldari focus on shields because they don't have the same material resources as gallente when they went independent.
amarr has thick armor because they pillaged resources through minmatar slave labor, which is why minmatar don't have high amounts of armor or shielding. |
byte modal
1342
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 15:27:00 -
[144] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:What's kind of a problem is that Rattati isn't acknowledging that manufacturers design everything differently from each other. Sure four of them may produce a vanguard suit, but they would all be made with tweaked base stats and totally different bonuses. Globally, they follow the theme of racial affiliation, so Amarr manufacturers will still always produce dropsuits that offer superior armor HP compared to caldari, gallente, minmatar manufacturers. Rattati wants to move away from simply having Caldari, Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar suits, and focus on the the corps that actually produce the suits. But I'm not sure he realizes is actually like this: Caldari > Ishokune, Lai Dai, Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi. Amarr > Khanid Kingdom, Viziam, Carthum, Ammatar This race establishes a baseline, the manufacturers offer variants of it. No matter what Rattati does, it's always going to be caldari, Amarr, gallente, minmatar at the end of the day. The manufacturers simply produce a variation of a baseline that belongs to a race. I've never understood how Rattati thinks Nova will can only focus on particular manufacturers as if they don't all share a common baseline. Perhaps he's just explains things in way that not clear and he actually does intend to follow the established hierarchy. I just don't get that impression. I means there was lore to back all this stuff up too at some point. Caldari focus on shields because they don't have the same material resources as gallente when they went independent. amarr has thick armor because they pillaged resources through minmatar slave labor, which is why minmatar don't have high amounts of armor or shielding.
Pretty much the heart of my argument in this thread since day one. Yes, I'm focussed on race... Because race is the root of everything in the EvE universe. No, it's about the corporation! OK, but that corp belongs to a race that has resource and ideological restrictions.
One corp is the only corp to create logis.
That corp belongs the Minmatar Republic.
No one else had the idea of a logi?
The Amarr Empire would just use Minmatar tech? Or vice versa?
You can lean on the corp idea to justify whatever. But it seems like the concept of race (as it exists in EvE) is being written off. Is the idea of returning to Iceland to make NOVA more EvE-like then just a superficial effort? I mean for the visual style of environments and equipment alone?
If so, then just call it what it is. We'll still play the game.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1503
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 16:07:00 -
[145] - Quote
I would honestly go back and do things right and maintain the established format.
If you ask an eve player which ships they like best, you will not hear "I like Boundless Creation ships!"
NO. They'll say "I like Minmatar ships!"
At best when those players reach tech 2 ships they may develop a preference for Bound Creation ships, but its still all minmatar based.
Hell, there's not really any reference to Boundless Creation other than in the description of ships in Eve. Everything is race first, manufacturer second.
Nova would make more sense to anyone that plays both games if the setup was:
Class > Race > Firmware > Racial Corp Manufacturer Specialization/Variant
Vanguard > Caldari > Firmware > Lai Dai, Ishokune, Kaalakiota,
Vanguard > Gallente > Firmware > CreoDron, Duvolle, Roden
Vanguard > Amarr > Firmware > Carthum, Viziam, Khanid Kingdom
Vanguard > Minmatar > Firmware > Core, Boundless, Thukker |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9387
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 16:40:00 -
[146] - Quote
Development made the choice that creating 6 base suits is the number that works best for their development plan.
Working within that limit of 6, please tell me of the 24 different possible suits (4 races and 6 classes) which ones get to be in the game at launch. What would make everyone happy?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1504
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 17:01:00 -
[147] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Development made the choice that creating 6 base suits is the number that works best for their development plan.
Working within that limit of 6, please tell me of the 24 different possible suits (4 races and 6 classes) which ones get to be in the game at launch. What would make everyone happy?
Make new thread pokey and put it to a vote. Then we will see what the people want most. Probably need a description of what each class is according to the devs.
My opinion would be chose the race that best fits/represents the class. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9387
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 17:06:00 -
[148] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Development made the choice that creating 6 base suits is the number that works best for their development plan.
Working within that limit of 6, please tell me of the 24 different possible suits (4 races and 6 classes) which ones get to be in the game at launch. What would make everyone happy? Make new thread pokey and put it to a vote. Then we will see what the people want most. Probably need a description of what each class is according to the devs.
