No, 40k is not an investment. I switch to 78k suits when im ready to STOP losing money.


Tanks cost half a million isk each if they are worth a damn, and there isn't a single form of AV out there that requires 25 million SP by itself.

Also let me add something else Monkey, AV can be produced anytime anywhere with no foresight. You get raped by a tank, you switch to AV instantly upon death or if you're at a supply depot.

The same convenience is not true for tanks. If your team is redlined by an opposing group of tanks it is incredibly difficult to call new tanks in without them being shot down. If they ARE called in, they will be so far into the back of the redline they are are completely barricaded into a losing fight.

Saying "oh herp derp there's a tank ima switch to forge" is not foresight. It's not planning. And even if you did plan for it in advance that isn't going to be any less than just changing to it after you recognize the threat.

The same convenience is not true for tanks. If your team is redlined by an opposing group of tanks it is incredibly difficult to call new tanks in without them being shot down. If they ARE called in, they will be so far into the back of the redline they are are completely barricaded into a losing fight.

Dude (Monkey MAC) saw you in a game today, you were against me. (As a Gunship)
WE DESTROYED A TRIPLE REP MADRUGAR !!!!!!!!
We were like 10 agiant him and an another tnak but we destroyed it !!!!!

I was personnally with Plasma Cannon and Proto Swarm (Commando) shooting contiunally on him with extra fast reload and unlimited ammo. (near to ammo installation)
There was 2 Forge Gun (Breach).
2 blue dot Swarms.
A Gunlogi with rail gun.
2 Scout with Remotes.
And an Orbital Strike.

And i finally got him with a critical hit from my Plasma Cannon. +150

But well....we sync 10 players and Orbital to destroy a tank....So we lose the objective, got crushed by infantry and your dropship and 1 min later his tank was back while it took us 10 min to destroy it.....

Seems TOTALLY legit.
1 Tank Vs 10 ******* player, seems logic.
It made us lose the game while we dominated you and your team the whole game.....

Also let me add something else Monkey, AV can be produced anytime anywhere with no foresight. You get raped by a tank, you switch to AV instantly upon death or if you're at a supply depot.

The same convenience is not true for tanks. If your team is redlined by an opposing group of tanks it is incredibly difficult to call new tanks in without them being shot down. If they ARE called in, they will be so far into the back of the redline they are are completely barricaded into a losing fight.

Saying "oh herp derp there's a tank ima switch to forge" is not foresight. It's not planning. And even if you did plan for it in advance that isn't going to be any less than just changing to it after you recognize the threat.

AV is priced and balanced at the luxury cost of being involved in a fight you have no business being a part of. You want to kill tanks, get a ******* tank or stop whining.

Yeah saw that, was pretty darn good, though I would like to point out he did just sit there and take it, it took alot more effort for you to get me (I crashed in the end) and I was in a rather flimsy dropship by comparison.

I rather enjoyed that match I believe we won, by a single clone!
Still lost 700,000 ISK, but worth it when I now know my team of newberries beat a 10 stacked squad and I went positive.

AV is priced and balanced at the luxury cost of being involved in a fight you have no business being a part of. You want to kill tanks, get a ******* tank or stop whining.

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

Aah and so the truth comes out, it should require a tank to kill a tank?
Where is the balance in that, please explain it to me

After all if you are being redlined by a squad of tanks its game over right, you should just leave the match!

Yep it was damn close !!!! (A single one )
I've been the last killed, the one who made us loss
BUT i've maded a Triple kill just before so...and got revived

In fact he wasn't "sitting here" our scouts simply blocked all the way out by 10 explosive remotes while our tank was blocking the other way We blocked him.

Well....Have you ever try to get down a Dropship with a Plasma Cannon ? It's pretty Hard.
And before playing with AV i was shooting you with Laser Rifle and Mass driver to make you shoot me instead of my teamates, they pass trought and then take the objectives

Lost something about 400.000 ISK, was playing ADV but died 8 time.
Hmm in fact we were not in a squad, i was playing solo to train me (didn't play since a months) we were also totally blueberries. Seems like we were just randomely set up to destroy this tank.
Certainely Amarr gods who decided this destiny.
(The 2 forge gunner was Amarr sentinel and our scouts were Amarr, i was Amarr....Funny fact )

Thats not such a bad statement as it sounds.

AV should have its place tank busting but seriously...... Tanks are designed to blow up other tanks....... we have weapons 10x the size of those your carry, with understandably greater fire power......otherwise our weapons would be carried on foot......and not turret or vehicle mounted.....

IMO a Tank should be an expensive high SP sink unit that is the highest a ground based vehicle user can escalate the fight to....... by this I mean the most durable ground vehicle and the best equipped to deal with other vehicles.......BUT NOT INFANTRY unless you sacrifice fitting capacity on small turrets and have crewmen.

Oh by no means am I saying a tank shouldn't deal with a tank, that's like saying a HMG heavy shouldn't kill a HMG heavy, it just shouldn't be a requirement, you should be able to use othe methods.

