Swarms are an assistant AV.

If your referring to a forge gun you are still mistaken.

What's really sickening is that the same swarmer would have wrecked a shield tank in relatively short order, assuming all else remained the same (no evasive action, etc).

And Swarms are supposed to be STRONGER against armor !!1!11!!11!

Yes they are, but armor is also supposed to be *enduring* where shields are supposed to have to GTFO if they start taking fire.

That said this completely fucks the 'waves of opportunity' crap that was spouted, I almost want to return to 1.6 tanks with improvements to shield recharge and most of the current changes to AV.

Ok, obviously it's broken and needs fixed and I'm not trying to defend it, but have you tried:

Similarly tiered forgeguns? What about Proto Min Commando w/ swarms? Rail/Missile Tanks? Teamwork?

Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily.

An Active Tank is Tanking type that focuses on active player imput, choosing to activate modules when they are needed for brief instances of powerful module effects.

Passive Tanking is using modules that apply static or passive buffs to a vehicle to allow it to perform at a stable level all the time.

E.G- An Active tanked Madrugar used Hardeners, a passive tanked Madrugar uses these Heavy Repair Units.

It's quite the opposite in EVE

Active tanks are tanks that rep damage to negate enemy damage for long enough for you to kill them.
Passive tanks are buffer fits that are supposed to last long enough for you to kill the enemy through attrition.

Well technically a pistol is what you call a sidearm because it on your side. I'm a marine and doesn't make any sense to call a weapon a assistant weapon.

As for when weapons are used. Yes you are right, if used correctly the weapon should be devastating as each make and model of every modern weapon is designed for certain purposes.

But my question revolved around "assistant weapons"

So you would classify as rifle as a "assistant weapon" given its a light weapon. how does a rifle assist?

Edit:

I'm not trying to make you feel uncomfortable, I'm just trying to understand your logic and what your trying to say.

He's just sitting there taking no evasive action what so ever.. you don't think that's a little op?

He's just sitting there taking no evasive action what so ever.. you don't think that's a little op?

Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily.

Not op at all. HE set up his Maddy to deal with the sustained DPS of swarms and to an extent, forges. He is very vulnerable to alpha damage. 3 shots from a double damage modded militia railgun, 3 RE, or some PE would destroy that fit. Whereas a setup with 2 hardeners and a plate would easily handle that same railgun and RE and PE, but would suffer against those swarms because of the inability to rep back that health.

It isn't that repper tanks are OP, it's that the video doesn't show all possible tank counters.

I say this every time and I will say it again, fck that noise. There is absolutely no reason AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank, at least on the same tier. Here's the kicker about the video and what you said, that tank ain't any where near being proto. Sure it's likely got complex reps but it's still a standard tank being shot at by proto swarms.

Again, to anyone that says AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank up to it's tier, f u c k that noise. It should be a challenge for standard AV to take out a standard tank with basic or enhanced modules or but not fcking impossible and proto AV should be able to kick that same tank around like a tin can. Of course that last part is for when proto AV can be balanced against proto vehicles at which point it'll be as hard to properly fit complex modules on a std tank as it is to fit them on a std suit now.

Though I can agree that as it stands now with only std vehicles it should take effort to solo them with proto AV but standard AV should still actually stand a chance against a fcking standard vehicle.

Also in regards to tanks specifically, the "it's a tank" argument only works against weapons not designed to kill it; it does not and will never work against weapons specifically designed to kill it.

Of course that last part is for when proto AV can be balanced against proto vehicles

And buffing swarms will just create a new set of problems. The real problem is the actual design of Av in this game. All Av basically follows a simple slow firing huge burst design. This works in a lot of games because vehicles are free and losing one is of no consequence. In a game like dust there's a cost to running vehicles.

lets take a step back to dropships because they really expound on this problem. A python on a good day can last 3 forge blasts before dying. Now vs one forge this means as long as the python gtfos at first hit he can escape before the forger can kill him. He is largely unkillable unless stupid. Now lets say that we decide to buff forges because we have no good counter to dropships. Now it only takes 2 shots. If the pilot is smart with flying he will still be able to escape but a forger has an excellent chance to kill.