Except my point is....it's going to be the exact same issue either way.
We could take the 6 manufacturers Rattati is planning on, change them all to whatever their racial affiliation is, and you guys still won't be satisfied because it's still effectively the same thing.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
|
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1504
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 17:34:00 -
[149] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Development made the choice that creating 6 base suits is the number that works best for their development plan.
Working within that limit of 6, please tell me of the 24 different possible suits (4 races and 6 classes) which ones get to be in the game at launch. What would make everyone happy? Make new thread pokey and put it to a vote. Then we will see what the people want most. Probably need a description of what each class is according to the devs. Except my point is....it's going to be the exact same issue either way. We could take the 6 manufacturers Rattati is planning on, change them all to whatever their racial affiliation is, and you guys still won't be satisfied because it's still effectively the same thing.
It's not though, because you run into a problem later on with progression.
If you start with manufactures, then there's no specialization later. The manufacturers ARE the specialization/variants in Eve.
So we would be excluding the base line for having that specialization. Then try to explain the reason for firmware.
Eve Online: Race > Manufacturer/specialization/Tech 2
Nova according to devs: Manufacturer > ??? (firmware?)
This means we start with the specialized variants we would normally find in Eve, and then... Specialize further?
The way CCP wants to do this:
Vanguard > Manufacturer (Minmatar) > Firmware (Changes the manufacturer)
Later on we add another manufacture:
Vanguard > Manufacturer (Amarr) > Firmware (Changes the manufacturer)
So we have this situation where we are choosing one of the manufacturers as the "baseline" and then flipping the bonuses associated with the manufacturer using firmware. Except the manufacturers all have different base stats too (In Eve). So changing the firmware would be changing the entire thing thing; base stats, bonuses, color scheme.
If CCP doesn't change base stats, then firmware doesnt work because we wouldn't actually be getting a true representation of what the manufacturer would actually produce.
So if firmware changed base stats, color scheme, and bonuses. That would work, but then Firmware wouldn't be providing true "end game" content because it really just a variant of something we already have, but now have to pay for each time we want to use it because it's a "consumable."
If firmware is meant to provide "strong bonuses" then i would imagine them as being "better" than the "baseline" bonuses we started with. Otherwise, why pay to use them? This then makes the variants the firmware gives us as better than the default manufacturer we start with, which is like saying a particular manufacture is inferior to its competitors.
So in the example i provided earlier, i've protected each manufacturer as being equal but different in terms of power., by using the racial variant as the baseline. "Manufactures" firmware are improved variants of the baseline.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9387
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 19:14:00 -
[150] - Quote
I apologize if I wasn't clear in my write-up. Firmware is meant to be a superior option compared to the default bonuses that come with the suit.
Now I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to describe but let's see if I can put it in terms of what I understand and compare to what you're getting at.
EVE Online
Race > Role/Hull Bonuses (Tech I) > Specialization (Tech II) > Faction
Where Faction is a modified version of Tech II, with improved base stats and bonuses
NOVA
Base Manufacturer > Role/Frame Bonuses (Tech I) > Specialization Bonuses (Tech II) > Manufacturer Firmware
Where Firmware modifies Tech II, improving potentially both Tech I and Tech II bonuses
Now, modifying base stats is not off the table but Rattati was trying to avoid changing "physical" things like slots and whatnot since it's really meant to be a software upgrade, not a hardware upgrade. Lore aside, they're trying to lean away from altering the base stats.
So as far as I understand it, if the FIremware is actually an upgrade (or diagonal-grade?) where it's an improved and altered version of the base bonuses, I still feel this provides ample tools to customize in a way that is similar to EVE. Since you're modifying the Frame and Specialization bonuses, you could get drastically different variations in how the suit's final stats will look.
For example:
Base Suit
Frame Bonus: +Armor Plate HP
Specialization Bonus: +Armor Hardener Bonuses
Base Suit + Firmware
Frame Bonus: +Armor Repairer Bonus
Specialization Bonus: +Heavy Weapon Damage
You're going to fit and play those suits very differently and as such will have drastically different (and improved) end stats as a result.