Personally I have no quarrell with a large turret killing infantry provided, it's not nearly as effective against infantry as it currently is.
If I may reference titanfall which has done the whole infantry vs vehicle thing rather well.

You can solo a titan as pilot, though a variety of methods, my favourite the lightning gun inflictsnearly a third of an atlases health in 1 shot, but it requires getting enough time to charge the shot, at the same time, titans will carve through grunts like there is no tommorow, but the mobile and fast pilots provide a relative challenge.

But consequently a good pilot will never or very rarely die while wrecking the other team......

Aah and so the truth comes out, it should require a tank to kill a tank?
Where is the balance in that, please explain it to me

After all if you are being redlined by a squad of tanks its game over right, you should just leave the match!

Yes, it should NORMALLY require a tank to kill a tank because they are of equal power and brought into the game under equal restrictions. Deployment time, cost, danger of popping due to enemy rails, etc.

It is for this very reason that tanks ruling the outside makes sense. They impose a greater threat than infantry and live in the open plains and mountains of Dust 514. Infantry dwell in the urban areas where vehicle movement is restricted. Dropships that dwell in such an area are also prone to an easy death from AV.

When you leave the city they become the far greater threat you know currently because that is their domain. If we had it your way, they would be weak on the outside and worthless on the inside. There would be no need to ever field a tank and you would have one game mode -- Infantry 514.

Tanks were not meant to be the equal of infantry, they were meant to be greater than infantry. What equalizes them is where they are allowed to operate, and if you wish to dispatch a tank as an infantry on the tank's turf you should very well need to do so with another tank or with greater effort than the tank has to put out to kill you.

You would not go swimming in the ocean and expect to slay a great white shark without putting out more effort than the shark does. What we have here is a problem of infantry entitlement.

If you've been redlined, the match should take no longer than a minute to end. It is bad game design that it does not.

On the outside, we have Tanks 514 and on the inside we have Infantry 514. They are very distinguished and fun games. Your solution would effectively make tanks the equals of infantry, and kill Tanks 514. The tank game does not work if infantry are as great a threat as tanks are. The entire dynamic breaks.

Unfortunately "outside " equals 90% of the playable game space and similar spaces between null cannon capture points. There are 3 large sockets which approximate little islands of "city", which incidentally all have large roads right through the middle through which tanks can joyride. Your inside/outside world only exists in a very tenuous state.

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

Not a dev, just a player.

Someone said one AV guy shouldn't be able to solo a tank. Sure I see that. And I can scare one of those guys away in my proAV fit, maybe. But when it's three tanks, you need at least 6 guys to deploy in AV gear, to scare them away unless AV unites against one tank and instapops one at a time.

In a pub, that's never going to happen.

Every pub game I have played in maps where a tank can truly affect the battle, is won by the team with madrepper superiority. The balance is way better in non tanky maps right now. Sadly I don't see a lot of tank v tank battles either which is probably what tankers desire.

This is a difficult problem and I know we have spent a lot of time on this internally

1) KDR of tanker vs non-tanker
2) ISK efficiency vs elite tanker comparable to elite assault player
3a) proto AV vs proto tanker
3b) proto AV vs standard tanker
3c) average AV needed to rapidly destroy a tank without tank recourse (2v1, 3v1, 4v1)
4) measuring the best tankers who are in the spotlight (very few) versus normal tankers who don't so so well
5) efficiency against infantry
6) nades and re's requre non slayer specialization, so AV is pretty inaccessible to majority of players.

Instead of more tankers v nontankers, what are some simple ways to balance this?

And I'm firmly against this position. A proto swarmer with 4/5 proficiency should be able to solo any Tank. Tanks should not be immune from a player that's specifically designed to fight tanks. The "teamwork" argument is so tiresome I can barely stand it. Having a tank soak up the attention of 3-4 or more ineffectual A/Vers completely unbalances the game. If only tanks can battle tanks, then that's TANK 514 and not something I'm interested in at all.

Maybe we should have an infantry only game. I bet the vast majority would opt into it, leaving only tanker on tanker matches for you. I wonder how much you'll enjoy that, without any foot soldiers to slaughter?

40,000 ISK per suit isn't an ISK investment?

25,000,000 SP just for a decked out AV isn't an SP Sink?

I'm at work and on my phone so I'll make this quick. Also have not read every response so I may repeat someone.

I don't believe that a single player should be able to kill a tank in the heat of a battle to the point where the tank will take damage and move along, rep, and reengage. That's the intent to my understanding how they are intended to be. It is laughable that a tank can sit there and just eat swarms like that. How you fix that?...well I don't have time for that ATM. I had proto swarms very early on, once I went forge, I've never gone back.

3 complex damage mods, 3 proficiency proto swarms vs 2 complex 1 enhanced heavy repair with level 3 in repair proficiency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7AwrgVwNA&feature=youtu.be