I'd like to add onto my previous post.

If we go eve route and you say it should take multiple people to kill a tank we need to significantly increase cost and sp.
Frigates are light suits
Cruisers are medium suits
Battleships are heavy suits

So tanks are titans.

They should cost several million isk per hull alone, and exponentially more sp.

They do now

It can be done now

I use a proto breach FG to 1 shot tanks

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

No its impossible number wise, especially with a breach FG which takes forever to charge up, unless you are high up, perched unseen by the tank, even then.... look at its damage, add 60% if you hit the tanks back if I remember correctly... maybe base milita tanks...

And I laugh at the DS that underestimates me and pays for it by losing his DS.

More than once a DS will wait for me to fire my three swarms, and then when I start my reload they come in for a strafing pass...

But DAT RELOAD...before they know it there are 2-3 more swarms in the air after them, and then they're flying for their life. Literally.

Is that you Doc?

I'll say it again, the balance is fine.

The outside is SUPPOSED to be dominated by vehicles.

The only problem is player stupidity and a refusal to put up with their own vehicles. You can't fix stupid, you can only treat the symptoms.

End matches faster, don't wreck the game's balance because of stupid entitled assault players who want to be able to do everything with equal efficiency.

Ok, obviously it's broken and needs fixed and I'm not trying to defend it, but have you tried:

Similarly tiered forgeguns? What about Proto Min Commando w/ swarms? Rail/Missile Tanks? Teamwork?

Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily.

I wonder if anyone realizes that swarms aren't meant to solo a tank...

I wonder if anyone realizes that Madrugars are Gallente vehicles, which translates to them being able to armor rep efficiently.

I wonder if anyone realizes that a triple rep Madrugar actually takes teamwork to take down.

I wonder if anyone realizes that any buffer to AV will give DS/ADS pilots an even bigger shaft.

I wonder when we'll get our God damned Amarr tanks and DS/ADS so we can armor tank properly.

I wonder...

People keep spewing the same garbage over and over again about "O man, I'm so hurtbutt about that one-seater tank being able to take out my guy and others when my Light AV Swarm Launcher can't even dent him! It should take TWO(2) people in a tank to operate it!"

I don't even need to tank to tell you how much of a dumbass excuse that is. This is a universe where a single pilot commands a Titan. I'm pretty damn sure a single tank driver should be operate and fire his tank, seeing as how we memory now. Any form of AV should require multiple (more than one (which means at least 2 (two))) people to take down any vehicle that isn't a LAV. This is not modern day where it takes 3-4 people to man a single tank. This is not reality. That's like saying my Dropship should take two people to fly because attack helicopters have 2 people; one to fly/shoot missiles and one to man the belly gun.

If anything, the rest of the racial tanks need to be brought in to make it more of a change-up where you'll get more tank v. tank battles. My dropship is a medium vehicle. An RDV is a medium vehicle. Why does my dropship have 1/3 the total HP of an RDV? Why are tanks easier to pop than an RDV? Nobody has thought around those lines. An RDV has more eHP than any tank and it's a medium vehicle. That means tanks should have around ~8,000 eHP or more since it's a heavy vehicle. Meaning another rework... disregard this last segment because It's more of an idea than anything.

the rep tank..built to withstand stupid idiots with swarm launchers. this is pretty spot on.


also its even dumber to completely disregard av and say its not a threat to tanks. thats why ppl lose their vehicle in the first place.

i would just love to have more ppl ignore me thinking im not an actual threat in game. because that means ill just have an easier time killing them as they would be completely caught of guard shitting their pants not knowing how to respond the second i start dishing out the damage...

the rep build is fairly effective in the right hands though. but hardener cycling or stacked hardeners is more of a problem than anything else. with the rep tank. i take in that full damage. only to rep it all up the moment they have to stop firing and reload. or let their blaster turret cool down. any sort of big strike including a well placed orbital can kill this tank really fast.

with stack hardeners however.i could quite possible survive a direct orbital strike.may be less likely now though with that nerf to hardeners. but still holds true in them shrugging off just about everything.

passive tanking like the rep tank. has been designed to withstand the multiple attacks over time. in other words. bug bites wont work on this type of fit. which means ull have to use alpha strikes to take it down which works really well against the rep tank fit. or any sort of weapon that has a higher dps than the vehicles rep rate. which can be done quite easily.

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

The math has been done and only a Sica can be OHK by a forge gun. This requires a maxed ou Breach hitting the tank in the sweet spot, no hardeners or additional shields or armor.

That sounds so ******* cool but I don't see anyway to implement that. I'm pretty sure the 60+ metric ton tank has a lock on the hatch. lol

So Takihiro, I'm calling you out, give me an answer.

Why should it take multiple AV units to destroy a single player in a tank? What reason do you have that permits a single person to surpass more than multiplemof hos designated counter?

Because its a lazy counter that requires no foresight, planning, ISK investment, SP sink or geographical advantage. You're also on the wrong part of the map for killing things. Stick to the city.

Basically, you dont deserve to kill a tank.

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

I can't hit a damn thing using moving blasters :(

Ok, obviously it's broken and needs fixed and I'm not trying to defend it, but have you tried:

Similarly tiered forgeguns? What about Proto Min Commando w/ swarms? Rail/Missile Tanks? Teamwork?

Unrelated to the issue at hand, in all honestly, I'm really against a single player, no matter how dedicated to AV, being able to take on a fully proto-ed tank easily. Eventually yes, a dedicated AV should kill it eventually if not engaged or fled from, but not easily.

Dude, seriously, go eat your paste and let the grown-ups talk.

Because its a lazy counter that requires no foresight, planning, ISK investment, SP sink or geographical advantage. You're also on the wrong part of the map for killing things. Stick to the city.

Basically, you dont deserve to kill a tank.

Interesting,

That guy usually plays in a tank I should probably start with my AV fit isn't foresight?

The other team has a tank, I will need to deploy nearby, preferably behind said tank, with my AV fit probably find some cover in case the engagment goes pear shaped for one of numerous reasons. Isn't planning?

40,000 ISK per suit isn't an ISK investment?

25,000,000 SP just for a decked out AV isn't an SP Sink?

Above the turrets angle of attack (high ground) or behind a tank (flanking) isn't a geographical advantage?

So umm what was that?

So Takihiro, I'm calling you out, give me an answer.

Why should it take multiple AV units to destroy a single player in a tank? What reason do you have that permits a single person to surpass more than multiplemof hos designated counter?

No, 40k is not an investment. I switch to 78k suits when im ready to STOP losing money.


Tanks cost half a million isk each if they are worth a damn, and there isn't a single form of AV out there that requires 25 million SP by itself.

40k suits will NEVER destroy a Tank alon, it needs at least a full proto squad and some OB or an another Tank.
A tank will ALWAYS kill at least 20 ennemy before dying, making it destroy way more iSK than it cost.
And a tank is CHEAP. Under Proto level AV can't do anything, so it cost the hell to buy some AV.