I feel like the progression between the two games is really not all that different, it's just starting with a manufacturer tied to a particular race and then continuing on in a similar fashion. Is your primary concern that the Firmware isn't going to change the base stats, even if it drastically will alter the stats after fitting?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17208
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 19:33:00 -
[151] - Quote
Maybe I am not understanding your argument. I think you are saying that the races were the base, with the manufacturer becoming the variants?
And that you currently believe that the manufacturer cannot be both base AND variant?
If I misunderstood, please correct me.
If however I got the gist of what you are saying, then I am going to have to disagree. History is full of people combining things or adding just a bit to them to do something new. People constantly use various electronic hardware and create new software to change the intended use. Most recently, people took the NES Classic and made all sorts of classic games playable on it, even non Nintendo games.
That hack happened despite Nintendo not intending it. I don't see why it can't be the same for Nova. The suits are just hardware. Some base stats will be innate to hardware, with software optimizing those. Other stats will be all software. Changing software would remove the software only bonuses (provided the new software doesn't have the same or better), and while that new software doesn't necessarily optimize the hardware, it also can't take away the innate nature of the hardware. In the end you will have something not quite what it was, but not entirely different either.
Edit: Pokey probably said it better.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9387
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 19:43:00 -
[152] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
And that you currently believe that the manufacturer cannot be both base AND variant?
I think that might be the disconnect. I don't see why (functionally) they can't do both.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1505
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 19:49:00 -
[153] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Maybe I am not understanding your argument. I think you are saying that the races were the base, with the manufacturer becoming the variants?
And that you currently believe that the manufacturer cannot be both base AND variant?
If I misunderstood, please correct me.
If however I got the gist of what you are saying, then I am going to have to disagree. History is full of people combining things or adding just a bit to them to do something new. People constantly use various electronic hardware and create new software to change the intended use. Most recently, people took the NES Classic and made all sorts of classic games playable on it, even non Nintendo games.
That hack happened despite Nintendo not intending it. I don't see why it can't be the same for Nova. The suits are just hardware. Some base stats will be innate to hardware, with software optimizing those. Other stats will be all software. Changing software would remove the software only bonuses (provided the new software doesn't have the same or better), and while that new software doesn't necessarily optimize the hardware, it also can't take away the innate nature of the hardware. In the end you will have something not quite what it was, but not entirely different either.
Edit: Pokey probably said it better.
I'm saying America holds competitions for new weapons contracts. The Army has certain design specifications in mind. Manufacturers then produce weapons based on those design specs.
Another manufacturer may later go and create "improvements" to the design accepted by the U.S. Army and sell it on the market. But it's still provided the same basic functions laid out in the design specs, or it can even look the same but do different things. But it was based on the original design specs.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9388
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 19:56:00 -
[154] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:
I'm saying America holds competitions for new weapons contracts. The Army has certain design specifications in mind. Manufacturers then produce weapons based on those design specs.
Another manufacturer may later go and create "improvements" to the design accepted by the U.S. Army and sell it on the market. But it's still provided the same basic functions laid out in the design specs, or it can even look the same but do different things. But it was based on the original design specs.
Right, so in Nova, the initial manufacturer produces a weapon/suit based on that criteria.
Another manufacturer may later for and create "improvements" (firmware) to the design accepted by the original buyer and then sell it on the market. It can look the same but do different things, but it is still based on the original design specs.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1505
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 20:04:00 -
[155] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
And that you currently believe that the manufacturer cannot be both base AND variant?
I think that might be the disconnect. I don't see why (functionally) they can't do both.
by definition you can not be a source and variation. A variation is a mutation of the source.
So either one manufacture is mysteriously the source, and the other are variations of it
or
The is a source design spec somewhere and the manufacturers all built variations of that.
The problem is that there's no explanation. so somebody over at CCP would need to go back and say....
Brutor Tribe built the original assault suit used by Minmatar ground forces back in whatever year when they were commission by Republic Fleet Command.
THEN what you've been going on about, would make sense. But since it was never done in Eve online, it's a bit mysterious to be seeing it now.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9389
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 20:08:00 -
[156] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:[quote=One Eyed King]
And that you currently believe that the manufacturer cannot be both base AND variant?