unfortunately this isn't always 1v1. Anything a drop ship pilot meets 2 forgers he's instantly dead without any chance to do anything. This doesn't create good game play especially when the risk in cost is to the tune of 400k vs potentially 2 free suits.

same thing can happen to tanks by having this style of weapon we run the risk of purely alpha striking tanks when more than one swarmer is around just for the cost of having Av be able to solo.(which I'm actually for)

the solution to this is to finally get of the pot and **** and ccp figure out what they want for vehicles. Either they become cheap as dirt glass canons or Av is designed in a manner with high dos, high rof, low dmg per shot weapons where a vehicle will certainly die faster to multiple Av but because the shots are spread over many than just one he can at least react and try to escape, not just be instantly blapped by the first shot.

However Thumb eventually the player base will develop to the point where every half ways intelligent players skills into at least OP 5 of AV...... now at that point every tank beneath proto tier is invalidated and made pointless....is would that be good balance?

Where you AV stays at 300K ISK but my hulls are back over 1M ISK, and those are the only competitive hulls......

How would you use an Assault Rifle vs a tank? Light weapons typically don't work as well vs vehicles.

Or were you trying to make some sideways statement regarding the class of weaponry instead of the relative targets?

AV weaponry runs on a different tier than antipersonel. To my knowledge, there are no sidearm AV weapons, hence those are the lowest tier. it would be like having a gun that fires wide area flashbangs in infantry combat, that do little damage. VS a heavy, that damage is moot, but vs a scout, that would be devastating.

All i'm really seeing here is that it takes a double damage modded railgun, pretty much the pinnacle of anti-vehicle weaponry, to kill a triple rep madrugar.

I have yet to see a maddy with any amount of hardeners and plates handle a double damage modded railgun 'with ease' maybe once those damage mods have gone on cooldown and the railgun is reloading.

Put that Swarm Launcher on Minmando (skill lv5) with 3 dmg mods and prof 5 and that Maddy doesn't stand a chance. I know from experience.

Okay let me clarify what I am asking...

First off you mentioned "Light weaponry that any class can equip. That's like asking where it says a scrambler pistol is an assistant weapon. It says sidearm, but not assistant." end quote.

So, you said light weapons are considered assistant weapons. So that includes rifles, mass drivers, swarm launchers, and basically anything that is light weaponry. So you were mentioning weapons not relevant to the targets, I just complied to it given the comment of sidearms and light weapons.

But based on your response you want to focus on anti-vehicle weapons, which in that case I don't know why you brought up sidearms.



What I'm asking is how does one label a weapon an "assistant weapon"? Understand the reason we call weapons "weapons" is that they are designed to kill not to assist kills. That why they call it a weapon.


Further more How does AV run on different tiers than anti-personal? We have tiers of milita, basic, advance, and proto.

Edit: Also keep in mind, whats the purpose of having a assist weapons if another weapon is designed to kill the target better? You'd be better of having two Anti Vehicle weapons than 1 anti vehicle weapon and 1 assistant weapon.

I say this every time and I will say it again, fck that noise. There is absolutely no reason AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank, at least on the same tier. Here's the kicker about the video and what you said, that tank ain't any where near being proto. Sure it's likely got complex reps but it's still a standard tank being shot at by proto swarms.

Again, to anyone that says AV shouldn't be able to solo a tank up to it's tier, f u c k that noise. It should be a challenge for standard AV to take out a standard tank with basic or enhanced modules or but not fcking impossible and proto AV should be able to kick that same tank around like a tin can. Of course that last part is for when proto AV can be balanced against proto vehicles at which point it'll be as hard to properly fit complex modules on a std tank as it is to fit them on a std suit now.

Though I can agree that as it stands now with only std vehicles it should take effort to solo them with proto AV but standard AV should still actually stand a chance against a fcking standard vehicle.

Also in regards to tanks specifically, the "it's a tank" argument only works against weapons not designed to kill it; it does not and will never work against weapons specifically designed to kill it.

All i'm really seeing here is that it takes a double damage modded railgun, pretty much the pinnacle of anti-vehicle weaponry, to kill a triple rep madrugar.

I have yet to see a maddy with any amount of hardeners and plates handle a double damage modded railgun 'with ease' maybe once those damage mods have gone on cooldown and the railgun is reloading.