Brutor Tribe built the original assault suit used by Minmatar ground forces back in whatever year when they were commission by Republic Fleet Command. And then other manufacturers copied and improved it.
 Is that all it would take to make you feel better about it?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1505
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 20:14:00 -
[157] - Quote
Part of the problem was Pokey initially describe the progression as
Starting class (civilian) > Tech 1 (gear bonus) > Tech 2 (role bonus) > Tech 3 (firmware)
that's different from:
NOVA
Base Manufacturer > Role/Frame Bonuses (Tech I) > Specialization Bonuses (Tech II) > Manufacturer Firmware
Where Firmware modifies Tech II, improving potentially both Tech I and Tech II bonuses
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9389
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 20:25:00 -
[158] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Part of the problem was Pokey initially describe the progression as
Starting class (civilian) > Tech 1 (gear bonus) > Tech 2 (role bonus) > Tech 3 (firmware)
that's different from:
NOVA
Base Manufacturer > Role/Frame Bonuses (Tech I) > Specialization Bonuses (Tech II) > Manufacturer Firmware
Where Firmware modifies Tech II, improving potentially both Tech I and Tech II bonuses
well....they're different words for the same thing, but I apologize if I caused confusion.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Dead Man's Game
Preatoriani
765
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 20:32:00 -
[159] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:That's unnecessary.
The Vx. 1 Apex suits were literally the same dropsuit, color scheme, and stats as the original apex suit, but with a different load out.
If we can eventually swap modules from other suits after progressing through them, there's no need to offer something so similar. The way progression was described by Rattati, we would be able to swap out modules on the suit we want and then choose firmware to give the appropriate bonuses.
Suggesting we add Carthum Vanguard next to a Viziam Vanguard, is redundant if they only differ by load out. It produces an item that item otherwise created by the players through progression.
This I kinda what I've been getting at for a week now. The only logical additions to any class, are those manufacturers whose who belong to a different race. Don't add another Amarr vanguard manufacture if one already exists. Players can basically create those themselves using firmware. We would add caldari vanguard manufacturer instead. The base stats would be different for a Lai Dai vanguard vs a Viziam vanguard and would also have different modules. The bonuses can be swapped out. I also think the base stats should change based on firmware.
The Vx.1 analogy is insufficient I agree...maybe we could look at eve, the difference between a Khanid and VIziam Vanugard suit could be more like the difference between a Sacrilege and Zealot class Heavy Assault Cruisers, both bonuses and base stats are slightly different along with their equipment load-outs being different |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1505
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 20:49:00 -
[160] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:That's unnecessary.
The Vx. 1 Apex suits were literally the same dropsuit, color scheme, and stats as the original apex suit, but with a different load out.
If we can eventually swap modules from other suits after progressing through them, there's no need to offer something so similar. The way progression was described by Rattati, we would be able to swap out modules on the suit we want and then choose firmware to give the appropriate bonuses.
Suggesting we add Carthum Vanguard next to a Viziam Vanguard, is redundant if they only differ by load out. It produces an item that item otherwise created by the players through progression.
This I kinda what I've been getting at for a week now. The only logical additions to any class, are those manufacturers whose who belong to a different race. Don't add another Amarr vanguard manufacture if one already exists. Players can basically create those themselves using firmware. We would add caldari vanguard manufacturer instead. The base stats would be different for a Lai Dai vanguard vs a Viziam vanguard and would also have different modules. The bonuses can be swapped out. I also think the base stats should change based on firmware.
The Vx.1 analogy is insufficient I agree...maybe we could look at eve, the difference between a Khanid and VIziam Vanugard suit could be more like the difference between a Sacrilege and Zealot class Heavy Assault Cruisers, both bonuses and base stats are slightly different along with their equipment load-outs being different
I think that's what the firmware is for. But i've also been reading that firmware may or may not changes base stats. I think the base stats should change personally because they come from different manufacturers.
But i'm getting the feeling firmware is basically taking a computer... and swapping the operating system from Mac to Linux to Windows.
It's easier to just change and balance bonuses instead of the base stats. There should be a control variable somewhere for reference.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9389
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:13:00 -
[161] - Quote
To use your analogy,
Firmware is like switching operating systems. Changing the software isn't going to physically turn your PC into a Mac.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17209
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:17:00 -
[162] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:To use your analogy,
Firmware is like switching operating systems. Changing the software isn't going to physically turn your PC into a Mac.
Haken Tosch would be an excellent Nova Alt I think.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1930
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:25:00 -
[163] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:To use your analogy,
Firmware is like switching operating systems. Changing the software isn't going to physically turn your PC into a Mac.
So firmware changes are going to give you a different UI, but do exactly the same thing?
And one will skip version 9, for no apparent reason. |
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17209
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:38:00 -
[164] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:To use your analogy,
Firmware is like switching operating systems. Changing the software isn't going to physically turn your PC into a Mac. So firmware changes are going to give you a different UI, but do exactly the same thing? And one will skip version 9, for no apparent reason.
How else would they be able to make sure you have just the ads you need just when you need it.
Start getting shot by a merc from your 6, BOOM, "Have you tried our new firmware that alerts you to someone sneaking up behind you? It is absolutely free!*"
*Provided you allow us access to all your contacts, GPS, and conversation history with Jara.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9389
|
Posted - 2017.06.04 21:47:00 -
[165] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:To use your analogy,
Firmware is like switching operating systems. Changing the software isn't going to physically turn your PC into a Mac. So firmware changes are going to give you a different UI, but do exactly the same thing? And one will skip version 9, for no apparent reason.
Don't read too much into it lol
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1505
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 20:51:00 -
[166] - Quote
I had a moment of clarity today.
When Eve players think of corp manufacturers, the ones that are brought up the most often are the associated with Tech 2 ships.
I forgot that there are many "lesser" corps in Eve.
Using the lesser corps as the manufacturer of the baseline dropsuits protects the corps most people will know. I think it's the most elegant solution that provides what the devs want, and also "makes sense."
NPC Corporations
Any of the corps listed under "Manufacturing and Industry" would be suitable selection for the "civilian" dropsuit models that can used as the baseline.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9395
|
Posted - 2017.06.05 21:57:00 -
[167] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:I had a moment of clarity today. When Eve players think of corp manufacturers, the ones that are brought up the most often are the associated with Tech 2 ships. I forgot that there are many "lesser" corps in Eve. Using the lesser corps as the manufacturer of the baseline dropsuits protects the corps most people will know. I think it's the most elegant solution that provides what the devs want, and also "makes sense." NPC CorporationsAny of the corps listed under "Manufacturing and Industry" would be suitable selection for the "civilian" dropsuit models that can used as the baseline.
I feel feel dirty because I agree with you.
Making the base suits be created by industry corps (since that's likely where a lot of this tech originated) actually makes a lot of sense. Then the bigger corps can create high end firmware that improves the upgraded suit further.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Shotty GoBang
Nos Nothi
4911
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 02:52:00 -
[168] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:I had a moment of clarity today. When Eve players think of corp manufacturers, the ones that are brought up the most often are the associated with Tech 2 ships. I forgot that there are many "lesser" corps in Eve. Using the lesser corps as the manufacturer of the baseline dropsuits protects the corps most people will know. I think it's the most elegant solution that provides what the devs want, and also "makes sense." NPC CorporationsAny of the corps listed under "Manufacturing and Industry" would be suitable selection for the "civilian" dropsuit models that can used as the baseline.
Clever!
o7
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
498
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 03:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
The grind while long was nice, kept me interested getting skill points for that next unlock.
I dunno, personally I always liked passive SP, felt good returning after a break or trip to find some sense of progression still happening, I found this unique, nothing similar in other shooters. I never saw FotM as a problem arising from saving SP specifically, rather from unfortunate balancing issues between the suits or modules on new releases or updates enticing players to all go to the FotM.
I also loved that proto suits were better version of cheap suits, sure, there was proto stomping, but again, I would say matchmaking and open faucet PC were maybe more to blame, the economy concept was great, things costing you and if you died in a proto suit it could likely set you back.
I remember my corp held a competition with prizes and all at one time, I faced a corp member heavily armed with officer weapons and all, I lost in part because I only had like 6 Balac's ARs and ended up outgunned, it sucked that apart from loosing the competition I spent my cache of items and ISK, but it was awesome.
What I mean is that I liked that there were more powerful suits and weapons than entry level ones. Just my opinion.
I don't know if the new system will be better maybe it will, but I'll miss the old ways.
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Cyrus Grevare
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
499
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 03:42:00 -
[170] - Quote
Am I beating a dead horse?
I'm beating a dead horse ain't I... 
Sorry, was reading through the thread and just had the opinion and remembrance in like page 3, I revisit these threads only occasionally nowadays
Hope the game's coming along nicely
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9401
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 03:48:00 -
[171] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:Am I beating a dead horse? I'm beating a dead horse ain't I... Sorry, was reading through the thread and just had the opinion and remembrance in like page 3, I revisit these threads only occasionally nowadays Hope the game's coming along nicely
For the record, Passive SP (out of battle) is not off the table. Only Passive SP in battle (to discourage AFKing -- you actually have to fight to get active SP). So it's not a for sure thing, but out of battle passive SP might still be a thing in Nova.
Rattati talked about in the discord. (I really need to do a new compilation post)
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1507
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 08:55:00 -
[172] - Quote
I think passive sp was important. It was a huge reason players would login, even after weeks or months of not playing. They login see a bunch of sp, unlock something new, play a few matches.
This meant that ccp could always have a stream of returning players. Any opportunity to get players coming back is great. It's another chance to make an addict out of them. Maybe they'll find a group of players they really enjoy playing with. Maybe there's been balance changes that make the game more playable for them.
Usually, people only come back when there's new content. DLC, an event or something usually will cause a brief surge in active players. They'll try things out for a bit, then maybe leave again. But it's a chance for ccp to show improvements, or the community to reclaim a player that left.
Passive SP keeps players coming back regularly. That's a good thing for everyone, but it's up to ccp and this community to make the most of that and keep players from wanting to leave in the first place. |
Lady Hellfirer
EVE'S Best
61
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 18:56:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:All Im gonna say is theres no such thing as a Civilian dropsuit lol. where does it not exist, in your mind?
I remember fighting you in a battle. Do you remember me Rattati? I'm sorry I keep killing you at your teams spawn point. I hate that the redline was moved up closer on that map. Wish we could have played together just once.
I remember you! You was laying at me feet with your color slowly fading.
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Lady Hellfirer
EVE'S Best
61
|
Posted - 2017.06.06 18:58:00 -
[174] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:I had a moment of clarity today. When Eve players think of corp manufacturers, the ones that are brought up the most often are the associated with Tech 2 ships. I forgot that there are many "lesser" corps in Eve. Using the lesser corps as the manufacturer of the baseline dropsuits protects the corps most people will know. I think it's the most elegant solution that provides what the devs want, and also "makes sense." NPC CorporationsAny of the corps listed under "Manufacturing and Industry" would be suitable selection for the "civilian" dropsuit models that can used as the baseline. I remember when we scouted together it was lots of fun. Hope we can do it on Nova! Clever!
I remember you! You was laying at me feet with your color slowly fading.
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Russel Moralles
Klandatu
252
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 01:34:00 -
[175] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:That's unnecessary.
The Vx. 1 Apex suits were literally the same dropsuit, color scheme, and stats as the original apex suit, but with a different load out.
If we can eventually swap modules from other suits after progressing through them, there's no need to offer something so similar. The way progression was described by Rattati, we would be able to swap out modules on the suit we want and then choose firmware to give the appropriate bonuses.
Suggesting we add Carthum Vanguard next to a Viziam Vanguard, is redundant if they only differ by load out. It produces an item that item otherwise created by the players through progression.
This I kinda what I've been getting at for a week now. The only logical additions to any class, are those manufacturers whose who belong to a different race. Don't add another Amarr vanguard manufacture if one already exists. Players can basically create those themselves using firmware. We would add caldari vanguard manufacturer instead. The base stats would be different for a Lai Dai vanguard vs a Viziam vanguard and would also have different modules. The bonuses can be swapped out. I also think the base stats should change based on firmware.
The Vx.1 analogy is insufficient I agree...maybe we could look at eve, the difference between a Khanid and VIziam Vanugard suit could be more like the difference between a Sacrilege and Zealot class Heavy Assault Cruisers, both bonuses and base stats are slightly different along with their equipment load-outs being different I think that's what the firmware is for. But i've also been reading that firmware may or may not changes base stats. I think the base stats should change personally because they come from different manufacturers. But i'm getting the feeling firmware is basically taking a computer... and swapping the operating system from Mac to Linux to Windows. It's easier to just change and balance bonuses instead of the base stats. There should be a control variable somewhere for reference.
If I understand this correctly.
Its like this.
I bought a computer with win xp home ed. dualcore 2gb ram built graphics.
I upgraded it to a quadcore and 4gb ram.
Then i upgraded again with a graphics card.
Then upgraded to xp ult. to use all the 4gb ram coz home ed only uses 2gb.
Now i want to buy a pc.
Dang.
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DiablosMajora
463
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Posted - 2017.06.07 15:33:00 -
[176] - Quote
Ultimately, I think this thread can be boiled down to thus:
Theorycrafting is all well and good but you'll never get a true feel for the idea unless it's been thoroughly tested ;D
Prepare your angus
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Moorian Flav
683
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 16:15:00 -
[177] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Ultimately, I think this thread can be boiled down to thus:
Theorycrafting is all well and good but you'll never get a true feel for the idea unless it's been thoroughly tested ;D
Yeah. I think I may be done theorizing until I see a trailer. After all, Rattati does seem to have a charted course he is on. After all, he has rarely ever steered us wrong (except for maybe the whole super jumping fiasco  ).
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9413
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 16:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Ultimately, I think this thread can be boiled down to thus:
Theorycrafting is all well and good but you'll never get a true feel for the idea unless it's been thoroughly tested ;D
But I still got you all to have a good discussion about it which is great feedback
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
685
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 16:51:00 -
[179] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:But I still got you all to have a good discussion about it which is great feedback
"Good" and "great" are subjective.
JK, Pokey. Even though this thread may have went off the rails a few times, it was better than just discussing other games while waiting for Nova.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9413
|
Posted - 2017.06.07 16:55:00 -
[180] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:But I still got you all to have a good discussion about it which is great feedback "Good" and "great" are subjective. JK, Pokey. Even though this thread may have went off the rails a few times, it was better than just discussing other games while waiting for Nova.
I often use descriptors without caution, for I too enjoy living dangerously.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
690
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Posted - 2017.06.08 15:21:00 -
[181] - Quote
@ Pokey
Where's this updated compiled list from Rattati you referred to in past posts?
Come on, man. Do your job. I'm doing mine.
In all seriousness, discussion has seemed to stagnate again recently so it would be good to have something/anything new to comment about.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9415
|
Posted - 2017.06.08 15:43:00 -
[182] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:@ Pokey Where's this updated compiled list from Rattati you referred to in past posts? Come on, man. Do your job. I'm doing mine. In all seriousness, discussion has seemed to stagnate again recently so it would be good to have something/anything new to comment about.
Wrote it last night. It's under internal review and should hopefully be posted tonight.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Moorian Flav
690
|
Posted - 2017.06.08 17:18:00 -
[183] - Quote
"Internal review"? You sure you're not a CCP employee, Pokey?
Well, I am sure a lot are waiting to see it.
BTW, thinking over our discussion in this thread, I really missed a chance to use a phrase that just came to mind. To help end out this thread, I am going to use it now.
DUSTiny.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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byte modal
1352
|
Posted - 2017.06.08 17:37:00 -
[184] - Quote
bwahahaha.
kitten bacon taco (nom)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9418
|
Posted - 2017.06.08 17:46:00 -
[185] - Quote
Moorian Flav wrote:"Internal review"? You sure you're not a CCP employee, Pokey? Well, I am sure a lot are waiting to see it. BTW, thinking over our discussion in this thread, I really missed a chance to use a phrase that just came to mind. To help end out this thread, I am going to use it now. DUSTiny.
Haha internal Biomassed review. I can't spell worth a **** so I have people proofread for me.
Also lulz at Dustiny.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17219
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Posted - 2017.06.08 21:46:00 -
[186] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Moorian Flav wrote:"Internal review"? You sure you're not a CCP employee, Pokey? Well, I am sure a lot are waiting to see it. BTW, thinking over our discussion in this thread, I really missed a chance to use a phrase that just came to mind. To help end out this thread, I am going to use it now. DUSTiny. Haha internal Biomassed review. I can't spell worth a **** so I have people proofread for me. Also lulz at Dustiny.
I have always felt that people who spell everything correctly simply aren't creative enough to come up with alternative spellings. They are just "in the box" thinkers.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9421
|
Posted - 2017.06.09 03:09:00 -
[187] - Quote
New update is up
http://biomassed.net/2017/06/09/project-nova-ongoing-updates-may-20th-june-2nd/
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
314
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Posted - 2017.06.13 17:39:00 -
[188] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Our role in this episode of Theory Workshop, we will be exploring an expansion of a concept present by the developers of CCPGÇÖs Project Nova. Specifically, we will be discussing dropsuit progression and unlocking gear. Please bear in mind that this is simply an expansion of an idea that was presented by the developer and should be considered a starting point for a discussion and not a finalized concept. http://biomassed.net/2017/05/31/theory-workshop-project-nova-dropsuit-progression/Please discuss and provide feedback!
Forcing players to play a certain class to unlock a certain module would be detrimental to the game in my opinion, as we saw in dust, some modules became key components of fits, forcing someone to play heavy to unlock the largest armor plates, or forcing someone to play calmando to unlock myo's or forcing someone to play min scout to unlock kincats is not the road I want to see Nova take. It sounds like a lot of long and boring grinding, but I also don't want Nova to keep the same "yea you gotta play for 3 weeks to unlock this proto module because it cost 5mil sp." That would also be equally as bad. I understand they're wanting to create a very role based game but restricting customization until you've played 300 hours is senseless, all modules should at least be usable in civilian/militia form until actually unlocked through the dropsuit, that's my compromise.
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9435
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 20:02:00 -
[189] - Quote
There are no "civilian/militia" modules so that compromise would not work. There are not modules tiers in general.
So it's not so much that you're going to be held back by not unlocking other classes, more so you won't have certain variations/side-grades of those modules.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1511
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 20:14:00 -
[190] - Quote
did CCP say that the slots are locked within a class?
what's keeping us from customizing classes with modules they already have access to?
I imagine that once you reach tech 1, you swap out modules with "alternate" modules. They just may or may not be available to trade between classes.
but what the current suggestion by ccp actually does, it prevent fotm from happening. No one will be able to to quickly bandwagon onto a broken fit. This minimizes the damage done by imbalances and gives ccp the time it needs to balance modules/fits
Dust 514 had a problem with this, where anytime a new fit was found to be OP, anyone and everyone could simply respec and claim the new fotm fit. This caused an overwhelm imbalance while CCP tried to correct things.
Overall, being forced to play classes before trading modules is good and is actually no worse than any other FPS. Truth be told, there aren't mant games that even let you swap skills between classes in the first place, so the fact CCP still wants to be able to at all means they just want what's best for the games overall health. |
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9435
|
Posted - 2017.06.13 21:29:00 -
[191] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:did CCP say that the slots are locked within a class?
what's keeping us from customizing classes with modules they already have access to?
I imagine that once you reach tech 1, you swap out modules with "alternate" modules. They just may or may not be available to trade between classes.
but what the current suggestion by ccp actually does, it prevent fotm from happening. No one will be able to to quickly bandwagon onto a broken fit. This minimizes the damage done by imbalances and gives ccp the time it needs to balance modules/fits
Dust 514 had a problem with this, where anytime a new fit was found to be OP, anyone and everyone could simply respec and claim the new fotm fit. This caused an overwhelm imbalance while CCP tried to correct things.
Overall, being forced to play classes before trading modules is good and is actually no worse than any other FPS. Truth be told, there aren't mant games that even let you swap skills between classes in the first place, so the fact CCP still wants to be able to at all means they just want what's best for the games overall health.
A good question. I asked something similar and it was a "we are not sure yet."
Personally, you absolutely should be allowed to customize your suit with modules it comes with at Tech I. Tech II would be cross class customization.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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